Atheist superheroes?

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Andrew Furdell

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Sep 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/21/99
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Hey, how come there aren't any? I think that a lot of comic book
readers are young atheists (like me, only when I was younger...) I
really could have used a comic book role model then. All we had was
Quasar, and he was a really wimpy atheist, with his whole "maybe I
haven't found the right religion for me" thing. Hey, Kurt Busiek or
Christopher Priest or Erik Larsen...why not write an atheist hero? Even
better, how about if you make an already established character atheist?

Come to think of it, Nova would be a really good one. He fights aliens,
and he's a young enough guy. Make him atheist maybe!

Also something there's not enough of: gay heroes. The only one I can
think of (outside of Watchmen and, er, hehehe, Batman) is Pied Piper,
and he's really only a helpful friend. I'd care about this more if I
was gay...and anyway, probably it would scare off homophobic readers, of
which there are no doubt many. It's probably just the same as a comic
like Black Panther: when you have a minority as the main character, the
writing just has to be that much better. It's a shame, but that's the
way things seem to be.

But there are so many atheist comic fans...why not make the characters
reflect that? At least one or two? Maybe Hawkeye? Or another
avenger...Vision would be good. Anyone! Please? Pretty please?

A

Dwiff

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Sep 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/21/99
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Kurt B. has stated that Tony Stark is an atheist, and I'd bet dollars to donuts
Reed Richards is too. Hawkeye probably, Moonstone.. and given the extrem detail
we get of Peter Parkers life, I'd say he's at least an agnostic. In fact, one
would be better served if they listed the KNOWN religous practices of various
heroes as your more likely to SEE a positive than a negative. (in this context
positive and negative only denote the commision of an act or the omission of
the same act and reflect no religious bias on the basis of this poster)

Hosun Specious Lee

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Sep 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/21/99
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Quasar's an atheist. It factors into a couple stories.

--
\\ \\ Hosun S. Lee // Vorpal Bunny(TM) // http://www.vorpalbunny.com
\\-\\ "The best thing that you can do with your car is to leave the
( 0-0) keys in it in the middle of San Jose, with possibly a sign that
{_^_} says 'steal me, please.' Just don't leave your address or phone
number as they may come back to kill you for unloading such a
lemon!" - Mike Patterson, on why my 97 Chevy Malibu bites.

Andrew Furdell

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Sep 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/21/99
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Dwiff wrote:
>
> Kurt B. has stated that Tony Stark is an atheist

Really?! When and where?!! Kurt, is this true? That's great...I never
would have guessed it about him so much though. Well, he's into the
whole technology/progress/nonmarital sex thing, so I can see that.
Reed Richards makes sense too. Spidey I'm not so sure of...remember, he
was one of the converted during...ahem...the Infinity Crusade...but
maybe that shouldn't count against him. Peter reminds me of me when I
was in elementary school all those years ago, nerdy and not too
accepted, and I turned out atheist, so that would make sense I think. I
would have suggested Moonstone, but she's just too evil...we need good
guys!

A

Andrew Furdell

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Sep 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/21/99
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Hosun Specious Lee wrote:
>
> Quasar's an atheist. It factors into a couple stories.
>

Sure, but like I said: too wimpy. He was all, "oooh, maybe I just
haven't found the religion that's right for me yet." That's not what I
want! I want someone who's willing to say, "No, I don't believe there
is a god," and leave it at that. A super-smart character who relies
more on logic than on faith would be an excellent choice, like Mr
Fantastic. I could just see someone like Mr F saying "Faith is for the
unintellectual. Now, move along, I have to work on this Kirby-esque
device."

A

The Ministry of Disinformation and Popular Enlightenment

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Sep 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/21/99
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On Tue, 21 Sep 1999 14:54:34 -0400, Andrew Furdell <alf...@emory.edu>
wrote:

>Hey, how come there aren't any?

The same reason there's a comics code, the same reason there's no
first-tier gay or black heroes. Northstar? The Black Panther?

Fear of the majority.

Why isn't Superman gay? Why isn't Wonder Woman black? There've been
plenty of reboots to give them the chance to do it.

I'm not judging the fact that they haven't, just speculating as to the
reason.

Alan


---
Please visit my web site at http://www.angelfire.com/on2/thefuture

Hosun Specious Lee

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Sep 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/21/99
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Andrew Furdell <alf...@emory.edu> writes:

No, he very clearly said I don't believe in God, and he disavowed religion
based entirely on logic. In fact, he thought it was a waste of time to
have a priest at his father's funeral. His father was also an atheist as
well.

Tim Frankovich

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Sep 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/21/99
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Well, heck, where's the blatantly Christian superheroes, then?

Sure, there's the occasional cameo by Firebird, a Roman Catholic.

But where's the devoted Protestant Christian heroes? There's a vast number of
Protestants around, far more than there are gays or probably atheists (that's
not intended as a slam of either), so why not? Huh? Huh?

Give me a break.

