The Endless Sigil Thing Resolved
Gabriel Palczewski
Endless's sigil's work in appearance that is. Here's how it goes...
1. Each sigil is made up of a badge of office each member of the Endless
selects to be used. It is used to call the other Endless mostly as a sign
of respect since it is obvious from the story 3 Septembers & A January
that holding the sigil to summon another Endless isn't required.
2. The gallery of the Endless is composed off all the sigils except that
paticular Endless's. When Desire or Dream looks at their Sigil spot it is
a reflection.
2a. When another Endless member is in another's gallery looking at
his/her/it's Sigil spot his/her/its reflection appears not the Sigil
(Check out Delirium in Desire's gallery during BRIEF LIVES)
3. When a member of the Endless closes off his/her/its realm the sigil
spot becomes black. The realm can be accessed but it would probably take
a more magicly sensitive person such as another Endless to enter it.
4. The relams of the Endless can be entered easily with use of a call
using the Sigil but any Endless or strong magical being can enter
unannounced. If the realm and sigil are closed off then only the truely
powerful could enter.
5. Since the Sigil's are the badge of office if an Endless member were
to lose their Sigil or give it up they would lose their status as an
Endless member and/or lose their envoy immunity in other realms (Check
out Dream's various trips to other realms with and w/o his helm + Dream
speaking to Destruction in BRIEF LIVES about his sigil)
6. The other relams of the Endless are their power and where they have
the most ability to use it. The Endless rarely travel in each others
realms without being officialy announced or invited first due to their
uneasyness in another siblings realms. Desire and Despair seem to travel
between each others freely and Death travels through all of them. It is
assumed that Destruction's realm is never visited or possibly cannot be
visited (Again check out BRIEF LIVES and Dream not knowing the status of
Destruction's realm also Dream's uneasyness to enter Despair's realm due
to her possible involvement in his business)
Thats about it. It should answer the whole Sigil and Realm ordeal.
EDGAR1B
Dream made his helm from the bones of a defrocked enemy. Did he have a
sigil BEFORE this? Did he pick THIS as his sigil? will the new dream have
a new sigil? I mean swords weren't around forever, so what was
Destructions sigil early on?
And do the endless pick their sigil's, or are the predetermined by
one-of-those- high-orders-that-make-the-rules kinda people?
danka
-ed
GHOSTDANCE
On Sat, 2 Dec 1995, Gabriel Palczewski wrote:
>
> 4. The relams of the Endless can be entered easily with use of a call
> using the Sigil but any Endless or strong magical being can enter
> unannounced. If the realm and sigil are closed off then only the truely
> powerful could enter.
This raises the question of why Dream and Delirium simply couldn't walk
into Destruction's realm anyway in Brief Lives.
> uneasyness in another siblings realms. Desire and Despair seem to travel
> between each others freely and Death travels through all of them. It is
Please cite where it is shown or stated that Death travels through all of
her sibling's realms at will.
Dex
Andy Perry
GHOSTDANCE <pete...@river.it.gvsu.edu> wrote:
>On Sat, 2 Dec 1995, Gabriel Palczewski wrote:
>
>>
>> 4. The relams of the Endless can be entered easily with use of a call
>> using the Sigil but any Endless or strong magical being can enter
>> unannounced. If the realm and sigil are closed off then only the truely
>> powerful could enter.
>
>This raises the question of why Dream and Delirium simply couldn't walk
>into Destruction's realm anyway in Brief Lives.
It seems to me that the only action more foolhardy than intentionally
seeking Destruction (which is what ended up killing Dream) is to
intentionally seek the realm of Destruction when you know that it is not
under anyone's control.
Besides, what would their motive have been? They're looking for the
prodigal. Why go to the one place in the entire universe where they are
certain he isn't?
--
Andy Perry We search before and after,
Brown University We pine for what is not.
English Department Our sincerest laughter
Andrew...@brown.edu OR With some pain is fraught.
st00...@brownvm.bitnet -- Shelley, d'apres Horace Rumpole
Gabriel Palczewski
> Besides, what would their motive have been? They're looking for the
> prodigal. Why go to the one place in the entire universe where they are
> certain he isn't?
Clues to his whereabouts. I assumed they have at least tried in
the past cuz Dream inquired weather his realm was still there, obviously
the realm had been closed off heavily from even them entering it.
Kidd Miracle
> After looking over my issues its fairly indisputable how the
> Endless's sigil's work in appearance that is. Here's how it goes...
>
>
> 1. Each sigil is made up of a badge of office each member of the Endless
> selects to be used. It is used to call the other Endless mostly as a sign
> of respect since it is obvious from the story 3 Septembers & A January
> that holding the sigil to summon another Endless isn't required.
