Alan Moore's Twilight
Jimmy Aitken
>Does anyone know where I can get a opy of Alan Moore's proposed script
>for twilight that was doing the rounds a while back?
A quick search of the web gives me:
http://nspace.cts.com/html/Comics/Twilight/twilite0.html
The keywords used in www.altavista.digital.com were
+twilight +alan +moore
and it was there in the first page.
Jimmy
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rubicon
Pat Spacek
: >for twilight that was doing the rounds a while back?
: A quick search of the web gives me:
: http://nspace.cts.com/html/Comics/Twilight/twilite0.html
: The keywords used in www.altavista.digital.com were
: +twilight +alan +moore
: and it was there in the first page.
A word of warning, though: the outline posted there is either fake, or
else evidence of some sort of degenerative mind disease in Alan Moore.
Apart from a pretty interesting twist ending, the story really is pretty
silly.
--
==============================================================================
| Pat Spacek psp...@waterloo.net http://www.waterloo.net/~pspacek |
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Michael R. Grabois
Spacek) wrote:
>Jimmy Aitken (pet...@shellx.best.com) wrote:
>: >for twilight that was doing the rounds a while back?
>: A quick search of the web gives me:
>: http://nspace.cts.com/html/Comics/Twilight/twilite0.html
>: The keywords used in www.altavista.digital.com were
>: +twilight +alan +moore
>: and it was there in the first page.
> A word of warning, though: the outline posted there is either fake, or
>else evidence of some sort of degenerative mind disease in Alan Moore.
>Apart from a pretty interesting twist ending, the story really is pretty
>silly.
I reposted this a week ago on another Twilight thread:
Last summer on Compuserve, I posted the file to the library. A number
of people downloaded it and read it; here's what they said:
Date: Sun, 02 Jul 1995 00:40:14 GMT
Kurt Busiek
"Based on the Internet discussions of the proposal, it sure sounds
like the one I've read, which is quite traceably Moore."
Warren Ellis
"Well, it has Moore's voice. Fascinating document."
Neil Gaiman
"Well, your description sounds exactly like the description of
Twilight I got from Alan one afternoon in 1986, so I'd assume it's the
same thing."
Dave Gibbons
"I've had a look at the Twilight file and have no hesitation in
declaring it the real McCoy. I can't recall if I ever actually read it
way back then or if Alan told me about it (which amounts to the same
thing, content-wise!) in one of our three-hour phone calls. I vividly
remember the bit with Dollman in the vivarium!"
Chris Miller
"I have no idea where the original was obtained, but I have an
Nth-generation photocopy courtesy of a friend in CAPA-alpha. It's 39
pages long, and definitely genuine Moore. He proposed it circa 1986,
right after Watchmen. He worked out everything in tremendous detail,
including merchandising possibilities, a springboard for a
(then-nonexistent) John Constantine series, and even a very clever
time bubble idea that would have 'opened up' DC's single-earth
continuity without actually undoing the effects of the Crisis."
Michael R. Grabois | http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mgrabois
Houston, TX | or...@ix.netcom.com CI$: 74737,2600
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Every person, without exception, who has criticized me fits into
some combination of lowlife and mentally ill." --Mark Hines,
sci.space.shuttle, 12/5/95
Pat Spacek
: > A word of warning, though: the outline posted there is either fake, or
: >Apart from a pretty interesting twist ending, the story really is pretty
: >silly.
: I reposted this a week ago on another Twilight thread:
[Lots of pros saying that the outline *is* in fact Moore's own.]
Okay, I believe you. More's the pity.
I mean, the storyline had its good bits, but, well...Tarzan? The House
of Steel? Plasticman as a male prostitute? Those things, as well as
others, make me very glad that the project never got off the ground.
Ken Arromdee
Pat Spacek <psp...@ophelia.waterloo.net> wrote:
> Okay, I believe you. More's the pity.
> I mean, the storyline had its good bits, but, well...Tarzan? The House
>of Steel? Plasticman as a male prostitute? Those things, as well as
>others, make me very glad that the project never got off the ground.
Twilight, as written, is very, very, Moore. It's also a good example of one
of the major things wrong with Moore's work.
We can probably see it much easier now that half the superheroes in comics
have been made "dark", down to Aquaman and Green Lantern, but Moore pioneered
it, and I'm not so sure that comics as a whole has gained.
--
Ken Arromdee (arro...@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu, karr...@nyx.cs.du.edu;
http://www.cs.jhu.edu/~arromdee)
"An alien invader has entered our galaxy! It has now entered our universe,
clearing Saturn... radial velocity KMS minus 8. It is now orbiting directly
for Earth." --Bad American Dubbing #2 (quoting ???)
Tara Brie Alvarez
I would really appreciate it if someone were to either post the
summery/plot/outline of Twilight or e-mail it to me. I would be very
interested in seeing it. Thank You
Gregg T. Allinson
: Michael R. Grabois (or...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: : > A word of warning, though: the outline posted there is either fake, or
: : >else evidence of some sort of degenerative mind disease in Alan Moore.
: : >Apart from a pretty interesting twist ending, the story really is pretty
: : >silly.
: : I reposted this a week ago on another Twilight thread:
: [Lots of pros saying that the outline *is* in fact Moore's own.]
: Okay, I believe you. More's the pity.
: I mean, the storyline had its good bits, but, well...Tarzan? The House
: of Steel? Plasticman as a male prostitute? Those things, as well as
: others, make me very glad that the project never got off the ground.
Oh, I dunno-I really enjoyed it. It's so cool with the political
in-fighting and all. The only bit I didn't get was the fluke, but apart
from that, I quite enjoyed it. The end bit with Supes and CM rocks.
Beds,
Gregg "Dave" Allinson
......
"the magic of the instability has washed out on me"
-david yadalee
Visit the Scrapyard! @ http://miso.wwa.com/~roscoe
WATCH DR WHO ON FOX IN MAY!!!!!!!!
rubicon
psp...@ophelia.waterloo.net (Pat Spacek) wrote:
>Michael R. Grabois (or...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
> I mean, the storyline had its good bits, but, well...Tarzan? The House
>of Steel? Plasticman as a male prostitute? Those things, as well as
>others, make me very glad that the project never got off the ground.
>
fascinating and quite typically Moore; the twist ending and the
manipulation by the two Constantines were wonderful touches- obviously
this was an outline only and would have changed in a number of areas if
it had gone any further. It's a shame that it wasn't produced and I
wonder if we will ever see Alan Moore working with DC again after recent
comments he made about not working for them until they give him what is
rightfully his ( paraphrased)
tholian
>In article <4i6vsk$a...@ophelia.waterloo.net>,
>Pat Spacek <psp...@ophelia.waterloo.net> wrote:
>>of Steel? Plasticman as a male prostitute? Those things, as well as
>>others, make me very glad that the project never got off the ground.
>
obably see it >much easier now that half the superheroes in comics have been made >"dark", down to Aquaman and Green Lantern, but Mo=
ore pioneered it, and >I'm not so sure that comics as a whole has gained.
>Ken Arromdee (arro...@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu, karr...@nyx.cs.du.edu;
> http://www.cs.jhu.edu/~arromdee)
I just read the treatment a couple of days ago and was,to be quite frank,
astounded at the skill and depth of imagination shown by Mr. Moore.Very
few of todays writers can take the mythical resonances of each paticuliar
super-hero and exploit them in new and exciting situations. Alan Moore
has here proved to be exemplary at this and I only hope that he is
offered,and can find the enthusiasm for, more mainstream work.
But,as Kevin Arromdee states above,there is one major flaw in the story -
it is too dark for what Moore is trying to achieve.In the treatment he
states how he hopes that the project would be exploited in as many areas
as possible ( toys and merchandise, etc.) in a similar way that previous
crossovers such as Crisis and Secret Wars were exploited.But the subject
matter and it`s connotations manifestl;y prevent this. Aspects such as
the seduction of Billy Batson and the eerie torture of Doll Man are just
two examples of things which would be unpalatable and unsuitable for the
childrens market that such spin-offs would be intended for.
Also the truly dark and adult themed nature of the story is perhaps
unsuitable for a crossover which sees it`s antecedents in the Crisis and
Secret Wars epics. Both these titles told broadly mainstream stories
which,in the case of Crisis especially, exploited the shared universe
myths of the various comic universes to a large and successful degree.
While this story might exploit the mythic shared universe concept
excellently it cannot be called mainsream for obvious reasons. On one
hand, like all cross-overs, it depends on the fans knowledge of
super-hero lore at least to a certain degree while on the other hand it
alienates the same audience with it`s adult, realistic and sometimes
deconstructive take on the super-heroes.For example I do not think that
Twilight would be suitable for the target audiences of a contemporary
title like Blue Devil - or,on the other hand,the largely comic-lore
illiterate readers of adult comics. An ideal crossover - one which
warranted the extensive promotional push which such annual events
require, would need to satisfy both these markets to some extent to be
approved, let alone successfully sold.
So perhaps Alan`s story does`nt work as the commercial hit he thought it
might have been. The story, nevertheless remains excellent and desrves
publishing in some form, though I doubt it will ever be in the
multi-title crossover form in which Alan originally envisioned it.
tholian
( who yet again has over-written )
Mazerki
of it (not even any of what it's about!) and I'm just wondering if maybe
someone can let me know where I can find a copy or at least find out about
the plot. (Sorry about being such a nuisance but that idiot Bizarro's
always got my screen name.)
