Why Isn't Hellblazer one of Vertigo's Best?
Cyberad
Hi all.
It suddenly struck me that I haven't seen anybody rate HellBlazer as one
of Vertigo's Best titles. I was going to nominate it myself, but decided
on an alternate thread instead..
So, why does it seem that JC in HellBlazer has such a small audience?
Especially when compared to the die-hard SandMan fans, (of which I am a
former one), and the current Invisibles article flood in
r.a.c.dc.vertigo? What makes everyone else flock to the other titles?
Did too many people jump ship when Ennis left? Are all of the current
readers either too alienated from the other readers, or simply too damn
wierd?
I'll admit, Invisibles looks appealing to me, but from the few issues I've
flipped through at the local shops, I haven't been too impressed. (Most
recently being part one of some multi-part arc; this month's release). I
have also seen Preacher however, and once I fill up my HellBlazer holes,
plan on pursuing it as the second comic I collect on a regular basis.
Best,
Patrick
--
...welcome to the land of disposable heroes
Patrick M Pritchard, Photographic Assistant
Home: 416/241-8489 Lighting: SpeedOTron, Broncolor, Metz
Page: 416/372-8224 Cameras: 35mm: Pentax, Nikon
Architecural, Product Med.Format: Mamiya, Bronica, Hassleblad
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Please remove the 'NOSPAM' from my address when replying
Scott Hollifield
On Mon, 11 Aug 1997 02:21:26 -0400, c...@NOSPAMinterlog.com (Cyberad)
wrote:
>Did too many people jump ship when Ennis left? Are all of the current
>readers either too alienated from the other readers, or simply too damn
>wierd?
I jumped ship when Ennis left. I read the Eddie Campbell arc and
the first two Jenkins issues, and gave it up after that.
They're going to have to do another writer switch before I'll pick it
up.
---
Scott Hollifield * sco...@cris.com * http://www.cris.com/~scotth/
Arbiter
Cyberad wrote:
>
> Hi all.
>
> It suddenly struck me that I haven't seen anybody rate HellBlazer as one
> of Vertigo's Best titles. I was going to nominate it myself, but decided
> on an alternate thread instead..
>
> So, why does it seem that JC in HellBlazer has such a small audience?
> Especially when compared to the die-hard SandMan fans, (of which I am a
> former one), and the current Invisibles article flood in
> r.a.c.dc.vertigo? What makes everyone else flock to the other titles?
> readers either too alienated from the other readers, or simply too damn
> wierd?
I think it may be that Hellblazer fans are much less vocal about it
than the others. After all, Hellblazer's reached 117, (by my
collection, anyway); if Jenkins and his storylines were really
disliked by the vast majority, we'd long since have seen Hellblazer
fold. No-one's asked us to do the Invisibles masturbation mantra on
behalf of a struggling Constantine, have they?
(thank God).
I think the problem here is not so much that Jenkins is disliked as
that Ennis was so well liked. Every single poster that has come in
against the current writer has always made the same comparison: "He's
just not like Garth." OK, so Garth is flavour of the month at the
moment, (macadamia nut? pistachio?), but that doesn't mean that no-one
else could ever write Hellblazer. Jenkins is doing fine. He has a
radically different style from Garth, and it shows. So what? Variety
is the spice of life, after all.
Cheers!
--
*****
Everybody's playing the game,
But nobody's rules are the same.
Nobody's on nobody's side . . .
*****
Lawrence C. Tomek Jr.
Cyberad wrote:
>
> Hi all.
>
> It suddenly struck me that I haven't seen anybody rate HellBlazer as one
But HellBlazer is one of the best Vertigo titles out there. HellBlazer
and Sandman Mystery Theatre are my two favorites. HellBlazer is the
book I've been reading the longest and is still one of the few that I
read as soon as I get home (I usually save SMT until I have the whole 4
Act story). The only other two that I read regularly are Books of Magic
and The Dreaming, both of which don't excite me nearly as much as
HellBlazer. The main reason I don't read Preacher is because I'm *not*
a big Ennis-Dillon fan. I prefer more subtle horror and I'm tired of
the whole Angel motif that seems to permeate much of his work.
-c
James Dawson
c...@NOSPAMinterlog.com (Cyberad) wrote:
>So, why does it seem that JC in HellBlazer has such a small audience?
