No comments on the new Catwoman?
Les Bonser
I was less than impressed.
<Spoilers>
<Spoilers>
Since when has Dr. Thompkins practice psychiatry? It certainly hasn't helped
Bruce any!
And what's the deal with Selina and Bruce? All of a sudden they're friends
and he's referring her to his doctor? Now, I'm the first to cheer for a
Bruce/Selina romance, but this seemed to come out of nowhere. Last we saw
them interact much, in JLA and Batman's titles, Bruce had manipulated Selina
into helping with the resolution of No Man's Land and defeating Promethus,
and other odd problems. At the time, it struck me that Selina was really
po'd about being treated that way.
So far, in Catwoman #1, she doesn't seem too mad about the whole thing.
Also, I thought TPTB at DC had steered away from the whole "Batman: Year One
Selina used to be a hooker" thing? But this whole story seems to be leading
up to Selina reacquainting herself with Holly, and finding the bastard who's
killing prostitutes. This is absolute acknowledgement of her past life. So I
guess the retcon has been retconned.
Dwight Williams
>
> Well, it's somewhat understandable....
>
> I was less than impressed.
>
> <Spoilers>
>
> <Spoilers>
>
> Since when has Dr. Thompkins practice psychiatry? It certainly hasn't helped
> Bruce any!
Mostly because Bruce tends to shun it, for good and ill.
As for Leslie...I suspect that it's something she's had to learn "on the
fly" if she was to be of any help at all with her own "greater jihad"(or
personal struggles, if you prefer) as a healer and social activist in
Park Row.
> And what's the deal with Selina and Bruce? All of a sudden they're friends
> and he's referring her to his doctor? Now, I'm the first to cheer for a
> Bruce/Selina romance, but this seemed to come out of nowhere. Last we saw
> them interact much, in JLA and Batman's titles, Bruce had manipulated Selina
> into helping with the resolution of No Man's Land and defeating Promethus,
> and other odd problems. At the time, it struck me that Selina was really
> po'd about being treated that way.
Depends on whether or not he's already apologized to her for all of
that...and whether or not she agreed with the reasons. Six months seems
enough time for him to get that baggage out of the way while no one
other than Leslie was looking.
> So far, in Catwoman #1, she doesn't seem too mad about the whole thing.
>
> Also, I thought TPTB at DC had steered away from the whole "Batman: Year One
> Selina used to be a hooker" thing? But this whole story seems to be leading
> up to Selina reacquainting herself with Holly, and finding the bastard who's
> killing prostitutes. This is absolute acknowledgement of her past life. So I
> guess the retcon has been retconned.
So it would seem.
--
Dwight Williams - Orleans(Ottawa), ON, Canada
Personal Homesite: http://www.ncf.ca/~ad696/
*I* own my Usenet postings, not some archival service!
Gérard Morvan
"Dwight Williams" <ad...@freenet.carleton.ca> a écrit dans le message news:
3C068424...@ncf.ca...
This is absolute acknowledgement of her past life. So I
> > guess the retcon has been retconned.
>
> So it would seem.
>
in the Actuon Comics Weekly story ? Oh, wait, that was pre-Zero Hour and
pre-Hypertime. "Well, Never Mind!"
Gérard Morvan
Rob Petersen
> Well, it's somewhat understandable....
>
> I was less than impressed.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> <Spoilers>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> <Spoilers>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Also, I thought TPTB at DC had steered away from the whole "Batman: Year
One
> Selina used to be a hooker" thing? But this whole story seems to be
leading
> up to Selina reacquainting herself with Holly, and finding the bastard
who's
> killing prostitutes. This is absolute acknowledgement of her past life. So
I
> guess the retcon has been retconned.
I'm still confused by the text page stating that this story was originally
slated for the now-defunct series. How in the hell could they pull that off
? The text page states point blank that the whole sister storyline is being
ignored by this new title, yet the arcs before ending the past series deal
with her.
I like Brubakers work and am happy to see him on another monthly title. But
shouldn't the editors of this book have put the character, the post-zero
hour established stories and, as you point out with regards to the hooker
thing, current continuity ahead of being a fan-boy and giving him, as the
text piece reads to me, free reign to change whatever he feels necessary to
tell his story ?
--
Your pal, Rob
www.robertjpetersen.com
Scott Bierworth
> Well, it's somewhat understandable....
>
> I was less than impressed.
I would have liked it a lot better if it has been Catwoman # 95. The writing
was okay, but I didn't care for the art at all. This did not warrant a new
first issue by any stretch of the imagination. Seeing the book, I realize the
editor must have realized the only way anyone would even be willing to give the
art half a chance was to slap a number 1 on the cover. I think it's ironic that
they renumered because the look was so "different" and the artist is leaving
after the 4th issue.
Chong Yidong
> Since when has Dr. Thompkins practice psychiatry?
I noticed this too. Furthermore, psychoanalysis (which she seems to be
practicing in the story) is not psychiatry...
Michael Ward
"Rob Petersen" <inte...@robertjpetersen.com.remove.invalid> wrote in
message news:9u64pl$8n3$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
> "Les Bonser" <lbo...@worldnet.att.net> wrote
>
> > Well, it's somewhat understandable....
> >
> > I was less than impressed.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > <Spoilers>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > <Spoilers>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Also, I thought TPTB at DC had steered away from the whole "Batman: Year
> One
> > Selina used to be a hooker" thing? But this whole story seems to be
> leading
> > up to Selina reacquainting herself with Holly, and finding the bastard
> who's
> > killing prostitutes. This is absolute acknowledgement of her past life.
So
> I
> > guess the retcon has been retconned.
>
You mean the retconning of the retcon has been retconed.
Bill Svitavsky
Maybe she took some night courses, along with Hugo Strange.
- Bill Svitavsky
Mike Jozic
Scott Bierworth wrote:
Darwyn was never supposed to stay on for more than four issues. If you want more
info you can check out the interview I did with Ed at Silver Bullet Comicbooks, but
it was always planned as a temp thing to relaunch and redesign the character. Brad
Rader was selected as the next artist because of a similar approach to his art, and
an image of Brad's work can be seen in the interview and at Ed's site,
www.edbrubaker.com.
I personally think the new series is fantastic, but I was never a fan of the old
series.
Anyway, I just posted in defence of Darwyn. :)
mike jozic
Matches Malone
<her...@club-internet.fr> said
>Something else that has been retconned: Holly is alive ? Wasn't she killed
>in the Actuon Comics Weekly story ? Oh, wait, that was pre-Zero Hour and
>pre-Hypertime. "Well, Never Mind!"
I think that story got retconned a long while back, since it showed
Catwoman killing someone. They usually try to steer Selina clear of
that particular crime.
--
"Oh sure, like lawyers work in big skyscrapers and have secretaries.
Look at him. He's wearing a belt! That's Hollywood for you."
- Lionel Hutz, watching L.A. Law
Matches Malone
<inte...@robertjpetersen.com.remove.invalid> said
>I like Brubakers work and am happy to see him on another monthly title. But
>shouldn't the editors of this book have put the character, the post-zero
>hour established stories and, as you point out with regards to the hooker
>thing, current continuity ahead of being a fan-boy and giving him, as the
>text piece reads to me, free reign to change whatever he feels necessary to
>tell his story ?
To be fair, the old series left things a more or less
incomprehensible mess. J.F. Moore did a pretty good job of tying
things up, but good lord he inherited a disaster. Trying to make
sense of the last year and a half of the previous series is an absurd
task.
Shawn Hill
: As if from nowhere, on Thu, 29 Nov 2001 13:48:29 -0600 "Rob Petersen"
: <inte...@robertjpetersen.com.remove.invalid> said
: To be fair, the old series left things a more or less
: incomprehensible mess. J.F. Moore did a pretty good job of tying
: things up, but good lord he inherited a disaster. Trying to make
: sense of the last year and a half of the previous series is an absurd
: task.
Sometimes it's better to cut and run. Presumably, this new look/concept is
a jumping on point for people. I'm more than happy to ignore the previous
series (which I never bought to the jiggling boobs in the hated costume)
altogether.
This Selina looks cool again.
Shawn
Michael Ward
"Les Bonser" <lbo...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:B82BA485.1A842%lbo...@worldnet.att.net...
> Well, it's somewhat understandable....
>
> I was less than impressed.
>
Same here. I was paricularly disapponted since
Brubaker's Batman is the only Bat title I like
right now and I'd hoped his Catwoman would
be equally good.
My biggest complaint is that I don't care to pay
$2.50 to see Catwoman think out loud for 22 pages.
How about some story next time.
Actually for me there isn't going to be a next time.
In the past I'd give a title a dozen second chances
before dropping but I've run out of patience in the
last couple of years.
Mike
Brenda W. Clough
Shawn Hill wrote:
Yes -- when the jugs are bigger than the head, it's time to drop the title.
Brenda
--
What do you do with a secret?
Whisper it in a desert at high noon.
Lock it up and bury the key.
Tell the nation on prime-time TV.
Choose a door . . .
Doors of Death and Life
by Brenda W. Clough
http://www.sff.net/people/Brenda
Tor Books
ISBN 0-312-87064-7
Scott Zeller
> How about some story next time.
>
> Actually for me there isn't going to be a next time.
> In the past I'd give a title a dozen second chances
> before dropping but I've run out of patience in the
> last couple of years.
Wow, you're more generous than I am. I only give it one
second-chance... and that isn't even looking at a second issue. If I
look at a book I'm interested in and find that I'm not, I'll set it
back on the shelf and go look at the rest of the comics on my list. I
then circulate back and look at the ones I initially reshelved. If it
gets set down a second time, there's almost no chance that I'll ever
pick the book up in the future (given the same creative team).
Actually, Catwoman got three looks from me (X-Force 116 was the only
one that's gotten more and that I actually ended up buying). Each
time, I became a little less enamored of it. The art was good and the
story (such as it was) was a decent reset. I guess I didn't think the
the art (which reminded me of Batman Adventures) didn't mix well with
a story about a prostitute-killer.
Thanks,
Scott
MegaGear X
a jumping on point for people. I'm more than happy to ignore the previous
series (which I never bought to the jiggling boobs in the hated costume)
altogether.
>
> This Selina looks cool again. >>
This Selina is only "normal human" Selina. Not "Catwoman" at all. When are they
gonna put Poison Ivy in black leather and get rid of her plant gimmick? Or
better yet put Batman in a bomber jacket and black leather biker duds. This
"normalization" crap blows in a super hero universe.
Sorry, but I like my Catwoman in a cat costume complete with long hair, boobs
and tail. Otherwise she is Black Widow for DC.
--------------------------------------------------------
"Feel the storm? It's coming!"
-Terry Bogard, Fatal Fury Movie
"Oh, where was I? Ah! Mindless destruction!"
-BW Megatron
"They aren't real, but they are FABULOUS!"
-Kimberly Page
Luis Dantas
>
> I was less than impressed.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> <Spoilers>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> <Spoilers>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Since when has Dr. Thompkins practice psychiatry? It certainly hasn't helped
> Bruce any!
