Bendis on NEW AVENGERS

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Steven R. Stahl

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Nov 2, 2004, 5:17:15 PM11/2/04
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In WIZARD's interview with Brian Michael Bendis (#158, pp. 38-44),
some material seems to indicate immaturity and a preference for
dialogue over other story elements.

I've seen Bendis invoke the name "Stan Lee" and refer to AVENGERS #16
several times now in defense of "Avengers Disassembled" and NEW
AVENGERS. It's an unthinking response to criticism, and when he cites
Spider-Woman, Luke Cage, and the Sentry as characters "I have a
personal affinity for," it's evident his perspective is that of a fan
fiction writer who wants to see stories about a group of heroes *he*
likes, versus the perspective of a writer who looks at a group of
heroes, sees plot hooks in their personalities and situations, and
writes stories based on them. NEW AVENGERS appears to be fan fiction
that will be published by Marvel.

When the interviewer points out that Wolverine is overexposed,
Bendis's response is "Well, the funny thing is, to me, he isn't
overexposed, 'cuz I don't read every g--damn book out there." Bendis
goes on to say there's a surprising reason Wolverine is on the team,
and besides, Spider-Man and Wolverine make a great comedy team. The
implication is that there will be pages and pages of exchanges between
Spider-Man and Wolverine that Bendis thinks are amusing. I've seen
that style before, in AVENGERS: INFINITY (Moondragon and Tigra) and
WITCHES: banter and arguing that the writer may think is amusing, but
otherwise only uses up space. Bendis makes things worse by saying that
Spider-Man is uncomfortable around Wolverine. So, Spider-Man, a
natural loner, is in a group against his nature, even when that group
has someone who makes him "insanely uncomfortable." That's believable?
Saying that Spider-Man and Cage will find that being part ofa group
works is just as silly.

The Sentry's rep as a sort of Superman clone is reason enough not to
use him in stories.

Cage is only superhuman when compared to normal humans; any number of
paranormals in the M.U. could kill him in a minute. Either Bendis is
misinterpreting his powers, or Cage won't be going up against foes and
devices commonly seen in "classic" AVENGERS.

It's interesting to see how few of the New Avengers can project energy
or use other forms of paranormal energy. AVENGERS #500-#502 have been
notably devoid of characters using their powers in fights; the fight
scenes have been notable for their simple, generic natures. One can
reasonably infer that Bendis wants to avoid having to write fight
scenes involving paranormal powers in opposition, which raises the
question of what the pages of AVENGERS #503 will have in them.

It's fine to have the Bendis interview out there, if only because it
confirms cynics' views regarding NEW AVENGERS.

SRS

jay

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Nov 2, 2004, 11:34:32 PM11/2/04
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On 2 Nov 2004 14:17:15 -0800, syns...@eudoramail.com (Steven R.
Stahl) wrote:

> I've seen Bendis invoke the name "Stan Lee" and refer to AVENGERS
> #16 several times now in defense of "Avengers Disassembled" and
> NEW AVENGERS. It's an unthinking response to criticism, and when
> he cites Spider-Woman, Luke Cage, and the Sentry as characters "I
> have a personal affinity for," it's evident his perspective is that of a fan
> fiction writer who wants to see stories about a group of heroes *he*
> likes, versus the perspective of a writer who looks at a group of
> heroes, sees plot hooks in their personalities and situations, and
> writes stories based on them.

The premise of the Avengers was "the Marvel version of the Justice
League." The characters had no internal reason to form a team, no
reason to remain together, and no mission. If Bendis wants to change
the line-up of such an awkward beast to one he's more comfortable
with, there's zero rationale in the history of the Avengers to bash
him for this, beyond simply not liking his choices vs. those which
writers have made in the past.

> Bendis makes things worse by saying that Spider-Man is
> uncomfortable around Wolverine. So, Spider-Man, a natural loner,
> is in a group against his nature, even when that group has
> someone who makes him "insanely uncomfortable." That's
> believable?

About as believable as the constantly bickering characters in the
second Avengers line-up remaining together with one another when
they had nothing in common, didn 't like each other, and are staying
in a team which has no mission to which they can subscribe as a
means of rationalizing staying together.

> Cage is only superhuman when compared to normal humans; any
> number of paranormals in the M.U. could kill him in a minute. Either
> Bendis is misinterpreting his powers, or Cage won't be going up
> against foes and devices commonly seen in "classic" AVENGERS.

Or he will be, will be prima faciea outmatched, and will have to be
incredibly brave and clever, something in the best tradition of
classic Marvel.

> It's interesting to see how few of the New Avengers can project
> energy or use other forms of paranormal energy.

Not really.

Shawn H

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Nov 3, 2004, 11:26:41 AM11/3/04
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Steven R. Stahl <syns...@eudoramail.com> wrote:
: In WIZARD's interview with Brian Michael Bendis (#158, pp. 38-44),

: some material seems to indicate immaturity and a preference for
: dialogue over other story elements.

: I've seen Bendis invoke the name "Stan Lee" and refer to AVENGERS #16
: several times now in defense of "Avengers Disassembled" and NEW
: AVENGERS. It's an unthinking response to criticism, and when he cites
: Spider-Woman, Luke Cage, and the Sentry as characters "I have a
: personal affinity for," it's evident his perspective is that of a fan
: fiction writer who wants to see stories about a group of heroes *he*
: likes, versus the perspective of a writer who looks at a group of
: heroes, sees plot hooks in their personalities and situations, and
: writes stories based on them. NEW AVENGERS appears to be fan fiction
: that will be published by Marvel.

He may just be more honest and upfront in admitting his preferences than
those professionals you allude to, who all have their biases as well.

: When the interviewer points out that Wolverine is overexposed,


: Bendis's response is "Well, the funny thing is, to me, he isn't
: overexposed, 'cuz I don't read every g--damn book out there." Bendis

Yeah, that's bullshit. I'm like "Were we talking about you? No, we're
talking about the readers, who have more than enough venues to find
Wolverine in, thank you." Plus, Bendis' Logan is crap-tastic and
simplistic.

: Spider-Man is uncomfortable around Wolverine. So, Spider-Man, a


: natural loner, is in a group against his nature, even when that group
: has someone who makes him "insanely uncomfortable." That's believable?
: Saying that Spider-Man and Cage will find that being part ofa group
: works is just as silly.

Luke has had allies for years, so he should know about group dynamics
already. He's been in the FF for goodness sake, not a venue that's easy
on the emotions! I do think it's refreshing for Spider-man to take this
tack, but I wonder if Bendis is going to be able to differentiate
Ultimate Peter from the mainstream one? Or the two Wolverines for that
matter?

: The Sentry's rep as a sort of Superman clone is reason enough not to
: use him in stories.

That's a hollow criticism. Avengers alone has an established history of
Superman clones as villains: Hyperion, Wonder Man, Count Nefaria, Power
Man, etc. Why not try one out as a hero? Sentry's a very interesting
insertion into Marvel History, worthy of a story or two still I'm sure.

: Cage is only superhuman when compared to normal humans; any number of


: paranormals in the M.U. could kill him in a minute. Either Bendis is
: misinterpreting his powers, or Cage won't be going up against foes and
: devices commonly seen in "classic" AVENGERS.

All Wasp does is shrink and fire mild electric shocks, and you're worried
about an invulnerable super-strong man?

: It's interesting to see how few of the New Avengers can project energy


: or use other forms of paranormal energy. AVENGERS #500-#502 have been
: notably devoid of characters using their powers in fights; the fight
: scenes have been notable for their simple, generic natures. One can
: reasonably infer that Bendis wants to avoid having to write fight
: scenes involving paranormal powers in opposition, which raises the
: question of what the pages of AVENGERS #503 will have in them.

People trying to reason with Mad Wanda, I'd imagine. And yes, there does
seem to be a sort of aversion to force blasts from Bendis; the only place
I can think of where he lets characters use their energy competently is
when the Ultimate X-men visit Peter Parker. Jessica Drew seemed almost
to apologize for shocking people in her Alias cameo, and Jessica Jones
has a hard time maintaining her powers of flight except when in a rage.

Her attack on Scarlet Witch while under mind control was nothing more
than one big punch, either, just as many of the events in Dissassembled
have unfolded. Bendis is all about the magnificence of one deadly blow
from Thor, with little thought put into the strategy of deploying more
than such magical brute force against foes.

