Marvel people in Spider Man 2
Hulcap
Are there any other Marvel Characters in Spider Man 2? That is superheroes or
villians that did not appear in the original and/or artist or writers. Just
curious. Would love to see a cameo from a villian that would be the basis for
number 3. One villian for a $200 Mil movie may not be enough.
skyking
Lee Orlando
gig, someone (forget who ) says that Eddie was supposed to have some
pictures ready( or something like that ).Anyway, thats a clear
foreshadowing to Venom. With Spidey 3 supposedly going to have Venom in
it , then maybe Spidey 2 we'll actually get to see Eddie Brock wich will
then set it up for part 3! Just a theory , but that would be cool!
Alex Peckover
news:13477-40D...@storefull-3235.bay.webtv.net
The IMDB lists Dylan Baker as Dr. Curt Connors amongst the cast, but
obviously I would prefer Eddie Brock.
Alex
Nathan P. Mahney
Hulcap <hul...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040623221407...@mb-m29.aol.com...
One villain per superhero movie is plenty, regardless of budget. There are
not many superhero movies that have benefitted from having more than one
villain.
- Nathan P. Mahney -
W. Blaine Dowler
> One villain per superhero movie is plenty, regardless of budget. There
> are not many superhero movies that have benefitted from having more than
> one villain.
I'd like to see some hint at where the story is going, but one conflict is
certainly enough. They could use this to set up Harry as a new Green
Goblin, for example, as long as Doctor Octopus is the only character who
appears as a super-villain this time around.
Sam Raimi has rejected scripts with multiple supervillains twice now,
because he doesn't think that would give him enough time to deal with the
characters properly.
--
- Blaine
http://www.bureau42.com
ICQ: 24893016
"The simplest schoolboy is now familiar with truths for which
Archimedes would have sacrificed his life."
- Ernest Renan (1823-92), French philosopher and theologian.
stace
"W. Blaine Dowler" <wdo...@NOSPAMualberta.ca> wrote in message
news:COzCc.879958$Ig.78610@pd7tw2no...
When they first put up the full trailer a few months ago I posted in here
about how they had revealed the entire story, which I then "connected the
dots" and laid out what I thought it was gonna be.
Anyone with a working knowledge of Spidey's history knows what HAS to happen
at the end of this one, to set up for the next one.
And if you can't figure that out, look at the last 5 pages of the
novelization that's in stores now.
I won't spoil anything this close to release now, but it's all out there
already,.....
stace
Peter Dimitriadis
:
: One villain per superhero movie is plenty, regardless of budget. There are
: not many superhero movies that have benefitted from having more than one
: villain.
While I agree we don't always _need_ a second villain, there are times
when I think it can work naturally.
When the Lizard was proposed for S2, I could see it working... because
although he'd be a danger to Spidey, he wouldn't strictly be a villain...
he'd be a scientist that Peter Parker knows and is trying to help, but in
the meantime he's got a _real_ villain to take care of. I could see that
easily making a good plot in the movie, balancing the conflicting
responsibilities.
Also, if you're dealing with a mastermind or Kingpin (which we know
won't happen since they sold Kingpin's rights with Daredevil, but let's
pretend), then having him throw multiple low-level villains at Spider-Man
could also work. The real villain is the Kingpin, the rest are just
fodder for making entertaining fight scenes.
I must confess though, there's a fanboy inside of me wishing for a
'Spider Man 6' featuring The Sinister Six, somewhere in 2015 or so.
Peter Dimitriadis
Lynley James
wrote:
That scene occurs between Robbie and JJJ the first time we see them
IIRC. I really hope they stay away from Venom, he's just too damn
boring as a villian.
Lynley
bernie...@hotmail.com
Spider-man isn't about the villian, it's about Peter's struggles being
Spider-man. Tho, I can't wait to see the Hobgoblin on the big screen
some day !
Nathan P. Mahney
<bernie...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9fed2bda.04062...@posting.google.com...
Yes, you're right. But with more villains added, Peter would lose screen
time and the focus would be lost.
I agree with other posters that hench-villains are a certain possibility.
Rhino, Sandman, or Electro could easily fit that bill and provide little
more than a cool action sequence and a bonus for the fanboys. I've been
saying for years that Bruce Campbell should be playing Electro.
M-Wolverine
Groovy idea.
Chris C.
M-Wolverine
Why would you read the last 5 pages of the book so close to release of
the movie? Frankly, why would you read it at all before you've seen
it...
Chris C.
Jon Yeager
> Spider-man. Tho, I can't wait to see the Hobgoblin on the big screen
> some day !
Why would you be excited about that after seeing how they portrayed the
Green Goblin in the first movie?
A Sam Raimi Hobgoblin would look more like Robocop than Ned Leeds' alter
ego.
chuck
"Jon Yeager" <nos...@please.com> wrote in message
news:I3ZCc.34514$_n2.7...@weber.videotron.net...
by the Foreigner's men.. how could someone capable of fighting toe to toe
with spider-man be killed by 6 normal humans?
MCheu
wrote:
That's assuming they go with the original incarnation. As far as I
know there was at least one other (a merc, with cyber enhancements)
that actually would make more sense for a movie -- and yes, I guess
the cyber enhancements do make him a bit robocop-like. Thing is,
given how visually similar this guy is to GG, he's likely not going to
make the movie role call.
I'm thinking Venom for Spidey3. The slick black oil symbiote is just
perfect for CGI, and he's an old favorite. Origin's going to need
heavy changes though.
Carnage can pretty much be scratched off the list. His MO is just way
too gorey for this sort of movie, and his red symbiote pretty much
makes him look like he's perpetually drenched in blood.
---------------------------------------------
MCheu
Daibhid Ceannaideach
>From: MCheu mpc...@yahoo.com
>Date: 25/06/04 21:00 GMT Daylight Time
>Message-id: <ctvod01bvp823va44...@4ax.com>
>
>On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 13:15:24 -0400, "Jon Yeager" <nos...@please.com>
>wrote:
>
>><bernie...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:9fed2bda.04062...@posting.google.com...
>>>
>>> Spider-man isn't about the villian, it's about Peter's struggles being
>>> Spider-man. Tho, I can't wait to see the Hobgoblin on the big screen
>>> some day !
>>
>>Why would you be excited about that after seeing how they portrayed the
>>Green Goblin in the first movie?
>>
>>A Sam Raimi Hobgoblin would look more like Robocop than Ned Leeds' alter
>>ego.
>>
>
>That's assuming they go with the original incarnation. As far as I
>know there was at least one other (a merc, with cyber enhancements)
>that actually would make more sense for a movie -- and yes, I guess
>the cyber enhancements do make him a bit robocop-like. Thing is,
>given how visually similar this guy is to GG, he's likely not going to
>make the movie role call.
>
>I'm thinking Venom for Spidey3. The slick black oil symbiote is just
>perfect for CGI, and he's an old favorite. Origin's going to need
>heavy changes though.
I reckon Ultimate Venom's origin would probably work. Maybe mix'n'match; have
the symbiote as a creation of Richard Parker, but leave Eddie Brock as a jerk
reporter who blames Spider-Man for his failure. How those two come together...
is a job for a professional writer 8-).
--
Dave
The Official Absentee of EU Skiffeysoc
http://www.eusa.ed.ac.uk/societies/sesoc
Egret: An apology sent by computer.
-Andy Hamilton, I'm Sorry I Haven't A Clue
Jon Yeager
news:10dorfd...@corp.supernews.com...
> > ego.
> >
> Umm Ned Leeds wasn't the Hobgoblin... that was established he was murdered
> by the Foreigner's men.. how could someone capable of fighting toe to toe
> with spider-man be killed by 6 normal humans?
What writer came along and undid THIS piece of Spidey history while I wasn't
looking?
