Etrigan rhyming again

7 views
Skip to first unread message

Fiddlehead Fern

unread,
Sep 17, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/17/99
to
So much for John Byrne.

I had a feeling all that nonsense from Wonder Woman would last only as long
as he was on the book.

It's for the best methinks.

-Mr. Fern

ALBERT B. CHING

unread,
Sep 17, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/17/99
to

fif...@shrubbery.edu (Fiddlehead Fern) wrote:

>I had a feeling all that nonsense from Wonder Woman would last only as long
>as he was on the book.

I feel much the same about John Byrne. What he did to Donna Troi
made my stomach turn. If his run is being ignored, I think we're
all in luck. After all, it certainly did suck.

Albert
--

Peter Robertson

unread,
Sep 17, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/17/99
to
Now that John Byrne is left
Wonder Girl has no longer a large cleft (in her history....alright)
As people did say, his work on it did suck
Now that he's gone, it is seen that DC, about his work, does no longer give
a....franchise.


Elayne Riggs

unread,
Sep 17, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/17/99
to
Fiddlehead Fern <fif...@shrubbery.edu> happened to mention:

> So much for John Byrne.

> I had a feeling all that nonsense from Wonder Woman would last only as long


> as he was on the book.

> It's for the best methinks.

Even though it plays havoc with continuity? ;)

- Elayne (very much in favor of ignoring bad stories)

bre...@hotmail.com

unread,
Sep 17, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/17/99
to
Ow.

If you cannot live up to the standard of Alan Moore,
please dont have Etrigan rhyme.

It only makes him, and you look silly.


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

Ramhog

unread,
Sep 17, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/17/99
to
Sure I hate Byrne and all, but that whole rhyming business really got on
my nerves. I was relieved to see it go (not in a Byrne book-- somewhere
else).

--
-Later, R.

=====================================================================

"It smells like my GRAMPA!!"
-Milhous VanHouten

Patrick McClue

unread,
Sep 17, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/17/99
to
Elayne Riggs (fire...@panix.com) wrote:
: Fiddlehead Fern <fif...@shrubbery.edu> happened to mention:

: > So much for John Byrne.

: > I had a feeling all that nonsense from Wonder Woman would last only as long
: > as he was on the book.

: > It's for the best methinks.

: Even though it plays havoc with continuity? ;)

Byrne plays havoc with continuity :-)

The only book I'd like to see Byrne on is Alpha Flight. To me, that is
the only book where if he "changed everyone as they were meant to be" I
wouldn't mind.

Patrick

Dwiff

unread,
Sep 17, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/17/99
to
<< Now that John Byrne is left
Wonder Girl has no longer a large cleft (in her history....alright) >>


Unfortunately TPTB chose to ignore the Etrigan story points but use the Wonder
Girl plot points, giving Donna Troy the most ridiculous backstory in comics.
They should have ignored more than Byrne's Demon... (Donna Troy, Fourth
World...)

Elayne Riggs

unread,
Sep 18, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/18/99
to
Patrick McClue <pmc...@mail1.sas.upenn.edu> happened to mention:

> Elayne Riggs (fire...@panix.com) wrote:
> : Fiddlehead Fern <fif...@shrubbery.edu> happened to mention:
> : > So much for John Byrne.

> : > I had a feeling all that nonsense from Wonder Woman would last only as long
> : > as he was on the book.

> : > It's for the best methinks.

> : Even though it plays havoc with continuity? ;)

> Byrne plays havoc with continuity :-)

Aha, the "two wrongs DO make a right" school of retcon support. :)

- Elayne

Elayne Riggs

unread,
Sep 18, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/18/99
to
bre...@hotmail.com happened to mention:
> Ow.

> If you cannot live up to the standard of Alan Moore,
> please dont have Etrigan rhyme.

> It only makes him, and you look silly.

Well, aside from the fact that very few writers are EVER going to live up
to the standard of Alan Moore, I disagree because I think some writers
HAVE had him rhyming very amusingly. Len Kaminski's use of him in SCARE
TACTICS leaps to mind.

- Elayne

Kevin J. Maroney

unread,
Sep 18, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/18/99
to
Elayne Riggs <fire...@panix.com> wrote:

>Fiddlehead Fern <fif...@shrubbery.edu> happened to mention:
>> So much for John Byrne.
>
>> I had a feeling all that nonsense from Wonder Woman would last only as long
>> as he was on the book.
>
>> It's for the best methinks.
>
>Even though it plays havoc with continuity? ;)

Yes, because it restores real continuity after a set of stories which
flagrantly ignored and maliciously rewrote continuity.