-Say! It's from Aaron!
Gregg T. Allinson
: I've heard so much about this story but have yet to actually read any
You can find it at:
http://nspace.cts.com/html/Comics/Twilight/twilite0.html
Beds,
Gregg "Dave" Allinson
......
"I've lost my faith in all things good
Just like mother said I would"
-Whipping Boy-Tripped
Prestorjon
: : > A word of warning, though: the outline posted there is either fake,
or
: : >else evidence of some sort of degenerative mind disease in Alan
Moore.
: : >Apart from a pretty interesting twist ending, the story really is
pretty
: : >silly.
: : I reposted this a week ago on another Twilight thread:>>
Well if it is a fake it is pretty well made and has a number of DC people
(ranging from lawyers to Mark Waid) complicit in perpetuating its
authenticity.
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
: Well if it is a fake it is pretty well made and has a number of DC people
: (ranging from lawyers to Mark Waid) complicit in perpetuating its
: authenticity.
FOR THE RECORD: Mark Waid has NEVER READ "Twilight."
My guess is, deliberately so.
- Elayne
--
E-Mail me, the "Firehead Head," for more info about the official ()~~
Firesign Theatre newsletter, Four-Alarm FIRESIGNal, available via ##
snail mail or free online! "I couldn't get you to believe my name ##
was Mr. and Mrs. John Smith, could I?" _##_
Paul Moorehead
On 29 Mar 1996, Elayne Wechsler-Chaput wrote:
> Prestorjon (prest...@aol.com) wrote:
>
> : Well if it is a fake it is pretty well made and has a number of DC people
> : (ranging from lawyers to Mark Waid) complicit in perpetuating its
> : authenticity.
>
> FOR THE RECORD: Mark Waid has NEVER READ "Twilight."
>
> My guess is, deliberately so.
If I'd had to guess about this beforehand, I'd have said that Waid had
read 'Twilight', simply because it looks like 'Kingdom Come' will feature
a Captain Marvel/Superman tilt, which was sort of a major feature of
'Twilight'.
I know that this isn't anything like proof. Anyone could have come up
with the idea of The Big Red Cheese and the The Big Blue Boy Scout having
it out.
But, Elayne, how do you know Waid hasn't read 'Twilight'? Is it because
he said he hasn't? I mean, I don't believe that he really wishes Liefeld
luck with 'Captain America', so why would I believe it if he says that he
didn't rip off someone else's idea?
Paul
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
: On 29 Mar 1996, Elayne Wechsler-Chaput wrote:
: >
: > FOR THE RECORD: Mark Waid has NEVER READ "Twilight."
: >
: > My guess is, deliberately so.
: If I'd had to guess about this beforehand, I'd have said that Waid had
: read 'Twilight', simply because it looks like 'Kingdom Come' will feature
: a Captain Marvel/Superman tilt, which was sort of a major feature of
: 'Twilight'...
: But, Elayne, how do you know Waid hasn't read 'Twilight'? Is it because
: he said he hasn't?
Yes, and I have further verification. I've no doubt he's HEARD of it,
but I also have no trouble believing, with all the accusations he KNOWS
would fly against him on this, that he's stayed far, far away from it.
: I mean, I don't believe that he really wishes Liefeld
: luck with 'Captain America', so why would I believe it if he says that he
: didn't rip off someone else's idea?
Well, believe what you want to. I mean, it's nice you have a summer home
in Mark Waid's head and all - let me know when there are rooms to let.
Glen Wadleigh
>If I'd had to guess about this beforehand, I'd have said that Waid had
>read 'Twilight', simply because it looks like 'Kingdom Come' will feature
>a Captain Marvel/Superman tilt, which was sort of a major feature of
>'Twilight'.
>
>I know that this isn't anything like proof. Anyone could have come up
>with the idea of The Big Red Cheese and the The Big Blue Boy Scout having
>it out.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Kingdom Come supposed to be more of
a reaction to Image and the "grim and gritty" superhero explosion that
happened a couple of years back? I read the Twilight proposal and while
it certainly seems to share some elements with Kingdom Come in that both
detail the "end" of the DC universe, I don't think that that, and the
Superman vs. Capt. Marvel thing, is a giveaway that KC is ripoff.
Besides, does it really matter if Waid read Twilight? IIRC, the story
for KC came from Alex Ross. Ross wrote a detailed treatment and then
gave that treatment to Waid so that Waid could translate those ideas into
a serviceable plot. So the question we really ought to be asking is, did
Alex Ross read Twilight?
Andy (using Glen's account)
Marc/SF Bay Area, CA
You have "further verification" that he (Waid) hasn't read Twilight??
Goodness, how do you VERIFY that someone has or has not read something?
People who live in glass summer homes in Mark Waid's head shouldn't throw
stones.
Marc
Randy Lander
>Elayne
Can someone please tell me exactly what the fuck is so important about
whether or not Mark Waid has or has not read Twilight?
(Excuse the profanity, but I see another flame war over something
extremely pointless developing and it's frustrating.)
rwla...@io.com<*>
My Home Page:http://www.io.com/~rwlander
This Post contains the opinions of one Randy Lander.
Had it been the biblical truth, your bushes would be
on fire.
Marc/SF Bay Area, CA
You say: <<FOR THE RECORD: Mark Waid has NEVER READ "Twilight."
My guess is, deliberately so.
- Elayne>>
You also claim that those of us who are only saying the possibility exists
that he (or Ross for that matter) MIGHT have read it are WRONG. The only
real exception I take with your assertions is that you are speaking as if
you KNOW and have irrefutable proof. Simply put in your own words:
<< By asking other people to corroborate - people whose word I also trust,
and who have little reason to lie.>>
hmmmm, I always thought that was called heresay.
How can you POSSIBLY know whether or not Waid or Ross woke up at 3 AM in
the dead of night one weekend, signed onto the internet and read the darn
thing?!?!?! I admit that I DON'T know....by the way, still waiting for
that "evidence" you mentioned.
Marc
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
: Can someone please tell me exactly what the fuck is so important about
: whether or not Mark Waid has or has not read Twilight?
Some people were concerned about possible similarities between "Twilight"
and the script for KINGDOM COME.
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
: How can you POSSIBLY know whether or not Waid or Ross woke up at 3 AM in
: the dead of night one weekend, signed onto the internet and read the darn
: thing?!?!?!
Because I happen to know they have better things to do, m'dear. :)
I believe Ross read it after KINGDOM COME was done.
Melsteve
CM was created if not before(he was a Superman knockoff disguised as Fred
Macmurray).
It's certainly been executed several times A 1970's Tabloid Special
(mmm...Tabloid size); various issues of DC Comics Presents spring
immediately to mind. So the thought that Waid may have stolen the idea
from Alan Moore is ridiculous since Moore only proposed a battle everyone
and his brother thought of when they first heard of the characters. It's
pretty obvious. Execution could make it wonderful.
As to if Waid read Twilight. If he says he didn't why not believe him.
The implication seems to be he's a thief and it seems silly.
"Well...prove he's not a thief!!!!!"
Melsteve
knowing people will respond: "if you would have read my response more
closely you moron...blah blah blah nag nag...." And then i'll end up in a
killfile(whatever that is)
Kevin J. Maroney
>Can someone please tell me exactly what the fuck is so important about
>whether or not Mark Waid has or has not read Twilight?
Because there are elements of KINGDOM COME which might or might not
echo TWILIGHT. (The fact that C****** M***** is among the foremost
heavies in both works is the most obvious.) However, Waid claims he
has not read TWILIGHT, and I am inclined to believe he isn't lying.
>(Excuse the profanity, but I see another flame war over something
>extremely pointless developing and it's frustrating.)
--
Kevin J. Maroney | Crossover Technologies | ke...@crossover.com
Games are my entire waking life.
Joseph T Arendt
**
In article <315f34e0...@news.crossover.com>,
Kevin J. Maroney <ke...@crossover.com> wrote:
>rwla...@io.com (Randy Lander) wrote:
>
>>Can someone please tell me exactly what the f--k is so important about
>>whether or not Mark Waid has or has not read Twilight?
>
>Because there are elements of KINGDOM COME which might or might not
>echo TWILIGHT. (The fact that C****** M***** is among the foremost
>heavies in both works is the most obvious.) However, Waid claims he
>has not read TWILIGHT, and I am inclined to believe he isn't lying.
I don't particularly care whether Mr. Waid read Moore's
TWILIGHT or not. Even if he had, I'd imagine what he produced would
be much different.
While there may be some similarities between it and KINGDOM
COME, it makes me think about the autobiography _I. Asimov_ by Isaac
Asimov. In one of the chapters, Asimov talks about how similar some
of his stories and other writer's stories have been even without
having read the other's work. Some of the stuff seems like there
would be no way it could happen so closely without plagarism, but it
did. Things happened like similar plots or even a same character
name. Coincidences do happen.
Opps, I just realized I admitted I read a book without pictures
on a comic book newsgroup. :-)
Anyway, using Captain Marvel as a major heavy is a pretty
obvious thing to do...especially now that he has a monthly book again.
He's also a natural for anything with mythological themes. I found
_War of the Gods_ a nonsensical mess, but using C.M. as such a major
player given his gods-derived powers (although what Solomon is doing
in there has always puzzled me) is a natural for a story with a gods
theme.
>>(Excuse the profanity, but I see another flame war over something
>>extremely pointless developing and it's frustrating.)
