Hal Jordan vs. the New Guy
Czeskleba
Well, I haven't bought any new comics regularly for a long time, although I
glance at them occasionally on the stands. I was vaguely aware of what they
did to the Hal Jordan character awhile ago, and the other day I picked up a new
issue of GL when I saw that Hal was back. Inspired by reading that, I decided
to check out this NG and have been perusing the heated discussion between Hal
and Kyle partisans. So now I feel like kicking in my two cents.
I don't much care if they bring in a new Green Lantern, since I probably will
not ever be a regular buyer of that title again (unless they bring back the
late John Broome). A new character for a new generation of fans, that's fine.
What pisses me off, though, is the way Hal Jordan was written out. That whole
thing is a fine illustration of why this Marz guy gets accused of being a bad
writer: changing a character's personality completely and in a totally
unbelievable way simply to advance a plot is indeed bad writing. A better
writer would have found a way to make the switch to a new GL in an interesting
and exciting manner which was still consistent with the personality of Hal
Jordan that had been established over a period of 30 or so years.
People get attached to characters, even though it is fundamentally silly to do
so. For all the fans of the current GL who think it is silly to get upset over
Hal Jordan's fate, consider how you might feel if in a couple years a plotline
is introduced in which Kyle becomes a crack-smoking child molester. Change
inevitably has to happen, but it doesn't have to occur at the expense of all
that came before. I hope that the current plotline will at least end in a way
that allows Hal Jordan to reclaim a little bit of dignity.
BigBadOmar
{(unless they bring back the
late John Broome)}
Uh, John Broome's not dead.
[hat whole
thing is a fine illustration of why this Marz guy gets accused of being a bad
writer: changing a character's personality completely and in a totally
unbelievable way simply to advance a plot is indeed bad writing.}
Actually he wrote him in the most realistic way possible considering the
situation. You know, Coast City, KABOOM, gone is everything that was important
to you, that kind of thing.
{ A better
writer would have found a way to make the switch to a new GL in an interesting
and exciting manner which was still consistent with the personality of Hal
Jordan that had been established over a period of 30 or so years.}
Actually about seven to eight years since the crisis. But this writer was told
what to do by a collaboration of editors.
{For all the fans of the current GL who think it is silly to get upset over
Hal Jordan's fate, consider how you might feel if in a couple years a plotline
is introduced in which Kyle becomes a crack-smoking child molester.}
If the story was well-written, I'd buy it.
{I hope that the current plotline will at least end in a way
that allows Hal Jordan to reclaim a little bit of dignity.}
Murderers don't deserve dignity.
Czeskleba
>Uh, John Broome's not dead.
Glad to hear it. As I said, I haven't kept up on things, so I took a guess.
Figured I had a 50/50 chance. Glad I was wrong. He's a great writer. My bad.
>Actually he wrote him in the most realistic way possible considering the
>situation. You know, Coast City, KABOOM, gone is everything that was
>important
>to you, that kind of thing.
I disagree that it was realistic. People are either born genetically
predisposed to be homicidal maniacs, or they develop those traits due to
abusive childhood experiences. But normal, healthy, well-adjusted adults do
not spontaneously turn into homicidal maniacs, even if they are subjected to
extreme tragedy far beyond the realm of normal human experience. Let's compare
to reality... the closest real world equivalent I can think of to what happened
to Hal is the Holocaust. How many Holocaust survivors turned into homicidal
maniacs due to their experiences? None that I have heard of. In extreme
cases, a person may have a brief psychotic reaction due to a tragedy, but it is
not going to change their entire character. Hal dancing around naked and
drooling amongst the ruins of Coast City, that could be argued to be
realistic... but turning into a homicidal maniac is not.
Having a previously heroic (or at least normal) character turn into a homicidal
maniac has become the second biggest cliche in comics, second only to killing
off a main character so the hero can take revenge. Falling back on such a
ridiculous (and unrealistic) cliche is a hallmark of incredibly bad writing.
>But this writer was told
>what to do by a collaboration of editors.
Fine. Whoever's idea it was is a lousy writer. I have no investment in trying
to claim Marz is a lousy writer, I haven't read enough of his stuff to have an
opinion one way or the other.
>If the story was well-written, I'd buy it.
>
My point exactly. The "Hal goes Loopy" stories were very poorly written, at
least in the plotting sense. I don't remember taking notice of the quality of
the dialogue at the time.
>Murderers don't deserve dignity.
Well, tomorrow he probably won't be a murderer anymore, with all the rebooting
bullshit that goes on in comics these days. Continuity means nothing these
days, because no writer seems to have anything but contempt for what came
before. In my own personal retcon Hal and Barry Allen are having a beer
somewhere, the multiverse is still intact, and everything post-crisis takes
place on Earth-BS.
Russell "Coconut Daemon" Bailey
Czeskleba wrote:
> Well, I haven't bought any new comics regularly for a long time, although I
> glance at them occasionally on the stands. I was vaguely aware of what they
> did to the Hal Jordan character awhile ago, and the other day I picked up a new
> issue of GL when I saw that Hal was back. Inspired by reading that, I decided
> to check out this NG and have been perusing the heated discussion between Hal
> and Kyle partisans. So now I feel like kicking in my two cents.
>
> I don't much care if they bring in a new Green Lantern, since I probably will
> not ever be a regular buyer of that title again (unless they bring back the
> late John Broome). A new character for a new generation of fans, that's fine.
> What pisses me off, though, is the way Hal Jordan was written out. That whole
> thing is a fine illustration of why this Marz guy gets accused of being a bad
> writer: changing a character's personality completely and in a totally
> unbelievable way simply to advance a plot is indeed bad writing. A better
> writer would have found a way to make the switch to a new GL in an interesting
> and exciting manner which was still consistent with the personality of Hal
> Jordan that had been established over a period of 30 or so years.
Be aware that Marz (though I'm not terribly fond of his writing either) had to
write three issues and plot a fourth in the time he would usually get to do one.
Russell
Russell "Coconut Daemon" Bailey
> { A better
> writer would have found a way to make the switch to a new GL in an interesting
> and exciting manner which was still consistent with the personality of Hal
> Jordan that had been established over a period of 30 or so years.}
>
> Actually about seven to eight years since the crisis.
No, Hal was on the road he was on for longer than that... Emerald Dawn was only
a few minor changes, to make the whole business more plausible. It wasn't The Man
of Steel.
> If the story was well-written, I'd buy it.
>
Glad you wouldn't call it "knuckling under to the hiveminded Hal Jordan morons."
Several folks on this group would. I wonder what crack and Kyle's vaunted
imagination would do with his ring :). I can't imagine a good way to handle that
one. 'Course, the only proffessional writing experience I have is RPGs. So
there might be a way. I really doubt it, and I can't believe I even started
thinking about it seriously.
> {I hope that the current plotline will at least end in a way
> that allows Hal Jordan to reclaim a little bit of dignity.}
>
> Murderers don't deserve dignity.
Debateable. He's not a murderer, he's a character. Nobody denies Iago his
soliloquies because he's evil. Plus, when Dooley and Marz are gone, he'll be
handled differently again. It's part of the infinite turnover of comics.
Russell
CpSpalding
Czeskleba wrote:
>I don't much care if they bring in a new Green Lantern, since I probably will
>not ever be a regular buyer of that title again (unless they bring back the
>late John Broome).
While I agreed with many of the opinions in your post, I'd point out that John
Broome is actually alive and kicking. In fact a group of Hal Jordan fans named
HEAT are helping to bring him to this years San Diego Comic Con.
----------------------------------------
In 1992, we had The Death of Superman kicking off the gimmick era, Youngblood
#1 kicking off the Image era, the star of the Wizard era, and DC axing a
profitable JSA series kicking off the Logan's Run era at DC.
Sebastien Melmoth
"Russell \"Coconut Daemon\" Bailey" <cctd...@erols.com> wrote:
>Be aware that Marz (though I'm not terribly fond of his writing either) had to
>write three issues and plot a fourth in the time he would usually get to do one.
This brings to my mind a point that I think a lot of the posters here
are missing. Emerald Twilight wasn't Ron Marz' idea. The death of the
guardians/murder of the corps/Jordan goes insane plot was a construct
of Levitz/Carlin/O'neil/Goodwin when they replaced Gerry Jones because
of low sales. Ron Marz was basically given the instructions "Write
this story for us, and then run with the ball." Whatever you want to
hold against Marz, I don't think it's fair to hold "What he did to Hal
Jordan" against him. Blame said editors for that.
As to his writing skills, I really can't say. The only Marz comics
I've ever actually read would be the Desaad/Genesis issue, the
Starlin/Robotworld issue, and 97-100. As for those issues in
particular, I'd say that the plotting was "pretty good," but there
isn't really very much about the character of Kyle that makes me want
to know more about him, or see more of his exploits. In his own comic,
it seems that, while at least he isn't at all the irritating jackass
Grant writes him as in JLA, but on the other hand, I think he's just a
rather boring guy. I'm not particularly interested in seeing the
exploits of That Guy Who Sat Next To Me in Economics 102, which is why
i don't watch Friends, and which is also why i don't watch green
lantern. *shrug*
@>-->>-->>--
Sebastien Melmoth
We doctors know
a hopeless case if--listen: there's a hell
of a good universe next door;let's go
--E.E. Cummings
CapNuclear
>For all the fans of the current GL who think it is silly to get upset over
>Hal Jordan's fate, consider how you might feel if in a couple years a
>plotline
>is introduced in which Kyle becomes a crack-smoking child molester.
Well, I'd have to say that as a fan of the current book, my reaction to such a
change would be to drop the book and get on with the rest of my life. This all
reminds me of the "what will we do now?" crap that surrounded the end of
"Seinfeld". Sitcom or comic book, they're entertainment, and once it's not
entertaining anymore, you should just live with it and not feel like somebody
"owes" you. They've fulfilled their part of the bargan, giving you about twenty
minutes of escapism for two dollars. If they're not entertaining you anymore,
you don't give them their two dollars, and they have to stop making the book
and ask themselves why it failed. The sales on GL are better than they've been
since "Crisis", so in DC's opinion nothing needs changing. Once all the fans
(as well as the Hal-champions who continue to buy the book in order to give
examples of why Marz is a bad writer on these boards) stop buying, they'll
reevaluate the book and send it in another direction, perhaps making Kyle a
"crack smoking child molester" in order to facilitate the change.
