Why wasn't Barbara Gordon healed?
D.C. Comics Fan
LexCorps,etc., why wasn't Barbara Gordon's paralysis corrected? I mean
come on.
Robert Vincent
Thus far there is no technology, even in the DCU, that can repair a torn
spinal cord. I believe she was offered a miracle cure (magic) by Neron but
she turned it down, wanting to face her paralysis on her own terms.
Rob THV
--
Elijah Snow : It's a strange world
Jakita Wagner : Let's keep it that way
Planetary #1
I think we've all learned something here! - Sam & Max
Dwight Williams
> D.C. Comics Fan (DCCom...@webtv.net) writes:
> > With all the science and technology in the DCU ie STAR Labs,
> > LexCorps,etc., why wasn't Barbara Gordon's paralysis corrected? I mean
> > come on.
>
> Thus far there is no technology, even in the DCU, that can repair a torn
> spinal cord. I believe she was offered a miracle cure (magic) by Neron but
> she turned it down, wanting to face her paralysis on her own terms.
She's been offered this sort of help by more than Neron alone. Both
Prometheus III and J'Onn J'Onzz have made offers as well. She's turned
down all of them, from good guys as well as bad.
--
Dwight Williams - Orleans(Ottawa), ON, Canada
Personal Homesite: http://www.ncf.ca/~ad696/
*I* own my Usenet postings, not some archival service!
Johanna Draper Carlson
> With all the science and technology in the DCU ie STAR Labs,
> LexCorps,etc., why wasn't Barbara Gordon's paralysis corrected?
Because she wasn't seen as an important enough hero to have to restore.
Batgirl was a joke, fine to use simply as a plot device in a story
exploring the truly interesting, male characters.
Oh, you wanted an in-story reason?
--
Johanna Draper Carlson joh...@comicsworthreading.com
Reviews of Comics Worth Reading -- http://www.comicsworthreading.com
troy
"Johanna Draper Carlson" <joh...@comicsworthreading.com> wrote in message
news:johanna-FE3CD0...@news.mindspring.com...
> DCCom...@webtv.net (D.C. Comics Fan) wrote:
>
> > With all the science and technology in the DCU ie STAR Labs,
> > LexCorps,etc., why wasn't Barbara Gordon's paralysis corrected?
>
> Because she wasn't seen as an important enough hero to have to restore.
> Batgirl was a joke, fine to use simply as a plot device in a story
> exploring the truly interesting, male characters.
>
> Oh, you wanted an in-story reason?
>
no...the defensive female knee-jerk reason is good too :)
Daibhid Chiennedelh
>Date: 04/06/02 12:44 GMT Daylight Time
>Message-id: <johanna-FE3CD0...@news.mindspring.com>
>
> DCCom...@webtv.net (D.C. Comics Fan) wrote:
>
>> With all the science and technology in the DCU ie STAR Labs,
>> LexCorps,etc., why wasn't Barbara Gordon's paralysis corrected?
>
>Because she wasn't seen as an important enough hero to have to restore.
>Batgirl was a joke, fine to use simply as a plot device in a story
>exploring the truly interesting, male characters.
>
>Oh, you wanted an in-story reason?
The other part of the real-world reason is that Oracle is (IMO) about
four-and-a-half times more interesting.
Anyone know why Professor X is still in a wheelchair?
--
Dave
Re-elected for a *third* glorious term as Official Absentee of EU
Skiffeysoc http://www.eusa.ed.ac.uk/societies/sesoc
"Doctor, is that you?"
"Let's pretend it isn't, and see what happens."
Doctor Who: All Consuming Fire, Andy Lane
Daibhid Chiennedelh
>Date: 04/06/02 10:44 GMT Daylight Time
>Message-id: <3CFC8C06...@ncf.ca>
>
>Robert Vincent wrote:
>> D.C. Comics Fan (DCCom...@webtv.net) writes:
>> > With all the science and technology in the DCU ie STAR Labs,
>> > LexCorps,etc., why wasn't Barbara Gordon's paralysis corrected? I mean
>> > come on.
>>
>> Thus far there is no technology, even in the DCU, that can repair a torn
>> spinal cord. I believe she was offered a miracle cure (magic) by Neron but
>> she turned it down, wanting to face her paralysis on her own terms.
>
>She's been offered this sort of help by more than Neron alone. Both
>Prometheus III and J'Onn J'Onzz have made offers as well. She's turned
>down all of them, from good guys as well as bad.
>
Nightwing's friend/girlfriend and Superhero info-central she must be familiar
with Vic Stone's story, and how "not fully human" he's felt on occasion.
Jason Michael
"Daibhid Chiennedelh" <daibhidc...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020604093651...@mb-ft.aol.com...
> >From: Johanna Draper Carlson joh...@comicsworthreading.com
> >Date: 04/06/02 12:44 GMT Daylight Time
> >Message-id: <johanna-FE3CD0...@news.mindspring.com>
> >
> > DCCom...@webtv.net (D.C. Comics Fan) wrote:
> >
> >> With all the science and technology in the DCU ie STAR Labs,
> >> LexCorps,etc., why wasn't Barbara Gordon's paralysis corrected?
> >
> >Because she wasn't seen as an important enough hero to have to restore.
> >Batgirl was a joke, fine to use simply as a plot device in a story
> >exploring the truly interesting, male characters.
> >
> >Oh, you wanted an in-story reason?
>
> The other part of the real-world reason is that Oracle is (IMO) about
> four-and-a-half times more interesting.
>
> Anyone know why Professor X is still in a wheelchair?
> --
Actually, as of New X-Men # 126, he has the use of his legs back.