Yeah, I agree.
>--
>Kevin J. Maroney | Crossover Technologies | ke...@crossover.com
> Games are my entire waking life.
BTW, I read TWILIGHT. I'm glad it WASN'T made at the time,
although now that DC has the ELSEWORLD's series, it might make a good
ELSEWORLD. I don't see it as a plausible future history, but if
it is an ELSEWORLD, I wouldn't have to worry about it. :-)
Joseph Arendt
L. Post
first.
How can there be a debate on whether the idea of one story came from
another story when neither one has even seen print yet?
I just read the Twilight proposal, it was interesting, but I doubt I
would have liked it as a story. I can't wait to see Kingdom Come, and
I have been intentionally depriving myself of info on it so I can go
into it with no preconceived notions.
The Twilight proposal was just that, a proposal. I'm sure Kingdom Come had
it's very own proposal, And I doubt it was a 9 year old document with
Alan Moore's name scratched off and Waid's name scribbled to the side.
Oh well, that's enough for me.
J
Colonel Calamity!
> << By asking other people to corroborate - people whose word I also trust,
> and who have little reason to lie.>>
>
> hmmmm, I always thought that was called heresay.
>
> How can you POSSIBLY know whether or not Waid or Ross woke up at 3 AM in
> the dead of night one weekend, signed onto the internet and read the darn
> thing?!?!?! I admit that I DON'T know....by the way, still waiting for
> that "evidence" you mentioned.
Ok, FINE: Marc, I defy you to prove to me that they HAVE read it! It
doesn't matter if every single plot in the goddam book is the same, this
doesn't PROVE that they've read it! Wait for the thing to come out before
you start throwing this shit around, and lay off for awhile.
*****************************************************************************
* Colonel Calamity! * Visit my homepage in progress at *
* Grizzled Veteran of the Iconoclasts * www2.msstate.edu/~rrt4/index.html*
*****************************************************************************
* Keeper of the Unfinished JLA FAQ at www2.msstate.edu/~rrt4/jlafaq.html *
* Elitist Comics Bastards of the World, Unite! - Colonel Calamity *
* And I hope Neil Young will remember, *
* A Southern Man don't need him around, anyhow. *
*****************************************************************************
Michael Straight
In article <4jnn63$n...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>,
Joseph T Arendt <jar...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
> BTW, I read TWILIGHT. I'm glad it WASN'T made at the time,
Me too, especially since, if the synopsis is any indication, it would have
been several issues of "look how low the superheroes have sunk" and no
action other than John Ostrander sulking around and saying cryptic things
to various people and then one big battle of all the superheroes killing
each other. Maybe it was novel at the time, but after RUINS and THE LAST
AVENGERS STORY and some of the more depressing ELSEWORLDS, I'm pretty sick
of this genre.
Furthermore, it seemed to offer no good explanation of how Superman and
several of the other more "noble" heroes had changed so as to be willing to
kill to hold on to their empires. That seems like a major plot point,
central to making the whole story believable, and it's kind of glossed
over in the synopsis. Why are the Houses of Steel and Thunder determined
to make an alliance to rule the world? And dumb ideas like killing Gold
to make GL-proof armor when yellow spandex would have sufficed, or that
business with Billy Batson...yuck.
About the only part I liked was the bit at the very end with Ostrander
deleberately not meeting the girl, which was very cool but just confirmed
my impression that the whole proposal was more about John Ostrander than
anything else.
Michael Straight had more than a couple of pennies worth for that one.
FLEOEVDETYHOEUPROEONREWMEILECSOFMOERSGTIRVAENRGEEARDSTVHIESBIITBTLHEEPSRIACYK
Ethical Mirth Gas/"I'm chaste alright."/Magic Hitler Hats/"Hath grace limits?"
"Tight Camel Hairs!"/Chili Hamster Tag/The Gilt Charisma/"I gather this calm."
Joseph T Arendt
**
In article <4joukq$4...@newz.oit.unc.edu>,
Michael Straight <stra...@email.unc.edu> wrote:
>[Spoilerspace for those who haven't read the Twilight proposal]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>In article <4jnn63$n...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>,
>Joseph T Arendt <jar...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
>> BTW, I read TWILIGHT. I'm glad it WASN'T made at the time,
>
>Me too, especially since, if the synopsis is any indication, it would have
>been several issues of "look how low the superheroes have sunk" and no
>action other than John Ostrander sulking around and saying cryptic things
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>to various people and then one big battle of all the superheroes killing
>each other.
I could have sworn the fictional character in _Twilight_ was
John Constantine, the star of _Hellblazer_. As far as I know,
John Ostrander is a real writer who does _Spectre_. Is Earth-Prime
with its editors and writers with the names of the real editors and
writers back? :-)
>Maybe it was novel at the time, but after RUINS and THE LAST
>AVENGERS STORY and some of the more depressing ELSEWORLDS, I'm pretty sick
>of this genre.
But _Twilight_ came before these.
At any rate, I feel the way the market is organized now would
make a project like _Twilight_ more acceptable than it was when
proposed. Mature label books from the big two, Vertigo, and the
Elseworld label were not, I believe, out when this was proposed.
_The Dark Knight Returns_, for example, wasn't labeled as
ELSEWORLD (that label hadn't come out yet) so some felt it was the
set-in-stone future of Batman. For _Twilight_, readers thinking this
kind of thought about it could have gotten DC in hot water. Now, toss
on an ELSEWORLD label and a mature reader warning, and there you go.
Joseph Arendt
Michael Straight
Joseph T Arendt <jar...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
>
>
>**
>
>
>In article <4joukq$4...@newz.oit.unc.edu>,
>Michael Straight <stra...@email.unc.edu> wrote:
>>[Spoilerspace for those who haven't read the Twilight proposal]
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>In article <4jnn63$n...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>,
>>Joseph T Arendt <jar...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
>>> BTW, I read TWILIGHT. I'm glad it WASN'T made at the time,
>>
>>Me too, especially since, if the synopsis is any indication, it would have
>>been several issues of "look how low the superheroes have sunk" and no
>>action other than John Ostrander sulking around and saying cryptic things
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>John Constantine, the star of _Hellblazer_. As far as I know,
>John Ostrander is a real writer who does _Spectre_. Is Earth-Prime
>with its editors and writers with the names of the real editors and
>writers back? :-)
Oops. I must've been reading a Spectre review just before I wrote that.
You're right, I meant Constantine. Sorry about the confusion.
Michael Straight assumes no liability for financial losses due to this error.
Marc/SF Bay Area, CA
doesn't matter if every single plot in the goddam book is the same, this
doesn't PROVE that they've read it! Wait for the thing to come out before
you start throwing this shit around, and lay off for awhile.
*****************************************************************************
* Colonel Calamity! * Visit my homepage in progress at *>>
Colonel,
THIS is the full context of what I wrote....
<<How can you POSSIBLY know whether or not Waid or Ross woke up at 3 AM in
the dead of night one weekend, signed onto the internet and read the darn
thing?!?!?! I admit that I DON'T know....by the way, still waiting for
that "evidence" you mentioned.
Marc>>
Colonel, please note my use of the phrase: "I admit that I DON'T
know"...And,why get all in an uproar and "defy" me to prove that they did
or did not read it, when I never made EITHER claim! For goodness sake I
merely took issue with those very people who DID make such claims....yet
those who said stuff like: I KNOW FOR A FACT they did not read it or those
who are: CONVINCED IT IS A RIP OFF, seem to escape your demands for
proof. The truth be told, my personal OPINION is Waid and Ross can and
should be taken at their word.
Marc
Colonel Calamity!
> Colonel, please note my use of the phrase: "I admit that I DON'T
> know"...And,why get all in an uproar and "defy" me to prove that they did
> or did not read it, when I never made EITHER claim! For goodness sake I
> merely took issue with those very people who DID make such claims....yet
My apologies, Marc; maybe the writers referencing lines got snipped
by accident, but I assumed you wrote it. My bad.
*****************************************************************************
* Colonel Calamity! * Visit my homepage in progress at *
Calvin Hsieh
If the storyline of "Kingdom Come" is primarily Ross' work, then perhaps we should
start referring to it as "Alex Ross' Kingdom Come," just like
"Kurt Busiek's Astro City," "Neil Gaiman's Mr. Hero," etc.
We need to give out proper credit where it is due.
Alex Ross' name deserves top billing, above Mark Waid's.
When I bought "Marvels," it was because of Alex Ross' artwork. And when I buy
KC, uh, I mean ARKC, it will be for the same reason. Of course, it would be "nice"
to have a terrific story going along with the art, but even if the story is mediocre,
I will still buy it. And I think many of you will do the same. After all, comics
is a visual medium.
By the way, I think DC should change the name of one of the Superman titles to
"Joe Shuster's Superman," because nowadays, a tiny blurb inside the cover just
won't cut it anymore. We need constant reminders to tell us who is the
*true* creator of a title or character. Likewise, the current Green Lantern comic
should be renamed "Ron Marz's Green Lantern," since he created the crab face guy.
On second thought, the Superman title should be "John Byrne's Superman," since
Byrne "created" the new Superman.
What I am trying to say is, I get really annoyed at seeing people's name
being a part of a title. In movies, we have "Bram Stoker's Dracula".
The purpose of including Stoker's name is to distinguish this movie from
all the other Dracula movies that was previously made. It also tells the
moviegoers that this movie is somehow more "authentic" than those other
Dracula films. This makes sense.
