Twilight of the SuperHeroes/Kingdom Come
OneMonk909
Twilight of the Superheroes, i was wondering what everyone thougt of the
similarities between it and Kingdom Come. Apparantly, Mark Waid was aware of
Moore's proposal when he came up with KC. As for myself, I think Twilight was
a better idea, if not only because it was such a farther-reaching concept,
spread out over 12 issues (and also to be a crossover with other comic titles).
But, it's really a moot point since it was never done. I always thought Moore
would one day return to DC (I really think he will someday, I mean the past is
the past, right?) and do Twilight, but it would be seen as a Kingdom come
rip-off if he did. But his ideas were really good, the whold Ragnarok concept,
and I still hope to see the day when he does a "Watchmen" type thing with the
DCU.
Prestorjon
Moore's proposal when he came up with KC.>>
Waid didn't come up with KC. The concept was Alex Ross's, although i think
that Waid did the lions share of the plotting.
-----------------
He had been our Destroyer, the doer of things
We dreamed of doing but could not bring ourselves to do,
The fears of years, like a biting whip,
Had cut deep bloody grooves
Across our backs.
-Etheridge Knight
Mikel Midnight
(OneMonk909) wrote:
> For those of you who know about Alan Moore's proposed 1987 DC maxi-series
> Twilight of the Superheroes, i was wondering what everyone thougt of the
> similarities between it and Kingdom Come. Apparantly, Mark Waid was aware of
> Moore's proposal when he came up with KC.
Apparently bot, in fact.
Moreover ... someone asks this question on racdcu every four months or so.
And you know what? I absolutely don't get it. I read both, and the only
similarities ... the dystopian future of which superheroes are a major
part, and the climax of a Superman/Captain Marvel conflict ... have
appeared *so* many other places that I don't see any reason to believe one
of these stories was lifted from the other.
What I also don't understand is why more folks don't mention _Armageddon
2001_ which plainly _does_ seem lifted from Twilight, though.
--
_______________________________________________________________________________
"She always had a terrific sense of humor" Mikel Midnight
(Valerie Solonas, as described by her mother)
blak...@best.com
__________________________________________________http://www.best.com/~blaklion
Todd VerBeek
>For those of you who know about Alan Moore's proposed 1987 DC maxi-series
>Twilight of the Superheroes, i was wondering what everyone thougt of the
>similarities between it and Kingdom Come.
I think that any similarities are the almost-inevitable consequence of
writing a story of this kind in this genre. For more opinions, check
DejaNews, as this topic has been discussed at length before.
Cheers, Todd
John D. Bullough, Watervliet Facility
I have a question about Moore's Twilight proposal and Gil Kane's
Distant Fires one-shot. (I did look in Dejanews and did not find
an answer.) Does anyone know when Gil Kane came up with the idea
for the Distant Fires story? Somehow, I am suspicious that it was
before wither Kingdom Come or Moore's Twilight. But I'd like to
know. Has DC done a reprinting of this book at all with the correct
credits acknowledging Gil Kane for coming up with the plot?
John B.
The Crooked Man
the Phantom Lady's bar and the Flash's Rogue's gallery bar seem sort of
similar. I think that Chameleon Boy's fate in both stories was very
similar. Batman dropping out of sight and re-emerging to challenge the
arrogance of the super-humans... there's a couple in there.
Mikel Midnight wrote:
> In article <19981017224801...@ng23.aol.com>,
> onemo...@aol.com
> (OneMonk909) wrote:
>
> > For those of you who know about Alan Moore's proposed 1987 DC
> maxi-series
> > Twilight of the Superheroes, i was wondering what everyone thougt of
> the
> > similarities between it and Kingdom Come. Apparantly, Mark Waid was
> aware of
> > Moore's proposal when he came up with KC.
>
> Apparently bot, in fact.
>
> Moreover ... someone asks this question on racdcu every four months or
> so.
> And you know what? I absolutely don't get it. I read both, and the
> only
> similarities ... the dystopian future of which superheroes are a major
>
> part, and the climax of a Superman/Captain Marvel conflict ... have
> appeared *so* many other places that I don't see any reason to believe
> one
> of these stories was lifted from the other.
>
> What I also don't understand is why more folks don't mention
> _Armageddon
> 2001_ which plainly _does_ seem lifted from Twilight, though.