They're just bloody comics, people, let's try to keep things in focus.
Otherwise, we're going to end up getting laughed at by Trekkies.
My belief.
Christopher Petersen
Matthew Herper <mjherper@mit.
Sebastien Melmoth wrote:
>
> "Russell \"Coconut Daemon\" Bailey" <cctd...@erols.com> wrote:
>
> >Be aware that Marz (though I'm not terribly fond of his writing either) had to
> >write three issues and plot a fourth in the time he would usually get to do one.
>
> This brings to my mind a point that I think a lot of the posters here
> are missing. Emerald Twilight wasn't Ron Marz' idea. The death of the
> guardians/murder of the corps/Jordan goes insane plot was a construct
> of Levitz/Carlin/O'neil/Goodwin when they replaced Gerry Jones because
> of low sales. Ron Marz was basically given the instructions "Write
> this story for us, and then run with the ball." Whatever you want to
> hold against Marz, I don't think it's fair to hold "What he did to Hal
> Jordan" against him. Blame said editors for that.
Of course the counter-argument is, "Well, Marzy-Pan didn't have to write
the damn thing." Which is true. But I think it's bullshit -- they were
going to write this story with or without Marz. I can't judge him for
taking the story.
Actually, if they'd offered it to me, I would have taken it. I mean,
Giordano says, "Look, we're going to have Hal Jordan go insane and kill
the entire corps because the character is no longer viable, but if you
plot it you can write whatever's left and we hope it sells or we'll just
cancel the book. But, if you do this, that the _idea_ of Green Lantern
is yours to save."
I mean, it's one way to look at it, and it's not that easy to turn down.
My real complaint about Marz is he set Kyle up to be interesting but
never took advantage of it. An artist with the ring? That's
interesting. What if his fearlessness is the result of his creativity
and sensitivity -- a kind of intuitive understanding that Hal lacked
that at the same time can make the new GL rash and give him a kind
of inner piece. I mean, it seems like art is something Marz's Kyle
does instead of something he can't help doing.
It's like the guy's play-acting at being an artist, when he should just
be one. And then the ring could be like instant sculpture -- incredibly
addictive to someone who's a visual artist. And then he could create
some of the most beautiful things we've ever seen. Just 'cause.
And I have no objection to the beautiful women, except that it's not
a concept you can take to it's obvious conclusion outside of vertigo.
(Horny young guy has ring that can make beautiful women. Suddenly he
stays in his room for days. Eventually, he comes out, looking drained,
hungry, and with horrible bedhead.)
Matt.
Czeskleba
> they were
>going to write this story with or without Marz. I can't judge him for
>taking the story.
>
>Actually, if they'd offered it to me, I would have taken it.
It all depends, I guess. If I was an established writer in the biz, I would
tell the editors to go fuck themselves before I would write a story like that
(like Doug Moench did years ago when Jim Shooter told him he had to kill off
half the supporting cast in Master of Kung Fu). If I was just starting out,
though, I would probably take the job and try to make sure Hal turned into a
homicidal maniac with as much dignity as possible... I don't know what kind of
status Marz had before he started on GL, but it sounds like he is not the one
to blame.
Czeskleba
>Sitcom or comic book, they're entertainment, and once it's not
>entertaining anymore, you should just live with it and not feel like somebody
>"owes" you. They've fulfilled their part of the bargan, giving you about
>twenty
>minutes of escapism for two dollars. If they're not entertaining you anymore,
>you don't give them their two dollars, and they have to stop making the book
>and ask themselves why it failed. The sales on GL are better than they've
>been
>since "Crisis", so in DC's opinion nothing needs changing.
Yeah, I agree with this, which is why I haven't bought a new DC comic in about
ten years. Comics are profit-driven, and it certainly has proven to be
profitable to turn GL into a homicidal maniac. This isn't something that
keeps me awake at night, but it is something that annoys me when I stop to
think about it, as I did the other day when I saw an issue of GL at the grocery
store.
Mike
> A new character for a new generation of fans, that's fine.
> What pisses me off, though, is the way Hal Jordan was written out. That
whole
> thing is a fine illustration of why this Marz guy gets accused of being a
bad
> writer: changing a character's personality completely and in a totally
better
> writer would have found a way to make the switch to a new GL in an
interesting
> and exciting manner which was still consistent with the personality of
Hal
> Jordan that had been established over a period of 30 or so years.
> People get attached to characters, even though it is fundamentally silly
to do
> so. For all the fans of the current GL who think it is silly to get
upset over
> Hal Jordan's fate, consider how you might feel if in a couple years a
plotline
> is introduced in which Kyle becomes a crack-smoking child molester.
Change
> inevitably has to happen, but it doesn't have to occur at the expense of
all
> that came before.
Get a life man. This whole Hal/Kyle fiasco shit is so dead. People just
move the fuck on. Hal is dead. Would you like me to say it again? Hal is
mother fucking dead. Jesus Christ you people go on and on about this shit
like it was your father who went crazy and started shooting people in the
local McDonalds. That didn't happen. It was an intresting twist to see
how people can go crazy when faced with horrible problems, hell that's how
almost ever piece of good literature ever written in course of human events
has come about. People going crazy, look at fucking Ernest Hemingway or
Edgar Allen Poe. You people need to stop. It's a god damn comic book. If
you don't like what they've done stop reading it, but of course you can't
do that can you because you're fucking psychos.
CpSpalding
Cap Nuclear:
>
>Well, I'd have to say that as a fan of the current book, my reaction to such
>a
>change would be to drop the book and get on with the rest of my life. This
>all
>reminds me of the "what will we do now?" crap that surrounded the end of
>"Seinfeld". Sitcom or comic book, they're entertainment, and once it's not
>entertaining anymore, you should just live with it and not feel like somebody
>"owes" you. They've fulfilled their part of the bargan, giving you about
>twenty
>minutes of escapism for two dollars. If they're not entertaining you anymore,
>you don't give them their two dollars, and they have to stop making the book
>and ask themselves why it failed. The sales on GL are better than they've
>been
>since "Crisis", so in DC's opinion nothing needs changing. Once all the fans
>(as well as the Hal-champions who continue to buy the book in order to give
>examples of why Marz is a bad writer on these boards) stop buying, they'll
>reevaluate the book and send it in another direction, perhaps making Kyle a
>"crack smoking child molester" in order to facilitate the change.
>They're just bloody comics, people, let's try to keep things in focus.
>Otherwise, we're going to end up getting laughed at by Trekkies.
>
>
See, to my mind, the problem isn't the 2500 people who signed the petition or
the others who haven't signed yet still complain. The problem to me is the
many people who have just decided comics weren't for them anymore and "got on
with their lives". I guess being laughed at by Trekies would be a bad thing,
but having so few readers that Trekies would be asking "What's a comic book?"
would be worse.
eternally
Czeskleba wrote:
>
> Well, I haven't bought any new comics regularly for a long time, although I
> glance at them occasionally on the stands. I was vaguely aware of what they
> did to the Hal Jordan character awhile ago, and the other day I picked up a new
> issue of GL when I saw that Hal was back. Inspired by reading that, I decided
> to check out this NG and have been perusing the heated discussion between Hal
> and Kyle partisans. So now I feel like kicking in my two cents.
>
> not ever be a regular buyer of that title again (unless they bring back the
> What pisses me off, though, is the way Hal Jordan was written out. That whole
> thing is a fine illustration of why this Marz guy gets accused of being a bad
> writer: changing a character's personality completely and in a totally
> unbelievable way simply to advance a plot is indeed bad writing. A better
> writer would have found a way to make the switch to a new GL in an interesting
> and exciting manner which was still consistent with the personality of Hal
> Jordan that had been established over a period of 30 or so years.
>
> People get attached to characters, even though it is fundamentally silly to do
> so. For all the fans of the current GL who think it is silly to get upset over
> Hal Jordan's fate, consider how you might feel if in a couple years a plotline
> is introduced in which Kyle becomes a crack-smoking child molester. Change
> inevitably has to happen, but it doesn't have to occur at the expense of all
> that allows Hal Jordan to reclaim a little bit of dignity.
well said, though i don't think there is any way they can fix the
current mess without an explanation positing that it was not the real
Hal (several people have thought of ways for them to do this) or a
complete retcon erasing the whole thing.
you're certainly correct that a better writer could've come up with a
dozen other ways to get the change DC wanted without this kind of
ridiculous characterization, but there are so many fans out there who
can't even tell the difference anyway, i guess DC decided it was once
again time to pander to the lowest common denominator instead of doing
what would be best in the long run.
- e.
eternally
Sebastien Melmoth wrote:
>
> "Russell \"Coconut Daemon\" Bailey" <cctd...@erols.com> wrote:
>
> >Be aware that Marz (though I'm not terribly fond of his writing either) had to
> >write three issues and plot a fourth in the time he would usually get to do one.
>
> This brings to my mind a point that I think a lot of the posters here
> are missing. Emerald Twilight wasn't Ron Marz' idea. The death of the
> guardians/murder of the corps/Jordan goes insane plot was a construct
> of Levitz/Carlin/O'neil/Goodwin when they replaced Gerry Jones because
> of low sales. Ron Marz was basically given the instructions "Write
> this story for us, and then run with the ball." Whatever you want to
> hold against Marz, I don't think it's fair to hold "What he did to Hal
> Jordan" against him. Blame said editors for that.
on the contrary, though you are right that Marz is not the ONLY person
to blame, he HAS expressed in interviews and such his contempt for the
concepts of the GLC and Hal. so obviously, they found someone to write
it that agreed with the concept. after all, better writers turned them
down...