--
Kevin J. Maroney | Crossover Technologies | kmar...@crossover.com
"There is a better world. There has to be."--Kay Challis

TyBunny

unread,
Sep 18, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/18/99
to
Just for the fun of it...I should jump in here and remind folks that Etrigan
was NOT a rhyming Demon when he was CREATED by Jack Kirby...just a Demon. It
was Alan Moore, who fiddled with continuity to make him a rhymer (something I
very much liked, by the way). If you want to use the Demon and have him rhyme,
or use the Demon and have him NOT rhyme, both are equally correct, but
technically, NOT rhyming is the "original" version of the character.

I wrote a Demon story once, where the character rhymed, but it was damn near
impossible to tell, because the ryhme scheme was very obtuse. His last line of
dialogue in the story rhymed with his first line of dialogue...his second last
line, rhymed with the second line, the third last for the third line, etc, etc,
etc. and he was only in the story for two pages. The rhyme scheme was
something to the effect of: ABCDEFGHHGFEDCBA. That way, folks reading the
story were probably unaware he was rhyming, but the readers who liked the Alan
Moore version were given that version as wel if they were willing to hunt for
it.

(Only one reader actually noticed the rhyme scheme at the time, and sent me a
nice email about it.)

Anyway....John Byrne's lack of rhyme on the Demon wasn't a continuity retcon
thing, really (though John is a real pill about that stuff, I know), but a
return to the Kirby version of the character.

Ty the Guy. Quiet sigh. The time is nigh to say goodbye.

Ralf Haring

unread,
Sep 18, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/18/99
to
TyBunny wrote:
>
> Ty the Guy. Quiet sigh. The time is nigh to say goodbye.

Why, God, why?

///
Ralf (. .) Haring
|-------oOO-(_)-OOo-------|
| Kilroy is watching YOU! |
|-------------------------|

Dwiff

unread,
Sep 18, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/18/99
to
All true Ty, and I believe all ready covered, although maybe that was in the
"Demon question" thread. Same topic, different header--and the Byrne argument
was ignited there as well--i.e. is he wreaking unnecessary havoc or merely
returning things to their roots? Or both and neither. It was even suggested
(not by me) that his fusing of Apokalips and New Genesis in JKFW was an attempt
to return them to their roots, cuz they were one world on page 2 of New Gods
Vol.1 number1 (!)

Nick Eden

unread,
Sep 18, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/18/99
to
On Fri, 17 Sep 1999 23:56:53 GMT, bre...@hotmail.com wrote:

>Ow.
>
>If you cannot live up to the standard of Alan Moore,
>please dont have Etrigan rhyme.
>
>It only makes him, and you look silly.

True, but most writers are up to Kirby's standards, and since he
started the whole rhyming thing, that seems the standard to compare
to.
-------------------------------------------------
Driving for Loons
The American Southwest: Too many miles in too few days
http://www.pheasnt.demon.co.uk/Driving.html

Nick Eden

unread,
Sep 18, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/18/99
to
On 18 Sep 1999 18:53:15 GMT, tyb...@aol.com (TyBunny) wrote:

>Just for the fun of it...I should jump in here and remind folks that Etrigan
>was NOT a rhyming Demon when he was CREATED by Jack Kirby...just a Demon. It
>was Alan Moore, who fiddled with continuity to make him a rhymer (something I
>very much liked, by the way). If you want to use the Demon and have him rhyme,
>or use the Demon and have him NOT rhyme, both are equally correct, but
>technically, NOT rhyming is the "original" version of the character.

Discuss.

I've got a copy of Demon #3 in front of me. From page 14:

"Hahahahahah!
Trick for Trick
Kill for Kill!
Drink bitter wine
and DEMON swill!
Dead you were...
Dead you shall be...
And all because
you fought with me!
Hahahahahah!"

I'd say that rhymed.

Now it's perfectly true that Etrigan's not rhyming exclusively, but it
sure seems to have been one of those things he was doing, way back
when.

Todd VerBeek

unread,
Sep 18, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/18/99
to
>On 18 Sep 1999 18:53:15 GMT, tyb...@aol.com (TyBunny) wrote:
>>Just for the fun of it...I should jump in here and remind folks that Etrigan
>>was NOT a rhyming Demon when he was CREATED by Jack Kirby...just a Demon. It
>>was Alan Moore, who fiddled with continuity to make him a rhymer (something I
>>very much liked, by the way). If you want to use the Demon and have him rhyme,
>>or use the Demon and have him NOT rhyme, both are equally correct, but
>>technically, NOT rhyming is the "original" version of the character.