But "Kurt Busiek's Astro City"? Are there some other Astro Cities that I
have missed? There might have been. If there are other Astro Cities, please
tell me about it. Same thing with Mr. Hero. Duh. I mean "Neil Gaiman's Mr. Hero."
Please don't misunderstand me. KBAC is one of my favorite titles in the past year.
But this blatant self-promotion is making me sick. It irritates me every
time I pick up the comic and it lessens my enjoyment of the story.
I don't read "Neil Gaiman's Mr. Hero." But from what I heard, Neil Gaiman created
the character and the story premise, but he isn't the writer. Please correct me
if I am wrong. I guess the use of his name in the title is intended to help sell
a book he doesn't write, not self promotion.
Does anyone else feel the same way?
C. H.
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
: If the storyline of "Kingdom Come" is primarily Ross' work, then perhaps we should
: start referring to it as "Alex Ross' Kingdom Come," just like
: "Kurt Busiek's Astro City," "Neil Gaiman's Mr. Hero," etc.
: We need to give out proper credit where it is due.
The characters in KINGDOM COME are copyright and trademark DC Comics.
Mr. Hero was created by Gaiman; Astro City was created by Busiek.
: Alex Ross' name deserves top billing, above Mark Waid's.
Tradition has always had the writer's name above the artist's. KINGDOM
COME was plotted by both Ross and Waid.
: What I am trying to say is, I get really annoyed at seeing people's name
: being a part of a title.
Well, names *sell* - and, as I say, this is often done to distinguish
creator-owned work.
But then, I'm one to talk; many's the time I've gotten blasted for DARING
to call my review posts "Pen-Elayne For Your Thoughts." <g>
ROBINSON, STEPHEN ER
>What I am trying to say is, I get really annoyed at seeing people's name
>The purpose of including Stoker's name is to distinguish this movie from
>all the other Dracula movies that was previously made. It also tells the
>moviegoers that this movie is somehow more "authentic" than those other
>Dracula films. This makes sense.
>
>But "Kurt Busiek's Astro City"? Are there some other Astro Cities that I
>have missed? There might have been. If there are other Astro Cities, please
>tell me about it. Same thing with Mr. Hero. Duh. I mean "Neil Gaiman's Mr. Hero."
>
>Please don't misunderstand me. KBAC is one of my favorite titles in the past year.
>But this blatant self-promotion is making me sick. It irritates me every
>time I pick up the comic and it lessens my enjoyment of the story.
>
>I don't read "Neil Gaiman's Mr. Hero." But from what I heard, Neil Gaiman created
>the character and the story premise, but he isn't the writer. Please correct me
>if I am wrong. I guess the use of his name in the title is intended to help sell
>a book he doesn't write, not self promotion.
>
>
>Does anyone else feel the same way?
>
independent title with no recognizable characters. Making it
John Byrne's Next Men would help sales because Byrne's name
is a recognizable commodity ("Oh yeah, the guy who did FF!")
It also explains Kurt Busiek's Astro City, etc.
SER
>
>.
>.
Dave Good
> When I bought "Marvels," it was because of Alex Ross' artwork. And when I buy
> KC, uh, I mean ARKC, it will be for the same reason. Of course, it would
be "nice"
> to have a terrific story going along with the art, but even if the story
is mediocre,
> I will still buy it. And I think many of you will do the same. After
all, comics
> is a visual medium.
Just in case this isn't an April Fool's prank and someone is making a
half-assed attempt to reopen the "artist vs. writer" debate:
Hitler.
:)
Back to Sexism vs. Comics! Yee ha!
--
Dave Good DG...@POMONA.EDU
why do people pronounce nuclear "nucular"?
Randy Lander
>Randy Lander (rwla...@io.com) wrote:
>: Can someone please tell me exactly what the fuck is so important about
>: whether or not Mark Waid has or has not read Twilight?
>Some people were concerned about possible similarities between "Twilight"
>and the script for KINGDOM COME.
Oh, sure, I get that. I guess my point was, so what if he had read
Twilight and there were similarities? Is this a really huge deal
that's worth tempers flaring and accusing people of lying?
Michael R. Grabois
wrote:
>Can someone please tell me exactly what the fuck is so important about
>whether or not Mark Waid has or has not read Twilight?
>(Excuse the profanity, but I see another flame war over something
>extremely pointless developing and it's frustrating.)
Because both Moore's "Twilight" and Waid's/Ross's "Kingdom Come" (and
don't forget that it's as much Alex Ross's project as Mark Waid's)
feature the "dark" future of DC's heroes. Because of similar subject
matter, everyone is afraid Waid will plagiarize the earlier story.
Michael R. Grabois | http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mgrabois
Houston, TX | or...@ix.netcom.com CI$: 74737,2600
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Every person, without exception, who has criticized me fits into
some combination of lowlife and mentally ill." --Mark Hines,
sci.space.shuttle, 12/5/95
KBusiek
independent title with no recognizable characters. Making it
John Byrne's Next Men would help sales because Byrne's name
is a recognizable commodity ("Oh yeah, the guy who did FF!")
It also explains Kurt Busiek's Astro City, etc.>>
Actually, the reason why KURT BUSIEK'S ASTRO CITY has my name in it has
little to do with capitalism. Some people expressed a concern to me that
ASTRO CITY could be construed as a goofy title, and before the book came
out, when those all-important first impressions are made, it might strike
the wrong tone. So I added my name to counterract any potential goofiness
with some good old-fashioned all-American arty-fartsy snottiness. I think
it worked out pretty well.
ann busiek's kurt busiek
Marmel13
Twilight and there were similarities? Is this a really huge deal
that's worth tempers flaring and accusing people of lying?<<
Well, not taking sides (because if the book's good, I don't care if he
read it or not. It's not like Alan Moore's coming out with it) the debate
probably goes like this:
People who like Mark Waid (of which I am one) are taking him at face value
that he never read the book, despite some similarties. If I'm not
incorrect, Moore's idea for Twilight was based on Superheroes dividing up
the US in territiories, to be under their direct juristiction because
things had gotten so bad. I could be wrong... but that's what I remember.
The flip is, if *I* heard about Twilight, and I'm just a reader, it's
difficult to believe that someone in the business hadn't heard about it.
But, in some respects, it doesn't matter. It's a type of story - like a
parallel universe story or an altered time line story - and Alan Moore
doesn't own the copywright on it.
I think what you're picking up on is the desire (which I also hold) to
have seen how Moore would have written it.
____________________________________
Steve
No cute slogans. No bold statements.
Just a way of doing business that means
True Value.
Scott Hollifield
: Because both Moore's "Twilight" and Waid's/Ross's "Kingdom Come" (and
: don't forget that it's as much Alex Ross's project as Mark Waid's)
: feature the "dark" future of DC's heroes. Because of similar subject
: matter, everyone is afraid Waid will plagiarize the earlier story.
"Everyone"?
Come on. From the promo information we've seen, Kingdom Come looks like
nothing like Twilight except the "dark future" aspect -- which was done
already in Armageddeon 2001 on an individual basis.
--
"Ohhh... my gut. I just can't handle these super-speed pursuits! How
was I supposed to know he was the FTD florist?" -- Jonni DC
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scott Hollifield * sco...@cris.com * http://www.cris.com/~scotth/
Lawrence Watt-Evans
says...>> When I bought "Marvels," it was because of Alex Ross' artwork... After
>all, comics
>> is a visual medium.
>
> Just in case this isn't an April Fool's prank and someone is making a
>half-assed attempt to reopen the "artist vs. writer" debate:
> Hitler.
No, come on, you have to do it in context, or it won't work.
Like this: The Nazis thought comics were a visual medium -- Hitler would be
proud of you!
--
For information on Lawrence Watt-Evans, finger -l lawr...@clark.net
or see The Misenchanted Page at http://www.greyware.com/authors/LWE/
The Horror Writers Association Page is at http://www.horror.org/HWA/
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
: The flip is, if *I* heard about Twilight, and I'm just a reader, it's
: difficult to believe that someone in the business hadn't heard about it.
Point of clarification - I *NEVER* said Mark never heard about
"Twilight." I said he never read it, deliberately. Big difference.
King Pharaoh Bobo Ramses III
>
> ann busiek's kurt busiek
(Not to suck up or anything, but...)
Well done. Best line in the thread.
Bill Messick
"ROBINSON, STEPHEN ER" <ROBI...@MUSIC.CC.UGA.EDU> writes:
>Well, it's more simple capitalism than ego. Next Men was an
>independent title with no recognizable characters. Making it
>John Byrne's Next Men would help sales because Byrne's name
>is a recognizable commodity ("Oh yeah, the guy who did FF!")
>It also explains Kurt Busiek's Astro City, etc.
>SER
Making it John Byrne's Next Men could have served to calm down
Marvel's X-citable lawyers, too.
Bill Messick
Marmel13
"Twilight." I said he never read it, deliberately. Big difference.<<
Elayne -
I love you to death, you know that. And in the coming purge of wanna
be's versus already are's, you know I'll be your foot soldier.
But.
If Mark heard about Twilight, then he knew what it was about. My point
is, who cares? Good stories are good stories and if Moore's idea triggers
Waid's idea, I can think of worse ways for creativity to flow.
In the end, it'll all come down to "Is it a good book." Knowing Waid,
and knowing Ross, I'm guessing yes.
rubicon
I don't think that that, and the
>Superman vs. Capt. Marvel thing, is a giveaway that KC is ripoff.
