FIREBRAQND #1: Pen-Elayne For Your Thoughts
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
"Ashes to Ashes"
Writer/Co-Creator: Brian Augustyn <DCOG...@aol.com> (shared account)
Artist/Co-Creator: Sal Velluto
Letterer: Ken Lopez
Colorist: Trisha Mulvihill <Tris...@aol.com>
Asst. Ed.: Chris Eades <woot...@aol.com>
Head Honcho: Rob Simpson <DCOG...@aol.com too, I think>
Here's what I thought...
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I buy most of the books that Brian Augustyn edits. He has shown a knack
for working with some of the best writers in the business. Still, I was
more than a little skeptical about the debut of this title. The subject
matter didn't really interest me, and I was pretty prepared not to like it.
Okay, I was pretty prepared to tear it apart, if I even bought it. Talk
about rushing to judgement.
So I read it in the comics shop - least I wouldn't be "wasting" my money
if I didn't like it. First time I've ever read a book in the shop in a
*long* while.
Brian, ya fished me in. Well, for now.
Now first, I must say that it's *still* not subject matter which
particularly interests me. I don't care for stories about or featuring
"hero cops." We are surrounded by "hero cops." You can't flip your TV
remote for five minutes without seeing a dozen of them, it seems. Other,
equally noble professions surely exist, but the sheer *percentage* of
shows about the police so outnumbers shows about other real-life
occupations that I'd probably find myself turned off even if I *didn't*
suspect there are more boys in blue out there like Mark Fuhrman than
Serpico. So, it's an uphill battle to get me to pay attention to
something like this to begin with.
Secondly, and more importantly to *this* reader, the whole thing is
very... how do I say this without jumping on my soapbox? Hmm, no way, so
I guess I'll climb up. Very *male*. All the major characters, including
the protagonist, are guys. The only woman is actually the protagonist's
young sister, and she appears as a ghost during his near-death experience.
This book could *very* easily have worked just as well if Alex Sanchez had
been a woman. No alternations that I can see would have been necessary -
save for an alteration in the mindset of the creative folks involved here.
The fact that they thought enough to create a brand-new character and make
that character Latino but not (por exemplo) Latina speaks volumes to those
of us yearning for good, dynamic female characters to add to DC's
pantheon.
Hey, we all bring our own personal baggage with us to everything we
read. Excuse me while I repack my suitcase. There.
For what it is, then, I think FIREBRAND works very well. Sanchez is not
just a hero cop, he's an obsessed detective. How obsessed? He collects
milk cartons with different "Have You Seen Me?" kids' faces on each one.
(The one panel showing him stocking his fridge with these cartons while
insisting to his older brother Javier on the phone that "I do *not*
obsess" was what sold me on this book. *Very* nice example of "showing,
not telling.") He considers it his personal duty to save every kid, and
he's been looking for a link as to their disappearances, where nobody
else can even *find* a link.
Well, he's gotten too close to the truth, and someone who likes that has
arranged for his apartment to blow up in flames. He hates fire - it
killed his sister 16 years ago, and he couldn't save her. So, I'd say
we've got motivation out the wazoo here. The near-death scene was, I
thought, very well done - if this is followed up on, it means he's
experienced a sense of closure to a chapter of his life already, as a
major source of his angst and guilt resolves itself, which is pretty
daring for page six of a premiere issue.
Alex awakens from a coma three months later to find himself rebuilt, many
of his limbs replaced with the medics having "sheathed all the bones in
some super acrylic material" (=whew= at least it's not adamantium!). He
has become the "project" of Dr. Newton Lovell (who could also have been
female... okay, I'll refasten the latch), who proceeds to oversee his
therapy for the next couple months - at which time he meets his
"mysterious benefactor."
The benefactor is some rich guy (not gal... oops, how'd that suitcase come
open again?) named Noah Hightower, who for his own reasons (namely, having
lost a son mysteriously 25 years previous) wants Sanchez to be a Force For
Justice. And he's designed this nifty, high-tech looking suit. Looks like
it already has a guy inside it, too, the way Velluto draws it (and he does
*very* nice work, by the way). I mean, there's even a bulge... *there*...
you know?
To say Sanchez is reluctant would be putting it mildly. So we fast-
forward another two months and eavesdrop on Sanchez' partner Leo (as
opposed to Leora - okay, okay), come to visit him with a progress report
on nailing the sumbitches who tried to off Sanchez. They just happen to
have caught up to Leo, who runs outside to protect his car while asking
Alex to call Security. Sanchez retorts, "Leo, Security here is three
retired guys who play cards all night" (great line, Brian!) and searches
the premises to find something else to help him...
You got it. Anyway, all pretty standard stuff, until Alex turns the
energy-boost knob on his spiffy suit and fire engulfs him for the third
time in his life. And from every indication at the bottom of page 20,
he's in agony.
Surprise. Fire now *good*. But Sanchez still rusty. The bad guys get
away, killing their fellow thug in Alex's grip who might have talked, and
we head into the next issue with the suit feeling *real* nice.
Yes, lots of standard, almost cliched stuff, but Augustyn keeps it
interesting. Velluto's art is tres spiffy - good facial details, well
chosen angles, the works. Trish's colors could be a bit more vibrant, but
there's not much you can salvage with the paper on this $1.75 book, and
she does what she can. (She too did a great job on the near-death scene.)
I don't know if I'll stay with the book, but I'm intrigued enough to get
the next issue, despite the preponderance of testosterone... =sigh= I
know, you're sick of hearing it, but I'm almost sicker of reading it...
In any case, recommended, with the few reservations I note (repeatedly)
above.
So, what did y'all think?
- Elayne
--
This review is copyright 1995 Elayne Wechsler-Chaput, living in the Land
of Lousy Newsgroup Post Propagation, wishing she too could read the latest
press release from Marvel Comics announcing their imminent name change to
Mootpoint Comics, and wondering if anyone will notice...
Jim Smith
On 14 Dec 1995, Elayne Wechsler-Chaput wrote:
> Now first, I must say that it's *still* not subject matter which
> particularly interests me. I don't care for stories about or featuring
> "hero cops." We are surrounded by "hero cops."
That part of the premise turned me off as well. A cop sorta already _is_
a hero (unless he's a soured cop, and then he wouldn't be getting a comic
book to start with). Now, a teenage nerd, a millionaire socialite, and a
once-rich and famous surgeon down on his luck--THESE are people that are
interesting when bestowed with superpowers or crimefighting skills. We
know a cop with powers will strive to do what's right, but someone who
didn't intend to go out saving people a week ago might have second thoughts.
Of ocurse, a firefighter or a soldier might make interesting superheroes,
simply because they're less tried and true.
> Secondly, and more importantly to *this* reader, the whole thing is
> very... how do I say this without jumping on my soapbox? Hmm, no way, so
> I guess I'll climb up. Very *male*. All the major characters, including
> the protagonist, are guys.
THis doesn't surprise me a bit.
I think (and I admit I don't know much about this field) that when a male
comes up with a character, he starts with the basic pattern for himself,
and works his way from there. And since most writers aren't tough and
strong and heroic, very little of his nature is retained, most notably
gender. What I'm saying is that males tend to create male characters,
unless the character absolutely _has_ to be female for the sake of the
story (i.e., love interest, someone trpapped in a burning women's
restroom, answer to "not enough women!" complaints, etc.)
Do women have a gender bias when _they_ create characters? I'm not
sure. Louise Simonson seems to be fair, but I notice all of Steel's real
enemies are male (not counting the various women in Team Hazard, and
natuarlly the White Rabbit). When some new costumed weirdo shows up in
an issue of STEEL, you can bet it's a male, so I wonder if this is
exemplary of most women writers (Weezie is the only one I'm truly
familiar with, I'm afraid)
The only woman is actually the protagonist's
> young sister, and she appears as a ghost during his near-death experience.
> This book could *very* easily have worked just as well if Alex Sanchez had
> been a woman.
Lots of comics would (would Polly Parker, the Spectacular Spider-Woman be
that big of a change?). Again, we go back to this instinct in male
writers to create main characters they can identify with. I have come up
with my own share of characters, and I find myself often fighting the
urge to make them all white males age 18-34 (I tried making an elderly
superhero, and I just never put much thought into my overweight
superhero). In fact, I'd bet I've developed more women characters just
because I've thought "Well, let's make this one a woman for a change,"
once too often :)
A really good example was when I was sitting in class one day in high
school, and just thought of this really cool super power. Immediately I
began forming a character in my head, and he was a male. At some point
though, I switched gears and decided the world needs more heroines, so I
retooled the whole idea. But that was pretty irritating--it took some
time before I could think of this character as a woman, and I
reconsidered a few times. Nowadays, I wouldn't have her any other way,
but I can see where Augustyn would be equally inclined to make Firebrand
his own gender.
(In case anyone's wondering, the character I brought up never got past a
few drawings and costume designs. TO this date I've never _used_ her for
anything. Time will tell...)
Jim "Wresting for control of Elayne's soapbox" Smith
Jeremy Billones
>On 14 Dec 1995, Elayne Wechsler-Chaput wrote:
>> This book could *very* easily have worked just as well if Alex Sanchez had
>> been a woman.
>
>Lots of comics would (would Polly Parker, the Spectacular Spider-Woman be
>that big of a change?).
It would certainly put a twist on the whole J. Jonah Jameson
conflict, wouldn't it?
Jeremy Billones bill...@access.digex.net
Washington Capitals '95-96: Hope Springs Eternal USSF Certifiable
"Give me tomorrow \ And another chance \ To tear down this wall
That keeps us so far apart."
Dwight Williams
> This Firebrand is a completely new character....no ties to the Golden Age
> character Firebrand.
_"Characters"_. Plural, as per _All-Star Squadron_.
A fact which I had to note with a certain amount of sadness, personally
speaking. I'd like to know where the Reilly siblings are these days. I
know that Danette managed to raise Nuklon's mother right, but is she or
her brother still around? If not, when did they pass on?
Can this be dealt with someday?
--
Dwight Williams(ad...@freenet.carleton.ca) -- Orleans, Ontario, Canada
Peter Meilinger
: >> This book could *very* easily have worked just as well if Alex Sanchez had
: >> been a woman.
: >
: >Lots of comics would (would Polly Parker, the Spectacular Spider-Woman be
: >that big of a change?).
: It would certainly put a twist on the whole J. Jonah Jameson
: conflict, wouldn't it?
I don't think Spidey would have worked as a female, especially not in the
60's. He started out as the classic geek, and that stereotype belongs almost
exclusively to skinny guys with glasses. Another take on the character could
have easily been female, but that's another story.
And it might've been cool had other characters been female - Batman or
Captain America, for example, have absolutely no reason to be male.
Whatever that means.
Pete
Harold T Leonard
In article <4arv8e$j...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, tris...@aol.com (TrishaDE) writes:
>This Firebrand is a completely new character....no ties to the Golden Age
>character Firebrand.
The only reason I was planning on buying it was because of ties to
the golden age Firebrand. Now that I know there are none, it makes
it a whole lot easier.
H. Thomas Leonard III
TrishaDE
So you wouldn't even take a look at this new book at all? Why not
check it out before dismissing it?
Trisha
Jeffrey B Hartranft
>60's. He started out as the classic geek, and that stereotype belongs almost
>exclusively to skinny guys with glasses. Another take on the character could
>have easily been female, but that's another story.
>
>And it might've been cool had other characters been female - Batman or
>Captain America, for example, have absolutely no reason to be male.
>Whatever that means.
>
>Pete
can become obsessed with fighting crime after seing his/her parents gunned
down in an alley.
However, given the origin of Captain america, created during WWII to be the
ultimate soldier it wouldn't really make sense for Cap to be female.
While the Super-soldier formula formula would work on a woman the army
would never have picked one for the project.
Jeff
Jack Grimes
>A really good example was when I was sitting in class one day in high
>school, and just thought of this really cool super power. Immediately I
>began forming a character in my head, and he was a male. At some point
>though, I switched gears and decided the world needs more heroines, so I
>retooled the whole idea. But that was pretty irritating--it took some
>time before I could think of this character as a woman, and I
>reconsidered a few times. Nowadays, I wouldn't have her any other way,
>but I can see where Augustyn would be equally inclined to make Firebrand
>his own gender.
>
>(In case anyone's wondering, the character I brought up never got past a
>few drawings and costume designs. TO this date I've never _used_ her for
>anything. Time will tell...)
>
>Jim "Wresting for control of Elayne's soapbox" Smith
Just curious, Jim....what is the cool new power??
Jack Grimes aka | "I found the world ain't how it
Lambda Bowling | looks, when you learned it all
Marauder: Guatemala| from comic books."
Masters Division. | --Sloppy Seconds
LBM...@epix.net |
dle2
>> very... how do I say this without jumping on my soapbox? Hmm, no way, so
>> I guess I'll climb up. Very *male*. All the major characters, including
>> the protagonist, are guys.
Elayne, I had the same kind of reaction to Industrial Gothic. The story is
supposed to explore the meaning of beauty and involves a normal man and a female
with no arms or legs. When I first heard about it I wondered why they didn't
make the male the amputee. It would have really changed the dynamic of the
story and made for, IMHO, a better story.
>THis doesn't surprise me a bit.
Doesn't surprise me either, although for different reasons than you. :)
One reason male characters are predominant in comics because the comic companies
believe that women don't buy comics. Women don't buy comics because comic
companies don't make comics for them. And the circle goes round and round and
round....
>I think (and I admit I don't know much about this field) that when a male
>comes up with a character, he starts with the basic pattern for himself,
>and works his way from there. And since most writers aren't tough and
>strong and heroic, very little of his nature is retained,
Well, actually a lot of his nature would be retained, as the situation you
describe would result in an idealized version of the writer. Almost anyone can
write about characters similar to themselves; the trick is to create characters
that are totally unlike you.
>most notably
>gender. What I'm saying is that males tend to create male characters,
This is probably true, but an experienced or more mature writer will overcome
this. Didn't early Asimov tend to be more male-dominant, whereas his later work
was better balanced?
>unless the character absolutely _has_ to be female for the sake of the
>story (i.e., love interest, someone trpapped in a burning women's
>restroom, answer to "not enough women!" complaints, etc.)
Yep, the classic women = victim or women are only useful as plot devices.
Immature writers generally have problems dealing with women as protagonists, or
even as non-stereotyped secondary characters.