Probably because too many people (I include myself) remember the book
being much, much better under Ennis and Delano. The Jenkins version is
a bit like the New Monkees.
------------
>Especially when compared to the die-hard SandMan fans, (of which I am a
>former one), and the current Invisibles article flood in
>r.a.c.dc.vertigo?
Well, neither of those books makes for a good comparison, because they
never changed writers.
--------------
>What makes everyone else flock to the other titles?
I didn't have the impression that any Vertigo titles were setting sales
records (with the possible exception of Preacher), so I'd say the
"flocking" has been minimal...
----------
>Did too many people jump ship when Ennis left? Are all of the current
>readers either too alienated from the other readers, or simply too damn
>wierd?
I don't understand your "too alienated from the other readers" comment
at all. Comics reading is sort of a solitary activity. I don't know
about you, but I don't sit in a room with a bunch of friends while we
all read comics. (The point being that I don't think anyone bases
buying habits on what other readers are doing. If we did, we would all
be reading Spawn.)
-----------
>I
>have also seen Preacher however, and once I fill up my HellBlazer holes,
>plan on pursuing it as the second comic I collect on a regular basis.
I'd advise getting the Preachers first, since they probably are going
from "ridiculously overpriced" to "mind-blowingly overpriced" faster than
Hellblazer back issues are. (On second thought, save big bucks and buy
the Preacher collections instead of the back issues. They are a real
bargain, considering how many back issues each volume contains.)
--James Dawson
av...@lafn.org
GreyWolf
On Mon, 11 Aug 1997 02:21:26 -0400, c...@NOSPAMinterlog.com (Cyberad)
>Hi all.
>
>It suddenly struck me that I haven't seen anybody rate HellBlazer as one
>of Vertigo's Best titles. I was going to nominate it myself, but decided
>on an alternate thread instead..
>
>So, why does it seem that JC in HellBlazer has such a small audience?
>Especially when compared to the die-hard SandMan fans, (of which I am a
>former one), and the current Invisibles article flood in
>r.a.c.dc.vertigo? What makes everyone else flock to the other titles?
>Did too many people jump ship when Ennis left? Are all of the current
>readers either too alienated from the other readers, or simply too damn
>wierd?
>
>I'll admit, Invisibles looks appealing to me, but from the few issues I've
>flipped through at the local shops, I haven't been too impressed. (Most
>recently being part one of some multi-part arc; this month's release). I
>have also seen Preacher however, and once I fill up my HellBlazer holes,
>plan on pursuing it as the second comic I collect on a regular basis.
>
>Best,
>Patrick
>
I don't think Hellblazer is quite to the "best of" status yet. I was
so tired of Ennis' run on the title that I was happy to get a breath
of fresh air. I disliked Campbell's run intensely - it almost made me
drop the book.
Strangely enough, I actually started picking it up during Ennis' first
biggie, Dangerous Habits. I actually didn't start reading the books
until I had collected all of the back issues - and I'm kinda glad I
waited! Delano reeled me in, Garth exposed me to raw nerves, and now
Jenkins is giving me the kind of storytelling that I missed so much
during Garth's run.
But... all that being said, I still like House Of Secrets the best.
David
Sku11fire
Personally, I didn't start reading Hellblazer until AFTER Ennis left it. I
tried it for about six issues, and it just never grabbed me. Part of it
could be the art, but I don't much care for the style of Seekers or House
of Secrets either, but love(d) those books.
If Hellblazer has a flaw in my eyes, it's that the writer hasn't helped me
to give a damn about John, let alone his entourage. John's supposed to be
a bastard, but a likeable bastard that we still want to see come out on
top. The current constantine is just boring to me. Flat, and somewhat two
dimensional. <shrug>
But, that is just my opinion, as a non-Ellis reader who stopped buying
Hellblazer.
Olaughing
>
>Personally, I didn't start reading Hellblazer until AFTER Ennis left it. I
>tried it for about six issues, and it just never grabbed me. Part of it
>could be the art, but I don't much care for the style of Seekers or House
>of Secrets either, but love(d) those books.
>
I've been reading Hellblazer since before it was its own book--ALL the
way back in Swamp Thing #48 (hand my my droolcup, would ya? Thanks). I'll
agree that Ennis's run lacked a lot of storytelling, and I had little
sympathy for the character during his run (actually, it's not nearly as
simple as that, but I don't think y'all want to hear it). Paul Jenkins has
reinjected the humor of the character which Garth Ennis seemed basically
unable to show us.
