Oh, sorry. I must have dozed off. The same way I dozed off reading
it. The same way I dozed off then they originally introduced The
Sentry years ago and only bought two of the issues.
I'm sorry, but Superman in the Marvel U is just boring. He's fine for
the DCU and I love him there, but for some reason amidst superhumans
with godlike powers (as opposed to DC's gods with human frailties) he
sticks out like a sore thumb and all the complaints people level
against the real thing suddenly become apparent to me here. It's
always fun when a Superman doppleganger shows up (Hyperion, Gladiator,
Count Nefaria, Ethan Edwards/Skrull) because it's an obvious "in" joke,
if outright parody, but told straight there's no place for him here
(though I did like the long overdue destruction of Carnage). Stan &
Jack never saw fit to create an MU Superman and you can totally see
their wisdom. I've reached my breaking point with the obvious
indulgence of Bendis with B-list characters he likes. Time to simply
bring back Thor to be the "caped muscle" of the team (if for no other
reason, his speech pattern prevents Bendis from making him sound just
like everyone else).
And page after page after page of talking heads didn't make it go down
easier. Lovely art, though. Too bad it was wasted.
I've stuck with this book long enough. Only the presence of Captain
America has kept me on this long, but now it's time to go.
Dude, that's not how it works. Have you not been reading Shawn and SRS? For
God's sake, SRS has been consulted for HEROES RETURN!
When you find something terrible, in bad taste, or even downright insulting
to every last virtue you hold dear, the proper reaction is to make sure you
are first in line to buy the next issue.
Who do you think you are by breaking this convention, anyway?
Kurt: "There was Bucky Barnes, Fred Davis, Jack
Monroe, Lemar Hoskin and Rikki Barnes, at least,
plus Ultimate Bucky and various What-If Buckies."
rc022586: "Which one was the black Bucky?"
Kurt: "A list of names like that and you can't tell
which one was the black guy?"
You've changed, man. You've CHANGED!
CAGE: Yo, Thor, let me see that hammer.
CAGE: The hammer.
THOR: Sacred Mjolnir?
CAGE: That the name of the hammer?
CAGE: Give it here. I want to borrow it for a sec.
THOR: Thou canst not.
THOR: Thou canst not.
CAGE: Why not?
THOR: 'Tis enchanted.
CAGE: The hammer's enchanted?
THOR: Verily. 'Tis my hammer. 'Tis enchanted. 'Tis my enchanted
THOR: So-- so Odin -- (the ALL-father Odin) -- did place upon yon
hammer an enchantment.
THOR: So thou canst -- I am trying to EXPLAIN unto thee, varlet --
thou canst-- canst-- thou simply canst not wield mine hammer!
CAGE: So I can't even, can't even have a looksee.
THOR: Nay. Nay is what I say unto thee. I say thee nay.
Adam Cadre, Holyoke, MA
I don't buy NEW AVENGERS to be annoyed, or for entertainment; I buy the
series, in part, for its instructional value: How not to write, how not
to plot, and how not to edit. Each issue could be compared to a tissue
sample that I look at to spot diseased cells. In that regard, NA is
worth the money.
Three things that stood out about NA #9: Major elements in the Sentry
storyline were insanity, mind control, and altering reality (creating
the Void). Hm, where have I seen those before. . . Are they in NA #10
too? The suspense is just painful.
It's not surprising that Bendis would be attracted to the Sentry, or,
given his plotting disabilities, that he'd find a Superman (Marvelman)
clone attractive as well.
Do you think Bendis is capable? Or would it be like Leifield-speak on
: And page after page after page of talking heads didn't make it go down
: easier. Lovely art, though. Too bad it was wasted.
Talking Emma Heads. I never knew Emma would even bother to go on like
that, total verbal overkill.
: I've stuck with this book long enough. Only the presence of Captain
: America has kept me on this long, but now it's time to go.
He's having more fun in Ultimates, anyway.
Hey, sounds like a perfectly plausible explanation to me. Like a musician
being first in line at the record store to buy the latest Bon Jovi album,
single, DVD or special edition EP.
He hates them, of course. He's only buying these things to learn what NOT to
do. The fact that this makes him 100% fluent in all things Bon Jovi is a
In fact, if he repeats this to himself often enough, he may become
completely oblivious to the fact that he's become something of a Bon Jovi
Imagine a life dedicated to the study of things you hate. Imagine a life of
becoming an expert at that which repels you.