>Do women have a gender bias when _they_ create characters? I'm not
>sure. Louise Simonson seems to be fair, but I notice all of Steel's real
>enemies are male (not counting the various women in Team Hazard, and
>natuarlly the White Rabbit). When some new costumed weirdo shows up in
>an issue of STEEL, you can bet it's a male, so I wonder if this is
>exemplary of most women writers (Weezie is the only one I'm truly
>familiar with, I'm afraid)
I think both sexes fall prey to creating same sex characters. A more
experienced or mature writer will compensate for this.
>> The only woman is actually the protagonist's
>> young sister, and she appears as a ghost during his near-death experience.
>> This book could *very* easily have worked just as well if Alex Sanchez had
>> been a woman.
>
>Lots of comics would (would Polly Parker, the Spectacular Spider-Woman be
>that big of a change?).
Probably. Polly would have undergone a very different type of peer pressure
than Peter; more psychological than physical. Flash's admiration for Spider-man
could become infatuation and he sure as heck wouldn't have been caught by Dr.
Doom. Gwen Stacey would still be alive, although ya never know....<g> The
interplay between Spidey & the Torch would be a lot different, given the kind of
womanizer that Johnny is.
I think the big picture might still be the same; Spider-Woman becomes a famous
crimefighter and battles Dr. Doom and Doc Oc and so on. However, the underlying
structure and the interplay between the different characters would be very
different. And who knows, if her book was as successful as Peter's, we might be
reading Iron Woman, Silver Surferess, Francine Carter-Punisher, Joan Blaze-Ghost
Rider, X-Women, Mr. Marvel, Savage He-Hulk, and, best of all, Woman-Thing. <g>
>Again, we go back to this instinct in male
>writers to create main characters they can identify with.
I think the trick is not necessarily identifying yourself with the character,
but having an understanding with the character; knowing what it's basic
motivations, emotions, goals, aims, means, etc are and taking it from there.
The writer has to have some hook into the character in order to write about them
and doing that often helps writing the story; characters often take you in
directions you never thought about.
If writers only wrote characters they could identify with, the world would be a
very boring place. Does Mark Waid really identify with Impulse? Does Priest
share characteristics with Triumph?
>I have come up
>with my own share of characters, and I find myself often fighting the
>urge to make them all white males age 18-34
A sign you're growing as a writer. :)
>(I tried making an elderly
>superhero, and I just never put much thought into my overweight
>superhero). In fact, I'd bet I've developed more women characters just
>because I've thought "Well, let's make this one a woman for a change,"
>once too often :)
Nothing wrong with that. I wish more comic writers thought like that.
-Dave Eppley
Kynn Bartlett
>>that big of a change?).
>It would certainly put a twist on the whole J. Jonah Jameson
>conflict, wouldn't it?
Why?
It's not like a woman can't have a conflict with an annoying boss/editor
as much as a man can, or anything.
/\ /\ /\ /\ Kynn Bartlett / ky...@idyllmtn.com
/ \ / \ / \ / \
/ \ / \/ \ / \ Idyll Mountain Internet
/ \ //\ /\ \ / \ 110 E. Wilshire Ave / Suite G-10
/, ,\ // \ / \ \ /, ,\ Fullerton, CA 92632 / 714.526.5656
_| _ // \/ \____\ _| _ <URL:http://www.idyllmtn.com/idyllmtn/>
Kynn Bartlett
>i can totally understand your point, but your statement makes me wonder:
>how are readers who are people of color supposed to respond to stories that
>almost *never* include them? firebrand is an exception, but i think that
>you would be hard pressed to find any comic that a significant amount of
>people of color in the cast. how are these readers supposed to feel as
>though they are "welcome". just a thought.
They're supposed to read Milestone, of course. Comics for "them."
Note: The above is sarcasm, and not my real views. I have heard some
people, though, state the opinion that Milestone comics, Steel, and
other comics featuring black characters are "intended for" primarly
minority audiences.
As a plain-vanilla white American male who buys every issue of Milestone
that comes out -- some mainly just to show support for my favorite comic
publisher -- I find that idea preposterous.
However, given that I can enjoy a well-written and well-drawn comic,
whether it's about a black man or Latino woman or whatever, I end up
puzzled when I hear that John might not feel "welcome" reading a comic
with a white hero, or that Elayne feels "excluded" by male characters.
Should I feel the same way, if I read a comic (such as the latest Icon)
and notice that all the characters are black? Is that a comic that's
"not for me?"
I've written to Elayne about this recently, and while I think I
understand her point of view, I'm still not convinced that I agree with
it, really. Comments?
Kynn Bartlett
>One reason male characters are predominant in comics because the comic companies
>believe that women don't buy comics. Women don't buy comics because comic
>companies don't make comics for them. And the circle goes round and round and
>round....
And I think it's generally a true belief from the comic companies. It's
not something they've made up for whatever reason, it's economics.
The comic books made "for women" just don't sell in any great amounts.
And whose fault is that?
The women who don't buy them, I think. It's certainly not the fault of
the comic companies -- who would gladly create and sell comics to
whatever group of the population who wants to buy them, I'm convinced --
nor of the teenage hormone-driven boys who buy X-Tits or whatever.
The only way for there to be more comics written for women is if more
women start buying comics. It's economics.
Abhay Khosla
> But I can see Firebrand as either gender, and I can certainly see
> mixed-gender supporting casts in just about any comic book. When a book
> doesn't have *any* women in the supporting cast, it's a bit jarring to
> me, and often makes me feel like I'm not really welcome as a reader.
> - Elayne
Thats wierd. There are almost no Indians in comics, never affected me
that much. Maybe gender has more affect or something...
I was damn excited for some crazy reason I couldn't understand when I
heard a Korean was starring in a book at Milestone(Xombi). And I was there
for Dharma in Shadow Cabinet. But its me and its that little punk kid
from Johnny Quest and the guy from the Simpsons really.
But I don't think I ever really minded the lack of it.
I kinda do now- it makes me a little sad, but thats it. But I guess
thats cause its like that all over the place- ask people about race, not
many of them will get past black and white...
At least you got Wonder Woman, I guess...
-Abhay
akh...@umich.edu
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
: I don't think Spidey would have worked as a female, especially not in the
: 60's. He started out as the classic geek, and that stereotype belongs almost
: exclusively to skinny guys with glasses. Another take on the character could
: have easily been female, but that's another story.
Well, as a former geeky high school female, I take great exception to
that sentence that only males can be losers... uh, er, wait a minute -
can I rephrase that? <g>
: And it might've been cool had other characters been female - Batman or
: Captain America, for example, have absolutely no reason to be male.
: Whatever that means.
No, I couldn't see Cap as female, because so much of the '40s military
mindset was male, and that's what he came out of. Batman... maybe.
Maaaaaybe. But it'd be a stretch for me.
But I can see Firebrand as either gender, and I can certainly see
mixed-gender supporting casts in just about any comic book. When a book
doesn't have *any* women in the supporting cast, it's a bit jarring to
me, and often makes me feel like I'm not really welcome as a reader.
- Elayne
--
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John Todd
Wechsler-Chaput) wrote:
> No, I couldn't see Cap as female, because so much of the '40s military
> mindset was male, and that's what he came out of. Batman... maybe.
> Maaaaaybe. But it'd be a stretch for me.
>
> But I can see Firebrand as either gender, and I can certainly see
> mixed-gender supporting casts in just about any comic book. When a book
> doesn't have *any* women in the supporting cast, it's a bit jarring to
> me, and often makes me feel like I'm not really welcome as a reader.
>
> - Elayne
i can totally understand your point, but your statement makes me wonder:
how are readers who are people of color supposed to respond to stories that
almost *never* include them? firebrand is an exception, but i think that
you would be hard pressed to find any comic that a significant amount of
people of color in the cast. how are these readers supposed to feel as
though they are "welcome". just a thought.
john
fredrick b. chary
>dl...@itc.cc.bellcore.com (dle2) wrote:
>>One reason male characters are predominant in comics because the comic companies
>>believe that women don't buy comics. Women don't buy comics because comic
>>companies don't make comics for them. And the circle goes round and round and
>>round....
>
>not something they've made up for whatever reason, it's economics.
>
>The comic books made "for women" just don't sell in any great amounts.
>
>And whose fault is that?
>
>The women who don't buy them, I think. It's certainly not the fault of
>the comic companies -- who would gladly create and sell comics to
>whatever group of the population who wants to buy them, I'm convinced --
>nor of the teenage hormone-driven boys who buy X-Tits or whatever.
>
>The only way for there to be more comics written for women is if more
>women start buying comics. It's economics.
Why should women support the current product? There's an awful lot of
sexualization of women in comics. Part of it is just artistic
stupidity, but alot of it is also, I think an open attemtp to use
male, adolescent sexual fantasy to make many titles more appealing to
14 yearold boys. Look at Lady Rawhide?
MIke.
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
the top of my soapbox, when he wrote:
: Again, we go back to this instinct in male
: writers to create main characters they can identify with. I have come up
: with my own share of characters, and I find myself often fighting the
: urge to make them all white males age 18-34 (I tried making an elderly
: superhero, and I just never put much thought into my overweight
: superhero). In fact, I'd bet I've developed more women characters just
: because I've thought "Well, let's make this one a woman for a change,"
: once too often :)
The sign of a writer who's thinking about these things. So far I find
female characters far easier to write than male ones, which I see as
somewhat of a fault which I must work to better. You have to write beyond
your own experience sooner or later or yeah, you're gonna wind up writing
about someone sitting behind a computer writing. :) Sanchez is Latino,
which (to my knowledge) Augustyn has never been, so we see he is thinking
somewhat in that vein. Which just made the almost total absence of women
in this book a tad... peculiar to me.
: A really good example was when I was sitting in class one day in high
: school, and just thought of this really cool super power. Immediately I
: began forming a character in my head, and he was a male. At some point
: though, I switched gears and decided the world needs more heroines, so I
: retooled the whole idea.
Ah, but what if you *didn't retool the idea* and the character was
*still* female? I mean, female as in "just happened to be?" Yeah, you'd
have to lose all those mens' room scenes ;), but you'd still have your
hero with the cool power. And the fact that she was a *hero* should
still be paramount over "she's a *female* hero..."
I could say the same about male heroes, of course, but this is pretty
much taken for granted with male heroes.
: But that was pretty irritating--it took some
: time before I could think of this character as a woman, and I
: reconsidered a few times. Nowadays, I wouldn't have her any other way,
: but I can see where Augustyn would be equally inclined to make Firebrand
: his own gender.
It's difficult conditioning to break. I will be very happy with my
writing the first time I can write a credible male character. But I
think it's a worthy goal for which to strive.
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
: i can totally understand your point, but your statement makes me wonder:
: how are readers who are people of color supposed to respond to stories that
: almost *never* include them?
I would presume, the same way I respond to comics that don't include
females. Although I will admit that more comics seem to include women
than folks of color, even as "only" supporting characters.
: you would be hard pressed to find any comic that a significant amount of
: people of color in the cast. how are these readers supposed to feel as
: though they are "welcome".
A good question. I'm sure this was part of the impetus that led Cowan,
McDuffie, Owsley, etc. to start up Milestone.
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
: Elayne, I had the same kind of reaction to Industrial Gothic. The story is
: supposed to explore the meaning of beauty and involves a normal man and a female
: with no arms or legs. When I first heard about it I wondered why they didn't
: make the male the amputee. It would have really changed the dynamic of the
: story and made for, IMHO, a better story.
I thought the same thing when the movie "Boxing Helena" came out, on
which I thought the idea for this book might in part be based.
I mean, is this some kind of sick trend, cutting off women's limbs and
then having them subsequently *fall in love* with you? Give me Jan in the
Pan any day, I say. ;) (MST3K in-joke)
: One reason male characters are predominant in comics because the comic companies
: believe that women don't buy comics. Women don't buy comics because comic
: companies don't make comics for them. And the circle goes round and round and
: round....
Yepper. Friends of Lulu's on (and on and on) this, believe me.
: I think the big picture might still be the same; Spider-Woman becomes a famous
: crimefighter and battles Dr. Doom and Doc Oc and so on. However, the underlying
: structure and the interplay between the different characters would be very
: different.
Yeah, I can picture all those scenes with Aunt May in quite the different
light. "Gee," thinks Polly Parker constantly, "am I going to wind up
alone, like her, so *dependent* on... on whom?" Lots of nice stuff could
be done with the fact that women *are* the primary caretakers for elderly
relatives, and often wind up alone when they themselves turn old.
: I think the trick is not necessarily identifying yourself with the character,
: but having an understanding with the character; knowing what it's basic
: motivations, emotions, goals, aims, means, etc are and taking it from there.
Yep.
: If writers only wrote characters they could identify with, the world would be a
: very boring place. Does Mark Waid really identify with Impulse?
As far as I can tell, yes. :)
: Does Priest share characteristics with Triumph?
Hmm... prolly not. Jim?
M Waid
Like you wouldn't believe.
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
: Why should women support the current product? There's an awful lot of
: sexualization of women in comics. Part of it is just artistic
: stupidity, but alot of it is also, I think an open attemtp to use
: male, adolescent sexual fantasy to make many titles more appealing to
: 14 yearold boys. Look at Lady Rawhide?
Which my *friend* Charlie Novinskie keeps shoving into my face every time
I see him at a convention. Goodness only *knows* what a *stranger* would
do. :}
Once again I brave the Bad Girl Fest that is GEC in order to work a
Friends of Lulu booth. And think back to cons like Chicago and Mid-Ohio
where this wasn't a problem. (I'm dreading the worst - in NY, the
Greenberg folks put us two booths away from Vampirella...)
I mean, like Mike intimates, it doesn't exactly work to make a gal feel
*welcome*, y'know?
Priest
Wechsler-Chaput) wrote:
> John Todd (jto...@cc.swarthmore.edu) wrote:
>
> : i can totally understand your point, but your statement makes me wonder:
> : how are readers who are people of color supposed to respond to stories that
> : almost *never* include them?
>
> I would presume, the same way I respond to comics that don't include
> females. Although I will admit that more comics seem to include women
> than folks of color, even as "only" supporting characters.
>
> : you would be hard pressed to find any comic that a significant amount of
> : people of color in the cast. how are these readers supposed to feel as
> : though they are "welcome".
I think #13 of The Ray was the first issue of the series an
African-American appeared in-- no, wait-- Gaelon in #11. I never asked
Jack C. Harris to include an AA in the mini because I wanted Jack to write
a story-- not follow some agenda of mine. In Ray's limited circle of
acquaintance, it would be unlikely he'd have had a lot of black friends,
and I felt shoehorning them in just to statisfy *my* agenda would be
wrong.