True enough, but then, Nightwing, Alfred and Robin have been trying
to ease Bruce out of his obssession for years. It just isn't an easy
task to fulfill.
As for Dr. Thompkins, I take it that you did not read Azrael as of
the last days of the white costume. For a good while, Dr. Thompkins
was pretty much cast in that role (of a psychotherapist, not necessarily
psychiatrist, mind you. For some reason americans seem to confuse
the two professions). Actually, I think her closeness to Bruce is
more than enough reason to motivate her to get some sort of
psychotherapeutic training. Heck, for all I know, she either
graduated in psychiatry the first time around, or took that as
a secondary specialization since (psychiatry is a medicine
specialization).
> And what's the deal with Selina and Bruce? All of a sudden they're friends
> and he's referring her to his doctor? Now, I'm the first to cheer for a
> Bruce/Selina romance, but this seemed to come out of nowhere. Last we saw
> them interact much, in JLA and Batman's titles, Bruce had manipulated Selina
> into helping with the resolution of No Man's Land and defeating Prometheus,
> and other odd problems. At the time, it struck me that Selina was really
> po'd about being treated that way.
IIRC, it was Selina who decided to disguise as Lois Lane and infiltrate
the Watchtower. Since Batman has been written as an omnipotent being
in JLA, odds are that he "allowed" her to, but that is a long shot from
"manipulating" her to fight Prometheus.
NML is another matter entirely, but even there Selina had her own agenda
and pursued it.
John Thorenson
>and tail. Otherwise she is Black Widow for DC.
yeah i hate all that stupid characterization and storytelling too.
__
"The major problem is that millions of people will have already played these
games on the PS2 by the time the Xbox versions come out." Shane, Gamespot.com
letters, 11/29/01
Shawn Hill
: << > Sometimes it's better to cut and run. Presumably, this new look/concept is
: a jumping on point for people. I'm more than happy to ignore the previous
: series (which I never bought to the jiggling boobs in the hated costume)
: altogether.
:>
:> This Selina looks cool again. >>
: This Selina is only "normal human" Selina. Not "Catwoman" at all. When are they
: gonna put Poison Ivy in black leather and get rid of her plant gimmick? Or
: better yet put Batman in a bomber jacket and black leather biker duds. This
: "normalization" crap blows in a super hero universe.
But it's not like Selina EVER had powers, unless you want to count some
kind of mystic/psychic connection to kitties. Like Batman, she relies on
her wits, agility and intelligence.
: Sorry, but I like my Catwoman in a cat costume complete with long hair, boobs
: and tail. Otherwise she is Black Widow for DC.
Wouldn't that be a good thing? The Black Widow is a far more compelling
character than the version of Catwoman whose major power is her pontoon
breasts.
The difference, I guess, is that Selina isn't a spy/gov't agent but a
true outsider/rogue/vigilante/villain/theif.
Shawn
M-Wolverine
> << > Sometimes it's better to cut and run. Presumably, this new look/concept is
> a jumping on point for people. I'm more than happy to ignore the previous
> series (which I never bought to the jiggling boobs in the hated costume)
> altogether.
> >
> > This Selina looks cool again. >>
>
> This Selina is only "normal human" Selina. Not "Catwoman" at all. When are they
> gonna put Poison Ivy in black leather and get rid of her plant gimmick? Or
> better yet put Batman in a bomber jacket and black leather biker duds. This
> "normalization" crap blows in a super hero universe.
>
> Sorry, but I like my Catwoman in a cat costume complete with long hair, boobs
> and tail. Otherwise she is Black Widow for DC.
>
Again, why call a book Catwoman if you don't want to write stories
about Catwoman? Create your own average thief, and if you think the
stories are so good, it'll sell anyway. But they know it won't, so
they piggy-back on the character's name value. Why is she even
CAT-woman, instead of spandex woman?
-Chris C.
And I really don't understand all the boob complaints......if there
was ever one character that should be ridculously hot, it should be
Catwoman. Now when Dr. Light starts tipping over from the, ah,
imbalance, that's another thing.....
Paul O'Brien
<ch...@pnc-wbi.com> writes
> Why is she even
>CAT-woman, instead of spandex woman?
Well, she's still wearing a stylised cat mask. The tail was always
silly.
Paul O'Brien
THE X-AXIS REVIEWS - http://www.esoterica.demon.co.uk
ARTICLE 10 - http://www.ninthart.com
Brevity is the sister of talent.
Shawn Hill
: Again, why call a book Catwoman if you don't want to write stories
: about Catwoman? Create your own average thief, and if you think the
: stories are so good, it'll sell anyway. But they know it won't, so
: they piggy-back on the character's name value. Why is she even
: CAT-woman, instead of spandex woman?
: -Chris C.
: And I really don't understand all the boob complaints......if there
: was ever one character that should be ridculously hot, it should be
: Catwoman. Now when Dr. Light starts tipping over from the, ah,
: imbalance, that's another thing.....
Hot and ridiculous don't always go together. She looks pretty hot now, I
think, in the theif leathers.
Shawn
MegaGear X
boobs and tail. Otherwise she is Black Widow for DC.
yeah i hate all that stupid characterization and storytelling too. >>
I didn't mean that. Thank you for twisting up my words and thoughts. In my
post, I was referring to her gear. I didn't say jack shit about the writing.
Johanna Draper Carlson
> why call a book Catwoman if you don't want to write stories
> about Catwoman?
Obviously, we have very different ideas of what the essentials of the
character are. This issue was more about Catwoman than previous years of the
title, imo.
> Why is she even CAT-woman, instead of spandex woman?
Because she's a CAT burglar?
> And I really don't understand all the boob complaints......if there
> was ever one character that should be ridculously hot, it should be
> Catwoman.
We definitely have very different ideas of the character.
Johanna Draper Carlson joh...@comicsworthreading.com
Reviews of Comics Worth Reading -- http://www.comicsworthreading.com
Newly updated: December Previews, Reviews of Catwoman, JLA, Avengers
MegaGear X
Catwoman? Create your own average thief, and if you think the stories are so
good, it'll sell anyway. But they know it won't, so they piggy-back on the
character's name value. Why is she even CAT-woman, instead of spandex woman?
>>
Word. If she wanted to find Selina Kyle instead of Catwoman, then she shouldn't
even have a cat-mask. Just go plain clothes and maskless. This is another
pointless reboot.
M-Wolverine
> In article <86ac6ac0.0112...@posting.google.com>, M-Wolverine
> <ch...@pnc-wbi.com> writes
> > Why is she even
> >CAT-woman, instead of spandex woman?
>
> Well, she's still wearing a stylised cat mask. The tail was always
> silly.
>
> Paul O'Brien
I'll give you that. But isn't wearing tinted goggles just as silly
for someone who operates solely at night?
-Chris C.
Shawn Hill
: << Again, why call a book Catwoman if you don't want to write stories about
: Catwoman? Create your own average thief, and if you think the stories are so
: good, it'll sell anyway. But they know it won't, so they piggy-back on the
: character's name value. Why is she even CAT-woman, instead of spandex woman?
:>>
: Word. If she wanted to find Selina Kyle instead of Catwoman, then she shouldn't
: even have a cat-mask. Just go plain clothes and maskless. This is another
: pointless reboot.
It's one instigated by Frank Miller, however, in the 80s....the ball's
been dropped since then. And, btw, it's not like the previous book didn't
suck.
Shawn
Robert Bienvenu
> a jumping on point for people. I'm more than happy to ignore the previous
> series (which I never bought to the jiggling boobs in the hated costume)
> altogether.
>
If I'd a known that the previous series featured jiggling boobs, I'd a
bought it. They should advertise these things.
By the way, the new Catwoman is the best thing I've seen from DC since Ollie
Queen returned.
Richard B. Becker
>
> > Sometimes it's better to cut and run. Presumably, this new look/concept is
> > a jumping on point for people. I'm more than happy to ignore the previous
> > series (which I never bought to the jiggling boobs in the hated costume)
> > altogether.
> >
>
> If I'd a known that the previous series featured jiggling boobs, I'd a
> bought it. They should advertise these things.
>
> By the way, the new Catwoman is the best thing I've seen from DC since Ollie
> Queen returned.
...
You don't read much DC, do you?
--Richard
Robert Bienvenu
"Richard B. Becker" <richard...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:3C0DAE83...@mindspring.com...
M-Wolverine
> M-Wolverine at ch...@pnc-wbi.com wrote:
>
> > why call a book Catwoman if you don't want to write stories
> > about Catwoman?
>
> Obviously, we have very different ideas of what the essentials of the
> character are. This issue was more about Catwoman than previous years of the
> title, imo.
Well, the last couple of years sucked, but they were much more like
the psychological slant that this issue took than Balent years
everyone seems to be complaining about.
> > Why is she even CAT-woman, instead of spandex woman?
>
> Because she's a CAT burglar?
Does that make Batman a BAT defender? This is a book about
superheroes. If you don't want to write a superhero title, just a cat
burglar title, don't write Catwoman (oh, but that wouldn't sell, would
it?). You're making my point for me.
> > And I really don't understand all the boob complaints......if there
> > was ever one character that should be ridculously hot, it should be
> > Catwoman.
>
> We definitely have very different ideas of the character.
>
Yes. Apparently to you every woman in comics should be flat-chested,
fat, or just average looking, even the one's who are supposed to be
temptresses.
-Chris C.
M-Wolverine
But they can. And my example is this character should be as unreal as
some steriod pumped hero. I mentioned Dr. Light, not because I didn't
think she was "hot" (liked her more than anyone else did in the JL
titles), but it would be out of character for HER to be ridiculously
hot.
-Chris C.
ShadZ
> > boobs and tail. Otherwise she is Black Widow for DC.
>
> Again, why call a book Catwoman if you don't want to write stories
> about Catwoman? Create your own average thief, and if you think the
> stories are so good, it'll sell anyway. But they know it won't, so
> they piggy-back on the character's name value. Why is she even
> CAT-woman, instead of spandex woman?
To be fair, for many years when she wore the "purple dress costume",
Catwoman's costume did not have a tail (but it did have a mask that
suggested a cat's head). So she has been without a tail for large
parts of her carreer.
Also, the huge breasts have never been a consistant part of the character's
design (unlike, say, Power Girl). Even when Jim Ballent (the artist who first
gave Catwoman enormous hooters) had been drawing Catwoman for several years
and you would think the bodacious ta-tas were part of the standard character
design, other artists did not draw Selina as large -- which means that
they were just Ballent's artist choice, I guess . . .
ShadZ
Shawn Hill
:> Because she's a CAT burglar?
: Does that make Batman a BAT defender? This is a book about
: superheroes. If you don't want to write a superhero title, just a cat
: burglar title, don't write Catwoman (oh, but that wouldn't sell, would
: it?). You're making my point for me.
She's still in costume, isn't she?
: Yes. Apparently to you every woman in comics should be flat-chested,
: fat, or just average looking, even the one's who are supposed to be
: temptresses.
Is this version of Selina really unattractive or average-looking, in any
way? That's one hot femme fatale on the cover.