Tim
-----
Miss the 1980s GI Joe comic books? Check out my online comic/diorama, GI Joe:
Iconoclasts, at www.thebivouac.com!
-----
Finrod on bungie.net
www.crossofvalor.com

Dwiff

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Sep 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/21/99
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<< Well, heck, where's the blatantly Christian superheroes, then?
>>


Which is sort of what I was trying to get at. In the few cases where we are
told of a character's religious leanings it usually stems from an "ethnic"
background ( Catholic, Hebrew) but the mainstream whitebread characters are
complete ciphers in this regard. We can just as easily assume they're all
atheists as they're all scientologists (or would that be Triune
Understanding?). Anyone care to post a list of those characters whose spiritual
beliefs are on record? Of the top of my head:
Firebird: Roman Catholic
Daredevil: Roman Catholic
Nightcrawler: Roman Catholic ( I think...)
Sabra:Hebrew (d'uh)
Quasar: atheist
Storm: murky ill-defined African pagan
Shadowcat: Hebrew

Anybody else?


Todd VerBeek

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Sep 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/21/99
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My pal Andrew Furdell said:
>Hey, how come there aren't any? I think that a lot of comic book
>readers are young atheists (like me, only when I was younger...) I
>really could have used a comic book role model then. All we had was
>Quasar, and he was a really wimpy atheist, with his whole "maybe I
>haven't found the right religion for me" thing. Hey, Kurt Busiek or
>Christopher Priest or Erik Larsen...why not write an atheist hero? Even
>better, how about if you make an already established character atheist?

Actually, there probably =are= a lot of atheist superheroes. The writers
just don't go out of their way to draw attention to them. (Which - to be
fair - is what they usually do with Christian superheroes as well. How
often do you seem them in church, praying, or talking about their
beliefs?) You pretty much need to =infer= who might be atheist from their
background, their general personality, outlook on the world, etc. For
example, unless shown otherwise, I'd assume that most artificial/android
characters are atheist, since their creators aren't The Creator and its
questionable whether they would even have souls.

>Also something there's not enough of: gay heroes. The only one I can
>think of (outside of Watchmen and, er, hehehe, Batman) is Pied Piper,
>and he's really only a helpful friend.

Actually, there are quite a few others. I have a list of the ones I know
of at <http://www.RZero.com/books/gaysuper.html> DC has the most, Marvel
has a handful, Milestone had a few, and the rest are scattered about
randomly.

Cheers, Todd

David O'Brien

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Sep 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/21/99
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Dwiff <dw...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990921181054...@ng-cf1.aol.com...

> Which is sort of what I was trying to get at. In the few cases where we
are
> told of a character's religious leanings it usually stems from an "ethnic"
> background ( Catholic, Hebrew) but the mainstream whitebread characters
are
> complete ciphers in this regard. We can just as easily assume they're all
> atheists as they're all scientologists (or would that be Triune
> Understanding?). Anyone care to post a list of those characters whose
spiritual
> beliefs are on record? Of the top of my head:
> Firebird: Roman Catholic
> Daredevil: Roman Catholic
> Nightcrawler: Roman Catholic ( I think...)
> Sabra:Hebrew (d'uh)
> Quasar: atheist
> Storm: murky ill-defined African pagan
> Shadowcat: Hebrew
>

Thor-duh:)
Wolverine (Could well be wrong)
Pyro- was in what looked to be a catholic church at one stage confessing.
Banshee: He's a walking racial stereotype.He's definatly a catholic.
Jean and Scott-Got married in a church
Captain Britain: married in what looked to me ot be a straight forward
protestant church.


Consul de Designers

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Sep 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/21/99
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Andrew Furdell wrote:
> Dwiff wrote:
> > Kurt B. has stated that Tony Stark is an atheist
> Really?! When and where?!! Kurt, is this true? That's great...I never would
> have guessed it about him so much though. Well, he's into the whole
> technology/progress/nonmarital sex thing, so I can see that.
> Reed Richards makes sense too.

Those three things are some of the most miniscul reasons to not believe
in religion.
--
Consul de Designers,
[Jameson Stalanthas Yu, Shade and Sweet Water, mes amis and Edgerunners]
[Link at http://www-scf.usc.edu/~jamesony -X- ICQ 10208399]
[Joint Educational Project http://www.usc.edu/dept/LAS/JEP]
[Mutatis mutandis, strive to be humane, not human]

Paul O'Brien

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Sep 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/21/99
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In article <37E7D46A...@emory.edu>, Andrew Furdell
<alf...@emory.edu> writes

>Hey, how come there aren't any?

There are. Wolverine, for example. And there's an awful lot of
characters whose religious beliefs (or lack thereof) have never really
been addressed. I choose to assume that a reasonable proportion of
these people are atheists or agnostics who don't talk about their
religion much simply because they don't have one and don't feel the
urge to make a song and dance about it.

Paul O'Brien
http://www.esoterica.demon.co.uk

The law will get there.

Paul O'Brien

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Sep 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/21/99
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In article <19990921153415...@ng-fh1.aol.com>, Dwiff
<dw...@aol.com> writes

>Kurt B. has stated that Tony Stark is an atheist, and I'd bet dollars to donuts
>Reed Richards is too. Hawkeye probably, Moonstone.. and given the extrem detail
>we get of Peter Parkers life, I'd say he's at least an agnostic.

