return to glory
Simon John Brown
OK, maybe the heading is a bit ostentacious, but anyway...
Hows this for an annual crossover thingy...
The Hawk-God returns to the mortal plane and is split into Carter, Sheira
and the bastardised thingy that Bill made. This thingy then merges with
another of these odd Hawk things (Truman's or something), and Hawk lore
splits time, leaving only Katar and Shayera in the modern age.
Sensing all the time disruption, Monarch harnesses the time stream, and
gets in a blue with Extant. Extant destroys most of Monarch's costume,
but Monarch manages to time-jump back to when Waverider first appears. He
finds Hawk just before Dove dies and stops Hawk from killing the original
Monarch. Cameron-Monarch kills Hank-Monarch and takes the Monarch suit.
This way, Cameron Adam still becomes Monarch, the real Hawk & Dove get to
be active, and Monarch can still be the major DCU villian they wanted..
OK, in 2 paragraphs I've fixed Hawkman, Hawk & Dove, Captain Atom and
Monarch.
Lets see DC do it better.
Simon
(You should hear my other ideas for getting back parallel Earths and the JSA)
Doctor Obvious
Simon John Brown wrote:
>
> OK, maybe the heading is a bit ostentacious, but anyway...
>
> Hows this for an annual crossover thingy...
>
> The Hawk-God returns to the mortal plane and is split into Carter, Sheira
> and the bastardised thingy that Bill made. This thingy then merges with
> another of these odd Hawk things (Truman's or something), and Hawk lore
> splits time, leaving only Katar and Shayera in the modern age.
>
And what hapens to the OTHER time stream created?
> Sensing all the time disruption, Monarch harnesses the time stream, and
> gets in a blue with Extant. Extant destroys most of Monarch's costume,
> but Monarch manages to time-jump back to when Waverider first appears. He
> finds Hawk just before Dove dies and stops Hawk from killing the original
> Monarch. Cameron-Monarch kills Hank-Monarch and takes the Monarch suit.
> This way, Cameron Adam still becomes Monarch, the real Hawk & Dove get to
> be active, and Monarch can still be the major DCU villian they wanted..
>
> OK, in 2 paragraphs I've fixed Hawkman, Hawk & Dove, Captain Atom and
> Monarch.
>
Not being familiar enough with all of this stuff, it wouldn't be fair
for me to comment on this.
> Lets see DC do it better.
>
> Simon
>
> (You should hear my other ideas for getting back parallel Earths and the JSA)
WHY is everyone so seemingly eager for DC to go back to the multiple
Earths and such?! Or is it just that those who like that sort of thing
have gravitated to racdu? Everyone I talk to outside of the group (you
know, that "real world" thingy out there) thoroughly enjoys the fact the
DC has one single universe.
Doc
--
Dr. Obvious - doc...@earthlink.net
Professional Adventurer - The Superlative 7
http://home.earthlink.net/~docobv
Bala Menon
Conduit <con...@rocketmail.com> wrote in article
<347e98f1...@news.iinet.net.au>...
> I really disagree with Multipule earths comng back and doubt they ever
> will. Dc spent to much time after the crisis trying to clear it up and
> to go back would just say. We have worked ten years for nothing. I
> really think that DC has done a great job considering the amazing
> task that they set out to achive.
Unfortunately, DC's not being particularly consistent about it,
seeing that every one of the Sovereigns come from a separate
alternate Earth in the DCU. Not to mention the fact that bringing
Access into continuity emphasizes the existence of at least two
alternate Universes, the Marvelverse and the Amalgamverse.
The Multiversal barriers are already leaking ...
BTW ... amazing task ? How does wiping out all their old
stories count as amazing ? The post-Crisis DCU's far more
inconsistent than the pre-Crisis one ever was.
--
Bala Menon (b.m...@worldnet.att.net)
Conduit
>> The Hawk-God returns to the mortal plane and is split into Carter, Sheira
>> and the bastardised thingy that Bill made. This thingy then merges with
>> another of these odd Hawk things (Truman's or something), and Hawk lore
>> splits time, leaving only Katar and Shayera in the modern age.
>> Sensing all the time disruption, Monarch harnesses the time stream, and
>> gets in a blue with Extant. Extant destroys most of Monarch's costume,
>> but Monarch manages to time-jump back to when Waverider first appears. He
>> finds Hawk just before Dove dies and stops Hawk from killing the original
>> Monarch. Cameron-Monarch kills Hank-Monarch and takes the Monarch suit.
>> This way, Cameron Adam still becomes Monarch, the real Hawk & Dove get to
>> be active, and Monarch can still be the major DCU villian they wanted..