Shawn
Johanna Draper Carlson
> the last couple of years sucked, but they were much more like
> the psychological slant that this issue took than Balent years
> everyone seems to be complaining about.
The most recent run by Bronwyn Carlton? I disagree -- "women in prison" is
as much a fanboy fantasy cliche as Balent's Boob Lass.
> Does that make Batman a BAT defender? This is a book about
> superheroes.
Actually, no, it isn't. Catwoman's never been a superhero in the standard
sense of the word.
> If you don't want to write a superhero title, just a cat
> burglar title, don't write Catwoman (oh, but that wouldn't sell, would
> it?). You're making my point for me.
No, I'm not, unless your point is that as one of the few known female
characters, Catwoman is an excellent choice to explore the idea of identity
and relationships, especially in terms of defining yourself in terms of
others (as Catwoman used to do in terms of Batman).
> Yes. Apparently to you every woman in comics should be flat-chested,
> fat, or just average looking, even the one's who are supposed to be
> temptresses.
No, not at all. But it's so much more convenient to argue against a strawman
than a live woman, isn't it?
Shawn Hill
:> Sometimes it's better to cut and run. Presumably, this new look/concept is
:> a jumping on point for people. I'm more than happy to ignore the previous
:> series (which I never bought to the jiggling boobs in the hated costume)
:> altogether.
:>
: If I'd a known that the previous series featured jiggling boobs, I'd a
: bought it. They should advertise these things.
Did you miss every single cover their ever was?
: By the way, the new Catwoman is the best thing I've seen from DC since Ollie
: Queen returned.
And these two could even conceivably meet and have a story together.
Canary and Cat could trade notes.
The thing I like about this Selina is how connected to the real, urban
world she is, going on the first issue and the Year One source.
Shawn
quimico
snip
>So
>> I
>> > guess the retcon has been retconned.
>>
>
>You mean the retconning of the retcon has been retconed.
This will just last until...
the retconning of the retcon of the retcon isn't retconned....
quimico
>Yes -- when the jugs are bigger than the head, it's time to drop the title.
Come on... Selina needs to feed her offspring:
Cats have big litters, you know...
MegaGear X
Catwoman's costume did not have a tail (but it did have a mask that suggested a
cat's head). So she has been without a tail for large parts of her carreer.
Also, the huge breasts have never been a consistant part of the character's
design (unlike, say, Power Girl). Even when Jim Ballent (the artist who first
gave Catwoman enormous hooters) had been drawing Catwoman for several years
and you would think the bodacious ta-tas were part of the standard character
design, other artists did not draw Selina as large -- which means that they
were just Ballent's artist choice, I guess . . . >>
Not just Balent.
I just came off reading Batman:Dark Victory. Tim Sale drew Cats with big
hooters, whiskers, no hair in costume and a tail. Now the tail part was
featured in this back in the day story, but for some reason the big hooters was
in there too.
I just assumed that Cats just has big breasts, like Power Girl. Is this an
established fact or just a some artist getting his freak on?
MegaGear X
Actually, no, it isn't. Catwoman's never been a superhero in the standard sense
of the word. >>
Catwoman is in a super hero universe. She's a supervillian turned anti-hero.
She's got a psychological problem that drives her to do things normal folks
wouldn't do, she has a dual identity at night, and she wears a costume like the
other members of Batman's rogues gallery.
Her without a trademark cat costume is like Harley Quinn or Poison Ivy in plain
clothes--unrecognizable.
MegaGear X
No.
She could go out in broad daylight, and aside from hot looking woman, no one
would bat an eye. They'd assume she was a biker or had on a leather outfit. The
only thing about her current gear that screams "Catwoman" is her mask.
Johanna Draper Carlson
>>Catwoman's never been a superhero in the standard sense of the word.
>
> Catwoman is in a super hero universe. She's a supervillian turned anti-hero.
That's what I said -- she's not a superhero. Being someone with abilities in
a superhero setting doesn't automatically make you a superhero.
> Her without a trademark cat costume is like Harley Quinn or Poison Ivy in
> plain clothes--unrecognizable.
It's clear to me that you are most interested in what I would consider
surface elements of the book -- her costume, her boobs, her being seen as
attractive. I'm interested in different things. You had years of the book
being targeted at you; now it's targeted more at someone like me. That may
seem unfair, but it's a common trend in comics to take a new approach for a
fresh start.
I'm sorry you don't think you can enjoy the new title -- shall I recommend
other books you might like more? I hear Vampirella isn't bad, especially
when using writers like Mark Millar. And John Ostrander is going to be doing
a Lady Death issue in February. Maybe you'll like those instead?
M-Wolverine
> M-Wolverine at ch...@pnc-wbi.com wrote:
>
> > the last couple of years sucked, but they were much more like
> > the psychological slant that this issue took than Balent years
> > everyone seems to be complaining about.
>
> The most recent run by Bronwyn Carlton? I disagree -- "women in prison" is
> as much a fanboy fantasy cliche as Balent's Boob Lass.
Nonetheless, Selina has been "Searching for herself" and having
"mental issues" throughout the decline of the last run. No one was
complaining that they were drawing her tits too small, they were
complaining that all this self-searching was out of character for her.
Frankly, for all the Balent complaining, the title was successful when
he was there, and fell into the crapper when he left....And got
canceled (and I don't care what their reasoning is- if a title ends,
it was canceled).
> > Does that make Batman a BAT defender? This is a book about
> > superheroes.
>
> Actually, no, it isn't. Catwoman's never been a superhero in the standard
> sense of the word.
You're right. She's always been a super-villian, if perhaps one who
walked the line closely. Where this idea comes from that someone who
dresses up as a purple cat, robs people with only a whip, and talks
with cats is some bastion of realism in the sea of superheroics, is a
mystery to me. Next, we'll need the Joker to more realistically
represent clowns.....
> > If you don't want to write a superhero title, just a cat
> > burglar title, don't write Catwoman (oh, but that wouldn't sell, would
> > it?). You're making my point for me.
>
> No, I'm not, unless your point is that as one of the few known female
> characters, Catwoman is an excellent choice to explore the idea of identity
> and relationships, especially in terms of defining yourself in terms of
> others (as Catwoman used to do in terms of Batman).
Well, I'd say you are. You're superimposing characteristics that
aren't a part of the character, only because she is a visible female
character. Doesn't matter that it's inconsistent for her. She's out
there, and she's female, so let's do whatever we want wit her.
Catwoman is the other side of the spectrum of the identity-less, meek,
self-searching woman with no confidence in herself. Her whole design,
and in turn threat to Batman (and the male readership...?) is that she
is threatening because she a representation of independence, strength,
and sexuality. She doesn't need anyone else, male or female, and
isn't afraid to show it. Her strength is what makes her interesting,
not her weaknesses. It's one thing to question yourself, and another
to doubt yourself. I don't mind seeing Batman wonder if he did the
right thing in the way he acted, but I don't want to see a bunch of
issues where he doubts his capabilities, and wonders if his mission is
the right course of action. His confidence is a plus with him too.
That's why the two characters play off against each other so well.
> > Yes. Apparently to you every woman in comics should be flat-chested,
> > fat, or just average looking, even the one's who are supposed to be
> > temptresses.
>
> No, not at all. But it's so much more convenient to argue against a strawman
> than a live woman, isn't it?
>
No more convenient than cutting out what the response was made to. I
said that if any character should be overtly sexy, it should be
Catwoman. You responded with - We must have different views of the
character. Well, if you disagree with my point that Catwoman is the
ultimate in sexy "superheroes/villians", and you don't think she
should be portrayed as "hot", then I can't imagine you want to see any
other heroines made to look that way, since, if Catwoman is not to be
portrayed that way (which is a big part of her character), why would
you think that Dr. Light should look like that? It's not that big a
leap. The main problem anyone seems to have with the "old" Catwoman
is that her boobs were too big. It doesn't matter that for the
character's overt sexuality, that would be a logical characteristic
(as it might not be for someone else). You just don't like it.
-Chris C.
M-Wolverine
How the heck is Frank Miller to blame for this? Maybe you meant the
whole prostitute thing (which I don't particularly like either), but
that's not what we're discussing. By the end of Year One, Miller had
her in a very Cat-like costume.
And as for the previous book, say I agree with you - that makes it's
ok for this book to suck too.....?
-Chris C.
M-Wolverine
> ch...@pnc-wbi.com (M-Wolverine) wrote in message news:<86ac6ac0.0112...@posting.google.com>...
> > mega...@aol.com (MegaGear X) wrote in message news:<20011203204829...@mb-fy.aol.com>...
> >
> > > Sorry, but I like my Catwoman in a cat costume complete with long hair,
> > > boobs and tail. Otherwise she is Black Widow for DC.
> >
> > Again, why call a book Catwoman if you don't want to write stories
> > about Catwoman? Create your own average thief, and if you think the
> > stories are so good, it'll sell anyway. But they know it won't, so
> > they piggy-back on the character's name value. Why is she even
> > CAT-woman, instead of spandex woman?
>
> To be fair, for many years when she wore the "purple dress costume",
> Catwoman's costume did not have a tail (but it did have a mask that
> suggested a cat's head). So she has been without a tail for large
> parts of her carreer.
Well, to be honest, I wasn't really all that put off by tail or no
tail.....
> Also, the huge breasts have never been a consistant part of the character's
> design (unlike, say, Power Girl). Even when Jim Ballent (the artist who first
> gave Catwoman enormous hooters) had been drawing Catwoman for several years
> and you would think the bodacious ta-tas were part of the standard character
> design, other artists did not draw Selina as large -- which means that
> they were just Ballent's artist choice, I guess . . .
>
> ShadZ
I think 'Gear X illustrated it, but Catwoman has always been portrayed
as looking like the most attractive women of her era.....if "bodacious
ta-tas" (love that phrase) are in right now, she should have them.
Who knows? There may even come an era again where she'll have to be
really fat too. But I won't hold my breath.... :)
-Chris C.
Loren Di Iorio
: Her without a trademark cat costume is like Harley
: Quinn or Poison Ivy in plain clothes--unrecognizable.
Put Pam in plainclothes and a big crowd, and I'll
pick her out for you, no prob. :) Those eyes,
that red hair... I mean, uh, the pheromones!
Dang Ivy... always screwing with my head. ;)
...Loren
Fear http://www.geocities.com/gcpdguy/
Loren Di Iorio
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MegaGear X wrote:
: She could go out in broad daylight, and aside from
: hot looking woman, no one would bat an eye.
Isn't that great for her? I sure think so - it means
that (aside from Batman), no one would be able
to recognize her, like the cops or whoever. She
could get to her prey as anonymously as any
other burglar.
...Loren
Fear http://www.geocities.com/gcpdguy/
Shawn Hill
: You're right. She's always been a super-villian, if perhaps one who
: walked the line closely. Where this idea comes from that someone who
: dresses up as a purple cat, robs people with only a whip, and talks
And in blue and red, and in a leather catsuit, and in a green dress with
slits, and on and on. She's had almost as many costume changes as Janet
Van Dyne.