>
>
> 2. The gallery of the Endless is composed off all the sigils except that
> paticular Endless's. When Desire or Dream looks at their Sigil spot it is
> a reflection.
>
> 2a. When another Endless member is in another's gallery looking at
> his/her/it's Sigil spot his/her/its reflection appears not the Sigil
> (Check out Delirium in Desire's gallery during BRIEF LIVES)
>
> 3. When a member of the Endless closes off his/her/its realm the sigil
> spot becomes black. The realm can be accessed but it would probably take
> a more magicly sensitive person such as another Endless to enter it.
>
> using the Sigil but any Endless or strong magical being can enter
> unannounced. If the realm and sigil are closed off then only the truely
> powerful could enter.
>
> to lose their Sigil or give it up they would lose their status as an
> Endless member and/or lose their envoy immunity in other realms (Check
> out Dream's various trips to other realms with and w/o his helm + Dream
> speaking to Destruction in BRIEF LIVES about his sigil)
>
> 6. The other relams of the Endless are their power and where they have
> the most ability to use it. The Endless rarely travel in each others
> realms without being officialy announced or invited first due to their
> between each others freely and Death travels through all of them. It is
> visited (Again check out BRIEF LIVES and Dream not knowing the status of
> Destruction's realm also Dream's uneasyness to enter Despair's realm due
> to her possible involvement in his business)
>
>
> Thats about it. It should answer the whole Sigil and Realm ordeal.
>
What was Dream's sigil before he carved the helm out of the
bones of the 3 dead gods?
Myself, I think that his sigil is the Helm, only to
distinguish his sigil from Delerium's. That's what I always
imagine his sigil would look like. ust trippy dreamstuff, like
Fel's glitter.
And now we're gonna start talking about Destruction's sword
or Despair's ring.
Let's not.
Those two tools probably alaways existed (or, in Despair's
case, probably came with her when she repalaced Despair #1.)
But Dream's helm definitely was CREATED by Dream, just as the
ruby was.
Love,
Kidd
Gabriel Palczewski
maybe he didn't even need one before. We don't know when he destroyed
those gods. For all we know he killed them off 10 Billion years ago
sortly after the Universe began and made it. As for the heart and sword
thing I think Destruction and Desire have exceptions as do most of the
Endless as to what their sigil appears as to other people. Since we have
seen that Dream's clothes also change with other people looking at him,
his sigil could as well but thats unlikely. Destruction's sigil is
probably the best weapon of Destruction for whatever race is looking at
it. I am sure some aliens may see a laser gun there or something common
in their society for Destruction same with Desire or the rest of the
Endless. You have to think with a more open mind
Gabriel Palczewski
Its obvious they are picked cuz Dream's was obviously choosen.
Destruction's was choosen as probably the most symbolic destructive
weapon (but as I said it would change for another race of beings) same
with Desire or Despair. I think the only 2 Sigil's that could be called
universal are Dream's and Delirium's.
Anthony John Bailey
> After looking over my issues its fairly indisputable how the
> Endless's sigil's work in appearance that is. Here's how it goes...
You *know* we won't let a remark like *that* go unchallenged... (-:
> 5. Since the Sigil's are the badge of office if an Endless member were
> to lose their Sigil or give it up they would lose their status as an
> Endless member and/or lose their envoy immunity in other realms
That the sigils have some power is a reasonable inference to draw. It
appears that they are one way in which an Endless may "pass on" control
of their realm - in "Brief Lives", Destruction implies he could have
"landed someone else in the same old mess" by passing on his own sigil,
and with it the realm of Destruction, to a successor. Taking the sigil
with him seems to have prevented this, but I suspect it is as much that
Destruction kept his sigil to symbolise the fact that he didn't want to
pass his function on, rather than him *having* to take the sigil to
prevent such a succession.
Reasons to think this: Dream passed on the Eagle stone (a conduit for
his power, but not his official sigil) to Daniel. And look at the first
Death mini-series. Death's sigil is stolen by The Eremite, and she
replaces it with one bought from a street market. (It does cost her,
though, and it *is* the only thing she pays for throughout the story!)
> Desire and Despair seem to travel
> between each others freely and Death travels through all of them.
Someone else asked for a reference for Death's ability to visit the
realm of each Endless. I suspect Gabriel is referring to the passage in
"Brief Lives" where Dream is uncomfortable in the Garden of Destiny -
it is mentioned there that Death feels comfortable in each of their
realms, and this distinguishes her from the other Endless.
> Thats about it. It should answer the whole Sigil and Realm ordeal.
Troll, troll troll, troll trollllll...