You don't HAVE to imagine that life, do you Steven?
Uh, it's not so implausible. Anyone connected to the justice system
should be those things in fact.
And judging by the reviews I read in the Washington post so is anyone
who's a critic of any sort.
"Uh", because reading comic books and working for the CIA is the same thing.
My blindness shames me. Thanks for directing me towards the light.
This coming from the guy who whined like a little girl when the Spider-Man
writer decided Wolverine could recover from a 100-story fall, but said
nothing when Wolverine needed a couple of seconds to recover from his throat
being slashed wide open. Because Bendis wrote the latter, not the former.
Bendis has his haters, who flood this group with nothing but hate and
criticism in his direction. He also has his groupies, who can see him doing
no wrong, and don't have the inner fortitude to recognize any of his
failings because it would mean agreeing with someone from the opposite camp.
Can't have that. Y'all have your pride, after all.
And somewhere in the middle -- in the land of reason -- are those of us who
can recognize Bendis' many mistakes, as well as congratulate him for his
many good ideas.
The rest of you are fucking whackjobs. Fanboy whackjobs that are 100%
deserving of every last insult thrown at you by jocks and women behind your
backs your entire lives.
That would require invulnerablity.
> nothing when Wolverine needed a couple of seconds to recover from his throat
> being slashed wide open.
That would require a healing factor.
What about this is so hard to understand?
There's nothing to understand. You love Brian Bendis. We get it.
Now, as far as people looking stupid after someone was proven right... how
stupid do YOU feel after it's been proven that your hero Bendis resurrected
Hawkeye just like I said he did 7 months after killing him, one month off my
original prediction? You argued that one even after the resurrection.
Can't do it, can you? Can't concede that one to me. Too much pride. Too much
Now maybe you understand why all those people will never concede the Stark
money thing to you. Quit whining and move on.
You said Fabian and Busiek would do it in Thunderbolts. Kinda like
being sorta right but not really, isn't it?
I could care less whether anyone concedes the tower thing. Most people
on this board primarily like to bitch and moan (Shawn likes to bitch
and moan and misuse academic theory). Conceding things gets in the way
of the bitching and moaning. I expect very little from anyone here.
You kept trying to to push Busiek and Fabian to say that they were
bitter over Avengers Disassembled (and all the evidence says they
weren't) because you wanted your own bitching and moaning to be
validated. When Busiek failed to do so, you called him a liar.
The tower thing was yesterdays topic, everyone's already forgotten
about it. There's new things to bitch and moan about. Carry on!
Yeah, it's almost like comics come out in seperate issues that should make
sense on their own.
And what explanation? That the Sentry willed it to be? That's called deus
ex machina, and is generally frowned upon. Cute throwaway lines aren't
saving this wreck.
: The rest of you are fucking whackjobs. Fanboy whackjobs that are 100%
: deserving of every last insult thrown at you by jocks and women behind your
: backs your entire lives.
You're so racist. Why leave out the fags and the nerds who insult us, too?
In short, the story can't work as written. All the nice pictures are
actually irrelevant to the actions; Frost could have acted as a
telepathic bridge between Lindy and her husband, but that would result
in all three being in mere trances, and the poor reader couldn't have
THAT! What he gets instead are pictures that make no sense.
Then, as if the parallels to "reality-altering" Wanda weren't
clear enough, Iron Man emphasizes them by saying "And we failed them
because we didn't reach out when we should have."
So, yet another excellent example of how *not* to write a story, plus a
bonus-yet another reference to the Avengers' failure to save poor
Wanda from the insanity bubbling madly in her subconscious, unknown to
anyone, even all the writers between Byrne and Bendis. Since Paul
Jenkins is featured in this particular mess, perhaps he'd be kind
enough to justify Bendis's handling of Wanda with reasoning that
adults can appreciate.
Have you, like, never read a Marvel comic before?
You and Shawn are always like, "Bendis can't write comics that are
consistent with older comics, bad Bendis!"
Everything Bendis does that you complain about in consistent with older
stories. But when your not complaining about this and that your
complaining that he doesn't respect continuity. Idiots.