>Besides, does it really matter if Waid read Twilight?
No, not really in that a lot of it has been used by DC already in various
titles ( hello Armageddon 2000) and Mark Waid has proven himself above
mere plagirisation by now ( not that inspired , ahem, 'homages' are
particularly bad - witness Alan Moore's 'Skizz' ( ET meets Boys from the
Blackstuff), 'Halo Jones' ( Book III noticeably nicks bits from Joe
Haldeman's Forever War) ). Warren Ellis did read it though and seemed to
quite enjoy it.
Calvin Hsieh
I wanted to call attention to two things in my original posting:
1. Alex Ross deserves some credit/blame for KC's story.
People still argue over whether Waid has read 'twilight' or not.
When I called it "Alex Ross' Kingdom Come", I just wanted to
remind people of Ross' part on the story. I wasn't suggestion
that DC should title the book as such.
2. Busiek's name appears twice on KBAC's cover.
(It seems to be a trivial point, but arguing about the insignificant
is the whole purpose of USENET, right? :) )
In what follows, I am only talking about independent titles. These are
some of the examples that I found:
Titles with the names of the "creator" who doesn't actually write the comic:
"Neil Gaiman's Mr. Hero", "Leonard Nimoy's Primortal" (spell?)
"Mickey Spillane's Mike Danger".
Single creator titles: Concrete, Hellboy, Sin City
Writer-artist team titles: KBAC, Martha Washington, Nexus
Titles with an "absent" creator:
The covers say: "Neil Gaiman's Mr. Hero", "Leonard Nimoy's Primortal"
"Mickey Spillane's Mike Danger". The names of the writers and
artists of the comic are also on the cover. I think the publication
info also list that the names of the "creator" as a part of the actual
title.
Single creator's work:
This is what the covers say:
we have "Paul Chadwick's Concrete," "Mike Mignola's Hellboy" (where John
Byrne is a 'mere' scripter,) "Sin City" with Frank Miller's name
written above it. If you check the publication info, none of the
creator's names are part of the actual title. The creator's name only
appear once on the cover, excluding the signiture for the art for the
front cover. Putting the creator's name before the title signifies
that he is the sole creator/owner. (I don't have a copy of John
Byrne's Next Men around, so I don't know what it says.)
Writer-Artist Team:
"Martha Washington Stranded in Space": Miller's and Gibbons' names are
printed above the title. The names are not part of the title.
"Nexus: Alien Justice": Baron's and Rude's names are above the title,
not part of the title.
"Kurt Busiek's Astro City": "Busiek, Anderson, Ross" were printed at the
bottom of the page.
Busiek's name is part of the actual title. Just check the publication
info inside the front cover.
"ROBINSON, STEPHEN ER" <ROBI...@MUSIC.CC.UGA.EDU> wrote:
>>.
.
.
>Well, it's more simple capitalism than ego. Next Men was an
>independent title with no recognizable characters. Making it
>John Byrne's Next Men would help sales because Byrne's name
>is a recognizable commodity ("Oh yeah, the guy who did FF!")
>It also explains Kurt Busiek's Astro City, etc.
>
>SER
>>
Why not remove Busiek's name from the title, and put
"Busiek, Anderson, Ross" above "Astro City" if they want to use Busiek's
name to sell the title? (Frankly, it is Ross' cover the sold me the book.
Perhaps they should rename it "Alex Ross' Astro City." I'm sure you have
noticed that there are many postings detailing how people drool
over Ross' pencils for KC like Pavlov's dog, but how many people would
do the same for Busiek's or Waid's incomplete scripts? There may still
be a lot, but I doubt the number would even come close to those
for Ross's pencils.)
kbu...@aol.com (KBusiek) wrote:
>.
.
.
>
>Actually, the reason why KURT BUSIEK'S ASTRO CITY has my name in it has
>little to do with capitalism. Some people expressed a concern to me that
>ASTRO CITY could be construed as a goofy title, and before the book came
>out, when those all-important first impressions are made, it might strike
>the wrong tone. So I added my name to counterract any potential goofiness
>with some good old-fashioned all-American arty-fartsy snottiness. I think
>it worked out pretty well.
>
>ann busiek's kurt busiek
If Kurt writes KBAC as a novel, would he still call it
"Kurt Busiek's Astro City", and below that would we see in
smaller print: "By Kurt Busiek"?
(Hey, wait a minute. The name at the bottom of KBAC's cover only
says "Busiek" without a first name. Perhaps it means *gasp* ANN Busiek!?)
I think the copyright of KBAC is owned by Juke Box Productions. Is
Busiek the sole owner of Juke Box? Do Anderson and Ross have any
claims to the ownership of the characters, or are they 'hired-hands'
and therefore readily replaceable?
The artists deserve more credit in this case. Their names should be
up "there," with Kurt's name, above the title. Use the logos of Nexus
and Martha Washington as models.
*** Next: the fight for the letterer's name above the title. :) ***
C.H.
Nick Eden
>In article <4jrbcn$g...@saba.info.ucla.edu> Calvin Hsieh <calvin> writes:
>>What I am trying to say is, I get really annoyed at seeing people's name
>>being a part of a title. In movies, we have "Bram Stoker's Dracula".
>>The purpose of including Stoker's name is to distinguish this movie from
>>all the other Dracula movies that was previously made. It also tells the
>>moviegoers that this movie is somehow more "authentic" than those other
>>Dracula films. This makes sense.
>>
>>But "Kurt Busiek's Astro City"? Are there some other Astro Cities that I
>>have missed? There might have been. If there are other Astro Cities, please
>>tell me about it. Same thing with Mr. Hero. Duh. I mean "Neil Gaiman's Mr. Hero."
>>
>>Please don't misunderstand me. KBAC is one of my favorite titles in the past year.
>>But this blatant self-promotion is making me sick. It irritates me every
>>time I pick up the comic and it lessens my enjoyment of the story.
>>
>>I don't read "Neil Gaiman's Mr. Hero." But from what I heard, Neil Gaiman created
>>the character and the story premise, but he isn't the writer. Please correct me
>>if I am wrong. I guess the use of his name in the title is intended to help sell
>>a book he doesn't write, not self promotion.
>>
>>
>>Does anyone else feel the same way?
>>
>Well, it's more simple capitalism than ego. Next Men was an
>independent title with no recognizable characters. Making it
>John Byrne's Next Men would help sales because Byrne's name
>is a recognizable commodity ("Oh yeah, the guy who did FF!")
>It also explains Kurt Busiek's Astro City, etc.
Mr Hero on the other hand is more cynical. Gaimen scribbled a few
notes down on a menu sometime and consequently his name goes on the
book. Not because he's working on it or anything, but simply because
it's knwon that having his name on the cover will get some sales from
his more credulous fans.
Aside: Did anyone else get bugged by the way Alfred Hitchcock and the
Three Investigators books got filed under hitchcock in bookshops. He
was a character in the books for goodness sake, not the writer!
Katharine Martin
Paul Moorehead (moor...@math.washington.edu) wrote:
>: But, Elayne, how do you know Waid hasn't read 'Twilight'? Is it because
>: he said he hasn't?
>Yes, and I have further verification. I've no doubt he's HEARD of it,
>but I also have no trouble believing, with all the accusations he KNOWS
>would fly against him on this, that he's stayed far, far away from it.
And I would tend to believe that statement.
>:I mean, I don't believe that he really wishes Liefeld
>:luck with 'Captain America', so why would I believe it if he says that he
>:didn't rip off someone else's idea?
It's your priveledge, but I think it's just making things harder on you,
on Waid, on the 'net in general, and probably on my aunt Edna, had I an
Aunt Edna.
I mean, are you going to start doubting everything a creator says, just
because you think he rips off other folks' ideas? Why not just follow
Occam and _take the explanation given_? It's a lot less stressful.
And for God's sake, what cause do you have to think Waid's a liar? Cripes.
--
Kate Martin jul...@haven.boston.ma.us k...@gnu.ai.mit.edu
"Bisexual Barbie: Comes in a package with Skipper and Ken." "Birkenstock
Barbie: Finally, a Barbie doll with horizontal feet and comfortable
sandals. Made from recycled materials." -- Barbies we'd like to see
The Pulse
: I guess I was unclear in my first post.
: I wanted to call attention to two things in my original posting:
: 1. Alex Ross deserves some credit/blame for KC's story.
: People still argue over whether Waid has read 'twilight' or not.
: When I called it "Alex Ross' Kingdom Come", I just wanted to
: remind people of Ross' part on the story. I wasn't suggestion
: that DC should title the book as such.
:
: 2. Busiek's name appears twice on KBAC's cover.
:
: (It seems to be a trivial point, but arguing about the insignificant
: is the whole purpose of USENET, right? :) )
:
: In what follows, I am only talking about independent titles. These are
: some of the examples that I found:
:
: Titles with the names of the "creator" who doesn't actually write the comic:
: "Neil Gaiman's Mr. Hero", "Leonard Nimoy's Primortal" (spell?)
: "Mickey Spillane's Mike Danger".
: Single creator titles: Concrete, Hellboy, Sin City
: Writer-artist team titles: KBAC, Martha Washington, Nexus
:
:
: Titles with an "absent" creator:
: The covers say: "Neil Gaiman's Mr. Hero", "Leonard Nimoy's Primortal"
: "Mickey Spillane's Mike Danger". The names of the writers and
: artists of the comic are also on the cover. I think the publication
: info also list that the names of the "creator" as a part of the actual
: title.