(-:
@*=-.,_,.--`'^'`--.,_,.--`'^'`--=*@@*=--`'^'`--.,_,.--`'^'`--.,_,.-=*@
| Anthony. |
@*=-.,_,.--`'^'`--.,_,.--`'^'`--=*@@*=--`'^'`--.,_,.--`'^'`--.,_,.-=*@
GHOSTDANCE
On 3 Dec 1995, EDGAR1B wrote:
> Dream made his helm from the bones of a defrocked enemy. Did he have a
> sigil BEFORE this? Did he pick THIS as his sigil? will the new dream have
> a new sigil? I mean swords weren't around forever, so what was
> Destructions sigil early on?
>
> And do the endless pick their sigil's, or are the predetermined by
> one-of-those- high-orders-that-make-the-rules kinda people?
I'd imagine that the sigils, partially at least, obey the same "varied
perception" effect that the Endless themselves have. I would love to see
a story set in ancient times where Destiny is hefting around a huge, fat
scroll!
Dex
Brendan
OK, got that out.
First, the sigils thing. Someone somewhere makes reference to the
making of rules when Time itself was new because they were needed. The
Endless and the various other major entities of the Sandman mythos
definitely have elaborate rules, formalities, etc. The examples of them
are too many to list; they are completely interwoven into the story and
much of the story is about these rules. Everyone deeply involved in
these circles seems to know the rules and make refernce to them
constantly (discussions of where the Three Ladies can and cannot
manifest in Season of the Mists and Desire's oath on the First Circle
are the first two examples I thought of from a list of hundreds).
However, these rules are not always barriers to doing things.
Sometimes, they can be and are ignored. Certain people do it a lot
(Delirium), other sometimes (Death), others rarely (Dream). Thessaly's
conversation with Dream in #65 reveals a lot: "...I could do it without
breaking the circle." "Without breaking the circle, perhaps. But
without breaking the *rules*?" "No...." Dream could do it, but he
chooses not to in deference to "the rules."
So, the sigils are the ways the Endless are supposed to communicate
with each other, but that doesn't mean they have to. It's an accepted
formality, but not always binding.
Second, a minor point, Death's ankh in _The High Cost of Living_:
bai...@cs.man.ac.uk (Anthony John Bailey) wrote:
>Gabriel Palczewski <azr...@grfn.org> writes:
>Death mini-series. Death's sigil is stolen by The Eremite, and she
>replaces it with one bought from a street market. (It does cost her,
>though, and it *is* the only thing she pays for throughout the story!)
>
I think that her paying for the sigil has less to do with the fact that
she needs to replace her sigil than the theme in _The High Cost of
Living_, that is, every life necessarily has a "cost" (i.e. death).
Death pays for her ankh (here symbolizing life) because Life has a value
only because it must be "paid for" by ending. It's not the only thing
she paid for; her $0.02 put over her eyes "There. THAT's the cost of a
life (referring both to the coins and to death itself)". I think that
the limited series is the best example of why the sigils are not really
all that important in and of themselves; it's what they represent that's
important (in symbolic value and as mewthods of communication)
Third, who really cares? The sigils and galleries are meant to add the
idea of a rich tradition to the characters of the Endless, to add to
story value. They're not very important.
Gabriel Palczewski
> That the sigils have some power is a reasonable inference to draw. It
> appears that they are one way in which an Endless may "pass on" control
> of their realm - in "Brief Lives", Destruction implies he could have
> "landed someone else in the same old mess" by passing on his own sigil,
> and with it the realm of Destruction, to a successor. Taking the sigil
> with him seems to have prevented this, but I suspect it is as much that
> Destruction kept his sigil to symbolise the fact that he didn't want to
> pass his function on, rather than him *having* to take the sigil to
> prevent such a succession.
Its been obvious because Dream always has his helm with him on
"official" business. He wore it to Hell so Lucifer wouldn't attack him or
it would give Lucifer a reason not to evne though I'm sure Lucifer would
go obove the "laws of the universe" and attack someone with immunity
which is what the helm offers. Its been implied many times that the helm
is what makes Dream, Dream. The guardian at the gate of Hell wouldn't let
Dream in at first because he lacked his helm.
> Reasons to think this: Dream passed on the Eagle stone (a conduit for
> his power, but not his official sigil) to Daniel. And look at the first
> Death mini-series. Death's sigil is stolen by The Eremite, and she
> replaces it with one bought from a street market. (It does cost her,
> though, and it *is* the only thing she pays for throughout the story!)
Well the Death serise itself is to be explained because it seemed
with Didi died, Death took her. Didi was merely a reflection of Death
just like when someone dies you see Death but it isnt the only Death.
Obviously Death has to be in many places at one time to get everyone who
dies so I think Death was still doing her errands while she "lived".
Therefore you'd have to get the sigil from the true Death not her mortal
reflection and I think to do that would be impossible because you only
see Death when your about to die.
