Issues with Batman Begins (SPOILERS)
Bort
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I read through a lot of Batman Begins posts on here, and i didn't see a
lot of these issues brought up. If they have been, i apologize in
advance, and you guys can just skim over the stuff that's been said
before.
Also, before i begin, i wanted to say that i did like the movie, it
just wasn't what i was expecting.
Issues/questions:
1. So batman learned everything from ra's? I mean i know obviously he
showed he knew how to fight in that camp, but still, all the shadow,
theatrics, stealth, certain weapons. It looks like almost everything
he learned came from ra's. I prefer the comic version where he
traveled all over the world to pick up his skills. I realize it's not
feasible to show that in a movie in detail, but still, i would have
liked to have seen other influences.
2. Isn't his name pronounced "raysh"? Not sure where i heard this,
maybe on batman: the animated series? When i first read the name i
thought it was "roz", but then having heard it pronounced "raysh" at
some point, i always figured that's what it was. I was surprised to
hear it as "roz" in this movie.
3. I felt that not only having joe chill be captured, but having him be
KILLED defeats a lot of what batman is. To some extent, every criminal
batman is chasing down is a joe chill who hasn't been caught, just like
the one who killed bruce's parents. Now i know in the comics there
have been stories where joe chill was caught, but for a very long time
he wasn't, and i felt that's what made batman the character he is.
Anyone else have an issue with this?
4. I know this was previously brought up, but seriously, he's the "dark
night detective", where were his sleuthing skills??? When the fake
ra's started speaking in the foreign language, i half expected bruce to
come back speaking the language.
I know there have been debates about bruce going from "good detective"
to "super genius who knows everything" for no apparent reason, but
still would have been a nice touch.
And i ALSO thought bruce was going to be able to make the antidote
himself. I mean he knows chemistry in the comics and on BTAS. Maybe
they wanted to add some realism and not make him know everything, but
that's part of the character.
And then again, he did ZERO detective work. He didn't even have to
find out who was behind the scarecrow's plot. Ra's came to him.
Needless to say, i was disappointed with that aspect.
5. He really wasn't batman very much in the movie. I think there were
about three major scenes where he was in costume for more than 5
minutes. Maybe that's normal for superhero movies, but it sure seemed
like we saw a lot more of spider-man in his first movie.
6. I imagined michael cain having a much more high class british
accent. He sounded a bit cockney and lower class. I guess you would
assume someone who's a butler wouldn't really have come from the best
lineage. Maybe i've been spoiled by BTAS where alfred sounds so
proper.
7. I could have done without bale shouting as batman. He just sounded
weird when he was trying to be gruff and yell at the same time. I
think he could have been just as imposing by speaking at a normal tone.
8. I don't know about you guys, but the first time we actually saw that
first shot of batman in the mask...it just looked kind of absurd to me.
I mean i think if i was a crook and saw him for the first time i'd
start laughing.
9. The fight scenes were kind of hard to see. I understand that with a
batman movie it's supposed to be dark, but how can we appreciate what
kind of martial arts master he is when you can't even see his movies?
10. Was Lucard (or whatever name it was Liam Neeson first used) a
character in the comics?
Any responses welcome...and again, i did like the movie, i guess i just
expected something different.
gerard.morvan
"Bort" <bro...@hotmail.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
1119763938.8...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> 10. Was Lucard (or whatever name it was Liam Neeson first used) a
> character in the comics?
>
That's Ducard, and indeed he is. Created by Sam Hamm for the trilogy Blind
Justice, which started around issue 600 of Detective Comics. Still my
favourite french comic book character.
Gérard Morvan
"Kentoc'h Mervel!"
Ibn Tumart
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>2. Isn't his name pronounced "raysh"? Not sure where i heard this,
>maybe on batman: the animated series? When i first read the name i
>thought it was "roz", but then having heard it pronounced "raysh" at
>some point, i always figured that's what it was. I was surprised to
>hear it as "roz" in this movie.
>
>
It's an Arabic word and should be pronounced "ra (glottal stop) ees."
Pronouncing it "raysh" is as incorrect as "roz," really, so I didn't care.
>6. I imagined michael cain having a much more high class british
>accent. He sounded a bit cockney and lower class. I guess you would
>assume someone who's a butler wouldn't really have come from the best
>lineage. Maybe i've been spoiled by BTAS where alfred sounds so
>proper.
>
>
Michael Caine spoke with his normal accent as far as I could tell. Did
you mean you wish Alfred spoke with a more posh English accent? If so,
well, again this isn't something that bugged me, but I can see how it
could be a bit strange considering the way previous incarnations of
Alred have sounded.
>7. I could have done without bale shouting as batman. He just sounded
>weird when he was trying to be gruff and yell at the same time. I
>think he could have been just as imposing by speaking at a normal tone.
>
>
I liked this, actually. He differentiated his normal voice from
Batman's, which strikes me as one of the most basic things a superhero
trying to disguise himself would do.
>9. The fight scenes were kind of hard to see. I understand that with a
>batman movie it's supposed to be dark, but how can we appreciate what
>kind of martial arts master he is when you can't even see his movies?
>
>
Yes, I wish some of the fighting had been less blurry. Especially the
final showdown in the monorail.
--
The majestic equality of the law forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread.
Anatole France
Comic book klatch: http://ibntumart.blogspot.com
Lynley James
Where's teh love for Batroc the Leaper?! The greatest of all French
comicbook characters.
Lynley (who fervently hopes that Batroc isn't French Canadian ;O)
Lynley James
I also remember that it is pronounced the way you remember it, however
it wasn't a big deal for me, just a different pronounciation of a
foreign, unusual name.
>3. I felt that not only having joe chill be captured, but having him be
>KILLED defeats a lot of what batman is. To some extent, every criminal
>batman is chasing down is a joe chill who hasn't been caught, just like
>the one who killed bruce's parents. Now i know in the comics there
>have been stories where joe chill was caught, but for a very long time
>he wasn't, and i felt that's what made batman the character he is.
>Anyone else have an issue with this?
>
>4. I know this was previously brought up, but seriously, he's the "dark
>night detective", where were his sleuthing skills??? When the fake
>ra's started speaking in the foreign language, i half expected bruce to
>come back speaking the language.
>
I also felt that they could have played this up more. I like Batman
as a detective, but it may have been too much to add to an already
packed film. he writer and director may have felt that general
audiences expect more of an action/thriller rather than a detective
story and went with that aspect of the character.
>I know there have been debates about bruce going from "good detective"
>to "super genius who knows everything" for no apparent reason, but
>still would have been a nice touch.
>
>And i ALSO thought bruce was going to be able to make the antidote
>himself. I mean he knows chemistry in the comics and on BTAS. Maybe
>they wanted to add some realism and not make him know everything, but
>that's part of the character.
>
>And then again, he did ZERO detective work. He didn't even have to
>find out who was behind the scarecrow's plot. Ra's came to him.
>
>Needless to say, i was disappointed with that aspect.
>
Tim Burton touched on Batman's detection skills in the first film,
Batman discovers that the Joker's chemicals produce the death grin
when used in a combination of makeup, but then it almost seemed an
afterthought. It should either be a major part of the film or not
done in such a careless manner.
>5. He really wasn't batman very much in the movie. I think there were
>about three major scenes where he was in costume for more than 5
>minutes. Maybe that's normal for superhero movies, but it sure seemed
>like we saw a lot more of spider-man in his first movie.
>
The one scene where this is true, for me, is at the end when he tells
Ducard/Ras that he's not going to kill him, but he's not going to save
him either. To me there is no difference between him acting or
failing to act in that situation. Either way he is responsible for
Ducard's death. It would've been far more like the character I know
if Batman tried to save him, but couldn't.
That was the one jarring moment for me. The other was on the plane
when he just tells Alfred his plans to become Batman so calmly and
matter of factly and Alfred just accepts it and jokes about it. That
just didn't make any sense to me. Noone would react like Alfred did
if their ward/friend just told them that they were going to run around
in tights and fight crime.
>6. I imagined michael cain having a much more high class british
>accent. He sounded a bit cockney and lower class. I guess you would
>assume someone who's a butler wouldn't really have come from the best
>lineage. Maybe i've been spoiled by BTAS where alfred sounds so
>proper.
>
I really like Michael Caine, he is one of the best actors around, but
I do not think that he was suited to this role. His accent is one of
the reasons why, but he also had such a small role. I would've liked
to see the actor from the '90's films playing Alfred again.
>7. I could have done without bale shouting as batman. He just sounded
>weird when he was trying to be gruff and yell at the same time. I
>think he could have been just as imposing by speaking at a normal tone.