> isn't really very much about the character of Kyle that makes me want
> to know more about him, or see more of his exploits. In his own comic,
> it seems that, while at least he isn't at all the irritating jackass
> Grant writes him as in JLA, but on the other hand, I think he's just a
> rather boring guy. I'm not particularly interested in seeing the
exactly. he's portrayed as a shallow ass in other, better-written books
because that's what the writers of those books feel is the personality
most suited to the flaccid bore he is written as in his own book , where
he lacks any discernible personality. he comes out more entertaining to
read under those other writers because some personality, even an
annoying one, is better than none. and also more entertaining.
- e.
eternally
CpSpalding wrote:
>
> Czeskleba wrote:
>
> >I don't much care if they bring in a new Green Lantern, since I probably will
> >not ever be a regular buyer of that title again (unless they bring back the
> >late John Broome).
>
> Broome is actually alive and kicking. In fact a group of Hal Jordan fans named
> HEAT are helping to bring him to this years San Diego Comic Con.
hmmmm, i wonder how Mr. Broome feels about all this...
- e.
Cap'n Bludd
Seems like you're the one ranting, and getting all worked up over a
comic book.
Cap'n Bludd
"Mike" <papa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>Get a life man. This whole Hal/Kyle fiasco shit is so dead. People just
>move the fuck on. Hal is dead. Would you like me to say it again? Hal is
>mother fucking dead. Jesus Christ you people go on and on about this shit
>like it was your father who went crazy and started shooting people in the
>local McDonalds. That didn't happen. It was an intresting twist to see
>how people can go crazy when faced with horrible problems, hell that's how
>almost ever piece of good literature ever written in course of human events
>has come about. People going crazy, look at fucking Ernest Hemingway or
>Edgar Allen Poe. You people need to stop. It's a god damn comic book. If
>you don't like what they've done stop reading it, but of course you can't
>do that can you because you're fucking psychos.
>
>
cpnb...@pipeline.com
capn...@aol.com
http://www.pipeline.com/~cpnbludd
The probability of someone watching you is directly
proportional to the stupidity of your actions....
Michael...@my-dejanews.com
In article <199806150517...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
capnu...@aol.com (CapNuclear) wrote:
>
> >For all the fans of the current GL who think it is silly to get upset over
> >Hal Jordan's fate, consider how you might feel if in a couple years a
> >plotline
> >is introduced in which Kyle becomes a crack-smoking child molester.
>
> change would be to drop the book and get on with the rest of my life. This all
> reminds me of the "what will we do now?" crap that surrounded the end of
> "Seinfeld". Sitcom or comic book, they're entertainment, and once it's not
> entertaining anymore, you should just live with it and not feel like somebody
> "owes" you. They've fulfilled their part of the bargan, giving you about twenty
> minutes of escapism for two dollars. If they're not entertaining you anymore,
> you don't give them their two dollars, and they have to stop making the book
> and ask themselves why it failed. The sales on GL are better than they've been
> since "Crisis", so in DC's opinion nothing needs changing. Once all the fans
> (as well as the Hal-champions who continue to buy the book in order to give
> examples of why Marz is a bad writer on these boards) stop buying, they'll
> reevaluate the book and send it in another direction, perhaps making Kyle a
> "crack smoking child molester" in order to facilitate the change.
> They're just bloody comics, people, let's try to keep things in focus.
> Otherwise, we're going to end up getting laughed at by Trekkies.
>
> Christopher Petersen
>
I can't believe someone raised the "hey, they're just comics" argument
again.
Christopher-
This is a NG that EXISTS to provide a forum to discuss comics.
As I write this, it is 6:30 on a Monday night. By 8:30, I will be out in
public with my friends and other assorted people. If I were to start
complaining about GREEN LANTERN at 9, yes, that would be taking it too
seriously. Yes, I would deserve criticism.
But checking in with this NG once or twice a day, and maybe posting if I
have the time or interest- is NOT taking comics too seriously, no matter what
I post or how I word it, because it's such a small part of my way too busy
life. Tell me you can see the distinction, somebody.
If, as your rather plaintive "we're going to be laughed at by Trekkies"
comment indicates, you have such a low opinion of...well, yourself that you
are so insecure, that's your problem, not mine.
Mike Murray
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
EobardT30
{For all the fans of the current GL who think it is silly to get upset over
Hal Jordan's fate, consider how you might feel if in a couple years a plotline
is introduced in which Kyle becomes a crack-smoking child molester.}
let's see now, hal jordan slept with arisia a whole lot. that makes him a
child molester. he also was a drunk driver before getting the ring. not
exactly crack, but still something wrong.
Czeskleba
Well, you missed the point of my original comment. I was trying to help you
Kyle fans understand my perspective, by pointing out that if DC suddenly made
Kyle start acting ridiculously heinous in a manner that was totally
inconsistent with his established personality, you would be upset. Which you
at least obviously were, given that you responded defensively by attacking the
Hal Jordan character.
Czeskleba
>Get a life man. This whole Hal/Kyle fiasco shit is so dead. People just
>move the fuck on. Hal is dead. Would you like me to say it again? Hal is
>mother fucking dead. Jesus Christ you people go on and on about this shit
>like it was your father who went crazy and started shooting people in the
>local McDonalds. That didn't happen. It was an intresting twist to see
>how people can go crazy when faced with horrible problems, hell that's how
>almost ever piece of good literature ever written in course of human events
>has come about. People going crazy, look at fucking Ernest Hemingway or
>Edgar Allen Poe. You people need to stop. It's a god damn comic book. If
>you don't like what they've done stop reading it, but of course you can't
>do that can you because you're fucking psychos.
>
>
>
I have found that the intelligence level of a post is generally in inverse
proportion to the number of "fuck" derivations in it. As I said, I did stop
buying Green Lantern, a long time ago. All I was doing is stating my
opinion... I realize it is a comic book, I don't lose any sleep over it, but
that doesn't mean I can't have an opinion.
But you are right, of course... every piece of great literature ever written
has the protagonist turn into a psycho killer at some point. I always loved it
in "Huckleberry Finn" when Huck chops up Tom Sawyer with an axe and eats his
brains... and who can forget the scene in "Les Miserables" where Jean Valjean
gets his musket and sits on top of the convent roof randomly shooting nuns...
Captain Atom
CapNuclear wrote:
> Well, I'd have to say that as a fan of the current book, my reaction to such a
> change would be to drop the book and get on with the rest of my life. This all
> reminds me of the "what will we do now?" crap that surrounded the end of
> "Seinfeld". Sitcom or comic book, they're entertainment, and once it's not
> entertaining anymore, you should just live with it and not feel like somebody
> "owes" you. They've fulfilled their part of the bargan, giving you about twenty
> minutes of escapism for two dollars. If they're not entertaining you anymore,
> you don't give them their two dollars, and they have to stop making the book
> and ask themselves why it failed. The sales on GL are better than they've been
> since "Crisis", so in DC's opinion nothing needs changing. Once all the fans
> (as well as the Hal-champions who continue to buy the book in order to give
> examples of why Marz is a bad writer on these boards) stop buying, they'll
> reevaluate the book and send it in another direction, perhaps making Kyle a
> "crack smoking child molester" in order to facilitate the change.
> They're just bloody comics, people, let's try to keep things in focus.
> Otherwise, we're going to end up getting laughed at by Trekkies.
Let's have some applause for this guy! He hit the nail on the head!
Finally, someone who gets what this is all about! Whoo-hoo!
I couldn't have said it better myself. Great Captains think alike.
I've said this before, but I'll say it again now. My favorite DCU
character a few years ago was Guy Gardner with the yellow ring. Then,
during "Zero Hour," he got all the freaky powers he has now and became
Warrior. I wasn't very fond of the change. Then he did something
uncharacteristic, in the context of his personal history, and killed
Major Force. I was shocked.
But I didn't mind all of this stuff. I simply let my subscription run
out. That's it. I didn't write angry letters to DC, I didn't take out
full-page ads in Wizard and I didn't sit in a pool of my own piss over
it. You know why? I didn't own the character, I had no stock in it and I
had no claim over it. The character belonged to the company and the
characters, not to me. They were free to do whatever they wanted to with
it, and I could either read or not read. I chose not to.
Part of this attitude, I suppose, comes from being a
writer/photographer/editor/designer myself. I produce as I see fit. I
can't be bothered by sales or promotional questions, nor by the demands
of insane consumers. That's something my boss has to deal with, and then
pass down to me. I figure if they don't like what I'm doing, they can
just stop reading.
--CAPTAIN ATOM
eternally
EobardT30 wrote:
>
> {For all the fans of the current GL who think it is silly to get upset over
> Hal Jordan's fate, consider how you might feel if in a couple years a plotline
> is introduced in which Kyle becomes a crack-smoking child molester.}
>
> let's see now, hal jordan slept with arisia a whole lot. that makes him a
> child molester. he also was a drunk driver before getting the ring.
huh??? (x2)
- e.
Kestrel
"Matthew Herper <mjherper@mit." <"remove-me>.edu"> wrote:
>Of course the counter-argument is, "Well, Marzy-Pan didn't have to write
>the damn thing." Which is true. But I think it's bullshit -- they were
>going to write this story with or without Marz. I can't judge him for
>taking the story.
Right. This is probably some big money we're talking about here,
and a chance to pick up one of the name books. While I don't
like Marz' writing, he would have to be a fool to pass this up.
>Actually, if they'd offered it to me, I would have taken it. I mean,
>Giordano says, "Look, we're going to have Hal Jordan go insane and kill
>the entire corps because the character is no longer viable, but if you
>plot it you can write whatever's left and we hope it sells or we'll just
>cancel the book. But, if you do this, that the _idea_ of Green Lantern
>is yours to save."
>
>I mean, it's one way to look at it, and it's not that easy to turn down.
Especially not with the cash coming from it.