> Someone else asked for a reference for Death's ability to visit the
> realm of each Endless. I suspect Gabriel is referring to the passage in
> "Brief Lives" where Dream is uncomfortable in the Garden of Destiny -
> it is mentioned there that Death feels comfortable in each of their
> realms, and this distinguishes her from the other Endless.
Thanks. I knew I read that somewhere it just didn't click where thouh.
Andy Perry
Palczewski <azr...@grfn.org> wrote:
> Its been obvious because Dream always has his helm with him on
>"official" business. He wore it to Hell so Lucifer wouldn't attack him or
>it would give Lucifer a reason not to evne though I'm sure Lucifer would
>go obove the "laws of the universe" and attack someone with immunity
>which is what the helm offers.
Um, a helm is a form of armor. Dream wore his helm in Hell, because it
affords protection...direct protection. Not because it represents some
kind of cosmic rule that the endless are immune from attack.
Gabriel Palczewski
> This raises the question of why Dream and Delirium simply couldn't walk
> into Destruction's realm anyway in Brief Lives.
Because he had sealed it off with barriers well enough so not
even they could enter it. Destruction left his realm and made many a good
preperations so he or it couldn't be accessed. He did more then just
close it.
> Please cite where it is shown or stated that Death travels through all of
> her sibling's realms at will.
>
> Dex
>
>
I wish I could remember. I did read it somewhere that she is the
only member of the Endless who travels into the other realms freely.
Rune ShadowMaster
: On Sat, 2 Dec 1995, Gabriel Palczewski wrote:
: >
: > 4. The relams of the Endless can be entered easily with use of a call
: > using the Sigil but any Endless or strong magical being can enter
: > unannounced. If the realm and sigil are closed off then only the truely
: > powerful could enter.
: This raises the question of why Dream and Delirium simply couldn't walk
: into Destruction's realm anyway in Brief Lives.
My only theory on this is the fact that Destruction *whose realm is,
well, the most explosive and violent of the Endless, I'd assume* sealed
off his realm from intrusion efficiently enough to prevent anyone-
including another Endless- from entering. 'That way... no one's to blame.'
Yes, Delirium sealed off her realm. But it's the difference of a teenager
slamming the door when she *Del* KNOWS she's doing it to get her family's
attention, and a journeyman *Dest* locking up his house meticulously
because he's going off for a long, long time.
My $0.02 :)
-J.
--
_____________________________________________________________________________
Joseph A. Schweinzer ru...@netcom.com
Freelance Photo/Videographer Beeper: 800 923-5291
"That this world forgets me is all I ask." -Elric of Melnibone
_____________________________________________________________________________
Mr William Kartalopoulos
> : > 5. Since the Sigil's are the badge of office if an Endless member were
> : > Endless member and/or lose their envoy immunity in other realms
I don't think the Endless automatically have immunity in other realms. I
seem to recall Dream visiting Del in "Brief Lives..." Del threatened to
make him go insane, saying something like, "You're not wearing your helm.
I could do that..." I think the Endless choose to put their power into
something (it can be whatever they want), but whatever it is, that item
shows up in the others' gallery as the sigil. So if Death were to
transfer her power from her ankh to.... a Debbie Gibson CD, that CD would
show up in the galleries.
Just some pocket change...
--Bill.
----
William S. Kartalopoulos
w...@dartmouth.edu
http://mmm.dartmouth.edu/pages/wsk/
*Please Note:* My UCL Address (w.karta...@ucl.ac.uk -or- ucr...@ucl.ac.uk) will not be valid after December 15, 1995. Please use my Dartmouth address, which I have access to currently. Thanks...
"What is it to be born free and not to live free?"
--Henry David Thoreau
Kidd Miracle
> Kidd Miracle (Kmi...@po-box.mcgill.edu) wrote:
> : GHOSTDANCE <pete...@river.it.gvsu.edu> writes:
> : >
> (deletia)
> : >
> : > I'd imagine that the sigils, partially at least, obey the same "varied
> : > a story set in ancient times where Destiny is hefting around a huge, fat
> : > scroll!
> : >
> : > Dex
>
> : Destiny today might just carry around a notebook computer, if it was such.
>
> : kidd
>
> I don't see why it couldn't be a "perception thing". After all, most of
> us still use books more than notebook computers. The concept of "Destiny's
> Book" sounds more appropriate, even today, than "Destiny's Notebook Computer".
> However, if notebooks ever became so widely popular that they became
> the standard for print media exchange, perhaps people would start to
> see Destiny's book as a notebook computer.
>
That would be REALLY cheesy.
It reminds me of Alan Moore's Spawn #8 afterlife.
That was cheesy, post-modern, but it was meant to be.
You sound sincere, but I can't see that happening.
We saw Destiny's death at the end of time in Books of Magic
#4. He was still hefting that book, long after ALL other
books were gone.