Jason
quimico
Because. in the real world, Warner needs a token 'disabled' character,
in order to look 'PC' and modern.
George Grattan
wrote:
> DCCom...@webtv.net (D.C. Comics Fan) wrote:
>
>> With all the science and technology in the DCU ie STAR Labs,
>> LexCorps,etc., why wasn't Barbara Gordon's paralysis corrected?
>
> Because she wasn't seen as an important enough hero to have to restore.
> Batgirl was a joke, fine to use simply as a plot device in a story
> exploring the truly interesting, male characters.
In fairness, though, John Ostrander, Kim Yale, and their successors have
made "Oracle" a far more interesting character than it seems Batgirl would
ever have been allowed to become.
Now, it's entirely too disturbing that the character had to be physically
crippled in order for those creative possibilities to open up for her in the
genre.....
In response to the original poster, though, the answer isn't likely to be
satisfying on either an in-story or meta level. In story, they've danced
around the technical obstacles, Barbara's own reluctance to use them (which
has always struck me as really, really off, but maybe that's because I've
known several people who've used artificial devices to replace/assist parts
of their own bodies and who were eager to do so), and various other
impediments. But on the magical/super, super-science level, there's even
fewer compelling explanations: GL/Ion, for example, seems to be able to do
just about anything these days, and Barbara's more connected to others in
the metahuman community with similar abilities than, arguably, anyone else
on the planet.
It's the same problem Marvel's always had with Prof. X: at the end of the
day, you're left assuming that the reason the characters aren't cured is
because the writers don't want them to be, which, in-story, translates on
some level to the idea that the characters themselves don't want to be.
Shalom, Peace, Salaam,
George Grattan
gra...@rcn.com
"These are our few live seasons. Let us live them as purely as we can, in
the present."--Annie Dillard, _Pilgrim at Tinker Creek_.
M-Wolverine
> Robert Vincent wrote:
> > D.C. Comics Fan (DCCom...@webtv.net) writes:
> > > With all the science and technology in the DCU ie STAR Labs,
> > > LexCorps,etc., why wasn't Barbara Gordon's paralysis corrected? I mean
> > > come on.
> >
> > Thus far there is no technology, even in the DCU, that can repair a torn
> > spinal cord. I believe she was offered a miracle cure (magic) by Neron but
> > she turned it down, wanting to face her paralysis on her own terms.
>
> She's been offered this sort of help by more than Neron alone. Both
> Prometheus III and J'Onn J'Onzz have made offers as well. She's turned
> down all of them, from good guys as well as bad.
And considering Batman himself has had his back broken, twice....
-Chris C.
Todd
> > D.C. Comics Fan (DCCom...@webtv.net) writes:
> > > With all the science and technology in the DCU ie STAR Labs,
> > > LexCorps,etc., why wasn't Barbara Gordon's paralysis corrected? I mean
> > > come on.
> >
> > Thus far there is no technology, even in the DCU, that can repair a torn
> > spinal cord. I believe she was offered a miracle cure (magic) by Neron but
> > she turned it down, wanting to face her paralysis on her own terms.
>
> She's been offered this sort of help by more than Neron alone. Both
> Prometheus III and J'Onn J'Onzz have made offers as well. She's turned
> down all of them, from good guys as well as bad.
Well, in her defense, she does get the best parking spaces.....You
should hear Bats curse when he circles the Watchtower looking for a
spot.
Brian Doyle
"quimico" <qui...@fortalnet.com.br> wrote in message
news:3cfcca0...@News.CIS.DFN.DE...
Doesn't mean she can't be an interesting character though, and IMHO Oracle is, if too
much used as an easy storytelling cop-out to save the greatest detective in the
world, and his assorted proteges, from having to look anything up in a book/question
stoolies/ actually investigate ANYTHING.
Brian Doyle
"Robert Vincent" <du...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message
news:adhg6h$77r$1...@freenet9.carleton.ca...
> D.C. Comics Fan (DCCom...@webtv.net) writes:
> > With all the science and technology in the DCU ie STAR Labs,
> > LexCorps,etc., why wasn't Barbara Gordon's paralysis corrected? I mean
> > come on.
> >
>
> Thus far there is no technology, even in the DCU, that can repair a torn
> spinal cord.
Star Labs has the technology (Vic Stone being a case in point), so does Waynetech
IIRC (From that awful "Blind Justice" Sam Hamm story of years ago)
Oh and then there's Sondra Kinsolving. Oh wait, no she now has the mental age of a
child, and despite being the love of Bruce's life, hasn't been mentioned in about
eight years now.
And that's not counting the spellcasters.
Scott Bierworth
news:16808-3CF...@storefull-2334.public.lawson.webtv.net...
> With all the science and technology in the DCU ie STAR Labs,
> LexCorps,etc., why wasn't Barbara Gordon's paralysis corrected? I mean
> come on.
>
As soon as the technology exists in the real world so people like
Christopher Reeve can be helped I would assume DC would follow suit in the
fictional DC Universe.
stace
jwmi...@sympatico.ca wrote on 6/4/02 7:52 AM:
>> --
>
> Actually, as of New X-Men # 126, he has the use of his legs back.
> Jason
>
Always bothered me that a guy with the kind of telekinesis he has can't even
make his own legs move.
I hate being a nerd. T'would be so much easier to enjoy things if I wasn't.
stace
--
³Baseball is wrong: Man with four balls cannot walk.²*
* Lesser known Chinese philosopher, Confuseus.
stace
arro...@yellow.rahul.net wrote on 6/4/02 12:05 PM:
> In article <3CFC8C06...@ncf.ca>,
> Dwight Williams <ad...@freenet.carleton.ca> wrote:
>> She's been offered this sort of help by more than Neron alone. Both
>> Prometheus III and J'Onn J'Onzz have made offers as well. She's turned
>> down all of them, from good guys as well as bad.