>My real complaint about Marz is he set Kyle up to be interesting but
>never took advantage of it. An artist with the ring? That's
>interesting. What if his fearlessness is the result of his creativity
>and sensitivity -- a kind of intuitive understanding that Hal lacked
>that at the same time can make the new GL rash and give him a kind
>of inner piece. I mean, it seems like art is something Marz's Kyle
>does instead of something he can't help doing.
Right. And we don't see that creativity except in an exceptionally
narrow range: his art and his constructs. Nothing creative outside
those.
>It's like the guy's play-acting at being an artist, when he should just
>be one. And then the ring could be like instant sculpture -- incredibly
>addictive to someone who's a visual artist. And then he could create
>some of the most beautiful things we've ever seen. Just 'cause.
>
>And I have no objection to the beautiful women, except that it's not
>a concept you can take to it's obvious conclusion outside of vertigo.
>(Horny young guy has ring that can make beautiful women. Suddenly he
>stays in his room for days. Eventually, he comes out, looking drained,
>hungry, and with horrible bedhead.)
Actually, Ice caught Guy doing that, IIRC.
Kestrel
Contrary to popular opinion, the United
States government is a bozocracy: a
government of clowns, by clowns, and
for clowns. Any explanation to the
contrary is just plain silly.
Kestrel
"Mike" <papa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> A new character for a new generation of fans, that's fine.
>> What pisses me off, though, is the way Hal Jordan was written out. That
>whole
>> thing is a fine illustration of why this Marz guy gets accused of being a
>bad
>> writer: changing a character's personality completely and in a totally
>> unbelievable way simply to advance a plot is indeed bad writing. A
>better
>> writer would have found a way to make the switch to a new GL in an
>interesting
>> and exciting manner which was still consistent with the personality of
>Hal
>> Jordan that had been established over a period of 30 or so years.
>
>> People get attached to characters, even though it is fundamentally silly
>to do
>> so. For all the fans of the current GL who think it is silly to get
>upset over
>> Hal Jordan's fate, consider how you might feel if in a couple years a
>plotline
>> is introduced in which Kyle becomes a crack-smoking child molester.
>Change
>> inevitably has to happen, but it doesn't have to occur at the expense of
>all
>> that came before.
>
>
>Get a life man. This whole Hal/Kyle fiasco shit is so dead. People just
>move the fuck on. Hal is dead. Would you like me to say it again? Hal is
>mother fucking dead. Jesus Christ you people go on and on about this shit
>like it was your father who went crazy and started shooting people in the
>local McDonalds. That didn't happen. It was an intresting twist to see
>how people can go crazy when faced with horrible problems, hell that's how
>almost ever piece of good literature ever written in course of human events
>has come about. People going crazy, look at fucking Ernest Hemingway or
>Edgar Allen Poe. You people need to stop. It's a god damn comic book. If
>you don't like what they've done stop reading it, but of course you can't
>do that can you because you're fucking psychos.
And you are the model of tact.
CapNuclear
>Remember, these are only comic books we're talking about here.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Would that only people like Omar and Mike Murphy would get it through their
heads, then the NGs would be a much better place to raise children. Maybe we
could set up an island for people like Murphy and Omar where they can battle
out their little dispute "Lord of the Flies" style. I'd chip in. They'd
probably have their first fight over whether to name the island "Kyle-ania" or
"Hal-land". Then they'd call each other cocksuckers and flame anyone who tried
to calm them down. Speaking from experience, here.
Christopher Petersen
BigBadOmar
{Right. And we don't see that creativity except in an exceptionally
narrow range: his art and his constructs. Nothing creative outside
those.}
Except in his character and convictions. And all those heroic things he does.
{Would that only people like Omar and Mike Murphy would get it through their
heads, then the NGs would be a much better place to raise children. Maybe we
could set up an island for people like Murphy and Omar where they can battle
out their little dispute "Lord of the Flies" style. I'd chip in. They'd
probably have their first fight over whether to name the island "Kyle-ania" or
"Hal-land". Then they'd call each other cocksuckers and flame anyone who tried
to calm them down. Speaking from experience, here. }
Hey, I'm not the person insulting Hal fans. All I'm doing is creating a level
playing field because Marz gets an unfair amount of criticism on things other
writers get away with in spades.
Matthew Herper <mjherper@mit.
Kestrel wrote:
> >And I have no objection to the beautiful women, except that it's not
> >a concept you can take to it's obvious conclusion outside of vertigo.
> >(Horny young guy has ring that can make beautiful women. Suddenly he
> >stays in his room for days. Eventually, he comes out, looking drained,
> >hungry, and with horrible bedhead.)
>
> Actually, Ice caught Guy doing that, IIRC.
Really? You know, I didn't follow the Giffen JLA (although I did like
Guy) or the Warrior series (and the Vuldarian thing is awful).
But I'm liking Guy Gardner more and more. In some ways, perhaps the
most human exploration of what it would mean to have a power ring.
Maybe they should make a Blackhawks-like GLC book, with Guy in the
Blackhawk role...I'd buy it. Hell, I'd write it.
Matt.
Michael...@my-dejanews.com
In article <199806172118...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
capnu...@aol.com (CapNuclear) wrote:
>
> >Remember, these are only comic books we're talking about here.
>
> Thank you.
> Thank you.
> Thank you.
>
> heads, then the NGs would be a much better place to raise children.
I know, it's bad form to pick on the grammer of the poster rather than his
meaning. But there has to some point at which you say,"this is ridiculous".
The above sentence is a very tough read- even putting aside the nonsequitor
about raising children.
I'm going to assume you mean me when you refer to "Mike Murphy". There is
also a Mike Milley posting lately, but I'm the one you seem to have a problem
with. My name is Mike Murray. Nice to see you've been paying attention.
Maybe we
> could set up an island for people like Murphy and Omar where they can battle
> out their little dispute "Lord of the Flies" style.
Other than the fact that LORD OF THE FLIES takes place on an island, I do't
see the analogy. But who cares? You shoehorned in a literary reference, and
that's what's important.
> I'd chip in. They'd
> probably have their first fight over whether to name the island "Kyle-ania" or
> "Hal-land". Then they'd call each other
SNIP
and flame anyone who tried
> to calm them down. Speaking from experience, here.
>
> Christopher Petersen
>
What am I supposed to make of this? As far as I'm concerned you're a liar,
Peterson (or do you prefer "Captain Nuclear"?). Ah... Who cares? The point
is that I don't use that kind of language where women and children are likely
to hear it.
I don't know what your definition of "flame" is, but if you're going to
humiliate yourself with jackassed, foulmouthed posts like this one don't
expect smooth sailing.
As far as I'm concerned, anyone who quotes one of Omar's posts or responds
directly to anything he posts is deliberately encouraging him, and aren't
interested in a discussion of DC comics at all.
A quick check reveals that several posters haven't posted anything on topic
at all for some time.
BigBadOmar
{Maybe they should make a Blackhawks-like GLC book, with Guy in the
Blackhawk role...I'd buy it. Hell, I'd write it.}
I like the first suggestion infinitely better than the second.
CapNuclear
> As far as I'm concerned you're a liar,
>Peterson
What am I lying about? The fact that they're comic books and you're taking them
too seriously? Ugh. I grow tired of this. Look I'm going to do something now
that you should have done a long time ago with GL if you had something better
to do with your time. I'm going to drop this thread, and get on with my life.
I'm sorry I got your last name wrong, and I'm sorry I interrupted your little
fantasy world by pointing out your ridiculous behavior. From now on, I'll have
better sense than to try to discuss comics with people who consider the
characters close personal friends who need defending through insults. I'm
interested in discussing DC, but only in a place where my opinions don't make
me a target of people like yourself who consider yourselves experts on
everything and without fault.
Have a nice life.
Christopher Petersen
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
CapNuclear (capnu...@aol.com) wrote:
: >Remember, these are only comic books we're talking about here.
: Thank you.
: Thank you.
: Thank you.
: Would that only people like Omar and Mike Murphy would get it through their
: heads, then the NGs would be a much better place to raise children.
Geez, hey, it's only a newsgroup.
- Elayne
--
What I mean by deviant: completely lacking in the social skills and
knowledge possessed by most of the rest of humanity... Most of us are
perfectly normal most of the time. We only become jerks and morons on
Usenet, like other decent people. -- Andrew C. Lannen
BigBadOmar
{As far as I'm concerned, anyone who quotes one of Omar's posts or responds
directly to anything he posts is deliberately encouraging him, and aren't
interested in a discussion of DC comics at all.}
Better to call Kyle fans idiots, huh, smarmy fuckwit?
Ed Tang
Czeskleba (czes...@aol.com) wrote:
: Omar wrote:
: >you pathetic liar.
: >good job lying, cocksucker.
: >fucknut
: Maybe you should try a little decaff. You seem to be a little touchy.
: Remember, these are only comic books we're talking about here.
It's probably not java he has to worry about, it's probably the weed he
inhales.
--
Ed Tang
BigBadOmar
{It's probably not java he has to worry about, it's probably the weed he
inhales.}
Or your mom.
Michael...@my-dejanews.com
In article <199806181629...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
That's the one line of the post you're going to respond to?!
Nice subtle job of editing there. It's obvious in context that I was
saying that you lied about the language I used in our first go round.
Considering the fact that you went through the same routine of announcing
your disgust and that you were done with me, then I stumble onto a forced
(very negative) reference to me a couple of days later, I'll take this one
with a grain of salt.
And by the way- you and your filthy, argumentative mouth don't get to take
the moral highground here- you wouldn't have badmouthed me with such a
bizarrely worded and out of context attack in your previous post if you
weren't just trying to start trouble.
MM
Russell "Coconut Daemon" Bailey
> {so obviously, they found someone to write
> it that agreed with the concept. after all, better writers turned them
> down...}
>
>
I think he's saying he liked Jones better. I liked Jones better, too.
> Not really. I've never seen him depicted as shallow except in one page of
> Byrne's WW and in Hitman. But good job lying, cocksucker.
What about JLA?