Kidd
Sebastian Weinberg
bai...@cs.man.ac.uk (Anthony John Bailey) wrote:
: Gabriel Palczewski <azr...@grfn.org> writes:
: > After looking over my issues its fairly indisputable how the
: > Endless's sigil's work in appearance that is. Here's how it goes...
:
: You *know* we won't let a remark like *that* go unchallenged... (-:
:
: > 5. Since the Sigil's are the badge of office if an Endless member were
: > to lose their Sigil or give it up they would lose their status as an
: > Endless member and/or lose their envoy immunity in other realms
:
: That the sigils have some power is a reasonable inference to draw. It
: appears that they are one way in which an Endless may "pass on" control
: of their realm - in "Brief Lives", Destruction implies he could have
: "landed someone else in the same old mess" by passing on his own sigil,
: and with it the realm of Destruction, to a successor. Taking the sigil
: with him seems to have prevented this, but I suspect it is as much that
: Destruction kept his sigil to symbolise the fact that he didn't want to
: pass his function on, rather than him *having* to take the sigil to
: prevent such a succession.
I agree. The power does not come from the sigil, but from what the
Endless does with it.
Had Destruction just left his sigil behind and someone had picked it
up, I doubt that that someone would have become the new Destruction.
The "passing on" is the vital part here. (Except if Destruction had
left the sigil behind explicitly for the purpose of it being picked
up)
When Dreams sigil was taken away, he remained Dream of the Endless,
albeit a rather powerless one, since the forcible taking of a sigil
is a highly symbolic act. He probably could have replaced it just as
easily as Death in the mini-series, but chose to seek it out and
exact revenge. At least that's how I would explain this incongruence,
if i was Neil :)
Bast!
--
<http://enterprise.mathematik.uni-essen.de/~bastian/>
Comics reviewed
Gabriel Palczewski
> I don't think the Endless automatically have immunity in other realms. I
> seem to recall Dream visiting Del in "Brief Lives..." Del threatened to
> make him go insane, saying something like, "You're not wearing your helm.
> I could do that..." I think the Endless choose to put their power into
> something (it can be whatever they want), but whatever it is, that item
> shows up in the others' gallery as the sigil. So if Death were to
> transfer her power from her ankh to.... a Debbie Gibson CD, that CD would
> show up in the galleries.
They have it if they have their sigils with them. Destruction has
his with him, Death always has hers as does Destiny. I think they can be
attacked with their sigils with them but its probably breaking some great
universal law just like attacking Cain cuz of his mark.
Ben of Bens
Surely the reason Dream needs his helm is 'cos he made to protect him and it
holds a fair amount of his power etc.; This also may be why he uses it as
his sigil but I think you're investing too much whatsit in the symbol.
Ben
Gabriel Palczewski
> That would be REALLY cheesy.
> It reminds me of Alan Moore's Spawn #8 afterlife.
> That was cheesy, post-modern, but it was meant to be.
> You sound sincere, but I can't see that happening.
> We saw Destiny's death at the end of time in Books of Magic
> #4. He was still hefting that book, long after ALL other
> books were gone.
>
> Kidd
>
>
Thats because Mr. E and <forgot the kid's name> were looking at
Destiny when he died and naturally from their time period of the 20th
Century books were still what was being used. Same with Death. He ankh
would have been outdated by a few million years at the end of time but
they still had a 20th Century perception.
Yngvar Folling
Gabriel Palczewski <azr...@grfn.org> wrote:
> > We saw Destiny's death at the end of time in Books of Magic
> > #4. He was still hefting that book, long after ALL other
> > books were gone.
> >
> > Kidd
> >
> >
> Thats because Mr. E and <forgot the kid's name> were looking at
> Destiny when he died and naturally from their time period of the 20th
> Century books were still what was being used. Same with Death. He ankh
> would have been outdated by a few million years at the end of time but
> they still had a 20th Century perception.
I suppose that explains why Orpheus found Death in a 20th century
apartment then.
The kid's name is Tim Hunter.
Yngvar
Brad Fox
>We saw Destiny's death at the end of time in Books of Magic
>#4. He was still hefting that book, long after ALL other
>books were gone.
>
>Kidd
Well if you want to stick to the letter of this "perception"
theroy, it was Tim who was perceiving Destiny, and so HIS perceptions
would still be of the most widely accepted media form. If someone from
the past went to the end of time, they might as well perceived one mother
of stone tablets. Who knows?