Ned Leeds was the original Hobgoblin. His death at the hands of 6 "normal
humans" as you call them is part of what made that entire arc one of the
greatest in Spiderman history. It was a supremely well-written period in
Spiderman history, and much more intriguing and memorable than having him
die in a spectacular battle vs Spiderman on top of the Empire State
building.
Jason Philip Macendale, formerly Jack O'Lantern, picked up the gimmick after
coming across one of the late Ned Leeds' secret hangouts. Eventually,
Macendale became "undead" and instead of being a human in funny clothing
(which is what Harry Osborne and Ned Leeds were) he was a true demon (circa
Todd McFarlane's run).
So again I ask... since when was Ned Leeds NOT the Hobgoblin, and what
writer is responsible for undoing one of the greatest and most suspenseful
arcs in Spiderman history?
R. Tang
Jon Yeager <nos...@please.com> wrote:
>"chuck" <chuck...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:10dorfd...@corp.supernews.com...
>>
>> "Jon Yeager" <nos...@please.com> wrote in message
>>
>> > A Sam Raimi Hobgoblin would look more like Robocop than Ned Leeds' alter
>> > ego.
>> >
>> Umm Ned Leeds wasn't the Hobgoblin... that was established he was murdered
>> by the Foreigner's men.. how could someone capable of fighting toe to toe
>> with spider-man be killed by 6 normal humans?
>
>What writer came along and undid THIS piece of Spidey history while I wasn't
>looking?
Roger Stern, creator of the Hobgoblin.
--
-
-Roger Tang, gwan...@u.washington.edu, Artistic Director PC Theatre
- Editor, Asian American Theatre Revue [NEW URL][Yes, it IS new]
- http://www.aatrevue.com
Matthew Park Park
There was a miniseries done a while back (mid 90's?) where it
was revealed that Ned Leeds was mind controlled by the "real" Hobgoblin,
who came back and killed Macendale, i believe. Personally I didn't think
it was that bad a miniseries, but I didn't read the original Hobgoblin
stories, so I don't know how bad they mucked things up.
Also, what issue was Ned Leeds killed? I read a Spidey/Wolverine
miniseries one time that took place during the time in Germany when Ned
was killed (and i think they said he was killed due to Spidey's meddling
in Wolverine's affairs) and it seemed weird to me that they would reveal
his death in a miniseries where it didn't have that much to do with the
main plot.
chuck
"Matthew Park Park" <mpp...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.58-035....@unix44.andrew.cmu.edu...
The Original Hobgoblin was Roderick Kingsley who set up Ned Leeds to be
believed to be the Hobgoblin.
MackBeer
>"stace" <amp_c...@hotmail.corm> wrote in message news:<40daf47b$1...@news3.accesscomm.ca>...
>> "W. Blaine Dowler" <wdo...@NOSPAMualberta.ca> wrote in message
>> news:COzCc.879958$Ig.78610@pd7tw2no...
>> > Nathan P. Mahney wrote:
>> >
>> >> One villain per superhero movie is plenty, regardless of budget. There
>> >> are not many superhero movies that have benefitted from having more than
>> >> one villain.
>> >
>> > I'd like to see some hint at where the story is going, but one conflict is
>> > certainly enough. They could use this to set up Harry as a new Green
>> > Goblin, for example, as long as Doctor Octopus is the only character who
>> > appears as a super-villain this time around.
>> >
>> > Sam Raimi has rejected scripts with multiple supervillains twice now,
>> > because he doesn't think that would give him enough time to deal with the
>> > characters properly.
i would love to see some other characters swooping by....this is the Marvel Universe after all. a quick glimpse of the
Avengers perhaps....X-Men...the Latverian Embassy..the Baxter Building...the new one....just a glimpse to show us that
this is the Marvel UNIVERSE...and spidey aint alone...
Todd
>The IMDB lists Dylan Baker as Dr. Curt Connors amongst the cast, but
>obviously I would prefer Eddie Brock.
I don't think Venom should appear until something like episode 7. The
Lizard is a classic villain, so he'd be appropriate for ep 3.
Todd
>i would love to see some other characters swooping by....this is the Marvel Universe after all. a quick glimpse of the
>Avengers perhaps....X-Men...the Latverian Embassy..the Baxter Building...the new one....just a glimpse to show us that
>this is the Marvel UNIVERSE...and spidey aint alone...
How about, Pete's taken Mary Jane to lunch, when his Spider-sense goes
off mildly. He looks around, and all we see are Hugh Jackman and
Haile Barry sitting at another table (in character, but not costume,
of course).
Or maybe the guy who played Bruce Banner working as a janitor at a lab
complex (along the lines of Bixby's Banner).
Todd
>I must confess though, there's a fanboy inside of me wishing for a
>'Spider Man 6' featuring The Sinister Six, somewhere in 2015 or so.
Who are the classic Six? Doesn't usually include the Goblin; but does
include Otto. Also Electro, Sandman, Vulture?
Should the Vulture get his own (Spidey) movie? Or should he be taken
down at the start of a movie?
Daibhid Ceannaideach
Date: 26/06/04 22:13 GMT Daylight Time
>yu23...@yorku.ca (Peter Dimitriadis) wrote:
>
>>I must confess though, there's a fanboy inside of me wishing for a
>>'Spider Man 6' featuring The Sinister Six, somewhere in 2015 or so.
>
>
>Who are the classic Six? Doesn't usually include the Goblin; but does
>include Otto. Also Electro, Sandman, Vulture?
Yep. The Classic Sinister Six are:
Dr Octopus
Electro
Sandman
Vulture
Mysterio
Kraven
Varient Sinister Sixes that I recall seem to be any five of these plus a Goblin
(usually Hob-, rather than Green), or in one case Venom.
Alex Peckover
news:l3prd0pte5spli2u2...@4ax.com
By the time we get to Spider-Man 7 the box office gross will be something
like $10.
Alex
Jon Yeager
news:Pine.LNX.4.58-035....@unix44.andrew.cmu.edu...
>
> was revealed that Ned Leeds was mind controlled by the "real" Hobgoblin,
> who came back and killed Macendale, i believe. Personally I didn't think
> it was that bad a miniseries, but I didn't read the original Hobgoblin
> stories, so I don't know how bad they mucked things up.
It might not have fucked anything up at all, other than the fact that
whoever is behind this miniseries just negated what I believe amounted to
over a couple of years' worth of suspense and drama. The question of who was
the Hobgoblin was probably one of the biggest in Spiderman history, and they
milked it for all it was worth. They had you thinking it was Lance Bannon;
then, Flash Thompson originally was exposed as the Hobgoblin, but we later
found out he was set up. Then, after what seemed like an eternity, when they
had milked Hobgoblin for all he was worth, they finally revealed it was Ned
Leeds, killed the character off, and closed that chapter of Spiderman's
history. And they had teased us so much with the Hobgoblin identity thing
that when he was finally revealed for real, I remember seeing a "This is not
a swerve! Finally, the REAL thing!" disclaimer on the cover.
The big payoff to one of the longest running and most exciting arcs in
comics history.
And some guy comes along a couple of years later and decides that Ned Leeds
WASN'T the Hobgoblin, and he was mind-controlled all along?
And they wonder why people stop buying these things when they hit 18?
> Also, what issue was Ned Leeds killed? I read a Spidey/Wolverine
> miniseries one time that took place during the time in Germany when Ned
> was killed (and i think they said he was killed due to Spidey's meddling
> in Wolverine's affairs) and it seemed weird to me that they would reveal
> his death in a miniseries where it didn't have that much to do with the
> main plot.
You know, as much as I can recall every detail of what happened, I can't
remember when exactly the arc concluded in the regular title. I remember the
same graphic novel you do, and Leeds did indeed die in that graphic novel. I
believe that the same month the graphic novel came out (or the one following
it), that issue of ASM started with the Bugle staff grieving Leeds' death at
the airport, on the way back from Germany.
That's when we found out who those people who killed Leeds/Hobgoblin were.