>
>8. I don't know about you guys, but the first time we actually saw that
>first shot of batman in the mask...it just looked kind of absurd to me.
> I mean i think if i was a crook and saw him for the first time i'd
>start laughing.
>
>9. The fight scenes were kind of hard to see. I understand that with a
>batman movie it's supposed to be dark, but how can we appreciate what
>kind of martial arts master he is when you can't even see his movies?
>
I hate this style of filming fight scenes. Even the first one that
was well lit was difficult to follow. I know that the reasoning is to
give one a sense that you are in the fight and to show the pace and
ferocity of a fight, but it just ends up being a confused jumbled mess
on screen. They used this technique in the otherwise entertaining
Bourne Supremacy and that ruined whole tracts of both films for me.
I'd much rather have them film it from a suitable distance to give the
audience a chance to appreciate the skills of the fighters.
Oh yeah, and this technique is exacerbated by the use of almost no
lights just like the Birds of Prey show.
>10. Was Lucard (or whatever name it was Liam Neeson first used) a
>character in the comics?
>
>Any responses welcome...and again, i did like the movie, i guess i just
>expected something different.
On a final note one thing I did like was the nod to Burton's Batman
with Falcone asking Batman who are you and Batman replying, "I'm
Batman"
Lynley
Mike Ward
@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>
> 2. Isn't his name pronounced "raysh"? Not sure where i heard this,
> maybe on batman: the animated series? When i first read the name i
> thought it was "roz", but then having heard it pronounced "raysh" at
> some point, i always figured that's what it was. I was surprised to
> hear it as "roz" in this movie.
>
It's Arabic so once I saked an Arab apeaker how to pronounce it and he
pronounced in like Ross. But then there are dialects of Arabic so it's
probably pronounced in a varity of ways.
Brian Doyle
"Lynley James" <lynley...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:008tb1l198bk4c06c...@4ax.com...
Nah, Warp is the coolest, he even visited an alternate dimension which
featured a post apocalyptic Tintin! :)
Bort
Ibn Tumart wrote:
> Bort wrote:
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> It's an Arabic word and should be pronounced "ra (glottal stop) ees."
> Pronouncing it "raysh" is as incorrect as "roz," really, so I didn't care.
Ah, i hadn't realized that, thanks.
> Michael Caine spoke with his normal accent as far as I could tell. Did
> you mean you wish Alfred spoke with a more posh English accent? If so,
> well, again this isn't something that bugged me, but I can see how it
> could be a bit strange considering the way previous incarnations of
> Alred have sounded.
Yeah, i meant i wish he had sounded more "posh". And i thought i had
seen movies where Cain talks with a much more posh accent, so i guess
that's why i was surprised there.
>
> >7. I could have done without bale shouting as batman. He just sounded
> >weird when he was trying to be gruff and yell at the same time. I
> >think he could have been just as imposing by speaking at a normal tone.
> >
> >
> I liked this, actually. He differentiated his normal voice from
> Batman's, which strikes me as one of the most basic things a superhero
> trying to disguise himself would do.
Don't get me wrong, i liked that he sounded different as batman than as
bruce wayne, but the scenes where he was shouting as batman (e.g.
getting information from the cop he hung upsidedown), i just felt he
didn't need to shout. It sounded kind of weird and grating.
Bort
Lynley James wrote:
> On 25 Jun 2005 22:32:18 -0700, "Bort" <bro...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >SPOILER SPACE
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >
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> >
> The one scene where this is true, for me, is at the end when he tells
> Ducard/Ras that he's not going to kill him, but he's not going to save
> him either. To me there is no difference between him acting or
> failing to act in that situation. Either way he is responsible for
> Ducard's death. It would've been far more like the character I know
> if Batman tried to save him, but couldn't.
>
> That was the one jarring moment for me. The other was on the plane
> when he just tells Alfred his plans to become Batman so calmly and
> matter of factly and Alfred just accepts it and jokes about it. That
> just didn't make any sense to me. Noone would react like Alfred did
> if their ward/friend just told them that they were going to run around
> in tights and fight crime.
I agree completely. Batman is usually shown as considering life
sacred. He usually always tries to save the villain's life, so having
batman just leave ra's to die was pretty shocking to me.
> On a final note one thing I did like was the nod to Burton's Batman
> with Falcone asking Batman who are you and Batman replying, "I'm
> Batman"
Yup, i noticed that too. It was a nice touch.
Hawkeye
"Bort" <bro...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1119763938.8...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> SPOILER SPACE
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I read through a lot of Batman Begins posts on here, and i didn't see
> a
> lot of these issues brought up. If they have been, i apologize in
> advance, and you guys can just skim over the stuff that's been said
> before.
>
> Also, before i begin, i wanted to say that i did like the movie, it
> just wasn't what i was expecting.
>
> Issues/questions:
>
> 1. So batman learned everything from ra's? I mean i know obviously he
> showed he knew how to fight in that camp, but still, all the shadow,
> theatrics, stealth, certain weapons. It looks like almost everything
> he learned came from ra's. I prefer the comic version where he
> traveled all over the world to pick up his skills. I realize it's not
> feasible to show that in a movie in detail, but still, i would have
> liked to have seen other influences.
Just like any other "established" characters with a history changes were
made which some will mind and some wont. For me while I was entertained
this isnt a defintive version of Batman.
> 2. Isn't his name pronounced "raysh"? Not sure where i heard this,
> maybe on batman: the animated series? When i first read the name i
> thought it was "roz", but then having heard it pronounced "raysh" at
> some point, i always figured that's what it was. I was surprised to
> hear it as "roz" in this movie.
I thought I heard 'rosh'.
> 3. I felt that not only having joe chill be captured, but having him
> be
> KILLED defeats a lot of what batman is. To some extent, every
> criminal
> batman is chasing down is a joe chill who hasn't been caught, just
> like
> the one who killed bruce's parents. Now i know in the comics there
> have been stories where joe chill was caught, but for a very long time
> he wasn't, and i felt that's what made batman the character he is.
> Anyone else have an issue with this?
I agree. After I saw Gordon tell Bruce they got him I just couldnt see
the motivation which we all know Bruce has and the justice he seeks.
> 4. I know this was previously brought up, but seriously, he's the
> "dark
> night detective", where were his sleuthing skills??? When the fake
> ra's started speaking in the foreign language, i half expected bruce
> to
> come back speaking the language.
This movie is more about action than anything else. I sensed that they
didnt care to go into his reasons and his mind and skills other than his
parents are killed. The sequence with ra's is just an excuse for a big
fight sequence and explaining how he got his fighting skills. Also to
set up the whole I saved your life plot and betrayel.
> I know there have been debates about bruce going from "good detective"
> to "super genius who knows everything" for no apparent reason, but
> still would have been a nice touch.
>
> And i ALSO thought bruce was going to be able to make the antidote
> himself. I mean he knows chemistry in the comics and on BTAS. Maybe
> they wanted to add some realism and not make him know everything, but
> that's part of the character.
> And then again, he did ZERO detective work. He didn't even have to
> find out who was behind the scarecrow's plot. Ra's came to him.
>
> Needless to say, i was disappointed with that aspect.
>
> 5. He really wasn't batman very much in the movie. I think there were
> about three major scenes where he was in costume for more than 5
> minutes. Maybe that's normal for superhero movies, but it sure seemed
> like we saw a lot more of spider-man in his first movie.
>
> 6. I imagined michael cain having a much more high class british
> accent. He sounded a bit cockney and lower class. I guess you would
> assume someone who's a butler wouldn't really have come from the best
> lineage. Maybe i've been spoiled by BTAS where alfred sounds so
> proper.
I too have been spoiled by Batman: The Animated Series. They got it
right more than anyone because you had time to flesh out stories and the
creators actually care about the characters and are fans themselves.
Someone asks me whats the best batman I tell them the TAS. For me thats
good enough and I cannot see anyone else reaching the level of
excellence they did. Its the only Batman worthy of owning and repeated
viewings. Well that and the 60s show which I enjoy for others reasons.
> 7. I could have done without bale shouting as batman. He just sounded
> weird when he was trying to be gruff and yell at the same time. I
> think he could have been just as imposing by speaking at a normal
> tone.
I just couldnt find his voice as Batman to be believable.
> 8. I don't know about you guys, but the first time we actually saw
> that
> first shot of batman in the mask...it just looked kind of absurd to
> me.
> I mean i think if i was a crook and saw him for the first time i'd
> start laughing.
> 9. The fight scenes were kind of hard to see. I understand that with
> a
> batman movie it's supposed to be dark, but how can we appreciate what
> kind of martial arts master he is when you can't even see his movies?