: It's fine to have the Bendis interview out there, if only because it


: confirms cynics' views regarding NEW AVENGERS.

Sorry to seem so schizophrenic in my responses, but I really agree
strongly with some of your points while thinking others are way off base.

Shawn

Nathan P. Mahney

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Nov 3, 2004, 12:32:37 PM11/3/04
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Shawn H <shill#@fas.harvard.edu> wrote in message
news:cmb0s1$88b$1...@us23.unix.fas.harvard.edu...

With regards to Spider-Man, I'm not worried. He's had MU Peter appear in
Daredevil and The Pulse, and in none of those appearances has he acted like
Ultimate Peter. I've liked the Bendis rendition of MU Peter so much (as
well as his handling of the Daily Bugle crowd) that I'd love for Bendis to
get a shot at Amazing Spider-Man when JMS is done.

--
- Nathan P. Mahney -

Writing:
http://free.hostdepartment.com/n/npmahney/index.html
The Whole Story Comic Reviews:
http://free.hostdepartment.com/n/npmahney/ReviewIndex.html
Gamebook Scenic Solutions:
http://free.hostdepartment.com/n/npmahney/SSIndex.html

Jon J. Yeager

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Nov 3, 2004, 12:42:31 PM11/3/04
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"Steven R. Stahl" <syns...@eudoramail.com> wrote in message
news:a3d98b1d.04110...@posting.google.com...

> In WIZARD's interview with Brian Michael Bendis (#158, pp. 38-44),
> some material seems to indicate immaturity and a preference for
> dialogue over other story elements.
>
> I've seen Bendis invoke the name "Stan Lee" and refer to AVENGERS #16
> several times now in defense of "Avengers Disassembled" and NEW
> AVENGERS. It's an unthinking response to criticism, and when he cites
> Spider-Woman, Luke Cage, and the Sentry as characters "I have a
> personal affinity for," it's evident his perspective is that of a fan
> fiction writer who wants to see stories about a group of heroes *he*
> likes, versus the perspective of a writer who looks at a group of
> heroes, sees plot hooks in their personalities and situations, and
> writes stories based on them. NEW AVENGERS appears to be fan fiction
> that will be published by Marvel.

All fiction is fan fiction.

PERIOD.

All these writers were once young fans. Getting published doesn't make them
any less so. And each new creative team re-fashions the Avengers line-up to
their own personal liking.

There are some people out there that, for whatever reason, don't much care
for Hawkeye. But Busiek loves him and he will be a part of anything Busiek
touches in the Marvel U. No one complains about it, because Kurt is so
goddamn good at what he does. It made SENSE for Hawkeye to jump from
Avengers to Thunderbolts when Kurt made the same jump.

My problem isn't with Bendis creating a team of characters he'll have the
most fun with. It's that he and Brevoort (or was it Quesada? I forget)
clearly implied in a Newsarama interview pre-Disassembled that they were
going to JLA the Avengers. They did not understand why Earth's Mightiest
Heroes were not Earth's Mightiest Heroes. They specifically cited the JLA as
a team that had all the big guns aboard, and that this was what they wanted
to do.

The rumors that they were going to JLA the Avengers were launched by
THEMSELVES.

Spiderwoman... Earth's Mightiest Hero?

Replacing Thor with Luke Cage is supposed to be a step up in the might
department?

THIS is what bothers me about the line-up. That it was formed under false
pretenses, and no one at Marvel ever explained why they changed their minds
along the way. The promise was that the Avengers would, for the first time
ever, represent EARTH'S MIGHTIEST HEROES.

The cream of the crop. The big guns that have long running solo titles.

What Bendis ended up putting together is no different than any writer before
him : his personal favorite characters, with even less rhyme or reason than
his predecessors had for assembling theirs.

Jon J. Yeager
"Shave Tony Stark!"


Jon J. Yeager

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Nov 3, 2004, 12:46:00 PM11/3/04
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I don't suppose this interview is online anywhere?

"Steven R. Stahl" <syns...@eudoramail.com> wrote in message
news:a3d98b1d.04110...@posting.google.com...

Shawn H

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Nov 3, 2004, 1:45:22 PM11/3/04
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Jon J. Yeager <nos...@please.com> wrote:

: All fiction is fan fiction.

: PERIOD.

Strangely, I agree totally. I wouldn't want a non-fan writing this stuff
(a la Identity Crisis).

: touches in the Marvel U. No one complains about it, because Kurt is so

: goddamn good at what he does. It made SENSE for Hawkeye to jump from
: Avengers to Thunderbolts when Kurt made the same jump.

I don't know if your timing is right on there. Hadn't Busiek left T-bolts
while he was still on Avengers?

: The rumors that they were going to JLA the Avengers were launched by
: THEMSELVES.

: Spiderwoman... Earth's Mightiest Hero?

: Replacing Thor with Luke Cage is supposed to be a step up in the might
: department?

: THIS is what bothers me about the line-up. That it was formed under false
: pretenses, and no one at Marvel ever explained why they changed their minds
: along the way. The promise was that the Avengers would, for the first time
: ever, represent EARTH'S MIGHTIEST HEROES.

Wasn't that the premise of Kurt's version, too? Big Guns only, and much
more in the wake of the JLA of the time?

: What Bendis ended up putting together is no different than any writer before

: him : his personal favorite characters, with even less rhyme or reason than
: his predecessors had for assembling theirs.

Looks like.

Shawn


Jon J. Yeager

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Nov 3, 2004, 3:51:01 PM11/3/04
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"Shawn H" <shill#@fas.harvard.edu> wrote in message
news:cmb902$auq$5...@us23.unix.fas.harvard.edu...

> Jon J. Yeager <nos...@please.com> wrote:
>
> : All fiction is fan fiction.
>
> : PERIOD.
>
> Strangely, I agree totally. I wouldn't want a non-fan writing this stuff
> (a la Identity Crisis).

But I really enjoy Identity Crisis.

Finally, a book that doesn't talk down to me as a comic book reader.

> : touches in the Marvel U. No one complains about it, because Kurt is so
> : goddamn good at what he does. It made SENSE for Hawkeye to jump from
> : Avengers to Thunderbolts when Kurt made the same jump.
>
> I don't know if your timing is right on there. Hadn't Busiek left T-bolts
> while he was still on Avengers?

Dammit, Shawn - you know what I mean! ;)

> : THIS is what bothers me about the line-up. That it was formed under
> false
> : pretenses, and no one at Marvel ever explained why they changed their
> minds
> : along the way. The promise was that the Avengers would, for the first
> time
> : ever, represent EARTH'S MIGHTIEST HEROES.
>
> Wasn't that the premise of Kurt's version, too? Big Guns only, and much
> more in the wake of the JLA of the time?

I can't comment on that, as I did not know Busiek at all until reading his
Avengers work for the first time, with even less knowledge of how he hyped
his own arrival.

I *can*, however, comment on Bendis/Brevoort (or was it Quesada?) who
claimed they were going to 'shake up the status quo' and do something
'totally unprecedented' and actually "JLA" the Avengers (which, in so many
words, they described as putting Earth's Mightiest Heroes on one team for
the first time ever).

Turns out the only really new thing here is Wolverine. Everyone else has
either been an Avenger before, or is a B-list character. Wolverine is the
only new A-list Avenger.

Granted, some would see trading Hawkeye and Thor for Spiderman and Wolverine
as an upgrade name-value-wise... but they got rid of other B-list characters
(Wasp, Hank, Vision) to replace them with more B-list characters (Sentry,
Cage, Spiderwoman).

I realize I'm repeating myself here, but it really really bugs me that they
claimed to be doing something unprecedented when they did no different than
anyone before them.

The only difference is that Kurt just chose not to TEAR BLACK KNIGHT LIMB
FROM LIMB when *he* took over and established *his* roster.

Everything about Disassembled just reeks of playing the fans for idiots. The
cover to #502, for instance, will be a pet peeve of mine for a long, long
time.