Gaelon, the black lady cop from the future, was another matter entirely.
Philadelphia has a large AA populace, and when Ray saved that kid's life
(Gaelon, age three or so), it was far more feasible the child could have
been of any race-- thus allowing for Gaelon's ethnicity.
I think we see few women and minorities in comics because few women and
minorities are *in comics*, i.e. we create what we know. To the best of my
knowledge, I am the first black writer and editor for a major comics
publisher *ever.* And my career began in 1978.
In Ray, Jack C. Harris and I created what *we* knew-- an insecure kid
raised in a vacuum. I could have insisted Ray be black, but I was not the
pilot. I was the ground crew. I was obliged to let Jack create w/o
hampering him with agendas.
I feel some guilty pleasure over enjoying "Friends," as much as I do.
JOEY:
Ross-- tell him. That's the way they measure pants.
ROSS:
Sure-- sure, that's right-- in PRISON!!
BWAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!
But there are no black friends. And, honestly, I hope there never will be
one until the writers create a reasonable reason why these people would
have one. I no more chose my friends for their skin color than Elayne
does. But, when I was a teenager, I had far more black friends that white
because of the demographics of where I lived.
It would insult me for a black friend to get shoe-horned in there. The
imperatives of racial balance notwithstanding (and certyainly not to
mitigate Mr. Todd's point, which is well taken), I prefer art be art and
not propaganda.
Sorry to butt in...
________________________
Priest
cll2...@rmii.com
Intel Inside: the world's most widely used warning label
Dave Van Domelen
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput <fire...@panix.com> wrote:
>dle2 (dl...@itc.cc.bellcore.com) wrote:
>: Does Priest share characteristics with Triumph?
>Hmm... prolly not. Jim?
Well, I hear he was recently given this box, and if he opened it the last
ten years of Marvel continuity would be erased, letting him continue the Power
Man / Iron Fist series and making it so that the Spider-Clone never came back,
but some joker superglued it shut....
Dave Van Domelen, can just see Triumph and Cerebus in a bar together: "An'
Cerebus iz gonna die alllll alone an' unloved, thas wha' Tarim said." "Tell me
about it."
frederick chary
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput <fire...@panix.com> wrote:
>*why* it was called the Golden Age). But I'd be hard pressed to amass
>evidence that most companies feel that way today. Most are hardly
>prepared to break out of the superhero niche, a niche which has
>traditionally had less appeal for female readers than other forms of
>literary fantasy.
Hardly. Paradox Press, Vertigo, Dark Horse, Malibu, Bongo, Archie, Disney...
The marketplace is rife with nonsuperhero comics.
Grover, using Fred's account.
christopher j rednour,sa120a cd,244-5012,8
In a previous article, mell...@bu.edu (Peter Meilinger) says:
>I don't think Spidey would have worked as a female, especially not in the
>60's. He started out as the classic geek, and that stereotype belongs almost
>exclusively to skinny guys with glasses. Another take on the character could
>have easily been female, but that's another story.
>
>And it might've been cool had other characters been female - Batman or
>Captain America, for example, have absolutely no reason to be male.
>Whatever that means.
>
Well, I can see a "Modern Day" origin which might take into account
gender, but Captain America was designed to be a "super-soldier"
something I doubt the '30's military would have went for had Steve been a
woman.
A better argument could be made for Batman, I supose. It wouldn't be
inconcevable to have a rich female, but in the 30's again, would she have
been able to get the training that the male Bruce did?
There is of course no reason for Superman to be male.
Likewise with Fawcett's Captain Marvel [and now she isn't ;)]
The Flash [although if we are talking the golden age Flash, I doubt she
would have been accepted on the football team :)] could be a woman, as
could Green Lantern [unless we are trying to plug the woman into Hal's
origin, in which I think she would have difficulty being a test pilot in
the '60's].
*sigh* Does anybody remember my point in writting this?
--
Chris Rednour *Ibis the Invincible, LSH, L*, Hourman,
___________________________________ *Doc Savage, Doctor Who, Power of
Ibis the Invincible returns in | *Shazam, Bjork, Syd Barrett, Madness
_Power of Shazam!_ #11 (DC Comics) | *Squaresoft Games, _Bridge of Birds_
Joseph T Arendt
***
In article <4b452k$m...@dekalb.dc.peachnet.edu>,
christopher j rednour,sa120a cd,244-5012,8 <cred...@dekalb.dc.peachnet.edu> wr
ote:
I like the idea of a female test pilot becoming Green Lantern.
Heck, set it today when women really are test pilots. That could become
fun with women training the male fighter pilots, but supposedly
aren't supposed to see combat themselves. Imagine the female pilot,
who has become Green Lantern, getting so she *COUNTS ON BEING EXCLUDED*
from combat flying so she can change into Green Lantern (Whatever version)
without being missed so she can rescue the others. :-)
Was there a point to this? I liked Jesse Quick being chose as
a supposed successor for Flash, even if it was just a trick to motivate
Impulse.
Joe
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
: The comic books made "for women" just don't sell in any great amounts.
: And whose fault is that?
: The women who don't buy them, I think....
If this isn't one of the most blatant cases of "blaming the victim" that
I've ever read, I don't know what is.
I buy comics, *despite* the fact that, as a woman, I *rarely* feel
encouraged to buy them by the attitudes that exist out there, everywhere
from conventions filled with Bad Girl garbage to stores filled with
employees that ignore me to comics that don't even bother writing women
in as characters.
You keep being banged over the head enough with "You're not wanted," it's
really, really hard not to *feel* like you're not wanted. And then you
turn it around and say, "Well, it's your fault!"???
Uh-uh. I Don't Think So.
: It's certainly not the fault of
: the comic companies -- who would gladly create and sell comics to
: whatever group of the population who wants to buy them, I'm convinced --
Well, they certainly felt that way in the Golden Age (one of the reasons
*why* it was called the Golden Age). But I'd be hard pressed to amass
evidence that most companies feel that way today. Most are hardly
prepared to break out of the superhero niche, a niche which has
traditionally had less appeal for female readers than other forms of
literary fantasy.
- Elayne
Jeremy Billones
ky...@idyllmtn.com (Kynn Bartlett) writes:
>bill...@access2.digex.net (Jeremy Billones) wrote:
>>It would certainly put a twist on the whole J. Jonah Jameson
>>conflict, wouldn't it?
>Why?
>It's not like a woman can't have a conflict with an annoying boss/editor
>as much as a man can, or anything.
Sure. But the father/son dynamic is radically different (in the
general case) than the father/daughter dynamic. *Especially*
since JJJ has a son, and (IIRC) no daughters.
Jeremy Billones bill...@access.digex.net
Washington Capitals '95-96: Hope Springs Eternal USSF Certifiable
"Give me tomorrow \ And another chance \ To tear down this wall
That keeps us so far apart."
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
: However, given that I can enjoy a well-written and well-drawn comic,
: whether it's about a black man or Latino woman or whatever, I end up
: puzzled when I hear that John might not feel "welcome" reading a comic
: with a white hero, or that Elayne feels "excluded" by male characters.
: Should I feel the same way, if I read a comic (such as the latest Icon)
: and notice that all the characters are black? Is that a comic that's
: "not for me?"
: I've written to Elayne about this recently, and while I think I
: understand her point of view, I'm still not convinced that I agree with
: it, really. Comments?
Clarification: Not "excluded by male characters" - "excluded by *the
absence of ANY female characters*." There's a difference. Most of the
comics I read have male protagonists - as opposed to most of the genre
literature I read (specifically, fantasy books written by women) which
by and large has female protagonists. I personally much prefer a female
protagonist to a male one, because of the way I read fantasy. I like to
lose myself in it, and I can't do that if there's nothing in the fantasy
for me to grab onto.
You don't have to agree (good grief, I'd be surprised if you did!), but
I'm glad you made an effort to understand. I certainly don't pretend
everyone else (or *anyone* else) has the same view of reading as I do.
And to answer one of your above questions, I feel very weird watching,
for instance, TV shows in which everyone's male or everyone's white too.
And I talk back to my TV constantly, screaming, "Where's everyone else?"
Just ask poor Steve, who has to put up with it. :)
dle2
>: supposed to explore the meaning of beauty and involves a normal man and a
>: female with no arms or legs. When I first heard about it I wondered why
>: they didn't make the male the amputee. It would have really changed the
>: dynamic of the story and made for, IMHO, a better story.
>
>I thought the same thing when the movie "Boxing Helena" came out, on
>which I thought the idea for this book might in part be based.
>I mean, is this some kind of sick trend, cutting off women's limbs and
>then having them subsequently *fall in love* with you?
Well, actually, the woman in IG lost her limbs before she met and fell in love
with the guy, but, yeah, I wondered why the need for a limbless woman. This
is probably one of the few times I'm buying a book not because I enjoy it, but
because I want to see what the creator's point is. The only reasons I can
think of so far are the obvious ones. A) Women are typically the *beautiful*
ones in society, so you have to mutilate them to make them *ugly* B) Women
are typically viewed as weak and defenseless and this is just an extension of
their supposed reliance on men (how 1950's! <g>). So far, she's actually
fairly independent, which just makes me wish she had arms and legs more. Let
*her* be the one carrying some legless guy on her back.
-Dave Eppley
Bruce Baugh
dl...@itc.cc.bellcore.com (dle2) wrote:
:little content. "Here's Justice Sandra Day O'Conner, Time's Woman of the
:Year, nude on a BMW in a field!"
THOSE NAUGHTY JUSTICES has a certain charm to it, though. Maybe the Supreme
Court would get more respect if it had cool blue and yellow uniforms in a
butt-floss style.
(The side question as to what goes on after hours in an environment full of
hormonally super-charged teens flashing lots of bare or nearly-so flesh all
the time is left for another thread.)
bru...@teleport.com - <*> - http://www.teleport.com/~bruceab/index.html
List Manager, Christlib, where Christian & libertarian concerns hang out
Science fiction readers: Preview S.M. Stirling's DRAKON and WORD OF NIGHT
(the new Marid Audran novel by George Alec Effin ger) at my home page.
dle2
>>companies
>>believe that women don't buy comics. Women don't buy comics because comic
>>companies don't make comics for them. And the circle goes round and round
>>and round....
>
There's a difference between *truth* and *what we believe to be true.*
>It's
>not something they've made up for whatever reason, it's economics.
>The comic books made "for women" just don't sell in any great amounts.
Well, compared to other entertainment medium, comics made "for men" don't
sell in any great amounts either. :) However, books like Love and Rockets,
SIP (despite it's cheesecake) and Strange Attractors seem to sell well to
women. They may not be *women's comics*, but they are *women friendly* unlike
Spawn or Vampirella. These books are relative *big sellers* for indy presses,
yet you don't see the majors rushing out to imitate them.
>And whose fault is that?
>The women who don't buy them, I think.
How are women supposed to buy something they don't know exists? In a
ghettoized industry, you can't blame the buying public for not knowing about
your product.
Suppose I invent a cure for cancer. Instead of announcing it to the world,
I just put it in boxes labelled *Cancer-Go* and ship it to health food stores
where it sits on the bottom shelf, basically unnoticed. If people don't buy
it, does that mean there's no demand for it? No, it means, that I haven't
marketed my product correctly.
>It's certainly not the fault of
>the comic companies -- who would gladly create and sell comics to
>whatever group of the population who wants to buy them, I'm convinced --
If this is true, then why do new companies like Tekno and Broadway and Motown
gear their comics towards super-hero fans? There are very few attempts
(Paradox is one) to get the general public involved with comics or to expand
the consumer base. They almost always go after the same group; the
*comic-buying population.* They all try to grab a slice of the same pie,
instead of going out and buying more pies!
>nor of the teenage hormone-driven boys who buy X-Tits or whatever.
I see, since the kids want soft-porn, we should give it to them. Don't you
think the publisher bears just a *little* responsibility for what they
produce? If your primary driver is what sells, then most magazines would be
worthless pieces of trash, filled with women in skimpy bathing suits and very
little content. "Here's Justice Sandra Day O'Conner, Time's Woman of the
Year, nude on a BMW in a field!"
>The only way for there to be more comics written for women is if more
>women start buying comics. It's economics.
Unfortunately, this is true and this is what Friends of Lulu is working on.
However, shouldn't it be the responsibility of the publisher to expand their
consumer base not some fan-based group? It seems very short-sighted to ignore
half of your potential customers.
John Saponaro
Watson was Spider-Man's aunt -- and that Mary Jane was Spidey?
Abhiji...@transarc.com
bru...@teleport.com (Bruce Baugh) writes:
> (The side question as to what goes on after hours in an environment full of
> hormonally super-charged teens flashing lots of bare or nearly-so flesh all
> the time is left for another thread.)
Probably very little, according to Normalman :-).
Abhiji...@transarc.com
dl...@itc.cc.bellcore.com (dle2) writes:
> >not something they've made up for whatever reason, it's economics.
> >The comic books made "for women" just don't sell in any great amounts.
>
> Well, compared to other entertainment medium, comics made "for men" don't
> sell in any great amounts either. :) However, books like Love and Rockets,
> SIP (despite it's cheesecake) and Strange Attractors seem to sell well to
> women.
[ Love and Rocket used to have cheesecake too. A LOT of it.]. I wasn't aware
that Strange Attractors sold particularly well (I tried a few issues and
wouldn't recommend it: I found it too goofy).
> ella. These books are relative *big sellers* for indy presses,
> yet you don't see the majors rushing out to imitate them.
A big seller for the Indy presses doesn't mean a big seller overall. Love and
Rockets (a stable comic, which has been in publication since 1983) has only
modest sales. Very few B & W Indys sell over 12,000 copies. Bone, Cerebus and
Kabuki are the only ones that come to mind immediately. [ Tyrant was very
successful with issue 1, but there hasn't been an issue in 6 months.].
And following a quality product isn't that easy. There's only one Jeff Smith,
one Dave Sim, one Dave Mack, and most of those prefer not to work at the big
companies (Image is really a bunch of folks who share a common logo, so it
doesn't really count here). [ Nor are most Indy wartists up to those
standards either.]
> >The women who don't buy them, I think.
>
> How are women supposed to buy something they don't know exists? In a
> ghettoized industry, you can't blame the buying public for not knowing about
> your product.
True. But its important to realize HOW the industry came to this situation.
In the 70s, most comics sales dropped drastically, returns increased and the
industry shrank. DC came close to being shut down. Why did superheroes
surivive while other genres shrank (including romance comics and kids comics)
? Quite simply, because of the superhero fans who were willing to stick by
their boyhood idols.