I would like to see fight scenes from a distance and not the in your
face stuff thats been happening. Like Rocky. Close ups are fine but not
all the time. And yes light up things so we can see whats actually going
on.
>
> Any responses welcome...and again, i did like the movie, i guess i
> just
> expected something different.
Its an action movie with a comic book hero as the setting. Some fans
want the detective, some want the psychology, some just want him beating
up crooks, and some just want him facing off against his rogues gallery.
If I want "Batman" I goto TAS. Otherwise anything else just isnt it.
On another note the "batmobile" despite early ughs actually came off
well.
Ibn Tumart
Ibn Tumart wrote:Bort wrote:SPOILER SPACE . . . . . .It's an Arabic word and should be pronounced "ra (glottal stop) ees." Pronouncing it "raysh" is as incorrect as "roz," really, so I didn't care.Ah, i hadn't realized that, thanks.
Yeah, i meant i wish he had sounded more "posh". And i thought i had
seen movies where Cain talks with a much more posh accent, so i guess that's why i was surprised there.
Don't get me wrong, i liked that he sounded different as batman than as
bruce wayne, but the scenes where he was shouting as batman (e.g. getting information from the cop he hung upsidedown), i just felt he didn't need to shout. It sounded kind of weird and grating.
Bort
Ibn Tumart wrote:
> Bort wrote:
>
> >Ibn Tumart wrote:
> Oh, he definitely can. I guess he felt his character would make more
> sense here as someone who was obviously not among the British upper
> class, but then maybe Nolan just told him he didn't need to change his
> accent. Either way, it is a bit surprising. On another note, his
> Alfred was a lot more fun and engaging than previous portrayals of the
> character, I have to say. The other ones seemed like so much background
> to me, but this Alred was someone I genuinely liked and wanted to see on
> screen.
>
Yeah i agree, he was definitely more interesting/charming/useful than
his predecesors in the role.
Bort
Hawkeye wrote:
> I just couldnt find his voice as Batman to be believable.
Yup, agreed. Too bad they couldn't get Kevin Conroy to do a voiceover,
eh?
> On another note the "batmobile" despite early ughs actually came off
> well.
I also agree with this. When i saw the initial pictures, i was
repulsed. But it actually fit in the movie and looked somewhat cool.
I still like the look of the burton or animated series' batmobiles
better though.
lclough
The real change was that Alfred was there when Bruce was a boy.
Naturally he has deeper roots now, than when he was a
relatively recent hire.
Brenda
--
---------
Brenda W. Clough
http://www.sff.net/people/Brenda/
Recent short fiction: PARADOX, Autumn 2003
http://home.nyc.rr.com/paradoxmag//index.html
Upcoming short fiction in FIRST HEROES (TOR, May '04)
http://members.aol.com/wenamun/firstheroes.html
Ken_from_Chicago
-- Ken from Chicago
lclough
> Iclough, wasn't Alfred always there for young Bruce?
>
> -- Ken from Chicago
>
Not at all. Somewhere I have the issue when Alfred arrives at
Wayne Manor, to be greeted by the adult Bruce. It was in the
'50's, and at that time Alfred wore a tail coat and was tubby
and short. He only became tall and thin and sometimes
mustached, in the '60's during the TV show.
Kurt Busiek
> Ken_from_Chicago wrote:
>> Iclough, wasn't Alfred always there for young Bruce?
>
> Not at all. Somewhere I have the issue when Alfred arrives at Wayne
> Manor, to be greeted by the adult Bruce. It was in the '50's, and at
> that time Alfred wore a tail coat and was tubby and short. He only
> became tall and thin and sometimes mustached, in the '60's during the
> TV show.
Yeah -- when he was first given an origin, it was Alfred's father than
had been butler to the Waynes, and his father before him and so on, and
Alfred -- onetime actor and amateur sleuth -- was following his
father's deathbed wish that he buttle for the Waynes, too.
So he simply showed up and started buttling, and Bruce and Dick had to
resort to wacky antics to preserve their secret IDs, until Alfred
deduced them and began helping out.
kdb
Ken_from_Chicago
Bruce post-Crisis?
-- Ken from Chicago (who "loves" time-travel grammar)
Hawkeye
>
>
> Hawkeye wrote:
>> I just couldnt find his voice as Batman to be believable.
>
> Yup, agreed. Too bad they couldn't get Kevin Conroy to do a
> voiceover,
> eh?
Kevin Conroys voice wouldnt match the actor or the vision created by the
movie. Plus the potential to take away from the effectiveness that his
voice brings to TAS. Kinda like how Young Frankenstein pops in my head
no matter how hard I try to not think about it when watching the old
Universal movies.
>> On another note the "batmobile" despite early ughs actually came off
>> well.
>
> I also agree with this. When i saw the initial pictures, i was
> repulsed. But it actually fit in the movie and looked somewhat cool.
>
> I still like the look of the burton or animated series' batmobiles
> better though.
TAS could pass as more of a tank that could take getting hit but couldnt
maneuver like Batman Begins. Although the movie did have armour it
looked like the tires could easily be blown. The thing that threw people
off 'atleast me' was it didnt look like a "Batmobile".
Overall hopefully this movie ages better than the Burton effort. And
frankly I am looking foward to seeing what they do with the sequel.
Kurt Busiek
> Kurt, allow me to rephrase, hasn't Alfred always been there for young
> Bruce post-Crisis?
Beats the crap outta me.
Post-Crisis Batman continuity seems to be whatever the writer of the
moment wants it to be -- there've been something like three or four
different accounts of how Lucius Fox came to work for Bruce Wayne, for
instance.
But that origin I mentioned for Alfred was true of both the Earth-1 and
Earth-2 Alfreds (it as repeated as late as THE UNTOLD LEGEND OF THE
BATMAN #2, in 1980). Post-Crisis, I don't know if they've given Alfred
an origin story.
kdb
Brian Doyle
"Kurt Busiek" <kurtb...@aol.comics> wrote in message
news:2005062619540575249%kurtbusiek@aolcomics...
The Earth 2 Alfred actually found out their ID's in his first appearance in
Batman 16, and in a nice touch, didn't tell them he knew, but the next night
drew their attention to the Batsignal when it appeared and had their
costumes ready for them. (He found the secret passageway to the Batcave
whilst dusting).
On Earth-1 I think it was confirmed in "Untold Legend of the Batman" that it
Robin who made the reveal to Alfred during a case when Batman was badly
injured, shortly after Alfred arrived, and Robin needed help treating him.
Since Crisis and Year One, lord knows....
ATKo...@aol.com
> > KILLED defeats a lot of what batman is. To some extent, every criminal
> > batman is chasing down is a joe chill who hasn't been caught, just like
> > the one who killed bruce's parents. Now i know in the comics there
> > have been stories where joe chill was caught, but for a very long time
> > he wasn't, and i felt that's what made batman the character he is.
> > Anyone else have an issue with this?
>
> I agree. After I saw Gordon tell Bruce they got him I just couldnt see
> the motivation which we all know Bruce has and the justice he seeks.
I realize that the question of whether or not Batman's parents' killer
"should" be known, be caught, etc. is one that engenders lots of
passionate discussion, but I gotta admit, I genuinely like how the
movie handled it.
To me, the identity and capture of Batman's parents' murderer *can't*
be the be-all and end-all of Batman's motivation. If he's driven to do
what he does because he doesn't know/hasn't caught his parents' killer,
then why would he be so driven to fight criminals who obviously didn't
have anything to do with his parents murder?
No, to me, Batman *has* to be motivated in large part by a desire not
to avenge his own personal tragedy, but by a desire to prevent others
from having the same sort of tragedy--to prevent criminals from making
innocents suffer at Bruce Wayne has suffered.
Getting to that larger motivation goes beyond the individual case of
his parents' murder. So it doesn't bug me to think that Joe Chill was
or wasn't caught. That's just a detail of the story--and one that I
don't think is as important as others do. YMMV.
Anyway, because of all that, I genuinely like the way the movie worked,
suggesting how Bruce Wayne's intial desire for revenge against Joe
Chill eventually became transformed into a larger motivation where
instead of just wanting simple revenge for his parents' murder, he
wanted to uphold and defend his parents' ideals in a world very opposed
to them. Makes for a more interesting Batman. IMO, of course.