Shawn H

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Nov 3, 2004, 8:46:55 PM11/3/04
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Jon J. Yeager <nos...@please.com> wrote:
: "Shawn H" <shill#@fas.harvard.edu> wrote in message
: news:cmb902$auq$5...@us23.unix.fas.harvard.edu...
: > Jon J. Yeager <nos...@please.com> wrote:
: >
: > : All fiction is fan fiction.
: >
: > : PERIOD.
: >
: > Strangely, I agree totally. I wouldn't want a non-fan writing this stuff
: > (a la Identity Crisis).

: But I really enjoy Identity Crisis.

: Finally, a book that doesn't talk down to me as a comic book reader.

Just as a human being.

: > Wasn't that the premise of Kurt's version, too? Big Guns only, and much


: > more in the wake of the JLA of the time?

: I can't comment on that, as I did not know Busiek at all until reading his
: Avengers work for the first time, with even less knowledge of how he hyped
: his own arrival.

It wasn't just his hyping, it was the hype offered up by Marvel after the
mixed message of Heroes Reborn/Heroes Return. Perez was one hook, and
core big-gun Avengers was the other.

: I *can*, however, comment on Bendis/Brevoort (or was it Quesada?) who

: claimed they were going to 'shake up the status quo' and do something
: 'totally unprecedented' and actually "JLA" the Avengers (which, in so many
: words, they described as putting Earth's Mightiest Heroes on one team for
: the first time ever).

Just hype.

: I realize I'm repeating myself here, but it really really bugs me that they

: claimed to be doing something unprecedented when they did no different than
: anyone before them.

: The only difference is that Kurt just chose not to TEAR BLACK KNIGHT LIMB
: FROM LIMB when *he* took over and established *his* roster.

: Everything about Disassembled just reeks of playing the fans for idiots. The
: cover to #502, for instance, will be a pet peeve of mine for a long, long
: time.

Specifically because of ... ?

Shawn

Dan McEwen

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Nov 3, 2004, 10:13:09 PM11/3/04
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jay <jrid...@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:g5ngo0ljmon6gc0bj...@4ax.com:

> On 2 Nov 2004 14:17:15 -0800, syns...@eudoramail.com (Steven R.
> Stahl) wrote:

> The premise of the Avengers was "the Marvel version of the Justice
> League." The characters had no internal reason to form a team, no
> reason to remain together, and no mission. If Bendis wants to change
> the line-up of such an awkward beast to one he's more comfortable
> with, there's zero rationale in the history of the Avengers to bash
> him for this, beyond simply not liking his choices vs. those which
> writers have made in the past.

I'll have to agree. It wouldn't even be remotely close to the first
time that the _entire_ team disbanded only to have a new team form an
issue or so later. (Anyone remember the line-up that included
Gilgamesh, Invisible Woman, and Mister Fantastic? This was one of those
"new teams" that Cap formed on the fly to fill a void. Heck, even D-Man
was there briefly. Talk about an unlikely team.)

DntWryBoutMyNme

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Nov 4, 2004, 3:12:56 AM11/4/04
to
>Turns out the only really new thing here is Wolverine. Everyone else has
>either been an Avenger before, or is a B-list character. Wolverine is the
>only new A-list Avenger.

Whoa, Whoa, Whoa. Seriously disagree about Spidey being a B-List Avenger
(although he has been a Reserve Avenger, if thats what you meant).

Anyway, I like Bendis's approach to New Avengers. He IS using B-List
characters, in an attempt to turn them into A-List characters. Luke Cage is a
long time favorite of mine who has only been used with black stereotypes
concerning his character. But I believe he's always had the potential to be
"A-List" material, as long as he's written the right way. And Spidey...if
you're gonna "JLA the Avengers", you cant do it without Spidey, I'm sorry. In
fact, in my opinion, this is LOOONG overdue. Yes, he is a loner, I understand
that, but I just always believed he would make a good Avenger.

...I cant come up with any excuse of the overexposed Wolvie, though, other than
the "JLA the Avengers" excuse.

Anyway, I'm really looking forward to New Avengers (as well as Young Avengers
and New Thunderbolts...LoL...the Avengers are the new X-Men) even more after
reading Avengers #503. Also cant wait for that mysterious "House of M"
crossover/miniseries next summer.

Scott Dubin

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Nov 4, 2004, 9:58:45 AM11/4/04
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Shawn H <shill#@fas.harvard.edu> wrote in message news:<cmb902$auq$5...@us23.unix.fas.harvard.edu>...
> Jon J. Yeager <nos...@please.com> wrote:
>
> : All fiction is fan fiction.
>
> : PERIOD.
>
> Strangely, I agree totally. I wouldn't want a non-fan writing this stuff
> (a la Identity Crisis).
>
> : touches in the Marvel U. No one complains about it, because Kurt is so
> : goddamn good at what he does. It made SENSE for Hawkeye to jump from
> : Avengers to Thunderbolts when Kurt made the same jump.
>
> I don't know if your timing is right on there. Hadn't Busiek left T-bolts
> while he was still on Avengers?

Busiek was still writing Avengers at the time. (He even put a red
herring in Avengers since fans were guessing Hawkeye would switch. He
had an Avengers scene where Hawkeye says he hates the Thunderbolts)

Busiek also quit Thunderbolts before he quit Avengers, and was writing
Thunderbolts first.

M-Wolverine

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Nov 4, 2004, 11:04:10 AM11/4/04
to
"Jon J. Yeager" <nos...@please.com> wrote in message news:<xrbid.66144$t45.2...@weber.videotron.net>...

> "Shawn H" <shill#@fas.harvard.edu> wrote in message
> news:cmb902$auq$5...@us23.unix.fas.harvard.edu...
> > Jon J. Yeager <nos...@please.com> wrote:
> >
>
> > : THIS is what bothers me about the line-up. That it was formed under
> false
> > : pretenses, and no one at Marvel ever explained why they changed their
> minds
> > : along the way. The promise was that the Avengers would, for the first
> time
> > : ever, represent EARTH'S MIGHTIEST HEROES.
> >
> > Wasn't that the premise of Kurt's version, too? Big Guns only, and much
> > more in the wake of the JLA of the time?
>
> I can't comment on that, as I did not know Busiek at all until reading his
> Avengers work for the first time, with even less knowledge of how he hyped
> his own arrival.
>
> I *can*, however, comment on Bendis/Brevoort (or was it Quesada?) who
> claimed they were going to 'shake up the status quo' and do something
> 'totally unprecedented' and actually "JLA" the Avengers (which, in so many
> words, they described as putting Earth's Mightiest Heroes on one team for
> the first time ever).

I could handle the concept, even if it looks like a cheap copy of an
idea- and has a total lack of understanding of the team that say a
Busiek or Morrison has...the differences for their existing - but the
constant false advertising is kinda annoying.

> Turns out the only really new thing here is Wolverine. Everyone else has
> either been an Avenger before, or is a B-list character. Wolverine is the
> only new A-list Avenger.
>
> Granted, some would see trading Hawkeye and Thor for Spiderman and Wolverine
> as an upgrade name-value-wise... but they got rid of other B-list characters
> (Wasp, Hank, Vision) to replace them with more B-list characters (Sentry,
> Cage, Spiderwoman).

Let's be honest...trading B list characters for C and D list
characters.



> I realize I'm repeating myself here, but it really really bugs me that they
> claimed to be doing something unprecedented when they did no different than
> anyone before them.
>
> The only difference is that Kurt just chose not to TEAR BLACK KNIGHT LIMB
> FROM LIMB when *he* took over and established *his* roster.

Why do writers get a kick of f this? Just for the shock/hype? To do
what someone hasn't done (but can easily be undone)? Sure, Stan Lee
brought in Cap's QQ, they line-up was radically changed....but he
didn't kill the Wasp and Giant-Man to do it.

It's needless, it's cheap manipulation, and it doesn't have any
emotional impact...except anger. But that seems to be the emotion
Joey Q. runs his business on.



> Everything about Disassembled just reeks of playing the fans for idiots. The
> cover to #502, for instance, will be a pet peeve of mine for a long, long
> time.

I don't have it in front of me...and it's not ringing a bel...what is
the peeve?

Chris C.

Jon J. Yeager

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Nov 4, 2004, 1:12:05 PM11/4/04
to
"Shawn H" <shill#@fas.harvard.edu> wrote in message
news:cmc1mf$jok$1...@us23.unix.fas.harvard.edu...