In a sense therefore, its not really so much a question of "Why did other
genres die out ?" so much as "Why did superheroes survive ? ". Answer:
Because of the fans. If any particular genre didn't survive these "shakeouts",
a part of the blame must go the fans who didn't care enough for it to
survive. Kynn's statement is a bit extreme, but its not all that inaccurate
historically.
> >the comic companies -- who would gladly create and sell comics to
> >whatever group of the population who wants to buy them, I'm convinced --
>
> If this is true, then why do new companies like Tekno and Broadway and
>Motown gear their comics towards super-hero fans?
WQell, basically, I think most of them were starstruck by the success of
Valiant and Image, which lead them to believe that a company could
successfully compete with the Two 900 pound gorillas in the superhero market.
> There are very few
>attempts (Paradox is one) to get the general public involved with comics or
>to expand the consumer base. They almost always go after the same group;
>the *comic-buying population.* They all try to grab a slice of the same
>pie, instead of going out and buying more pies!
And the problem is that most attempts to reach out have not been successful
at all, even at the Big Two. Marvel actually tried this with things like
Moonshadow and Yuppies from Hell and Star Comics back in the 80s and was
unsuccessful. DC tried Piranha Press (which actually produced some great stuff
like Gregory and Why I Hate Saturn, and was unsuccessful. Yes, they would have
marketed their products more, but ultimately no company can keep pushing
things that are not sucessful.
Fantagraphics produces some of the most groundbreaking comics in the
industry. They are certainly not aimed at the regular comic buyers, and they
sell so poorly in general that FG sells porn to subsidize these comics.
Dark Horse has had some success selling non-superhero comics, but the basis of
their cash flow is things like movie adaptations of their comics, and vice
versa. Their biggest successes are things like Aliens, Predator etc., which
are only one step removed from hero titles.
There are some examples of success: Maus, Sandman and UC, but in all three
cases, it took extraordinary talents.
And DC did follow up on the success of Swamp Thing (and later Sandman) and
have created a whole set of fantasy titles. While I've more or less given up
on Marvel, DC is trying to produce diverse material. Ultimately though, its
the responsibility of the readers to buy the Stuck Rubber Baby's and the Mr
Punch's, or we won't see more of them.
Imitating success is very common in the comic book industry. Back in the early
40s it was superheroes. In the late 40s, it was romance/western. Then
Horror/crime, and then superheroes again. If soap opera (to take an example)
becomes popular, trust me, you'll see dozens of imitators.
> However, shouldn't it be the responsibility of the publisher to expand their
> consumer base not some fan-based group? It seems very short-sighted to
>ignore half of your potential customers.
Try 80 %. Except Disney, none of the companies even try and target
non-Americans much (Marvel has some Canadians, and DC some Brits, but that's
it).
Abhijit
NEtRENCHERPRIME
just because of this thread. I thought "oh yeah, we need a female
character". Of course, it was pretty hard crowding her into a book we
had already finished, but the main problem was that we lost sight of
extra characters in issue one because we just wanted to introduce the two
main ones. Of course, the female character is now a main character
as well, although she only appears on the last page of issue one,
she ends up practically killing the two mains, and she is definately
slated for later issues. The main problem was we just plum forgot.
Could this be the problem with Firebrand? I read it, and I loved it. It
seems to me that the first book was crammed with introduction, though,
and maybe that is why no female characters were seen in issue one. I
have no doubt that we will see some soon.
NEtRENCHERPRIME
--
***** NEtRENCHERPRIME: Kevin Olson http://www.mcn.net/~netrencher/ *****
**** THE SHADOW STRIKES FROM HIS INNER SANCTUM WEB-SITE ****
*** http://www.webmarketing.com/spider/shadow/shdwhp.html ***
**** "WHERE IS THE CHOICE WHEN MY FREEDOM'S DESCRIBED BY MY FEAR?" ****
***** WORLD OF SKIN: FROM THE ALBUM, "TEN SONGS FOR ANOTHER WORLD" *****
Johanna Draper
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput <fire...@panix.com> wrote:
>FIREBRAND #1
I reviewed this for Smash magazine, so I won't get into everything I
said there here, but you saw the first thing that was obvious to me as
well -- this is a World Without Women. And think about how silly that
is. This is set in a hospital for a good part of the story, and we
don't even see one female nurse. (I'm not stereotyping, just aware of
the way most hospitals still work. I'd have loved to see a female
doctor or administrator also.) Totally unrealistic, and insulting to the
majority of the population. (His sister, a dead little girl, doesn't
count.)
Not to mention how bad a blend of genres this was. I would have liked to
have seen this book without the grafted-on superheroics. It was working for
me as a cop book.
>(The one panel showing him stocking his fridge with these cartons while
>insisting to his older brother Javier on the phone that "I do *not*
>obsess" was what sold me on this book. *Very* nice example of "showing,
>not telling.")
But so damn obvious. This was construction by the numbers. Competant,
well-crafted, but there's no art to it. No spirit.
>has become the "project" of Dr. Newton Lovell (who could also have been
>female... okay, I'll refasten the latch),
Stop apologizing, Elayne. This is a major problem with the book, and a
legitimate criticism.
Overall, it's an interesting attempt at a little variety, but not much
to recommend, I thought.
Johanna
dle2
Kynn Bartlett (ky...@idyllmtn.com) wrote:
>However, given that I can enjoy a well-written and well-drawn comic,
>whether it's about a black man or Latino woman or whatever, I end up
>puzzled when I hear that John might not feel "welcome" reading a comic
>with a white hero, or that Elayne feels "excluded" by male characters.
>Should I feel the same way, if I read a comic (such as the latest Icon)
>and notice that all the characters are black? Is that a comic that's
>"not for me?"
I can't speak for Elayne, but one thing that bugs me is a lack of balance.
It's not so much that a *specific* comic doesn't have females or blacks or
Indians or whatever; it's that comics as a whole (super-heros in
particular) don't have many members from these groups. I don't expect
every comic to have an Asian, an African-American, an Esikmo, a Native
American, or even a white male, but I think these groups should have some
representation *somewhere,* and hopefully as major characters, not just in
supporting roles. So it's more of a *big picture* thing for me.
And when I say *female* I mean a normal looking female. :) To take your
example of Icon, I would have no problem reading a comic with a
predominately black cast, providing the story is good. However, if the
characters sat around eating fried chicken and watermelon, then I'd say the
book is "not for me." (In fact, I'd say the book isn't for anyone. <g>)
>I've written to Elayne about this recently, and while I think I
>understand her point of view, I'm still not convinced that I agree with
>it, really. Comments?
Well, I don't think you have to agree with it, but this is a concept that's
more complex than what can be summed up in a few lines of post. It took me
about a month of e-mail's before I understood a friend's feelings on the
subject, which eventually made a great deal of sense once I knew where she
was coming from. :)
-Dave Eppley
dle2
Yeah, I probably shouldn't have included it in that list. I just figured that
since it's made it to issue 12 and it was recommended to me by a female, it
must have some kind of support base. How about Hepcats or Wandering Star?
>dl...@itc.cc.bellcore.com (dle2) writes:
>> ella. These books are relative *big sellers* for indy presses,
>> yet you don't see the majors rushing out to imitate them.
>
>A big seller for the Indy presses doesn't mean a big seller overall. Love and
>Rockets (a stable comic, which has been in publication since 1983) has only
>modest sales. Very few B & W Indys sell over 12,000 copies. Bone, Cerebus and
>Kabuki are the only ones that come to mind immediately.
Well, I don't think it's fair to compare the super-hero market with the indy
market. 12,000 may not mean much to DC, but it's a big hit as far as indy's
go. Just about every comic shop carries DC/Marvel/Image but not many carry
SIP or Ragmop or L&R or Bone or Wandering Star. It's hard for something to
sell if the public can't find it or doesn't know about it.
Now suppose Wandering Star started under the Marvel label, and was given the
standard publicity push that Marvel gives most of it's new titles; it's seems
possible that it might sell more than 12,000 copies due to wider availability,
company name recognition and more publicity. In fact, I'd be curious as to
how well Bone sells now that it's under Image.
Obviously 12,000 copies to a marketing person means don't bother, but to me it
means that there is a demand for that type of book. If I remember right, Star
Trek: The Next Generation never generated the ratings of a Rosanne or Fraiser,
but it's success was enough to spawn dozens of knock-offs.
>And following a quality product isn't that easy.
Agreed, as witnessed by the movie industry. However, there isn't really an
attempt to produce an inferior knock-off. When Bone and other indies got
big, Marvel tried to get their market share not via direct competion in those
genre's, but by trying to shove them off the shelf with more super-heros.
>Because of the fans. If any particular genre didn't survive these
>"shakeouts", a part of the blame must go the fans who didn't care enough for
>it to survive. Kynn's statement is a bit extreme, but its not all that
>inaccurate historically.
I agree that fans are needed for stuff to thrive. However, I think
the companies bear some blame for not reaching out beyond comic shops and
comic fans to promote stuff. It's akin to how a movie will get rave reviews,
yet no one sees it because the movie studio didn't bother to promote it.
Marvel also bears some blame for taking their product out of the marketplace
and placing it in speciality shops. One of the reasons I dropped out of
comics as a kid was because Micronauts switched to Comic-Shop-Only status. I
bought my books from the newstand and didn't have easy access to a comic shop
(I was only 12) and I remember being very disapointed and angry with Marvel.
I felt like they didn't care about me as a customer.
>>There are very few
>>attempts (Paradox is one) to get the general public involved with comics or
>>to expand the consumer base. They almost always go after the same group;
>>the *comic-buying population.* They all try to grab a slice of the same
>>pie, instead of going out and buying more pies!
>
>And the problem is that most attempts to reach out have not been successful
>at all, even at the Big Two. Marvel actually tried this with things like
>Moonshadow and Yuppies from Hell and Star Comics back in the 80s and was
>unsuccessful. DC tried Piranha Press (which actually produced some great
>stuff like Gregory and Why I Hate Saturn, and was unsuccessful. Yes, they
>would have marketed their products more, but ultimately no company can keep
>pushing things that are not sucessful.
Question; who did they market these things to? The comic-buying populace or
the general public? If the former group then I don't feel comfortable calling
it unsucessful. It's like saying my roadside vegtable stand is a failure in
California, even though I live in Virginia.
I dropped out of comics just when Epic was starting up, and while I
remembering seeing copies of Spidey and X-men, I never again heard the name
Epic. I think in order to thrive again, comic companies have to break
out of the mold of selling through speciality shops. I'm not exactly sure
*how* to bring the general public in, but I think an attempt should be made.
>Fantagraphics produces some of the most groundbreaking comics in the
>industry. They are certainly not aimed at the regular comic buyers, and they
>sell so poorly in general that FG sells porn to subsidize these comics.
Again, the only time I've seen FG stuff is in comic shops. If I'm not a
comics buyer, of course I'm not going to know about it. If their stuff was
advertised in Rolling Stone or reviewed in Time, maybe we'd see a change.
>Dark Horse has had some success selling non-superhero comics, but the basis
>of their cash flow is things like movie adaptations of their comics, and vice
>versa. Their biggest successes are things like Aliens, Predator etc., which
>are only one step removed from hero titles.
I've said this in another post, but if they make a movie of Concrete, that
could give the industry a big boost. People may look at it and say *this came
from a comic book? What else is out there like that?*
>There are some examples of success: Maus, Sandman and UC, but in all three
>cases, it took extraordinary talents.
What's UC? I agree that it takes talent to make a good product and not every
book is going to be a winner, but there's not really an attempt to produce
Crappy non-super-hero-books! Even though DC is diverse, it's still
predominately genre books: SuperHeros, Fantasy/Magic and Crime Stories.
>And DC did follow up on the success of Swamp Thing (and later Sandman) and
>have created a whole set of fantasy titles.
I wonder if Vertigo would have been as successful if it started as a seperate
imprint, like Epic, rather than evolving from regular DC titles.
My biggest problem with Vertigo is that *Mature Themes = Fantasy/Magic/Occult*
They brought Jonah Hex back and instead of doing a Western story, they did a
monster/magic story in a Western setting. Millenium Fever looked like a
promising love story, but they lost me when they got into demons and
shape-shifting lovers. Bleah. :)
>While I've more or less given up
>on Marvel, DC is trying to produce diverse material.
Do you know how the Paradox books are doing in bookstores?
>Ultimately though, its
>the responsibility of the readers to buy the Stuck Rubber Baby's and the Mr
>Punch's, or we won't see more of them.
Well, not seeing more Mr. Punch's is no big loss. :) However, the publishers
bear a responsibility to make the marketplace aware of their product. It's a
two way street.
>> However, shouldn't it be the responsibility of the publisher to expand
>> their consumer base not some fan-based group? It seems very short-sighted
>> to ignore half of your potential customers.
>
>Try 80 %. Except Disney, none of the companies even try and target
>non-Americans much (Marvel has some Canadians, and DC some Brits, but
>that's it).
True. I spoke with Don Rosa at Mid-Ohio and he lamated over how Donald Duck
sells tremendously well in every country except England and the U.S.A.
-Dave Eppley
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
: On 16 Dec 1995, Elayne Wechsler-Chaput wrote:
: > But I can see Firebrand as either gender, and I can certainly see
: > mixed-gender supporting casts in just about any comic book. When a book
: > doesn't have *any* women in the supporting cast, it's a bit jarring to
: > me, and often makes me feel like I'm not really welcome as a reader.
: > - Elayne
: Thats wierd. There are almost no Indians in comics, never affected me
: that much. Maybe gender has more affect or something...
I think it might. I don't know the percentage of Indians in this
country, but women are something like 51% of the population. When a
comic omits the *majority* of people living in this country, that's
something I tend to notice.
It also has a lot to do with *how* and *why* one reads. I read escapist
literature in great measure because, well, I want to escape. I can't
escape to a place where I don't feel welcome.
: At least you got Wonder Woman, I guess...
At least. And I like the current Wonder Woman series a lot. But that
almost sounds like throwing crumbs, you know? Books shouldn't feature
women for the primary reason of placating folks or "keeping score" or
being "PC" or whatever the current buzzword is - they should feature
women because it just doesn't make sense that every major character in the
immediate vicinity of someone is a guy. It's a little lacking in
imagination, I think.
Johanna Draper
<Abhiji...@transarc.com> wrote:
>fire...@panix.com (Elayne Wechsler-Chaput) writes:
>> I think it might. I don't know the percentage of Indians in this
>> country, but women are something like 51% of the population.