>
> Why did she do this? It seems awfully dumb. I can understand not wanting
> to give Neron her soul, but really, is the off-chance that J'Onn J'Onzz will
> ask her for a favor a sensible reason not to take the offer? Being paralyzed
> isn't like being black or gay--it's something you're better off without.
As a Canadian examining America, I can say that I might choose to be
paralyzed over being black or gay.
But, that's likely a topic for another NG.
stace
--
³War does not determine who is right...war determine who is left.²*
*Lesser-known Chinese philosopher, Confuseus.
Tom Galloway
stace <st...@sk.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>Always bothered me that a guy with the kind of telekinesis he has can't even
>make his own legs move.
Why? Because the kind of telekinesis Charles Xavier has is the non-existant
type. It's Jean Grey who started out as telekinetic only and later added
telepathy to her her powers (although this has been retconned to her
telepathy having been there all along, but suppressed by Xavier due to her
having mindlinked with a friend at the moment of the friend's death
traumatizing her). Xavier was telepathy only, no telekinetics.
tyg t...@panix.com
Monica L. Tittle
>And considering Batman himself has had his back broken, twice....
Well, there is a bit of a difference between broken verterbrae and a
severed spinal cord.
Personally, I hope she's never healed. She's *way* more interesting
in the wheelchair than she would be out of it.
Monica L. Tittle (and sometimes her husband Robert!)
histo...@charter.net
I'd rather regret what I have done than wish for that
which I didn't. -Me
Monica L. Tittle
<brian...@afdigest.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>Oh and then there's Sondra Kinsolving. Oh wait, no she now has the mental age of a
>child, and despite being the love of Bruce's life, hasn't been mentioned in about
>eight years now.
And hopefully never will be again!
Monica L. Tittle
wrote:
>Because. in the real world, Warner needs a token 'disabled' character,
>in order to look 'PC' and modern.
Wasn't Barbara disabled long before DC was bought by Warner.
Dan
>From: DCCom...@webtv.net (D.C. Comics Fan)
>Date: 6/3/02 10:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <16808-3CF...@storefull-2334.public.lawson.webtv.net>
>
>With all the science and technology in the DCU ie STAR Labs,
>LexCorps,etc., why wasn't Barbara Gordon's paralysis corrected? I mean
>come on.
With all the science and technology in the DCU, do you really think the world
would remotely resemble the real world?
Dan
aa #1617
apatriot #14
2nd Class Citizen
Dan
>From: daibhidc...@aol.com (Daibhid Chiennedelh)
>Date: 6/4/02 9:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <20020604093953...@mb-ft.aol.com>
>
>>From: ad...@freenet.carleton.ca (Dwight Williams)
>>Date: 04/06/02 10:44 GMT Daylight Time
>>Message-id: <3CFC8C06...@ncf.ca>
>>
>>Robert Vincent wrote:
>>> D.C. Comics Fan (DCCom...@webtv.net) writes:
>>> > With all the science and technology in the DCU ie STAR Labs,
>>> > LexCorps,etc., why wasn't Barbara Gordon's paralysis corrected? I mean
>>> > come on.
>>>
>>> Thus far there is no technology, even in the DCU, that can repair a torn
>>> spinal cord. I believe she was offered a miracle cure (magic) by Neron but
>>> she turned it down, wanting to face her paralysis on her own terms.
>>
>>She's been offered this sort of help by more than Neron alone. Both
>>Prometheus III and J'Onn J'Onzz have made offers as well. She's turned
>>down all of them, from good guys as well as bad.
>>
>IIRC, her comment to J'Onn is "I have little interest in being half robot".
>As
>Nightwing's friend/girlfriend and Superhero info-central she must be familiar
>with Vic Stone's story, and how "not fully human" he's felt on occasion.
That's a pathetic answer. She'd hardly have to be "half-robot" to have her
spinal cord fixed. Her spinal cord could be replaced or fixed with something
synthetic or with nanotech.
Dan
>Date: 6/4/02 3:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <3cfd1bd7...@news.charter.net>
>
>On 4 Jun 2002 07:53:24 -0700, ch...@pnc-wbi.com (M-Wolverine) wrote:
>
>>And considering Batman himself has had his back broken, twice....
>
>Well, there is a bit of a difference between broken verterbrae and a
>severed spinal cord.
>
>Personally, I hope she's never healed. She's *way* more interesting
>in the wheelchair than she would be out of it.
I disagree. She's way more interesting as Oracle than as Batgirl. There's
nothing preventing her from being Oracle and walking.
Dan
>Date: 6/4/02 2:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <B92267C5.A0CF%st...@sk.sympatico.ca>
>
>in article adivh9$sab$1...@samba.rahul.net, Ken Arromdee at
>arro...@yellow.rahul.net wrote on 6/4/02 12:05 PM:
>
>> In article <3CFC8C06...@ncf.ca>,
>> Dwight Williams <ad...@freenet.carleton.ca> wrote:
>>> She's been offered this sort of help by more than Neron alone. Both
>>> Prometheus III and J'Onn J'Onzz have made offers as well. She's turned
>>> down all of them, from good guys as well as bad.
>>
>> Why did she do this? It seems awfully dumb. I can understand not wanting
>> to give Neron her soul, but really, is the off-chance that J'Onn J'Onzz
>will
>> ask her for a favor a sensible reason not to take the offer? Being
>paralyzed
>> isn't like being black or gay--it's something you're better off without.
>As a Canadian examining America, I can say that I might choose to be
>paralyzed over being black or gay.