They were sent by the Foreigner, who himself was hired by Jason Philip
Macendale -- aka Jack O'Lantern -- who was jealous of the Hobgoblin but
couldn't take him on by himself. When Leeds was killed, all of Hobgoblin's
possessions were sent to Macendale -- who used them to become the Hobgoblin
himself... albeit a lesser, more cowardly version of him, that Spiderman
easily disposed of everytime they met. Spidey knew who this new Hobgoblin
was, and taunted him constantly for being a hack and a wannabe.
Eventually, Macendale sold his soul to demons (possibly during Inferno) and
became a REAL Hobgoblin, something Todd "I Never Met A Demon I Didn't Like"
McFarlane had a field day with in his newly-launched Spiderman title (a
title where Todd could treat every existing character like they were Spawn).
But I digress.
You can see how frustrating it is to learn that someone undid all of this,
and made that whole "payoff" to years of suspense and speculation completely
worthless.
Whoever that writer who re-wrote Hobgoblin history is, is helping to make a
strong case for writers to OWN their created characters as long as they are
alive.
C Tanforan
>
> Whoever that writer who re-wrote Hobgoblin history is, is helping to
> make a strong case for writers to OWN their created characters as long
> as they are alive.
>
>
Yep, the nerve of that Roger Stern fellow, rewriting the history of the
Hobgoblin! I pity the poor writer who originally created this fine
character, only to have all of their hard work later invalidated. There
oughta be a law!
Chris
lkseitz .at. hiwaay
Jon Yeager <nos...@please.com> wrote:
>It might not have fucked anything up at all, other than the fact that
>whoever is behind this miniseries just negated what I believe amounted to
>over a couple of years' worth of suspense and drama. The question of who was
>the Hobgoblin was probably one of the biggest in Spiderman history, and they
>milked it for all it was worth.
[snip]
>Whoever that writer who re-wrote Hobgoblin history is, is helping to make a
>strong case for writers to OWN their created characters as long as they are
>alive.
Yes, I suppose he does, since it was Roger Stern who was behind the
_Hobgoglin Lives_ limited series. The very same guy who *created the
Hobgoblin*!
You know, the very same guy who gave you "over a couple of years'
worth of suspense and drama." The very same guy that was pulled from
the Spider-Man books before he could reveal the Hobgoblin's real
identity, which he had masterminded in the first place. So someone
else, who was not in on the Stern's secret, could make a revelation
that they had nothing to do with building up to.
Try checking your facts before your next tirade.
--
lkseitz (Lee K. Seitz) .at. hiwaay @dot@ net
"In spite of everything I still believe that people are really good at
heart."
-- Anne Frank (translated by B. M. Mooyart)
Jon Yeager
<lkseitz (Lee K. Seitz) .at. hiwaay @dot@ net> wrote in message
news:10e32sq...@corp.supernews.com...
Do you always take things so personally? Normally, I would just say "oops",
but your attitude would rather have me respond "relax". So I didn't know it
was the same guy... should I hang my head in shame? Perform somekind of
penance? Are you the Simpson's Comic Book Guy in disguise?
Your unnecessary arrogance notwithstanding, I find all of this quite
fascinating. So you're saying Stern - who created the Hobgoblin - was
building towards something and got pulled from the book before he could
finish it? And in his absence, Marvel concluded his arc for him?
At what point in this arc was he pulled? Before or after the Gang Wars and
the Rose association? Before or after Ned Leeds started abusing his wife?
Actually, if someone less condescending could clue me in, I'd much
appreciate it. I didn't know Stern created Hobgoblin, much less undid the
work of his replacement the first chance he got.
I loved the Hobgoblin / Gang Wars / Ned Leeds storyline, and I'd really like
to know what to credit to whom. Did Stern get pulled at the very last
minute, or could a large chunk of that storyline be credited to someone
else? If it turns out Stern only created the character and someone else is
to credit for everything I liked about him, then I may very well revise my
position on writers owning their characters.
Then again, this could be a rare case of a writer doing an excellent job,
and his replacement doing an equally excellent job.
NedLeedsjr
><mpp...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote in message
>news:Pine.LNX.4.58-035....@unix44.andrew.cmu.edu...
>>
>> There was a miniseries done a while back (mid 90's?) where it
>> was revealed that Ned Leeds was mind controlled by the "real" Hobgoblin,
>> who came back and killed Macendale, i believe. Personally I didn't think
>> it was that bad a miniseries, but I didn't read the original Hobgoblin
>> stories, so I don't know how bad they mucked things up.
>
>It might not have fucked anything up at all, other than the fact that
>whoever is behind this miniseries just negated what I believe amounted to
>over a couple of years' worth of suspense and drama. The question of who was
>the Hobgoblin was probably one of the biggest in Spiderman history, and they
>milked it for all it was worth. They had you thinking it was Lance Bannon;
>then, Flash Thompson originally was exposed as the Hobgoblin, but we later
>found out he was set up. Then, after what seemed like an eternity, when they
>had milked Hobgoblin for all he was worth, they finally revealed it was Ned
>Leeds, killed the character off, and closed that chapter of Spiderman's
>history. And they had teased us so much with the Hobgoblin identity thing
>that when he was finally revealed for real, I remember seeing a "This is not
>a swerve! Finally, the REAL thing!" disclaimer on the cover.
>
>The big payoff to one of the longest running and most exciting arcs in
>comics history.
>
>And some guy comes along a couple of years later and decides that Ned Leeds
>WASN'T the Hobgoblin, and he was mind-controlled all along?
>
>And they wonder why people stop buying these things when they hit 18?
You are incorrect. Roger Stern wrote the mini-series. He was the creator of the
Hobgoblin and was the only one who knew his secret identity. Stern never even
told his editors!! He left the book before the identity story was written and
was the first to say that Ned Leeds was never meant to be the Hobgoblin to
begin with.... years' before the mini was put out. :)
>> Also, what issue was Ned Leeds killed? I read a Spidey/Wolverine
>> miniseries one time that took place during the time in Germany when Ned
>> was killed (and i think they said he was killed due to Spidey's meddling
>> in Wolverine's affairs) and it seemed weird to me that they would reveal
>> his death in a miniseries where it didn't have that much to do with the
>> main plot.
>
>You know, as much as I can recall every detail of what happened, I can't
>remember when exactly the arc concluded in the regular title. I remember the
>same graphic novel you do, and Leeds did indeed die in that graphic novel. I
>believe that the same month the graphic novel came out (or the one following
>it), that issue of ASM started with the Bugle staff grieving Leeds' death at
>the airport, on the way back from Germany.
Leeds was killed in the Spider-Man/Wolverine one-shot.
>That's when we found out who those people who killed Leeds/Hobgoblin were.
>They were sent by the Foreigner, who himself was hired by Jason Philip
>Macendale -- aka Jack O'Lantern -- who was jealous of the Hobgoblin but
>couldn't take him on by himself. When Leeds was killed, all of Hobgoblin's
>possessions were sent to Macendale -- who used them to become the Hobgoblin
>himself... albeit a lesser, more cowardly version of him, that Spiderman
>easily disposed of everytime they met. Spidey knew who this new Hobgoblin
>was, and taunted him constantly for being a hack and a wannabe.
Peter David was the one who told the Ned Leeds?hobgoblin story. All we knew
from Leeds' death was that he had been killed in Germany. Spidey assumed it was
due to his involvement with terrorists, but PAD wrote in that he was the
Hobgoblin.
>Eventually, Macendale sold his soul to demons (possibly during Inferno) and
>became a REAL Hobgoblin, something Todd "I Never Met A Demon I Didn't Like"
>McFarlane had a field day with in his newly-launched Spiderman title (a
>title where Todd could treat every existing character like they were Spawn).
>
>But I digress.
>
>You can see how frustrating it is to learn that someone undid all of this,
>and made that whole "payoff" to years of suspense and speculation completely
>worthless.