>
Sure there is: we're talking about American artifacts that are meant to
reflect at least in part this society.
>Bear in mind that Disney and Tintin comics (both of which
>have a lot of globe hopping) are phenomenally popular all over the world.
I don't know about Tintin, but I suspect the funny animals of Disney have a
lot to do with greater acceptance.
Johanna
Johanna Draper
<Abhiji...@transarc.com> wrote:
>I wasn't aware that Strange Attractors sold particularly well (I tried
>a few issues and wouldn't recommend it: I found it too goofy).
It's made it to issue 12, pretty good for a small indy. And I would
*highly* recommend it. It's fabulous and multi-layered, with strong female
characters and a true sense of wonder combined with scifi adventure.
>In a sense therefore, its not really so much a question of "Why did other
>genres die out ?" so much as "Why did superheroes survive ? ". Answer:
>Because of the fans.
And the licensing. And the company support. It's not as simple as you make
it out to be.
Johanna
Abhiji...@transarc.com
tr...@bu.edu (Mike zimbouski) writes:
>
> So how _do_ we get the rest of the world to acknowledge that comics can be a
> valid art form? I'd start sticking Invisibles flyers under people's
> windshields if I thought it would help (and if I had the money),
It takes money to stick Invisibles flyers under windshields :-) ? Anyway, I
know you were joking but something like Invisibles is not likely to go over
well with most mainstream audiences because of things like sex, drugs,
torture, transvestites, violence, the Marquis deSade, incest etc. Not to
mention the highly complex storyline.
> particularly when you have people hyping the hell out of DC vs. Marvel as
> opposed to the amount of promotion something like Stuck Rubber Baby gets
I think we need to get used to the fact that things like DC vs. Marvel (big
hyped mega events) are likely to remain for a while, although hopefully their
frequency will get less. Getting new blood into the industry is absolutely
essential and this is one way of doing it.
Also, bear in mind, that even in books and movies, the most hyped ones are
things like Terminator 2 , Jackie Collins' latest novel, Jurassic Park etc. Big
events and bestsellers provide money to subsidize more far-out stuff and that
is something which DC at least seems to be doing. As I've pointed out before,
Fantagraphics uses porn to subsidize their more experimental stuff and Dark
Horse uses their movie adaptations.
> I'm aware the promotions department are working to promote these kinds of
> products as well; it's just that the main focus seems to be on what they think
> will sell, as opposed to things that might appeal to a broader base of
> customers.)
Unfortunately though, historically a lot of things which might have a broader
base don't sell. The marvellous _Our_Cancer_Year_ and has only limited sales.
So what can readers do ? Buy and recommend to friends more far out stuff. And
I don't want to hear excuses about prices (a general comment, not directed at
Mike) from the non-starving. Stuck Rubber Baby is 25.00, but its 12 times the
size of a 2 dollar comic. Anyone who wants more diversity must dig deep (and
give up superhero comics for a couple of weeks maybe) to support marvellous
material like this.
Finally, do blame the publishers, but only when they deserve it. Blame DC for
the Mister Punch fiasco from last year, but don't blame them for the
megaevents.
Abhijit
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
: My brother and I are doing a comic book, and we put in a female character
: character". Of course, it was pretty hard crowding her into a book we
Well, see, Kevin, that's part of the problem. Your heart is in the right
place, but because it's kind of putting the cart before the horse (oh,
okay, putting the horse after the cart) you wind up with a very awkward
story. The best thing for you might very well be to either wait until a
logical moment when a female character would surface in your story, or
(and this is my preferred way) make one (or more) of your male characters
female, *keeping the same character traits*. Seriously ask yourself, "Is
there a reason why none of the characters *we already have* can't be a
girl or a woman?"
: but the main problem was that we lost sight of
: extra characters in issue one because we just wanted to introduce the two
: main ones.
Well, if you only have two main characters, adding one more shouldn't
crowd the field *too* much... <G>
: Of course, the female character is now a main character
: as well, although she only appears on the last page of issue one,
: she ends up practically killing the two mains, and she is definately
: slated for later issues.
Glad to hear that it apparently worked out well for you story-wise.
: The main problem was we just plum forgot.
: Could this be the problem with Firebrand? I read it, and I loved it. It
: seems to me that the first book was crammed with introduction, though,
: and maybe that is why no female characters were seen in issue one.
Well, again, one of my gripes was that nobody thought to make any of the
five main characters - Sanchez, his brother, his partner the doctor and
the benefactor - female instead of male. The first issue *was* plenty
crowded with exposition, but it also introduced a *lot* of people, all
guys. As if the DCU needed that many more men. :)
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
: Jim Smith <jasm...@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> wrote:
: >Do women have a gender bias when _they_ create characters?
: I do, but that's because there are already so many male characters out
: there, and I'm trying to create something I would want to read.
I do as well, because I don't think I write male characters very well
yet. This is something I'm working on quite diligently.
And also, what Johanna said. <g>
Steven Chaput
: Hardly. Paradox Press, Vertigo, Dark Horse, Malibu, Bongo, Archie,
: Disney...
: The marketplace is rife with nonsuperhero comics.
Come on, Mike! You know as well as the rest of us that it's almost
impossible to find non-super-hero stuff in your average shop. While it's
available many shops don't order anything besides mainstream Marvel/DCs
and Image. Archie, Disney and Bongo are often hard to find, and
generally the smaller publishers are represented by the likes of Evil
Ed/Lady Death or Vamperotika.
Posters of half-naked woman are on the walls and often on the entrance
door itself. How many woman are going to feel welcome in such a place.
Unless, of course, you're playing Devil's Advocate I think your off the mark.
Steve
--
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
sh...@panix.com "When you say Dylan, he thinks you mean that guy on
90210, whoever he is. The guy ain't got no kultcha."
- me, with apologies to Paul Simon
fredrick b. chary
>frederick chary (fch...@ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu) wrote:
>: Hardly. Paradox Press, Vertigo, Dark Horse, Malibu, Bongo, Archie,
>: Disney...
>
>: The marketplace is rife with nonsuperhero comics.
>
>Come on, Mike! You know as well as the rest of us that it's almost
>impossible to find non-super-hero stuff in your average shop. While it's
I disagree. Every shop I have been to in the last six months (and
since I was in Friendly Frank's ballywick, I have had to scavenge a
little) has had works from all the publishers I named prominently
displayed. Are you telling me it's *hard* for you to find Star Wars or
Star Trek or B5 adaptations? You can't find the Vertigo titles? Archie
is hidden in your shop? VIZ is out of sight?
Heck, does Topps even *publish* a superhero title? The X-Files, The
Lone Ranger books. There *plenty* of non-superhero titles.
>available many shops don't order anything besides mainstream Marvel/DCs
>and Image. Archie, Disney and Bongo are often hard to find, and
>generally the smaller publishers are represented by the likes of Evil
>Ed/Lady Death or Vamperotika.
You know shops which don't order Dark Horse or Topps? How do they stay open?
>Posters of half-naked woman are on the walls and often on the entrance
>door itself. How many woman are going to feel welcome in such a place.
This has nothing to do with my point that there are many
non-superhero titles being published.
>Unless, of course, you're playing Devil's Advocate I think your off the mark.
Feel free :)
Mike, using Fred's account.
dle2
fredrick b. chary (fch...@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu) wrote:
>In article <4b6dto$f...@panix.com>, Steven Chaput <sh...@panix.com> wrote:
>>frederick chary (fch...@ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu) wrote:
>>: Hardly. Paradox Press, Vertigo, Dark Horse, Malibu, Bongo, Archie,
>>: Disney...
>>
>>: The marketplace is rife with nonsuperhero comics.
>>
>>Come on, Mike! You know as well as the rest of us that it's almost
>>impossible to find non-super-hero stuff in your average shop. While it's
>
>I disagree. Every shop I have been to in the last six months (and
>since I was in Friendly Frank's ballywick, I have had to scavenge a
>little) has had works from all the publishers I named prominently
>displayed.
Define *prominently displayed*. <g> I've been in shops that have 70-90%
Marvel/DC/Image displayed in their main racks, with the remaining 10-30%
*independents* (inc. DH, Viz, Topps) shoved towards the back. I don't
count just *having* the comic on the shelf as being prominently displayed.
I've been in two stores that break comics down into genre and some stores
may have a rack or two of *kids comics,* but that's about it for *prominent
display* of non-supes.
>Are you telling me it's *hard* for you to find Star Wars or
>Star Trek or B5 adaptations? You can't find the Vertigo titles? Archie
>is hidden in your shop? VIZ is out of sight?
I've been in stores that haven't heard of Gladstone's Disney titles, ones
that have a few Archie comics on the bottom shelf and some that don't carry
VIZ, Malibu, Bongo, Archie and Paradox. A lot of stores around here are
starting to go the *subs only* route, ordering just enough to fill pull
boxes and maybe one or two extra copies for the shelf, so non-super-heros
are going to be even harder to find.
>Heck, does Topps even *publish* a superhero title? The X-Files, The
>Lone Ranger books. There *plenty* of non-superhero titles.
I look at the overall image projected by the shop and most stores project a
*super-hero* image. Yes, if you look beneath the surface, you'll find
non-super-hero titles, but first impressions are what count. Next time you
enter a shop, look at it as if you've never been in a comic store before.
If the primary image that strikes you is *non-super-hero* than tell me
where that store is, 'cause I'd like to see it. :)
-Dave Eppley
Johanna Draper
Jim Smith <jasm...@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>I think (and I admit I don't know much about this field) that when a male
>comes up with a character, he starts with the basic pattern for himself,
>and works his way from there. And since most writers aren't tough and
>strong and heroic, very little of his nature is retained, most notably
>gender.
A very interesting point. You're suggesting writing as wish fulfillment or
what if, correct?
>Do women have a gender bias when _they_ create characters?
I do, but that's because there are already so many male characters out
there, and I'm trying to create something I would want to read.
Johanna
Abhiji...@transarc.com
fire...@panix.com (Elayne Wechsler-Chaput) writes:
> : Thats wierd. There are almost no Indians in comics, never affected me
> : that much. Maybe gender has more affect or something...
>
> I think it might. I don't know the percentage of Indians in this
> country, but women are something like 51% of the population.
There's no reason to restrict your percentages to merely this country. The
population of India is 3 times that of the United States, that of mainland
China 4 times [1]. Bear in mind that Disney and Tintin comics (both of which
have a lot of globe hopping) are phenomenally popular all over the world.
[Although I agree that gender has a stronger effect].
>When a comic omits the *majority* of people living in this country, that's
> something I tend to notice.
When a comic (or an entire comics universe) omits 95 % of the people of the
world, it should be even MORE noticeable.
> women for the primary reason of placating folks or "keeping score" or
> being "PC" or whatever the current buzzword is - they should feature
> women because it just doesn't make sense that every major character in the
> immediate vicinity of someone is a guy. It's a little lacking in
> imagination, I think.
The same principle holds, even more strongly, for including non-Americans. It
makes no sense that practically all superheroes are American or American
resident or psuedo-Americans (someone like Fire, for instance). Logically,
there should be a lot more heroes from mainland China and India. Except for
the new Bwawna Beast, and possibly Dr. Mist, DC has no 20th century character
from Africa (I dont count people related to ancient Egypt). Until very
recently, the only Canadian character of any note at DC was Plastique.
And, of course, the treatment of Arabs at DC is disgraceful, since (with the
exception of the Arab American Sinbad) they're almost all terrorists or own
harems and have executioners and the like. Gaiman mentioned once that he often
met muslims at signings who said that Sandman #50 ("Ramadan") was the only
American comic which portrayed Arabs in anything like a positive light.
My Point ? Oh, yes. BRING BACK BAT-HOMBRE !!!
Abhijit
[1] Oddly enough, 3 of the 4 Indian characters that DC has or had are female,
(Arani, Maya and Jinx). The only character from mainland China who's appeared
in the last few years was also female (the woman in Millenium).
Mike zimbouski
: How are women supposed to buy something they don't know exists? In a
: your product.
So how _do_ we get the rest of the world to acknowledge that comics can be a
valid art form? I'd start sticking Invisibles flyers under people's
windshields if I thought it would help (and if I had the money), but getting
comics accepted as a mainstream form of entertainment is a sticky wicket,
particularly when you have people hyping the hell out of DC vs. Marvel as
opposed to the amount of promotion something like Stuck Rubber Baby gets (and
I'm aware the promotions department are working to promote these kinds of
products as well; it's just that the main focus seems to be on what they think
will sell, as opposed to things that might appeal to a broader base of
customers.)
: If your primary driver is what sells, then most magazines would be
: worthless pieces of trash, filled with women in skimpy bathing suits and
: very little content.
Um...isn't that...oh, nevermind.
Mike Z
--
"We're just violent, not angry; we'd just as soon tip things over as watch
them topple by themselves." --Trumans Water
"It's a brand-new era, it feels great; it's a brand-new era, but it came too
late." --Stephen Malkmus
dle2
Ooo, thanks. I like that word, it sums me up well. :)
>> How are women supposed to buy something they don't know exists? In a
>> ghettoized industry, you can't blame the buying public for not knowing
>> about your product.
>
>So how _do_ we get the rest of the world to acknowledge that comics can be a
>valid art form? I'd start sticking Invisibles flyers under people's
>windshields if I thought it would help (and if I had the money), but getting
>comics accepted as a mainstream form of entertainment is a sticky wicket,
>particularly when you have people hyping the hell out of DC vs. Marvel as
>opposed to the amount of promotion something like Stuck Rubber Baby gets (and
>I'm aware the promotions department are working to promote these kinds of
>products as well; it's just that the main focus seems to be on what they
>think will sell, as opposed to things that might appeal to a broader base of
>customers.)
Good question and one without easy answers. Here's some suggestions/thoughts.
1) Talk about non-superhero comics with your friends/co-workers. My office-
mate finally saw the light when I gave him the old comics/artform -
superhero/genre spiel. Just like we don't say TV is for soap opera fans, we
need to convince people that comics is a valid form of entertainment that cane
encompass the same genres that movies/TV/video does.
2) Did anyone at DC try to get Stuck Rubber Baby reviewed by a non-comics
publication? (i.e. Entertainment Weekly, Time, People) Inbred promoting,
such as Previews, gets you nowhere in developing your consumer base. Comic
companies should attempt to build some links to the press. EW has run some
small articles on comics; imagine if they did a cover story on Astro City or
SIP or Love and Rockets or Concrete.