ATK
lclough
Ah yes! I remember the wacky antics! And the final revelation,
in which Alfred allows that he had discovered the secret the
first day, and adds, "Allow me to help you with your batcape, sir."
lclough
>
> Anyway, because of all that, I genuinely like the way the movie worked,
> suggesting how Bruce Wayne's intial desire for revenge against Joe
> Chill eventually became transformed into a larger motivation where
> instead of just wanting simple revenge for his parents' murder, he
> wanted to uphold and defend his parents' ideals in a world very opposed
> to them.
And the basics still hold up. Joe Chill did not pay the price
for his crimes and, now that he's dead, he never will. So
Batman can proceed with the eternal angst and pursuit of criminals.
lclough
They started a new one in Detective this year. In which Alfred
was a Mil5 operative, very QUEEN AND COUNTRY, until things got
too hot, and he resorted to the old family trade and turns up on
Thomas Wayne's doorstep.
Lynley James
>Kurt Busiek wrote:
>
>> On 2005-06-26 20:29:17 -0700, "Ken_from_Chicago" <kwic...@aol.com> said:
>>
>>> Kurt, allow me to rephrase, hasn't Alfred always been there for young
>>> Bruce post-Crisis?
>>
>>
>> Beats the crap outta me.
>>
>> Post-Crisis Batman continuity seems to be whatever the writer of the
>> moment wants it to be -- there've been something like three or four
>> different accounts of how Lucius Fox came to work for Bruce Wayne, for
>> instance.
>>
>> But that origin I mentioned for Alfred was true of both the Earth-1 and
>> Earth-2 Alfreds (it as repeated as late as THE UNTOLD LEGEND OF THE
>> BATMAN #2, in 1980). Post-Crisis, I don't know if they've given Alfred
>> an origin story.
>>
>> kdb
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>They started a new one in Detective this year. In which Alfred
>was a Mil5 operative, very QUEEN AND COUNTRY, until things got
>too hot, and he resorted to the old family trade and turns up on
>Thomas Wayne's doorstep.
>
>Brenda
Isn't this something first introduced in Batman:TAS or one of the TAS
films?
Lynley
mwo...@umich.edu
Actually, you're right on both counts. He's just French, not Canadian.
And he is the greatest French character of all time.
Which says all you need to know about French characters.... ;)
Chris C.
mwo...@umich.edu
> SPOILER SPACE
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
>
> showed he knew how to fight in that camp, but still, all the shadow,
> theatrics, stealth, certain weapons. It looks like almost everything
> he learned came from ra's. I prefer the comic version where he
> traveled all over the world to pick up his skills. I realize it's not
> feasible to show that in a movie in detail, but still, i would have
> liked to have seen other influences.
I prefer it too, but I understand the need to condense in a movie. I
think it's there that he has other skills from his ability in the camp
(being able to fight 6 at once isn't something you pick up on the
street), but more would have been nice. Of course, he doesn't seem as
knowledgable as other Batmen. Like not knowing the chemistry stuff and
needing it explained to him by Fox.
> 2. Isn't his name pronounced "raysh"? Not sure where i heard this,
> maybe on batman: the animated series? When i first read the name i
> thought it was "roz", but then having heard it pronounced "raysh" at
> some point, i always figured that's what it was. I was surprised to
> hear it as "roz" in this movie.
It was that way in the cartoon, as has been said, which was what always
seemed strange to me. I was glad to hear it back to the way I had
always pronounced it (after being right as a kid with "Magneto" and
"Sub-Marnier").
> 3. I felt that not only having joe chill be captured, but having him be
> KILLED defeats a lot of what batman is. To some extent, every criminal
> batman is chasing down is a joe chill who hasn't been caught, just like
> the one who killed bruce's parents. Now i know in the comics there
> have been stories where joe chill was caught, but for a very long time
> he wasn't, and i felt that's what made batman the character he is.
> Anyone else have an issue with this?
Not this in particular. He didn't get the personal closure he wanted.
But Joe Chill has been found and killed in the comics before, so, not
that big a deal to me.
> 4. I know this was previously brought up, but seriously, he's the "dark
> night detective", where were his sleuthing skills??? When the fake
> ra's started speaking in the foreign language, i half expected bruce to
> come back speaking the language.\
Apparently detecting is only interesting if it's on tv, or if it's
Sherlock Holmes. And with all the recent Holmes movies, apparently we
shouldn't hold our breath. But you're right.
> And i ALSO thought bruce was going to be able to make the antidote
> himself. I mean he knows chemistry in the comics and on BTAS. Maybe
> they wanted to add some realism and not make him know everything, but
> that's part of the character.
I've heard the realism reason before. But part of Batman isn't that he
can just punch really well, but that he's a genius too. Sure, he
hasn't dedicated himself to Quantum physics like Reed Richards or
something - but if it would be pertinent to his field, he should have
some knowledge about it. It felt odd that he need stuff explained to
him by Lucius. Know how to make the antidote himself at this stage of
his career? Maybe not. Need it explained to him in plain english?
naaaaaa. But then, Fox's many area's of expertise were just as silly
as it would have been for Bruce to be an expert in it all.
> 5. He really wasn't batman very much in the movie. I think there were
> about three major scenes where he was in costume for more than 5
> minutes. Maybe that's normal for superhero movies, but it sure seemed
> like we saw a lot more of spider-man in his first movie.
Acutally, I didn't have a problem with this. I have a bigger problem
with the original Batman movies, and the Spiderman movies, where they
feel the need to take off the mask at the end to see the star's face.
Much like I hate the fact that he HAS to tell the love interest he's
Batman in any movie. (and the fact that since just about every bad-guy
gets to find out his identity, it really doesn't mean much that Ra's
knows).
> 6. I imagined michael cain having a much more high class british
> accent. He sounded a bit cockney and lower class. I guess you would
> assume someone who's a butler wouldn't really have come from the best
> lineage. Maybe i've been spoiled by BTAS where alfred sounds so
> proper.
Yeah, I liked Gough, and Cain really ISN'T Alfred...but he was so good,
I didn't care. He and Freeman steal the movie.
> 7. I could have done without bale shouting as batman. He just sounded
> weird when he was trying to be gruff and yell at the same time. I
> think he could have been just as imposing by speaking at a normal tone.
Huh. I liked it. This was the first time in the movies I could see
Batman being SCARY. The interrogations made me believe that the bad
guys would talk, for a change. Rather than Keaton trying to be all
scary.
> 8. I don't know about you guys, but the first time we actually saw that
> first shot of batman in the mask...it just looked kind of absurd to me.
> I mean i think if i was a crook and saw him for the first time i'd
> start laughing.
It wasn't a major factor...but there was something about the structure
of the costume that was just a little off. That, and the fact that
they missed the opportunity to upgrade the costume in this era of
Spiderman costumes. It really wasn't any improvement over the old
one...and certainly didn't make it more comic like. The chest bat was
kinda...YAWN.
> 9. The fight scenes were kind of hard to see. I understand that with a
> batman movie it's supposed to be dark, but how can we appreciate what
> kind of martial arts master he is when you can't even see his movies?
My BIGGEST complaint with the movie. What keeps it from being great.
Nolan's a good director, but he's can direct an action scene to save
his life. Of course, it seems most American directors struggle with it
unless their actors are computer generated. Shot way too close to get
the feel of the action. So, basically the only action piece you're
left with is the car chase, which wasn't all that remarkable, and you
could see just about all of in the trailers, and on MTV, etc, etc. If
it wants to be a contender, it really needs to improve this in the next
one, because all you have to do is compare the train fight in this one
to the train fight in Spidey 2 and...nuff said.
Having said all that, I thought it was a good superhero movie. Maybe
approaching the first X-Men and Spiderman - which gives high hopes for
a sequel. Definately the best Batman movie.
Other things I liked:
Thought the cast was great, with some pretty one note characters.
Ironically for a Batman movie, Batman was the most rounded interesting
character, and the rest were kind of cardboard cutouts. Bale was very
good as Batman. Although no Conroy (I love that he's the only one who
gets Batman is Bruce's regular voice, and he uses a lighter, more
carefree voice to be Bruce - not a gruff voice to "play Batman". This
Batman I could care for some, and feel for.
Besides Batman, Alfred, and Fox, the Scarecrow was a delicious
performance. And I liked the role Gordon played, and wouldn't mind
seeing more of him.
The tone of the movie was pretty right. And there were some fun
touches. I still like seeing Zsasz. While not necessarily screaming
to be in a movie, I still think the best modern run of villians came
from the Grant/Breyfogle run.
Middle things - as I said, the costume could have been better. But it
at least seems a little more flexible. I didn't hate the Batmobile.
An improvement? I don't think so....but it looked worse than it
played. A lot seemed to come straight from Batman Year One, which I
liked, but all the talk that the stuff in this movie had never been
shown before - "how Batman became Batman" - was not only inaccurate,
but disingenuious when you lift so much from that work almost directly.