> Well since it was the real Hal, this would be foolish.
More foolish things have been written (and sold well).
> I, however, think that
> the heroic Hal was not real and the only real one was the one who went crazy
> during ET. My proof? Ah...
>
> {you're certainly correct that a better writer could've come up with a
> dozen other ways to get the change DC wanted without this kind of
> ridiculous characterization,}
>
> Not really since the thing was plotted by the editors.
But a better writer with an advantage Marz didn't have (time) could have made it a
deep tragedy rather than a bunch of fight scenes.
> {but there are so many fans out there who
> can't even tell the difference anyway, i guess DC decided it was once
> again time to pander to the lowest common denominator instead of doing
> what would be best in the long run.}
>
> Sales were up, they didn't drop, four years ago, you tell me what was best in
> the long run.
>
You have a point. And I also wouldn't call that pandering any more than I call
bringing Hal _back_ to boost sales pandering. Same thing really.Russell
Russell "Coconut Daemon" Bailey
BigBadOmar wrote:
In my opinion, better to neither call other fans idiots arbitrarily, and
not to participate in threads where the only activity occuring is insult.
Russell
Matthew Herper <mjherper@mit.
Ed Tang wrote:
> It's probably not java he has to worry about, it's probably the weed he
> inhales.
So now we know that he's one of those types who smokes more than
he can handle and get's paranoid?
He probably gets stoned and goes to conspiracy conventions when
he's not on usenet.
Which explains how Steven Grant knows Omar.
Matt.
eternally
Matthew Herper
steven grant knows omar...? i doubt it.
unless Omar is a running (bad) joke, i don't see
how the two would have anything to do with one another.
more likely, someone is putting you on.
- e.
Matthew Herper <mjherper@mit.
At some point Steven posted something along the lines of "I just
realized -- none of you know who Omar is!"
Some took this to mean that Grant does, therefore supporting the
"Omar is a pro" theory. Not that the statement really means this.
It does, however, invite some people to take the statement this way...
So if Omar is a stoned paranoid crazy from a conspiracy convention which
Grant attended, well, that means he's not neccesarily a pro, right?
(Anyway, I was kidding. I know nothing about Omar's smoking habits.
I'm just kind of making fun of the way Omar get's taken so seriously,
like he's some kind of super-villain. And of course, everybody else
sinks to dumb taunts like "Omar smokes wee-eed" and "Omar has cooties!"
It's all pretty funny.)
Matt.
(For the other time I made a dumb statement on a pro and Omar, see my
(faux) accusation that Waid is Omar. I doubt it, but there is a
Waid/Usenet feud, and it could as easily be "Oh, Mark!" as "O Marz.")
eternally
Matthew Herper
>
> >
> > steven grant knows omar...? i doubt it.
> >
> > unless Omar is a running (bad) joke, i don't see
> > how the two would have anything to do with one another.
> >
> > more likely, someone is putting you on.
> >
> > - e.
>
> At some point Steven posted something along the lines of "I just
> realized -- none of you know who Omar is!"
see, i either took this to mean,
a) none of you know Omar is really Eric Altice, or
b) i'm about to start a really entertaining topic thread where
everyone wonders what the hell i'm talking about when i'm
really only joking.
> sinks to dumb taunts like "Omar smokes wee-eed" and "Omar has cooties!"
but......omar DOES have cooties!!! :D
- e.
Pab Sungenis
In a message about Hal Jordan vs. the New Guy,
czes...@aol.com (Czeskleba) Observed:
CC> For all the fans of the current GL who think it is silly to get upset over
CC> Hal Jordan's fate, consider how you might feel if in a couple years a
CC> plotline is introduced in which Kyle becomes a crack-smoking child
CC> molester.
A number of Kyle fans will admit that ET was a bad story. And many of
us will admit that Marz is a hack writer who should be escorted off the
book before too long.
Yes, Hal Jordan got the bum's rush, but that was then, and we don't need
to bend over backwards to get him back just because of one bad storyline.
If Kyle were written out as you described above, I would be very angry,
and might consider dropping the book. (Hell, I finally dropped a book
after Bill Messner-Loebs mishandled Impulse one time too many.) But it
would not change the fact that the story HAPPENED, and it would not
change the fact that they would have written Kyle out for a reason.
They wrote Hal out because Hal couldn't sell any more. If Kyle degrades
that much, they'll get rid of him.
CC> Change inevitably has to happen, but it doesn't have to occur at the
CC> expense of all that came before.
True, but Change will happen. And as someone who began picking up GREEN
LANTERN again at #0 (after a long hiatus), I liked the new kid, and have
seen some flashes of brilliance in him. (Unfortunately, only one was in
his own book, but still....)
* RM 1.31 3233 * Error reading drive C: Haha! Take THAT, stupid human!
--
Pab Sungenis, Vineland, NJ My opinions! MINE! MINE! MINE!
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| To picture how ridiculous the decision to build Windows 98 around the |
| web browser really is, imagine if everything in your kitchen had to |
| be run through the toaster. |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Illegal to use this address for unsolicited commercial E-Mail: 47 USC
Pab Sungenis
"Matthew Herper <mjherper@mit." <"remove-me>.edu"> babbled:
> (For the other time I made a dumb statement on a pro and Omar, see my
> (faux) accusation that Waid is Omar. I doubt it, but there is a
> Waid/Usenet feud,
If Omar was a character created by Mark Waid, he would be more
interesting than he is. Mark has a knack for characterization, and Omar
is much too one-dimensional.
> and it could as easily be "Oh, Mark!" as "O Marz.")
Has anyone noticed that the only time Omar is semi-coherent is when
defending Kyle Rayner-Green Lantern? :)
* RM 1.31 3233 * "It's a little box that goes zzzzzzt!" -- Kryten
BigBadOmar
A number of Kyle fans will admit that ET was a bad story. And many of
us will admit that Marz is a hack writer who should be escorted off the
book before too long.}
Anyone calling a writer a hack deserves never to read a comic book again.
Czeskleba
>They wrote Hal out because Hal couldn't sell any more. If Kyle degrades
>that much, they'll get rid of him.
>
>
I agree with that. All I was saying was that I wish they had written him out
in a manner that was consistent with the 30 years of previous characterization,
rather than dragging out the tired, boring, "good guy turns into psycho killer"
plot cliche.
BigBadOmar
{I agree with that. All I was saying was that I wish they had written him out
in a manner that was consistent with the 30 years of previous characterization,
rather than dragging out the tired, boring, "good guy turns into psycho killer"
plot cliche.
There wasn't 30 years of characterization, just 8 (since Crisis) and none of
those eight involved Coast City being annihilated.
Hypernrml
Ah, but Hal came through Crisis relatively unscathed (except for that drunk
driving bit . . . anyone becomes totally without fear after enough alcohol), so
those thirty years of stories can still be used to judge his character.
btw: Barry, until JLAY1, did not exist post-Crisis. How then were we to have
judged his character, except by using the thirty years that came before?
--Andrew
Karlabunka!
Captain Atom
Czeskleba wrote:
> I agree with that. All I was saying was that I wish they had written him out
> in a manner that was consistent with the 30 years of previous characterization,
> rather than dragging out the tired, boring, "good guy turns into psycho killer"
> plot cliche.
I found nothing tired or boring about it. It was an incredible read.
--CAP
BigBadOmar
{btw: Barry, until JLAY1, did not exist post-Crisis. How then were we to have
judged his character, except by using the thirty years that came before?}
Barry existed in the legacy of Wally West so there was a great deal with which
to judge him by.
{Ah, but Hal came through Crisis relatively unscathed (except for that drunk
driving bit . . . anyone becomes totally without fear after enough alcohol), so
those thirty years of stories can still be used to judge his character.}
The Hal post-crisis is a different one from pre-crisis so those stories are
ineligible.
Ken Small
Captain Atom yammered...
I found it incredible in the original sense of the word. I gotta agree
with Czeskleba-- not becuase of some sort of loyalty to the character,
but becuase it made for a bad story.
--
-Ken
Magic 8-Ball sez: Cannot predict now
Parallax
Incredible, hmm...incredible=not credible...bingo!
Marz is incredible!
Daniel Henschel
I must be in a very small minority... I thought ET was very good. The
angst on Jordan's face was tragic. I really got the sense that he hated
himself for what he was doing, but just couln't stop. That especially
came through when he dropped his ring, sayng he didn't deserve to wear
it.
Besides, it wasn't exactly a sudden thing. As I've pointed out before,
he was building up to a nervous breakdown for several months before ET.
If he hadn't been wearing a GL ring, he'd probably have gone on a bender
for a while, then come out of it, but a nervous breakdown is much more
devestating when you're wielding the most powerful weapon in the
universe!
I mourn Hal's passing too... but it is in the tradition of the great
tragedies to have a Hero fall. Look at what "Medea" did to Jason.
Aaron Moss
Besides, as they say...
Power corrupts and Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
WmBrackeen
<<As I've pointed out before,
he was building up to a nervous breakdown for several months before ET.>>
Uh....no.
William Brackeen
Hey, you want Hal Jordan and the GLC back, don'tcha? Then get yer butt to
www.glcorps.org and sign the GLC petition!
Captain Atom
Daniel Henschel wrote:
> I must be in a very small minority... I thought ET was very good.
Don't be fooled. You're not in a very small minority. This is a case of
"he who shouts loudest."
ET was spectacular.
--CAPTAIN ATOM
BigBadOmar
{I must be in a very small minority... I thought ET was very good.}
Don't let whining fuckheads get to you. You are in the vast majority of comic
readers. Just not in the majority around here. At least those that open their
traps because they have no life.
Czeskleba
>There wasn't 30 years of characterization, just 8 (since Crisis) and none of
>those eight involved Coast City being annihilated.