> Jon J. Yeager <nos...@please.com> wrote:
> :
> : Everything about Disassembled just reeks of playing the fans for idiots.
> The
> : cover to #502, for instance, will be a pet peeve of mine for a long,
> long
> : time.
>
> Specifically because of ... ?

Because Hawkeye didn't die. No one saw him die. And his return in the pages
of the Thunderbolts is a given.

If they bring Hawkeye back from the land of the dead.. ie, strike a deal
with Mephisto or something.. then I'll be less annoyed. But it's obvious
that by not showing him explode to bits that it will be implied that he
never died. Maybe fell into a coma after a huge fall, or teleported to
safety in time... but he will not have died.

But if he really died and was later resurrected (even if it would be the
third time for him, after seeing it happen twice in WCA) then - and only
then - will the cover of #502 not have been a bold-faced lie.

Jon J. Yeager

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Nov 4, 2004, 1:17:35 PM11/4/04
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"DntWryBoutMyNme" <dntwryb...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20041104031256...@mb-m23.aol.com...

> >Turns out the only really new thing here is Wolverine. Everyone else has
>>either been an Avenger before, or is a B-list character. Wolverine is the
>>only new A-list Avenger.
>
> Whoa, Whoa, Whoa. Seriously disagree about Spidey being a B-List Avenger
> (although he has been a Reserve Avenger, if thats what you meant).

Spidey has been an Avenger. Call it reserve, short-lived, on-call,
whatever... he was sitting in Avengers Mansion when Busiek brought in all
the former Avengers for a new roster change.

If he counted as a former Avenger then, then he counts as a former Avenger
now.

> Anyway, I like Bendis's approach to New Avengers. He IS using B-List
> characters, in an attempt to turn them into A-List characters. Luke Cage
> is a
> long time favorite of mine who has only been used with black stereotypes
> concerning his character. But I believe he's always had the potential to
> be
> "A-List" material, as long as he's written the right way. And Spidey...if
> you're gonna "JLA the Avengers", you cant do it without Spidey, I'm sorry.
> In
> fact, in my opinion, this is LOOONG overdue. Yes, he is a loner, I
> understand
> that, but I just always believed he would make a good Avenger.

Again, I have no problem with Spiderman on this team. But he is not NEW.

Wolverine is the only NEW A-List character in the bunch.

> Anyway, I'm really looking forward to New Avengers (as well as Young
> Avengers
> and New Thunderbolts...LoL...the Avengers are the new X-Men) even more
> after
> reading Avengers #503. Also cant wait for that mysterious "House of M"
> crossover/miniseries next summer.

I was pretty excited myself, until the whole "quiver of death", "watching
Magneto fly off with Wanda" and every 2nd issue being a "nuff said" wordless
special edition.

I suspect we can expect more of the same in New Avengers, no?

Steven R. Stahl

unread,
Nov 4, 2004, 1:12:21 PM11/4/04
to
Shawn H <shill#@fas.harvard.edu> wrote in message news:<cmb0s1$88b$1...@us23.unix.fas.harvard.edu>...

> Steven R. Stahl <syns...@eudoramail.com> wrote:
> : In WIZARD's interview with Brian Michael Bendis (#158, pp. 38-44),
> : some material seems to indicate immaturity and a preference for
> : dialogue over other story elements.
>
> : I've seen Bendis invoke the name "Stan Lee" and refer to AVENGERS #16
> : several times now in defense of "Avengers Disassembled" and NEW
> : AVENGERS. It's an unthinking response to criticism, and when he cites
> : Spider-Woman, Luke Cage, and the Sentry as characters "I have a
> : personal affinity for," it's evident his perspective is that of a fan
> : fiction writer who wants to see stories about a group of heroes *he*
> : likes, versus the perspective of a writer who looks at a group of
> : heroes, sees plot hooks in their personalities and situations, and
> : writes stories based on them. NEW AVENGERS appears to be fan fiction
> : that will be published by Marvel.
>
> He may just be more honest and upfront in admitting his preferences than
> those professionals you allude to, who all have their biases as well.

In the case of the professionals, I was thinking of people who do
screenplays for TV series and, more relevantly, writers past on
AVENGERS. Shooter, Michelinie, Stern--they didn't dump people to make
room for their pet favorites, and the counterexamples didn't terminate
the series in order to publicize their pet projects.

[snip]>

[snip]



> : The Sentry's rep as a sort of Superman clone is reason enough not to
> : use him in stories.
>
> That's a hollow criticism. Avengers alone has an established history of
> Superman clones as villains: Hyperion, Wonder Man, Count Nefaria, Power
> Man, etc. Why not try one out as a hero? Sentry's a very interesting
> insertion into Marvel History, worthy of a story or two still I'm sure.

There, I was thinking of his description online as having virtually
limitless powers. As I commented angrily recently, that amounts to a
personified plot hole. But then I'm more concerned with plot logic
than most people.

> : Cage is only superhuman when compared to normal humans; any number of
> : paranormals in the M.U. could kill him in a minute. Either Bendis is
> : misinterpreting his powers, or Cage won't be going up against foes and
> : devices commonly seen in "classic" AVENGERS.
>
> All Wasp does is shrink and fire mild electric shocks, and you're worried
> about an invulnerable super-strong man?

Yeah, but as someone who rarely fought outside of the group, it was
fairly easy to show her exhbiting combat skills. I may yet do the
"Phynesse Does the Avengers" parody, which has her killing four
Avengers in about a minute and kayoing two others, by doing things
like backhanding the Wasp and paralyzing Giant-Man's legs. Luke Cage,
though, is far from invulnerable and only moderately strong. In the
CAGE miniseries (by Corben, admittedly) Man-Mountain Marko beat him
up. Count Nefaria could have put his fist through Cage's body.

> : It's interesting to see how few of the New Avengers can project energy
> : or use other forms of paranormal energy. AVENGERS #500-#502 have been
> : notably devoid of characters using their powers in fights; the fight
> : scenes have been notable for their simple, generic natures. One can
> : reasonably infer that Bendis wants to avoid having to write fight
> : scenes involving paranormal powers in opposition, which raises the
> : question of what the pages of AVENGERS #503 will have in them.
>
> People trying to reason with Mad Wanda, I'd imagine. And yes, there does
> seem to be a sort of aversion to force blasts from Bendis; the only place
> I can think of where he lets characters use their energy competently is
> when the Ultimate X-men visit Peter Parker. Jessica Drew seemed almost
> to apologize for shocking people in her Alias cameo, and Jessica Jones
> has a hard time maintaining her powers of flight except when in a rage.
>
> Her attack on Scarlet Witch while under mind control was nothing more
> than one big punch, either, just as many of the events in Dissassembled
> have unfolded. Bendis is all about the magnificence of one deadly blow
> from Thor, with little thought put into the strategy of deploying more
> than such magical brute force against foes.

And from looking at the lineup, it appears that a generic force field,
whether used offensively or defensively, will take care of most of the
New Avengers. What will they do against foes who attack from a
distance? Bendis doesn't seem to have a variety of fight scenes in
mind.

SRS

Jon J. Yeager

unread,
Nov 4, 2004, 1:22:37 PM11/4/04
to
"M-Wolverine" <mwo...@umich.edu> wrote in message
news:bb035269.04110...@posting.google.com...

>
> I could handle the concept, even if it looks like a cheap copy of an
> idea- and has a total lack of understanding of the team that say a
> Busiek or Morrison has...the differences for their existing - but the
> constant false advertising is kinda annoying.

Exactly.

>> Granted, some would see trading Hawkeye and Thor for Spiderman and
>> Wolverine
>> as an upgrade name-value-wise... but they got rid of other B-list
>> characters
>> (Wasp, Hank, Vision) to replace them with more B-list characters (Sentry,
>> Cage, Spiderwoman).
>
> Let's be honest...trading B list characters for C and D list
> characters.

Okay. I was trying to be kind. :)

> Why do writers get a kick of f this? Just for the shock/hype? To do
> what someone hasn't done (but can easily be undone)? Sure, Stan Lee
> brought in Cap's QQ, they line-up was radically changed....but he
> didn't kill the Wasp and Giant-Man to do it.
>
> It's needless, it's cheap manipulation, and it doesn't have any
> emotional impact...except anger. But that seems to be the emotion
> Joey Q. runs his business on.