>
> --
> __
> ____________________________________________________________________________
>
> "She always had a terrific sense of humor" Mikel
> Midnight
> (Valerie Solonas, as described by her mother)
> blak...@best.com
> _________________
> ________________________________http://www.best.com/~blaklion
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
: For those of you who know about Alan Moore's proposed 1987 DC maxi-series
: Twilight of the Superheroes, i was wondering what everyone thougt of the
: similarities between it and Kingdom Come. Apparantly, Mark Waid was aware of
: Moore's proposal when he came up with KC.
the KC script and was satisfied, as was Ross (as, I believe, was Moore),
that nobody was stepping on anyone's toes.
The themes espoused in both Moore's proposal and KINGDOM COME are very
familiar themes to which good superhero writers and artists turn time nad
again. Just because there's a thematic similarity doesn't mean one
treatment is ripping off another.
- Elayne
--
Girls, girls. You're both pretty! Now take it to email, please.
- Chris Pierson <cpie...@tiac.net>
commenting on a Usenet flamewar
("I stole it from Homicide anyway")
fette...@my-dejanews.com
onemo...@aol.com (OneMonk909) wrote:
> For those of you who know about Alan Moore's proposed 1987 DC maxi-series
> Twilight of the Superheroes, i was wondering what everyone thougt of the
> similarities between it and Kingdom Come. Apparantly, Mark Waid was aware of
> Moore's proposal when he came up with KC.
<snip>
Actually, I believe Alex Ross came up with the majority of the story on his
own, and then Waid fleshed it out and scripted it (and did a darn good job).
Now, whether Waid's "fleshing out" included borrowing ideas from Twilight,
who knows? Personally, if he did, I say good! Moore's a bum, anyway.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
The Great and Powerful Danny Sichel
> What I also don't understand is why more folks don't mention _Armageddon
> 2001_ which plainly _does_ seem lifted from Twilight, though.
_Kingdom Come_ was good. _Armageddon 2001_ was not.
Simple.
Ranma Al'Thor
: For those of you who know about Alan Moore's proposed 1987 DC maxi-series
: Twilight of the Superheroes, i was wondering what everyone thougt of the
: similarities between it and Kingdom Come. Apparantly, Mark Waid was aware of
: a better idea, if not only because it was such a farther-reaching concept,
: spread out over 12 issues (and also to be a crossover with other comic titles).
: But, it's really a moot point since it was never done. I always thought Moore
I don't. Having read it, Moore essentially had to twist and bend the
behavior of the characters into knots in order to get it to work.
Virtually none of the characters struck me as acting in ways I could
believe; the ending was poor (Let's cripple Earth's defenses against all
the hostile alien races by wiping out the metahumans; oh yes, the
Weaponers of Qward will keep their promises; yeah, good idea, Batman); and
it was simply too depressing. Kingdom Come could be depressing at times,
but it had an upbeat ending and the character behavior was logical in its
extrapolations, while the whole 'house of X' set up in Moore's proposal
struck me as artifical and implausible.
It was a pile of <censored>. Biggest pile of garbage I've ever seen Moore
create; DC was right to file it in File 13, so to speak.
--
John Walter Biles : MA-History, Ph.D Wannabe at U. Kansas
ra...@falcon.cc.ukans.edu
rh...@tass.org http://www.tass.org/~rhea/falcon.html
rh...@maison-otaku.net http://www.maison-otaku.net/~rhea/
"I would not mind you in my head, Lews Therin said, sounding almost
sane, "if you were not so clearly mad."
Crisis of Infinite Coyles
>
> For those of you who know about Alan Moore's proposed 1987 DC maxi-series
> Twilight of the Superheroes, i was wondering what everyone thougt of the
> similarities between it and Kingdom Come. Apparantly, Mark Waid was aware of
> Moore's proposal when he came up with KC. As for myself, I think Twilight was
> a better idea, if not only because it was such a farther-reaching concept,
> spread out over 12 issues (and also to be a crossover with other comic titles).
> But, it's really a moot point since it was never done. I always thought Moore
> the past, right?) and do Twilight, but it would be seen as a Kingdom come
> rip-off if he did. But his ideas were really good, the whold Ragnarok concept,
> and I still hope to see the day when he does a "Watchmen" type thing with the
I defense of Alex Ross and Mark Waid, Kingdom Come and Twilight of the
Heroes are about two very different things.
KC is about the apocalypse of the DC superheroes. Norman McCay's renewal
of faith, and Ross' staggering artisitc ability.
Twilight of the Heroes is about John Constantine's ego.
Period.