Why do you assume he's agnostic? Non-practising, certainly, but that
doesn't necessarily make him a non-believer.

I'd be surprised if there aren't some vampire stories floating around
somewhere that don't establish Spider-Man as being able to use Christian
symbols against them. (Marvel continuity has it that it's strength of
faith in the symbol that makes them effective, not anything intrinsic
to the symbols themselves.) Moreover, Spider-Man was created as an
everyman figure, and I rather suspect the USA everyman in the 1960s
was probably a Christian.

Dwiff

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Sep 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/21/99
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<< Thor-duh:)
Wolverine (Could well be wrong)
Pyro- was in what looked to be a catholic church at one stage confessing.
Banshee: He's a walking racial stereotype.He's definatly a catholic.
Jean and Scott-Got married in a church
Captain Britain: married in what looked to me ot be a straight forward
protestant church.


>>


And what would Thor's religion be? Self-worship?
Wolverine--what faith?
Banshee-definitely, Pyro I'll take your word for it but
Captain Britain, Cyclops, Phoenix--getting married in a church is no evidence
of belief and practice--its only evidence of a religious background somewhere
in the immediate families, or sense of tradition, not belief.

Dwiff

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Sep 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/21/99
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<< They're not allowed marry unless they have that belief. They swear before
that God that they'll be together forever. What more do you want? In
Catholicism you certainly have to have letters of attendance (Or some
equivalent) to get married.

>>


My mother, raised protestant, became atheist, my father raised Catholic, became
atheist, married in a Catholic church, both still atheist (ysee, the family
thing...)

my best friend, atheist, married in an episcopal church (ysee, the bride's
family thing)

another friend of no religious background married a devout Catholic in a
Catholic ceremony. She (and about a quarter of the guests) took communion, he
(and the rest of us) didn't.

Another friend, non-practicing Jew, married a Catholic, IN ROME, and had only
to promise to raise the children Catholic.

I could go on...

Hosun Specious Lee

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Sep 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/21/99
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Wolverine is not Christian. He may be another faith though. THe reason
being that when he formed a cross to ward off Dracula, it had no affect as
he did not believe.

Andrew Furdell

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Sep 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/21/99
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Paul O'Brien wrote:

> I'd be surprised if there aren't some vampire stories floating around
> somewhere that don't establish Spider-Man as being able to use Christian

> symbols against them. Moreover, Spider-Man was created as an


> everyman figure, and I rather suspect the USA everyman in the 1960s
> was probably a Christian.
>

Actually, I've found that Stan Lee was way ahead of his time back then.
He was pretty liberal, and his good-guy characters were never racist
like in the decades prior. Anyway, to the best of my Spidey knowledge,
he never did anything remotely religious back then, and furthermore his
vampire adventures are too recent to involve the use of Christian
symbols (remember, they couldn't use vampires until after the anti-drug
Green Goblin stories, around ASM #100). Spidey's first vampire
adventure was against Morbius the Living Vampire, and nothing
conventional worked on him.

A

Andrew Furdell

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Sep 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/21/99
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Paul O'Brien wrote:
>
> In article <37E7D46A...@emory.edu>, Andrew Furdell
> <alf...@emory.edu> writes
> >Hey, how come there aren't any?
>
> There are. Wolverine, for example.

No kidding? I don't know my Wolverine/X-history too well, so, when was
this established?

I choose to assume that a reasonable proportion of
> these people are atheists or agnostics who don't talk about their
> religion much simply because they don't have one and don't feel the
> urge to make a song and dance about it.

For me, it doesn't really matter unless they do make a song and dance
about it. There's so many pressures when you're an atheist (especially
a young atheist). One can often feel like an outsider, people look down
on us a lot and tell us we're going to hell...it's no fun, and I'd like
to see that illustrated.

A

Andrew Furdell

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Sep 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/21/99
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I can name a few more:
Living Lightning (Catholic)
Invisible Girl (Christian)
Scarlet Witch (Pagan)
Thor (Norse)
Hercules (Ancient Roman...they count too you know!)
That's all off the top of my head...there's probably more.

A

Dwiff wrote:
>
> << Well, heck, where's the blatantly Christian superheroes, then?
> >>
>

> Which is sort of what I was trying to get at. In the few cases where we are
> told of a character's religious leanings it usually stems from an "ethnic"
> background ( Catholic, Hebrew) but the mainstream whitebread characters are
> complete ciphers in this regard. We can just as easily assume they're all
> atheists as they're all scientologists (or would that be Triune
> Understanding?). Anyone care to post a list of those characters whose spiritual
> beliefs are on record? Of the top of my head:
> Firebird: Roman Catholic
> Daredevil: Roman Catholic
> Nightcrawler: Roman Catholic ( I think...)
> Sabra:Hebrew (d'uh)
> Quasar: atheist
> Storm: murky ill-defined African pagan
> Shadowcat: Hebrew
>

> Anybody else?