My pal Nick Eden said:
>Discuss.
>I've got a copy of Demon #3 in front of me. From page 14:

(I assume this is the original Kirby series.)

>"Hahahahahah!
>Trick for Trick
>Kill for Kill!
>Drink bitter wine
>and DEMON swill!
>Dead you were...
>Dead you shall be...
>And all because
>you fought with me!
>Hahahahahah!"
>
>I'd say that rhymed.

ABBCCA, in fact.

>Now it's perfectly true that Etrigan's not rhyming exclusively, but it
>sure seems to have been one of those things he was doing, way back
>when.

And quite possibly where Moore got it from?

Cheers, Todd

Todd VerBeek

unread,
Sep 18, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/18/99
to
My pal TyBunny said:
>Just for the fun of it...I should jump in here and remind folks that Etrigan
>was NOT a rhyming Demon when he was CREATED by Jack Kirby...just a Demon. It
>was Alan Moore, who fiddled with continuity to make him a rhymer (something I
>very much liked, by the way). If you want to use the Demon and have him rhyme,
>or use the Demon and have him NOT rhyme, both are equally correct, but
>technically, NOT rhyming is the "original" version of the character.
....

>Anyway....John Byrne's lack of rhyme on the Demon wasn't a continuity retcon
>thing, really (though John is a real pill about that stuff, I know), but a
>return to the Kirby version of the character.

Which =is= a retcon of a sort, because it tends to either wipe out past
continuity (e.g. Superman), introduce new bits of history which were not
there before he wrote them (e.g. Wonder-Hippo in the JSA), or at least
throw the status of continuity into question (e.g. Does Etrigan speak in
rhyme?)

Cheers, Todd

Tenzel Kim

unread,
Sep 18, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/18/99
to
>Just for the fun of it...I should jump in here and remind folks that
Etrigan
>was NOT a rhyming Demon when he was CREATED by Jack Kirby...just a Demon.
It
>was Alan Moore, who fiddled with continuity to make him a rhymer (something
I
>very much liked, by the way). If you want to use the Demon and have him
rhyme,
>or use the Demon and have him NOT rhyme, both are equally correct, but
>technically, NOT rhyming is the "original" version of the character.


Actually that's not quite true. It's right that Etrigan was not created as
the rhyming Demon, but Kirby was the first to introduce that aspect of the
character if only for one issue, in the Demon #3. The first writer to use it
consistantly was Len Wein in "The Resurgence of Blackfriar Thorn" in DC
Comics Presents #66. Wein had previously played around with the idea in the
Demon back-up stories in Detective. It wasn't till a few months after the DC
Comics Presents story that the Demon showed up in Alan Moore's Swamp Thing.

>I wrote a Demon story once, where the character rhymed, but it was damn
near
>impossible to tell, because the ryhme scheme was very obtuse. His last
line of
>dialogue in the story rhymed with his first line of dialogue...his second
last
>line, rhymed with the second line, the third last for the third line, etc,
etc,
>etc. and he was only in the story for two pages. The rhyme scheme was
>something to the effect of: ABCDEFGHHGFEDCBA. That way, folks reading the
>story were probably unaware he was rhyming, but the readers who liked the
Alan
>Moore version were given that version as wel if they were willing to hunt
for
>it.

Which story was this?

Tenz.

Patrick McClue

unread,
Sep 19, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/19/99
to
Elayne Riggs (fire...@panix.com) wrote:
: Patrick McClue <pmc...@mail1.sas.upenn.edu> happened to mention:

: > Elayne Riggs (fire...@panix.com) wrote:
: > : Fiddlehead Fern <fif...@shrubbery.edu> happened to mention:
: > : > So much for John Byrne.

: > : > I had a feeling all that nonsense from Wonder Woman would last only as long
: > : > as he was on the book.

: > : > It's for the best methinks.

: > : Even though it plays havoc with continuity? ;)

: > Byrne plays havoc with continuity :-)

: Aha, the "two wrongs DO make a right" school of retcon support. :)


:-) I do believe in "fixing up someone else's mistake" retcons when
necessary.