--Dan
Eric L Bailey
wrote:
>OneMonk909 (onemo...@aol.com) wrote:
>: For those of you who know about Alan Moore's proposed 1987 DC maxi-series
>: Twilight of the Superheroes, i was wondering what everyone thougt of the
>: similarities between it and Kingdom Come. Apparantly, Mark Waid was aware of
>: Moore's proposal when he came up with KC. As for myself, I think Twilight was
>: a better idea, if not only because it was such a farther-reaching concept,
>: spread out over 12 issues (and also to be a crossover with other comic titles).
>: But, it's really a moot point since it was never done. I always thought Moore
>
>I don't. Having read it, Moore essentially had to twist and bend the
>behavior of the characters into knots in order to get it to work.
>Virtually none of the characters struck me as acting in ways I could
>believe; the ending was poor (Let's cripple Earth's defenses against all
>the hostile alien races by wiping out the metahumans; oh yes, the
>Weaponers of Qward will keep their promises; yeah, good idea, Batman); and
>it was simply too depressing. Kingdom Come could be depressing at times,
>but it had an upbeat ending and the character behavior was logical in its
>extrapolations, while the whole 'house of X' set up in Moore's proposal
>struck me as artifical and implausible.
I hate to say this, but I agree. First, putting Captain Marvel in an
incestuous relationship with Mary, then making him a pedophile on top
of that?
>
>It was a pile of <censored>. Biggest pile of garbage I've ever seen Moore
>create; DC was right to file it in File 13, so to speak.
Given Moore's recent work, he'd probably be embarrassed these days if
it had actually been published. He seems to take a more positive view
of the concepts now.
E
Sgarre
Well, keep in mind that it was a proposal/outline with much more work
intended to be done on it IF it got accepted. Anyone who has seen it and
says "Yeah, but its a pretty detailed outline" hasn't seen one of
Moore's final scripts in comparison.
As a "brainstorming on an idea" I found it quite fun.
The Crooked Man
> Al'Thor)
> > wrote:
> >
> > I hate to say this, but I agree. First, putting Captain Marvel in
> an
> > incestuous relationship with Mary, then making him a pedophile on
> top
> > of that?
> > >
I don't remember anything out pedophilia in the story. I remember
Captain Marvel's involvement with a large female prositute mentioned,
but nothing about him having sex with children (of course, he was a
child as Billy Batson, but that hardly makes in a pedophile).
Richard Pace
proposal than the things you really want to keep. The metahuman pedophilia,
et. al. would easily be dumped to allow Moore to do the things he really
wanted to do.
An unrelated example could be: I want to make Aquaman a raving,
crossdressing icthyosexual (fish fetish), and have him grow a beard and have
his left hand eaten off and replaced with a hook. If you're an established
pro and the company has already decided to work with you, they'd obviously
balk at the King of the Atlantis screwing Charlie while wearing a Donna
Karan original, but, they'd feel somewhat obligated to concede some of the
changes you want. People have an unatural tendancy to negotiate.
Moore's twilight would have probably been less outrageous than his proposal,
yet still better than Kingdom Come( in my opinion the best looking
Elseworlds done yet, but still, just another Elseworlds).
Take care,
Richard
Sgarre wrote in message <362E0...@USCCMAIL.uscc.bms.com>...
>Eric L Bailey wrote:
>>
>> On 20 Oct 1998 20:53:48 GMT, ra...@falcon.cc.ukans.edu (Ranma Al'Thor)
>> wrote:
>>
>> >OneMonk909 (onemo...@aol.com) wrote:
>> >: For those of you who know about Alan Moore's proposed 1987 DC
maxi-series
>> >: Twilight of the Superheroes, i was wondering what everyone thougt of
the
>> >: similarities between it and Kingdom Come.
snip
>> I hate to say this, but I agree. First, putting Captain Marvel in an
>> incestuous relationship with Mary, then making him a pedophile on top
>> of that?
>> Given Moore's recent work, he'd probably be embarrassed these days if
Prestorjon
incestuous relationship with Mary, then making him a pedophile on top
of that?>>
And I think that is what most peoples criticism boils down to. They don't like
seeing the heroes treated roughly.
The Great and Powerful Danny Sichel
>>> I hate to say this, but I agree. First, putting Captain Marvel in an
>>> incestuous relationship with Mary, then making him a pedophile on top
>>> of that?
> I don't remember anything out pedophilia in the story. I remember
> Captain Marvel's involvement with a large female prositute mentioned,
> but nothing about him having sex with children (of course, he was a
> child as Billy Batson, but that hardly makes in a pedophile).
... although, considering who the large female prostitute really
_was_...
fette...@my-dejanews.com
And, considering who the large female prostitute really was, and what happened
between "her" and Billy, the relationship with Mary wasn't incest, was it?
Dave