Did you read Hellblazer 100? Rough Issue. John had to confront the
fact that his father is in Hell--and it wasn't any of John's doing. That
sort of thing is tough on a person. And Constantine reacted like a true
human being. It's the humanity in Constantine that I like. He doesn't
have superpowers, what magic he has is at least halfway BS (see "Days of
Wine and Roses").
Nyar shthan, Nyar gashanna!
The Laughing Priest!
OLau...@aol.com
MacDee
In article <19970828192...@ladder02.news.aol.com>, Olaughing
<olau...@aol.com> writes
I came into Hellblazer halfway through Garth's run. A lot of searching
and money later I had a whole collection, (barring the final part of
Guys and Dolls, anyone want to fill me in.)
Delano was the guy for me, stories like The Family Man and Dead boys
Heart just spun me into a whole new world of comics that I had never
seen before.
Garth was good, I enjoyed his supporting characters a lot, maybe more
than I enjoyed the Constantine stuff.
Then Eddie Campbell, hmmm. Never seen anything else he had done but I
nearly stopped buying Hellblazer at this point.
Then Paul Jenkins. Wow!
What can I say the guy blew me away totally, Constantine back in his
English/British roots, all Green and not so pleasent land, British myth
and underground culture.
He is for me the definitive Hellblazer writer, stories like Riding the
Green Lanes, Sins of the Father, The Wild Hunt and Days of Wine and
Roses are what Constantine is all about. And Sean Philips art is so
good, they are a brilliant pair that I am pleased to see taking my
favourite comic to new heights.
If you want a good introduction to what I consider to be the best of the
Vertigo titles then you could do a lot worse than shelling out a few
quid on buying up Paul Jenkins run so far.
MacDee
James Dawson
Why isn't Hellblazer one of Vertigo's best? Simple:
Because a few years ago Vertigo began deciding that there was no
need to replace good writers who leave a book with other good writers.
There was a time when Vertigo books would go "from strength to
strength." When Moore left "Swamp Thing," he was replaced by Veitch --
who was pretty damned good himself. When Delano left "Hellblazer," he
was replaced by Ennis -- who was BETTER than Delano. When Morrison
left "Animal Man"...well, okay, that book sucked for awhile, but then
Delano was brought in to write it and did a great job.
But lately Vertigo's editors seem to believe that there is no reason to
waste good talent on books that already have a loyal following of readers
who might go on buying a series no matter WHO writes it. The three prime
examples: "Doom Patrol" after Morrison, "Animal Man" after Delano, and
"Hellblazer" after Ennis.
With any luck, Vertigo finally might be realizing the error of its ways.
We should all hope that Ennis' five-issue return to "Hellblazer" marks
a turning point for the line.
--James Dawson
av...@lafn.org
Bard Sinister
James Dawson wrote:
> But lately Vertigo's editors seem to believe that there is no reason to
> waste good talent on books that already have a loyal following of readers
> who might go on buying a series no matter WHO writes it.
I think vertigo also has several counter-examples, where they had the
brains to cancel a title.
> With any luck, Vertigo finally might be realizing the error of its ways.
> We should all hope that Ennis' five-issue return to "Hellblazer" marks
> a turning point for the line.
When is this supposed to happen?
Eric Gimlin
GreyWolf
On 29 Aug 1997 15:46:15 GMT, James Dawson <av...@lafn.org> wrote:
>Why isn't Hellblazer one of Vertigo's best? Simple:
>
>Because a few years ago Vertigo began deciding that there was no
>need to replace good writers who leave a book with other good writers.
>
>There was a time when Vertigo books would go "from strength to
>strength." When Moore left "Swamp Thing," he was replaced by Veitch --
>who was pretty damned good himself. When Delano left "Hellblazer," he
>was replaced by Ennis -- who was BETTER than Delano. When Morrison
>left "Animal Man"...well, okay, that book sucked for awhile, but then
>Delano was brought in to write it and did a great job.
I don't agree with you that Ennis was BETTER than Delano. At the very
most, they have equal talent, just different ways of storytelling.