>> Simon
>> (You should hear my other ideas for getting back parallel Earths and the JSA)
>
I have to say this does sound pretty good. Very few holes in it and
the Hawkpart sounds great.
I am not so sure about the Hawk and Dove Spin I thought hank should
have always been Monarch. Making Captain Atom into Monarch was just a
way of fixing what had been originally planned for the Armageddon
series where Atom was going to be Monarch from the start but then they
backed out.
Jim Smith
Bala Menon wrote:
> Unfortunately, DC's not being particularly consistent about it,
> seeing that every one of the Sovereigns come from a separate
> alternate Earth in the DCU.
Not exactly the same thing, is it? Do the Sovereigns come from a
duplicate of Earth? Does their history reflect our own?
That's the main thing DC was trying to eliminate, I thought--a
multiverse filled with mostly alternate *Earths*. Near as I can tell,
the Sovereign Seven actually come from a *real* other universe (as the
parasites from "Bloodlines" did), as different from the standard DC
universe as Earth is from Krypton.
Not to mention the fact that bringing
> Access into continuity emphasizes the existence of at least two
> alternate Universes, the Marvelverse and the Amalgamverse.
Now, that's *hardly* the same thing, at least IMO. I think there's a
big difference between multiple DC Earths and one DC Earth, one Marvel
Earth, and one Amalgam Earth on the side.
In any case, I don't think DC ever said it had managed to retcon all
other publishers out of existance in 1986 (this isn't the WWF). It just
pruned it's *own* multiverse.
Acknowledging Marvel, Amalgam, and Image is just acknowledging the
larger *omniverse*, if you'll accept the term.
> BTW ... amazing task ? How does wiping out all their old
> stories count as amazing ?
You can't wipe out a story. All you can do is stop referring to it or
stop reading it.
Once someone wrote a lengthy letter to BATMAN explaining the numerous
"errors" made in #0, citing numeroues Silver Age stories. Obviously,
the Anti-Monitor never got this guy's stash.
I consider Moore's SUPERMAN #423 and ACTION #583 to be *the* real final
fate of the pre-Crisis Superman. You say it was an imaginary story
about a retconned continuity and never happened? Bite me. You *can't
wipe out a story*.
The post-Crisis DCU's far more
> inconsistent than the pre-Crisis one ever was.
Partially because they started with one and changed to another in
mid-stream. DC reboots Superman, has him meet Hawkman a few times,
and--oops!--forgot to reboot Hawkman. None of this would be a problem
in any company that's rebooted its line...except one that started with a
multiverse and switched to a universe. (After all, how many times has
the VH1 Turok met the VH2 X-O Manowar?)
Bala Menon
Jim Smith <jams...@risc.usi.edu> wrote in article
<3477D3...@risc.usi.edu>...
> Bala Menon wrote:
>
> > Unfortunately, DC's not being particularly consistent about it,
> > seeing that every one of the Sovereigns come from a separate
> > alternate Earth in the DCU.
>
> Not exactly the same thing, is it? Do the Sovereigns come from a
> duplicate of Earth? Does their history reflect our own?
Quite a bit, yes. Culture, patterns, even language, IIRC.
They just diverged at different (earlier) points, that's all.
> That's the main thing DC was trying to eliminate, I thought--a
> multiverse filled with mostly alternate *Earths*. Near as I can
> tell, the Sovereign Seven actually come from a *real* other
> universe (as the parasites from "Bloodlines" did), as different
> from the standard DC universe as Earth is from Krypton.
The Sovereigns are from Earth, not different planets in another
Universe. So you still wind up with multiple Earths (albeit
Earths differing far more from the current one than Earth-2
differed from Earth-1). If DC was trying to keep that element
out, they're not succeeding that well.
> Not to mention the fact that bringing
> > Access into continuity emphasizes the existence of at least two
> > alternate Universes, the Marvelverse and the Amalgamverse.
>
> Now, that's *hardly* the same thing, at least IMO. I think there's
> a big difference between multiple DC Earths and one DC Earth,
> one Marvel Earth, and one Amalgam Earth on the side.
Arguable, since DC was trying to state that there was only one
Universe now, and that the Multiverse no longer existed.
But I'm willing to let this pass.
> You can't wipe out a story. All you can do is stop referring to it or
> stop reading it.
Accepted. Perhaps I should have said "wiped it out of the current
timeline".
> Once someone wrote a lengthy letter to BATMAN explaining the
> numerous "errors" made in #0, citing numeroues Silver Age stories.
> Obviously, the Anti-Monitor never got this guy's stash.
Cute :) I never saw this letter, but I like the idea :)
> I consider Moore's SUPERMAN #423 and ACTION #583 to be
> *the* real final fate of the pre-Crisis Superman. You say it was
> an imaginary story about a retconned continuity and never
> happened? Bite me. You *can't wipe out a story*.