Except these are not things to be chosen. Personally, I wouldn't choose to be
any different than I am.
>But, that's likely a topic for another NG.
Probably shouldn't have brought it up then.
Dan
>Message-id: <johanna-FE3CD0...@news.mindspring.com>
>
> DCCom...@webtv.net (D.C. Comics Fan) wrote:
>
>> With all the science and technology in the DCU ie STAR Labs,
>> LexCorps,etc., why wasn't Barbara Gordon's paralysis corrected?
>
>Because she wasn't seen as an important enough hero to have to restore.
>Batgirl was a joke, fine to use simply as a plot device in a story
>exploring the truly interesting, male characters.
>
>Oh, you wanted an in-story reason?
Johanna, that doesn't even make sense as an out of story reason. Barbara
Gordon could serve as Oracle just as well if she were healed.
Dan
>Date: 6/4/02 9:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <20020604093651...@mb-ft.aol.com>
>Anyone know why Professor X is still in a wheelchair?
He was cloned but somehow or other his back was broken again. It's apparently
fixed as of the most recent issues of New X-Men.
Dan
>Date: 6/4/02 2:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <B92266F5.A0CD%st...@sk.sympatico.ca>
>
>in article vC3L8.6752$LR4.9...@news20.bellglobal.com, Jason Michael at
>jwmi...@sympatico.ca wrote on 6/4/02 7:52 AM:
>
>>> --
>>
>> Actually, as of New X-Men # 126, he has the use of his legs back.
>> Jason
>>
>
>
>Always bothered me that a guy with the kind of telekinesis he has can't even
>make his own legs move.
He doesn't have telekinesis. He has telepathy. He reads minds. Not much use
for moving the legs.
Dan
>Message-id: <3cfd1d2e...@news.charter.net>
>
>On Tue, 04 Jun 2002 14:11:01 GMT, qui...@fortalnet.com.br (quimico)
>wrote:
>
>>Because. in the real world, Warner needs a token 'disabled' character,
>>in order to look 'PC' and modern.
>
>Wasn't Barbara disabled long before DC was bought by Warner.
Considering Warner has owned DC for decades, I'd have to say no.
Aaron Moss
Daibhid Chiennedelh wrote:
> >From: Johanna Draper Carlson joh...@comicsworthreading.com
> >Date: 04/06/02 12:44 GMT Daylight Time
> >Message-id: <johanna-FE3CD0...@news.mindspring.com>
> >
> > DCCom...@webtv.net (D.C. Comics Fan) wrote:
> >
> >> With all the science and technology in the DCU ie STAR Labs,
> >> LexCorps,etc., why wasn't Barbara Gordon's paralysis corrected?
> >
> >Because she wasn't seen as an important enough hero to have to restore.
> >Batgirl was a joke, fine to use simply as a plot device in a story
> >exploring the truly interesting, male characters.
> >
> >Oh, you wanted an in-story reason?
>
> The other part of the real-world reason is that Oracle is (IMO) about
> four-and-a-half times more interesting.
>
> Anyone know why Professor X is still in a wheelchair?
> --
Because he wasn't seen as an important enough hero to have to restore.
XaviarMan was a joke, fine to use simply as a plot device in a story
exploring the truly interesting, haired characters.
oh err wait a minute. I guess that only works with female characters.
eheh
Aaron Moss
http://brotherhead.net
thebr...@brotherhead.net
***
"I need to get some chicken in me!!" Comic guy - 'UNBREAKABLE'
"HEY!! I always notice that bored look!" Banky - 'CHASING AMY'
Mathew Krull
>With all the science and technology in the DCU ie STAR Labs,
>LexCorps,etc., why wasn't Barbara Gordon's paralysis corrected? I mean
>come on.
>
People are always complaining that there is no real change in comics.
I've seen many posts complaining that comic characters always get
returned to the status quo eventually, so why do they even bother
changing them.
And then Oracle comes up. It seems we as fans want it both ways. We
want our characters to age, grow, and change with time. We want lasting
effects. But not in this case, for some reason. Here we have a perfect
example of a permanent change to a character, and all anybody seems to
want is to turn back the clock.
I just don't get it.
--
My name is not misspelled.
Dwight Williams
>
> On Tue, 04 Jun 2002 14:11:01 GMT, qui...@fortalnet.com.br (quimico)
> wrote:
>
> >Because. in the real world, Warner needs a token 'disabled' character,
> >in order to look 'PC' and modern.
>
> Wasn't Barbara disabled long before DC was bought by Warner.
No.
--
Dwight Williams - Orleans(Ottawa), ON, Canada
Personal Homesite: http://www.ncf.ca/~ad696/
*I* own my Usenet postings, not some archival service!
Dwight Williams
>
> >From: ad...@freenet.carleton.ca (Dwight Williams)
> >Date: 04/06/02 10:44 GMT Daylight Time
> >Message-id: <3CFC8C06...@ncf.ca>
> >
> >Robert Vincent wrote:
> >> D.C. Comics Fan (DCCom...@webtv.net) writes:
> >> > LexCorps,etc., why wasn't Barbara Gordon's paralysis corrected? I mean
> >> > come on.
> >>
> >> spinal cord. I believe she was offered a miracle cure (magic) by Neron but
> >> she turned it down, wanting to face her paralysis on her own terms.
> >
> >Prometheus III and J'Onn J'Onzz have made offers as well. She's turned
> >down all of them, from good guys as well as bad.
> >
> Nightwing's friend/girlfriend and Superhero info-central she must be familiar
> with Vic Stone's story, and how "not fully human" he's felt on occasion.
Vic Stone, Cliff Steele, Robert Crane, Hank Henshaw...take your pick.