Again, it's the fake hype that bothers me. The promise of something new --
essentially, Wolverine -- and he's now officially been a part of every team
in the Marvel U. except for the Defenders and Guardians of the Galaxy.

Okay, I exagerrate, but you get my point.

>> Everything about Disassembled just reeks of playing the fans for idiots.
>> The
>> cover to #502, for instance, will be a pet peeve of mine for a long, long
>> time.
>
> I don't have it in front of me...and it's not ringing a bel...what is
> the peeve?

They advertised that one of these heroes will die when none of them did. One
of them disappeared in a big explosion, and will return in New Thunderbolts.

When he does, unless they confirm that he really did die and strike a pact
with Mephisto to let him go (his 3rd resurrection if memory serves me right,
after dying twice in the pages of WCA), then I will be less annoyed.

It will still seem ridiculous to resurrect a character 3 times, but at least
it won't be the blatant false advertising it seems to be right now.

Glenn Simpson

unread,
Nov 4, 2004, 3:51:34 PM11/4/04
to
> The premise of the Avengers was "the Marvel version of the Justice
> League." The characters had no internal reason to form a team, no
> reason to remain together, and no mission.

Well, to be fair, there was clearly an acknowledgement that there were
some evils that required combined efforts to take care of, and
therefore the formation was a reaction to that.


If Bendis wants to change
> the line-up of such an awkward beast to one he's more comfortable
> with, there's zero rationale in the history of the Avengers to bash
> him for this, beyond simply not liking his choices vs. those which
> writers have made in the past.

Agreed. It has never been about getting the most powerful heroes to
join, or else the Black Panther and Cap wouldn't have been there. It
was more about who knew who, what their reputation was, whether they
were able to work within a team environment, and whether they wanted
to join. Governmental restrictions aside, of course.

Scott Dubin

unread,
Nov 4, 2004, 8:28:49 PM11/4/04
to
syns...@eudoramail.com (Steven R. Stahl) wrote in message news:<a3d98b1d.04110...@posting.google.com>...

>
> Cage is only superhuman when compared to normal humans; any number of
> paranormals in the M.U. could kill him in a minute. Either Bendis is
> misinterpreting his powers, or Cage won't be going up against foes and
> devices commonly seen in "classic" AVENGERS.

I've only seen Luke Cage in Daredevil and Alias, and I get the
impression he has the power of invulnerability.

Scott Dubin

unread,
Nov 4, 2004, 8:33:07 PM11/4/04
to
Shawn H <shill#@fas.harvard.edu> wrote in message news:<cmb0s1$88b$1...@us23.unix.fas.harvard.edu>...
>
> : The Sentry's rep as a sort of Superman clone is reason enough not to
> : use him in stories.
>
> That's a hollow criticism. Avengers alone has an established history of
> Superman clones as villains: Hyperion, Wonder Man, Count Nefaria, Power
> Man, etc. Why not try one out as a hero? Sentry's a very interesting
> insertion into Marvel History, worthy of a story or two still I'm sure.
>

Sentry is not a Superman clone, he's a Marvelman clone. Anybody who's
read Marvelman can see what influenced the Jenkins miniseries.

When Marvelman first encounters the adult Bates it's storming outside
and looks very similar to Jenkins' Void.

Dan McEwen

unread,
Nov 5, 2004, 8:35:08 PM11/5/04
to
scott...@yahoo.com (Scott Dubin) wrote in
news:887734a2.04110...@posting.google.com:

I think Steven knows that. Luke Cage's skin is "steel hard". That
said, this could simply be a way of describing that his skin is tough
rather than being literally "steel hard". Steel hard skin could be
broken fairly easy by most people with super-strength. However, I
wouldn't get all that upset about it given that Spider-Man has regular
skin but still gets by. Cage also has super-strength but I don't know
the limits.

R. Tang

unread,
Nov 5, 2004, 8:40:39 PM11/5/04
to
>> syns...@eudoramail.com (Steven R. Stahl) wrote in message
>> news:<a3d98b1d.04110...@posting.google.com>...
>>
>>> Cage is only superhuman when compared to normal humans; any number of
>>> paranormals in the M.U. could kill him in a minute. Either Bendis is
>>> misinterpreting his powers, or Cage won't be going up against foes
>>> and devices commonly seen in "classic" AVENGERS.

By the way, this statement is incorrect.

He's gone through at least one power boost over the years (and he
started out at Spider Man level strength). Morever, he was able to sub for
the Thing in the Fantastic Four, so he clearly isn't too shabby.
--
-
-Roger Tang, gwan...@u.washington.edu, Artistic Director PC Theatre
- Editor, Asian American Theatre Revue [NEW URL][Yes, it IS new]
- http://www.aatrevue.com

Scott Dubin

unread,
Nov 6, 2004, 1:33:45 AM11/6/04
to
"Jon J. Yeager" <nos...@please.com> wrote in message news:<uouid.238$ab.9...@weber.videotron.net>...

> They advertised that one of these heroes will die when none of them did. One
> of them disappeared in a big explosion, and will return in New Thunderbolts.

Has this been confirmed, incidently, or are you just making shit up?

Personally, if I wanted to keep New Thunderbolts fresh, I wouldn't be
looking to use the stabilizing influence of Hawkeye any time soon.

Shawn H

unread,
Nov 6, 2004, 3:53:19 AM11/6/04
to
Steven R. Stahl <syns...@eudoramail.com> wrote:

: > He may just be more honest and upfront in admitting his preferences than

: > those professionals you allude to, who all have their biases as well.

: In the case of the professionals, I was thinking of people who do
: screenplays for TV series and, more relevantly, writers past on
: AVENGERS. Shooter, Michelinie, Stern--they didn't dump people to make
: room for their pet favorites, and the counterexamples didn't terminate
: the series in order to publicize their pet projects.

They didn't kill people, but they certainly shuffled them off-stage.

: > That's a hollow criticism. Avengers alone has an established history of

: > Superman clones as villains: Hyperion, Wonder Man, Count Nefaria, Power
: > Man, etc. Why not try one out as a hero? Sentry's a very interesting
: > insertion into Marvel History, worthy of a story or two still I'm sure.

: There, I was thinking of his description online as having virtually
: limitless powers. As I commented angrily recently, that amounts to a
: personified plot hole. But then I'm more concerned with plot logic
: than most people.

I imagine part of what Bendis will be doing is defining Sentry more than
he has been before. He seemed to get rid of Wanda precisely because she
can do anything in his view.

: Yeah, but as someone who rarely fought outside of the group, it was


: fairly easy to show her exhbiting combat skills. I may yet do the
: "Phynesse Does the Avengers" parody, which has her killing four
: Avengers in about a minute and kayoing two others, by doing things
: like backhanding the Wasp and paralyzing Giant-Man's legs. Luke Cage,
: though, is far from invulnerable and only moderately strong. In the
: CAGE miniseries (by Corben, admittedly) Man-Mountain Marko beat him
: up. Count Nefaria could have put his fist through Cage's body.

Cage IS invulnerable. That's his deal.

: > Her attack on Scarlet Witch while under mind control was nothing more

: > than one big punch, either, just as many of the events in Dissassembled
: > have unfolded. Bendis is all about the magnificence of one deadly blow
: > from Thor, with little thought put into the strategy of deploying more
: > than such magical brute force against foes.

: And from looking at the lineup, it appears that a generic force field,
: whether used offensively or defensively, will take care of most of the
: New Avengers. What will they do against foes who attack from a
: distance? Bendis doesn't seem to have a variety of fight scenes in
: mind.

He certainly hasn't shown much variety yet on the title. It's all had one
long, dark tone.

Shawn

Dan McEwen

unread,
Nov 6, 2004, 9:32:32 PM11/6/04
to
gwan...@u.washington.edu (R. Tang) wrote in
news:cmha2n$v5h$1...@gnus01.u.washington.edu:

> He's gone through at least one power boost over the years (and he
> started out at Spider Man level strength). Morever, he was able to sub
> for the Thing in the Fantastic Four, so he clearly isn't too shabby.

And that was back before any sort of power boost. I agree that Luke Cage
is a fine choice.