>
>Whoever that writer who re-wrote Hobgoblin history is, is helping to make a
>strong case for writers to OWN their created characters as long as they are
>alive.
Stern wrote this and did not "rewrite" it as this was his creation and his
story to tell.
Jon Yeager
Guys from the woodwork, ain't it?
And then you guys wonder why no one in this group will concede anything to
anyone else. Look at how quickly you pounce when someone slips up and you
get the slightest wiff of fresh blood.
Does someone else want to insert their own sarcastic / condescending remark?
For those of you just tuning in, I didn't know Roger Stern created the
Hobgoblin.
Surely someone else wants to take a stab at the body?
"C Tanforan" <ta...@tepidmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9517542...@130.133.1.4...
NedLeedsjr
>Wow, that admitted mistake of mine sure is pulling out all the Comic Book
>Guys from the woodwork, ain't it?
>
>And then you guys wonder why no one in this group will concede anything to
>anyone else. Look at how quickly you pounce when someone slips up and you
>get the slightest wiff of fresh blood.
>
>Does someone else want to insert their own sarcastic / condescending remark?
>For those of you just tuning in, I didn't know Roger Stern created the
>Hobgoblin.
I'm not just tuning in, but I hadn't noticed sarcastic remarks from anyone. I
must have missed the one oyu cut and pasted. Were there others?
lkseitz .at. hiwaay
Jon Yeager <nos...@please.com> wrote:
>
>Do you always take things so personally? Normally, I would just say "oops",
>but your attitude would rather have me respond "relax".
I'm sorry, but your long tirade came across as very clueless and the
power of the anonmity of the 'net gets to me like that sometimes. If
you'd said that to me in the real world, I'd have probably just said,
"you do realize Roger Stern, the creator of the Hobgoblin, wrote that
limited series, right?" Sorry I got carried away.
>So I didn't know it was the same guy... should I hang my head in shame?
Yes. 8)
>Are you the Simpson's Comic Book Guy in disguise?
Sometimes. 8)
>Your unnecessary arrogance notwithstanding, I find all of this quite
>fascinating. So you're saying Stern - who created the Hobgoblin - was
>building towards something and got pulled from the book before he could
>finish it? And in his absence, Marvel concluded his arc for him?
Something like that. Stern kept the secret to himself. I'm uncertain
of the hows and whys of him leaving the Spider-Man titles at the time,
but he'd handled the Hobgoblin for two years when he left. I just
found (but haven't read in full) a good series of articles about the
whole Hobgoblin mystery:
http://www.spideykicksbutt.com/SquanderedLegacy/SquanderedLegacyTitle.html
I think it'll answer most of your questions.
>Actually, if someone less condescending could clue me in, I'd much
>appreciate it. I didn't know Stern created Hobgoblin, much less undid the
>work of his replacement the first chance he got.
Sad that the first chance he got was ten years later, eh?
--
lkseitz (Lee K. Seitz) .at. hiwaay @dot@ net
"Spider-Man, Spider-Man
Does whatever a spider can"
-- Bob Harris, "Spider-Man" (1967)
Steve-o Stonebraker
> Do you always take things so personally? Normally, I would just say "oops",
> but your attitude would rather have me respond "relax". So I didn't know it
> was the same guy... should I hang my head in shame? Perform somekind of
> penance? Are you the Simpson's Comic Book Guy in disguise?
Based on your own excitability as demonstrated here and in the post in
which you made an error, I think you might need to "relax" as well. You
just finished an angry rant about the integrity of the Hobgoblin mystery
being destroyed by a retcon, and now you accuse somebody *else* of being
CBG-esque? I agree that his response was a little harsh, but, you've been
making a lot of unnecessarily harsh posts yourself from what I've seen.
Follow your own advice, and don't things (comic stories and people
pointing out errors, for example) so personally.
--Steve-o
--
Steve Stonebraker | http://www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~sstoneb/
sst...@yahoo.com | Transformers, astrophysics, comics, games, cartoons.
C Tanforan
> Wow, that admitted mistake of mine sure is pulling out all the Comic
> Book Guys from the woodwork, ain't it?
>
> And then you guys wonder why no one in this group will concede
> anything to anyone else. Look at how quickly you pounce when someone
> slips up and you get the slightest wiff of fresh blood.
>
> Does someone else want to insert their own sarcastic / condescending
> remark? For those of you just tuning in, I didn't know Roger Stern
> created the Hobgoblin.
>
> Surely someone else wants to take a stab at the body?
>
My apologies, no real offense was meant...I was just mildly amused at the
fact that someone would write such a long tirade without knowing just
what it was they were railing against. My reply came out a bit harsher
than I'd intended...chalk it up to me neglecting to use a smiley. So
sorry about that, and I'll try to be a better proofreader in the future.
Chris
Jon Yeager
> "Jon Yeager" <nos...@please.com> wrote in
> news:rkhEc.123365$rt5.1...@wagner.videotron.net:
>
> > Wow, that admitted mistake of mine sure is pulling out all the Comic
> > Book Guys from the woodwork, ain't it?
>
> fact that someone would write such a long tirade without knowing just
> what it was they were railing against. My reply came out a bit harsher
> than I'd intended...chalk it up to me neglecting to use a smiley. So
> sorry about that, and I'll try to be a better proofreader in the future.
>
> Chris
Hey, don't get me wrong. It *is* embarassing that I would launch into such a
tirade when completely unaware that the person who re-wrote history is the
one who created the character in the first place. Hell, I can't help but
smile thinking about it right now. But your response combined with Seitz'
(with more to come, I'm sure) just put me on the defensive.
Let's not fret it. However, if you DO have any answers to the questions I
asked elsewhere in this thread (such as when Stern was removed from the
book, where exactly he left off, and why) I'd love to get educated on the
topic.
And hopefully look less stupid next time. ;)
Selaboc
> "Matthew Park Park" <mpp...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote in message
> news:Pine.LNX.4.58-035....@unix44.andrew.cmu.edu...
> >
> > There was a miniseries done a while back (mid 90's?) where it
> > was revealed that Ned Leeds was mind controlled by the "real" Hobgoblin,
> > who came back and killed Macendale, i believe. Personally I didn't think
> > it was that bad a miniseries, but I didn't read the original Hobgoblin
> > stories, so I don't know how bad they mucked things up.
>
> It might not have fucked anything up at all, other than the fact that
> whoever is behind this miniseries just negated what I believe amounted to
> over a couple of years' worth of suspense and drama.
Except that "whoever" was Roger Stern the man who was behind the
begining of those several years of suspense and Drama. The Mini-series
was "Hobgoblin Lives" published in 1997 and the Hobgoblins identity
was revealed to be the person that Stern claims he origionally
intended to be the Hobgoblin. That's not to be taken as an endorsement
of the mini, just stating the facts.
> Then, after what seemed like an eternity, when they
> had milked Hobgoblin for all he was worth, they finally revealed it was Ned
> Leeds, killed the character off, and closed that chapter of Spiderman's
> history.
Actually, IIRC they killed the character off in an unrelated one-shot
and then reveraled it was Ned, which was rather anti-climatic: "atlast
the Hobgoblin's identity revealed, and he's dead!"
> And some guy comes along a couple of years later and decides that Ned Leeds
> WASN'T the Hobgoblin, and he was mind-controlled all along?
That would be because that guy never intended for the Hobgoblin to be
Ned.
> You know, as much as I can recall every detail of what happened, I can't
> remember when exactly the arc concluded in the regular title. I remember the
> same graphic novel you do, and Leeds did indeed die in that graphic novel. I
> believe that the same month the graphic novel came out (or the one following
> it), that issue of ASM started with the Bugle staff grieving Leeds' death at
> the airport, on the way back from Germany.
Yep. Spidey/Wolverine came first.