The big twist at the end, while no surprise, because I read the script
about a year ago, and they didn't change much, was a nice touch....but
it all leaves me thinking that they wasted a lot of what makes Ra's
cool and unique in the comics...and just made him a sleight of hand
terrorist. No reanimation, or long life, no Talia....
There were a couple other bad things - Katie Holmes was not only an
unecessary character (Harvey Dent would have been just as useful), but
she was horribly miscast. Every scene with her could have been cut
without drastically altering the movie. And the fact that she takes
down Scarecrow...ugh...
The train ending wasn't anything special to end a movie on. And did I
mention how awful the fight scenes were...?
A good start in the right direction - but as some claimed prior to
release of looking like the best superhero movie ever - well, it still
has a lot to improve on. He's to Batman 2 ( or is that 6?) being as
much of an improvement as X-Men 2 and Spiderman 2 were over their
originals.
Chris C.
mwo...@umich.edu
> On 25 Jun 2005 22:32:18 -0700, "Bort" <bro...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >SPOILER SPACE
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >
> >
> >
>
> I hate this style of filming fight scenes. Even the first one that
> was well lit was difficult to follow. I know that the reasoning is to
> give one a sense that you are in the fight and to show the pace and
> ferocity of a fight, but it just ends up being a confused jumbled mess
> on screen. They used this technique in the otherwise entertaining
> Bourne Supremacy and that ruined whole tracts of both films for me.
There's a GREAT example. A really good movie ruined by the fact that
every action scene made me want to vomit from the camera jerking around
all over the place. It probably made the stunt coordinator want to
vomit too, after planning all these great, intricate fight and chase
scenes, that look great - and then you can't seem them because the
director want to be an auteur.
> I'd much rather have them film it from a suitable distance to give the
> audience a chance to appreciate the skills of the fighters.
>
That's the key. Let us SEE the fight. Not the actor's face. It's like
every American director that tells Jackie Chan they need to shoot him
up close, and make the fight scenes short and sweet, because that's
what American audiences like. NOT.
Chris C.
mwo...@umich.edu
> On 25 Jun 2005 22:32:18 -0700, "Bort" <bro...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >SPOILER SPACE
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >
> >
> >
>
> I hate this style of filming fight scenes. Even the first one that
> was well lit was difficult to follow. I know that the reasoning is to
> give one a sense that you are in the fight and to show the pace and
> ferocity of a fight, but it just ends up being a confused jumbled mess
> on screen. They used this technique in the otherwise entertaining
> Bourne Supremacy and that ruined whole tracts of both films for me.
There's a GREAT example. A really good movie ruined by the fact that
every action scene made me want to vomit from the camera jerking around
all over the place. It probably made the stunt coordinator want to
vomit too, after planning all these great, intricate fight and chase
scenes, that look great - and then you can't seem them because the
director want to be an auteur.
> I'd much rather have them film it from a suitable distance to give the
> audience a chance to appreciate the skills of the fighters.
>
Henry Chen
mwo...@umich.edu wrote:
> Lynley James wrote:
> > On 25 Jun 2005 22:32:18 -0700, "Bort" <bro...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >SPOILER SPACE
> > >.
> > >.
> > >.
> > >.
> > >.
> > >.
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
> >
> > I hate this style of filming fight scenes. Even the first one that
> > was well lit was difficult to follow. I know that the reasoning is to
> > give one a sense that you are in the fight and to show the pace and
> > ferocity of a fight, but it just ends up being a confused jumbled mess
> > on screen. They used this technique in the otherwise entertaining
> > Bourne Supremacy and that ruined whole tracts of both films for me.
>
>
> There's a GREAT example. A really good movie ruined by the fact that
> every action scene made me want to vomit from the camera jerking around
> all over the place. It probably made the stunt coordinator want to
> vomit too, after planning all these great, intricate fight and chase
> scenes, that look great - and then you can't seem them because the
> director want to be an auteur.
>
I seem to be one of the few who really dug how Nolan decided to do the
fights. I've seen Batman fight already, in various mediums, and it was
nice to see it from the victim's POV. Plus Batman is not going to have a
Jackie Chan/Jet Li wuxia style fight. He's going to punch you so hard
that you would vomit if you weren't unconscious and he's going to to do
it right away. Here I really believed they couldn't get a bead on him
and had no idea what the hell was going on. And you do seem him in
costume quite a bit later on, so it's not like they hide him the whole
time.
Henry Chen
"Bort" <bro...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Ibn Tumart wrote:
> > Bort wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >SPOILER SPACE
> > >.
> > >.
> > >.
> > >.
> > >.
> > >.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > It's an Arabic word and should be pronounced "ra (glottal stop) ees."
> > Pronouncing it "raysh" is as incorrect as "roz," really, so I didn't care.
>
> Ah, i hadn't realized that, thanks.
>
> > Michael Caine spoke with his normal accent as far as I could tell. Did
> > you mean you wish Alfred spoke with a more posh English accent? If so,
> > well, again this isn't something that bugged me, but I can see how it
> > could be a bit strange considering the way previous incarnations of
> > Alred have sounded.
>
> Yeah, i meant i wish he had sounded more "posh". And i thought i had
> seen movies where Cain talks with a much more posh accent, so i guess
> that's why i was surprised there.
>
Interesting to note for me was that Caine came up with, on his own, a
backstory for Alfred that's fighteningly similar to the comic Alfred's.
Caine apparently decided that Alfred used to be British SASè‹”nd modeled
his voice on his own old sergeant'sè‹‘efore the Waynes found him. And in
the comics, Alfred was MI5 or something similar. Maybe all stern,
sarcastic British butlers have special operations training.
arnold kim
<mwo...@umich.edu> wrote in message
news:1119902475.3...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> Lynley James wrote:
>> On 25 Jun 2005 22:32:18 -0700, "Bort" <bro...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >SPOILER SPACE
>> >.
>> >.
>> >.
>> >.
>> >.
>> >.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>
>>
>> I hate this style of filming fight scenes. Even the first one that
>> was well lit was difficult to follow. I know that the reasoning is to
>> give one a sense that you are in the fight and to show the pace and
>> ferocity of a fight, but it just ends up being a confused jumbled mess
>> on screen. They used this technique in the otherwise entertaining
>> Bourne Supremacy and that ruined whole tracts of both films for me.
>
>
> There's a GREAT example. A really good movie ruined by the fact that
> every action scene made me want to vomit from the camera jerking around
> all over the place. It probably made the stunt coordinator want to
> vomit too, after planning all these great, intricate fight and chase
> scenes, that look great - and then you can't seem them because the
> director want to be an auteur.
Wait, you think a stunt coordinator would come up with a fight scene
completely independent of the director, who in turn would then just throw
the choreographer's down the drain? That strikes me as odd and kind of
backward. The director always has input, even when it comes to fight
scenes- and remember, film is a director's medium. More likely than not,
the fight scene was choreographed with the director's idea in mind.
>> I'd much rather have them film it from a suitable distance to give the
>> audience a chance to appreciate the skills of the fighters.
>>
>
>
> That's the key. Let us SEE the fight. Not the actor's face. It's like
> every American director that tells Jackie Chan they need to shoot him
> up close, and make the fight scenes short and sweet, because that's
> what American audiences like. NOT.
The difference here is that showing some kind of elaborate fight scene
wouldn't really fit with the style of the movie, which is kind of dark and
mysterious in nature. In this film the fights are actually choreographed a
bit more realistically, and had they been filmed less obliquely, they
wouldn't be terribly interesting compared to other Hollywood films.
Arnold Kim
Brian Doyle
"Lynley James" <lynley...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:qld0c1hhg4h682kbh...@4ax.com...
The Secret Service work was new for TAS, prior to that in the pre-Crisis,
Earth 1 stories he had been an agent during WWII, and had even had a
daughter by Madamoiselle Marie.
Hawkeye
"lclough" <clo...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:A8Wve.1056$zp6.972@trnddc08...
> ATKo...@aol.com wrote:
>
>>
>> Anyway, because of all that, I genuinely like the way the movie
>> worked,
>> suggesting how Bruce Wayne's intial desire for revenge against Joe
>> Chill eventually became transformed into a larger motivation where
>> instead of just wanting simple revenge for his parents' murder, he
>> wanted to uphold and defend his parents' ideals in a world very
>> opposed
>> to them.
>
>
> And the basics still hold up. Joe Chill did not pay the price for his
> crimes and, now that he's dead, he never will. So Batman can proceed
> with the eternal angst and pursuit of criminals.