:-)
quimico
I seem to recall that he did use telekynesis.. when possessed by the brood.
Dan
>Date: 6/4/02 7:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <3cfd4fed...@News.CIS.DFN.DE>
Nope. There were early X-Men stories that occasionally had him do unusual
things, like TK, but they were retconned away.
Kory Anders
Except then people will want her back as Batgirl, so Oracle will get
left behind, and she'll become the second rate character she tended to
be before Killing Joke.
Johanna Draper Carlson
> In fairness, though, John Ostrander, Kim Yale, and their successors have
> made "Oracle" a far more interesting character than it seems Batgirl would
> ever have been allowed to become.
Certainly, and I adore the work they did with her. But how long passed
before they were able to "recover" her?
The Yale/Ostrander story where Barbara lets Batman have it for laughing
at her life being destroyed resonates all too well, I fear, with women,
and other groups, who are used to being ignored.
> on the magical/super, super-science level, there's even
> fewer compelling explanations:
I think what keeps people asking about this particular case is that it's
so directly parallel. It's rare in comics that the same major life
change (that isn't part of the origin) happens to two members of the
same character family, and thus it becomes more obvious that the
treatment and result were so different.
> GL/Ion, for example, seems to be able to do just about anything these days
Another parallel, since he convinced John Stewart he just needed to
think himself out of his wheelchair.
--
Johanna Draper Carlson joh...@comicsworthreading.com
Reviews of Comics Worth Reading -- http://www.comicsworthreading.com
Newly updated: 30 Days of Night, Call of Duty: Brotherhood, Filth, FF,
Thing: Freakshow, Guardian Angel, Legion, TheNorm, XXXLiveNudeGirls
Johanna Draper Carlson
> no...the defensive female knee-jerk reason is good too :)
No, no, Barbara's knees *can't* jerk -- that's what we're discussing. :)
Johanna Draper Carlson
> And then Oracle comes up. It seems we as fans want it both ways. We
> want our characters to age, grow, and change with time. We want lasting
> effects. But not in this case, for some reason.
Oh, I don't want Barbara back as Batgirl -- I think Oracle is a terrific
character. However, that doesn't change that the treatment for Batgirl
was very different from the treatment for Batman.
> I just don't get it.
In general, people want bad changes reversed, and good changes kept. The
problem is, opinions of good and bad changes differ. We all (or most)
manage to agree on only some.
Patrick Thompson
news:20020604163907...@mb-cj.aol.com...
Alright, maybe it would have been more accurate to say "5% robot." Either
way, a synthetic or nanotech implant would make her a low-level cyborg, by
virtue of having a cybernetic element. She's clearly not comfortable with
that, perhaps becuase of her relationship with Batman, who is very forceful
in his desire to not augment his abilities through artificial means (such as
drugs or giving himself superpowers). If she were a real person instead of
a fictional character, she would certainly have the perogative to refuse a
cybernetic implant, just like many deaf people have refused cochlear
implants. There's no reason she wouldn't have the same right in the DCU.
stace
dannyb...@aol.comnospam wrote on 6/4/02 2:41 PM:
>
>> As a Canadian examining America, I can say that I might choose to be
>> paralyzed over being black or gay.
>
> Except these are not things to be chosen. Personally, I wouldn't choose to be
> any different than I am.
>
>> But, that's likely a topic for another NG.
>
> Probably shouldn't have brought it up then.
>
Well Seig Heil, pally.
Prestorjon
four-and-a-half times more interesting.
Anyone know why Professor X is still in a wheelchair?>>
Actually IIRc the last issue of New Xmen ends with him standing up. They
pinball back and forth between having him able to wlak and having him in the
chair. I think it's mainly authorial/editorial preference.
-----------------
He had been our Destroyer, the doer of things
We dreamed of doing but could not bring ourselves to do,
The fears of years, like a biting whip,
Had cut deep bloody grooves
Across our backs.
-Etheridge Knight
Prestorjon
>make his own legs move.
>
You're not that nerdy. Proffesor X is a pwerful telePATH not teleKINETIC.
Prestorjon
day, you're left assuming that the reason the characters aren't cured is
because the writers don't want them to be, which, in-story, translates on
some level to the idea that the characters themselves don't want to be.>>
Well until fairly recently Proffesor X maintained a public persona which was
seperate from the world of superheroics. He was a world renowned geneticist,
an advocate of mutatn rights, and a favorite talking head of news agencies but
he wasn't known to be a mutant or to have close ties with the superhuman
community. As such it might arouse some suspicion if he started showing up at
public functions walking unaided.
Les Bonser
On 6/4/02 7:53 AM, in article
86ac6ac0.02060...@posting.google.com, "M-Wolverine"
<ch...@pnc-wbi.com> wrote:
> ad...@freenet.carleton.ca (Dwight Williams) wrote in message
> news:<3CFC8C06...@ncf.ca>...
>> Robert Vincent wrote:
>>> D.C. Comics Fan (DCCom...@webtv.net) writes:
>>>> With all the science and technology in the DCU ie STAR Labs,
>>>> LexCorps,etc., why wasn't Barbara Gordon's paralysis corrected? I mean
>>>> come on.
>>>
>>> Thus far there is no technology, even in the DCU, that can repair a torn
>>> spinal cord. I believe she was offered a miracle cure (magic) by Neron but
>>> she turned it down, wanting to face her paralysis on her own terms.
>>
>> She's been offered this sort of help by more than Neron alone. Both
>> Prometheus III and J'Onn J'Onzz have made offers as well. She's turned
>> down all of them, from good guys as well as bad.
>
> And considering Batman himself has had his back broken, twice....
>
> -Chris C.