Andrew Furdell

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Sep 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/21/99
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Hosun Specious Lee wrote:

> No, he very clearly said I don't believe in God, and he disavowed religion
> based entirely on logic. In fact, he thought it was a waste of time to
> have a priest at his father's funeral. His father was also an atheist as
> well.

I stand corrected. I was basing what I said on the word of an atheist
friend who had the whole Quasar run. I trust both of you; probably
there were some issues where he was more namby-pamby. If his father was
an atheist, there shouldn't have been a priest at the funural; it's not
what he would have wanted.

A

Andrew Furdell

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Sep 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/21/99
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Tim Frankovich wrote:

> Give me a break.

Okayyyy...well, I'll tell you what my mom tells me anytime I complain
that there's no White Male Appreciation Day: "Every day is white male
day." Since the majority of people is religious, it's usually assumed
that the characters are too. And Infinity Crusade, not that it counts,
establishes lots of characters as being religious, especially Invisible
Woman. (I remember Living Lightning being Catholic too).
I mean, you wouldn't say "I want more heterosexual heroes." Because you
assume they are anyway. I want atheist heroes!

A

Andrew Furdell

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Sep 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/21/99
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Consul de Designers wrote:
Well, he's into the whole
> > technology/progress/nonmarital sex thing, so I can see that.
> > Reed Richards makes sense too.
>
> Those three things are some of the most miniscul reasons to not believe
> in religion.
> --

They work for me. When I was younger, it was the denouncement of
Christianity that led me to atheism, and the denouncement of
Christianity came through the disbelief in its moral system (especially
in the idea that nonbelievers would be punished). Therefore it makes
sense to me, you bad speller you.

A

Elmer J. Fudd

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Sep 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/21/99
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Cloak & Dagger are always in a church

David O'Brien wrote:

> Dwiff <dw...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:19990921181054...@ng-cf1.aol.com...
>

> > Which is sort of what I was trying to get at. In the few cases where we
> are
> > told of a character's religious leanings it usually stems from an "ethnic"
> > background ( Catholic, Hebrew) but the mainstream whitebread characters
> are
> > complete ciphers in this regard. We can just as easily assume they're all
> > atheists as they're all scientologists (or would that be Triune
> > Understanding?). Anyone care to post a list of those characters whose
> spiritual
> > beliefs are on record? Of the top of my head:
> > Firebird: Roman Catholic
> > Daredevil: Roman Catholic
> > Nightcrawler: Roman Catholic ( I think...)
> > Sabra:Hebrew (d'uh)
> > Quasar: atheist
> > Storm: murky ill-defined African pagan
> > Shadowcat: Hebrew
> >

Andrew Furdell

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Sep 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/21/99
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> << They're not allowed marry unless they have that belief. They swear before
> that God that they'll be together forever. What more do you want? In
> Catholicism you certainly have to have letters of attendance (Or some
> equivalent) to get married.
>
>>

In a related note, Peter Parker and Mary Jane got married on the steps
of City Hall. Now, excuse me, but I think that if either one of them
was religious, that one would want a church wedding, and the other would
oblige. Hmmm...

A

Steven L Cox

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Sep 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/21/99
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On 21 Sep 1999 23:49:04 GMT, Hosun Specious Lee <ho...@primenet.com>
wrote:

>Wolverine is not Christian. He may be another faith though. THe reason
>being that when he formed a cross to ward off Dracula, it had no affect as
>he did not believe.

Might simply be a lapsed Christian and lacked faith enuf to "trigger"
the symbol. Marvel has made it pretty clear that just about any holy
symbol will work against vampires as long as the possessor truly
believes.

-s-

Steven L Cox

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Sep 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/21/99
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On Tue, 21 Sep 1999 20:30:23 -0400, Andrew Furdell <alf...@emory.edu>
wrote:

>
>

I'd suppose that a good deal of atheists *wouldnt care* about what
goes on at their funeral. Why should they?

-s-

Andrew Furdell

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Sep 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/21/99
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Steven L Cox wrote:

> I'd suppose that a good deal of atheists *wouldnt care* about what
> goes on at their funeral. Why should they?

I care. Even though I don't believe I'll be sentient in any form after
I die, I do care what happens to my body in certain respects (for
instance, I'd rather be buried than creamated, so that my cells could be
reclaimed by the earth). I wouldn't want a priest at my funeral because
that would go against everything I've done in life, it would be
hypocritical. I hate the church! Am I gonna have a church funeral?
Heck no! I've hated the church most of my life, should that change
after death? No way.
A lot of people have all sorts of crazy misconceptions about atheists.
I just heard Dr. Laura Schlesinger on the radio the other day, saying
that only religious people are happy...sigh. ah well.

A

Andrew Furdell

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Sep 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/21/99
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I count Thor and Hercules because...oh Christ, stop making me invoke the
Infinity Crusade! I hated that series! Hated it hated it hated it!
But you keep making me...grrrrrrrr....

Anyway, Thor was one of the ones on the Goddess's side, since he saw a
religious symbol in the sky or whatever in issue 1. Remember? IT had a
gold foil cover! Oooh, sparkly!