Patrick

Pierce Askegren

unread,
Sep 19, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/19/99
to
In <19990918145315...@ng-fk1.aol.com> tyb...@aol.com

(TyBunny) writes:
>
>Just for the fun of it...I should jump in here and remind folks that
Etrigan
>was NOT a rhyming Demon when he was CREATED by Jack Kirby...just a
Demon. It
>was Alan Moore, who fiddled with continuity to make him a rhymer
(something I
>very much liked, by the way).


This is mentioned a lot, but I don't think it's entirely true. The
first time I remember the Demon rhyming was in the Wein/Kubert DC
COMICS PRESENTS story. I think it was Moore who introduced the idea
that the reason Etrigan had started speaking in verse was that he had
been promoted to a more prominent rank of demons. Someone with a more
organized collection than me can check the dates adn verify, tho.

My favorite rhyming scheme was the issue of BLUE DEVIL where he spoke
entirely in limericks.

P.

Elayne Riggs

unread,
Sep 19, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/19/99
to
Patrick McClue <pmc...@mail2.sas.upenn.edu> happened to mention:

> Elayne Riggs (fire...@panix.com) wrote:
> : Aha, the "two wrongs DO make a right" school of retcon support. :)

> :-) I do believe in "fixing up someone else's mistake" retcons when
> necessary.

All facetiousness aside, I believe in the writer making the determination
on a case-by-case basis. I really hate the school of thought that says
"all retcons are bad," because there are any number of cases (and for
different people it'll be different things, not all fans are ever going to
agree on each case) where the retcon will be deemed to have "fixed"
something or made for a better story and character, and cases where it'll
be seen as "breaking" something or making for worse stories.

- Elayne

Kevin J. Maroney

unread,
Sep 19, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/19/99
to
tyb...@aol.com (TyBunny) wrote:

>Just for the fun of it...I should jump in here and remind folks that Etrigan
>was NOT a rhyming Demon when he was CREATED by Jack Kirby...just a Demon. It
>was Alan Moore, who fiddled with continuity to make him a rhymer (something I

>very much liked, by the way). If you want to use the Demon and have him rhyme,
>or use the Demon and have him NOT rhyme, both are equally correct, but
>technically, NOT rhyming is the "original" version of the character.

As others have pointed out, Kirby did have Etrigan rhyme for an
extended piece of dialogue in _The Demon_ #3, and Len Wein made him
rhyme consistently.

More importantly, presenting "the original version" of a character is
*not* adhering to continuity if the character has changed
significantly in the years between the original appearances and the
current version. If Reed Richards were suddenly not married to Sue
Storm in next month's _FF_--and it was clear that they had *never*
been married--that wouldn't be true to continuity even though it's the
"original version", and I think most readers would find it
disconcerting or even appalling.

The question of whether Etrigan speaks in rhyme is not quite at that
level of obvious problem, but it's still a big part of the character
now. The vast majority of Etrigan's appearances before _Wonder Woman_
#105 showed Etrigan rhyming; claiming that these stories are somehow
"invalid" interpretations of the character strikes at the core of the
development of the shared universe of DC's DCU comics.

RMorris306

unread,
Sep 20, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/20/99
to

<<True, but most writers are up to Kirby's standards, and since he
started the whole rhyming thing, that seems the standard to compare to.>>

"Most writers are up to Kirby's standards?" Indeed? How many writers can you
think of who can create, or have created (wholly or partially), even HALF the
characters Kirby has?

Rich

Todd VerBeek

unread,
Sep 20, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/20/99
to
><<True, but most writers are up to Kirby's standards, and since he
>started the whole rhyming thing, that seems the standard to compare to.>>

My pal RMorris306 said:
> "Most writers are up to Kirby's standards?" Indeed? How many writers can you
>think of who can create, or have created (wholly or partially), even HALF the
>characters Kirby has?

One doesn't need to do any of that to be a competent rhymer, though.
That's the only standard in question here.

Cheers, Todd

Ramhog

unread,
Sep 20, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/20/99
to
In article <ekDmN8sVVPgEHH...@4ax.com>, Todd VerBeek
<Ver...@bigfoot.com> wrote:

> My pal RMorris306 said:
> > "Most writers are up to Kirby's standards?" Indeed? How many
writers can you
> >think of who can create, or have created (wholly or partially), even HALF the
> >characters Kirby has?
>
> One doesn't need to do any of that to be a competent rhymer, though.
> That's the only standard in question here.


The only writer that didn't annoy me with their rhyming was Alan Moore
(who I thought started that whole thing).

But he comes from a musical background, correct?