Maybe I am misunderstanding how DC uses the crisis. Are you saying EVERY comic
which was published before the crisis is now considered to be non-canonical? I
thought that only those pre-crisis stories which contradict the crisis
continuity are considered non-canonical, while everything else remains
canonical. For example, a silver age story in which the Earth-1 GL visits
Earth-2 and teams up with Alan Scott would be considered not to have occurred,
but a silver age story in which Hal beats up on the Tattooed Man would still be
considered to have happened. Or am I wrong about this?
Czeskleba
>> rather than dragging out the tired, boring, "good guy turns into psycho
>killer"
>> plot cliche.
>
>I found nothing tired or boring about it. It was an incredible read.
>
I guess we disagree, then. Myself, I have seen way too many comic stories in
which a previously "normal" character loses it and turns into a psycho killer.
It's been done hundreds of times before. And it always annoys me when a writer
uses that plot, because in the real world no one just spontaneously becomes a
psycho killer. I know that comic readers have to suspend disbelief regarding
things like flying and time travel, but I don't think a comic writer should
also ask us to suspend disbelief in normal human psychological processes...
Daniel Henschel
William,I'd suggest you go back and re-read the issues before Emrald
Twilight again. Notice the revalation that his ind had been being
tampered with for years, ever since one of his early adventures
off-world. Also notice that he was pursuing a failing relationship, was
trying to maintain a piloting business to get back in touch with his
roots, and was failing at that too. Also notice that he had to absorb
the entire charge of his power battery at once; and since "mere"
lightning can cause brain damage, I don't see why absorbing untold
millions of times that energy wouldn't. Plus, he was facing guilt over
Arisa's premature aging and the mental damage she suffered as a result,
had had two amnesiac episodes fairly recently (once at the beginning of
the current run, and once in JLI), and suffered at least a minor
cuncussion during the battle with Mongul.
His perceived "failure" to protect Coast city wasn't the only thing that
drove him nuts, it was just the last straw.
If you need further proof, look at his attitude and actions during his
last team-up with Ollie. That was a man cruising for a breakdown.
Daniel Henschel
I forgot to mention that he had been lied to by the Guardians about the
reasons they formed the GLC (Ganthet's Tale) and about why the ring had
a weakness to yellow; both of which he found out about during those same
months, so when the Guardians denied him the power to restore Coast
City, it is pretty believable for him to take out his rage and
frustration on the guardians.
Plus, I feel he always knew that what he was doing was wrong, but
couldn't stop himself. The tears running down his face were testament
to that. I think that his own actions were one of the most important
(to him) of the things he wanted to "fix" during Zero-hour.
eternally
Daniel Henschel wrote:
>
> William,I'd suggest you go back and re-read the issues before Emrald
> Twilight again. Notice the revalation that his ind had been being
> tampered with for years, ever since one of his early adventures
> off-world. Also notice that he was pursuing a failing relationship, was
> trying to maintain a piloting business to get back in touch with his
> roots, and was failing at that too. Also notice that he had to absorb
> the entire charge of his power battery at once; and since "mere"
> lightning can cause brain damage, I don't see why absorbing untold
> millions of times that energy wouldn't. Plus, he was facing guilt over
> Arisa's premature aging and the mental damage she suffered as a result,
> had had two amnesiac episodes fairly recently (once at the beginning of
> the current run, and once in JLI), and suffered at least a minor
> cuncussion during the battle with Mongul.
this is a pretty silly argument. all the events you describe are plot
developments that could happen in any characters title, with only the
minor details changing. are we to assume by your logic that ALL
superheroes dealing with life complications and strife from issue to
issue are one tragedy away from a completely different personality?
- e.
eternally
yeah, i would've had more respect for the writing if they just up and
killed Hal with one of those little blurb captions underneath saying,
"sorry, but we had to make room for the new guy. please ignore all
previous continuity involving that Hal character." :)
would've been just as smooth.
- e.
Parallax
Daniel Henschel wrote:
<snip>
> If you need further proof, look at his attitude and actions during his
> last team-up with Ollie. That was a man cruising for a breakdown.
Yeah right, let's take a look at that issue.
Gl #47
p.5, Hal thinking: "I'd have liked to sit up late over coffee with
Pieface and mourn our friends in Coast City."
Notice he didn't say "I'd like to resurrect the dead and recreate
time..."
p.22, Hal and Ollie:
Ollie: "Hey, you okay?"
Hal: "Yeah, just letting go of the past. Hurts a little --
but it feels good, too."
Ollie: "And I was afraid you'd want to talk over old times."
Hal: "There are no old times, pal. This is now."
Oh, yeah, he sounds like breakdown material all right. Maybe you should
reread the book again.
thad a doria
In article <359A92...@hotmail.com>,
*Nobody* is saying that. John Stewart's tragedies are equal or greater,
and he hasn't killed anyone or tried to recreate the universe.
Read the Jones era. You obviously haven't paid any attention to it. Jones
repeatedly characterized Hal as a volatile unstable individual who has
tantrums when things don't go his way. That is not how Jones characterized
John Stewart, who would eventually find a spiritual awakening and inner
peace despite the tragic events in his life.
--
-Thad Doria
"HEYYY!! What that swan be DOIN', hunh?!"
Aaron Moss
On 1 Jul 1998, Czeskleba wrote:
> >> rather than dragging out the tired, boring, "good guy turns into psycho
> >killer"
> >> plot cliche.
> >
> >I found nothing tired or boring about it. It was an incredible read.
> >
> >--CAP
>
> I guess we disagree, then. Myself, I have seen way too many comic stories in
> which a previously "normal" character loses it and turns into a psycho killer.
> It's been done hundreds of times before. And it always annoys me when a writer
> uses that plot, because in the real world no one just spontaneously becomes a
> psycho killer. I know that comic readers have to suspend disbelief regarding
> things like flying and time travel, but I don't think a comic writer should
> also ask us to suspend disbelief in normal human psychological processes...
>
>
And you know how many people who had their entire town destroyed while
having the power to stop it, didn't?
Aaron
eternally
thad a doria wrote:
>
>
>
> Read the Jones era. You obviously haven't paid any attention to it.
the current series, i for some reason managed to read the entire Jones
run without actually paying attention. thank you for the unsolicited
insult, though...
> Jones
> repeatedly characterized Hal as a volatile unstable individual who has
> tantrums when things don't go his way.
well, i guess we're just in disagreement there. should i insult you
back now?
>That is not how Jones characterized
> John Stewart, who would eventually find a spiritual awakening and inner
> peace despite the tragic events in his life.
>
> -Thad Doria
well, we agree on stewart. so what would you have thought if they had
simply made him the new GL...?
- e.
WmBrackeen
<<William,I'd suggest you go back and re-read the issues before Emrald
Twilight again. >>
Read 'em lots, actually.
<<Notice the revalation that his ind had been being
tampered with for years, ever since one of his early adventures
off-world.>>
Well, if you're using this for evidence that he was due for a breakdown, it
doesn't really work, in that, he had just throw off the Ergono's influence and
was "back to normal". Unless you're saying he was a psycho-nutjob *before* his
mind was tampered with, which also doesn't hold up to scrutiny.
<<Also notice that he was pursuing a failing relationship, was
trying to maintain a piloting business to get back in touch with his
roots, and was failing at that too.>>
I just reread GL Annual #2 (3rd series) and there are some interesting plot
threads regarding Hal's love life there. After insisting to Arisia that he's
head over heels in love with Olivia Reynolds he is hypnotized by the female
Bloodlines alien and manages to throw off her influence when she asks "who do
you love?"....because the answer is Carol Ferris. In essence, this was a
"running from commitment" plotline, not a sign of mental instability (unless
you want to consider most of the male population off their rockers<g>). As to
his failing business...this generally goes along with being a non-wealthy
super-hero running your own business. In GL # 103 which I got today (no
spoilers) it seems Kyle is having some career troubles too, is he gonna kill
Jade in her sleep and go after Alan?
<<Also notice that he had to absorb
the entire charge of his power battery at once; and since "mere"
lightning can cause brain damage, I don't see why absorbing untold
millions of times that energy wouldn't.>>
Not sure which instance you're talking about, ED or ET, but in the first his
mental health didn't seem impaired and in the second he was already nuts.
<<Plus, he was facing guilt over
Arisa's premature aging and the mental damage she suffered as a result,>>
By the time of ET, Arisia was feeling much better. Granted, Hal might still
feel some guilt over the situation, but I doubt he'd feel "kill my friends"
bad.
<<had had two amnesiac episodes fairly recently (once at the beginning of
the current run, and once in JLI), and suffered at least a minor
cuncussion during the battle with Mongul.>>
I'm glad you mentioned his battle with Mongul. As far as I'm concerned GL 46
answers ANY questions about Hal's mental health. If there was a time to go
postal...that was it.
<<His perceived "failure" to protect Coast city wasn't the only thing that
drove him nuts, it was just the last straw.
If you need further proof, look at his attitude and actions during his
last team-up with Ollie. That was a man cruising for a breakdown.>>
I beg to differ.
WmBrackeen
<<I forgot to mention that he had been lied to by the Guardians about the
reasons they formed the GLC (Ganthet's Tale) and about why the ring had
a weakness to yellow; both of which he found out about during those same
months, so when the Guardians denied him the power to restore Coast
City, it is pretty believable for him to take out his rage and
frustration on the guardians.>>
Ok, my initial problem with ET is that it's never been adequately explained how
Hal came to the conclusion that the Guardians COULD resurrect Coast City.
They've never been able to raise their own dead, for example. It's just
stupid.
<<Plus, I feel he always knew that what he was doing was wrong, but
couldn't stop himself. The tears running down his face were testament
to that. I think that his own actions were one of the most important
(to him) of the things he wanted to "fix" during Zero-hour.>>
I can't buy Hal's action in ET for the very reason that he COULD have defeated
all those tyro GL's without resorting to bloodshed. That's just not Hal
Jordan. Don't even get me started on ZH.
eternally
Parallax wrote:
>
> Daniel Henschel wrote:
> <snip>
> > If you need further proof, look at his attitude and actions during his
> > last team-up with Ollie. That was a man cruising for a breakdown.