> You can see how frustrating it is to learn that someone undid all of this,
> and made that whole "payoff" to years of suspense and speculation completely
> worthless.
>
> Whoever that writer who re-wrote Hobgoblin history is, is helping to make a
> strong case for writers to OWN their created characters as long as they are
> alive.
But the writer who did this is one of the ones who created the
Hobgoblin in the first place. If he OWN the character, Ned would never
have been revealed as the true Hobgoblin.
Jon Yeager
news:slrnce3bv0....@fox.mps.ohio-state.edu...
> On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 12:34:09 -0400, Jon Yeager wrote:
> > Do you always take things so personally? Normally, I would just say
"oops",
> > but your attitude would rather have me respond "relax". So I didn't know
it
> > was the same guy... should I hang my head in shame? Perform somekind of
> > penance? Are you the Simpson's Comic Book Guy in disguise?
>
> Based on your own excitability as demonstrated here and in the post in
> which you made an error, I think you might need to "relax" as well. You
> just finished an angry rant about the integrity of the Hobgoblin mystery
> being destroyed by a retcon, and now you accuse somebody *else* of being
> CBG-esque? I agree that his response was a little harsh, but, you've been
> making a lot of unnecessarily harsh posts yourself from what I've seen.
> Follow your own advice, and don't things (comic stories and people
> pointing out errors, for example) so personally.
The tone of my posts, you'll notice, has always been - and will always be -
a direct reflection of how one chooses to address me. You'll see that the
rare few of you who've elected NOT to be arrogant or condescending get the
same respect in return.
I used to be quite poised, believe it or not - until that Stark Mustache
ridiculousness. Now, if you'll forgive my french, having witnessed what I'm
dealing with, forgive me for no longer giving a flying fuck.
(Not meant as anything personal against you.)
Jon Yeager
news:10e3bge...@corp.supernews.com...
> In article <HQgEc.121464$rt5.1...@wagner.videotron.net>,
> Jon Yeager <nos...@please.com> wrote:
> >
> >Do you always take things so personally? Normally, I would just say
"oops",
> >but your attitude would rather have me respond "relax".
>
> I'm sorry, but your long tirade came across as very clueless and the
> power of the anonmity of the 'net gets to me like that sometimes. If
> you'd said that to me in the real world, I'd have probably just said,
> "you do realize Roger Stern, the creator of the Hobgoblin, wrote that
> limited series, right?" Sorry I got carried away.
No problem. I probably would have been less defensive in return were it not
for two of you talking down to me at the same time (I just walked out of
that Tony Stark Mustache thread and I'm still a bit jumpy). Let's call it an
unfortunate coincidence, and that net anonymity thing. ;)
> >So I didn't know it was the same guy... should I hang my head in shame?
>
> Yes. 8)
Done!
> >Are you the Simpson's Comic Book Guy in disguise?
>
> Sometimes. 8)
D'oh!
> >Your unnecessary arrogance notwithstanding, I find all of this quite
> >fascinating. So you're saying Stern - who created the Hobgoblin - was
> >building towards something and got pulled from the book before he could
> >finish it? And in his absence, Marvel concluded his arc for him?
>
> Something like that. Stern kept the secret to himself. I'm uncertain
> of the hows and whys of him leaving the Spider-Man titles at the time,
> but he'd handled the Hobgoblin for two years when he left. I just
> found (but haven't read in full) a good series of articles about the
> whole Hobgoblin mystery:
> http://www.spideykicksbutt.com/SquanderedLegacy/SquanderedLegacyTitle.html
> I think it'll answer most of your questions.
Whoa! Great, I'll get to reading that shortly. Many thanks.
> >Actually, if someone less condescending could clue me in, I'd much
> >appreciate it. I didn't know Stern created Hobgoblin, much less undid the
> >work of his replacement the first chance he got.
>
> Sad that the first chance he got was ten years later, eh?
Now I *really* want to know what the hell happened.
Thanks for the link, off I go to read up.
NedLeedsjr
Jon Yeager
news:3c20e9e9.04062...@posting.google.com...
>
> Except that "whoever" was Roger Stern the man who was behind the
> begining of those several years of suspense and Drama. The Mini-series
> was "Hobgoblin Lives" published in 1997 and the Hobgoblins identity
> was revealed to be the person that Stern claims he origionally
> intended to be the Hobgoblin. That's not to be taken as an endorsement
> of the mini, just stating the facts.
See, now THIS is how you politely point out to someone that he is clueless.
:) Thanks for being gentle with me.
> > Then, after what seemed like an eternity, when they
> > had milked Hobgoblin for all he was worth, they finally revealed it was
Ned
> > Leeds, killed the character off, and closed that chapter of Spiderman's
> > history.
>
> Actually, IIRC they killed the character off in an unrelated one-shot
> and then reveraled it was Ned, which was rather anti-climatic: "atlast
> the Hobgoblin's identity revealed, and he's dead!"
I admit, I was always curious about why they'd kill him off in a graphic
novel... but since I owned the graphic novel, it didn't bother me as much as
it probably did others.
> > And some guy comes along a couple of years later and decides that Ned
Leeds
> > WASN'T the Hobgoblin, and he was mind-controlled all along?
>
> That would be because that guy never intended for the Hobgoblin to be
> Ned.
But I liked the way it played out. Who wrote the ending to this arc, and
when exactly did he come on board?
> But the writer who did this is one of the ones who created the
> Hobgoblin in the first place. If he OWN the character, Ned
> would never have been revealed as the true Hobgoblin.
And now you know why everyone's laughing at me right now. :(
Chris McFeely
> strong case for writers to OWN their created characters as long as they are
> alive.
It was re-written by Roger Stern, the man who *created* the Hobgoblin.
He left the title in the 80's before Hobby was unmasked, and the
writer who came on after created the Ned Leeds story. In the 90's,
Stern wrote a three-issue miniseries, "Hobgoblin Lives," which
revealed that Roderick Kingsley was the real Hobgoblin - as Stern had
always *intended* him to be when he originally wrote the series.
Chris
NedLeedsjr
>But I liked the way it played out. Who wrote the ending to this arc, and
>when exactly did he come on board?
As I said somewhere else in this mess of a thread, Peter David finished up the
rationale and explanation of the Hobgoblin story.
Skylark
Jon Yeager
> <lkseitz (Lee K. Seitz) .at. hiwaay @dot@ net> wrote in message
> news:10e3bge...@corp.supernews.com...
>
> > of the hows and whys of him leaving the Spider-Man titles at the time,
> > but he'd handled the Hobgoblin for two years when he left. I just
> > found (but haven't read in full) a good series of articles about the
> > whole Hobgoblin mystery:
> >
http://www.spideykicksbutt.com/SquanderedLegacy/SquanderedLegacyTitle.html
> > I think it'll answer most of your questions.
>
> Whoa! Great, I'll get to reading that shortly. Many thanks.
Having just read all 4 parts, my comment is... whoa. What a mess.
That being said, the author behind those articles seems to not be a big fan
of the Gang Wars / Ned Leeds version of the Hobgoblin... whereas I am. This
puts me in an awkward position, as I also enjoyed the pre-Gang Wars solo
Hobgoblin.
One thing I will say, though... and correct me if I misread... but if Stern
had intended all along for Ned Leeds to be a red herring after two years of
suspense and 3 prior identity revelations that turned out to be bogus...
then I can't blame Owsley for wrapping things up the way they did, making
the red herring into the genuine article. The fans had simply been jerked
around enough with misleading covers and endless teases. It had to end, and
if Stern wasn't around to do it, then so be it.
I also disagree with the author's assertion that Hobgoblin deserved to die
in a climactic battle with Spiderman, rather than "like a wimp", as he puts
it. Nothing about the Hobgoblin has been predictable, so why should his
death be? I like that he died at the hands of no-name thugs. I like that he
cried out Spiderman's name in the end, expecting his help, hinting that
Leeds knew of Spidey's secret identity (since Parker was there in Germany
with him, while Spiderman technically wasn't).