They always made sense to anyone with the half brain to realise that
Iron-man's motivations were not revealed, but I know you come from the
old school of bad comic writing, so can't understand it unless you have
thought bubbles over Captain America's head saying "I don't understand
Iron-man's motivations!!!!???" Like your hero Claremont does.
> And what explanation? That the Sentry willed it to be? That's called deus
> ex machina,
No it isn't. That's another word you don't understand. Deux Ex
Machina refers to a story being resolved by pulling something out of
nowhere. Sentry tower being there, and invisible, was previous
continuity. It's good writing.
Emma Frost didn't convert Lindy's body into psionic energy, but she can most
certainly yank someone's subconscious/astral form/spirit/whatever out of
someone body. This is a standard telepathic ability in Marvel.
This complaint is more along the lines of Bendis not respecting SRS's
continuity and how powers should work in the Marvel Universe. By far, this
is one of the more sillier complaints that he has made.
But keep on buying those comics; with Bendis selling in the 150K, it will
insure that a) he'll stay on NA for a very long time and b) other writers
will start copying his style.
No, it's not. I was right about the cover of #502. I was right about the
resurrection. And I was right guesstimating how long it would take to do.
I never claimed the resurrection would occur in New Thunderbolts. I said
that's where he's going when he returns. You going to bet against me again?
I think you know better this time.
Then again, that would require the ability to learn from past mistakes -- an
ability you clearly don't possess.
> I could care less whether anyone concedes the tower thing.
Yeah, we could all see that when you posted : "So how many people feel
stupid about complaining about the Avengers money thing... when they just
explained how Tony could afford Stark Tower?"
You weren't seeking for anyone to concede anything AT ALL.
> Most people on this board primarily like to bitch and moan
You mean like the ones who write hundreds of posts arguing that Wolverine
cannot fall from 100 stories and survive?
> Conceding things gets in the way of the bitching and moaning.
> I expect very little from anyone here.
The feeling is mutual. But expecting little from anyone here won't stop you
from spending hours a day writing 10-page essays for me to skip over, is it?
> The tower thing was yesterdays topic, everyone's already forgotten
> about it.
They've forgotten about it because you were the author. Or don't you think
we've noticed that every single time you address your imaginary audience, no
one ever replies?
The only way you've managed to generate replies by anyone is by biting the
ankles of the same 2-3 guys who've shown you anykind of attention in the
> There's new things to bitch and moan about. Carry on!
And yet you're still pulling an SRS and quoting real-world facts to Robert
explaining why Wolverine shouldn't survive 100-story falls.
Every once in a while, you'll have a brief moment of clarity. You'll realize
how futile all of your whining and flaming is... and you'll either post
another "You win, I quit, I'm done with you" retirement post (which will
last 10 minutes, tops) or another sensible "I am above this crap" post like
But never once will you acknowledge your own failings. Even during these
contrived "moment of clarity" that hit you every now and then.
And before you know it, you're typing out another 10-page essay on why it's
technically impossible for Superman to fly without wings or somekind of
propulsion device, which inevitably will turn into another patented Scott
Who're you kidding, Scott? You wanna show us you're really above this crap?
Don't tell us. Show us.
Yes, Shawn. Fanboys are a race.
Never change, "Professor".
Thanks for this post! I was *wondering* whether SRS would give this arc
thumbs up or down! In fact, the anticipation of finding out was almost
: Yes, Shawn. Fanboys are a race.
Dishes it out, can't take it. Doesn't even recognize it.
Lindy collapsed. I saw nothing that ever suggested her body was
converted to psionic energy. Have you ever read old X-men stories
where Charles Xavier goes onto the astral plane? He's got this blue
genderless body that can fly around anywhere?
You know, Bendis had Wolverine surviving a fall from the helicarrier in
House of M. Healing factor, invulnerability, or sycophancy?
- Nathan P. Mahney -
As I'm well aware. Wasn't any more realistic there.
What people really can't seem to grasp is I never said it was bad
writing to begin with. (Go ahead, check my posts. Never said it.)
What I said was it wasn't realistic.
But do continue with the straw men.
There are ways to do these kinds of subplots and make them seem like actual
subplots. Bendis has a style that, for me, isn't really conducive to serial
fiction. His subplots especially rarely feel like subplots - they feel like
he's forgetting his own stuff, or changing his mind, or ignoring it.