>
> Brenda
>
>
I see your points and I dont think I meant it as the one thing but a
factor. Maybe I did? I actually agree with you now and can see it still
as a factor.
ron saarna
"Kurt Busiek" <kurtb...@aol.comics> wrote in message
> On 2005-06-26 20:29:17 -0700, "Ken_from_Chicago" <kwic...@aol.com> said:
>
> > Kurt, allow me to rephrase, hasn't Alfred always been there for young
> > Bruce post-Crisis?
>
> Beats the crap outta me.
>
> Post-Crisis Batman continuity seems to be whatever the writer of the
> moment wants it to be -- there've been something like three or four
> different accounts of how Lucius Fox came to work for Bruce Wayne, for
> instance.
Immediately post-Crisis, I think he was. I think Miller had him fall into
the cave as a child, swarmed by bats, and then Alfred carried him back home
in Year One. That's about as post-Crisis as you can get, at least for the
first go-round until Zero-Hour and Hypertime. But you are right about the
"flavour of the month" version: Who the heck knows? Everything in the past
20 years has been post-Crisis anyway.
Kurt Busiek
>
> "Kurt Busiek" <kurtb...@aol.comics> wrote in message
> news:2005062620523843658%kurtbusiek@aolcomics...
>> On 2005-06-26 20:29:17 -0700, "Ken_from_Chicago" <kwic...@aol.com> said:
>>
>>> Kurt, allow me to rephrase, hasn't Alfred always been there for young
>>> Bruce post-Crisis?
>>
>> Beats the crap outta me.
>>
>> Post-Crisis Batman continuity seems to be whatever the writer of the
>> moment wants it to be -- there've been something like three or four
>> different accounts of how Lucius Fox came to work for Bruce Wayne, for
>> instance.
>
> Immediately post-Crisis, I think he was. I think Miller had him fall into
> the cave as a child, swarmed by bats, and then Alfred carried him back home
> in Year One. That's about as post-Crisis as you can get, at least for the
> first go-round until Zero-Hour and Hypertime.
There's a scene like that in DARK KNIGHT RETURNS, but not in YEAR ONE.
And Bruce is with his father when it happens, not Alfred.
Which isn't saying that it wasn't done with Alfred somewhere else, of course...
kdb
Kevrob
> "Bort" <bro...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1119818879.1...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >
> >
> > Hawkeye wrote:
> >>
> >> On another note the "batmobile" despite early ughs actually came off
> >> well.
> >
> > I also agree with this. When i saw the initial pictures, i was
> > repulsed. But it actually fit in the movie and looked somewhat cool.
> >
> > I still like the look of the burton or animated series' batmobiles
> > better though.
>
>
> off 'atleast me' was it didnt look like a "Batmobile".
In the early issues of DETECTIVE, Batman's car, even the first
one referred to as a "Batmobile" was just a powerful roadster.
It was originally colored red!
The black paint-job, and assorted bat-logos, fins and bat-headed
battering rams came later. The Batmobile evolved, just as the
Knight's costume and other weapons did. I'm sure that the
sequels will show this, yielding new toys and action-figures.
>
> Overall hopefully this movie ages better than the Burton effort. And
> frankly I am looking foward to seeing what they do with the sequel.
Same here.
I do wish that "Rachel Dawes" had been named "Julie Madison",
though.
Kevin
David B
> The black paint-job, and assorted bat-logos, fins and bat-headed
> battering rams came later. The Batmobile evolved, just as the
> Knight's costume and other weapons did. I'm sure that the
> sequels will show this, yielding new toys and action-figures.
>
> >
> > Overall hopefully this movie ages better than the Burton effort. And
> > frankly I am looking foward to seeing what they do with the sequel.
>
> Same here.
>
> I do wish that "Rachel Dawes" had been named "Julie Madison",
> though.
They used that name in Batman and Robin. I'm sure they wanted to avoid any
connection to that turkey.
ron saarna
"Kurt Busiek" <kurtb...@aol.comics> wrote in message
Memory can be a strange thing indeed... I was waffling between DKR and Year
One and therefore my weasel words. Somehow I do have it burned into my head
that Alfred was the one that saved him.
I always liked the idea that Alfred has been a "father" to Bruce for much
longer than Thomas was, helped raise him, and like any parent feels angst as
to what has become of his child, yet still supports him in his endeavours.
The tragedy is that Bruce doesn't recognize that on a higher level, but
still lets Alfred spout his objections in dry, British wit. Michael Gough to
me was Alfred, but I haven't seen Batman Begins yet and have faith in
Michael Caine to pull something new out of his hat.
Hawkeye
Hawkeye
>> "Bort" <bro...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1119818879.1...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> >
>> >
>> > Hawkeye wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On another note the "batmobile" despite early ughs actually came
>> >> off
>> >> well.
>> >
>> > I also agree with this. When i saw the initial pictures, i was
>> > repulsed. But it actually fit in the movie and looked somewhat
>> > cool.
>> >
>> > I still like the look of the burton or animated series' batmobiles
>> > better though.
>>
>>
>> The thing that threw people
>> off 'atleast me' was it didnt look like a "Batmobile".
>
> In the early issues of DETECTIVE, Batman's car, even the first
> one referred to as a "Batmobile" was just a powerful roadster.
> It was originally colored red!
1936 Cord with a bat hood ornament.
> The black paint-job, and assorted bat-logos, fins and bat-headed
> battering rams came later. The Batmobile evolved, just as the
> Knight's costume and other weapons did. I'm sure that the
> sequels will show this, yielding new toys and action-figures.
Of course what I meant was what everyone thinks of when it comes to a
batmobile. And you know they will change things just for the toy market
alone.
>>
>> Overall hopefully this movie ages better than the Burton effort. And
>> frankly I am looking foward to seeing what they do with the sequel.
>
> Same here.
>
> I do wish that "Rachel Dawes" had been named "Julie Madison",
> though.
>
Yeah that wouldve worked but last I heard she wont be in the sequel so
maybe they can bring in Talia?
Kevrob
> Kevrob wrote:
>
> >
> > I do wish that "Rachel Dawes" had been named "Julie Madison",
> > though.
>
> They used that name in Batman and Robin. I'm sure they wanted to avoid any
> connection to that turkey.
Ah. I avoided that one. I keep telling myself I will rent it
when I'm next in a Leonard Pinth-Garnell* mood, but I've resisted
so far.
Kevin
Kevrob
>
> > 3. I felt that not only having joe chill be captured, but having him be
> > KILLED defeats a lot of what batman is. To some extent, every criminal
> > batman is chasing down is a joe chill who hasn't been caught, just like
> > the one who killed bruce's parents. Now i know in the comics there
> > have been stories where joe chill was caught, but for a very long time
> > he wasn't, and i felt that's what made batman the character he is.
> > Anyone else have an issue with this?
>
> Not this in particular. He didn't get the personal closure he wanted.
> But Joe Chill has been found and killed in the comics before, so, not
> that big a deal to me.
>
Bill Finger's original Joe Chill story is one of the best of the
old Batman tales. Bruce was cheated of his revenge then, but at
least Chill died knowing that the Batman was out to get him, and
probably felt that his capture or worse was inevitable.
> > 4. I know this was previously brought up, but seriously, he's the "dark
> > night detective", where were his sleuthing skills??? When the fake
> > ra's started speaking in the foreign language, i half expected bruce to
> > come back speaking the language.
>
> Apparently detecting is only interesting if it's on tv, or if it's
> Sherlock Holmes. And with all the recent Holmes movies, apparently we
> shouldn't hold our breath. But you're right.
>
> > And i ALSO thought bruce was going to be able to make the antidote
> > himself. I mean he knows chemistry in the comics and on BTAS. Maybe
> > they wanted to add some realism and not make him know everything, but
> > that's part of the character.
>
> I've heard the realism reason before. But part of Batman isn't that he
> can just punch really well, but that he's a genius too. Sure, he
> hasn't dedicated himself to Quantum physics like Reed Richards or
> something - but if it would be pertinent to his field, he should have
> some knowledge about it. It felt odd that he need stuff explained to
> him by Lucius. Know how to make the antidote himself at this stage of
> his career? Maybe not. Need it explained to him in plain english?
> naaaaaa. But then, Fox's many area's of expertise were just as silly
> as it would have been for Bruce to be an expert in it all.
>
>
There's always the possibility that Bruce was playing dumb,
and only made use of Fox's talents because of the press of time
in the case of the antidote. We do see him speaking one of the
dialects of Chinese - with subtitles - in the "knocking over the
warehouse" scene before he meets "Ducard."