Apples and oranges. Tekno comics is just selling titles on name recognition
only, that's why it's Neil gaiman's mr Hero and Isaac Asimov's I-bots.
It's a time-honoured tradition in book publishing. Just look at any of the new
V.C Andrews books.
(irrelevant stuff omitted)
: "Kurt Busiek's Astro City": "Busiek, Anderson, Ross" were printed at the
: bottom of the page.
: Busiek's name is part of the actual title. Just check the publication
: info inside the front cover.
:
:
: "ROBINSON, STEPHEN ER" <ROBI...@MUSIC.CC.UGA.EDU> wrote:
: >>.
: .
: .
:
: >Well, it's more simple capitalism than ego. Next Men was an
: >independent title with no recognizable characters. Making it
: >John Byrne's Next Men would help sales because Byrne's name
: >is a recognizable commodity ("Oh yeah, the guy who did FF!")
: >It also explains Kurt Busiek's Astro City, etc.
: >
: >SER
: >>
:
:
: Why not remove Busiek's name from the title, and put
: "Busiek, Anderson, Ross" above "Astro City" if they want to use Busiek's
: name to sell the title? (Frankly, it is Ross' cover the sold me the book.
: Perhaps they should rename it "Alex Ross' Astro City." I'm sure you have
: noticed that there are many postings detailing how people drool
: over Ross' pencils for KC like Pavlov's dog, but how many people would
: do the same for Busiek's or Waid's incomplete scripts? There may still
: be a lot, but I doubt the number would even come close to those
: for Ross's pencils.)
Hey, it's Kurt's baby! The only thing Alex Ross has to do with
Astro City is the designs of (some of) the characters and the covers.
Basically, afaik and imho, it was Kurt Busiek's project and not
Brent Anderson's or Alex Ross. Just as Marvels was originally a
Alex Ross project. Astro City will not end when Alex Ross or Brent
Anderson stop working on it, it will stop when Kurt Busiek can't or
won`t write it anymore. Which doesn't mean of course that Alex and
Brent aren't important to the Astro city project. Both bring their own
contributions to the comic without which Astro City wouldn't be what it
is today. But that is the same with any good creative team. American
comics being what they are, it's rare to see single creator comics.
Kurt Busiek just wanted a good team to translate his visions into
good comics and succeeded with Anderson/Ross.
: kbu...@aol.com (KBusiek) wrote:
: >.
: .
: .
: >
: >Actually, the reason why KURT BUSIEK'S ASTRO CITY has my name in it has
: >little to do with capitalism. Some people expressed a concern to me that
: >ASTRO CITY could be construed as a goofy title, and before the book came
: >out, when those all-important first impressions are made, it might strike
: >the wrong tone. So I added my name to counterract any potential goofiness
: >with some good old-fashioned all-American arty-fartsy snottiness. I think
: >it worked out pretty well.
: >
: >ann busiek's kurt busiek
Also, since it was first brougth out by Image, calling it just Astro
City could have caused people to believe Astro City was just another
typical (=worthless to many ppl)Image comic. Consider also there is
a comics publisher called Astro City and it makes a strong case to call
it KBAC and not Astro City. After all, it's Busiek`s project, with Alex
Ross and Brent Anderson helping out to translate his scripts into
comics. (I don't think anybody would like to see Kurt trying to draw
Astro City, do we?)*
* Unless it's done a la Matt Feazel hmmm Astro City 101/2...
You are now leaving Astro City. Please drive carefully.
THE PULSE a.k.a. Martin Wisse
Visit the first Astro City homepage at:
HTTP://www.cs.vu.nl/~mwisse/astro.html
(At least it's not the KBAC homepage...)
Lawrence Watt-Evans
>I think the copyright of KBAC is owned by Juke Box Productions. Is
>Busiek the sole owner of Juke Box?
Well, Kurt and Ann jointly, yeah. Kurt's been using the Juke Box name for
years on any number of projects, it wasn't created for Astro City.
> Do Anderson and Ross have any
>claims to the ownership of the characters, or are they 'hired-hands'
>and therefore readily replaceable?
Somewhere in between, as I understand it, but Kurt can tell you more than
I.
Calvin Hsieh
I know you are probably going to retain the title "Kurt Busiek's Astro City"
for the comic. But can you replace the names ("Busiek, Anderson, Ross") at
the bottom of the the cover with something along the line of, say,
"With Art by Anderson and Ross," please?
C.H.
Katharine Martin
>>>Oh, sure, I get that. I guess my point was, so what if he had read
>Twilight and there were similarities? Is this a really huge deal
>that's worth tempers flaring and accusing people of lying?<<
>People who like Mark Waid (of which I am one) are taking him at face value
>that he never read the book, despite some similarties. If I'm not
Y'know, even if it was Howard Mackie, Bane of Rac.Mx, I'd believe him if
he said he'd never read it. Is there something wrong with me?
>The flip is, if *I* heard about Twilight, and I'm just a reader, it's
>difficult to believe that someone in the business hadn't heard about it.
Well, I've heard of it, but I've never read it. It can happen...
>I think what you're picking up on is the desire (which I also hold) to
>have seen how Moore would have written it.
Yeah. Sigh.
PETER POOLE
Ummmmm.... I'm a little behind the times here, can someone point
me to an FTP site or WWWpage where I can actually see the Twilight
thingy everyone keeps referring to?
Ta in advance.
Cheers, PJP
* 1st 2.00 #339 * Success is a great deodorant.
Michael R. Grabois
POOLE) wrote:
> Ummmmm.... I'm a little behind the times here, can someone point
>me to an FTP site or WWWpage where I can actually see the Twilight
>thingy everyone keeps referring to?
Go to http://www.redweb.com/wraithspace/ and use the search function.
Joseph A Santoro Jr
: In article <4jvrmt$m...@saba.info.ucla.edu>, calvin says...
:
<astro city debate clipped>
Any word as to when Astro City will be back?
-- Wildfire
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
: Any word as to when Astro City will be back?
Here we go again! <g> There follows Kurt's announcement on same.
- Elayne
------------------------------------
From: Kurt Busiek <kbu...@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc
Subject: NEWS: Astro City Returns
Date: 2 Mar 1996 02:50:52 GMT
Organization: Juke Box Productions
I promised I'd be telling everyone the details of ASTRO CITY's return
from hiatus just as soon as the details were concrete and announceable.
Well, they're concrete now, so here I am. And here's the text of a
press release that'll be going on Monday:
# # #
Astro City Returns at the Forefront of a New Imprint
San Diego, 3/2/96-- Jim Lee announced today a new imprint of
creator-owned comics, to be published as Homage Comics, launching in
August with the hotly-anticipated return of Kurt Busiek's Astro City.
The new Homage Comics line will not be part of Image Comics, and will be
solicited separately from the other titles published by Lee's WildStorm
Productions. Homage Comics will be exclusively distributed by Diamond
Comics.
August marks twelve months from the release of Kurt Busiek's Astro City
#1, in 1995, and six months since the release of the final issue in the
popular title's first run. The new Homage Comics series will be numbered
Volume 2, #1. Writer Kurt Busiek, artist Brent Anderson and
letterer/designer Richard Starkings and Comicraft will continue on the
series, joined by inker Will Blyberg, who has worked with Anderson on
Anima, and who is Busiek and Anderson's first choice for the job.
Interior colors on the relaunched series will be handled by WildStorm
Effects. Alex Ross, of course, will continue to provide painted covers
for the series.
While Kurt Busiek's Astro City Vol. 2, #1 doesn't ship until August, the
launch actually begins in July with the publication of ASTRO CITY: LIFE
IN THE BIG CITY, a trade paperback compilation of the title's first six
issues. Also in July, WildStorm Emporium will solicit a poster of one of
Alex Ross's cover paintings from the first six issues.
"Homage Comics is something I've wanted to do for a long time," Jim Lee
said. "I want to publish the best of the creator-owned projects out
there. It was basically a matter of finding the right property to kick
it off with, and we've done that with Astro City. Kurt's a great writer
doing his best work ever on this series, and it's one of the real
standouts of 1995. I'm thrilled to be bringing it back, and I'm sure
it'll be every bit as good as it was -- or better!"
Of his book's new home, Busiek said, "I'm delighted with this deal, and
I'm very pleased to be working with WildStorm. We originally put Astro
City on hiatus for schedule reasons. Working directly with Image Comics
has been a ball, and I'd like to stress that in terms of creative
freedom, control and support, it has easily been the best publishing
relationship I've ever been in. But it's also been an enormous amount
of work, as I found myself acting as writer, editor, packager,
promotions and sales person, and so on. It's work I enjoyed doing, but
along with the rest of my workload, it was extremely draining. So the
thought of another publisher, who could take some of that work off my
shoulders without taking creative freedom along with it was a welcome
thought, and right from the start, talking with Jim Lee about bringing
Astro City to WildStorm was relaxing and encouraging. Jim's a very
smart guy, and he's been full of suggestions on how to promote the book
better. At the same time, though, he didn't want me to sign over any
rights I didn't want to give up, or add spin-offs or ancillary products
that I just wouldn't want to do. Jim knows how important being in
control of WildC.A.T.s has been to him, so he knows how I feel about
staying in charge of Astro City.