Les Bonser
On 6/4/02 11:45 AM, in article B92266F5.A0CD%st...@sk.sympatico.ca, "stace"
<st...@sk.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> in article vC3L8.6752$LR4.9...@news20.bellglobal.com, Jason Michael at
> jwmi...@sympatico.ca wrote on 6/4/02 7:52 AM:
>
>>> --
>>
>> Actually, as of New X-Men # 126, he has the use of his legs back.
>> Jason
>>
>
>
> Always bothered me that a guy with the kind of telekinesis he has can't even
> make his own legs move.
>
> I hate being a nerd. T'would be so much easier to enjoy things if I wasn't.
>
>
> stace
Aaron Hazouri
>is, if too
>much used as an easy storytelling cop-out to save the greatest detective in
>the
>world, and his assorted proteges, from having to look anything up in a
>book/question
>stoolies/ actually investigate ANYTHING.
I think she IS overused -- I miss the days when the Darknight Detective
actually did detective work. And talked to people... and had friends... and
occasionally smiled.. etc etc..
-Aaron!
--------------------
In Memory of
Chuck Jones
1912--2002
Aaron Hazouri
>> And then Oracle comes up. It seems we as fans want it both ways. We
>> want our characters to age, grow, and change with time. We want lasting
>> effects. But not in this case, for some reason.
>
>Oh, I don't want Barbara back as Batgirl -- I think Oracle is a terrific
>character. However, that doesn't change that the treatment for Batgirl
>was very different from the treatment for Batman.
Well, I don't think I'm shocking anyone by saying that Batman is Batman, and
Batgirl is strictly supporting cast. It's like killing one of the Robins, or
getting rid of Commissioner Gordon, or killing off one of Bruce Wayne's
girlfriends.
Personally I think they paralyzed her just because Killing Joke was such a
good story, they didn't want to contradict any of it by having her walking
around again.
-Aaron
Dan
>Date: 6/4/02 8:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <f5lqfuc7alkocng6i...@4ax.com>
>
>>Johanna, that doesn't even make sense as an out of story reason. Barbara
>>Gordon could serve as Oracle just as well if she were healed.
>
>Except then people will want her back as Batgirl, so Oracle will get
>left behind, and she'll become the second rate character she tended to
>be before Killing Joke.
Doesn't have to be like that. Most characters who work with computers are
able-bodied.
Dan
>Date: 6/4/02 8:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <B922BD61.A22F%st...@sk.sympatico.ca>
My point was, don't bring something up if you don't want to talk about it. If
anyone's the Nazi, it's you for your obvious homophobia.
BHMarks
>Alright, maybe it would have been more accurate to say "5% robot." Either
>way, a synthetic or nanotech implant would make her a low-level cyborg, by
>virtue of having a cybernetic element. She's clearly not comfortable with
>that, perhaps becuase of her relationship with Batman, who is very forceful
>in his desire to not augment his abilities through artificial means (such as
>drugs or giving himself superpowers). If she were a real person instead of
>a fictional character, she would certainly have the perogative to refuse a
>cybernetic implant, just like many deaf people have refused cochlear
>implants. There's no reason she wouldn't have the same right in the DCU.
Ought to give up the glasses, too.
As ever,
Bennet
Hal Shipman
>>>> As a Canadian examining America, I can say that I might choose to be
>>>> paralyzed over being black or gay.
>>>
>>> Except these are not things to be chosen. Personally, I wouldn't choose to
>>be
>>> any different than I am.
>>>
>>>> But, that's likely a topic for another NG.
>>>
>>> Probably shouldn't have brought it up then.
>>>
>>
>>Well Seig Heil, pally.
>
>My point was, don't bring something up if you don't want to talk about it. If
>anyone's the Nazi, it's you for your obvious homophobia.
I read stace's comment as an observation of American homophobia.
i.s. If such things were a matter of choice, being paralyzed might be
a preferable choice considering how much more poorly blacks and gays
are regarded and treated.
ObDCU: I think that Oracle is a much more interesting character than
Batgirl every was. There are a couple of reasons for that, I believe,
including the talent of the writers in dealing with the character
(though not Dixon). Keeping her in the wheelchair maintains an
element of tragedy that might be lost or at least rendered meaningless
otherwise.
That being said, within the reality of the DCU, I think it is
absolutely ridiculous that she hasn't been healed yet.
Hal.
Vote in the 2001 Bizarro Squiddies!
Polls are now open.
Get yourself a ballot in rec.arts.comics.misc,
www.bizarrosquiddies.org or by dropping me an email
request.
Questions? ques...@bizarrosquiddies.org
Kory Anders
Except it tends to go that way. When something like a broken back or
loss of powers happen, the story arc tends to end with the character
back to normal, and many people seem to follow 'Heal Barbara' with
'Bring back the original Batgirl' after some time. If she's healed,
more than likely she'll go back to being forgetable supporting cast.
And, though most people will sneer and label it PC, as someone who
spent time in a wheelchair after a bad accident, I like seeing a hero
who deals with the problems I've dealt with and isn't stopped by them.
Pluto \(M\) ³
"Dan" <dannyb...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
> >Subject: Re: Why wasn't Barbara Gordon healed?
> >Message-id: <3cfd1bd7...@news.charter.net>
> >
> >On 4 Jun 2002 07:53:24 -0700, ch...@pnc-wbi.com (M-Wolverine) wrote:
> >
> >>And considering Batman himself has had his back broken, twice....
> >
> >severed spinal cord.
> >
> >Personally, I hope she's never healed. She's *way* more interesting
> >in the wheelchair than she would be out of it.