3) If Concrete gets made into a movie, that may be a big boost. As far as I
can remember, most, if not all, movie/TV adaptations have been from super-
hero/action comic books. Thus the stereotype of comics = super-heros is
perpetuated. Concete, OTOH, is primarily about relationships and life and
self. People will look at it and go *this came from a comic book?*
4) This won't increase non-superhero sales, but put out digest versions in
supermarkets. Archie remains visible to the public because of this. I got
back into comics not because I got nostalgic and wandered into a comic shop; I
saw a copy of Marvels at Toys 'R Us. That led me to the shops and
subsequently to my discovery of the diversity of comicdom. A digest version
may be picked up by someone and pull them in as well. Say a father buys
a Spidey Digest for his son; the son wants more; they go to a comic shop; pop
discovers SIP or Love and Rockets or Astro City, etc...
5) Let Martin Wagner kill off Superman in the pages of Hepcats. ;)
Overall, I think the best thing to do is generate awareness in non-super-hero
comics. Store owners can put posters of Wandering Star or Hepcats or Shades
of Gray or Concrete in their store windows instead of Spawn and Spidey. Comic
companies should try to get non-superhero comics press time, or maybe you
could write to a magazine asking them to take a look at Stuck Rubber Baby or
comics in general. Show your friends copies of your favorite comic; some of
my friends have actually been surprised that non-super-hero comics exist.
That's my $.02. Anyone else have any ideas?
-Dave Eppley
Johanna Draper
dle2 <dl...@itc.cc.bellcore.com> wrote:
>2) Did anyone at DC try to get Stuck Rubber Baby reviewed by a non-comics
>publication?
I've seen several mainstream reviews of SRB, as well as meeting the author
at a local Borders reading. Attempts were made, and fairly successfully
considering the resistance, I think.
>Overall, I think the best thing to do is generate awareness in non-super-hero
>comics.
Good point. Another good one is to sell comics in more places than comics
stores -- music stores or alternative bookstores or whatever.
Unfortunately, this is not a suggestion many retailers can get behind.
Johanna
Johanna Draper
Hepcats? Bwa ha ha. I love the book, I think it's a great non-super comic,
but it's not a great example to use for building the audience because of
the delays it's gone through.
>>There are some examples of success: Maus, Sandman and UC, but in all three
>>cases, it took extraordinary talents.
>
>What's UC?
Understanding Comics.
And I'm not denigrating any of the above talents, but I'm uncomfortable
with this statement, because it could be taken to say "if your indy isn't
selling to a mass audience, it's solely because you're not good enough."
>>While I've more or less given up
>>on Marvel, DC is trying to produce diverse material.
>
>Do you know how the Paradox books are doing in bookstores?
Not well, from what I hear. Their format is a problem -- bookstores don't
want to carry them because they're not single units. But I just may have
heard about an aberration.
Johanna
Johanna Draper
>However, given that I can enjoy a well-written and well-drawn comic,
>whether it's about a black man or Latino woman or whatever, I end up
>puzzled when I hear that John might not feel "welcome" reading a comic
>with a white hero, or that Elayne feels "excluded" by male characters.
You have plenty of examples of people like you, Kynn -- the majority of
comics feature white males. The odd example of something else doesn't
bother you because you have all these other places to turn.
But when I see a comic that has *no* women, I wonder what planet the
writer's on.
Not to mention that I get really tired of always identifying with a
protaganist who's got the wrong chromosome setup. Sometimes, it's ok, it's
good practice identifying with a variety of people. But always? It leads
one into feelings of loneliness and questions of "what's wrong with me,
that there's no one else out there like me?" It's a constant reminder that
you're the Other.
Johanna
Sean MacDonald
>[1] Oddly enough, 3 of the 4 Indian characters that DC has or had are female,
>(Arani, Maya and Jinx). The only character from mainland China who's appeared
>in the last few years was also female (the woman in Millenium).
>
Well, of course.
You get two token characters in one: an Indian *and* a woman.
This also used to happen all the time in advertising: you'd
see a bunch of white boys and one black girl.
-SM
Johanna Draper
John Todd <jto...@cc.swarthmore.edu> wrote:
>In article <4atk0o$l...@panix.com>, fire...@panix.com (Elayne
>Wechsler-Chaput) wrote:
>>When a book doesn't have *any* women in the supporting cast, it's a bit
>>jarring to me, and often makes me feel like I'm not really welcome as a
>>reader.
>
>almost *never* include them?
The same way -- that the book doesn't reflect a world that's realistic to
them.
Johanna
Johanna Draper
The industry as a whole has some, yes. But my marketplace, and that of many
other readers, doesn't. Shops order sub copies only, and then only after
much prodding ("I know this issue exists, my friend bought it last week,
*get it for me*").
Johanna
Kirby Krueger
I buy this rationale. It's incredibly rare that a character, in comics,
literature, or the movies, causes me to think "This person is like me."
I can't think of any character in any comic I'm reading right now that
I actually identify with. There are many I like, many I don't, but never,
ever am I drawn to characters because of similarites.
Because, even though I'm a white male, that's not my identity. Not at
all. I actually find myself 'identifying' with non-white and specifically
non-male characters more often than with white males, because of
personalities. Now, it could be that I'm very odd, and I'd be the last
to deny that I have very little in common with any stereotypical males.
I'd love to see male characters that had character. That cared about
ethics and morality. Males that were passionate about their beliefs.
Males that didn't think women were conquests, and that fighting was
a good thing. Males that didn't think professional sports were any
substitute for entertainment. Alas, these qualities are often as rare
as women in comics.
So, my conclusion could be that instead of a lack of women to identify with
in comics, there's a lack of compelling characters to identify with
in comics. I'm not going to deny in any way that there aren't enough
well-written women in comics. There aren't. I will deny the assertion
that men have people to identify with, and women don't. Men don't, or
at least I don't, either.
--
Kirby Krueger, kir...@peak.org
<*> "Most .sigs this small can't open their own jump gate."
RD Francis
> >because I've thought "Well, let's make this one a woman for a change,"
> >once too often :)
>
> Nothing wrong with that. I wish more comic writers thought like that.
Some do, of course. I believe the technical term for this is "Claremont
syndrome" :-)
(Rumor has it that, around the Claremont/Byrne days on X-MEN, Chris would say
"Why can't this character be a woman?" at least once a day....
R David Francis
Hyper ACTIVE, inc.
Matthew F Johnson
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput (fire...@panix.com) writes:
> Joseph T Arendt (jar...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu) wrote:
>
> : I like the idea of a female test pilot becoming Green Lantern.
>
> I've been playfully "lobbying" on and off for awhile to be written in as
> a comic book character somewhere, and my preference has always been to be
> the first female Earth-based Green Lantern. The anointing of Kyle Raynor
> was probably one of the biggest missed-opportunity disappointments for me
> as a female reader - there's no reason a woman can't be this sector's
> GL. And you can betcha we wouldn't have significant others stuffed in
> fridges in that version!
>
Hmm, I was thinking of running a contest to let a reader be the
visual model of a villain in my upcoming book _Neon_. And we do have a
supporting character that hasn't been designed yet... but honestly, wasn't
being in Legion #35 enough for you?
--
Matthew F. Johnson
I'm not going up without my crayons.
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
: I like the idea of a female test pilot becoming Green Lantern.
I've been playfully "lobbying" on and off for awhile to be written in as
a comic book character somewhere, and my preference has always been to be
the first female Earth-based Green Lantern. The anointing of Kyle Raynor
was probably one of the biggest missed-opportunity disappointments for me
as a female reader - there's no reason a woman can't be this sector's
GL. And you can betcha we wouldn't have significant others stuffed in
fridges in that version!
: Was there a point to this? I liked Jesse Quick being chose as
: a supposed successor for Flash, even if it was just a trick to motivate
: Impulse.
And to tweak the readers. ;) I wouldn't mind Jesse *or* Linda being
Wally's successor, frankly.
DJ McEwenX
Wechsler-Chaput) writes:
>At least. And I like the current Wonder Woman series a lot. But that
>almost sounds like throwing crumbs, you know? Books shouldn't feature
>women for the primary reason of placating folks or "keeping score" or
>being "PC" or whatever the current buzzword is - they should feature
>women because it just doesn't make sense that every major character in
the
>immediate vicinity of someone is a guy. It's a little lacking in
>imagination, I think.
I don't think Wonder Woman was an attempt at "PC" or "keeping score." If
WW didn't sell, you wouldn't have to opportunity to be reading it! The
fact that Perez started v3 Wonder Woman and Byrne's doing it now goes a
long way toward keeping those sales up! Believe me, WW's NOT a "crumb."
(OK, so you'd didn't explicity say it was, but I'm just making sure!)
Daniel
Michael Ellis
>Abhiji...@transarc.com wrote:
>: When a comic (or an entire comics universe) omits 95 % of the people
>: of the world, it should be even MORE noticeable.
>I don't know about this. On the one hand, yes, of course. On the other
>hand, you're selling primarily to Americans, right? (Although, considering
>how many American comics sell in Canada and Britain, I should think
>there'd be more Canadian and British supers.) Look at manga - or at least
>the manga that's translated for American audiences. Most characters in
>manga are presumably Japanese, yes? (Mike Ellis, can you verify?)
Varies mostly by author and by subject. Everyone 'speaks' Japanese, of
course, for the same reasons that everyone you run into in Star Trek speaks
English, with a few interesting exceptions. Again, though, the field is
so much broader that you inevitably run into more 'foreign' characters than
you do by comparison in U.S. Comics.
Typically (not always) the main character is Japanese. If the story happens
in Japan, then most other folks are Japanese. After that, anything goes.
If the story is not set in Japan (and there are lots and lots of these),
then the main character is *likely* to be Japanese, but not necessarily.
(Area 88, which is reasonably well known, is a pretty good example. The
lead character is Japanese, but just about everyone else is foreign, and
it takes place in a foreign country. This lets the author maintain a
'Japanese' viewpoint while exploring a foreign environment. This is not
unlike the U.S. movie industry using a white, male protragonist while
interacting with a non-white world. Parts of Forrest Gump come to mind,
along with Angel Heart, Chinatown, and even Big Trouble in Little China.)
On the whole, I think the Japanese do a much better job of incorporating
non-Japanese characters into their stories than writers in the U.S. do
of incorporating non-americans. But there are some caveats. SF (and Sci-Fi)
stuff that happens in the future is anything goes. If it's a 'high school'
story of any stripe, it almost always happens in a Japanese high school
(be it sports, romance, horror, fantasy, politics, adventure, SF, etc.)
And most, if not all, business and 'ladies comics' center on Japanese
characters. (Japan, Inc., if you can find it, is a great example of
this.)
So I'd say that overall, the focus is usually on Japanese characters, but
not as much as U.S. comics focus on American characters. OTOH, sometimes
the focus on non-Japanese characters (particularly characters not coming
from Europe or America) is often stereotypical, even outright offensive
in ways that you don't usually see in U.S. comics. (I can think of scads
of titles that involve reasonably good portrayals of Americans and Europeans,
but very few that have good portrayals of, say, Chinese. This does seem
to be improving, though, according to people who are better read than I
in the field.)
OTOH, the treatment of women (at least in the manga I read) goes from
extremely good (typically shoujo stuff, written by women) to not-great
(shonen titles, written by men for boys). Still, even a 'blood and boobs'
title like 'Gunsmith Cats' features great action, some fairly complex
female characters who are *good* at what they do, and general competency
on the part of the female characters.
Actually, I'd love for Elayne and Johanna to read a few issues of Gunsmith
Cats and tell me what they thought. Maybe I'll bring some of Dark Horse's
translated issues along with me to Philly, if I end up going. (Along with
a good pair of track shoes, just in case.)
Mike
--
Michael K. Ellis
mke...@mordor.com
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
: fire...@panix.com (Elayne Wechsler-Chaput) writes:
: > : Thats wierd. There are almost no Indians in comics, never affected me
: > : that much. Maybe gender has more affect or something...
: >
: > I think it might. I don't know the percentage of Indians in this
: > country, but women are something like 51% of the population.
: There's no reason to restrict your percentages to merely this country.
For purposes of the DCU and this particular discussion, I thought it best
that I do so, since most of their characters (including supers) are
Americans.
: When a comic (or an entire comics universe) omits 95 % of the people
: of the world, it should be even MORE noticeable.
I don't know about this. On the one hand, yes, of course. On the other
hand, you're selling primarily to Americans, right? (Although, considering
how many American comics sell in Canada and Britain, I should think
there'd be more Canadian and British supers.) Look at manga - or at least
the manga that's translated for American audiences. Most characters in
manga are presumably Japanese, yes? (Mike Ellis, can you verify?)
But your points are well taken.
: And, of course, the treatment of Arabs at DC is disgraceful...
The treatment of Arabs in most media is disgraceful.
I guess, at some point, purveyors of literature ought to ask themselves
how much they want that literature to mirror society (i.e., most of the
U.S. news media's heavy concentration on white, male Americans) and how
much they want it to rise above. When you're talking about escapist
literature, showing a world slightly better (we hope) than the one in
which we're actually living, I'd opt for the latter every time.
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
: I can't speak for Elayne...
Sure you can. You're KISAM!. And KISAM! Speaks for everyone. :)
: but one thing that bugs me is a lack of balance.
Yes, me too, especially when you're talking about over half the
population being so severely underrepresented.
: It's not so much that a *specific* comic doesn't have females or blacks or
: Indians or whatever; it's that comics as a whole (super-heros in
: particular) don't have many members from these groups.
Nor do the rest of our major mass media.
Dwight Williams
> Abhiji...@transarc.com wrote:
>
> : fire...@panix.com (Elayne Wechsler-Chaput) writes:
> : > : Thats wierd. There are almost no Indians in comics, never affected me
> : > : that much. Maybe gender has more affect or something...
> : >
> : > I think it might. I don't know the percentage of Indians in this
> : > country, but women are something like 51% of the population.
>
> : There's no reason to restrict your percentages to merely this country.
Indeed not. But then I have a vested interest in seeing to that, don't I?
> For purposes of the DCU and this particular discussion, I thought it best
> that I do so, since most of their characters (including supers) are
> Americans.
>
> : When a comic (or an entire comics universe) omits 95 % of the people
> : of the world, it should be even MORE noticeable.
>
> I don't know about this. On the one hand, yes, of course. On the other
> hand, you're selling primarily to Americans, right? (Although, considering
> how many American comics sell in Canada and Britain, I should think
> there'd be more Canadian and British supers.) Look at manga - or at least
> the manga that's translated for American audiences. Most characters in
> manga are presumably Japanese, yes? (Mike Ellis, can you verify?)