"So far, I've been talking with WildStorm managing editor Mike Heisler
about the content of the book, since he'll be the one who'll be watching
over us to make sure we get our stuff done on time and to encourage us
to realize our own creative vision as best we can, and with Jeff
Mariotte about the relaunch and promotion of the series, and I've got to
say I'm delighted. I'm very confident in their dedication and their
abilities, and I'm glad that I'll be able to concentrate on the creative
end of things, secure that the business side is in good hands.
"I'm also very flattered to be chosen as the series that'll launch an
imprint. I'm glad Jim has this kind of faith in us, and I hope we'll be
able to make Homage a terrific home for creator-owned work."
Busiek went on to describe the direction Astro City will take at Homage
Comics. "Astro City will relaunch with a single-issue story that details
one eventful night in the life of Astro City, and examines the question,
'Why would people choose to live in Astro City, anyway?' We'll see the
city under siege by a major, powerful, cosmic and evil force, with the
heroes of the city rallied against it, a threat equivalent to the coming
of Galactus or some other such cosmic danger. By following the events,
news reports, public reaction and such, we'll get a portrait of the city
that'll serve to introduce new readers to the concept of the series,
showcasing various of the Astro City heroes from the cosmic to the
street-level crimefighters, along with various established Astro City
neighborhoods and bits of Astro City history.
"Following that, we'll do our first two-part story, taking a look at the
Astro City heroes on whom we've received the most requests for more
information: The First Family. We'll learn about who they are, what
their background is and how they fit into the Astro City world, all as
seen through the eyes of Astra, the youngest member of the team. She's
a third-generation superhero, and has grown up in the public spotlight
all her life. What life is like for her and how she deals with the
expectations that swirl around her will be at the heart of this
two-parter.
"With #4, we'll at long last get to the story that was originally
planned to follow-up the first six issues -- a six-part "epic" about a
young teenager who comes to Astro City with dreams of becoming a teen
sidekick. How he tries to accomplish this, and what he discovers about
himself and his dreams along the way, will be the heart of a story that
sprawls through all the facets of Astro City that we've seen so far --
there'll be crime-fighting, aliens, social upheaval, political turmoil,
mysticism, character origins, religion and more, and we're champing at
the bit to get to it.
"After that, the sky's the limit. We've got plans for stories about
super-villains, talking gorillas, Astro City history, the personal lives
of Honor Guard, Astro City's future ... I've literally got years worth
of material planned for this book, and I'm confident we'll be able to
keep it exciting, surprising and involving for a long time to come."
Other titles in the Homage Comics line of creator-owned books will be
announced soon.
# # #
That's the news. Thanks for your patience, all, and I hope you're as
happy about this as I am.
I've posted this press release here on Usenet, and on Compuserve, Genie
and AOL. If you know of somewhere else it should go, please pass it along
-- you've got my permission to post it and my gratitude for helping spread
the word.
Thanks,
kurt
Lawrence Watt-Evans
>
>Lawrence Watt-Evans (lawr...@clark.net) wrote:
>: In article <4jvrmt$m...@saba.info.ucla.edu>, calvin says...
>:
><astro city debate clipped>
>
August.
Kurt Busiek
> Busiek the sole owner of Juke Box? Do Anderson and Ross have any
> claims to the ownership of the characters, or are they 'hired-hands'
> and therefore readily replaceable?
Ann and I own Juke Box Productions, and we're buying the rights from
Brent, Alex, etc. on a non-work-for-hire basis, the details of which are
really between us and them.
Are they "readily replaceable"? I wouldn't say "readily," no. But the
reason we set up the book this way is that if Brent wants to quit and go
do something else, I get to find another artist and continue the series
without getting entangled in a morass of permissions and consultations.
ASTRO CITY is my baby, and I want to do it for years and years. I want
Brent to draw it for just as long as I write it, but I recognize that he
may want to do something else at some point. When and if that point
comes, and we part ways, ASTRO CITY goes with me.
kurt
PS: Note new address, folks.
Kurt Busiek
>
> Kurt, if you read this:
>
> I know you are probably going to retain the title "Kurt Busiek's Astro City"
> the bottom of the the cover with something along the line of, say,
> "With Art by Anderson and Ross," please?
No, sorry.
Every time I've suggested something like this, Richard Starkings argues
me out of it. His position (and as designer of the book and thus
responsible for the cover set-up, he's quite firm in his opinions) is
that the "Kurt Busiek's" in the title identifies the book as "mine,"
but that if we run other credits on the cover, my name must be among
them or people will assume that I didn't write the book -- the NEIL
GAIMAN'S MISTER HERO trap.
I'm not in favor of standardized packaging -- note that I put the cover
artist's name in the credits and on the cover line, unlike many other
books. I want what'll communicate best, not what fits some sort of
generic, this-is-what-everybody-does format. So my name being in the
logo identifies me as being the owner of the book. My name in the
credits and cover line identifies me as being the writer. Both of those
are accurate.
If it make you feel better, I did consult with both Brent and Alex
before doing this -- I told them that plans were to put my name in the
title and theirs, along with mine, in the cover credits, but that I was
uneasy about appearing egotistical and wouldn't do it if they felt
slighted by it. Both of them said go ahead, they had no problem with
it. And Richard told me that if I didn't shut up and show some ego,
he'd put my name on the cover _three_ times.
So I'm sorry you don't like it, but I think it's going to stay.
kurt
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
: PS: Note new address, folks.
Welcome back. So *this* is where you've been - out shopping for a new
ISP. <g> Can this one be used for E-mail responses & stuff too (in other
words, this is the one I should put in my reviews of your stuff from now on)?
- Elayne
Kirby Krueger
Kurt Busiek <kdbu...@teleport.com> wrote:
>
>ASTRO CITY is my baby, and I want to do it for years and years.
As much as I love the current creative team across the board, I must say
that this line is very encouraging. I don't want another half-year without
my Astro City fix - it's really earned its place at the top of my comic
list. I'm very glad that you enjoy doing Astro City so much - as long as
that's the case, I have no fear that I'll be along for the ride. Kurt
Busiek is clearly a success in the comics field, and if he can keep up the
passion and effectiveness of Astro City, then I have no fear that his
name will be uttered by our children, next to Kirby, Ditko, and Seigel.
>kurt
>
>PS: Note new address, folks.
Free at last from Netcruiser, I see. From all I've heard (mostly from
friends that work for Netcom who shall remain anonymous), this is probably
a good thing for you. Congratulations.
And for all of you still using Netcruiser, technical support suggests
that it works better if you take the cat off the keyboard. (Actual technical
call.)
--
Kirby Krueger O- kir...@peak.org
<*> "Most .sigs this small can't open their own jump gate."
Kurt Busiek
>
> Kurt
> Busiek is clearly a success in the comics field, and if he can keep up the
> passion and effectiveness of Astro City, then I have no fear that his
> name will be uttered by our children, next to Kirby, Ditko, and Seigel.
Aw, shucks (kickin' dirt).
> Free at last from Netcruiser, I see.
Netcruiser?
> From all I've heard (mostly from
> friends that work for Netcom who shall remain anonymous), this is probably
> a good thing for you.
Actually, Netcom Tech Support was always very prompt and helpful, and I
have nothing bad to say about Netcom; I think my trouble was more
software-related than anything else.
kurt
Kurt Busiek
>
> Welcome back. So *this* is where you've been - out shopping for a new
> ISP. <g> Can this one be used for E-mail responses & stuff too (in other
> words, this is the one I should put in my reviews of your stuff from now on)?
Actually, I've been here all along -- I just (a) didn't have much to say
(b) hard a hard time finding new messages, since whenever I checked
UseNet through my then-new ISP, it would tell me there were no new
messages, and I'd have to scroll through "old" messages to find anything
I hadn't yet seen, and (c) I could never manage to get or send e-mail.
But now I've got a new ISP, a new version of Open Transport, a new
System Update and Navigator 2.0 instead of the stripped-down version
that comes with the Internet Connect Kit for the Mac. So I don't blame
my previous ISP -- they were very nice guys -- but I'm sticking with the
combination of system, software and ISP that were working when the music
stopped...
kurt
Michael R. Grabois
<kdbu...@teleport.com> wrote:
>> I think the copyright of KBAC is owned by Juke Box Productions. Is
>> Busiek the sole owner of Juke Box? Do Anderson and Ross have any
>> claims to the ownership of the characters, or are they 'hired-hands'
>> and therefore readily replaceable?
>Ann and I own Juke Box Productions, and we're buying the rights from
>Brent, Alex, etc. on a non-work-for-hire basis, the details of which are
>really between us and them.
OK, let's settle this once and for all. Just what exactly is
"work-for-hire" and how is it different from what Brent, Alex, and et
al are doing on KBAC? (In general terms, of course, not getting to
specifics if you can).
Kurt Busiek
>
> OK, let's settle this once and for all. Just what exactly is
> "work-for-hire" and how is it different from what Brent, Alex, and et
> al are doing on KBAC? (In general terms, of course, not getting to
> specifics if you can).
"Work-made-for-hire" or "work-for-hire" is a specific legal term that
treats the creator -- writer, artist, letterer, whomever -- as if he or
she is an employee of the company for the purposes of copyright,
declaring the _company_ to be the legal author of the work. The
creator never owned the work, since he or she created it under terms
that said he or she was simply an extension of the company while doing
it.