Usually they make sense in the end, but they frustrate me until they're
resolved, and judging by comments on line they have the same effect on a lot
of people. All we needed was Cap to voice his concerns or doubts to someone
and the subplot is ticking.
> > And what explanation? That the Sentry willed it to be? That's called
> > ex machina,
> No it isn't. That's another word you don't understand. > Deux Ex
> Machina refers to a story being resolved by pulling
> something out of
> nowhere. Sentry tower being there, and invisible, was > previous
> continuity. It's good writing.
Debatable. The Sentry's tower DID come out of nowhere for a goodly number
It came out of nowhere for me. What was the previous continuity that
showed/foreshadowed it. Have I forgotten something from an earlier issue or
was it from a different title?
"Dear Grandfather, I know I haven't written for a while but
it's difficult when we are being chased by alien werewolf
soldiers." -- Chi-Yun, Heroes #27
Fine - but your arguments against Wolverine surviving did come across as
criticism. I wanted to see if you'd apply the same criticism to Bendis,
because you do have a tendency to place him above such things. A tendency
you've upheld, I see.
It was from the Sentry miniseries, which was a good five years ago. The
character had been reestablished in earlier issues of New Avengers, but the
tower, and the rest of his backstory, had not. I would say that most people
reading New Avengers didn't read The Sentry.
> Debatable. The Sentry's tower DID come out of nowhere for a goodly number
> of people.
It's not deux ex machina under any definition. In Deux Ex Machina, the
climax of the story is resolved by the sudden appearence of a unknown
variable. The Sentry story was not solved by the appearence of the
Nobodies mentioned the end of the issue where Iron-man holds back facts
from non Avengers heroes. I wonder what his motivation is. It was the
most interesting part of issue 10.
Fair enough then (I'm still waiting upon my flatmate to buy New Avengers
#10, a pox on him). If the tower were coming out of nowhere (bar the Sentry
mini) to solve a major plot point,that would be bad writing. If it's just a
minor point, it can probably slide.
If he thought he was holding anything back, he's dumber than he looks.
Charles Xavier was in the room.
I think Wolverine's adamantium bones pretty much guarentee his healing
factor can deal with anything. Because then all he has to deal with is
soft tissue injury.
I don't really object to it on a realism level - if the writers say his
healing factor can handle that level of punishment, then it can. It's just
that Wolverine was far more compelling to read about when his healing factor
was less powerful. In the 80s it feels like a fall from that height would
have killed Wolverine. What can kill him now? A precipitious drop in sales
seems about the only possibility.
- Nathan P. Mahney -
And no Xavier...
And Namor telling someone else not to be arrogant....
> If he thought he was holding anything back, he's dumber than he looks.
> Charles Xavier was in the room.
I know. I'm surprised Iron-man didn't laugh at him. Must be the
business necessary poker face.
Iron-man uses anti-mind control technology, so it might be able to
block Xavier even if he was in the room. It would kind of suck for
Tony if a telepath came by and stole all his technological secrets.
It's pretty much a precaution he'd have to take.
Yes, there's anti-mind control technology, but it has to be in the form of a
helmet. A cliché, but them are the rules.
Plus, Xavier has access to Sh'iar technology. As impressive as Tony's tech
might be, it just doesn't compare ;-)
Nope. Iron-man has anti-mind control technology in the form of his
watch. He always wears it. Busiek added that after the Kang story
where they "revealed" Iron-man was under mind control for something
like his entire career. King of an "oh yeah?" compensation thing.
Damn... I know my memory's bad, but I only read the thing two days ago :-(
"Deep Purple is a higher form of life for us, it is genius,
it is inspiration. This is like having Lenin alive again."
Alexei Kuznetsov, Russia.
>Nope. Iron-man has anti-mind control technology in the form of his
>watch. He always wears it. Busiek added that after the Kang story
>where they "revealed" Iron-man was under mind control for something
>like his entire career. King of an "oh yeah?" compensation thing.
Learn something new everyday.
The astral plane is mystical; Xavier is, presumably, causing people to
think they're seeing him when physically, there's nothing there.
The fundamental problem with the handling of telepathy in NA #10 is
that Bendis and McNiven are trying to visually depict abstractions.