I was at DragonCon, and this one place was giving out signed IC#1 or
signed X-Men comic with Magneto removing adamantium issues with
purchases of $5 or more. but anyway, there you go...

A

Dwiff wrote:
>
> << Thor (Norse)
> Hercules (Ancient Roman...they count too you know!) >>
>

> Y'know, I really got to object to people putting Her and Thor down as being
> religious. They are (or were) the OBJECTS of worship, not worshippers
> themselves (at least we've never seen them pray, sacrifice, fast to Odin and
> Zeus). I mean. its not like Thor looks at Herc and says "i'm sorry, I don't
> believe in yoy, I'm Norse." He says "Well met, fellow deity." Being a god, or
> demi god, doesn't preclude either of them from believing, or disbelieving, in
> some "higher deity."

Andrew Furdell

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Sep 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/21/99
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MeanGenes6 wrote:

> Bruce Banner is an Atheist.

Please, PLEASE, what issues are you guys getting these from? I'm very
interested to know! So far people have mentioned Iron Man and Bruce
Banner, but nobody will say where they read this...
By the way, once I read a comic where someone asked Cap what his
religion was. I think he said he didn't affiliate himself with any
church...how very US government of him.

A

Andrew Furdell

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Sep 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/21/99
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BSE wrote:

> Its funny thinking of the majority being religious. here in England its
> only about 10% of the population that ever go to
> church/synagogue/mosque, so its a wierd way of thinking.

I'm ashamed to say that for such a progressive young nation, we're
pretty backwards here in the states. We had slavery a lot longer than
anyone else, and now we still have guns all over the place. But then
again, we're the most powerful country in the world. Maybe it's because
we're so damned big, it takes us longer to progress...

A

Cthulhu

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Sep 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/21/99
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>Bruce Banner is an Atheist.
>I think the Merged Hulk was a Deist (believes in a God, but not in any
>particular religion). I also think the various Hulks believed in a god in
one
>form or another, but Bruce Banner was always the non-believer.


non-belief does not make an atheism automatically, otherwise I'd imagine
a bunch of agnostics would take issue.

And Hulk has many different opinions. That issue where he met Freedom
Force he stated he was agnostic. Mainly because as a scientist he can't
reason why there could be a God, but he says he hopes there is one so
he can ask why he had to suffer all his life and for what reason.

During Marlo's wedding, he accepts Mephisto as the traditional Christian
"devil" and then hypothesizes that if a devil is there, then, a god must
exist
somewhere. This doesn't make him believe, but agnostic.

So, no, sorry, Banner is not atheist.

He's killed before as well, one of the few heroes who has along with
Wolverine, Punisher, Ghost Rider.

Either way, he's pretty much your standard agnostic.

I believe Richards is the same way, but leaning strongly towards atheism. I
seem to recall around
the birth of his kids something along these lines.. perhaps the death of the
2nd child was a
catalyst.

And Stark, I can definately see as atheist, his alcoholism, very narrow
minded when it comes to anything
not purely scientific (see: avengers v3.1-3), etc.

Here's a quick guide for those who don't know the terms...

Agnostic - "They may be, or may not be a God"
Atheist - "There is no God"
Theist - "God exists"

Either way, none of the characters are always portrayed in a consistent
manner and sometimes
they change their views.

Cth


Andrew Furdell

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Sep 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/21/99
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Thanks...I think I'll run out and buy a copy tomorrow...although I don't
really like that run of Hulk. I don't really like any Hulk stuff other
than the old TV show, but maybe I should give him another chance...

A

MeanGenes6 wrote:
>
> >> Bruce Banner is an Atheist.
> >

> >Please, PLEASE, what issues are you guys getting these from?
>

> I believe it was #369. It was during the Grey Hulk run. Hulk vs. Freedom
> Force. Bruce is staying with some family and helping them out and Bruce and
> the Family's father discuss religion and Bruce says he's not a believer.
>
> -MeanGenes
>
> "Violence is good. Violence is funny. Violence is golden."
> -Bruce Campbell

Andrew Furdell

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Sep 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/21/99
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Cthulhu wrote:

> I believe Richards is the same way, but leaning strongly towards atheism.

I don't believe Mr. Fantastic could be an agnostic. He thinks too much
to resort to the agnostic ideal of "I'll never know, so why think about
it?" He's definitely inquisitive and methodical enough to ponder
heavily on the subject, and he's probably smart enough to figure out
just how the universe actually came to be ("It seems we were all created
by a man named Stan Lee...")

> And Stark, I can definately see as atheist, his alcoholism, very narrow
> minded when it comes to anything
> not purely scientific (see: avengers v3.1-3), etc.
>

OK...I only find that mildly offensive I guess...

> Either way, none of the characters are always portrayed in a consistent
> manner and sometimes
> they change their views.

Understandable. A hardcore Christian writer wouldn't enjoy writing an
atheist character so much, no doubt...