: with cats is some bastion of realism in the sea of superheroics, is a
: mystery to me. Next, we'll need the Joker to more realistically
: represent clowns.....
It comes from Batman: Year One.
: Well, I'd say you are. You're superimposing characteristics that
: aren't a part of the character, only because she is a visible female
: character. Doesn't matter that it's inconsistent for her. She's out
: there, and she's female, so let's do whatever we want wit her.
Selina has been everything from insane to heroic, playful to angry,
unreliable to loyal, etc. If she's in an introspective phrase....well,
it's about time.
: is threatening because she a representation of independence, strength,
: and sexuality. She doesn't need anyone else, male or female, and
: isn't afraid to show it. Her strength is what makes her interesting,
Has she stopped showing that? By having friends, and doing what she
wants, regardless of what the Bat thinks?
: not her weaknesses. It's one thing to question yourself, and another
: to doubt yourself. I don't mind seeing Batman wonder if he did the
: right thing in the way he acted, but I don't want to see a bunch of
: issues where he doubts his capabilities, and wonders if his mission is
: the right course of action. His confidence is a plus with him too.
: That's why the two characters play off against each other so well.
Because they're both obsessed and a little crazy? Sure.
: leap. The main problem anyone seems to have with the "old" Catwoman
: is that her boobs were too big. It doesn't matter that for the
That's a symbol of what was really wrong: all boobs, no brains. Selina's
vigilante position is a difficult one to maintain compellingly; is she a
troublemaker like Harley, a villain like Ivy, a hero like Black Canary,
or someone who plays by none of the above rules?
: character's overt sexuality, that would be a logical characteristic
: (as it might not be for someone else). You just don't like it.
I don't like when her sexuality is exploited over and above her other
abilities/strengths/motivations. I do like it when she puzzles a bit over
what her motivations are.
Shawn
Shawn Hill
: How the heck is Frank Miller to blame for this? Maybe you meant the
: whole prostitute thing (which I don't particularly like either), but
: that's not what we're discussing. By the end of Year One, Miller had
: her in a very Cat-like costume.
No, I meant Selina alone, in her apt., with a few female friends and a
mission where she looks like a sexual predator/femme fatale, but is
really a hero protecting the weak.
: And as for the previous book, say I agree with you - that makes it's
: ok for this book to suck too.....?
No, the point is, this one isn't...it's better.
Shawn
M-Wolverine
> MegaGear X wrote:
> : Her without a trademark cat costume is like Harley
> : Quinn or Poison Ivy in plain clothes--unrecognizable.
>
> Put Pam in plainclothes and a big crowd, and I'll
> pick her out for you, no prob. :) Those eyes,
> that red hair... I mean, uh, the pheromones!
The Green Skin!
-Chris C.
M-Wolverine
> MegaGear X at mega...@aol.com wrote:
>
> >>Catwoman's never been a superhero in the standard sense of the word.
> >
> > Catwoman is in a super hero universe. She's a supervillian turned anti-hero.
>
> That's what I said -- she's not a superhero. Being someone with abilities in
> a superhero setting doesn't automatically make you a superhero.
But being a super-villian doesn't remove you from the superheroic
motif. John Constaintine(sp?) may be in a world of powers, but not
superheroes. If he were to put on a spandex costume and run around
socking villians and jumping off building, his fans would go nuts....
> > Her without a trademark cat costume is like Harley Quinn or Poison Ivy in
> > plain clothes--unrecognizable.
>
> It's clear to me that you are most interested in what I would consider
> surface elements of the book -- her costume, her boobs, her being seen as
> attractive. I'm interested in different things. You had years of the book
> being targeted at you; now it's targeted more at someone like me. That may
> seem unfair, but it's a common trend in comics to take a new approach for a
> fresh start.
Well, you seem as interested in the size of her boobs as anyone- you
just want them smaller, so your opinion is somehow more valid. (It
seems to be a trend, if the Bloodstone thread is any example). Again
you dodge the point that if the material is so different, and the work
is so worthwhile, why not invent your own thief, non-superhero world
villian/anti-hero, give it a title, and let it ride on its own merits?
Because we all know it wouldn't sell.
> I'm sorry you don't think you can enjoy the new title -- shall I recommend
> other books you might like more? I hear Vampirella isn't bad, especially
> when using writers like Mark Millar. And John Ostrander is going to be doing
> a Lady Death issue in February. Maybe you'll like those instead?
>
Well, condescending tone aside, he really shouldn't have to buy a book
called "Catwoman", and not find Catwoman in it. It's funny, you cast
a bad light on all these "sexy heroes", but because you gave Catwoman
a good review, you completely ignore the gratuitious ass-shot issue
one had. Far worse than anything the old series had.....but because
it was drawn somewhere between cartoony and noir, it's not just a
"surface element".....please.
-Chris C.
MegaGear X
surface elements of the book -- her costume, her boobs, her being seen as
attractive. I'm interested in different things. You had years of the book being
targeted at you; now it's targeted more at someone like me. That may
seem unfair, but it's a common trend in comics to take a new approach for a
fresh start. >>
Actually, I've NEVER brought Catwoman. I do buy other DC books that have had
her in it and I do have a few Batman TPB with her in them. I know what she
should look like verses what she looks like now. I first saw her new look in a
preview book. I was like "Ugh. Decostuming strikes again". I hated it with the
X-Men and I hate it here. My gripe was that she was unrecognizable. But I'm not
a regular reader. That's why I haven't commented on the writing.
<< I'm sorry you don't think you can enjoy the new title -- shall I recommend
other books you might like more? I hear Vampirella isn't bad, especially when
using writers like Mark Millar. And John Ostrander is going to be doing
a Lady Death issue in February. Maybe you'll like those instead? >>
No thanks, Jo. Surprisingly, Vampirella and Lady Death don't interest me at
all, despite my attitude toward T&A. I have no problem with their figures and
outfits, but so far that hasn't gotten me to collect those books. Something
about those two don't interest me...
MegaGear X
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MegaGear X wrote:
: She could go out in broad daylight, and aside from
: hot looking woman, no one would bat an eye.
Isn't that great for her? I sure think so - it means
that (aside from Batman), no one would be able
to recognize her, like the cops or whoever. She
could get to her prey as anonymously as any
other burglar.
That's exactly my point. Now she is just another burglar.
Her dressing like a cat was part of the character's appeal. Take that away and
she might as well be the girl down the street with a leather outfit and a mad
on for rooftop acrobatics. CATwoman, not CATburglar.
Johanna Draper Carlson
> You're superimposing characteristics that aren't a part of the character
Let's see... so far I've said that her costume and body type as drawn now
are better suited for a cat burglar, which has been part of the character
definition since the beginning.
And I've said that her being confused and searching for her true self is a
great thing for the character and stories, and that fits right in with her
history.
What other characteristics am I imposing that aren't part of the character?
> Catwoman is the other side of the spectrum of the identity-less, meek,
> self-searching woman with no confidence in herself.
You're making a whole lot of assumptions here that aren't backed up by the
work. For one thing, searching for your true self doesn't have anything to
do with meekness -- and in the comic, we're shown that, as she stands up to
Batman, which is the opposite of being meek. Same thing goes for
"identity-less."
> Her whole design,
> and in turn threat to Batman (and the male readership...?) is that she
> is threatening because she a representation of independence, strength,
> and sexuality.
She's going out on her own (that was what the issue was *about*), and she's
wearing a costume that's considered by many as sexy. Yep, still in tune with
the character.
It's a classic writing strategy -- you show the character's strength by
having her contemplate the contrast.
Forgive me, I'm losing track of who's made which points, but did you read
this issue? It sounds to me like you're making assumptions based on your
connotations of what other people have said about the issue.
> No more convenient than cutting out what the response was made to.
Oh, please -- complaining about bad quoting is the last refuge of someone
who can't respond to the points made.
> Well, if you disagree with my point that Catwoman is the
> ultimate in sexy "superheroes/villians", and you don't think she
> should be portrayed as "hot", then I can't imagine you want to see any
> other heroines made to look that way
This is a huge, unjustified leap in logic.
For one thing -- I have no problem with Catwoman being sexy. I think she is
sexy. I also think sexy has a lot more to do with attitude, and physically
impossible fetish breasts are far from sexy for many people.
There are other characters who are more consistent when portrayed as sexy
above all else, because it's a more integral part of their character, like
Maxima or Looker or Poison Ivy. So I have no problem with other heroines
looking sexy either.
> The main problem anyone seems to have with the "old" Catwoman
> is that her boobs were too big. It doesn't matter that for the
> character's overt sexuality, that would be a logical characteristic
> (as it might not be for someone else). You just don't like it.
Boobs *that* big aren't logical for anyone but a stripper who performs for
guys turned on by freaks. It's a matter of context and scale, not a simple
either/or.
Johanna Draper Carlson
> being a super-villian doesn't remove you from the superheroic
> motif.
Depends on what type of supervillain you are. Lex Luthor, for example,
currently is just a high-powered businessman and politician. If he put the
purple-and-green jet pack suit back on, it would be ridiculously out of
place.
Selina's not a supervillain anymore, and she hasn't been for years.
> Well, you seem as interested in the size of her boobs as anyone
Because I'm making fun of people whose vision of the character doesn't
extend beyond her chest? I think you've misread me.
> you just want them smaller, so your opinion is somehow more valid.
Did you read the Tart interview with Ed Brubaker? My opinion's also more in
tune with the current creator. Lucky for me, not so lucky for you, which is
why I was suggesting alternate books disappointed readers might be more
interested in.
This is what happens in a superhero universe. Creators change, takes on
characters change, books change. If you're not enjoying it, read something
else. Keep whining about it, and you wind up old, bitter, and a member of
HEAT.
> you dodge the point that if the material is so different, and the work
> is so worthwhile, why not invent your own thief, non-superhero world
> villian/anti-hero, give it a title, and let it ride on its own merits?
Because what Mr. Brubaker is exploring is the character of Catwoman. This
take on things is different from the boob phase, yes, and the work is great.
But if he'd been telling this story with another character, you'd be
complaining "it's just a Catwoman ripoff", so he can't win, can he?
> Well, condescending tone aside,
I'm sorry you misinterpreted my attempt to help as condescension. It wasn't.
> he really shouldn't have to buy a book
> called "Catwoman", and not find Catwoman in it.
This is Catwoman -- this is where differing opinions about what constitutes
the core character come in.
> because you gave Catwoman a good review, you completely ignore the
> gratuitious ass-shot issue one had.
I didn't find it gratuitous, or worth mentioning in an overview of the
entire issue.
One could as easily say that because you hate the book, you're pulling
elements out of context just to have something to attack the book and its
fans with.
M-Wolverine
> M-Wolverine <ch...@pnc-wbi.com> wrote:
>
> : How the heck is Frank Miller to blame for this? Maybe you meant the
> : whole prostitute thing (which I don't particularly like either), but
> : that's not what we're discussing. By the end of Year One, Miller had
> : her in a very Cat-like costume.
>
> No, I meant Selina alone, in her apt., with a few female friends and a
> mission where she looks like a sexual predator/femme fatale, but is
> really a hero protecting the weak.