Indeed. I have to wonder if maybe DC worries(Wrongly, natch) about being
hauled into court by any combination of Richard Comely(Capt. Canuck),
Marvel Comics(Alpha Flight, Wolverine), Mark Shainblum(Northguard and
Fleur-de-Lis), and/or Nelvana(Nelvana, Johnny Canuck). Might explain their
disinterest in putting out Canadian heroes for public consumption, if they
were.
> But your points are well taken.
>
> : And, of course, the treatment of Arabs at DC is disgraceful...
>
> The treatment of Arabs in most media is disgraceful.
SOP, it seems. :(
> I guess, at some point, purveyors of literature ought to ask themselves
> how much they want that literature to mirror society (i.e., most of the
> U.S. news media's heavy concentration on white, male Americans) and how
> much they want it to rise above. When you're talking about escapist
> literature, showing a world slightly better (we hope) than the one in
> which we're actually living, I'd opt for the latter every time.
Agreed on that.
--
Dwight Williams(ad...@freenet.carleton.ca) -- Orleans, Ontario, Canada
TrishaDE
I think you're jumping the gun here in criticizing the first issue for
having no women. I always look at first issues differently than subsequent
ones in that the writer and artist have a mere 22 pages to introduce the
main character, some of the supporting cast, the premise AND on top off
all that start off an interesting storyline. I'd rather have these basics
than being overloaded with a cast of thousands right off the bat. Now I'm
not disagreeing with you guys on points such as the doctor could have just
as easily been a woman. But do give the author the benefit of the doubt
that you'll be seeing more characters (women) as this book progresses. I'm
right with you when it comes to wanting to see more women in comics (as
characters, creators and readers) but I'm keeping an open mind on this one
and hope you will too.
Trisha
Bruce Baugh
fire...@panix.com (Elayne Wechsler-Chaput) wrote:
:I've been playfully "lobbying" on and off for awhile to be written in as
:a comic book character somewhere, and my preference has always been to be
:the first female Earth-based Green Lantern.
Last time I was visiting with a friend who lives out of state, he read to me
from an autobiography of a woman who grew up in an Algerian harem, and who was
_very_ uppity, intelligent, and altogether her own woman. Making someone like
her Green Lantern could be very entertaining indeed...
bru...@teleport.com - <*> - http://www.teleport.com/~bruceab/index.html
List Manager, Christlib, where Christian & libertarian concerns hang out
Science fiction readers: Preview S.M. Stirling's DRAKON and WORD OF NIGHT
(the new Marid Audran novel by George Alec Effin ger) at my home page.
Abhiji...@transarc.com
dan...@aurora.cis.upenn.edu (Johanna Draper) writes:
> But when I see a comic that has *no* women, I wonder what planet the
> writer's on.
Fair enough. But then, returning to the point about global superheroes, why
do you seem to think that it's reasonable to exclude 95 % of the world from
the comic ? That's certainly a completely different planet from this one.
Abhijit
Abhiji...@transarc.com
dan...@aurora.cis.upenn.edu (Johanna Draper) writes:
> In article <wkpiKDySM...@transarc.com>,
> <Abhiji...@transarc.com> wrote:
> >fire...@panix.com (Elayne Wechsler-Chaput) writes:
> >> I think it might. I don't know the percentage of Indians in this
> >> country, but women are something like 51% of the population.
> >
> >There's no reason to restrict your percentages to merely this country.
>
> reflect at least in part this society.
Sorry, you're wrong. DC comic books, to take an example, cover the whole world
and have global crisises all the time. Logically, there should be a lot more
non-American heroes than there are.
[ Talking about American artifacts: DC books are or were published in
Canada. Many of DC's top creators are Brits. DC's most celebrated authors of
the past decade have been brits: Moore and Gaiman.]
What reasons do you have to exclude the rest of the world from the "society"
that American comic books are "meant to reflect" ? And does a Universe with
maybe two issues (not series, issues) with non-negative portrayals of Arabs
represent a good reflection ?
Abhijit
Abhiji...@transarc.com
Sean MacDonald <mcdo...@vorteb.math.uab.edu> writes:
> Abhiji...@transarc.com wrote:
>
> >[1] Oddly enough, 3 of the 4 Indian characters that DC has or had are female,
> >(Arani, Maya and Jinx). The only character from mainland China who's appeared
> >in the last few years was also female (the woman in Millenium).
> >
>
> Well, of course.
>
> You get two token characters in one: an Indian *and* a woman.
But the disadvantage is that when you kill them off, you loose both tokens
:-).
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
: 2) Did anyone at DC try to get Stuck Rubber Baby reviewed by a non-comics
: publication? (i.e. Entertainment Weekly, Time, People)
Yes - that's Martha Thomases' job, and she does it very well.
Abhiji...@transarc.com
dl...@itc.cc.bellcore.com ("dle2") writes:
> Abhiji...@transarc.com wrote:
> must have some kind of support base. How about Hepcats or Wandering Star?
Neither sells all that well, as I gather. Of course, the inconstant shedule
is a problem. Especially for Hepcats.
> Marvel also bears some blame for taking their product out of the marketplace
> and placing it in speciality shops.
I'm not sure what you are referring to here. If its the switch to pure direct
distribution, rather than newstands, part of it was because of the economics
of using more expensive formats (which made returnability too expensive) and
the use of more adult material (which made them non-Code). I don't think that
applies to Micronauts, though.
> >Dark Horse has had some success selling non-superhero comics, but the basis
> >of their cash flow is things like movie adaptations of their comics, and vice
> >versa. Their biggest successes are things like Aliens, Predator etc., which
> >are only one step removed from hero titles.
>
> I've said this in another post, but if they make a movie of Concrete, that
> could give the industry a big boost. People may look at it and say *this came
> from a comic book? What else is out there like that?*
As long as its not a B movie :-).
> My biggest problem with Vertigo is that *Mature Themes =
>Fantasy/Magic/Occult*
Again, this is historical, because Alan Moore started work on Swamp Thing
(and Gaiman later came up with Sandman). Admittedly, it would be good if they
did more, but ultimately its up to us readers to support things like
Chiaruscuro to make sure more happen.
> They brought Jonah Hex back and instead of doing a Western story, they did a
> monster/magic story in a Western setting.
True enough. I didn't like the idea much, but I will point out that Langsdale
is mainly a horror writer and Truman has done a fair bit of horror. I would
prefer something like Truman's more serious Western work (but Truman probably
wouldn't work on a comic he doesn't own for long).
> Do you know how the Paradox books are doing in bookstores?
My impression (from talking to a couple of friends) was that the Big Books are
doing well, the little books badly. I think its a matter of perception: people
are used to seeing large humor comic/cartoon books.
Abhijit
Abhiji...@transarc.com
Joseph T Arendt (jar...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu) wrote:
>
> I like the idea of a female test pilot becoming Green Lantern.
Anyone remember the Ten from the Royal Flush Gang, circa JLoA #203-205 ? She
was a Test Pilot ("as good as Hal Jordan") whose superior made a pass
at her, and when she resisted, had her fired. At that point, Ace recruited her
as the Ten. One of the interesting things about this incarnation of the RF
gang was that Conway actually put some time into detailing the backgrounds of
all the Royal Flushers (except Ace, who was a robot). One of the Flushers
eventually turned, but it wasn't Ten (which annoyed me, because she might have
had the most reason to help the JLA).
All of the appearances of the Royal Flush Gang since then have never really
focused on the members, so its hard to tell if Ten even reappeared. Anyway,
this Ten would make a good character to return.
fire...@panix.com (Elayne Wechsler-Chaput) writes:
> I've been playfully "lobbying" on and off for awhile to be written in as
> a comic book character somewhere, and my preference has always been to be
> the first female Earth-based Green Lantern. The anointing of Kyle Raynor
Well, Celeste Rockfish might sorta count as the first.
Abhijit
Johanna Draper
TrishaDE <tris...@aol.com> wrote:
> I think you're jumping the gun here in criticizing the first issue for
>having no women. I always look at first issues differently than subsequent
>ones in that the writer and artist have a mere 22 pages to introduce the
>main character, some of the supporting cast, the premise AND on top off
>all that start off an interesting storyline.
There were no women, period. Not one drawn in the background as part of the
setting, even. That's not my world. And that (along with other reasons)
makes this a book I'm not interested in. There's too much other stuff out
there I want to buy to keep looking at a book because it might become other
than objectionable.
Although I'm told your colors on it are lovely.
Johanna
Johanna Draper
Michael Ellis <mke...@ritz.mordor.com> wrote:
>Actually, I'd love for Elayne and Johanna to read a few issues of Gunsmith
>Cats and tell me what they thought. Maybe I'll bring some of Dark Horse's
>translated issues along with me to Philly, if I end up going.
Sure, I'm always interested in taking a look at something new. If this is
the one I'm thinking of, though, I'm not sure I can get past the art.But
I'd be glad to give it a try.
Johanna
Johanna Draper
DJ McEwenX <djmc...@aol.com> wrote:
>I don't think Wonder Woman was an attempt at "PC" or "keeping score."
Sure it was. Marston thought there should be a female hero to balance the
men.
>If WW didn't sell, you wouldn't have to opportunity to be reading it!
You're not familiar with the WW licensing deal, are you? Suffice it to say
that WW isn't as affected by low sales as some.
Johanna
Johanna Draper
Matthew F Johnson <cr...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
> Hmm, I was thinking of running a contest to let a reader be the
>visual model of a villain in my upcoming book _Neon_. And we do have a
>supporting character that hasn't been designed yet... but honestly, wasn't
>being in Legion #35 enough for you?
I haven't been in Legion. How much do I have to beg? :)
Johanna
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
: It's incredibly rare that a character, in comics,
: literature, or the movies, causes me to think "This person is like me."
: I can't think of any character in any comic I'm reading right now that
: I actually identify with. There are many I like, many I don't, but never,
: ever am I drawn to characters because of similarites.
Well, then you read comics and other escapist literature completely
differently than I do. I'm drawn to certain universals, and I'd much,
much rather read a comic where I can identify with the characters than
one in which the characters are all Other to me.
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
: I don't think Wonder Woman was an attempt at "PC" or "keeping score."
I doubt it was "PC" when it started, simply because that particular
buzzphrase didn't exist back in the Golden Age. :)
But yes, there were a few other female heroes at the time, so Wonder
Woman was not as unique back then as some would like to think.
: If WW didn't sell, you wouldn't have to opportunity to be reading it! The
: fact that Perez started v3 Wonder Woman and Byrne's doing it now goes a
: long way toward keeping those sales up! Believe me, WW's NOT a "crumb."
: (OK, so you'd didn't explicity say it was, but I'm just making sure!)
No, I take nothing away from the title, which I quite enjoy. I'm just
saying it's kind of the exception that proves the rule - and it *is* a
crumb compared to the vast majority of titles focusing on male heroes.
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
: dan...@aurora.cis.upenn.edu (Johanna Draper) writes:
: > But when I see a comic that has *no* women, I wonder what planet the
: > writer's on.
: Fair enough. But then, returning to the point about global superheroes, why
: do you seem to think that it's reasonable to exclude 95 % of the world from
: the comic ? That's certainly a completely different planet from this one.
Abhijit, wherever did Johanna (or any of us) imply that this was reasonable?
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
query about whether and how often manga portray non-Japanese characters
as opposed to characters clearly understood to be Japanese. Thanks, Mike!
: OTOH, the treatment of women (at least in the manga I read) goes from
: extremely good (typically shoujo stuff, written by women) to not-great
: (shonen titles, written by men for boys).
I'm curious as to whether "Rapeman" is still being published. Just the
thought of such a comic existing still chills my blood.
: Still, even a 'blood and boobs'
: title like 'Gunsmith Cats' features great action, some fairly complex
: female characters who are *good* at what they do, and general competency
: on the part of the female characters.
: Actually, I'd love for Elayne and Johanna to read a few issues of Gunsmith
: Cats and tell me what they thought. Maybe I'll bring some of Dark Horse's
: translated issues along with me to Philly, if I end up going. (Along with
: a good pair of track shoes, just in case.)
Yes, please do - I'd like to see them.
michael bradley lile
>There were no women, period. Not one drawn in the background as part of the
>setting, even. That's not my world. And that (along with other reasons)
>makes this a book I'm not interested in. There's too much other stuff out
>there I want to buy to keep looking at a book because it might become other
>than objectionable.
>
Hold on; wait a minute. That's not true. Several of the
milk-box missing children are girls, and at least three people on page 4
are women. Furthermore, Alejandro's sister Tina (have all of you
forgotten about her?) seems to be a major part of his motivation in
becoming a superhero, and even (gasp!) has a speaking role.
Then again, the only female with lines in the book is *dead*.
But you're wrong in saying that there aren't any at all, anywhere in the
book.
From my POV, I'm too busy being ecstatic to see a Hispanic
superhero to get pissed about no major female characters in the first
issue. Now, if there aren't any in #2...
>Although I'm told your colors on it are lovely.
>
Very true. Good job, Trish.
>Johanna
-Brad
christopher j rednour,sa120a cd,244-5012,8
In a previous article, fire...@panix.com (Elayne Wechsler-Chaput) says:
>Joseph T Arendt (jar...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu) wrote:
>
>: I like the idea of a female test pilot becoming Green Lantern.
>
>I've been playfully "lobbying" on and off for awhile to be written in as
>a comic book character somewhere, and my preference has always been to be
>the first female Earth-based Green Lantern. The anointing of Kyle Raynor
>was probably one of the biggest missed-opportunity disappointments for me
>as a female reader - there's no reason a woman can't be this sector's
>GL. And you can betcha we wouldn't have significant others stuffed in
>fridges in that version!
This was my point. At the present time it make sense for GL to be a
woman. [In case anyone saw my previous post on this subject, I was saying
that if we were trying to see where characters could have been a woman in
the history of comics. I said GL, but I think - in the sixties mind you -
that it would have been near impossible to portray her as a test pilot. I
could be wrong, though. Was the military enlightened back then? :) And
I'm not saying that a woman in the sixties would have been ineligable to
be GL, just needed a tweek on the ol' origin] But definanately there is
no reason now why any person who got to be GL couldn't be a woman.
>
>: Was there a point to this? I liked Jesse Quick being chose as
>: a supposed successor for Flash, even if it was just a trick to motivate
>: Impulse.
>
>And to tweak the readers. ;) I wouldn't mind Jesse *or* Linda being
>Wally's successor, frankly.