This differs from what's done on ASTRO CITY in that what's done on ASTRO
CITY isn't work-for-hire, but a purchase of rights that acknowledges
the creators' authorship of their part of the work. This involves
certain legal differences (like the eventuality of reversion of those
rights), but what's more important, at least to me, is that it's far
more polite. I'm buying the rights I need to do ASTRO CITY the way I
want to do it, from talented creative collaborators, under terms
acceptable to them that compensate them for the use of their work in any
form -- I'm not pretending that they're tools I happened to pick up.
kurt
Dave Good
> "Work-made-for-hire" or "work-for-hire" is a specific legal term that
> treats the creator -- writer, artist, letterer, whomever -- as if he or
> she is an employee of the company for the purposes of copyright,
> declaring the _company_ to be the legal author of the work. The
> creator never owned the work, since he or she created it under terms
> that said he or she was simply an extension of the company while doing
> it.
>
> This differs from what's done on ASTRO CITY in that what's done on ASTRO
> CITY isn't work-for-hire, but a purchase of rights that acknowledges
> the creators' authorship of their part of the work. This involves
> certain legal differences (like the eventuality of reversion of those
> rights), but what's more important, at least to me, is that it's far
> more polite.
I've always wondered about this myself. Is it just a semantics point?
I mean, you still own the characters, and, basically, the comic. The
artwork, I assume, reverts to the artist and he continues to receive
royalties. But isn't this just glorified work for hire?
I think it's important to be more polite and make sure the artist feels
their contribution is appreciated and respected beyond the monetary
compensation. But I guess I don't see how, legally, this is any
different. They just get a warm fuzzy feeling when they get their
paycheck.
(I am not saying there is anything wrong with work for hire, btw. I
think it is fair as long as the terms of the agreement are clear and
acceptable to both parties.)
--
Dave Good DG...@POMONA.EDU
"I geh a sense of ih, I just don't unnerstan' ih" --Nigel Tufnel
Kurt Busiek
>
> I've always wondered about this myself. Is it just a semantics point?
Nope.
> I mean, you still own the characters, and, basically, the comic. The
> artwork, I assume, reverts to the artist and he continues to receive
> royalties. But isn't this just glorified work for hire?
No. Your assumptions are limited; the implications of a rights purchase
rather than a work-for-hire deal go further than what you describe.
They won't have a whole lot to do with the relationship between the
comic book and the audience, but they have a significant effect on the
professional relationship between Brent and me, and how the rights I've
bought from him can be put to use. But I don't negotiate contracts in
public; if you'd like to know more about work-for-hire and its alter-
natives in the abstract, you may want to consult a lawyer; if you want
to know more about the details of the ASTRO CITY contracts, with all due
respect, they're not your business.
> I am not saying there is anything wrong with work for hire, btw.
Nor am I; I do work-for-hire assignments on a regular basis. But saying
there's nothing wrong with a Nissan Maxima doesn't make a Honda Civic a
Nissan Maxima, glorified or otherwise. If all you care about is "economy
car," you may not see much difference, but if what you care about is
the warranty, the service agreement and so on, you may see it differently.
kurt
Lawrence Watt-Evans
says...
>
>OK, let's settle this once and for all. Just what exactly is
>"work-for-hire" and how is it different from what Brent, Alex, and et
>al are doing on KBAC? (In general terms, of course, not getting to
>specifics if you can).
I don't know Kurt's arrangement with Alex and Brent -- I assume it's some
sort of collaborative agreement -- but I can explain work-made-for-hire.
Under international copyright law, including (since 1978) the U.S., the
moment any creative work is produced, it's the property of the person who
created it, and while that person can lease or sell particular rights to
that work, he still owns every right he does not specifically sign away, and
in fact even if he signs away ALL his rights, he still has what's called
droit morale (moral rights), meaning that he can prevent the buyer from
altering the work in such a way as to vitiate or reverse its significance.
(Actually, when the U.S. agreed to join the International Copyright
Convention, we did so with the reservation that we might not accept droit
morale in all cases.)
As an example of droit morale, a filmmaker might forbid someone to colorize
his work even if he no longer owns any of the rights to it. This was an
issue, in fact, when Ted Turner began colorizing stuff, and went to trial,
and because of that U.S. reservation I'm not sure how it came out, or even
whether it's entirely settled.
Anyway, the one exception to this basic law of copyright ownership is
"work-for-hire" or "work-made-for-hire," where a person is under contract to
produce a given work for someone else (usually a corporation), who will be
the legal creator. For example, when I wrote "Frontiers" for Marvel's OPEN
SPACE #1, I had to sign Marvel's standard contract BEFORE I BEGAN WORK,
saying that anything I wrote using Marvel's characters or settings was
work-for-hire, and I would have no proprietary rights in it, it would be
entirely Marvel's.
If there's no contract before the work is created, then it's not
work-for-hire. Period. If the contract doesn't SAY it's work-for-hire,
then it's not work-for-hire. Period. Those are the two basic requirements
to make something work-for-hire.
When I wrote "Cool" for THE ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN, I was ordered NOT to send a
complete story until after I had a contract -- I was only to send an
outline, and I was not to begin work on the actual story until the contracts
were signed. This was so it could be work-for-hire. (Actually, though, I
hate writing outlines, so I sent the first draft of the story and said that
was my outline. Marvel was mildly annoyed about this.)
Since those stories I wrote for Marvel ARE work-for-hire, though -- I signed
the contracts before finishing them, and understood what I was signing -- I
have no say whatsoever about what happens to them; I do not own any part of
them; I have no droit morale; Marvel doesn't HAVE to pay me if they reprint
them (though the contract says they will). They belong completely and
entirely to Marvel, and any further payment I might receive for any use of
them would legally be a bonus, not something I'm entitled to.
In a collaboration, though, you can draw up any contracts you like, saying
who owns what, and I assume that that's what Kurt, Brent, and Alex have
done.
Lawrence Watt-Evans
says...
> I've always wondered about this myself. Is it just a semantics point?
>I mean, you still own the characters, and, basically, the comic. The
>artwork, I assume, reverts to the artist and he continues to receive
>royalties. But isn't this just glorified work for hire?
Let us suppose that ten years from now, when ASTRO CITY has become the
world's best-selling comic book, Kurt gets run over by a truck. Let us
further suppose that he's gone insane and left his entire estate to the
Church of Scientology. The Scientologists decide to reprint ASTRO CITY #1
in solid gold and sell copies for a gazillion dollars apiece.
Let us also suppose that Alex and Brent don't like this idea.
If ASTRO CITY were work-for-hire, the Scientologists could tell Alex and
Brent to go take a flying leap, and publish the book anyway.
Since it is NOT work-for-hire, Brent and Alex can instead tell the
Scientologists to go screw themselves, they can't reprint the art. They can
re-use the script, which Kurt owns, but not the art.
Michael R. Grabois
wrote:
>In article <4kpcp5$a...@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, or...@ix.netcom.com
>says...
>>
>>OK, let's settle this once and for all. Just what exactly is
>>"work-for-hire" and how is it different from what Brent, Alex, and et
>>al are doing on KBAC? (In general terms, of course, not getting to
>>specifics if you can).
>I don't know Kurt's arrangement with Alex and Brent -- I assume it's some
>sort of collaborative agreement -- but I can explain work-made-for-hire.
[excellent analysis snipped-- thanks!]
FAQ-keepers take note: this should go in the rac.misc FAQ.
Dave Borak
Lawrence Watt-Evans <lawr...@clark.net> wrote:
>Let us suppose that ten years from now, when ASTRO CITY has become the
>world's best-selling comic book, Kurt gets run over by a truck. Let us
>further suppose that he's gone insane and left his entire estate to the
>Church of Scientology.
Gee. You'd never know you were a fantasy writer! :)
Dave
--
No. | Dave Borak
Not even in the face of armegeddon.| dbo...@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu
Never compromise. |--------------------------------------
-Rorschach "Watchmen" | "STUPID, STUPID RAT CREATURES!" -Bone
Tracey Steele
> Michael R. Grabois wrote:
> >
> > OK, let's settle this once and for all. Just what exactly is
> > "work-for-hire" and how is it different from what Brent, Alex, and et
> > al are doing on KBAC? (In general terms, of course, not getting to
> > specifics if you can).
>
> "Work-made-for-hire" or "work-for-hire" is a specific legal term that
> treats the creator -- writer, artist, letterer, whomever -- as if he or
> she is an employee of the company for the purposes of copyright,
> declaring the _company_ to be the legal author of the work. The
> creator never owned the work, since he or she created it under terms
> that said he or she was simply an extension of the company while doing
> it.
>
> This differs from what's done on ASTRO CITY in that what's done on ASTRO
> CITY isn't work-for-hire, but a purchase of rights that acknowledges
> the creators' authorship of their part of the work. This involves
> certain legal differences (like the eventuality of reversion of those
> rights), but what's more important, at least to me, is that it's far
> more polite. I'm buying the rights I need to do ASTRO CITY the way I
> want to do it, from talented creative collaborators, under terms
> acceptable to them that compensate them for the use of their work in any
> form -- I'm not pretending that they're tools I happened to pick up.
>
> kurt
For all the negative things that are said about the industry's current
state, I think this is a sign of progress--as a creator, you know how
important these issues are, and now you can use leverage that people who
came before you just didn't have.
I can't wait for #7 to hit the stores--so far, ASTRO CITY has been a great ride.
Tracey
--
Tracey Steele "Who is John Galt?" --Ayn Rand
tra...@toledolink.com "Thou art God." --Robert A. Heinlein