It's hard for me to champion DeFalco, the writer behind the excellent Gang
Wars arc -- because according to this, he, too, wanted Leeds to be a red
herring, and actually wanted Richard Fisk to be Hobgoblin. So what ended up
happening is that DeFalco got fired before he could finish HIS version of
what Stern couldn't conclude before him, and Owsley came in and said "Enough
of this, Leeds is the Hobgoblin, time for Spiderman to get married and move
on."
So if I understand correctly, my favorite comics storyline of all time is
the result of two writers being fired successively, and a 3rd coming in to
wrap things up before the big marriage. Neither one of the 3 writers
intended for the story to develop as it did. Stern wanted Kingley as the
Goblin (a twin brother to explain scenes where they appeared simultaneously?
Very weak!); DeFalco wanted Richard Fisk as Hobgoblin, and Kingsley as the
Rose (I can't even begin to fathom how that works); and Owsley just wanted
to put the whole thing to rest, and went with legitimizing the red herring
as the genuine article.
The result, by somekind of bizarre miracle, is one of the greatest arcs ever
written in comics, IMHO. And none of the writers can be credited for it,
because they all had plans to screw it up before being fired.
I *like* Ned Leeds as the Goblin. I *like* that he hooked up with the Rose
with heroic motives and later got corrupt with power. I *like* that he died
the way he did. I *liked* that his death meant no one could come in and undo
this fine piece of work.
Sure, Macendale came in, and the Demogoblin... but they never posed as the
original.
I am grateful to Roger Stern for creating the Hobgoblin... but there were
too many teases. It was time for it to end, and he had no plans on ending
it. He was going to ride that pony indefinitely. Had Stern remained on the
book, we would be up to our 16th false reveal of the HB identity, and still
not know that he's really Kingsley. Some writers need to be stopped.
I haven't read Hobgoblin Lives, so I'm in a weak position to comment on
it... but I *can* comment on the fact that it exists at all. I totally
disagree with it. I take back what I said about writers and ownership of
their creations. Maybe this is why musicians have producers. And why writers
have editors. Left to their own devices, a musician - or a writer - can be
his or her own worst enemy.
For whatever reason, Stern was not allowed to finish his original thought...
but resurrecting the character after the great work DeFalco and Owsley did
on him (IMHO) was a horrible, horrible idea. It reeks of "This was MY
character, dammit, and I don't want him dead". A seemingly selfish move,
rather than what's best for Spiderman and the series overall.
Just my $0.02. They should have left well enough alone.
Mathew Krull
I think this may be the case. Stern left ASM with issue 252, 3 years
before the Ned Leeds reveal in 289. Gang War was written by Priest
(then, Jim Owsley) and Tom Defalco. And it was Peter David who wrote
the issue where Ned dies. There is an interesting interview with Roger
Stern from just before the release of Hobgoblin Lives here:
http://www.spiderfan.org/comics/credits/roger_stern.html
Michael Alan Chary
Jon Yeager <nos...@please.com> wrote:
>Wow, that admitted mistake of mine sure is pulling out all the Comic Book
>Guys from the woodwork, ain't it?
>
>And then you guys wonder why no one in this group will concede anything to
>anyone else. Look at how quickly you pounce when someone slips up and you
>get the slightest wiff of fresh blood.
>
>Does someone else want to insert their own sarcastic / condescending remark?
>For those of you just tuning in, I didn't know Roger Stern created the
>Hobgoblin.
>
>Surely someone else wants to take a stab at the body?
You actually had a reasonable point. The killing of Ned Leeds was spite.
Or so I have been told by creators on the scene. Stern didn't have a
chance to implement his original plan for a while.
--
In memoriam Ray Charles, 1918-2004. Hear Brother Ray sing "America:"
http://www.symbolicproductions.com/America/flash/flash.html
The All-New, All-Different Howling Curmudgeons!
http://www.whiterose.org/howlingcurmudgeons
lkseitz .at. hiwaay
Jon Yeager <nos...@please.com> wrote:
>I am grateful to Roger Stern for creating the Hobgoblin... but there were
>too many teases. It was time for it to end, and he had no plans on ending
>it. He was going to ride that pony indefinitely. Had Stern remained on the
>book, we would be up to our 16th false reveal of the HB identity, and still
>not know that he's really Kingsley. Some writers need to be stopped.
I disagree. I have great respect for Stern's work and think he
probably would have finally revealed Hobgoblin's identity sooner than
we actually got it. But that's just my opinion.
>I haven't read Hobgoblin Lives, so I'm in a weak position to comment on
>it... but I *can* comment on the fact that it exists at all. I totally
>disagree with it.
To tell the truth, I only followed the Hobgoblin story from a
distance. (I wasn't a regular Spider-Man reader.) But I, and I'm
sure many other fans, were greatful that Stern got a chance to finally
reveal his original plan, even if it was a bit late.
>For whatever reason, Stern was not allowed to finish his original thought...
>but resurrecting the character after the great work DeFalco and Owsley did
>on him (IMHO) was a horrible, horrible idea. It reeks of "This was MY
>character, dammit, and I don't want him dead". A seemingly selfish move,
>rather than what's best for Spiderman and the series overall.
It was presented in a separate limited series and seems to have hardly
been mentioned since in the regular series. Like many things, I'd say
you're free to disregard it as best you can, if you wish.
--
lkseitz (Lee K. Seitz) .at. hiwaay @dot@ net
THING: It's clobberin' time!
-- Stan Lee
R. Tang
Jon Yeager <nos...@please.com> wrote:
>Do you always take things so personally? Normally, I would just say "oops",
Somehow, I don't think so.
--
-
-Roger Tang, gwan...@u.washington.edu, Artistic Director PC Theatre
- Editor, Asian American Theatre Revue [NEW URL][Yes, it IS new]
- http://www.aatrevue.com
Adam Cadre
> Owsley came in and said "Enough of this, Leeds is the Hobgoblin,
> time for Spiderman to get married and move on."
No, he didn't.
From Christopher Priest (formerly James C. Owsley):
"Stan decided that Peter and Mary Jane would get married in the
Spider-Man syndicated newspaper strip. I thought, and still think, it
was the worst creative move the company could have made. Spider-Man, by
definition, is 'The Hero Who Could Be You.' Once he marries a supermodel
and becomes domesticated, he moves beyond the realm of wish fulfillment
of most adolescents. I mean, sure they'd like to give Mary Jane a toss,
but marriage? What teenage boy dreams of marriage?
"It was creative suicide, it could not be tolerated. I told Jim and Tom
that Spider-Man would get married in the comics series, and this is a
quote, 'Over my dead body.'
"Less than six months later, Spider-Man was married and I was gone."
-----
Adam Cadre, Holyoke, MA
http://adamcadre.ac
Jack Bohn
>"Jon Yeager" <nos...@please.com> wrote in message
>news:qijEc.127200$rt5.1...@wagner.videotron.net...
>> <lkseitz (Lee K. Seitz) .at. hiwaay @dot@ net> wrote in message
>> news:10e3bge...@corp.supernews.com...
>>
>> > Something like that. Stern kept the secret to himself. I'm uncertain
>> > of the hows and whys of him leaving the Spider-Man titles at the time,
>> > but he'd handled the Hobgoblin for two years when he left. I just
>> > found (but haven't read in full) a good series of articles about the
>> > whole Hobgoblin mystery:
>> >
>http://www.spideykicksbutt.com/SquanderedLegacy/SquanderedLegacyTitle.html
>> > I think it'll answer most of your questions.
>>
>> Whoa! Great, I'll get to reading that shortly. Many thanks.
>
>Having just read all 4 parts, my comment is... whoa. What a mess.