But his comments were about the decostuming of a superhero, not her
living situation....
-Chris C.
M-Wolverine
Shawn Hill <sh...@fas.harvard.edu> wrote in message news:<9uoc3c$j45$1...@news.fas.harvard.edu>...
> M-Wolverine <ch...@pnc-wbi.com> wrote:
>
> : You're right. She's always been a super-villian, if perhaps one who
> : walked the line closely. Where this idea comes from that someone who
> : dresses up as a purple cat, robs people with only a whip, and talks
>
> And in blue and red, and in a leather catsuit, and in a green dress with
> slits, and on and on. She's had almost as many costume changes as Janet
> Van Dyne.
Alright, but they were just that- costumes. She, in all of them, has
been a character is the Super hero genre. Never "just" a cat burglar.
> : with cats is some bastion of realism in the sea of superheroics, is a
> : mystery to me. Next, we'll need the Joker to more realistically
> : represent clowns.....
>
> It comes from Batman: Year One.
To start with perhaps, but certainly Miller used a lot of costumed
super-heroics in that and other works. See, I hate to speak for the
man, but I've never seen his work as necessarily realism. I think
people impose "gritty and dark" into "realism" (as if real life is
never "light and fun"). Maybe that's a step away from what comics
used to be, but in Miller's case, I don't see realism as his driving
force. You look at his "dark" Dark Knight work, and he sees and
treats these characters as part of a pantheon of gods (which probably
inspired Morrison's JLA take), above humanity. "It's too Big. He's
too Big". It's more myth than realism he's going for.
Completely off the topic, I've found that people's tastes on realism
vs. myth can often be shown in their tastes towards the 4 big works of
the modern era- Watchmen, Dark Knight, Marvels, and Kingdom Come.
Those who like realism in a Superhero world like Watchmen and Marvels.
Those who like to see their heroes portrayed as mythical and
something to aspire to like Dark Knight and Kingdom Come. But that's
neither here nor there, and it's not a hard and fast rule.
> : Well, I'd say you are. You're superimposing characteristics that
> : aren't a part of the character, only because she is a visible female
> : character. Doesn't matter that it's inconsistent for her. She's out
> : there, and she's female, so let's do whatever we want wit her.
>
> Selina has been everything from insane to heroic, playful to angry,
> unreliable to loyal, etc. If she's in an introspective phrase....well,
> it's about time.
But in all those phases, she's never been weak, she's always been
strong. If it's a phase, sure, I can handle it. It's just that the
end of the series (which even if you didn't like the series, you
probably still think the end REALLY crashed and burned) had all sorts
of this self-second guessing. This will probably be handled better,
but enough's enough. I like the strong Selina, who doesn't take no
crap from anyone, not this self-doubting woman. Tie this into the
fact that they made all sorts of surface changes for the "realism"
reason (or whatever), and it doesn't really resemble the character
anymore (did they need to change costumes and such to make her more
introspective? If it's all inside, you can doubt yourself in
purple..... :)
> : is threatening because she a representation of independence, strength,
> : and sexuality. She doesn't need anyone else, male or female, and
> : isn't afraid to show it. Her strength is what makes her interesting,
>
> Has she stopped showing that? By having friends, and doing what she
> wants, regardless of what the Bat thinks?
Having friends and such is no problem. But I think she has stopped
showing that some. She was a touch feisty with Batman, but she didn't
come off as that defiant to me. Like she was going through the
motions....
> : leap. The main problem anyone seems to have with the "old" Catwoman
> : is that her boobs were too big. It doesn't matter that for the
>
> That's a symbol of what was really wrong: all boobs, no brains. Selina's
> vigilante position is a difficult one to maintain compellingly; is she a
> troublemaker like Harley, a villain like Ivy, a hero like Black Canary,
> or someone who plays by none of the above rules?
I think you right on the last one. She is kind of everywoman. And
that is part of the chaos she represents, as all Batman villians do,
to contrast his desire for order. I just don't think that having big
boobs automatic assumes no brains. In fact, it's an assumption Selina
should use in her favor.
> : character's overt sexuality, that would be a logical characteristic
> : (as it might not be for someone else). You just don't like it.
>
> I don't like when her sexuality is exploited over and above her other
> abilities/strengths/motivations. I do like it when she puzzles a bit over
> what her motivations are.
>
Well, again, we're walking a fine line here. I said somewhere in this
thread there's a differences between questioning your actions, and
doubting them. It's a fine line, to be sure, but it's the difference
between realizing you made a mistake, and doubting who you are and
what you do. The former makes the character human; the latter often
makes them weak, on the printed page.
And I think, for this character, her sexuality might be her overriding
characteristic. It's just takes really good writing to make this work
FOR her, rather than being used to exploit her. Again, a fine line.
But the discussion is becoming reasonable, and each side is making
good points, so we're narrowing it down a bit. (Rather, than as I was
thinking last night, us "yelling" at each other over a fictional
character's boob size- although I'm sure there have been more trivial
things that matter to comic fans).
-Chris C.
Johanna Draper Carlson
> I've NEVER brought Catwoman.
So you're arguing with me about a book you haven't read? I don't think you
can separate the costume change from the reasons behind it, which you'd have
to read the book to get.
> I know what she should look like verses what she looks like now.
Which time? Balent or the decades before Balent changed her?
> Something about those two don't interest me...
What interests you about Catwoman, beyond what she looks like?
Shawn Hill
: OK, now I think we're getting somewhere....
:> It comes from Batman: Year One.
: To start with perhaps, but certainly Miller used a lot of costumed
: super-heroics in that and other works. See, I hate to speak for the
: man, but I've never seen his work as necessarily realism. I think
: people impose "gritty and dark" into "realism" (as if real life is
: never "light and fun"). Maybe that's a step away from what comics
But, then, the new Catwoman art is hardly "realistic," either (as the
Mazuchelli/Miller Year One tried to be).
: Completely off the topic, I've found that people's tastes on realism
: vs. myth can often be shown in their tastes towards the 4 big works of
: the modern era- Watchmen, Dark Knight, Marvels, and Kingdom Come.
: Those who like realism in a Superhero world like Watchmen and Marvels.
Except that Watchmen is very very stylized, with lots of non-realistic
stylistic choices (anybody read the parody by Ellis, et al, in the Jenny
Sparks spotlight issue of Stormwatch? Since her life spanned the 20th
century exactly, her autobiography is told in the style of each era, from
20s fantasy to 30s pulp to 40s film noir on down to 80s uber-clever
psychological complexity a la Watchmen).
: Those who like to see their heroes portrayed as mythical and
: something to aspire to like Dark Knight and Kingdom Come. But that's
: neither here nor there, and it's not a hard and fast rule.
IE, the one with the most media-saturated, urban/Robocop emphasis, and
the one with the most Photorealistic art?
If I want mythical, I pick up Sandman by Kelley Jones or Marc Hempel. And
if I want realism....I guess Chris Weston is the current choice.
:> Selina has been everything from insane to heroic, playful to angry,
:> unreliable to loyal, etc. If she's in an introspective phrase....well,
:> it's about time.
: But in all those phases, she's never been weak, she's always been
: strong. If it's a phase, sure, I can handle it. It's just that the
: end of the series (which even if you didn't like the series, you
: probably still think the end REALLY crashed and burned) had all sorts
: of this self-second guessing. This will probably be handled better,
I don't think the woman making choices in Catwoman #1 seemed weak.
: but enough's enough. I like the strong Selina, who doesn't take no
: crap from anyone, not this self-doubting woman. Tie this into the
: fact that they made all sorts of surface changes for the "realism"
: reason (or whatever), and it doesn't really resemble the character
: anymore (did they need to change costumes and such to make her more
: introspective? If it's all inside, you can doubt yourself in
: purple..... :)
But can you reaffirm yourself with big bouncing purple blimps bobbing
right under your nose?
:> : and sexuality. She doesn't need anyone else, male or female, and
:> : isn't afraid to show it. Her strength is what makes her interesting,
:>
:> Has she stopped showing that? By having friends, and doing what she
:> wants, regardless of what the Bat thinks?
: Having friends and such is no problem. But I think she has stopped
: showing that some. She was a touch feisty with Batman, but she didn't
: come off as that defiant to me. Like she was going through the
: motions....
I'm sure she'll come up with many things to defy as the series
progresses.
: FOR her, rather than being used to exploit her. Again, a fine line.
: But the discussion is becoming reasonable, and each side is making
: good points, so we're narrowing it down a bit. (Rather, than as I was
: thinking last night, us "yelling" at each other over a fictional
: character's boob size- although I'm sure there have been more trivial
: things that matter to comic fans).
I agree that if Selina wants to use her sexuality in pursuit of her aims,
that should be her option...but this one issue didn't really give her
that opportunity, plot-wise (shouldn't she and the Bat be beyond
manipulative flirtation at this point?), and I get really annoyed by the
vampy/vixen/boob-centered stuff like Harley's very physical interactions
with people, or Ivy's skin-tight poisinous surface. Selina's smarter than
that, and also more heroic.
This is the first version of the Cat I've been interested in reading in a
long time.
Shawn
Shawn Hill
: Shawn Hill <sh...@fas.harvard.edu> wrote in message news:<9uoc6a$j45$2...@news.fas.harvard.edu>...
She hasn't been decostumed. She's not walking around in a baggy suit like
Alias or Jenny Sparks.
Shawn
Shawn Hill
:> No more convenient than cutting out what the response was made to.
: Oh, please -- complaining about bad quoting is the last refuge of someone
: who can't respond to the points made.
And sometimes the first! Good point.
: There are other characters who are more consistent when portrayed as sexy
: above all else, because it's a more integral part of their character, like
: Maxima or Looker or Poison Ivy. So I have no problem with other heroines
: looking sexy either.
Or Power Girl, when done right! I saw an add for a Kara doll recently,
70s version....and I want it!!!
shawn
Dave Doty
> I've found that people's tastes on realism
> vs. myth can often be shown in their tastes towards the 4 big works of
> the modern era- Watchmen, Dark Knight, Marvels, and Kingdom Come.
One of the reasons I hated Kingdom Come when it first came out was the
disappointment after people placing it in a league with DK and Watchmen,
where it fell pathetically short. When I later read comments by Waid that
he had never intended it to be comparable in stature to those works and
that he himself felt the book's fans were exaggerating, I reread it and
liked it immensely.
And I would say Astro City is a much bigger and more thoughtful work that
Marvels and, aside from Marvel aping the style for a while and using Ben
Urich in books, AC will, I am certain, be much more influential.
Dave Doty
Loren Di Iorio
: That's exactly my point. Now she is just another burglar.
: Her dressing like a cat was part of the character's appeal.
: Take that away and she might as well be the girl down
: the street with a leather outfit and a mad on for rooftop
: acrobatics.
Or, just more real. I find this character much more
appealing, both appearance-wise, and from what
we've seen of her thoughts.
Balent's depiction of her was over-the-top and
unnecessary. Having immense breasts in no way
made her any closer to what a cat looks like, anyway.