Wayne plainly(?) got himself sent down from Princeton on purpose,
in order to deflect suspicion that he was academically gifted.
> Yeah, I liked Gough, and Cain really ISN'T Alfred...but he was so good,
> I didn't care. He and Freeman steal the movie.
>
Gough is pretty old now. imdb.com gives his birthyear as 1917. In
"Begins" he's supposed to be younger than he is in 1987's "Batman,"
and the Alfred who takes care of "young Master Bruce" on the day of
his parents' funeral is younger still.
> > 7. I could have done without bale shouting as batman. He just sounded
> > weird when he was trying to be gruff and yell at the same time. I
> > think he could have been just as imposing by speaking at a normal tone.
>
> There were a couple other bad things - Katie Holmes was not only an
> unecessary character (Harvey Dent would have been just as useful), but
> she was horribly miscast. Every scene with her could have been cut
> without drastically altering the movie.
KH has her good points, but any of the actresses that play
assistant DAs on the "Law & Order" shows would have been more
convincing as a crusading prosecutrex. Because of all that
TomKat nonsense in the mediasphere, I somehow know that she's
26 years-old, and so conceivably could have finished law school
and been hired by the DA, but I still see "Joey" when I look at
her. Mind you, when I was that age I was disconsolate because
my dimpled, freckled, brunette ex-girlfriend moved out of town
to go to law school, so maybe I'm just bitter. :)
> And the fact that she takes down Scarecrow...ugh...
>
At least they foreshadowed that with her attempted
Tazering of the Bat.
> The train ending wasn't anything special to end a movie on. And did I
> mention how awful the fight scenes were...?
>
One point on Batman's "let him die" attitude in those scenes:
the Knight let a crook fall to his doom as early as `TEC 27,
opining that it was "a fitting end for his kind." It wasn't
until the DC editors got a bit queasy over Bats machine-gunning
people that Prof. Hugo Strange had turned into zombies that the
law was laid down that Batman doesn't kill, nor use guns.
See Scott Tipton's article on the early Batman stories @
http://moviepoopshoot.com/comics101/40.html
Kevin
Lynley James
>Lynley James wrote:
>> On 25 Jun 2005 22:32:18 -0700, "Bort" <bro...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >SPOILER SPACE
>> >.
>> >.
>> >.
>> >.
>> >.
>> >.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>
>>
>> I hate this style of filming fight scenes. Even the first one that
>> was well lit was difficult to follow. I know that the reasoning is to
>> give one a sense that you are in the fight and to show the pace and
>> ferocity of a fight, but it just ends up being a confused jumbled mess
>> on screen. They used this technique in the otherwise entertaining
>> Bourne Supremacy and that ruined whole tracts of both films for me.
>
>
>There's a GREAT example. A really good movie ruined by the fact that
>every action scene made me want to vomit from the camera jerking around
>all over the place. It probably made the stunt coordinator want to
>vomit too, after planning all these great, intricate fight and chase
>scenes, that look great - and then you can't seem them because the
>director want to be an auteur.
>
I just saw teh Borne Identity on Sunday again and the fight scenes
there were so much better, especially the Matrixy type scenes in the
park and the embassy. The fight in his flat in Paris was superb and
what I imagine a Batman Ras fight would look like.
Lynley
Lynley James
I understand that Batman is a hit and run fighter. He gets it done
quick and quietly, however you never get a sense of the fact that he
is a great fighter. even the longer scenes of him fighting in the
prison are too murky. Step back and give us a fight to appreciate,
just because you do this doesn't mean it has to be a 20minute Hong
Kong beat 'em up.
Lynley
Lynley James
SNIP
>
>Other things I liked:
>
>Thought the cast was great, with some pretty one note characters.
>Ironically for a Batman movie, Batman was the most rounded interesting
>character, and the rest were kind of cardboard cutouts. Bale was very
>good as Batman. Although no Conroy (I love that he's the only one who
>gets Batman is Bruce's regular voice, and he uses a lighter, more
>carefree voice to be Bruce - not a gruff voice to "play Batman". This
>Batman I could care for some, and feel for.
>
>Besides Batman, Alfred, and Fox, the Scarecrow was a delicious
>performance. And I liked the role Gordon played, and wouldn't mind
>seeing more of him.
I've wondered about the actor who played Crane since I saw the film.
Isn't he the same kid/guy who played a young Bruce Banner in the Hulk
film?
>
>The tone of the movie was pretty right. And there were some fun
>touches. I still like seeing Zsasz. While not necessarily screaming
>to be in a movie, I still think the best modern run of villians came
>from the Grant/Breyfogle run.
>
I recognised the name Zsasz, but for the life of me cannot remember
who he is in the comics. PLease put me out of my misery ;O)
Lynley
Scott Streeter
> I recognised the name Zsasz, but for the life of me cannot remember
> who he is in the comics. PLease put me out of my misery ;O)
>
> Lynley
He's a serial killer from the comics although I don't think we've seen
him for awhile. He cuts a hash marks into his body for every person he
kills so his body is covered with them.
http://www.darkunderground.co.uk/bios_zsasz.htm
--
Scott Streeter
s...@wpi.edu
http://www.wpi.edu/~ss/
Glennsim
> >
> >The tone of the movie was pretty right. And there were some fun
> >touches. I still like seeing Zsasz. While not necessarily screaming
> >to be in a movie, I still think the best modern run of villians came
> >from the Grant/Breyfogle run.
> >
>
> I recognised the name Zsasz, but for the life of me cannot remember
> who he is in the comics. PLease put me out of my misery ;O)
>
> Lynley
I remember who he is from the comics, but I missed the reference to him
in the movie - could someone tell me when it happened?
Lynley James
>Lynley James <lynley...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> I recognised the name Zsasz, but for the life of me cannot remember
>> who he is in the comics. PLease put me out of my misery ;O)
>>
>> Lynley
>
>He's a serial killer from the comics although I don't think we've seen
>him for awhile. He cuts a hash marks into his body for every person he
>kills so his body is covered with them.
>
>http://www.darkunderground.co.uk/bios_zsasz.htm
Thanks, but is there another Zsasz in comics as this one doesn't ring
a bell?
Lynley
Lynley James
>Lynley James wrote:
>
>> I've wondered about the actor who played Crane since I saw the film.
>> Isn't he the same kid/guy who played a young Bruce Banner in the Hulk
>> film?
>
>Nah. According to the IMDB, young Bruce Banner was played by a Mike
>Erwin. Crane/Scarecrow was played by Cillian Murphy, an Irish actor
>who's amassed a bunch of favorable notice recently for roles in things
>like "28 Days Later", "Girl With a Pearl Earring" and "Cold Mountain."
Maybe I've seen him in some British TV show then. He does look
remarkably, to me in any case, like the kid who played young Bruce
Banner.
Lynley
Lynley James
wrote:
It's when Rachel Dawes is questioning Crane in court about whether the
defendant, Crane, is legally insane or not. Basically it's a setup to
establish Crane's relationship with Falcone.
Lynley
CleV
<lynley...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 29 Jun 2005 13:24:44 -0400, Scott Streeter <s...@ccc5.wpi.edu> wrote:
>>Lynley James <lynley...@gmail.com> writes:
>>> I recognised the name Zsasz, but for the life of me cannot remember
>>> who he is in the comics. PLease put me out of my misery ;O)
>>He's a serial killer from the comics although I don't think we've seen
>>him for awhile. He cuts a hash marks into his body for every person he
>>kills so his body is covered with them.
>>http://www.darkunderground.co.uk/bios_zsasz.htm
>Thanks, but is there another Zsasz in comics as this one doesn't ring
>a bell?
Perhaps you're thinking of Zsasz - the Sprite Supreme, Alan Moore's
version of Mr. Mxyltptk (sp) in Supreme.
ATKo...@aol.com
> I've wondered about the actor who played Crane since I saw the film.
> Isn't he the same kid/guy who played a young Bruce Banner in the Hulk
> film?
Nah. According to the IMDB, young Bruce Banner was played by a Mike
Henry Chen
Lynley James <lynley...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Jun 2005 16:36:21 -0400, "arnold kim"
> <arno...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
> >
> ><mwo...@umich.edu> wrote in message
> >news:1119902475.3...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> >> Lynley James wrote:
> >>> On 25 Jun 2005 22:32:18 -0700, "Bort" <bro...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> >SPOILER SPACE
> >>
> >> That's the key. Let us SEE the fight. Not the actor's face. It's like
> >> every American director that tells Jackie Chan they need to shoot him
> >> up close, and make the fight scenes short and sweet, because that's
> >> what American audiences like. NOT.