Sounds like you now need to read the 35-part story behind the
Clone Saga, "The Life of Reilly"
http://www.newcomicreviews.com/GHM/specials/LifeOfReilly/1.html
--
-Jack
M-Wolverine
> Jon Yeager wrote:
> > Owsley came in and said "Enough of this, Leeds is the Hobgoblin,
> > time for Spiderman to get married and move on."
>
> No, he didn't.
>
> From Christopher Priest (formerly James C. Owsley):
>
> "Stan decided that Peter and Mary Jane would get married in the
> Spider-Man syndicated newspaper strip. I thought, and still think, it
> was the worst creative move the company could have made. Spider-Man, by
> definition, is 'The Hero Who Could Be You.' Once he marries a supermodel
> and becomes domesticated, he moves beyond the realm of wish fulfillment
> of most adolescents. I mean, sure they'd like to give Mary Jane a toss,
> but marriage? What teenage boy dreams of marriage?
To a Supermodel? Probably a few who could live with that...
>
> "It was creative suicide, it could not be tolerated. I told Jim and Tom
> that Spider-Man would get married in the comics series, and this is a
> quote, 'Over my dead body.'
>
> "Less than six months later, Spider-Man was married and I was gone."
>
More seriously, it's an interesting dicotomy with the character,
because the other objection to it is "how can he be down on his luck
Peter and still be married to a supermodel?". It's a hard balance for
the creators to keep the wish fufillment alive (how cool would it be
to be him?), and yet, make him a relatable sclub with problems (girl
problems, no money....even with Spiderpowers, he has the same
problems). It's hard...but when it works, it's gold.
Chris C.
M-Wolverine
> In article <rkhEc.123365$rt5.1...@wagner.videotron.net>,
> Jon Yeager <nos...@please.com> wrote:
> >Wow, that admitted mistake of mine sure is pulling out all the Comic Book
> >Guys from the woodwork, ain't it?
> >
> >And then you guys wonder why no one in this group will concede anything to
> >anyone else. Look at how quickly you pounce when someone slips up and you
> >get the slightest wiff of fresh blood.
> >
> >Does someone else want to insert their own sarcastic / condescending remark?
> >For those of you just tuning in, I didn't know Roger Stern created the
> >Hobgoblin.
> >
> >Surely someone else wants to take a stab at the body?
>
> You actually had a reasonable point. The killing of Ned Leeds was spite.
> Or so I have been told by creators on the scene. Stern didn't have a
> chance to implement his original plan for a while.
I'm not going to get into the piling on....
But on this point, spite isn't really a good reason for storytelling.
Because that revelation screwed up TWO good stories. The Stern
ongoing Hobgoblin mystery (something else that could have saved us
from Norman's ressurrection), and the Spidey/Wolverine one-shot, which
was a great tale on it's own, without all the fake intrigue. It was
sad that Ned Leeds died....and a great "DAMNNNN, guess he's NOT the
Hobgoblin"....which anyone following knew he couldn't be, no matter
how much they red herring'ed him up..because there were too many
points where he couldn't be. Instead we get saddled with weird "took
over the identity" add on's that make little sense, a HUGELY
anticlimatic ending, an unrealistic concept that some of Foreigner's
thugs (not even the man himself), could take out the most menancing
new villian Spidey had in ages, with a whimper, and killing the chance
of the more properly constructed suspects being the Goblin, including
the man who it ended up being, which made the most sense at the time.
Hobgoblin Lives had it's issues, because it was fixing so much crap
that was attached to it, rather than continuing/ending the story as it
should have been. Not to mention having to deal with what this all
begot..the return of the original Green Goblin (hell, if that was what
was going to happen, they should have NEVER told us who HG was).
Apparently there were a lot of politics going on there at the time
(the mention of the upcoming wedding hassle in a sister thread comes
to mind), but rather than objecting to the marriage, maybe editors
should have nixed a story that is seemingly more out of spite than
doing anything good for the characters.
The irony being that Stern's run may be the last really successful
long term run they've had on a Spiderman title.
Chris C.
Jon Yeager
news:<cdrEc.1961$IQ4.953@attbi_s02>...
> >
Umm.. why did this guy change names?
lkseitz .at. hiwaay
From http://www.vorpalbunny.com/cjpriest/meet.html:
It was about this time Jim Owsley became Christopher Priest.
He never discusses the true reasons behind his name change,
but insists every story you may have heard about it is
absolutely true.
--
lkseitz (Lee K. Seitz) .at. hiwaay @dot@ net
".zihW zeehC stae nataS"
-- "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Nature Trail to Hell"
Selaboc
> I also disagree with the author's assertion that Hobgoblin deserved to die
> in a climactic battle with Spiderman, rather than "like a wimp", as he puts
> it. Nothing about the Hobgoblin has been predictable, so why should his
> death be? I like that he died at the hands of no-name thugs. I like that he
> cried out Spiderman's name in the end, expecting his help, hinting that
> Leeds knew of Spidey's secret identity (since Parker was there in Germany
> with him, while Spiderman technically wasn't).
It's been many years since I've read the issues in question, however
the Ned Leeds Hobgoblin death has always struck me as anti-climatic.
After all the build-up of the mystery only to find out after the death
that Ned was the Hobgoblin was just a big let-down, IMO. Other than
that, I had no problems with the Hobgoblin storyline back then.
Jon Yeager
news:10e62ta...@corp.supernews.com...
> In article <gGDEc.156087$rt5.1...@wagner.videotron.net>,
> Jon Yeager <nos...@please.com> wrote:
> >> Adam Cadre <see-website...@adamcadre.ac> wrote in message
> >news:<cdrEc.1961$IQ4.953@attbi_s02>...
> >> >
> >> > From Christopher Priest (formerly James C. Owsley):
> >
> >Umm.. why did this guy change names?
>
> From http://www.vorpalbunny.com/cjpriest/meet.html:
>
> It was about this time Jim Owsley became Christopher Priest.
> He never discusses the true reasons behind his name change,
> but insists every story you may have heard about it is
> absolutely true.
Oh, okay. Cuz with some people calling him Priest and others Owsley, I
thought I had completely misunderstood who was writing what, even after
reading the whole 4-part recap on that other website.
So I'm NOT crazy after all!
Jon Yeager
The reason I don't have a problem with the Leeds death is that this version
of the Hobgoblin was more down to earth than Stern's. The origin of the Rose
(in an issue of WSM) told us that Ned Leeds was just a reporter with good
intentions who stumbled across the Green Goblin's stuff. Both Rose and Leeds
wanted to "pose" as criminals in order to bring down the Kingpin... except
that Leeds went mad with power.
These aren't strictly superhero themes. These are everyday life themes, easy
to apply to our own lives, and also what made Spiderman such a unique title.
Spiderman wasn't flying off into space with the Avengers (ie, circa Byrne),
he -- and everyone around him -- were the most "real" superheroes and
supervilains in existance.
There was nothing magical about Kingpin (whom the Gang Wars were centered
around), Rose, Daredevil, or -- to a certain extent -- Falcon and Hobgoblin.
The whole cast was, well, "real"-ish.
So having Ned Leeds die the way a normal man would seemed appropriate to me.
Because in my mind -- although I didn't realize that it was a contradiction
of earlier versions of him at the time -- Hobgoblin was just Ned Leeds with
lots of great weapons and a mind gone mad. No magic. Nothing supernatural.
It's in that context that I enjoyed that part of Spiderman history.
Having Hobgoblin die at the hands of another superpower (like Doc Ock at the
hands of Kaine) wouldn't have felt right to me. Then again, he didn't have
to die at all, so we can both agree that the whole thing was unnecessary.
But if he had to die, maybe it's not so unusual that he die the way he did,
like any other guy, given the "realism" factor that slowly crept its way
into the book via DeFalco, and culminated during the all too realistic Gang
Wars.
$0.02
John Simons
of the Hobgoblin storyline) gave his version of these events:
"Oh, my head hurts...