-Brad
------------------------------------------------------------------------
fo...@cadvision.com -Sig. Free Zone-
Sebastian Weinberg
Kmi...@po-box.mcgill.edu (Kidd Miracle) wrote:
: dur...@mik.uky.edu (Bryan Durall) writes:
: > Kidd Miracle (Kmi...@po-box.mcgill.edu) wrote:
: > : GHOSTDANCE <pete...@river.it.gvsu.edu> writes:
: > : > I'd imagine that the sigils, partially at least, obey the same "varied
: > : > perception" effect that the Endless themselves have. I would love to see
: > : > a story set in ancient times where Destiny is hefting around a huge, fat
: > : > scroll!
: > : Naw, it can't be a perception thing.
: > : Destiny today might just carry around a notebook computer, if it was such.
: > I don't see why it couldn't be a "perception thing". After all, most of
: > us still use books more than notebook computers. The concept of "Destiny's
: > Book" sounds more appropriate, even today, than "Destiny's Notebook Computer".
: > However, if notebooks ever became so widely popular that they became
: > the standard for print media exchange, perhaps people would start to
: > see Destiny's book as a notebook computer.
[snip]
: You sound sincere, but I can't see that happening.
: We saw Destiny's death at the end of time in Books of Magic
: #4. He was still hefting that book, long after ALL other
: books were gone.
The key to the perception changes is symbolism *and* the fact
that we are reading the stories in *this* time.
We percieve the Endless' sigils (and other things) as the things
most symbolic to *us* at *this time*.
To us Destiny's sigil is, was and will be the book, because this
picture conveys ancient wisdom.
If I had to design an icon for destruction or war It would either
be a sword or an atomic mushroom cloud (and since the cloud is
not carriable, it would be the sword).
The Endless have some power over the way these symbols appear to
us. Who of us could honestly say that they knew the exact meaning
of the Ankh hieroglyph before we got interested by seeing Death
wearing it? But if nobody today had ever seen or heard of this
hieroglyph, I doubt, we would see Death wearing it.
Let's talk about Death's realm in _The Song of Orpheus_.
Can we really be so self-centered to assume that Death actually
chose our particular timeline to be the model for her living
quarters throughout time and space?
No, we percieved Orpheus entering Death's realm as she is most
comfortable with and *our own minds*, rooted in this time,
automatically filled in the environment *we* are most comfortable
with. Alternatively, it could be presumed that not the readers'
minds make these substitutions, but the minds of the storytellers.
That would explain why the symbols sometimes change depending on
the time the story takes place in, because our minds would
probably balk at too obvious anachronisms (Destruction using a
laser blaster as his sigil around 4500 B.C.), while at other times
they don't.
In how far the Endless chose to define his or her sigil
(appearance, realm, etc.) might also play a role in what our mind
chooses as a suitable symbol.
So, what did y'all th... Ooops, that's not my signature.
Bast!
--
<http://enterprise.mathematik.uni-essen.de/~bastian/>
Comics reviewed
--
Q. How many Mahayana Buddhists does it take to change a light bulb?
A. Four. One to change the light bulb, one to not change the light bulb,
one to not not change the light bulb, and one to not do any of these.
Nels Lindquist
>Kidd Miracle wrote:
>>
>> That would be REALLY cheesy.
>> It reminds me of Alan Moore's Spawn #8 afterlife.
>> That was cheesy, post-modern, but it was meant to be.
>> You sound sincere, but I can't see that happening.
>> We saw Destiny's death at the end of time in Books of Magic
>> #4. He was still hefting that book, long after ALL other
>> books were gone.
>
> Thats because Mr. E and <forgot the kid's name> were looking at
>Destiny when he died and naturally from their time period of the 20th
>Century books were still what was being used. Same with Death. He ankh
>would have been outdated by a few million years at the end of time but
>they still had a 20th Century perception.
Say WHAT? Since when is an ankh--an ancient Egyptian symbol
representing *life*--symbolic of Death in 20th Century mythology?
(Not counting _Sandman_, of course... :) If it's a matter of
perception, then why don't we view Death's sigil as a
skull-'n'-crossbones, or a scythe, or something else more
traditionally associated with the Grim Reaper?
I'd have to side with Kidd on this one--I think it's a matter
of personal choice on the part of the Endless involved. Death's
choice of an ankh as her sigil is a particularly interesting
commentary on her personality and nature (and perhaps her appreciation
of irony).
As for Sebastian's comments on there being a discrepancy between
Death replacing her sigil so easily in the miniseries vs. Morpheus
not doing the same after being released from imprisonment, I'd
have to disagree again. I thought those two situations were
catagorically different. For one thing, we are given indicators
throughout the _Death_ miniseries that her acquisition of a new
sigil is meant to happen--she has only enough money to purchase
a new sigil, plus two pennies for the ferryman. Death's taking mortal
form for a brief period once a year is a special case--I don't think
the normal rules have to apply. Neil doesn't need to explain
anything. :-)
Nels Lindquist
--
God does not play dice with the universe; He plays an ineffable game
of His own devising, which might be compared, from the perspective of
any of the other players (ie, everybody), to being involved in an
obscure and complex version of poker in a pitch dark room, with blank
cards, for infinite stakes, with a Dealer who won't tell you the
rules, and who _smiles all the time_.