>
> Gl #47
> p.5, Hal thinking: "I'd have liked to sit up late over coffee with
> Pieface and mourn our friends in Coast City."
>
> Notice he didn't say "I'd like to resurrect the dead and recreate
> time..."
>
> p.22, Hal and Ollie:
> Ollie: "Hey, you okay?"
> Hal: "Yeah, just letting go of the past. Hurts a little --
> but it feels good, too."
> Ollie: "And I was afraid you'd want to talk over old times."
> Hal: "There are no old times, pal. This is now."
>
> Oh, yeah, he sounds like breakdown material all right. Maybe you should
> reread the book again.
heh. thanks for saving me the trouble of having to dig out my old
issues to prove these guys wrong. nicely done.
sounds like a pretty well-adjusted cat in that scene, eh...?
- e.
Aaron Moss
On Wed, 1 Jul 1998, eternally wrote:
> Daniel Henschel wrote:
> >
> > William,I'd suggest you go back and re-read the issues before Emrald
> > Twilight again. Notice the revalation that his ind had been being
> > tampered with for years, ever since one of his early adventures
> > off-world. Also notice that he was pursuing a failing relationship, was
> > trying to maintain a piloting business to get back in touch with his
> > roots, and was failing at that too. Also notice that he had to absorb
> > the entire charge of his power battery at once; and since "mere"
> > lightning can cause brain damage, I don't see why absorbing untold
> > millions of times that energy wouldn't. Plus, he was facing guilt over
> > Arisa's premature aging and the mental damage she suffered as a result,
> > had had two amnesiac episodes fairly recently (once at the beginning of
> > the current run, and once in JLI), and suffered at least a minor
> > cuncussion during the battle with Mongul.
>
>
>
> this is a pretty silly argument. all the events you describe are plot
> developments that could happen in any characters title, with only the
> minor details changing. are we to assume by your logic that ALL
> superheroes dealing with life complications and strife from issue to
> issue are one tragedy away from a completely different personality?
>
> - e.
>
>
Uhhmm, because one tragedy is all it takes...
Aaron
Visit my world at http://www.protosource.com/~brotherhead
Daniel Henschel
No, eternally, we are not to assume that all superheroes would crack
under this pressure; but by your logic are we to assume that no
superheroes would?
Every person has a breaking point. Hal reached his. And that is also a
plot development. I don't like it, but that's what happened. Again,
that's the nature of tragedy.
Daniel Henschel
How about (to paraphrase, as I don't have a copy available) "Just try to
tell me what to think now." That sounds like a serious chip on his
shoulder to me.
And refusing to talk about what happened with Ollie sounds like
suppression to me. "There are no old times," doesn't sound like "letting
go of the past," it sounds like danying it. Of course, YMMV.
And maybe if he had had that coffee with Tom (I think he's grown beyond
being called Pieface), or had discussed it with Ollie instead of
suppressing, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
But he didn't.
I keep having to repeat myself, but THIS WAS A TRAGEDY. A Tragedy is a
very old tradition in literature, and to be effective, it has to be a
hero who falls. You aren't supposed to like what happens in Tragedies,
that's why they're called tragedies.
Daniel Henschel
William, Ergono's influence on him was to make him less sure of himself
The implication was that that was what had led him into the social
questioning of the O'neil era. Without that, not to say he was a
nutjob, to use your phrase, but perhaps his natural personality was,
shall we say, less restrained, more judgemental, and prone to anger.
And I was not meaning to suggest that his problems with Carol were a
sign of mental instability, just that they were one more source of
stress. Same thing with his guilt over Arisa. Any of these by
themselves, he'd have gotten over; even all of them together, without
the huge burden of Coast City. Perhaps instead of saying Coast City was
the last straw, I should have said it was the last brick, because it
slammed into him like one.
And, BTW, I was referring to the incident where his own power battery
was shattered while he was trying to protect Itty from an alien armada,
and had to aborb the entire charge at once, not to his entering the main
battery in ED. That time, he suffered no apparant damage, true, but he
wasn't trying to absorb the whole charge, just the most he could
contain. He absorbed much less Emerald Energy in ED than when his
battery cracked, judging by the physical reactions in each instance.
And the physical trauma would be indicitive of the amount of possible
mental trauma.
thad a doria
In article <199807010331...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
WmBrackeen <wmbra...@aol.com> wrote:
><<As I've pointed out before,
>he was building up to a nervous breakdown for several months before ET.>>
>
>Uh....no.
You're right to correct him. He'd been building for *years*.
Or was beating Guy within an inch of his life to get his job back and
accusing John of mind-controlling his ex-girlfriend were the acts of a
rational man? Are you going to blame Ergono?
WmBrackeen
<<How about (to paraphrase, as I don't have a copy available) "Just try to
tell me what to think now." That sounds like a serious chip on his
shoulder to me.>>
Possibly, but it's not necessarily related to the Coast City incident.
WmBrackeen
<<William, Ergono's influence on him was to make him less sure of himself
The implication was that that was what had led him into the social
questioning of the O'neil era. Without that, not to say he was a
nutjob, to use your phrase, but perhaps his natural personality was,
shall we say, less restrained, more judgemental, and prone to anger.>>
But as I said, that hypothesis is not born out in the pre-Ergono stories.
<<And I was not meaning to suggest that his problems with Carol were a
sign of mental instability, just that they were one more source of
stress. Same thing with his guilt over Arisa. Any of these by
themselves, he'd have gotten over; even all of them together, without
the huge burden of Coast City. Perhaps instead of saying Coast City was
the last straw, I should have said it was the last brick, because it
slammed into him like one.>>
The reason I have great difficulty accepting Hal reaction to Coast City is that
he had borne personal tragedy before. In JLA #140-141 he thought he'd
carelessly destroyed an inhabited planet! He didn't crack up, he turned
himself in for judgement. Also, we'd already seen his reaction in GL
#46...after defeating Mongul, his first concern was to HELP people, not to
blame himself. He was not a moper or a brooder and he wasn't a power hungry
character. It just doesn't add up.
<<And, BTW, I was referring to the incident where his own power battery
was shattered while he was trying to protect Itty from an alien armada,
and had to aborb the entire charge at once, not to his entering the main
battery in ED. That time, he suffered no apparant damage, true, but he
wasn't trying to absorb the whole charge, just the most he could
contain. He absorbed much less Emerald Energy in ED than when his
battery cracked, judging by the physical reactions in each instance.
And the physical trauma would be indicitive of the amount of possible
mental trauma.>>
Well, I'm just going to have to agree to disagree with you here. If he could
contain that much energy in the second instance, why would he not be able to in
the first instance? I also don't see it as a source of possible mental trauma.
BigBadOmar
{And it always annoys me when a writer
uses that plot, because in the real world no one just spontaneously becomes a
psycho killer.}
Really? What do real Green Lanterns do in situations like this?
BigBadOmar
{yeah, i would've had more respect for the writing if they just up and
"sorry, but we had to make room for the new guy. please ignore all
previous continuity involving that Hal character." :)
would've been just as smooth.}
Apparently you enjoy reading tripe.
BigBadOmar
{ In JLA #140-141 he thought he'd
carelessly destroyed an inhabited planet! He didn't crack up, he turned
himself in for judgement}
Pre crisis.
{Also, we'd already seen his reaction in GL
#46...after defeating Mongul, his first concern was to HELP people, not to
blame himself. He was not a moper or a brooder and he wasn't a power hungry
character. It just doesn't add up.}
And apparently the shock of it all hadn't sank in as yet.
Czeskleba
>And you know how many people who had their entire town destroyed while
>having the power to stop it, didn't?
>Aaron
>
>
As I have said before, the Holocaust is a real event that is somewhat analogous
to what Hal experienced... and I don't know of any Holocaust survivors who
became psycho killers as a result of living through the Holocaust. Anyone who
thinks Hal's response to the destruction of Coast City is realistic is someone
who has had their conception of real human behavior skewed by reading too many
comics.
Czeskleba
You must have missed part of my original post, or misunderstood it. As I said,
in comics there is a suspension of disbelief about certain things, ie the
existence of super powers, power rings, etc. But within the established
framework, it is assumed that people in comics still should act like people
actually act in the real world. Just because we suspend our disbelief about
the existence of superpowers doesn't mean we should have to suspend disbelief
about people acting in ways that no real person would act.
Czeskleba
>Every person has a breaking point. Hal reached his. And that is also a
>plot development. I don't like it, but that's what happened. Again,
>that's the nature of tragedy.
I do not dispute that the destruction of Coast City could realistically have
caused Hal to have a breakdown. What I find unrealistic is that the breakdown
would result in him becoming a deranged killer. A person who has not been a
killer for 30 years does not become a killer if they have a nervous breakdown.
It would have been more realistic for Hal to kill himself...
Hypernrml
>Don't be fooled. You're not in a very small minority. This is a case of
>"he who shouts loudest."
>
>ET was spectacular.
I'm not sure I'd go as far as spectacular, but only because the middle section
seemed a little too gratuitous in its violence. The first part was a great
study of Hal's pre-GL past, a past I had no idea existed. The third was
chilling in its depiction of a man who had crossed the line and saw no way
back. Entertaining, yes. Great, possibly. But the TPB does not have a spot
on the shelf with Watchmen, DKR, KC, Marvels, and The Rocketeer: Cliff's New
York Adventure.
--Andrew
Karlabunka!
Parallax
thad a doria wrote:
> Or was beating Guy within an inch of his life to get his job back and
> accusing John of mind-controlling his ex-girlfriend were the acts of a
> rational man? Are you going to blame Ergono?
An inch of his life?!? Who's the irrational one here?
JohannaLD
From: czes...@aol.com (Czeskleba)
>the Holocaust is a real event that is somewhat analogous
>to what Hal experienced...
Except I don't think any particular relative of a Holocaust
victim had the ability to make all the Nazis disappear
instantly just by wishing for it.