Although I was the editor, the Hobgoblin subplot was installed by Editor
Danny Fingeroth and Roger Stern. Tom DeFalco and I inherited this business
from them, and I was content to let Tom and Ron Frenz call the Spider-Shots
as the lead team on AMAZING SPIDER-MAN.
Only Roger Stern knew who the Hobgoblin really was. Neither Tom nor I knew
for sure. Ned was being set up as the latest in a series of red herrings,
but was *not* not not not the Hobgoblin.
SPIDER-MAN vs. WOLVERINE was published around the time of fierce Office Wars
(TM). Shooter, under siege himself, sent Tom off to Europe for awhile,
hoping to diffuse tension between us. I wrote SM v W while Tom was
overseas. Before he left, I floated the idea of Ned Leeds' death in SMvW as
the definitive proof that Ned was NOT the Hobgoblin. We'd play it like
maybe Ned WAS Hobby for a few months, and then the HG would strike again,
thus proving [dead] Ned was, in fact, not him. IIRC, Tom agreed to that
plan.
Then Office Wars(TM), Europe, and, finally, my departure from Marvel,
hastened by my refusal to allow Peter Parker to marry Mary Jane Watson (I
stormed into Shooter's office, with Tom in there, jabbed a finger at Shooter
and told him a married Spider-Man would ruin the franchise. It was the
stupidest idea I'd ever heard, and it would happen, and yes this is a quote,
"Over my dead body").
A week later, I was gone, and Spider-Man got married. They used a bit of
business in SMvW, an awkward kiss between Peter and MJ, to justify the
sudden shift in their relationship. This was a complete misinterpretation
of that subplot; the awkwardness between Peter and MJ was what drove Peter
to accept an out-of-town assignment. And the point of the subplot was to
show *why* these two people were not meant for each other.
After I was replaced by Jim Salicrup, suddenly, Ned Leeds *was* in fact the
Hobgoblin, and the Peter-MJ subplot suddenly became the impetus for their
wedding. It was as though Marvel had deliberately gone out of its way to
discredit the work in SMvW. Like they totally missed the point of that
story. [1]
This caught me by surprise, but those were the instructions Peter David got
when he wrote an annual or special or some such to tie up the Hobgoblin
story. I recall Roger Stern being furious with me, and my frantic call to
him explaining I was as dumbfounded as he was, but this was the decision of
the newly-installed Marvel EIC who, by all appearances, had orchestrated
both my and Shooter's removal with the skill of a Romulan.
The rest is a blur.
cjp
[1] it is worth noting that there never was a SMvW #2. SMvW #1 sold a
gazillion copies at a then-nosebleed high $2.50. I'm not surprised Doc and
I were not invited back, but I am shocked that *nobody* was asked to do #2.
Doc Bright and I pitched a 1998 version (post Spider-Clone, post-Cold War,
non-Adamantium skeleton return to a unified Berlin). Marvel: No Thanks.
*scratches head*"
M-Wolverine
> In Aug 1999 Priest (who, as Jim Owsley, edited ASM during the latter days
> of the Hobgoblin storyline) gave his version of these events:
>
> "Oh, my head hurts...
>
> Although I was the editor, the Hobgoblin subplot was installed by Editor
> Danny Fingeroth and Roger Stern. Tom DeFalco and I inherited this business
> from them, and I was content to let Tom and Ron Frenz call the Spider-Shots
> as the lead team on AMAZING SPIDER-MAN.
I didn't give enough credit to the work DeFalco and Frenz were doing
on the title at the time. Never liked their Thor, but they seem to
"get" Spider-characters.
> Only Roger Stern knew who the Hobgoblin really was. Neither Tom nor I knew
> for sure. Ned was being set up as the latest in a series of red herrings,
> but was *not* not not not the Hobgoblin.
>
> SPIDER-MAN vs. WOLVERINE was published around the time of fierce Office Wars
> (TM). Shooter, under siege himself, sent Tom off to Europe for awhile,
> hoping to diffuse tension between us. I wrote SM v W while Tom was
> overseas. Before he left, I floated the idea of Ned Leeds' death in SMvW as
> the definitive proof that Ned was NOT the Hobgoblin. We'd play it like
> maybe Ned WAS Hobby for a few months, and then the HG would strike again,
> thus proving [dead] Ned was, in fact, not him. IIRC, Tom agreed to that
> plan.
That's how I took it.
> Then Office Wars(TM), Europe, and, finally, my departure from Marvel,
> hastened by my refusal to allow Peter Parker to marry Mary Jane Watson (I
> stormed into Shooter's office, with Tom in there, jabbed a finger at Shooter
> and told him a married Spider-Man would ruin the franchise. It was the
> stupidest idea I'd ever heard, and it would happen, and yes this is a quote,
> "Over my dead body").
>
> A week later, I was gone, and Spider-Man got married. They used a bit of
> business in SMvW, an awkward kiss between Peter and MJ, to justify the
> sudden shift in their relationship. This was a complete misinterpretation
> of that subplot; the awkwardness between Peter and MJ was what drove Peter
> to accept an out-of-town assignment. And the point of the subplot was to
> show *why* these two people were not meant for each other.
OK, I have no doubt that he means what he says, and this is what he
intended...but even before the wedding, I have to say I remember
reading it just the way editorial interpreted it. That it was
reinforcing of their relationship.
I wonder what reasons he had for thinking they were not meant for each
other, beyond the valid reasoning that he shouldn't be with ANYONE.
(Not that I agree with that, either, but the logic behind it stands).
> After I was replaced by Jim Salicrup, suddenly, Ned Leeds *was* in fact the
> Hobgoblin, and the Peter-MJ subplot suddenly became the impetus for their
> wedding. It was as though Marvel had deliberately gone out of its way to
> discredit the work in SMvW. Like they totally missed the point of that
> story. [1]
>
> This caught me by surprise, but those were the instructions Peter David got
> when he wrote an annual or special or some such to tie up the Hobgoblin
> story. I recall Roger Stern being furious with me, and my frantic call to
> him explaining I was as dumbfounded as he was, but this was the decision of
> the newly-installed Marvel EIC who, by all appearances, had orchestrated
> both my and Shooter's removal with the skill of a Romulan.
>
> The rest is a blur.
I can't remember...at that point, who took over the EiC...was it
DeFalco? David wrote some great Spiderman stories...but he really got
dragged into this mess.
> cjp
>
> [1] it is worth noting that there never was a SMvW #2. SMvW #1 sold a
> gazillion copies at a then-nosebleed high $2.50. I'm not surprised Doc and
> I were not invited back, but I am shocked that *nobody* was asked to do #2.
> Doc Bright and I pitched a 1998 version (post Spider-Clone, post-Cold War,
> non-Adamantium skeleton return to a unified Berlin). Marvel: No Thanks.
> *scratches head*"
heh...I think I've wondered that myself. But it's for the best. That
story told all it needed too. It was one of those movies that didn't
really need a sequel.
Chris C.
Todd
>The reason I don't have a problem with the Leeds death is that this version
>of the Hobgoblin was more down to earth than Stern's. The origin of the Rose
>(in an issue of WSM) told us that Ned Leeds was just a reporter with good
>intentions who stumbled across the Green Goblin's stuff. Both Rose and Leeds
>wanted to "pose" as criminals in order to bring down the Kingpin... except
>that Leeds went mad with power.
If I remember correctly, some nameless hood discovered the Green
Goblin cache, showed it to a shadowed individual, and was gunned down
for his trouble. If it was Leeds, would he have killed the man so
easily?
Todd
>From http://www.vorpalbunny.com/cjpriest/meet.html:
>
> It was about this time Jim Owsley became Christopher Priest.
> He never discusses the true reasons behind his name change,
> but insists every story you may have heard about it is
> absolutely true.
I was always convinced that a higher power was trying to send him a
message, but Jim wasn't paying close attention.