>
> I disagree. She's way more interesting as Oracle than as Batgirl. There's
> nothing preventing her from being Oracle and walking.
You honestly think she wouldn't go right back to being Batgirl if she could?
Paul "Duggy" Duggan
>Now, it's entirely too disturbing that the character had to be physically
>crippled in order for those creative possibilities to open up for her in the
>genre.....
I've felt for a while that if she ever stopped being Oracle that a
full-abled Tim Drake would be the perfect replacement for her:
- He has computer/detective history.
- It would point out the Oracle is an important role and not just a job
for the disabled.
===
= DUG.
===
Brian Doyle
"Aaron Hazouri" <aaro...@aol.combizarro> wrote in message
news:20020604222524...@mb-bk.aol.com...
> >Doesn't mean she can't be an interesting character though, and IMHO
Oracle
> >is, if too
> >much used as an easy storytelling cop-out to save the greatest detective
in
> >the
> >world, and his assorted proteges, from having to look anything up in a
> >book/question
> >stoolies/ actually investigate ANYTHING.
>
> I think she IS overused -- I miss the days when the Darknight Detective
> actually did detective work. And talked to people... and had friends...
and
> occasionally smiled.. etc etc..
Good God man, what are you? Some kind of throwback?! :)
(Well, if that's the case drag my knuckles across the floor, because I'm one
too!)
David Blocher
"Pluto (M) ł" <plu...@nospam.flash.net> wrote in message
news:9EgL8.2098$U_5.74...@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com...
I seriously doubt it, since there is already a Batgirl in the name of
Cassandra Cain.
She would probably be "Batwoman" if she becomes "Bat-Anything" because she
is
getting a tad too old to be called "___ Girl". She would probably remain as
Oracle
and play as an adviser to Batgirl while she is still in her developing
stages!
George Grattan
wrote:
> George Grattan <gra...@rcn.com> wrote:
>
>> In fairness, though, John Ostrander, Kim Yale, and their successors have
>> made "Oracle" a far more interesting character than it seems Batgirl would
>> ever have been allowed to become.
>
> Certainly, and I adore the work they did with her. But how long passed
> before they were able to "recover" her?
Good question. I don't know, really, how much time elapsed between "The
Killing Joke" and their introduction of Oracle in "Suicide Squad"--
certainly it was a few years, but it didn't seem *that* long.
>
> The Yale/Ostrander story where Barbara lets Batman have it for laughing
> at her life being destroyed resonates all too well, I fear, with women,
> and other groups, who are used to being ignored.
And it's certainly a feature of this genre, as well, that female characters
are maimed, killed, de-powered, or otherwise sent more or less off-stage
with greater regularity than male characters, yes. One of the paradoxes of
the Oracle character, though, is that she's a great character in addition to
being born through that lamentable process. I'm struck by what someone else
in the thread has pointed out: there's no reason she couldn't be cured of
her paralysis and remain active as Oracle, and that's something I think I'd
like to see, if handled by the right writer: a character who chooses to use
her skills in the way that she feels she can do the most good.
>
>> on the magical/super, super-science level, there's even
>> fewer compelling explanations:
>
> I think what keeps people asking about this particular case is that it's
> so directly parallel.
To Batman's (twice?) broken back? Yes- the parallels are there, though, as
someone else has observed, there's a difference between broken vertebrae and
a broken spinal cord.
>It's rare in comics that the same major life
> change (that isn't part of the origin) happens to two members of the
> same character family, and thus it becomes more obvious that the
> treatment and result were so different.
>
>> GL/Ion, for example, seems to be able to do just about anything these days
>
> Another parallel, since he convinced John Stewart he just needed to
> think himself out of his wheelchair.
Right. I must confess, as a longtime fan of Jade, I was happy to have her
powers restored by any means, and even though Kyle was the agent of that
restoration, I far prefer that to her wearing a ring he's given her.
Shalom, Peace, Salaam,
George Grattan
gra...@rcn.com
"These are our few live seasons. Let us live them as purely as we can, in
the present."--Annie Dillard, _Pilgrim at Tinker Creek_.
George Grattan
> Personally I think they paralyzed her just because Killing Joke was such a
> good story, they didn't want to contradict any of it by having her walking
> around again.
How would curing her paralysis "contradict" anything in "The Killing Joke"?
George Grattan
I do, yes, and I think that characterization would be consistent with the
way she's been developed over the past several years. She's commented on
more than one occasion about the realization that she's been able to do
"more" good as Oracle than she ever did as a costumed adventurer herself.
She might, of course, pull on some kind of spandex from time to time as each
case may require, but I'd have *no* problem seeing her decide not to become
Batgirl again.
Heh. Of course, if Helena Bertinelli were suddenly to meet an untimely end
(or at least be institutionalized as she should be), I'd be perfectly happy
for Babs to take up the Huntress identity. :-)
George Grattan
Tim would make a great Oracle 2-- and it would track with his own
understanding that, someday, he'll probably hang up the cape when he feels
the time is right.
(Hmm... *this* tracks into my idea of having Babs take over the Huntress
role, too....:-) )
Woody
and stand on his 2 legs.
it was pretty obvious in xmen 280, when his back was broken again, that it
was done only for the sake of nostalgia (but now, those days when he could
walk again are so far, that they have become themseves nostalgia... go
figure)
woody
"Prestorjon" <prest...@aol.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
20020604212520...@mb-fw.aol.com...
Dswynne
>paralyzed over being black or gay.
>
>
>
I am a Black American, and I take exception to this remark! If I recall
Canadian history, weren't there segregated buses in certain parts of Canada at
one point in time?
"In the end, there can be only one, and it may as well be me!"-Kenny (from
Highlander: The Series)
Dswynne
>would remotely resemble the real world?