>But lately Vertigo's editors seem to believe that there is no reason to
>waste good talent on books that already have a loyal following of readers
>who might go on buying a series no matter WHO writes it. The three prime
>examples: "Doom Patrol" after Morrison, "Animal Man" after Delano, and
>"Hellblazer" after Ennis.
I agree with your Doom Patrol and Animal Man references, but I
disagree with your mention of Hellblazer. I think Jenkins has done a
fine job with Hellblazer, and I for one was glad to see Ennis go.
>With any luck, Vertigo finally might be realizing the error of its ways.
>We should all hope that Ennis' five-issue return to "Hellblazer" marks
>a turning point for the line.
Why? We already have Preacher, Bloody Mary, and God-knows-what-else
by Ennis. Personally, I'd rather not have him come back, unless it's
for a single issue (and that's already been done with Kit's one-shot).
>--James Dawson
>av...@lafn.org
>
James Dawson
Bard Sinister <etgi...@swbell.net> wrote:
>I think vertigo also has several counter-examples, where they had the
>brains to cancel a title.
Can you name ANY non-creator-owned titles that had sales figures which
would have justified continuing those series which were cancelled despite
that fact when a popular writer left? I can't think of a single example.
Remember, Gaiman had an ownership stake in Sandman.
---------
>>We should all hope that Ennis' five-issue return to "Hellblazer" marks
>>a turning point for the line.
>
>When is this supposed to happen?
I read about it on one of the Garth Ennis webpages (www.evil.org/ennis/).
Maybe it's wishful thinking on my part, but I desperately hope it is
true.
--James Dawson
av...@lafn.org
Smire
>From: James Dawson <av...@lafn.org>
>Can you name ANY non-creator-owned titles that had sales figures which
>would have justified continuing those series which were cancelled despite
>that fact when a popular writer left? I can't think of a single example.
Well, there's Sandman.
>Remember, Gaiman had an ownership stake in Sandman.
Not according to any interviews he has given. I saw him talk on the
Neverwhere tour, and he said explicitly that he has no ownership of DC, and
his only power over DC was his statement that if they had carried on
Sandman after he left he would never work for them again. If he had an
ownership stake in Sandman, he said, there would never be a Sandman movie.
Sandy.
'What' asked Mr. Croup, 'Do you want?'
'What," asked the marquis de Carabas, a little more rhetorically, does
anyone want?'
'Dead things,' suggested Mr. Vandemar. 'Extra Teeth.'
from NEVERWHERE by Neil Gaiman
James Dawson
sm...@aol.com (Smire) wrote:
>>From: James Dawson <av...@lafn.org>
>>Remember, Gaiman had an ownership stake in Sandman.
>
>Not according to any interviews he has given. I saw him talk on the
>Neverwhere tour, and he said explicitly that he has no ownership of DC, and
>his only power over DC was his statement that if they had carried on
>Sandman after he left he would never work for them again. If he had an
>ownership stake in Sandman, he said, there would never be a Sandman movie.
In that case, he is directly contradicting things he said in the Comics
Journal interview of a few years back, where he mentioned something
about how Karen Berger and the powers-that-be did not have to give him
a creator's stake in "Sandman" but that they did anyway. I'll dig out
the issue and post the direct quote if no one else has it handy and
would like to do so, but it's in a box...under a lot of other boxes...
under a lot of other (you get the idea).
The passage implied that he got more that just a "created by" credit on
the splash pages, in other words. The fact that he did not have COMPLETE
ownership (or perhaps did not have "subsidiary rights" ownership) of the
character may be why he could not stop a "Sandman" movie from happening.
Haven't seen the contracts, though, so this is all speculation...
--James Dawson
av...@lafn.org
Smire
>In that case, he is directly contradicting things he said in the Comics
>Journal interview of a few years back, where he mentioned something
>about how Karen Berger and the powers-that-be did not have to give him
>a creator's stake in "Sandman" but that they did anyway. I'll dig out
>the issue and post the direct quote if no one else has it handy and
>would like to do so, but it's in a box...under a lot of other boxes...
>under a lot of other (you get the idea).
Post it. I think you are misremembering...
Smire
>>In that case, he is directly contradicting things he said in the Comics
>>Journal interview of a few years back, where he mentioned something
>>about how Karen Berger and the powers-that-be did not have to give him
>>a creator's stake in "Sandman" but that they did anyway. I'll dig out
>>the issue and post the direct quote if no one else has it handy and
>>would like to do so, but it's in a box...under a lot of other boxes...