Telepathy is handled easily in prose: The telepathic dialogue is
italicized; if someone is ordered to do something, the action is
described by narration. The rendering of physically normal versions of
Emma Frost and Lindy in the telepathy sequence was about as far removed
from what was appropriate as one can imagine, and resulted in such
absurdities as Frost gripping Lindy and telling her to "concentrate"
when they're obviously not *physically* present in Reynolds's
brain--and Frost's telling some part of Lindy's mind, impossibly
removed from her brain, to concentrate???
The story is a prime example of why writers shouldn't attempt to
visualize abstractions. Even if a reader can ignore the misuse of the
word "subconscious" and decide, well, Bendis was trying to show a
telepath in action and royally fucked up the details, the conceptual
errors still wreck the story.
BTW, since Frost has been depicted as a broadcast telepath in HOUSE OF
M, the question arises as to how strong she is. Can she order people to
die? Can she render people comatose? SF readers might recall that in
Larry Niven's "Known Space" series, he had telepathic aliens known as
"Slavers" kill all the sentient races in the galaxy by broadcasting
commands to die. If Frost's abilities haven't been well defined, it's
an open question as to how many people she can incapacitate at once.
Having a telepath take action unopposed leads to plot holes.
You're objecting to a technique that's been successfully used in visual
media for decades. Just off the top of my head, I can name Willow in Buffy's
comatose mind in Buffy the Vampire Slayer (where Buffy somehow had a real
physical body inside her own mind -- how the heck does that work?), the
entire Matrix movie (where they use real physical people to depict abstract
bytes of computer code -- ask any software engineer if that's what your CPU
looks like), Professor X wearing armour when he's projecting his thoughts
(why not just show Xavier sitting in his chair and *thinking*, "your attack
can't hurt me"?), and let's throw in Psylock's psychic knife (which was
apparently a visible weapon in her hand even though it was actually a mental
force from her mind... yeah, that makes a whole lot of sense).
In a visual medium, you HAVE to use abstractions for things you can't see,
because... you know... if the reader can't see them then it makes the
"visual medium" part of it kind of nonsensical.
New Avengers #10 was indeed a tedious and annoying story, but there's plenty
of real faults to attack Bendis on instead of picking him up on using a
valid and established visual storytelling technique also used by dozens of
other [better] writers.
> The astral plane is mystical; Xavier is, presumably, causing people to
> think they're seeing him when physically, there's nothing there.
> The fundamental problem with the handling of telepathy in NA #10 is
> that Bendis and McNiven are trying to visually depict abstractions.
The sad thing is, Bendis's telepathy scene wasn't even vaguely
abstract, but was still too abstract for your mind to handle!
> The story is a prime example of why writers shouldn't attempt to
> visualize abstractions.
>From a Grant Morrison interview. He might as well have been talking
about SRS and Shawn H.:
AN: Your use of Metaphor has confounded numerous "Joe Six-pack" readers
and thrilled many critics. Is metaphor the domain of higher levels of
thought? If so, does that thereby threaten to alienate those readers
who are unable to think upon those planes?
GM: I hope so! God help me, I don't want to be responsible for a small
but noisy group of morons busting neurons they can't afford to lose.
I'd much rather alienate them than waste time and energy trying to
entertain the poor bastards. There are plenty of other people available
to do that kind of work. If someone doesn't like or understand what I'm
up to, they should just buy someone else's comics. There are loads of
great books out there to appeal to every IQ level.
Mike Cotton from Wizard and I were talking at the start of the year and
Mike fronted the question, 'Is Grant Morrison too smart for comics?' I
was quite surprised. I've been employed as a comic writer for nigh on a
hundred years now and my bibliography of successful titles shows no
sign of coming to an end, but people always seem to be very concerned
that I don't have an audience or that it's dwindling. All I can say is,
there may just be some readers who are TOO DUMB for comics but they're
not a part of my audience.
So Joe Six-Pack? He can f*** off for a start. I don't know anyone who
fits that description. I like to write comics for the sort of people I
wouldn't mind having a conversation with. Simple as that.
All stories are filled with metaphor, like all of human life. Perhaps
I've been over-enthusiastic, but I've always enjoyed talking about
theory and allegory because I figure some readers, like me, might be
interested in the elaborate behind-the-scenes thought processes which
create the stories they read.