_Good Omens_, by Terry Pratchett & Neil Gaiman
Thistle
> > Thats because Mr. E and <forgot the kid's name> were looking at
> >Destiny when he died and naturally from their time period of the 20th
> >Century books were still what was being used. Same with Death. He ankh
> >would have been outdated by a few million years at the end of time but
> >they still had a 20th Century perception.
>
> Say WHAT? Since when is an ankh--an ancient Egyptian symbol
> representing *life*--symbolic of Death in 20th Century mythology?
> (Not counting _Sandman_, of course... :) If it's a matter of
> perception, then why don't we view Death's sigil as a
> skull-'n'-crossbones, or a scythe, or something else more
> traditionally associated with the Grim Reaper?
>
> I'd have to side with Kidd on this one--I think it's a matter
> of personal choice on the part of the Endless involved. Death's
> choice of an ankh as her sigil is a particularly interesting
> commentary on her personality and nature (and perhaps her appreciation
> of irony).
>
must comment on this. Death's ties to Egypt are only natural. Egyptian
culture is tied to death. They prepared for it at their birth. Palaces
and homes were built poorly due to the fact that they only had to last a
lifetime; tombs (like the pyramids and mastabas) were meant to last till
eternity. Death changed the pharoah from a messanger of Ra to an actual
God (in many dynasties) and while it was a sad time, Death was often
welcomed because it meant an eternity of divinity (for a pharoah) or
wealth. So one would imagine that Death would recieve a rather warm
reception from most of the ancient Egyptians. The Ankh did not just
represent life. Since life is made more special by death, the ankh
represented the union between the afterlife and this life. Today, the
ankh has been simplified to mean life, but then life meant nothing without
death therefore the ankh meant both. So Death's ankh is symbolic to her
connections to both birth and afterlife and is not ironic in the least.
Whether she chose it, or it's perception, I lean towards the chosing of
sigils. Would you pick a helm as Dream's sigil? Or what about Despair's
ring thing-a-ma-bob? But this is just the opinion of a newbie and
probably been heard before...
--
JONATHAN DEMERS
: As for Sebastian's comments on there being a discrepancy between
: Death replacing her sigil so easily in the miniseries vs. Morpheus
: not doing the same after being released from imprisonment, I'd
: have to disagree again. I thought those two situations were
: catagorically different. For one thing, we are given indicators
: throughout the _Death_ miniseries that her acquisition of a new
: sigil is meant to happen--she has only enough money to purchase
: a new sigil, plus two pennies for the ferryman. Death's taking mortal
: form for a brief period once a year is a special case--I don't think
: the normal rules have to apply. Neil doesn't need to explain
: anything. :-)
pouch and ruby. We never have any indication that Death put any of her
power into the ankh save through reference.
---Jon Demers
: Nels Lindquist
Gabriel Palczewski
> Also, remember, Dream put a lot of his power into the helmet,
> pouch and ruby. We never have any indication that Death put any of her
> power into the ankh save through reference.
Actually thats incorrect to a point. Sure Dream has power in his
Helm its the power he took to create it but the helm itself has no
significant power. In DC's WHO'S WHO for their RPG the Helm has no
importance other then its his sigil so people know him. It can't go off
and shoot lasers or anything and unlike the pouch or ruby it doesn't give
him any extra power except maybe officiality.
Mike Jones
Gabriel Palczewski <azr...@grfn.org> wrote:
> Actually thats incorrect to a point. Sure Dream has power in his
>Helm its the power he took to create it but the helm itself has no
>significant power. In DC's WHO'S WHO for their RPG the Helm has no
>importance other then its his sigil so people know him. It can't go off
>and shoot lasers or anything and unlike the pouch or ruby it doesn't give
>him any extra power except maybe officiality.
BTW, does anyone have any recollection of Dream using the pouch at all since
"The Sound of her Wings"? What was it good for? The helm had symbolic
significance, the ruby was a repository/lens for his power, and... the pouch
was full of sand so the could call the series the Sandman. It was never given
any background, it's properties were insignificant and redundant compared to
Dream's intrinsic abilites, and it was quickly forgotten about. One of the few
threads that Neil never chose to pick up on at a later date.
Mike Jones
Katie Schwarz
>
>BTW, does anyone have any recollection of Dream using the pouch at all since
>"The Sound of her Wings"? What was it good for? The helm had symbolic
>significance, the ruby was a repository/lens for his power, and... the pouch
>was full of sand so the could call the series the Sandman. It was never given
>any background, it's properties were insignificant and redundant compared to
>Dream's intrinsic abilites, and it was quickly forgotten about. One of the few
>threads that Neil never chose to pick up on at a later date.