See, that's the part at which all these comparisons break
down -- the magic ring. NONE of us know what it would be
like to have anything we wish for come true. We can only
extrapolate from our experiences otherwise -- and in my
personal opinion, I don't find it surprising that ONE of the
many costumed heroes given such power and responsibility
found it too much for him. Heck, I'm surprised the rate of
breakdown among that group is so low.
>Anyone who thinks Hal's response to the destruction of
>Coast City is realistic is someone who has had their
>conception of real human behavior skewed by reading too
>many comics.
Sigh. And this discussion was going so well.
-- Johanna
http://members.aol.com/johannald
JohannaLD
From: wmbra...@aol.com (WmBrackeen)
>it's never been adequately explained how
>Hal came to the conclusion that the Guardians COULD
>resurrect Coast City.
>They've never been able to raise their own dead, for example.
What about Hal himself? I'm only vaguely remembering this
story, but there's one where he's declared dead in the Pol
Manning era and then the Guardians manage to bring him back.
>I can't buy Hal's action in ET for the very reason that he
>COULD have defeated all those tyro GL's without resorting
>to bloodshed.
We are talking about a guy who decided that the best way to
solve his problems with Guy and take HIS sector back was to
spend an issue beating him up. Hal LIKED fighting.
-- Johanna
http://members.aol.com/johannald
JohannaLD
>From: czes...@aol.com (Czeskleba)
>A person who has not been a
>killer for 30 years does not become a killer if they have a
>nervous breakdown
In one of his earliest appearances in the Archives, Hal
thinks nothing of creating and then destroying a sentient
being (the Chiller Diller) just because he's too chicken to
say "no" to Carol Ferris when she proposes.
(This is a great story to read nowadays, because it's just
wacky.)
-- Johanna
http://members.aol.com/johannald
thad a doria
In article <359AC1...@hotmail.com>,
eternally <eter...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>thad a doria wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Read the Jones era. You obviously haven't paid any attention to it.
>that's right, even though i have a complete run of GL from way before
>the current series, i for some reason managed to read the entire Jones
>run without actually paying attention. thank you for the unsolicited
>insult, though...
>
>
>> Jones
>> repeatedly characterized Hal as a volatile unstable individual who has
>> tantrums when things don't go his way.
>
>well, i guess we're just in disagreement there. should i insult you
>back now?
>
Oh, lighten up Francis ;)
>
>>That is not how Jones characterized
>> John Stewart, who would eventually find a spiritual awakening and inner
>> peace despite the tragic events in his life.
>>
>> -Thad Doria
>
>well, we agree on stewart. so what would you have thought if they had
>simply made him the new GL...?
For one, thing, they did that in the 80's. Though I do feel that John is
the greatest GL of all--certainly the most complex.
Actually, I don't understand why DC couldn't have kept John at Guardian
status. He'd be a much better mentor than Ganthet.
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
WmBrackeen (wmbra...@aol.com) wrote:
: The reason I have great difficulty accepting Hal reaction to Coast City is that
: he had borne personal tragedy before.
The reason I had trouble with the story is that there was no logical
buildup to it. This was partly because Gerry Jones had not intended on
taking the character and the story in the direction where editorial wanted
to go-- and it shows.
- Elayne
--
What I mean by deviant: completely lacking in the social skills and
knowledge possessed by most of the rest of humanity... Most of us are
perfectly normal most of the time. We only become jerks and morons on
Usenet, like other decent people. -- Andrew C. Lannen
thad a doria
In article <359ACD...@hotmail.com>,
Nobody here has explained his irrational and violent outbursts against
John and Guy yet, however.
thad a doria
Other heroes had to restrain Hal. Does that sound like a man who doesn't
lose control?
And on no evidence he accuses his good friend John of mentally raping a
woman, for no better reason than he's jealous. And tries to fight him.
Edward Mathews
eternally (eter...@hotmail.com) wrote:
: Daniel Henschel wrote:
: >
: > William,I'd suggest you go back and re-read the issues before Emrald
: > Twilight again. Notice the revalation that his ind had been being
: > tampered with for years, ever since one of his early adventures
: > off-world. Also notice that he was pursuing a failing relationship, was
: > trying to maintain a piloting business to get back in touch with his
: > roots, and was failing at that too. Also notice that he had to absorb
: > the entire charge of his power battery at once; and since "mere"
: > lightning can cause brain damage, I don't see why absorbing untold
: > millions of times that energy wouldn't. Plus, he was facing guilt over
: > Arisa's premature aging and the mental damage she suffered as a result,
: > had had two amnesiac episodes fairly recently (once at the beginning of
: > the current run, and once in JLI), and suffered at least a minor
: > cuncussion during the battle with Mongul.
: this is a pretty silly argument. all the events you describe are plot
: developments that could happen in any characters title, with only the
: minor details changing. are we to assume by your logic that ALL
: superheroes dealing with life complications and strife from issue to
: issue are one tragedy away from a completely different personality?
Bruce Wayne.
Ed (yep) Mathews
*****
**-----
* ---
-
-------------------------------------------------------------------
http://pages.nyu.edu/~em11
"I'd like to see Nat and Boris take on the roles of those idiot kids who
were hanging around the Super Friends, but I don't think Grant sees it. If
I were writing JLA, they'd become the new mascots."- christopher j. priest
Edward Mathews
eternally (eter...@hotmail.com) wrote:
: Parallax wrote:
: > Daniel Henschel wrote:
: > <snip>
: > > If you need further proof, look at his attitude and actions during his
: > > last team-up with Ollie. That was a man cruising for a breakdown.
: > Yeah right, let's take a look at that issue.
: > Gl #47
: > p.5, Hal thinking: "I'd have liked to sit up late over coffee with
: > Pieface and mourn our friends in Coast City."
: > Notice he didn't say "I'd like to resurrect the dead and recreate
: > time..."
: > p.22, Hal and Ollie:
: > Ollie: "Hey, you okay?"
: > Hal: "Yeah, just letting go of the past. Hurts a little --
: > but it feels good, too."
: > Ollie: "And I was afraid you'd want to talk over old times."
: > Hal: "There are no old times, pal. This is now."
: > Oh, yeah, he sounds like breakdown material all right. Maybe you should
: > reread the book again.
: heh. thanks for saving me the trouble of having to dig out my old
: issues to prove these guys wrong. nicely done.
: sounds like a pretty well-adjusted cat in that scene, eh...?
Sounds like level-12 denial. You think that this reaction was rational?
7 million dead and he's going for a latte with Ollie? Whatever.
Ed (it took John Stewart years to get over Xanshi) Mathews
WmBrackeen
<<Or was beating Guy within an inch of his life to get his job back and
accusing John of mind-controlling his ex-girlfriend were the acts of a
rational man? Are you going to blame Ergono?>>
A) Guy wanted the fight, not Hal.
B) The second was a combination of two factors, one, that John's behavior up to
that point had been something less than completely rational, and two, Hal's
vanity (which is not a good trait, but doesn't make you insane or about to go
around the bend).
WmBrackeen
<<Other heroes had to restrain Hal.>>
No. They didn't. You might want to reread that one.
WmBrackeen
<<What about Hal himself? I'm only vaguely remembering this
story, but there's one where he's declared dead in the Pol
Manning era and then the Guardians manage to bring him back.>>
Hmm, never read that one. Was he actually dead, just mostly dead, or just
"declared" dead?
<<We are talking about a guy who decided that the best way to
solve his problems with Guy and take HIS sector back was to
spend an issue beating him up. Hal LIKED fighting. >>
We have danced this dance before.<g> Once again, it was GUY who wanted the
fight, not Hal. Hal tried to talk Guy out of it. I'm not going to deny that
Hal took a good deal of satisfaction in defeating Guy, a braggart who had
insisted that he was superior to Hal in all ways and had been a great source of
aggravation to him, but this is hardly evidence that Hal was sadistic or prone
to violent outbursts.
WmBrackeen
<<The reason I had trouble with the story is that there was no logical
buildup to it. This was partly because Gerry Jones had not intended on
taking the character and the story in the direction where editorial wanted
to go-- and it shows.>>
EXACTLY!
JohannaLD
From: wmbra...@aol.com (WmBrackeen)
><<What about Hal himself? I'm only vaguely remembering this
>story, but there's one where he's declared dead in the Pol
>Manning era and then the Guardians manage to bring him back.>>
>
>Hmm, never read that one. Was he actually dead, just mostly dead, or just
>"declared" dead?
Geez, this is comics, how you distinguish? At the end of one
issue, he was declared dead by advanced technology. In the
next one, turns out they just made a mistake (which was pretty
lame, if you ask me).
But I forgot the best example of all: Driq, the zombie GL whose
ring wouldn't LET him die. Remember him? Funny but creepy.
><<We are talking about a guy who decided that the best way to
>solve his problems with Guy and take HIS sector back was to
>spend an issue beating him up. Hal LIKED fighting. >>
>
>Once again, it was GUY who wanted the
>fight, not Hal. Hal tried to talk Guy out of it.
Yet he beat him to a pulp. Yet he didn't try to find a better
way. Not very mature.
-- Johanna
http://members.aol.com/johannald
WmBrackeen
<<Geez, this is comics, how you distinguish?>>
That was sort of the point of the question.<g>
<<At the end of one
issue, he was declared dead by advanced technology. In the
next one, turns out they just made a mistake (which was pretty
lame, if you ask me). >>
Lame yes....actually dead, no.<g>
<<But I forgot the best example of all: Driq, the zombie GL whose
ring wouldn't LET him die. Remember him? Funny but creepy.>>
Driq is an excellent example. His body died, but the power ring would not let
his soul leave his body...until the Central Battery exploded and he ring
shorted out. The green power couldn't restore *actual* life to him.
<<Yet he beat him to a pulp. Yet he didn't try to find a better
way. Not very mature. >>
However, Guy is the one who set the stakes. Fighting was not Hal's idea and in
fact, he thought it was ridiculous. And, to be fair, he did let Guy goad him
into it, but the fight was not what Hal wanted.