Balent moved to drawing Tarot, which not surprisingly
sports a sword-brandishing heroine romping around
in the nude with even larger breasts than CW had.
How that project got out the door, I have no clue.
The way CW was drawn by Balent was practically
a joke, akin to that of Red Monika from Battle Chasers.
...Loren
Fear http://www.geocities.com/gcpdguy/
Paul O'Brien
Iorio <yu21...@yorku.ca> writes
>
>Balent moved to drawing Tarot, which not surprisingly
>sports a sword-brandishing heroine romping around
>in the nude with even larger breasts than CW had.
>How that project got out the door, I have no clue.
Wasn't it self-published?
Paul O'Brien
THE X-AXIS REVIEWS - http://www.esoterica.demon.co.uk
ARTICLE 10 - http://www.ninthart.com
Brevity is the sister of talent.
MegaGear X
series. Sorry, I guess I should have been more specific. I don't have the
Balent series.
<<
Which time? Balent or the decades before Balent changed her? >>
How'd Balent change her?! In Post Crisis, she looked like a cat until now.
Whenever I saw Cats she had a cat costume on. Comics and in TPBs. I was just
reading The Long Halloween (Tim Sale) when I saw her with the leathers. I
didn't like it because she looked normal.
<< > Something about those two don't interest me...
What interests you about Catwoman, beyond what she looks like? >>
Basically, nothing. I don't collect the book. I have only noticed something was
wrong when I saw her new outfit. I brought the first issue to see why she
changed over. To find herself? To find Selina Kyle? Cool. Just don't wear
anything remotely looking like Catwoman any longer. When I saw the mask, I
flipped.
My problem is it doesn't look like a cat, past the leather mask. My beef is
this anti-spandex mentality in a sooperhero universe. When are we gonna see the
Scarecrow in a black leather outfit? Or Poison Ivy? Or Mad Hatter?
MegaGear X
appealing, both appearance-wise, and from what
we've seen of her thoughts. >>
I'd guess. You want real from a Batman villian... What next? Does the Scarecrow
gotta lose the straw hat to be cool to you?
Me, I haven't forgotten that it's a sooperhero universe. Spandex. Secret
Identities. Super Powers. Laser guns. Bow and arrows against giant robots.
Ninjas. Aliens. Muscular Men. Voluptious Women. Screw real. If you want real,
read the newspaper, not a SUPERHERO comic book.
<< Balent's depiction of her was over-the-top and
unnecessary. Having immense breasts in no way
made her any closer to what a cat looks like, anyway. >>
Hey, if the character historically had big boobs, then it's all good. If not,
then correct the problem. But I'm not really caring about the boobs, it's the
costume. At least Balent and Sale made her look like a cat. This book, it's
like taking away a Batman-character's gimmick. It doesn't work. Imagine The Mad
Hatter or the Rhino or The Green Goblin in biker duds, doing their usual thing.
That's what this is like.
<< Balent moved to drawing Tarot, which not surprisingly
sports a sword-brandishing heroine romping around
in the nude with even larger breasts than CW had.
How that project got out the door, I have no clue. >>
The same way this dumbed down, black leather clad, matrix-like version of CW is
running around.
MegaGear X
gratuitious ass-shot issue one had.
I didn't find it gratuitous, or worth mentioning in an overview of the entire
issue. >>
You surprise me again, Jo. You watch WWF, despite it's blatant T&A and buff
half naked men and now you didn't have any problems with Cats bare butt.
It's pleasant and rewarding to see how three dimensional and multi-faceted
folks turn out to be.:-)
This scene is kinda unnecessary, but why does Cats wear no panties?
Restrictions?
MegaGear X
Alias or Jenny Sparks. >>
When you can walk down the street unnoticed and in normal looking clothing, you
are decostumed. Cats has the leather mask, but that's it. Who would you notice
outright? Current CW or Balent CW?
NowThe Rhino walking down the street in a rhino costume is impossible to miss.
I think if she wants to find herself, she should lose it. Her keeping the mask
confuses me. It's like "I wanna be a normal anti-hero, but somehow I still
gotta wear...this!" and she pulls on a cat-earred mask.
Johanna Draper Carlson
> How'd Balent change her?!
When Catwoman first appeared, she wore a long purple dress with a slit up
one leg. Then there was the full-head cat mask. And a really nasty black and
light blue with red mask outfit in the late 60s. (There's this one story
where she and Wonder Woman, during her unpowered white outfit phase, wind up
on cables fighting each other over a pit of lava from that era. Goofy
stuff.) Then there's the Miller butch look.
The point being, the character has been through a *lot* of costumes. If
you're too young to remember anything but Balent, I'm sure you can find some
of her other stories in GREATEST BATMAN STORIES EVER TOLD V2 (which includes
my all-time favorite Catwoman story) or the BATMAN IN THE 60s and 70s
volumes.
> In Post Crisis, she looked like a cat until now.
Ah, but this is post-Zero Hour now. And post-Hypertime, come to think of it.
It's all true. :)
>> What interests you about Catwoman, beyond what she looks like?
>
> Basically, nothing. I don't collect the book. I have only noticed something
> was wrong when I saw her new outfit.
Ah. This explains a lot about why we're disagreeing.
>You want real from a Batman villian... What next?
Maybe the Penguin changing from Burgess Meredith going wak wak wak to an
underground deal-maker. Oh, wait, they've done that one. Or Poison Ivy going
from leaf-clad temptress to environmentalist... hmm, that's been done too.
Reinventing characters for a new era to make them more relevant is nothing
new.
> Me, I haven't forgotten that it's a sooperhero universe.
You must be hating the current Batman writers, with their concentrations on
motivation and more detective work. Although if you want to start a petition
to bring back the Rainbow-Colored Bat-Suits and Batman visiting alien
planets every other week, I'm there.
> You watch WWF, despite it's blatant T&A and buff half naked men
I'm familiar with it, yes. I find it interesting to analyze the plotlines as
representative of mass American concerns. And the latent homoeroticism can
be amusing.
> This scene is kinda unnecessary, but why does Cats wear no panties?
> Restrictions?
Spoken like someone who's never worried about panty lines in skin-tight
spandex or leather. :)
Loren Di Iorio
: Loren wrote:
:
: You want real from a Batman villian... What next?
: Does the Scarecrow gotta lose the straw hat to be
: cool to you? Me, I haven't forgotten that it's a
: sooperhero universe.
Um...not the Bat-realm. If anything, his villains are
less super-powered than the others.
The Scarecrow doesn't need the costume to strike
fear into everyone - he's got the gas for it. The costume
just makes him feel good. ;)
: Spandex. Secret Identities. Super Powers. Laser guns.
: Bow and arrows against giant robots. Ninjas. Aliens.
: Muscular Men. Voluptuous Women. Screw real. If you
: want real, read the newspaper, not a SUPERHERO
: comic book.
Nearly half the things you mentioned don't even apply
to the Bat-books, and I'll remain with my view that
he's a hero, not a superhero, insofar as one takes
the definition of "superhero" to be "a hero with
super powers".
: This book, it's like taking away a Batman-character's
: gimmick.
And that's a bad thing? In the comic world especially,
one would think that getting rid of the gimmicks is
a step forward.
: > Balent moved to drawing Tarot, which not surprisingly
: > sports a sword-brandishing heroine romping around
: > in the nude with even larger breasts than CW had.
: > How that project got out the door, I have no clue.
:
: The same way this dumbed down, black leather clad,
: matrix-like version of CW is running around.
Hardly. This version of CW isn't emphatically T&A
like Tarot was.
And Selina's not Matrix-like, it's Emma Peel (as
Bru's wife, whose idea about Mrs. Peel inspired
the look), because Mrs. Peel was just as enticing,
without a bouncing chest.
If there's one thing about CW this time around,
it's that she's not dumbed down.
...Loren
Fear http://www.geocities.com/gcpdguy/
Loren Di Iorio
: When you can walk down the street unnoticed and in
: normal looking clothing, you are decostumed. Cats
: has the leather mask, but that's it. Who would you
: notice outright? Current CW or Balent CW?
Again, and most importantly here: why in the name
of the Great Kite would Selina *want* to draw
attention to herself?
She's one of the world's greatest thieves, and like
she said, she's beyond that look from before. It's
too eye-catching, and the last thing a thief needs
is something that smacks of loudspeaker-type
clothing.
...Loren
Fear http://www.geocities.com/gcpdguy/
Shawn Hill
: << She hasn't been decostumed. She's not walking around in a baggy suit like
: Alias or Jenny Sparks. >>
: When you can walk down the street unnoticed and in normal looking clothing, you
: are decostumed. Cats has the leather mask, but that's it. Who would you notice
: outright? Current CW or Balent CW?
I think I'd notice the stylish chick skipping along the rooftops,
whatever she was wearing.
: NowThe Rhino walking down the street in a rhino costume is impossible to miss.
: I think if she wants to find herself, she should lose it. Her keeping the mask
: confuses me. It's like "I wanna be a normal anti-hero, but somehow I still
: gotta wear...this!" and she pulls on a cat-earred mask.
Because she still wants to protect her civilian identity?
Shawn
Shawn Hill
: Basically, nothing. I don't collect the book. I have only noticed something was
: wrong when I saw her new outfit. I brought the first issue to see why she
: changed over. To find herself? To find Selina Kyle? Cool. Just don't wear
: anything remotely looking like Catwoman any longer. When I saw the mask, I
: flipped.
So, wear a costume, but a suitably gaudy one, not one that looks remotely
practical, that's still a costume, but in a different style? It's hard to
make sense of your competing desires.
: My problem is it doesn't look like a cat, past the leather mask. My beef is
: this anti-spandex mentality in a sooperhero universe. When are we gonna see the
: Scarecrow in a black leather outfit? Or Poison Ivy? Or Mad Hatter?
Well, we've seen The Key in bondage/fetish gear, as we did some of the
heroes/villains from as far back as Watchmen. Or we could look at the
barely there "costumes" that Grell and Cockrum designed for most of the
Legion women (and some of the men). The Legion wore corporate issue
battlesuits at different times, as did the Orignal X-men.
I'm just not seeing such a big disparity between spandex and leather. Is
Diana Rigg's Emma Peel a superhero, or just a very active girl? Is Buffy
less of a heroine because she wears normal (affordably stylish) clothes?
Styles change over time, by definition.
Shawn
Dave Doty
> At least Balent and Sale made her look like a cat. This book, it's
> like taking away a Batman-character's gimmick
Is that what all this is about? Look at the inside of the comic, where
she's wearing her mask-- it has little kitty ears on it. Now everyone is
happy. Those who want a well-developed character can have one, and those
who want someone with little kitty ears on her costume can have that, too.
Od course, since you've never read the book and don't seem to have any
intention to, you're probably not DC's target audience.
Dave Doty
M-Wolverine
> MegaGear X <mega...@aol.com> wrote:
> : << She hasn't been decostumed. She's not walking around in a baggy suit like
> : Alias or Jenny Sparks. >>
>
> : When you can walk down the street unnoticed and in normal looking clothing, you
> : are decostumed. Cats has the leather mask, but that's it. Who would you notice
> : outright? Current CW or Balent CW?