> >
> >The difference here is that showing some kind of elaborate fight scene
> >wouldn't really fit with the style of the movie, which is kind of dark and
> >mysterious in nature. In this film the fights are actually choreographed a
> >bit more realistically, and had they been filmed less obliquely, they
> >wouldn't be terribly interesting compared to other Hollywood films.
> >
> >Arnold Kim
> >
>
>
> I understand that Batman is a hit and run fighter. He gets it done
> quick and quietly, however you never get a sense of the fact that he
> is a great fighter. even the longer scenes of him fighting in the
> prison are too murky. Step back and give us a fight to appreciate,
> just because you do this doesn't mean it has to be a 20minute Hong
> Kong beat 'em up.
>
> Lynley
To me, taking out 6 or so thugs at the same time is pretty good. I do
understand what you're saying, but for this kind of movie, I felt
anything that might looks like choreography (except the training bits
which were meant to be sophisticated) wouldn't look right.
Kevrob
Then there's Denny O'Neil's ridiculous retcon of the Question's
civilian ID from "Vic Sage" to "Charles Victor Szasz." Blecchh!
Kevin
David Johnston
<lynley...@gmail.com> wrote:
You are probably thinking of the electrical guy from Marvel comics
whose name isn't really that but does start with a Z.
Lynley James
I think that that's it, thanks.
Lynley
Jeremy Henderson
wrote:
>> There's a GREAT example. A really good movie ruined by the fact that
>> every action scene made me want to vomit from the camera jerking around
>> all over the place. It probably made the stunt coordinator want to
>> vomit too, after planning all these great, intricate fight and chase
>> scenes, that look great - and then you can't seem them because the
>> director want to be an auteur.
>>
>
>I seem to be one of the few who really dug how Nolan decided to do the
>fights. I've seen Batman fight already, in various mediums, and it was
>nice to see it from the victim's POV. Plus Batman is not going to have a
>Jackie Chan/Jet Li wuxia style fight. He's going to punch you so hard
>that you would vomit if you weren't unconscious and he's going to to do
>it right away. Here I really believed they couldn't get a bead on him
>and had no idea what the hell was going on. And you do seem him in
>costume quite a bit later on, so it's not like they hide him the whole
>time.
It really did seem like Nolan was going to a more realistic tone in
general, and the fight scenes felt to me much lore like real fights
than most other action films. Real fights, even between skilled
combatants, are chaotic, tense and not terribly pretty to watch. Nolan
captured that feeling perfectly.
Jeremy Henderson
>One point on Batman's "let him die" attitude in those scenes:
>the Knight let a crook fall to his doom as early as `TEC 27,
>opining that it was "a fitting end for his kind." It wasn't
>until the DC editors got a bit queasy over Bats machine-gunning
>people that Prof. Hugo Strange had turned into zombies that the
>law was laid down that Batman doesn't kill, nor use guns.
A ridiculous exception to this rule being Batman barricading KGBeast
in the Gotham sewers and leaving him there, presumably to die. One of
the dumbest endings to a comic story I've ever read.
pseudosoldier
>SPOILER SPACE
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>2. Isn't his name pronounced "raysh"? Not sure where i heard this,
>maybe on batman: the animated series? When i first read the name i
>thought it was "roz", but then having heard it pronounced "raysh" at
>some point, i always figured that's what it was. I was surprised to
>hear it as "roz" in this movie.
>
I believe it was pronounced "raysh" in the animated series. It
shouldn't be, if they're lifting it from classical Arabic (although I
have to concede the point that there may be a dialect that mangles the
"seen" into the "sheen"). "Roz" would also be a slurring, but it's
closer. R'as. There's a slight glottal stop in the vowelling, and
it's certainly an "s" sound at the end.
>3. I felt that not only having joe chill be captured, but having him be
>KILLED defeats a lot of what batman is. To some extent, every criminal
>batman is chasing down is a joe chill who hasn't been caught, just like
>the one who killed bruce's parents. Now i know in the comics there
>have been stories where joe chill was caught, but for a very long time
>he wasn't, and i felt that's what made batman the character he is.
>Anyone else have an issue with this?
>
I thought it was okay. Even if Chill himself was caught, he was never
truly brought to justice, not the justice that Batman finally embraced
after he got over his revenge kick.
>6. I imagined michael cain having a much more high class british
>accent. He sounded a bit cockney and lower class. I guess you would
>assume someone who's a butler wouldn't really have come from the best
>lineage. Maybe i've been spoiled by BTAS where alfred sounds so
>proper.
>
This jarred me a bit as well, at first. I grew accustomed to it.
I reminded myself that this is simply a different take on the
character, but I felt that all the essentials were there... I enjoyed
it greatly.
-- pseudosoldier
Michael S. Schiffer
news:42c6c244...@news-server.hot.rr.com:
> On 25 Jun 2005 22:32:18 -0700, "Bort" <bro...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>SPOILER SPACE
>>.
>>.
>>.
>>.
>>.
>>.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>...
>>3. I felt that not only having joe chill be captured, but having
>>him be KILLED defeats a lot of what batman is. To some extent,
>>every criminal batman is chasing down is a joe chill who hasn't
>>been caught, just like the one who killed bruce's parents. Now
>>i know in the comics there have been stories where joe chill was
>>caught, but for a very long time he wasn't, and i felt that's
>>what made batman the character he is. Anyone else have an issue
>>with this?
> I thought it was okay. Even if Chill himself was caught, he was
> never truly brought to justice, not the justice that Batman
> finally embraced after he got over his revenge kick.
And being killed by other criminals was, after all, Joe Chill's
fate for the thirty-odd years he was in the comics continuity.
(Admittedly later in Batman's career, and because of his role in
creating the Batman, but still.) Making the death of Joe Chill the
turning point between Bruce Wayne pursuing his personal vengeance
and Bruce Wayne fighting for justice is, I think, very appropriate.
Mike
--
Michael S. Schiffer, LHN, FCS
msch...@condor.depaul.edu
mwo...@umich.edu
villian from the Alan Grant and Norm Breyfogle run on Detective and
Shadow of the Bat. Perhaps the richest era for new villians in the
modern era. He was basically just a serial killer, but a very prolific
one - and for every person he killed, he scarred himself a roman
numeral on his body. So his body is covered with #5 roman
numerals...just like in the movie, as you can see under his collar.
That trademark, and some unreal eyes in the comic may not elevate him
to the Joker's level - but he was done as creepy realistic.
Chris C.
mwo...@umich.edu
was. When really it just meant who ELSE went by that...
Chris C.
Rage
> > >> That's the key. Let us SEE the fight. Not the actor's face. It's
like
> > >> every American director that tells Jackie Chan they need to shoot him
> > >> up close, and make the fight scenes short and sweet, because that's
> > >> what American audiences like. NOT.
> > >
> > >The difference here is that showing some kind of elaborate fight scene
> > >wouldn't really fit with the style of the movie, which is kind of dark
and
> > >mysterious in nature. In this film the fights are actually
choreographed a
> > >bit more realistically, and had they been filmed less obliquely, they
> > >wouldn't be terribly interesting compared to other Hollywood films.
> > >
> > >Arnold Kim
> > >
> >
> >
> > I understand that Batman is a hit and run fighter. He gets it done
> > quick and quietly, however you never get a sense of the fact that he
> > is a great fighter. even the longer scenes of him fighting in the
> > prison are too murky. Step back and give us a fight to appreciate,
> > just because you do this doesn't mean it has to be a 20minute Hong
> > Kong beat 'em up.
> >
> > Lynley
>
> To me, taking out 6 or so thugs at the same time is pretty good. I do
> understand what you're saying, but for this kind of movie, I felt
> anything that might looks like choreography (except the training bits
> which were meant to be sophisticated) wouldn't look right.
The reason fights are filmed like this so often is due to the fact that
most/all of the actors aren't skilled enough to make it look good. The
training that the actors in "The Matrix" went through is virtually
unprecedented in American filmmaking. In addition, few American actors can
put on the kind of show that Jet Li, Jason Statham, etc. can. However, due
to the subject matter in "Batman Begins", the way the fights were filmed
works from an artisitc standpoint. When Batman attacks you, it's very dark,
and you don't know what's going on before you get KTFO. This style of fight
choreography/filming is less appropriate in a movie like "The Bourne
Identity", where Matt Damon claims to have trained a fair amount in Kali,
but everything is cut so quickly and close, you'd never know.
- Rage, who wonders when a director will have the balls to have a fight
scene choreographed like the one at the end of Lethal Weapon (1).