What can I say? I'm not some big intellectual: I grew up as a working
class kid in a violent town. My dad was an ex-soldier turned peacenik
activist, my mum worked part time in offices, doing shorthand and
typing. I left school at 18 never to return but I was lumbered with the
precious gift of interpretation by Mr. Thompson, my English teacher, so
I like things to have double, triple or quadruple meanings, if
possible, with multiple POVs and big spaces for the reader to vanish
into and fill up with ideas of his or her own, sort of like 'Lost' on
the telly, or like 'The Prisoner' or the films of David Lynch, for
instance. My own personal taste doesn't run to literal work or stuff
where everything's neatly explained to me and tied in a 'clever' bow.
The world's a big, wild mess and I like to reflect that. As a reader, I
like to join in and not just watch, if you see what I mean, so as a
writer my intention has always been to create experiences which
deliberately raise questions or suggest further, untold stories and
don't necessarily have one easy solution or outcome. I like to leave
people with something to talk about and fire their own imaginations and
I'm trying to capture the real patterns of real life.
To elaborate on that, in real life, people say things they don't
actually mean and they don't have little thought balloons or captions
hovering nearby to explain what they're really thinking: even if they
did, they'd be thinking several contradictory things at once and in
different voices, with pictures and scribbly feelings attached. In real
life, we judge people by how their actions and their words match up. In
real life, we don't get all the facts but have to use our logic and
emotions and sense of smell to draw our own conclusions. In real life,
two people can appear to be having the same conversation while actually
discussing several quite different things.
In real life, conversations are peppered with weird dead ends,
misunderstandings, interruptions, surrealist non sequiturs and
in-jokes. In real life, you don't get neatly-controlled dramatic
set-ups and resolutions. In real life, the writer isn't nearly as
clever as he'd like to appear on the page. And so on. For these
reasons, I like to think of myself as a hard-nosed realist writer and
SEAGUY, for instance, as being much more directly relevant to the world
we actually live in and the way we live our lives than any number of
allegedly 'realistic' comics which only deal in wish fulfillment soap
opera melodrama. I like to think my work is operating at a uniquely
high level of structural and metaphorical sophistication, more in the
manner of music or poetry. That's why it's so easy for different people
to 'read' it differently and to form such often wildly contradictory
Even Stan Lee and Steve Ditko used abstraction from time to time, like
when you see half of Spider-man's mask on his face when he isn't really
wearing it, or when you see the waves over Spider-man's face to
indicate Spider-sense (they aren't really there, folks!)
I bet Stan wrote telepathic projection scenes for Xavier as well
(haven't read Essential X-men)
SRS wants to reduce comics to HIS LEVEL, the level of a Dick and Jane
Uh, I think you need to stop reading comic books. Everything you're
complaining about is accepted in the medium.
> BTW, since Frost has been depicted as a broadcast telepath in HOUSE OF
> M, the question arises as to how strong she is. Can she order people to
> die? Can she render people comatose? SF readers might recall that in
> Larry Niven's "Known Space" series, he had telepathic aliens known as
> "Slavers" kill all the sentient races in the galaxy by broadcasting
> commands to die. If Frost's abilities haven't been well defined, it's
> an open question as to how many people she can incapacitate at once.
> Having a telepath take action unopposed leads to plot holes.
I don't think she can just say die and a person will die. She can go
into a person's unconscious mind and shut down the past that keeps your
heart beating etc. Emma's telepathy's pretty well defined. Currently
I'd call her the second most powerful telepath in the MU, after Xavier.
When Jean's alive she likely slides down to third, and was fourth when
Nate Grey was alive. I'd say he bumped Charles and Jean down a notch.
And I figure her just above Rachel and Psylocke.
> I don't think she can just say die and a person will die. She can go
> into a person's unconscious mind and shut down the past that keeps your
> heart beating etc. Emma's telepathy's pretty well defined. Currently
> I'd call her the second most powerful telepath in the MU, after Xavier.
> When Jean's alive she likely slides down to third, and was fourth when
> Nate Grey was alive. I'd say he bumped Charles and Jean down a notch.
Nobodies more powerful than Jean when she's in Phoenix mode.
: commands to die. If Frost's abilities haven't been well defined, it's
: an open question as to how many people she can incapacitate at once.
: Having a telepath take action unopposed leads to plot holes.
Bendis writes her as amazingly powerful. They only thing she can't do is
be courteous, so far.