>
> I think I'd notice the stylish chick skipping along the rooftops,
> whatever she was wearing.
>
So wait, she's changing costumes to be less noticable, but because of
her activity it still stands out? Are you trying to show it was a
pointless change?
-Chris C.
M-Wolverine
Why the heck would someone fighting crime want to put on a costume
and a cape, rather than just pull on a ski mask and kick some
ass.....?
-Chris C.
M-Wolverine
Well, I'm not getting into an argument about quality, just influence.
I don't see AC being a historically big influence, because the
characters will not continue to have the impact of the DC/Marvel
characters.
-Chris C.
M-Wolverine
> M-Wolverine at ch...@pnc-wbi.com wrote:
>
> > You're superimposing characteristics that aren't a part of the character
>
> Let's see... so far I've said that her costume and body type as drawn now
> are better suited for a cat burglar, which has been part of the character
> definition since the beginning.
Her early costume was not at all suited for a burglar. When is a long
dress good for a thief. Where are you getting this?
> And I've said that her being confused and searching for her true self is a
> great thing for the character and stories, and that fits right in with her
> history.
Don't think it fits into her history at all. Where are all these
great introspective periods in her career?
> What other characteristics am I imposing that aren't part of the character?
>
> > Catwoman is the other side of the spectrum of the identity-less, meek,
> > self-searching woman with no confidence in herself.
>
> You're making a whole lot of assumptions here that aren't backed up by the
> work. For one thing, searching for your true self doesn't have anything to
> do with meekness -- and in the comic, we're shown that, as she stands up to
> Batman, which is the opposite of being meek. Same thing goes for
> "identity-less."
How can searching for your true self not be a search for your
identity? And yes, in what is supposed to be a strong, self-confident
character, doubt in oneself IS weakness.
> > Her whole design,
> > and in turn threat to Batman (and the male readership...?) is that she
> > is threatening because she a representation of independence, strength,
> > and sexuality.
>
> She's going out on her own (that was what the issue was *about*), and she's
> wearing a costume that's considered by many as sexy. Yep, still in tune with
> the character.
Being alone doesn't mean you're independant.
> It's a classic writing strategy -- you show the character's strength by
> having her contemplate the contrast.
>
> Forgive me, I'm losing track of who's made which points, but did you read
> this issue? It sounds to me like you're making assumptions based on your
> connotations of what other people have said about the issue.
I read it. I'm beigining to wonder if anyone has read any of her
other stories.
> > No more convenient than cutting out what the response was made to.
>
> Oh, please -- complaining about bad quoting is the last refuge of someone
> who can't respond to the points made.
Talk about last refuge- you've twice used cliche' responses to dodge
answer the question, which must mean you can't. When you decide to
ignore the meat of the argument, it has an effect.
> > Well, if you disagree with my point that Catwoman is the
> > ultimate in sexy "superheroes/villians", and you don't think she
> > should be portrayed as "hot", then I can't imagine you want to see any
> > other heroines made to look that way
>
> This is a huge, unjustified leap in logic.
>
> For one thing -- I have no problem with Catwoman being sexy. I think she is
> sexy. I also think sexy has a lot more to do with attitude, and physically
> impossible fetish breasts are far from sexy for many people.
Well, popular media culture wouldn't agree with you. Maybe I would,
but Catwoman is just an exagerration of the current hot look, which
she always has been, no different than hypersteriod pumped heroes.
> There are other characters who are more consistent when portrayed as sexy
> above all else, because it's a more integral part of their character, like
> Maxima or Looker or Poison Ivy. So I have no problem with other heroines
> looking sexy either.
See, I look as all those others as just knock-offs of the Catwoman
standard.
> > The main problem anyone seems to have with the "old" Catwoman
> > is that her boobs were too big. It doesn't matter that for the
> > character's overt sexuality, that would be a logical characteristic
> > (as it might not be for someone else). You just don't like it.
>
> Boobs *that* big aren't logical for anyone but a stripper who performs for
> guys turned on by freaks. It's a matter of context and scale, not a simple
> either/or.
>
So again it comes down to the size of the boobs are more important
than the content? If you had traded artists on the series, would one
be good and the other bad, or would they both have issues?
Funny, I've never heard anyone complain a characters boobs were too
small.... ;) (is there such a thing is comics?)
-Chris C.
M-Wolverine
> Johanna Draper Carlson <joh...@comicsworthreading.com> wrote:
>
> :> No more convenient than cutting out what the response was made to.
>
> : Oh, please -- complaining about bad quoting is the last refuge of someone
> : who can't respond to the points made.
>
> And sometimes the first! Good point.
>
Only if the question is answered, rather than dodged....you've gone to
Usenet Cliche' 101 too, eh?
-Chris C.
Shawn Hill
: Shawn Hill <sh...@fas.harvard.edu> wrote in message news:<9usbl3$9pr$2...@news.fas.harvard.edu>...
No, I'm saying she's still hot, whatever she wears. I may not see the
theif unless she wanted me too, but I'd certainly remember it when I
finally did.
Shawn
Shawn Hill
:> : And I really don't understand all the boob complaints......if there
:> : was ever one character that should be ridculously hot, it should be
:> : Catwoman. Now when Dr. Light starts tipping over from the, ah,
:> : imbalance, that's another thing.....
:>
:> Hot and ridiculous don't always go together. She looks pretty hot now, I
:> think, in the theif leathers.
:>
: But they can. And my example is this character should be as unreal as
: some steriod pumped hero. I mentioned Dr. Light, not because I didn't
Not if she's trying to be sneaky and clandestine and theiving though, if
you think about it.
: think she was "hot" (liked her more than anyone else did in the JL
: titles), but it would be out of character for HER to be ridiculously
: hot.
Well, it's actually out of character for her to wear such an attention
getting costume at all, but she does it.
Shawn
M-Wolverine
y from what comics
>
> But, then, the new Catwoman art is hardly "realistic," either (as the
> Mazuchelli/Miller Year One tried to be).
Well, that's a whole other issue, whether the art fits the realistic
style of the writing....
>
> : Those who like to see their heroes portrayed as mythical and
> : something to aspire to like Dark Knight and Kingdom Come. But that's
> : neither here nor there, and it's not a hard and fast rule.
>
> IE, the one with the most media-saturated, urban/Robocop emphasis, and
> the one with the most Photorealistic art?
Well, I was talking the writing, not just the pictures. Ironic, isn't
it? You could seperate them by Ross's contributions, or by era's too,
since they are closely related there too.
> If I want mythical, I pick up Sandman by Kelley Jones or Marc Hempel. And
> if I want realism....I guess Chris Weston is the current choice.
Sandman- does that have a lot of "Power of Myth", classical tradition
to it? I wouldn't know.....
>
> I don't think the woman making choices in Catwoman #1 seemed weak.
Well, perhaps we disagree. :) She seemed kind of lost to me.
>
> But can you reaffirm yourself with big bouncing purple blimps bobbing
> right under your nose?
Why can't you? What is this prejudice against women with big chests,
even ridiculously so ones?
>
> I'm sure she'll come up with many things to defy as the series
> progresses.
Well, we only have issue one to judge on. And that's a two-edged
sword. It means I should give it time to work out the story. But it
also means they should establish a tone and foundation for the series
right away- this isn't issue #96. I've had a problem with the trend
to make issue #1's just a small chapter in a bigger story. The story
may continue, but everything should be laid out for new readers.
Stories may have been simpler in yesteryear, but you knew who a
superhero was in their first issue (Ultimate Spiderman taking 6 issues
to tell what was once told in one).
>
> I agree that if Selina wants to use her sexuality in pursuit of her aims,
> that should be her option...but this one issue didn't really give her
> that opportunity, plot-wise (shouldn't she and the Bat be beyond
> manipulative flirtation at this point?),
I'll give you that (although I don't know where Batman and Selina are,
as they keep retrograding their relationship every couple of
years...).
and I get really annoyed by the
> vampy/vixen/boob-centered stuff like Harley's very physical interactions
> with people, or Ivy's skin-tight poisinous surface. Selina's smarter than
> that, and also more heroic.
Well, the difference I see between Selina and Ivy is that
intelligence. She's smart enough to know how to use that sexuality,
and make it work (by the way, is using sexuality somehow NOT heroic?).
The reason Ivy doesn't have as much effect on the Batman, is she used
sexuality as a blunt tool, not a rapier. Ivy is to sexuality as
Brittney Spears. Catwoman is more sophisticated.
And I'll agree with you 100% on Harley. There's a character that is
being overdrawn. She should be cute, but too much of a goof to come
off as a sex-kitten. I always picture her peeking down her top,
wondering why she hasn't been blessed enough to have the same effect
on men as her buddy, Ivy (then wacking a guy in the head with a mallet
to make up for it). There's a character where the over-breastation
comes off as out of character, and a detriment to me.
> This is the first version of the Cat I've been interested in reading in a
> long time.
>
> Shawn
Congradulations. I'm glad you're enjoying it. I might be more if it
resembled Catwoman a little more.
-Chris C.
Loren Di Iorio
: Loren wrote:
:
: > She's one of the world's greatest thieves, and like
: > she said, she's beyond that look from before. It's
: > too eye-catching, and the last thing a thief needs
: > is something that smacks of loudspeaker-type clothing.
: Why the heck would someone fighting crime want
: to put on a costume and a cape, rather than just
Selina is a *thief*: she's not fighting crime, she's using
a wardrobe that allows her to be less noticeable,
in keeping with the whole "I'm a thief, so I don't
want to steal things naked" newsflash-idea. :)
To also answer your question off the topic of CW,
Bruce did that very thing in Mask Of The Phantasm -
in a flashback, it was shown that before he became
Batman, he wore a ski mask and went to kick
some thieves around.
He succeeded in stopping them, but did not strike
fear into them, which is what he knew would be
effective. Thus, the costume and cape...
...just as Selina realizes that wearing a flashy costume
is impractical to her role as a thief.
...Loren
Fear http://www.geocities.com/gcpdguy/
Kenmlin
>who want someone with little kitty ears on her costume can have that, too.
She was well-developed (endowed) in the previous series.
Dave Doty
> Well, I'm not getting into an argument about quality, just influence.
> I don't see AC being a historically big influence, because the
> characters will not continue to have the impact of the DC/Marvel
> characters.
Neither will the characters from Watchmen. It's the style and thematic
depth that will create the largest influence over time. At the end of the
day, Marvels is nothing but the latest in an endless series of stories
about those characters. It's not going to redefine or transform any of
them.
Astro City is a new approach to superheroes, not simply a well-written
story about some particular superheroes, which is while it's influence will
be much wider.
Dave Doty
John Thorenson
>> disappointment after people placing it in a league with DK and Watchmen,
>> where it fell pathetically short.
no it didn't. don't cry.