Neither would I. I like Jesse as a character a lot.
-Chris
--
Chris Rednour *Ibis the Invincible, LSH, L*, Hourman,
___________________________________ *Doc Savage, Doctor Who, Power of
Ibis the Invincible returns in | *Shazam, Bjork, Syd Barrett, Madness
_Power of Shazam!_ #11 (DC Comics) | *Squaresoft Games, _Bridge of Birds_
Johanna Draper
>Because, even though I'm a white male, that's not my identity. Not at
>all. I actually find myself 'identifying' with non-white and specifically
>non-male characters more often than with white males, because of
>personalities.
Might it be the case that you don't have a primary identification as a
white male because that identity isn't under attack? Consider instead a
black male who isn't allowed to forget his skin color in our society. Or a
woman who has to become masculine to succeed.
>I will deny the assertion that men have people to identify with, and
>women don't. Men don't, or at least I don't, either.
Very good point. Men don't; boys do. And that's what's wrong with comics.
(Ta-Da! An oversweeping conclusion, just as a Christmas present for
Abhijit. <g>)
Johanna
Johanna Draper
michael bradley lile <ml...@silver.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:
>Alejandro's sister Tina (have all of you forgotten about her?) seems to
>be a major part of his motivation in becoming a superhero, and even
>(gasp!) has a speaking role.
Nope, I haven't forgotten, but as you mention, she's a dead little girl. To
me, this inclusion of female children argues for the infantilization of
women; they're only acceptable until they grow up. Interview with the
Vampire did the same thing.
Johanna
Johanna Draper
>> >There's no reason to restrict your percentages to merely this country.
>>
>> Sure there is: we're talking about American artifacts that are meant to
>> reflect at least in part this society.
>
>Sorry, you're wrong. DC comic books, to take an example, cover the whole world
>and have global crisises all the time.
That's fictional, inside the book. It's clear that I'm talking about
external pressures instead. To be obvious about it: DC Comics are
created in America (NY HQ) for Americans as the primary market.
>What reasons do you have to exclude the rest of the world from the "society"
>that American comic books are "meant to reflect" ?
For the above reason. DC sells to Americans, just as ABC does. The fact
that TV shows are also shown abroad doesn't change the original, primary
focus -- to create an artifact that will appeal to and make sense to
Americans.
>And does a Universe with maybe two issues (not series, issues) with
>non-negative portrayals of Arabs represent a good reflection ?
No one claimed it did. Arab representation is your particular pet issue,
Abhijit. I agree, it's a problem. But sidetracking a discussion of women's
portrayals to bring that in (as you constantly do) seems to argue that you
think your issue is more important than mine.
Johanna
Johanna Draper
>The comic books made "for women" just don't sell in any great amounts.
>And whose fault is that?
>The women who don't buy them, I think.
Snicker. Yep. First off, there aren't any mainstream superhero comics made
for women, so there's nothing I can buy to show my support for them. So I
should buy books with female characters, then? Ah, but if I do, then the
company sees the dollars only, and keeps putting out books geared the same
way, which isn't what I want.
Not to mention the lack of advertising and support for projects that might
appeal to women.
Economics can't be simplified as facilely (is that a word? <g>) as you
have.
>It's certainly not the fault of
>the comic companies -- who would gladly create and sell comics to
>whatever group of the population who wants to buy them, I'm convinced --
Bull. You don't know what really goes on up there. (Neither do I, really.)
But look at Stan Lee's quote for example ("comics aren't for girls").
Someone with that attitude isn't going to suddenly change his mind; his
preconceptions are affecting his business choices.
>The only way for there to be more comics written for women is if more
>women start buying comics. It's economics.
And the only way women will start buying comics is if people put out comics
that they want to buy.
Johanna
Matthew F Johnson
Johanna Draper (dan...@aurora.cis.upenn.edu) writes:
> In article <4b9sfi$k...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
>>I don't think Wonder Woman was an attempt at "PC" or "keeping score."
>
> men.
>
>
> that WW isn't as affected by low sales as some.
> Johanna
Did we ever get confirmation that this deal exists?
--
Matthew F. Johnson
"Someday Paul will be Glenn Ford, but today they'll wait for him."
- Paul Newman's agent
Matthew F Johnson
You don't have to beg. Just buy the book. :-)
Seriously, I may decide to do it as a contest - I haven't really
talked to the publisher about letter-column stuff. Of course, the villain
doesn't show up 'til somewhere in the mid-thirties of the book, whereas
the supporting character makes her first appearance in issue three, so
maybe you'd rather go for the latter - who knows if we'll make it to issue
thirty, we don't even have issue one out yet (April or May, I'm told - I'm
scripting #3 at present).
I don't know - think you could play a twentysomething costume
designer from Connecticut?
Abhiji...@transarc.com
fire...@panix.com (Elayne Wechsler-Chaput) writes:
> Abhiji...@transarc.com wrote:
>
> : dan...@aurora.cis.upenn.edu (Johanna Draper) writes:
> : > But when I see a comic that has *no* women, I wonder what planet the
> : > writer's on.
>
> : Fair enough. But then, returning to the point about global superheroes, why
> : do you seem to think that it's reasonable to exclude 95 % of the world from
> : the comic ? That's certainly a completely different planet from this one.
>
> Abhijit, wherever did Johanna (or any of us) imply that this was reasonable?
In her last post in the Global superheroes thread (which you might not have
seen yet). Of course, if I am misrepresenting her and she thinks it is
unreasonable, then she will doubtless correct me :-).
Abhijit
Abhiji...@transarc.com
ad...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Dwight Williams) writes:
> Indeed. I have to wonder if maybe DC worries(Wrongly, natch) about being
> hauled into court by any combination of Richard Comely(Capt. Canuck),
> Marvel Comics(Alpha Flight, Wolverine), Mark Shainblum(Northguard and
> Fleur-de-Lis), and/or Nelvana(Nelvana, Johnny Canuck). Might explain their
> disinterest in putting out Canadian heroes for public consumption, if they
> were.
In general DC's non-presentation of Canadians is in sharp contrast to
Marvel. Part of this may just be the influence of John Byrne in the creation
of Alpha Flight.
DC, by contrast, does have a lot of British characters. Few British
superheroes (jokes like Godiva and Beefeater), but a number of non-superhero
characters. Its partly due to the presence of a lot of British writers, of
course.
Oddly enough, both DC and Marvel have a lot of Russian characters.
Abhijit
Johanna Draper
>> You're not familiar with the WW licensing deal, are you? Suffice it to say
>> that WW isn't as affected by low sales as some.
>
I was told that Paul Kupperberg confirmed it on AOL.
Johanna
Abhiji...@transarc.com
dan...@aurora.cis.upenn.edu (Johanna Draper) writes:
> <Abhiji...@transarc.com> wrote:
> >dan...@aurora.cis.upenn.edu (Johanna Draper) writes:
> >> >There's no reason to restrict your percentages to merely this country.
> >>
> >> Sure there is: we're talking about American artifacts that are meant to
> >> reflect at least in part this society.
> >
> >Sorry, you're wrong. DC comic books, to take an example, cover the whole world
> >and have global crisises all the time.
>
> That's fictional, inside the book. It's clear that I'm talking about
> external pressures instead.
You say that a comic which excludes 51% of the population makes you wonder
what planet the writer is on. A comic which excludes 95 % of the world should
raise the same point.
> To be obvious about it: DC Comics are
> created in America (NY HQ) for Americans as the primary market.
So if I were to say that my primary market is adolescent males, that absolves
me from any responsibility of including characters who may not appeal to
adolescent males ? Not likely, I say.
Its obvious that an American created comic will (and should) have more
American representation than from any other country. But that by itself
doesn't mean that the near complete absence of non-American locales and
characters should be dismissed with the statement "this is an American comic
book". I'm not suggesting that Superman should be turned non-American or
something silly like that, either.
> >What reasons do you have to exclude the rest of the world from the "society"
> >that American comic books are "meant to reflect" ?
>
> For the above reason. DC sells to Americans, just as ABC does. The fact
> that TV shows are also shown abroad doesn't change the original, primary
> focus -- to create an artifact that will appeal to and make sense to
> Americans.
Again, that doesn't follow. A lot of movies are meant to have a global focus
(James Bond for instance). Ditto for a lot of comics (Tintin, Mandrake, Disney
Ducks, even Richie Rich and Archie). Sandman and Hellblazer are both very
popular in Europe. In fact, Disney comics are much more popular outside
America than within.
Also, many of DC's writers are Brits or expat Brits (Gaiman, Morrison, Ennis,
Milligan, Grant, John Wagner, Chris Claremont, Paul Jenks).
> >And does a Universe with maybe two issues (not series, issues) with
> >non-negative portrayals of Arabs represent a good reflection ?
>
> No one claimed it did. Arab representation is your particular pet issue,
> Abhijit. I agree, it's a problem. But sidetracking a discussion of women's
> portrayals to bring that in (as you constantly do) seems to argue that you
> think your issue is more important than mine.
I find this statement very insulting and completely untrue. I was not the one
who started this discussion in the first place (that was Ken), it was Abhay
who commented on the absence of Indians, and it was a comment by Elayne about
percentages that I responded to (without knocking her main point, incidentally).
As far as "constantly sidetracking" goes, give me a bloody break. This is
probably only the second time this whole year that I've brought up the whole
Arab [1] issue on Usenet [2], and the first time was in response to a comment
about story quality of a comic, not in a discussion of women's portrayals. You
bring up the whole women's issue every second post. That's certainly your
right, but don't *dare* claim that I'm sidetracking an issue simply because I
bring it up in maybe one post to your 500. [ And in response to a relevant
comment, too.]
Quite frankly, I'm disappointed that you'd use such a blatantly inaccurate
statement and I expect a retraction.
As to which issue is more important, obviously some issues are more important
to some people than others. I don't really feel that strongly about the whole
global representation issue (other than that it would be nice to have a few
well-written non American characters).
"Sidetrack" .. snort.
Abhijit [fuming]
[1] I should point out, if it matters, that I'm not Arab myself so its not a
personal issue for me at all.
[2] I mentioned Islam (not Arabs specifically) a couple of times on CIS in a thread about
negative portrayals of Christians and religion and I complimented Gaiman on
Ramadan once on CIS.
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
: I reviewed this for Smash magazine, so I won't get into everything I
: said there here, but you saw the first thing that was obvious to me as
: well -- this is a World Without Women. And think about how silly that
: is. This is set in a hospital for a good part of the story, and we
: don't even see one female nurse.
Actually, we do. An unnamed character runs from the hospital towards the
chaos on, like, the second to last page.
But there are no female *characters*, true. The only women in
existence here are apparently background or plot device. Which gives me,
personally, little to hang onto via the method by which I usually read
escapist literature.
: Not to mention how bad a blend of genres this was. I would have liked to
: have seen this book without the grafted-on superheroics. It was working for
: me as a cop book.
And I would have preferred the grafted-on without the cop stuff. :)
: >(The one panel showing him stocking his fridge with these cartons while
: >insisting to his older brother Javier on the phone that "I do *not*
: >obsess" was what sold me on this book. *Very* nice example of "showing,
: >not telling.")
: But so damn obvious. This was construction by the numbers. Competant,
: well-crafted, but there's no art to it. No spirit.
I thought there was art to that panel. As well as to the other panel
which really grabbed me, as the fire power first flows through Sanchez.
: Stop apologizing, Elayne. This is a major problem with the book, and a
: legitimate criticism.
It's also a running gag in my review (which I'm surprised nobody caught;
I *do* like to make fun of myself in my reviews, and the "apologies" are
part of that) and an acknowledgement of my personal baggage vis a vis
reading this book, insofar as my questioning aloud how fair I'm being in
laying that personal baggage at Augustyn's doorstep.
Sean MacDonald
>
>
>DC, by contrast, does have a lot of British characters. Few British
>superheroes (jokes like Godiva and Beefeater),
Abhijit is on "the list" of the Godiva Anti-Defamation League.
:)
Actually, Godiva was treated seriously. Well, in the JL books,
everyone was treated as a joke. But I think she's even
mentioned with respect in the first Post-Crisis Toyman story.
-SM
dle2
<Abhiji...@transarc.com> wrote:
>dl...@itc.cc.bellcore.com ("dle2") writes:
>> Marvel also bears some blame for taking their product out of the marketplace
>> and placing it in speciality shops.
>
>I'm not sure what you are referring to here. If its the switch to pure direct
>distribution, rather than newstands, part of it was because of the economics
>of using more expensive formats (which made returnability too expensive) and
>the use of more adult material (which made them non-Code). I don't think that
>applies to Micronauts, though.
Micronauts was part of a test that Marvel did to see if Direct Comic Shops
could support a title. I believe they also used Moon Knight and one other
title for this experiment. Around issue 36 or 37 they stopped producing
those comics for the newstand and sent them to Comic Shops only. They didn't
change the paper, but Micronauts was basically at the forefront of the
revolution, because sales were encouraging.
To me, it was worse than cancellation, because I knew the comic was still out
there, I just couldn't get it. :)
>> Do you know how the Paradox books are doing in bookstores?
>
>My impression (from talking to a couple of friends) was that the Big Books are
>doing well, the little books badly. I think its a matter of perception: people
>are used to seeing large humor comic/cartoon books.
Oh yeah, I forgot about the little books, because I've never seen them in
bookstores around here, only the Big Books. I think they also made a mistake in
releasing it like a periodical (i.e. one a month) instead of like a novel.
Most non-comics readers are used to getting a complete story in one *book.*
-Dave Eppley
Kynn Bartlett
>John Todd (jto...@cc.swarthmore.edu) wrote:
>: you would be hard pressed to find any comic that a significant amount of
>: people of color in the cast. how are these readers supposed to feel as
>: though they are "welcome".
>A good question. I'm sure this was part of the impetus that led Cowan,
>McDuffie, Owsley, etc. to start up Milestone.
But that begs this question: Should I, as a white guy, feel unwelcomed
by Milestone comics?
It seems to me that I should be made to feel an outsider by Icon (which
has only a very few, very minor supporting characters who aren't black
-- the GRIND (or BUMP or whatever they are) cop, who might be hispanic,
and Icon's former law partner) by the same kind of though processes that
make Elayne feel excluded by Firebrand.
Yes or no? I really like Icon, and enjoy reading about Rocket a whole
lot, but I'm afraid that since she's a black female, I'm not really
supposed to be enjoying the comic.
/\ /\ /\ /\ Kynn Bartlett / ky...@idyllmtn.com
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