He uses the pouch at the beginning of A Game of You: he's looking out
toward the skerries of the Dreaming, and sprinkles some sand from the pouch
on the water as some sort of divining ceremony. After looking at the images
formed by the sand he tells Matthew that great winds are coming, much pain,
one of the skerries is dying, etc. I think that's the only time he used it
since #4. The pouch seemed to be mostly just a piece of insignia; Dream
gives it to Matthew along with the helm to take back to his successor when
he dies.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Katie Schwarz ka...@physics.berkeley.edu
"There's no need to look for a Chimera, or a cat with three legs."
-- Jorge Luis Borges, "Death and the Compass"
Carl Fink
ka...@physics12.Berkeley.EDU (Katie Schwarz) wrote:
>Mike Jones <mi...@mantis.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>BTW, does anyone have any recollection of Dream using the pouch at all since
>>threads that Neil never chose to pick up on at a later date.
>
He also uses it to put Lady Johanna Constantine's thugs to sleep, when
she first intrudes on his meeting with Hob.
--
Carl Fink ca...@panix.com madsci...@genie.com
Assistant Sysop, GEnie's First and Fourth Science Fiction RoundTables
The SFRT page has moved AGAIN, to http://www.sfrt.com/sfrt1
Brendan
>In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.951223151410.25322A-100000@freenet>,
>Gabriel Palczewski <azr...@grfn.org> wrote:
>> Actually thats incorrect to a point. Sure Dream has power in his
>>Helm its the power he took to create it but the helm itself has no
>>significant power. In DC's WHO'S WHO for their RPG the Helm has no
>>importance other then its his sigil so people know him. It can't go off
>>and shoot lasers or anything and unlike the pouch or ruby it doesn't give
>>him any extra power except maybe officiality.
>
>"The Sound of her Wings"?
>
>
He uses it in "A Game of You, pt 1."
-Brendan
____________________________________
"all my words are secondhand,
and useless in the face of this"
-The Sisters of Mercy
"the dullard sees no eros in fine
champagne; the sorcerer can
fall intoxicated on a glass of
water"
-Hakim Bey
Gabriel Palczewski
On 6 Jan 1996, David Mastroianni wrote:
> In "Brief Lives," when Dream goes to visit Del in her realm, she says she
> could do something nasty to him. Something like, "I could do that, you
> don't even have your helm." And before that, when Lucifer meets him as
> Hell is closing down, Dream seems afraid to remove his helm. It must be
> doing *something* for him. Or is its significance more social? Like it
> wouldn't be kosher for an enemy to fight dirty with him when he has his
> helm? I could picture Del and Lucifer being polite in this respect, if
> it's a real rule, but it seems pretty forced. I'd prefer to think the
> helm has actual power to protect him from attacks.
> Am i wrong?
> David Mastroianni
>
>
Its merely his badge of office. DC's WHO'S WHO for the RPG
(updated last in 1992 i think) list it has having nothing but a body
class of 16 and it gives Dream immunity as an envoy to other realms. He
can be attacked with it on but it would be breaking great cosmic rules.
Sorta like attacking Cain cuz of his mark, Lucifer said "We may not give
you our permission" because if he did he'd be breaking laws, he could
even bring something down on his head like maybe a mass attack froms ome
omnipotent force? Who knows.
David Mastroianni
Rose...@nwu.edu
Palczewski <azr...@grfn.org> wrote:
>
> Its merely his badge of office. DC's WHO'S WHO for the RPG
> (updated last in 1992 i think) list it has having nothing but a body
> class of 16 and it gives Dream immunity as an envoy to other realms. He
> can be attacked with it on but it would be breaking great cosmic rules.
> Sorta like attacking Cain cuz of his mark, Lucifer said "We may not give
> you our permission" because if he did he'd be breaking laws, he could
> even bring something down on his head like maybe a mass attack froms ome
> omnipotent force? Who knows.
That helm is such a non-sequitur. You have to admire Gaiman for the way
in which he escaped the creative gravity of the previous Sandmen by
transmuting that gas mask into a "helm." You know, it LOOKS like
something you might encounter in a dream. It seems somehow logical, though
it is perfectly ridiculous.
H.
Either Jill or Steve
Don't know you'll have to ask Mr Gaiman. Personnaly I think it's less
clear cut. It Dream's wearing his helm he's in his 'official capacity'
and thus his hosts are obliged to be nice to him (one of those 'rules things')
I also seem to remember something about an old myth which means the devil
doesn't deceive people who're wearing a hat.
Of course the explaination could be just me.
Stephen