__
"The major problem is that millions of people will have already played these
games on the PS2 by the time the Xbox versions come out." Shane, Gamespot.com
letters, 11/29/01
MegaGear X
something was wrong when I saw her new outfit. I brought the first issue to see
why she changed over. To find herself? To find Selina Kyle? Cool. Just don't
wear
: anything remotely looking like Catwoman any longer. When I saw the mask, I
flipped.
So, wear a costume, but a suitably gaudy one, not one that looks remotely
practical, that's still a costume, but in a different style? It's hard to make
sense of your competing desires. >>
My point was that if Selina wanted to escape from the shadow of Catwoman and
change her visual look, don't have anything to do with her visually. Otherwise,
it's just Cats in a leather mask and biker suit.
<< I'm just not seeing such a big disparity between spandex and leather. Is
Diana Rigg's Emma Peel a superhero, or just a very active girl? Is Buffy less
of a heroine because she wears normal (affordably stylish) clothes?
Styles change over time, by definition. >>
In a superhero universe, though? Well, I guess they do. Like the Liefeld era
where everyone had to have those belts and straps and shoulder pads... But
loosing masks and spandex TO ME is like seeing normal folks running around
instead of superheroes.
MegaGear X
you're too young to remember anything but Balent, I'm sure you can find some of
her other stories in GREATEST BATMAN STORIES EVER TOLD V2 (which includes my
all-time favorite Catwoman story) or the BATMAN IN THE 60s and 70s volumes. >>
Didn't she have a dress and a facemask in those days?
Actually my knowledge of CW costumes comes from her appearances in RECENT comic
books or animated series. And since the Jeph Loeb/Tim Sale books happened early
in Batman's career, post Crisis and post Zero, I took that as a solid look.
Written in stone for how the character must look like.
<< >You want real from a Batman villian... What next?
Maybe the Penguin changing from Burgess Meredith going wak wak wak to an
underground deal-maker. Oh, wait, they've done that one. Or Poison Ivy going
from leaf-clad temptress to environmentalist... hmm, that's been done too. >>
No, I only meant look. Having a character make more sense is one thing. But
changing them until they aren't recognizable goes too far. Penguin still looks
like Penguin. Ivy still is clad with green leafy bathing suit. (I don't know
WHY she has green skin all of a sudden. Is it because she has toxins in her
skin or something?)The Catwoman I know dresses up in a cat costume.
<< > Me, I haven't forgotten that it's a sooperhero universe.
You must be hating the current Batman writers, with their concentrations on
motivation and more detective work. Although if you want to start a petition
to bring back the Rainbow-Colored Bat-Suits and Batman visiting alien planets
every other week, I'm there. >>
Not at all. I never talked about the writing. I was talking about the way the
characters look. I prefer comic book spandex to Matrix leather. I don't even
collect Batman on a regular basis, but I know who's who. If it wasn't for her
glove and the title, I wouldn't have known it was Catwoman on the cover of her
new book.
<< > This scene is kinda unnecessary, but why does Cats wear no panties?
> Restrictions?
Spoken like someone who's never worried about panty lines in skin-tight spandex
or leather. :) >>
So, the guys with one piece costumes like Flash... but not Spider-Man...don't
wear underwear? Holy tight buns and suction!
MegaGear X
she's wearing her mask-- it has little kitty ears on it. Now everyone is
happy. Those who want a well-developed character can have one, and those who
want someone with little kitty ears on her costume can have that, too. >>
I have the issue. I know about the mask. I'm just bitching about the
decostuming trend that comic books is going through. The CW I'm used to wears a
bodysuit that looks like a cat. Sometimes she had a tail and sometimes she
didn't. Not a biker outfit. The only thing cat-like on her is the mask, and I'm
surprised that she is wearing it, since she wanted to define herself as Selina,
not CW.
<< Od course, since you've never read the book and don't seem to have any
intention to, you're probably not DC's target audience. >>
For this book, probably not. But for her appearances in The Long Halloween and
Dark Victory, definitely.
MegaGear X
: Does the Scarecrow gotta lose the straw hat to be
: cool to you? Me, I haven't forgotten that it's a
: sooperhero universe.
Um...not the Bat-realm. If anything, his villains are
less super-powered than the others. >>
But they don't have to be god-like in power to be superhero-like. And being
less powered doesn't mean no spandex or gaudy costumes. Look at Harley, Joker,
Mad Hatter, Ivy... and the list goes on.
<< : Spandex. Secret Identities. Super Powers. Laser guns.
: Bow and arrows against giant robots. Ninjas. Aliens.
: Muscular Men. Voluptuous Women. Screw real. If you
: want real, read the newspaper, not a SUPERHERO
: comic book.
Nearly half the things you mentioned don't even apply
to the Bat-books, and I'll remain with my view that
he's a hero, not a superhero, insofar as one takes
the definition of "superhero" to be "a hero with
super powers". >>
My definition is a character who dresses up in an attention getting costume and
saves peoples lives and fights criminals. Batman is a superhero, despite his
non-powered status.
<< Hardly. This version of CW isn't emphatically T&A
like Tarot was.
And Selina's not Matrix-like, it's Emma Peel (as
Bru's wife, whose idea about Mrs. Peel inspired
the look), because Mrs. Peel was just as enticing,
without a bouncing chest.
If there's one thing about CW this time around,
it's that she's not dumbed down. >>
What I mean by dumbed down is that a character's look had to change because the
creators think that the way the character looked wasn't going to sell copies to
folks that ordinarily wasn't going to buy the book. So, it isn't the "real"
version we are getting, but a changed version because kids think "blah blah"
is'nt cool.
If this was the early nineties, then CW would have had straps, even bigger
boobs, and some Liefeldian pocket thinges on her arms and legs. Nowadays black
leather and no masks are the fad. Change isn't necessarily a great thing.
MegaGear X
mask
: confuses me. It's like "I wanna be a normal anti-hero, but somehow I still
: gotta wear...this!" and she pulls on a cat-earred mask.
Because she still wants to protect her civilian identity? >>
But wearing a cat-like mask? Didn't she want to escape from Catwoman? She ought
to wear something else over her face...
MegaGear X
cape, rather than just pull on a ski mask and kick some ass.....? >>
It's a superhero comic book!
We don't wanna see Joe the electrician put on a ski mask, run outside witha
baseball bat and get into trouble.
MegaGear X
of the Great Kite would Selina *want* to draw
attention to herself?
She's one of the world's greatest thieves, and like
she said, she's beyond that look from before. It's
too eye-catching, and the last thing a thief needs
is something that smacks of loudspeaker-type
clothing.>>
Damn real, she's a great thief if she can wear a costume and get into places
unnoticed. But she's done it in the past without being noticed. And besides the
media would blame Catwoman, not Selina Kyle, if she did get seen and got away.
Secret identity comic book type thing.
UNLESS of course things have changed since Dark Victory and her identity is
common knowlegde...
Loren Di Iorio
: UNLESS of course things have changed since Dark
: Victory and her identity is common knowledge...
Neither DV nor TLH are in continuity.
...Loren
Fear http://www.geocities.com/gcpdguy/
Johanna Draper Carlson
> since the Jeph Loeb/Tim Sale books happened early
> in Batman's career, post Crisis and post Zero, I took that as a solid look.
> Written in stone for how the character must look like.
Written in stone? In the DCU? Bwa ha ha!
> No, I only meant look. Having a character make more sense is one thing. But
> changing them until they aren't recognizable goes too far.
I'm not sure everyone would agree with you that Catwoman is unrecognizable
in skin-tight leather with a cat-eye mask.
>> You must be hating the current Batman writers, with their concentrations on
>> motivation and more detective work. Although if you want to start a petition
>> to bring back the Rainbow-Colored Bat-Suits and Batman visiting alien planets
>> every other week, I'm there.
>
> Not at all. I never talked about the writing. I was talking about the way the
> characters look.
So was I, with the rainbow-colored bat-suits.
> So, the guys with one piece costumes like Flash... but not Spider-Man...don't
> wear underwear? Holy tight buns and suction!
Hey, they don't have gentials, so why do they need underwear? :)
You mention elsewhere a decostuming trend annoying you. Who, besides
Catwoman and the X-Men, have given up costumes recently? Superman, Batman,
Wonder Woman, Flash, Green Lantern all are still in spandex.
> it isn't the "real" version we are getting, but a changed version because kids
> think "blah blah" is'nt cool.
This is why I brought up the history of the character since the 1940s. There
is no "real" version anymore, let alone Boob Lass.
Johanna Draper Carlson joh...@comicsworthreading.com
Reviews of Comics Worth Reading -- http://www.comicsworthreading.com
Newly updated: December Previews, Reviews of Catwoman, JLA, Avengers
Dave Doty
> I have the issue. I know about the mask. I'm just bitching about the
> decostuming trend that comic books is going through. The CW I'm used to
> wears a bodysuit that looks like a cat.
It's a generic purple bodysuit. Except for the coming-and-going tail, the
mask is the only thing that's been catlike about it, unless cats have a
fetish for skintight bodystockings that I don't know about. <g>
Dave Doty
Shawn Hill
: Shawn Hill <sh...@fas.harvard.edu> wrote in message news:<9uqur9$286$2...@news.fas.harvard.edu>...
Dude, I'm writing the new chapter.
Shawn
John Thorenson
the catwoman you know is badly written and drawn like a five dollar whore. if
that's what you're looking for, there are far better places for that sort of
thing. don't cry.
Aaron Mojo Hazouri or Bizarro No 1
>
>
Is she not dressed as a cat anymore? Then why the hell call her Catwoman?
I really am confused by some of these things. Why do they turn Batman into
a grumpy robot, get rid of Comissioner Gordon, send Alfred away (AGAIN), and
not hire anybody that can draw well?
Why don't they just run TWO Batman books a month; one big "Batman Family"
anthology and one self-contained BATMAN book (with maybe more than one story in
it!) each month? Rotate artists or something? More importantly, why remove
all the Batman characters when to bring them back would be cliched and expected
but to keep them gone would be a waste of a familiar, well-developed character?
-Aaron
M-Wolverine
> M-Wolverine <ch...@pnc-wbi.com> wrote:
>
> :> : And I really don't understand all the boob complaints......if there
> :> : was ever one character that should be ridculously hot, it should be
> :> : Catwoman. Now when Dr. Light starts tipping over from the, ah,
> :> : imbalance, that's another thing.....
> :>
> :> Hot and ridiculous don't always go together. She looks pretty hot now, I
> :> think, in the theif leathers.
> :>
>
> : But they can. And my example is this character should be as unreal as
> : some steriod pumped hero. I mentioned Dr. Light, not because I didn't
>
> Not if she's trying to be sneaky and clandestine and theiving though, if
> you think about it.
So she should have a boob reduction job to ber a thief? She also
shouldn't wear a costume. Batman shouldn't wear a cape. They're
superheroes.
> : think she was "hot" (liked her more than anyone else did in the JL
> : titles), but it would be out of character for HER to be ridiculously
> : hot.
>
> Well, it's actually out of character for her to wear such an attention
> getting costume at all, but she does it.
>
Again, all the more reason Catwoman should be in costume. It's a
superhero universe. That's what's expected.
-Chris C.