>>under a lot of other (you get the idea).
>
>
Actually, I suspect he is not contradicting himself. I am sure DC did give
him a 'creator's stake' in Sandman ie the creator credit and whatever money
would go with that. What they did not give him was any ownership of the
character. Sandman, according to Gaiman at the Neverwhere talk, is DC's
lock stock and Barrel.
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
James Dawson (av...@lafn.org) wrote:
: Why isn't Hellblazer one of Vertigo's best? Simple:
: Because a few years ago Vertigo began deciding that there was no
: need to replace good writers who leave a book with other good writers.
I think Jenkins is a much better writer than Ennis.
- Elayne
--
"It's rather disconcerting to realize that someone you assumed was a
rational being turns out to be--well--living a portion of his life on
Earth 3." -- Nancy Collins
ADMICAL
Scott Hollifield wrote:
> I don't think it's a trend -- you've pointed out counterexamples
> yourself -- it's just annoying commonality. One more: Mark Millar
> following Nancy Collins on Swamp Thing (good following bad).
I totally agree here. I don't have any of the Nancy Collins issues, but
I have the whole Millar run, with the first four written with Morrisson,
and it's just fabulous. I'm really glad they're back together on Flash,
after their run on Aztek was, well, quite short.
arno, basic Millar/Morrisson fan I guess
Brian McDn
fire...@panix.com (Elayne Wechsler-Chaput) writes:
>James Dawson (av...@lafn.org) wrote:
>: Why isn't Hellblazer one of Vertigo's best? Simple:
>
>: Because a few years ago Vertigo began deciding that there was no
>: need to replace good writers who leave a book with other good writers.
>
>I think Jenkins is a much better writer than Ennis.
Bite your tongue, Elayne. :) Ennis is an amazing writer at times. When
he's on, he's deadly. If you can find them, pick up the Fleetway tpbs of
TROUBLED SOULS and FOR A FEW TROUBLES MORE. The first is a more serious,
character driven piece. The second has more of the irreverent humor that
Ennis is famous for. But both are wonderful reads.
I think that Ennis' work on HELLBLAZER was just perfect. It was, I think,
the shock of his following up the more moody and atmospheric Jamie Delano
that caught everyone by surprise. And it also got away from the "Boogieman
of the Month", and into more character-driven stuff, albeit with some
fairly nasty characters.
Jenkins is a VERY different writer from Garth Ennis, more lyrical, more
steeped in the mythology of England. But he still gives Constantine a
"street" feel that I think is marvelous. He's telling a different story
than Ennis did, and so the style is more noticeably different.
I think they're both equally fine writers, in their respective styles.
It's like trying to compare Joe Landsdale and Clive Barker. Sure, they've
both written horror, but it's wildly varied, so difficult to compare.
Brian.
codyja...@gmail.com
> Hi all.
>
> It suddenly struck me that I haven't seen anybody rate HellBlazer as one
> of Vertigo's Best titles. I was going to nominate it myself, but decided
> on an alternate thread instead..
>
> So, why does it seem that JC in HellBlazer has such a small audience?
> Especially when compared to the die-hard SandMan fans, (of which I am a
> former one), and the current Invisibles article flood in
> r.a.c.dc.vertigo? What makes everyone else flock to the other titles?
> Did too many people jump ship when Ennis left? Are all of the current
> readers either too alienated from the other readers, or simply too damn
> wierd?
>
> I'll admit, Invisibles looks appealing to me, but from the few issues I've
> flipped through at the local shops, I haven't been too impressed. (Most
> recently being part one of some multi-part arc; this month's release). I
> have also seen Preacher however, and once I fill up my HellBlazer holes,
> plan on pursuing it as the second comic I collect on a regular basis.
>
> Best,
> Patrick
>
> ...welcome to the land of disposable heroes
>
> Patrick M Pritchard, Photographic Assistant
> Home: 416/241-8489 Lighting: SpeedOTron, Broncolor, Metz
> Page: 416/372-8224 Cameras: 35mm: Pentax, Nikon
> Architecural, Product Med.Format: Mamiya, Bronica, Hassleblad
> Journalistic, Glamour Lrg.Format: Sinar, Cambo, MPP
>
> Please remove the 'NOSPAM' from my address when replying