A

John Bianco

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Sep 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/21/99
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Andrew Furdell wrote in message <37E85A95...@emory.edu>...
>
>
>DOOM0880 wrote:
>
>> **** Well probably due to the fact that majority of americans and
europeans,
>> and those who mostly read comics are white, straight males.
>
>The hell you say. There has to be a disproportionate amount of certain
>minorities reading comics...it makes perfect sense. Who more than
>homosexuals need an escapist outlet? I'm not sure if I would be reading
>comics if I wasn't atheist and in need of escapism when I was younger.
>Now it's evolved to something else, of course...probably just that I'm
>too wrapped up in the characters, like a housewife with soap operas, and
>maybe a little because I like to organize my collection. Collecting is
>fun. But back then, like in middle school, I think it was all about
>forgetting how miserable my life was due to prejudice.
>

Come on, there is no need to analyze things to death. Anyways, who cares
who is or isint athiest in the MU. I mean come on, this is a universe where
people come back to life all the time, a univeser in which you have immortal
gods like Thor, and you have Franklin Richards who can create a entire
universe, you have human beings that can lift tons.

As for comicbook readership, hate to say this to you, but its
overwhelmingly straight white males. Why do you think that females in
Comicbooks are still usually drawn as being 6 foot 3 with 40DD breasts?


>A

Paul O'Brien

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Sep 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/21/99
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In article <19990921181054...@ng-cf1.aol.com>, Dwiff
<dw...@aol.com> writes

>Storm: murky ill-defined African pagan

Storm appears to be into nature worship, and I think we're supposed to
take it as read that the "Bright Lady" she keeps going on about is an
alternative manifestation of Gaea.

akhnat...@my-deja.com

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Sep 22, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/22/99
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In article <37E7D46A...@emory.edu>,
Andrew Furdell <alf...@emory.edu> wrote:
> Hey, how come there aren't any? I think that a lot of comic book
> readers are young atheists (like me, only when I was younger...) I
> really could have used a comic book role model then. All we had was
> Quasar, and he was a really wimpy atheist, with his whole "maybe I
> haven't found the right religion for me" thing. Hey, Kurt Busiek or
> Christopher Priest or Erik Larsen...why not write an atheist hero?
Even
> better, how about if you make an already established character
>atheist?

Wolverine has been established as a non-believer (this has been
mentioned on a few occasions). The Infinity Crusade mini-series pretty
much defined who were the believers and non-believers (or agnostics)
among the heroes in the MU - it seems about even.


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

David O'Brien

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Sep 22, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/22/99
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Dwiff <dw...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990921185857...@ng-cf1.aol.com...
>

> And what would Thor's religion be? Self-worship?

He IS a god. He'd worship his father as well as love him, like Jesus I'd
assume.

> Wolverine--what faith?

Dunno. Fuzzy memories. Withdrawn:)

> Banshee-definitely, Pyro I'll take your word for it but
>

> Captain Britain, Cyclops, Phoenix--getting married in a church is no
evidence
> of belief and practice--its only evidence of a religious background
somewhere
> in the immediate families, or sense of tradition, not belief.

They're not allowed marry unless they have that belief. They swear before

Grimbiskit

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Sep 22, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/22/99
to
<<Wolverine is not Christian. He may be another faith though. THe reason
being that when he formed a cross to ward off Dracula, it had no affect as
he did not believe.>>

Not to mention he SAID he dint believe in god back in an eraly 80's xmen
annual.

Hosun Specious Lee

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Sep 22, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/22/99
to
Andrew Furdell <alf...@emory.edu> writes:


: Hosun Specious Lee wrote:

: > No, he very clearly said I don't believe in God, and he disavowed religion


: > based entirely on logic. In fact, he thought it was a waste of time to
: > have a priest at his father's funeral. His father was also an atheist as
: > well.

: I stand corrected. I was basing what I said on the word of an atheist
: friend who had the whole Quasar run. I trust both of you; probably
: there were some issues where he was more namby-pamby. If his father was
: an atheist, there shouldn't have been a priest at the funural; it's not
: what he would have wanted.

That was pretty much what happened. Quasar and his father were atheists,
so he thought it was useless to have a priest. THe priest was the idea of
his mother I believe. Your friend is correct in that Quasar's atheism was
never really a big point. It only came to the forefront when his father
died.

It's hard for a guy like Quasar to believe in a God because he casually
interacts with almost-divine beings on a daily basis. And because all of
these entities operate on some logical level for him, he doesn't see the
need for a leap of faith.

This should be a viewpoint that would be more prevalent in the MU, where
Galactus comes by on weekends for lunch.

Dwiff

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Sep 22, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/22/99
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BSE

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Sep 22, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/22/99
to
Tim Frankovich wrote:
>
> Well, heck, where's the blatantly Christian superheroes, then?
>
> Sure, there's the occasional cameo by Firebird, a Roman Catholic.
>
> But where's the devoted Protestant Christian heroes? There's a vast number of
> Protestants around, far more than there are gays or probably atheists (that's
> not intended as a slam of either), so why not? Huh? Huh?

There are more protestants than there are gays?

Hmmmm.
Id realy like to see your gay percentage stats that brought you to this
conclusion.