Dan McEwen

unread,
Nov 6, 2004, 10:02:16 PM11/6/04
to

> "Jon J. Yeager" <nos...@please.com> wrote in message

Actually, considering that Atlas was supposed to be de-powered following
Avengers/Thunderbolts, I wonder if people aren't correct in thinking
Hawkeye will be back. But instead of being Hawkeye, he'd be the new
Atlas. Size-changing isn't new to Hawkeye and there is going to be an
Atlas in Thunderbolts.

AJSolis

unread,
Nov 7, 2004, 4:24:01 AM11/7/04
to
>All Wasp does is shrink and fire mild electric shocks, and you're worried
>about an invulnerable super-strong man?
Yeah, I have a separate issue about luke cage on the team though. Powers
wise, he's rather superfluous. Superstrength: Sentry, Spider-Man, SpiderWoman,
and Iron Man. Invulnerability: Sentry and Iron Man. Hand to hand fighter:
Captain america, wolverine, spider-man, possibly spiderwoman (I don't
remember).
Other than trying to impregnate as many superheroines as possible, I don't
see him adding much. But I admit I'm not a luke cage fan.
I'm not a proponent of the legion of superheroes mode of "everyone has to
have their own unique power," but not only does Luke Cage have nothing unusual
to offer power wise, but I believe he's outmatched by a couple of teammates in
every area of power.

AJSolis

unread,
Nov 7, 2004, 4:29:46 AM11/7/04
to
>I imagine part of what Bendis will be doing is defining Sentry more than
>he has been before. He seemed to get rid of Wanda precisely because she
>can do anything in his view.
Heck, weakening Sentry is a requirement for in character reason as well. If
he's really unlimited, then his id monster is capable of destroying the
universe. Perhaps his robot develops a variant drug that responds to concious
thought instead of subconcious thought.

>Cage IS invulnerable. That's his deal.

Last I heard, his skin is as hard as steel. If Marvel actually bothered to
portray strength versus resistance to injury, that's Luke getting dented by
quite a few marvel characters.

The Black Guardian

unread,
Nov 7, 2004, 5:12:07 AM11/7/04
to
AJSolis wrote:
>> All Wasp does is shrink and fire mild electric shocks, and you're
>> worried about an invulnerable super-strong man?
>
> Yeah, I have a separate issue about luke cage on the team though.
> Powers wise, he's rather superfluous. Superstrength: Sentry,
> Spider-Man, SpiderWoman, and Iron Man. Invulnerability: Sentry
> and Iron Man. Hand to hand fighter: Captain america, wolverine,
> spider-man, possibly spiderwoman (I don't remember).

That's not superfluous. That's redundant. There's a difference.

> Other than trying to impregnate as many superheroines as possible,
> I don't see him adding much. But I admit I'm not a luke cage fan.

He's got the guts for the job. That's all that really matters. Anyone who has
the guts to get in Doom's face has my vote of confidance.

I do think the team seems rather scrapper-/tanker-heavy. However, we don't
exactly know what the mission will be yet or how permanent the lineup will be.
--
-=[ The BlakGard ]=-
"Somewhere there's danger;
somewhere there's injustice,
and somewhere else the tea is getting cold!"

Nathan P. Mahney

unread,
Nov 7, 2004, 7:20:32 AM11/7/04
to
The Black Guardian <blak...@aol.coma.org> wrote in message
news:20041107051207...@mb-m15.aol.com...

> AJSolis wrote:
> >> All Wasp does is shrink and fire mild electric shocks, and you're
> >> worried about an invulnerable super-strong man?
> >
> > Yeah, I have a separate issue about luke cage on the team though.
> > Powers wise, he's rather superfluous. Superstrength: Sentry,
> > Spider-Man, SpiderWoman, and Iron Man. Invulnerability: Sentry
> > and Iron Man. Hand to hand fighter: Captain america, wolverine,
> > spider-man, possibly spiderwoman (I don't remember).
>
> That's not superfluous. That's redundant. There's a difference.
>
> > Other than trying to impregnate as many superheroines as possible,
> > I don't see him adding much. But I admit I'm not a luke cage fan.
>
> He's got the guts for the job. That's all that really matters. Anyone who
has
> the guts to get in Doom's face has my vote of confidance.
>
> I do think the team seems rather scrapper-/tanker-heavy. However, we
> don't exactly know what the mission will be yet or how permanent the
> lineup will be.

Bendis said at WizardWorld Texas that he already has the first 18 issues
planned out, but the lineup could change during those issues.

--
- Nathan P. Mahney -

Writing:
http://free.hostdepartment.com/n/npmahney/index.html
The Whole Story Comic Reviews:
http://free.hostdepartment.com/n/npmahney/ReviewIndex.html
Gamebook Scenic Solutions:
http://free.hostdepartment.com/n/npmahney/SSIndex.html

Shawn H

unread,
Nov 7, 2004, 2:29:42 PM11/7/04
to
AJSolis <ajs...@aol.com> wrote:
: >All Wasp does is shrink and fire mild electric shocks, and you're worried
: >about an invulnerable super-strong man?
: Yeah, I have a separate issue about luke cage on the team though. Powers
: wise, he's rather superfluous. Superstrength: Sentry, Spider-Man, SpiderWoman,
: and Iron Man. Invulnerability: Sentry and Iron Man. Hand to hand fighter:
: Captain america, wolverine, spider-man, possibly spiderwoman (I don't
: remember).
: Other than trying to impregnate as many superheroines as possible, I don't
: see him adding much. But I admit I'm not a luke cage fan.

Do special ops forces train everyone with different areas of expertise?
Or do they give everyone similar combat skills and protective devices?
One more super-strong, invulnerable guy isn't a liability.

: I'm not a proponent of the legion of superheroes mode of "everyone has to


: have their own unique power," but not only does Luke Cage have nothing unusual
: to offer power wise, but I believe he's outmatched by a couple of teammates in
: every area of power.

I think Bendis will find a way to make him useful.

Shawn

R. Tang

unread,
Nov 7, 2004, 3:08:32 PM11/7/04
to
In article <2v5fpqF...@uni-berlin.de>,

Yeah...it's a shame some fans are willing to trash continuity to
make their point.

Mathew Krull

unread,
Nov 7, 2004, 6:12:37 PM11/7/04
to
Steven R. Stahl wrote:


>
> Cage is only superhuman when compared to normal humans; any number of
> paranormals in the M.U. could kill him in a minute. Either Bendis is
> misinterpreting his powers, or Cage won't be going up against foes and
> devices commonly seen in "classic" AVENGERS.
>

You know, your right, classic Avenger's like Hawkeye, Black Knight, or
the Swordsman would be so much better. There super powers are certainly
better suited for dealing with classic Avenger's foes. You could
replace Cage with about half of the people who have been Avengers in the
past in your first sentence and it would still be correct.

Trevor Barrie

unread,
Nov 8, 2004, 6:33:43 AM11/8/04
to
In article <cmlvc0$97c$1...@gnus01.u.washington.edu>,

R. Tang <gwan...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>In article <2v5fpqF...@uni-berlin.de>,
>Dan McEwen <dannyb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>And that was back before any sort of power boost. I agree that Luke Cage
>>is a fine choice.
>
> Yeah...it's a shame some fans are willing to trash continuity to
>make their point.

To be fair, the old OHOTMU Deluxe Edition listed Spider-Man as being five
times as strong as Luke Cage (10 tons lift ability vs 2 tons, IIRC). That
may be what the earlier poster was basing his assessment on.

Granted, that always seemed strange to me -- I haven't read a lot of Cage
appearances, but the references to him I've seen generally imply that he's
supposed to be a powerhouse -- but Mark Gruenwald and Peter Sanderson both
knew the Marvel U a heck of a lot better than I did, so I would think there
must be at least some in-continuity evidence that Luke Cage is small
potatoes as far as superhuman strength goes.

MasonReloaded

unread,
Nov 8, 2004, 11:02:56 AM11/8/04
to
syns...@eudoramail.com (Steven R. Stahl) wrote in message news:<a3d98b1d.04110...@posting.google.com>...
> Cage is only superhuman when compared to normal humans <snip>

Not to be picky, and I get your point that he's not nearly as powerful
as a lot of superheroes out there, but surely by definition,
superhuman is comparing somebody to normal humans: He is stronger, and
more powerful than any normal human being. And somebody's powers
shouldn't be a limit on their character, if Green Arrow and Batman can
be in the Justice League with ZERO superhuman abilities, surely Cage
can play an interesting role in the New Avengers...