Umm, no. I never said that. And for what it's worth, I agree with
your statement anyway. Perhaps you're referring to DC's argument
about the pre-Crisis reality.
> The post-Crisis DCU's far more
> > inconsistent than the pre-Crisis one ever was.
>
> Partially because they started with one and changed to another in
> mid-stream. DC reboots Superman, has him meet Hawkman
> a few times, and--oops!--forgot to reboot Hawkman. None of this
> would be a problem in any company that's rebooted its line...
> except one that started with a multiverse and switched to a
> universe.
Even that wouldn't be a problem if you decided to reboot all your titles
simultaneously. The problem comes when you reboot them one at
a time, letting the other titles run along the old timeline while the
rebooted ones use the new timeline. There's also the matter of
picking and choosing what history to retain in the new timeline,
which hasn't been done too consistently.
> (After all, how many times has the VH1 Turok met the
> VH2 X-O Manowar?)
Well, the VH-1 Solar's met the VH-2 Solar, but he's really an
exception. But as far as Turok goes ... the Lost Land exists
outside time and Space, doesn't it ? Potential, there ...
--
Bala Menon (b.m...@worldnet.att.net)
Conduit
.
>
>BTW ... amazing task ? How does wiping out all their old
>inconsistent than the pre-Crisis one ever was.
I was refering to the fact that they were able to reboot many of there
core characters while still remaining faithful to most of the origins.
DC basically reshaped there comics within a year. Dispite all the crap
they recieve regarding the Crisis, I dont think anyone else could have
done a better job.
Everyone needs to clean house every now and again
Jim Smith
Bala Menon wrote:
>
> Jim Smith <jams...@risc.usi.edu> wrote in article
> <3477D3...@risc.usi.edu>...
> > Bala Menon wrote:
> > Once someone wrote a lengthy letter to BATMAN explaining the
> > numerous "errors" made in #0, citing numeroues Silver Age stories.
> > Obviously, the Anti-Monitor never got this guy's stash.
>
> Cute :) I never saw this letter, but I like the idea :)
I got the impression that the letter writer wasn't joking around--he
seriously didn't know that Batman had been retconned in such a way that
Thomas Wayne hadn't been the first Batman, and was trying to help out.
> > I consider Moore's SUPERMAN #423 and ACTION #583 to be
> > *the* real final fate of the pre-Crisis Superman. You say it was
> > an imaginary story about a retconned continuity and never
> > happened? Bite me. You *can't wipe out a story*.
>
> Umm, no. I never said that.
I didn't say you did. I should have said "Someone tells me..."
And for what it's worth, I agree with
> your statement anyway. Perhaps you're referring to DC's argument
> about the pre-Crisis reality.
What I'm referring to is people who would say that rebooting various DC
stories somehow affects the preboot stories, and thus the reboots were a
mistake. The existence of the post-Byrne Supes hasn't affected my
enjoyment of my paltry pre-Crisis Supes collection. Just as I can still
enjoy vintage Warner Bros. cartoons while they pump out their current
tripe, like Tiny Toons and "Space Jam". The fact Bugs Bunny has
recently been relegated to an authority figure at (ugh) Acme
Looniversity and has to beg basketball players for help doesn't mean
he's not retroactively cracking me up when I turn on a Turner network.
Outlander
> >BTW ... amazing task ? How does wiping out all their old
> >stories count as amazing ? The post-Crisis DCU's far more
> >inconsistent than the pre-Crisis one ever was.
I agree with this. Prior to the crisis there was at least an attempt to
follow continuity and to fix inconsistancy with it. Roy Thomas, for
example, did some great work fixing up DC history. Now, no one seems to
care. It's very hard to follow.
Outlander
MLeon99
>The Sovereigns are from Earth, not different planets in another
>Universe. So you still wind up with multiple Earths (albeit
>Earths differing far more from the current one than Earth-2
>differed from Earth-1). If DC was trying to keep that element
>out, they're not succeeding that well.
Well, S7 isn't a good example because it's Chris Claremont's book. Even though
it's set in the DCU, he still owns the characters, it breaks all the rules
right there. DC was hot to get Claremont, so they played ball with him and let
him do what he wanted. Maybe he even put that stipulation in there
intentionally knowing it really goes against the grain with DC, but if they'd
let him do it, they were the ones to publish S7, a way of testing the waters,
so to speak. After all, he had just come of off the X-Men and all the rules
and regulations imposed on him at Marvel. I don't think a lesser-name writer
would have been able to get that one to fly past DC editorial.
-- Mike L.