BSE

--
http://www.ukhiphop.com

BSE

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Sep 22, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/22/99
to
Andrew Furdell wrote:
>
> Tim Frankovich wrote:
>
> > Give me a break.
>
> Okayyyy...well, I'll tell you what my mom tells me anytime I complain
> that there's no White Male Appreciation Day: "Every day is white male
> day." Since the majority of people is religious, it's usually assumed
> that the characters are too.

White male appreciation day. hahahaha.

Its funny thinking of the majority being religious. here in England its
only about 10% of the population that ever go to

church/synagogue/mosque, so its a wierd way of thinking. On that basis
its funny that Captain Britain would be religious.
I think the belief in gods is quite noticeable in the MU but its not
very specific. Still if gods like Thor actually exist in your universe
then why not believe in them

BSE the orthodox atheist.

--
http://www.ukhiphop.com

Tim Frankovich

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Sep 22, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/22/99
to
Andrew Furdell wrote:

>Okayyyy...well, I'll tell you what my mom tells me anytime I complain
>that there's no White Male Appreciation Day: "Every day is white male
>day." Since the majority of people is religious, it's usually assumed

>that the characters are too. And Infinity Crusade, not that it counts,
>establishes lots of characters as being religious, especially Invisible
>Woman. (I remember Living Lightning being Catholic too).
>I mean, you wouldn't say "I want more heterosexual heroes." Because you
>assume they are anyway. I want atheist heroes!

You can assume all you want, but if it's never shown, how can you know that? I
can assume that all the heroes are atheists! There's very little evidence to
indicate otherwise...

Tim
-----
Miss the 1980s GI Joe comic books? Check out my online comic/diorama, GI Joe:
Iconoclasts, at www.thebivouac.com!
-----
Finrod on bungie.net
www.crossofvalor.com

MeanGenes6

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Sep 22, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/22/99
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>I can name a few more:
>Living Lightning (Catholic)
>Invisible Girl (Christian)
>Scarlet Witch (Pagan)
>Thor (Norse)
>Hercules (Ancient Roman...they count too you know!)
>That's all off the top of my head...there's probably more.

Bruce Banner is an Atheist.


I think the Merged Hulk was a Deist (believes in a God, but not in any
particular religion). I also think the various Hulks believed in a god in one
form or another, but Bruce Banner was always the non-believer.

Doc Samson is Jewish.
Betty Banner was Christian.

Tim Frankovich

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Sep 22, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/22/99
to
BSE wrote:

>There are more protestants than there are gays?
>
>Hmmmm.
>Id realy like to see your gay percentage stats that brought you to this
>conclusion.

Pick any stats you want. Most of the studies I've seen range anywhere from 3
to 10% of the population. Protestants are anywhere from 20 to 50% (I think - I
don't have anything immediately handy to back that up, but I know it's far
greater than 10%).

Robert W

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Sep 22, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/22/99
to
On 22 Sep 1999 01:58:22 GMT tim...@aol.comblahblah (Tim Frankovich)
wrote:

> BSE wrote:
>
> >There are more protestants than there are gays?
> >
> >Hmmmm.
> >Id realy like to see your gay percentage stats that brought you to this
> >conclusion.
>
> Pick any stats you want. Most of the studies I've seen range anywhere from 3
> to 10% of the population. Protestants are anywhere from 20 to 50% (I think - I
> don't have anything immediately handy to back that up, but I know it's far
> greater than 10%).
>
> Tim
> -----
**So, do gay Protestants cancel themselves out, or do they get counted
once for each side? ;)
--
Posted via Talkway - http://www.talkway.com
Exchange ideas on practically anything (tm).


JARJR2

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Sep 22, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/22/99
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Anyone care to post a list of those characters whose spiritual
beliefs are on record?>>

Justice-Jewish (kind of iffy...he doesn't really believe anymore so he may
actually be atheist..according to NW #58-59)

Speedball-Presbyterian (he made an off hand remark in NW #35)

Timeslip-Hindu (considering she actually wears the red dot on her head)

Silhouette-Catholic (NW #7)

Songbird-Jewish (well that's what kurt said once but it never has been actually
stated...but with the 2 last names she has had Schwartz and Gold it's kind of
obvious)

JARJR2

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Sep 22, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/22/99
to
They're not allowed marry unless they have that belief. They swear before
that God that they'll be together forever. What more do you want? In
Catholicism you certainly have to have letters of attendance (Or some
equivalent) to get married.>>

Since when? My dad is a hard core atheist and was when he knocked up mom. He
had no problems getting married.

MeanGenes6

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Sep 22, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/22/99
to
>> Bruce Banner is an Atheist.
>
>Please, PLEASE, what issues are you guys getting these from?

I believe it was #369. It was during the Grey Hulk run. Hulk vs. Freedom
Force. Bruce is staying with some family and helping them out and Bruce and
the Family's father discuss religion and Bruce says he's not a believer.

Dwiff

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Sep 22, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/22/99
to
<< And Stark, I can definately see as atheist, his alcoholism, >>


Ex-squeeze me? His alcoholism? What in heck does being an aloholic have o do
with religious belief? There's plenty of christian alcoholics...