Jim Wilkerson

unread,
Nov 8, 2004, 11:16:40 AM11/8/04
to

"Trevor Barrie" wrote:

> Granted, that always seemed strange to me -- I haven't read a lot of Cage
> appearances, but the references to him I've seen generally imply that he's
> supposed to be a powerhouse -- but Mark Gruenwald and Peter Sanderson both
> knew the Marvel U a heck of a lot better than I did, so I would think
> there
> must be at least some in-continuity evidence that Luke Cage is small
> potatoes as far as superhuman strength goes.

Actually, I've always regarded Cage as one of the weaker heroes from a
strength standpoint in the Marvel Universe. That was one of the selling
points of Hero for Hire. Cage was stronger by multiples than the normal
human but not superpowered to the point of getting down with the major bad
guys. He was available for the jobs that needed an extra boost but not
against those baddies where the "real" powerhouses were needed.

In fact, Rage and Cage had alot in common... :)

Jim Wilkerson


Jeremy Henderson

unread,
Nov 8, 2004, 9:45:05 PM11/8/04
to

Honestly, Cage is the one member of the New Avengers I'm kind of
scratching my head over, just for this reason. I'm not crazy about
Wolverine being on the team, because he's in every damned Marvel comic
nowadays, and I'm wild about Spidey, because I think it kills some of
his down on his luck Everyman appeal when he's a member of the world's
most prominent superhero team, but I can see where they both bring
unique skills and abilities to the group. Luke Cage doesn't seem to
have any such qualities. Of the seven known members of group, he's
actually weaker than all but Cap and Wolverine, and Iron Man and
Sentry are far, FAR more invulverable (as is Wolverine, in his way).


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TonyJ1675

unread,
Nov 8, 2004, 10:51:49 PM11/8/04
to
>From: dntwryboutmynme

>And Spidey...if
>you're gonna "JLA the Avengers", you cant do it without Spidey, I'm sorry. In
>fact, in my opinion, this is LOOONG overdue.

--If the attempt is to JLA-ize the Avengers (which I don't necessarily like),
then yeah, Spidey fits.
As for the "loner" bit, well, Batman is a "loner" and see how well he works in
the JLA...

TonyJ1675

unread,
Nov 8, 2004, 10:53:28 PM11/8/04
to
>From: "Jon J. Yeager"

>I was pretty excited myself, until the whole "quiver of death",

--yeah, what's the deal with that one?
Clint couldn't have taken the quiver off before it exploded? I mean he had
enough time to overtake that Kree pilots craft, so he could have thrown his
quiver somewhere.

no...@noplace.com

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Nov 9, 2004, 9:06:44 AM11/9/04
to
IOn Mon, 08 Nov 2004 21:45:05 -0500, Jeremy Henderson
<hel...@BABYJESUSHATESSPAMTAMPABAY.RR.COM> wrote:

It all depends on what "Cage" background you want to follow and who's
writing him

If you follow the Hero for Hire/ Powerman and Iron fist background

He's as strong as spiderman
Went toe to toe with the other Powerman who later became Atlas and won
Trained in basic martial arts by iron fist
Was a Defender (everyone for gets that)

and most importantly.. has a movie in the works

now as long as they keep him away from soda machines... he could be a
solid addition

Dave Van Domelen

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Nov 9, 2004, 10:09:10 AM11/9/04
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In article <iqi1p0hsmm6fm1o7o...@4ax.com>,

<no...@noplace.com> wrote:
>If you follow the Hero for Hire/ Powerman and Iron fist background
>
>He's as strong as spiderman
>Went toe to toe with the other Powerman who later became Atlas and won
>Trained in basic martial arts by iron fist
>Was a Defender (everyone for gets that)

He was also a member of the FF, albeit in a "blink and you miss it"
sense. And to be fair to Erik Josten, he was sliding down the power curve at
the time he lost to Luke.

Mind you, the New Avengers are a bit heavy on the puncheminnaface
sorts. Spider-Man, Spider-Woman (presuming she hasn't gotten her bio
electric blasts back), Wolverine, Cage and Captain America are all primarily
melee fighters (although Spidey and Cap have weapons that give them some
ranged punch). Dunno about Sentry, and that leaves Iron Man as their only
definite way of dealing with stuff at a distance without ripping up pavement
and throwing it. Or throwing Logan.

Dave Van Domelen, maybe Stark will fix Cage up with a blaster or
something.


TonyJ1675

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Nov 9, 2004, 1:12:30 PM11/9/04
to
>From: no...@noplace.com

>If you follow the Hero for Hire/ Powerman and Iron fist background
>
>He's as strong as spiderman
>Went toe to toe with the other Powerman who later became Atlas and won
>Trained in basic martial arts by iron fist
>Was a Defender (everyone for gets that)
>
>and most importantly.. has a movie in the works
>
>now as long as they keep him away from soda machines... he could be a
>solid addition
>

--If BMB read Cage's old, early 90s series, then he's aware that Luke got a
major power upgrade therein and went toe to toe with the Hulk for an extended
time (though he didn't beat him of course). So it's clear Luke Cage is well
beyond his former strength level. Enough to justify his inclusion as a really
powerful character in Avengers (though I'm more interested in how his character
with interact with the team).

TonyJ1675

unread,
Nov 9, 2004, 1:15:07 PM11/9/04
to
>From: dva...@haven.eyrie.org

>Mind you, the New Avengers are a bit heavy on the puncheminnaface
>sorts.

--yeah, it seems like there might be a conscious effort to make the team for
"fist fighters" than anything else. I mean where are the Captain Marvel's,
Firestar's, Firebird's or anybody (beyond Iron Man; though Jessica Drew *does*
have her bioelectric stings back)?
Speaking of which, is there any reason made in Avengers 503 why Cap doesn't
reform the Avengers with the plethora of members at his disposal (my shop was
short on copies, so I'm having to wait for mine to come in)?

Shawn H

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Nov 9, 2004, 2:37:47 PM11/9/04
to
TonyJ1675 <tony...@aol.com> wrote:
: >From: dva...@haven.eyrie.org

Apparently, they're so depressed, they all just wander off in disgust. As
if to give up hero-ing forever more.

Shawn

Tue Sorensen

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Nov 9, 2004, 4:26:06 PM11/9/04
to
no...@noplace.com wrote in message news:<iqi1p0hsmm6fm1o7o...@4ax.com>...

> It all depends on what "Cage" background you want to follow and who's
> writing him
>
> If you follow the Hero for Hire/ Powerman and Iron fist background
>
> He's as strong as spiderman
> Went toe to toe with the other Powerman who later became Atlas and won
> Trained in basic martial arts by iron fist
> Was a Defender (everyone for gets that)

I don't think Luke Cage has ever been as strong as Spider-Man. I
always use the rule of thumb that Cage has the strength of ten men,
while Spidey has the strength of 40-50 men.

Despite Cage's "weakness", he's frequently triumphed over villains
much stronger than him. But heroes do that.

- Tue

R. Tang

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Nov 9, 2004, 4:47:11 PM11/9/04
to
In article <c50450f6.0411...@posting.google.com>,

Tue Sorensen <twoc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>no...@noplace.com wrote in message news:<iqi1p0hsmm6fm1o7o...@4ax.com>...
>> It all depends on what "Cage" background you want to follow and who's
>> writing him
>>
>> If you follow the Hero for Hire/ Powerman and Iron fist background
>>
>> He's as strong as spiderman
>> Went toe to toe with the other Powerman who later became Atlas and won
>> Trained in basic martial arts by iron fist
>> Was a Defender (everyone for gets that)
>
>I don't think Luke Cage has ever been as strong as Spider-Man.


Crap. Not even the fans know how strong he is....he's gotten at
least one strength upgrade, and he's been in a slugfest with the Hulk
before (gotta have at least Spider man strength to do that)....

If the evidence is as all over the map as it seems to be, then we
really can't be complaining about consistency of powers....