Nick Eden

unread,
Sep 20, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/20/99
to
On 20 Sep 1999 04:14:59 GMT, rmorr...@aol.com (RMorris306) wrote:

>
><<True, but most writers are up to Kirby's standards, and since he
>started the whole rhyming thing, that seems the standard to compare to.>>
>

> "Most writers are up to Kirby's standards?" Indeed? How many writers can you
>think of who can create, or have created (wholly or partially), even HALF the
>characters Kirby has?

Sorry, phrased it badly. Most people's dialogue is up to Kirby's
standards. Face it, much as I love Kirby the ideas man, Kirby the
scripter wouldn't win many prizes.

new, improved Mute -even more enzymes!

unread,
Sep 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/21/99
to
ram...@swbell.net (Ramhog) hammered on a keyboard thus:

>The only writer that didn't annoy me with their rhyming was Alan Moore
>(who I thought started that whole thing).

>But he comes from a musical background, correct?

Well, not a background; music is just one of the many things that
he does, along with writing serious, writing funny, drawing, painting,
talking to his snake god...


-Mute.
______________________
who can't bemoan his news server enough

-----------== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ==----------
http://www.newsfeeds.com The Largest Usenet Servers in the World!
------== Over 73,000 Newsgroups - Including Dedicated Binaries Servers ==-----

Danny Sichel

unread,
Sep 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/27/99
to
Ramhog wrote:

>> One doesn't need to do any of that to be a competent rhymer, though.
>> That's the only standard in question here.

> The only writer that didn't annoy me with their rhyming was Alan Moore

How about McDuffie?

"A caring soul has heard your cries of angry discontent.
When your country's gone to Hell, you NEED a demon President!"

... yeah, okay, so there were some forced bits.

Aaron Mojo

unread,
Sep 29, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/29/99
to
> "Most writers are up to Kirby's standards?" Indeed? How many writers
can you
>think of who can create, or have created (wholly or partially), even HALF the
>characters Kirby has?

Yes -- and see, how he crushes the stones like BISCUITS!

Really though, Kirby's stuff is riotous fun to read, and nowhere near as
pretentious as all that Alan Moore garbage (who did write some decent things
early on but has sort of gone the Frank Miller way of being totally cliched and
predictable...)

-Aaron!

Us do OPPOSITE of all Earthly things! Us HATE beauty! Us LOVE ugliness!
Am BIG CRIME to make anything PERFECT on BIZARRO WORLD!

Mute (unsalted variety)

unread,
Sep 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/30/99
to
aaro...@aol.comBizarro (Aaron Mojo) hammered on a keyboard thus:

>> "Most writers are up to Kirby's standards?" Indeed? How many writers
>can you
>>think of who can create, or have created (wholly or partially), even HALF the
>>characters Kirby has?

> Yes -- and see, how he crushes the stones like BISCUITS!

> Really though, Kirby's stuff is riotous fun to read, and nowhere near as
>pretentious as all that Alan Moore garbage (who did write some decent things
>early on but has sort of gone the Frank Miller way of being totally cliched and
>predictable...)

Voice Of The Fire, The Birth Caul, From Hell and The Hasty Tracks
Of My Tears are totally cliched and predictable?


-Mute.
______________________
who has a new contender for "Worst Film I Saw This Year":
Pleasantville (at least it was only on video...)

Louise

unread,
Oct 12, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/12/99
to
>aaro...@aol.comBizarro (Aaron Mojo) hammered on a keyboard thus:
>
>>> "Most writers are up to Kirby's standards?" Indeed? How many writers
>>can you
>>>think of who can create, or have created (wholly or partially), even HALF
>the
>>>characters Kirby has?
>
>> Yes -- and see, how he crushes the stones like BISCUITS!
>
>> Really though, Kirby's stuff is riotous fun to read, and nowhere near as
>>pretentious as all that Alan Moore garbage (who did write some decent things
>>early on but has sort of gone the Frank Miller way of being totally cliched
>and
>>predictable...)
>
> Voice Of The Fire, The Birth Caul, From Hell and The Hasty Tracks
>Of My Tears are totally cliched and predictable?
>
>
>-Mute.

And what about Promethea, from Alan Moore? Familiar elements, perhaps, but
thrown together in very distinctive ways. Not what I would call predictable.

Louise
---------
Giles: Come on, we've got to save Buffy from Hansel and Gretel.
Cordelia: Now, let's be clear...the brain damage happened before I hit you...

Reply all
Reply to author
Forward
0 new messages