Hosun Specious Lee

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Sep 22, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/22/99
to
DOOM0880 <doom...@aol.com> writes:
: Quasar's an atheist. It factors into a couple stories.


: **** No Quasar was just confused, he hadn't found anything that fit him right,
: but meeting the Living Tribunal I'm sure he believes in some ultimate.

Saying he doesn't believe in God is pretty definitive.

DOOM0880

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Sep 22, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/22/99
to
Someone shouldn't believe in an ultimate, if you want to call it God, or
whatever, just because of religion. Religion is relative. You don't have to
belive technology is bad and crap to believe in GOD, or whatever you wish to
call it. I mean the view of an anthropomorphic God is a metaphor, not a solid
belief. Not trying to be a convert, just trying to show that religion doesn't
equal belief.

DOOM0880

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Sep 22, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/22/99
to
and I'd bet dollars to donuts
Reed Richards is too

**** Reed has expressed belief in some sort of higher power.

DOOM0880

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Sep 22, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/22/99
to

DOOM0880

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Sep 22, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/22/99
to
Why isn't Superman gay? Why isn't Wonder Woman black? There've been
plenty of reboots to give them the chance to do it.

I'm not judging the fact that they haven't, just speculating as to the
reason.

**** Well probably due to the fact that majority of americans and europeans,

and those who mostly read comics are white, straight males. Comics were brought
up on that in the more conservative 30's. I mean it's by percentage of
readership. I do agree though that comics should be more ethnically, and
religiously diverse, I mean New York City isn't exactly Utah.

Andrew Furdell

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Sep 22, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/22/99
to

DOOM0880 wrote:

> **** Well probably due to the fact that majority of americans and europeans,
> and those who mostly read comics are white, straight males.

The hell you say. There has to be a disproportionate amount of certain


minorities reading comics...it makes perfect sense. Who more than
homosexuals need an escapist outlet? I'm not sure if I would be reading
comics if I wasn't atheist and in need of escapism when I was younger.
Now it's evolved to something else, of course...probably just that I'm
too wrapped up in the characters, like a housewife with soap operas, and
maybe a little because I like to organize my collection. Collecting is
fun. But back then, like in middle school, I think it was all about
forgetting how miserable my life was due to prejudice.

A

DOOM0880

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Sep 22, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/22/99
to
Quasar: atheist

**** Quasar is more of unsure, not set as an athiest. Luminator is a Catholic,
Shamrock is, hell I even saw Thor go in a church and knewwl down and say that
there is an even higher power than Odin, which is a real moment.

DOOM0880

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Sep 22, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/22/99
to
Rick and Marlo Jones got married by Peter David at a church. No kidding!!

DOOM0880

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Sep 22, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/22/99
to
I don't believe Mr. Fantastic could be an agnostic. He thinks too much
to resort to the agnostic ideal of "I'll never know, so why think about
it?" He's definitely inquisitive and methodical enough to ponder
heavily on the subject, and he's probably smart enough to figure out
just how the universe actually came to be ("It seems we were all created
by a man named Stan Lee...")

**** And you said the Stark comment was offensive to you. You are basically
saying Theists don't think too much, and any smart person is an athiest.

Grimbiskit

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Sep 22, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/22/99
to
<< Quasar is more of unsure, not set as an athiest. >>


So that means he's agnostic.

DOOM0880

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Sep 22, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/22/99
to
Why is it everyone tries to impose their beliefs upon comic book characters.
There was a discussion over on Alvaro's boards with a bunch of people using
dumb logic to make everyone look like they are having sex, and then a bunch
here imposing athiesm upon characters. Don't make assumptions. When you assume
you make an ass out of you....

Andrew Furdell

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Sep 22, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/22/99
to

DOOM0880 wrote:
I even saw Thor go in a church and knewwl down and say that
> there is an even higher power than Odin, which is a real moment.

THE HELL YOU SAY. I believe you, but I think that must be some of the
most self-serving comic book writing ever. That really makes me mad.

A

Andrew Furdell

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Sep 22, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/22/99
to

DOOM0880 wrote:
When you make assumptions


> you make an ass out of you....

...and mptions?

Haha, actually I fooled around with your quote a little to do that.
It's funny though, heehee.
I don't think we're imposing our beliefs on the characters. We're
drawing on our extensive comic book knowledge to hypothesize
possibilities. Leave us alone.

A

Andrew Furdell

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Sep 22, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/22/99
to

DOOM0880 wrote:
>
> I don't believe Mr. Fantastic could be an agnostic. He thinks too much
> to resort to the agnostic ideal of "I'll never know, so why think about
> it?"

> **** And you said the Stark comment was offensive to you. You are basically


> saying Theists don't think too much, and any smart person is an athiest.

Haha, nice try, but you lose. I said Mr. F thinks too much to be
AGNOSTIC. On a related note, I do think that Mr F is analytical rather
than emotional, which points him in the atheist direction, because hey:
Christianity drives on faith, atheism does not. Is that inoffensive
enough for you?
And yes, I am offended by the idea that an alcoholic is probably
atheist. Is a carjacker probably black? Would you ever say that in a
public forum?

A

BSE

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Sep 22, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/22/99