I
>always use the rule of thumb that Cage has the strength of ten men,
>while Spidey has the strength of 40-50 men.
>
>Despite Cage's "weakness", he's frequently triumphed over villains
>much stronger than him. But heroes do that.
>
>- Tue

Shawn H

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Nov 9, 2004, 6:25:56 PM11/9/04
to
R. Tang <gwan...@u.washington.edu> wrote:

: >I don't think Luke Cage has ever been as strong as Spider-Man.


: Crap. Not even the fans know how strong he is....he's gotten at
: least one strength upgrade, and he's been in a slugfest with the Hulk
: before (gotta have at least Spider man strength to do that)....

: If the evidence is as all over the map as it seems to be, then we
: really can't be complaining about consistency of powers....

Yeah, I think we should have a wait and see attitude on this one. Luke
was way cool in Alias, and he's been cool in the Pusle, too. Bendis knows
he's not Superman-tough, to judge from his injuries in Secret War. At any
rate, he's certainly far stronger than many who have served in the
Avengers ranks over the years.

Shawn

TonyJ1675

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Nov 9, 2004, 7:33:34 PM11/9/04
to
>From: twoc...@hotmail.com

>I don't think Luke Cage has ever been as strong as Spider-Man. I
>always use the rule of thumb that Cage has the strength of ten men,
>while Spidey has the strength of 40-50 men.

--if we go by the old MU Handbook stats, Spidey clocks in at about a 10 ton
press, whereas Luke only does about 3 tons. Spiderman has faced some really
powerful foes, but so has Luke.
Heck, Buffy isn't even as strong as Luke and she's faced down opponents like
Adam, Glory and Caleb, who are many, many times stronger than she is.
So Luke being in the Avengers shouldn't be determined by how strong he is or
isn't.


Nathan P. Mahney

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Nov 9, 2004, 8:31:35 PM11/9/04
to
Shawn H <shill#@fas.harvard.edu> wrote in message
news:cmr6ab$2nm$1...@us23.unix.fas.harvard.edu...

No doubt the real explanation comes up in Avengers: Finale.

Jeremy Henderson

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Nov 9, 2004, 9:54:53 PM11/9/04
to

Yes, but Buffy wasn't surrounded by people who were far, far more
powerful than she. I don't have any objection to Luke Cage being on
the team because he's not the most powerful, I just don't see what
unique skills or abilities he brings to the team, unless you count
"urbanness" as a tactical advantage.

TonyJ1675

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Nov 9, 2004, 11:21:01 PM11/9/04
to
>From: Jeremy Henderson

>Yes, but Buffy wasn't surrounded by people who were far, far more
>powerful than she.

--that wasn't quite my point. I meant to say that despite the fact that
Buffy's power level was so trivial against some of her opponents, she still
managed to triumph. Likewise, even though Cage *used* to not be as strong as
Spidey, he could hold his own and defeat opponents more powerful than he was.
Again, it's moot since his strength level is more likely equal to SheHulk's (in
a non Hulked out state).

>I don't have any objection to Luke Cage being on
>the team because he's not the most powerful, I just don't see what
>unique skills or abilities he brings to the team, unless you count
>"urbanness" as a tactical advantage

--it's his unique perspective. Luke is one of the few streetwise heroes in the
MU (even moreso than Spidey or DD). He's more than just a tough guy. Just
take a look at him in Pulse #5.
I don't tend to think membership in the Avengers is dependent upon having
unique skills or abilities. This isn't the Silver Age LSH.


The Black Guardian

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Nov 10, 2004, 12:03:24 AM11/10/04
to
TonyJ1675 wrote:
>> Yes, but Buffy wasn't surrounded by people who were far, far more
>> powerful than she.
>
> --that wasn't quite my point. I meant to say that despite the fact that
> Buffy's power level was so trivial against some of her opponents, she still
> managed to triumph. Likewise, even though Cage *used* to not be as strong as
> Spidey, he could hold his own and defeat opponents more powerful than he was.
> Again, it's moot since his strength level is more likely equal to SheHulk's
> (in a non Hulked out state).

Indeed. Hell, Spidey beat up Firelord and Iron Man 2020 (among others), for
Kirby's sake!

Shawn H

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Nov 10, 2004, 1:44:17 AM11/10/04
to
Nathan P. Mahney <nma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
: Shawn H <shill#@fas.harvard.edu> wrote in message
: >
: > Apparently, they're so depressed, they all just wander off in disgust. As

: > if to give up hero-ing forever more.

: No doubt the real explanation comes up in Avengers: Finale.

I thought word had it that was just an Avengers retrospective summation
jam issue.

Shawn

Johnny Storm

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Nov 10, 2004, 8:34:18 AM11/10/04
to

"Jim Wilkerson" <jwilk...@t-online.de> wrote in message
news:cmo65b$32q$05$1...@news.t-online.com...


How so?


Johnny

masonReloaded

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Nov 10, 2004, 9:26:56 AM11/10/04
to
Dont agree with the decision to JLA-ize the avengers, but if that was
their plan, then surely that means, they should have THE
biggest-selling/most known 6 or 7 heroes from the MU, they should all
have (or have had) their own titles, which would limit it to a choice
from:
Captain America, Spiderman, Wolverine, The Hulk, Iron Man, Dr Strange,
Ghost Rider, Silver Surfer, Punisher, Daredevil, Elektra, Thor... I
dont see Spider-Woman, Luke Cage, and Sentry being in this league...

TonyJ1675

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Nov 10, 2004, 9:25:13 AM11/10/04
to
>From: blakgard

>Indeed. Hell, Spidey beat up Firelord and Iron Man 2020 (among others), for
>Kirby's sake!

--PLEASE! Don't bring up the former. How many long winded threads has that one
incited over the years?

Lilith

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Nov 10, 2004, 2:01:18 PM11/10/04
to
On 10 Nov 2004 06:26:56 -0800, "masonReloaded" <j...@jmason.co.uk>
wrote:

He may not be a big gun with regards to selling a title but, depending
on how powered up he is, he could be the Superman equivalent, if not
in precise powers at least in terms of power level.

Lilith

TonyJ1675

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Nov 10, 2004, 9:32:16 PM11/10/04
to
>From: "masonReloaded"

--I don't agree with it either, at least not over a long term (I've often been
amused at the thought of the Avengers having the star appeal and power of the
JLA for a few stories; I'd love to see the Avengers in epic stories like
Morrison did with the JLA; just not permanently).
Given the lineup, it sure doesn't seem like Bendis is JLA-izing the Avengers.
Spiderwoman, Cage and Sentry are certainly not A-list.

>I
>dont see Spider-Woman, Luke Cage, and Sentry being in this league...

--Spiderwoman's book ran 50 issues. Cage had a solo book in Hero For Hire for
a while (don't remember the exact number) and then had his own series (entitled
Cage) that ran for around 20 issues in the early 90s. Sentry of course had a
mini by Paul Jenkins in the late 90s.
So they qualify as heroes who had their own books.

Richard

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Nov 12, 2004, 12:51:40 AM11/12/04
to

Tue Sorensen wrote:
> no...@noplace.com wrote in message news:<iqi1p0hsmm6fm1o7o...@4ax.com>...
>
>>It all depends on what "Cage" background you want to follow and who's
>>writing him
>>
>>If you follow the Hero for Hire/ Powerman and Iron fist background
>>
>>He's as strong as spiderman
>>Went toe to toe with the other Powerman who later became Atlas and won
>>Trained in basic martial arts by iron fist
>>Was a Defender (everyone for gets that)
>
>
> I don't think Luke Cage has ever been as strong as Spider-Man.


About a year after the Luke Cage character was introduced, he
guest-starred in Amazing Spider-Man #123, August 1973 (this story
was just reprinted in the Essential Spider-Man #6). In that issue,
Cage and Spider-Man have a hand to hand brawl (one of the all-time
best superhero battles in my opinion). After knocking each other
senseless with basically only their fists for almost the entire
story, Spidey comes to the realization "we're too evenly matched for
either of us to really win!". Unless this story was retconned or he
was depowered along the way, he really should be at least in
Spider-Man's class, regardless of what the Marvel Universe book says.


Richard

Nathan P. Mahney

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Nov 12, 2004, 4:02:45 AM11/12/04