No, it'll look like the world in "Promethea" and the other ABC comics line...
>Dan
>aa #1617
>apatriot #14
>2nd Class Citizen
>
"In the end, there can be only one, and it may as well be me!"-Kenny (from
Highlander: The Series)
Daibhid Chiennedelh
>Date: 05/06/02 13:57 GMT Daylight Time
>Message-id: <B9238311.1A397%gra...@rcn.com>
*Or* ahe could get a real version of her digitised Delphi mask, design a
constume to match, and Oracle could be a costumed adventurer, as well as
data-central.
In addition, this means that occasionally folks other than Tim would have to
look stuff up for themselves, when they get her answering machine. (Actually,
why doesn't that happen more often? She's not a Bruce-level obsessive, and
being disabled doesn't mean you never leave the house.)
There's also the question of where that leaves BoP, which could be
interesting...
--
Dave
Re-elected for a *third* glorious term as Official Absentee of EU
Skiffeysoc http://www.eusa.ed.ac.uk/societies/sesoc
"Doctor, is that you?"
"Let's pretend it isn't, and see what happens."
Doctor Who: All Consuming Fire, Andy Lane
Daibhid Chiennedelh
>Date: 05/06/02 14:42 GMT Daylight Time
>Message-id: <20020605094227...@mb-cs.aol.com>
>
>>With all the science and technology in the DCU, do you really think the
>world
>>would remotely resemble the real world?
>
>No, it'll look like the world in "Promethea" and the other ABC comics line...
On that subject, I missed quite a few issues of Starman (100 miles from comic
shop), but whatever happened to Ted Knight's plan to turn cosmic energy into a
viable power source? Starman 1Million said he would suceed. Since he's dead, if
he was going to suceed, he must have done so. So where is it?
As well ask why Metropolis's flying cars never leave the city, I suppose...
Brian Doyle
"Paul "Duggy" Duggan" <jc12...@jcu.edu.au> wrote in message
news:Pine.OSF.4.21.02060...@marlin.jcu.edu.au...
Agreed, Tim was depicted as being very much a nerd-level keyboard- jockey in
his introduction, but Oracle renders that irrelevant, and she does the same
for the research and background work that it was implied Tim also excelled
at (A different kind of Robin, who doesn't automatically assume that he will
be on patrols etc. Now he's another teenage ninja)
Brian Doyle
"George Grattan" <gra...@rcn.com> wrote in message
news:B923812A.1A395%gra...@rcn.com...
> on 6/4/02 8:21 PM, Johanna Draper Carlson at
joh...@comicsworthreading.com
> wrote:
>
> > George Grattan <gra...@rcn.com> wrote:
> >
> >> In fairness, though, John Ostrander, Kim Yale, and their successors
have
> >> made "Oracle" a far more interesting character than it seems Batgirl
would
> >> ever have been allowed to become.
> >
> > Certainly, and I adore the work they did with her. But how long passed
> > before they were able to "recover" her?
>
> Good question. I don't know, really, how much time elapsed between "The
> Killing Joke" and their introduction of Oracle in "Suicide Squad"--
> certainly it was a few years, but it didn't seem *that* long.
Real time, several years, actual DC time, over a year, but not much. There's
a Batman Chronicles which relates the time between the shooting and her
creation fo the Orcale persona.
It includes a marvellously bitter moment when Bab's is visited in her
hospital bed by Batman and she points out that she'd heard the Joker had
just been caught, but that he and Batman had both been laughing over some
joke (as at the end of "The Killing Joke")
"So tell me, was it me?"
She has a point!
Brian Doyle
"Kory Anders" <kori...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:434rfu4cs7t4nat3q...@4ax.com...
> On 05 Jun 2002 03:04:54 GMT, dannyb...@aol.comnospam (Dan) wrote:
>
> >>Subject: Re: Why wasn't Barbara Gordon healed?
> >>From: Kory Anders kori...@hotmail.com
> >>Date: 6/4/02 8:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time
> >>Message-id: <f5lqfuc7alkocng6i...@4ax.com>
> >>
> >
> >>>Johanna, that doesn't even make sense as an out of story reason.
Barbara
> >>>Gordon could serve as Oracle just as well if she were healed.
> >>
> >>Except then people will want her back as Batgirl, so Oracle will get
> >>left behind, and she'll become the second rate character she tended to
> >>be before Killing Joke.
> >
> >Doesn't have to be like that. Most characters who work with computers
are
> >able-bodied.
>
> Except it tends to go that way. When something like a broken back or
> loss of powers happen, the story arc tends to end with the character
> back to normal, and many people seem to follow 'Heal Barbara' with
> 'Bring back the original Batgirl' after some time. If she's healed,
> more than likely she'll go back to being forgetable supporting cast.
IIRC she'd already quit as Batgirl by the time Killing Joke came along....
She was seen as being a bit of a distraction from the focus on "dark and
gritty" Batman and "street punk soon to be corpse" Robin.
Brian Doyle
"Daibhid Chiennedelh" <daibhidc...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020605111135...@mb-ci.aol.com...
> >From: dsw...@aol.com (Dswynne)
> >Date: 05/06/02 14:42 GMT Daylight Time
> >Message-id: <20020605094227...@mb-cs.aol.com>
> >
> >>With all the science and technology in the DCU, do you really think the
> >world
> >>would remotely resemble the real world?
> >
> >No, it'll look like the world in "Promethea" and the other ABC comics
line...
>
> On that subject, I missed quite a few issues of Starman (100 miles from
comic
> shop), but whatever happened to Ted Knight's plan to turn cosmic energy
into a
> viable power source? Starman 1Million said he would suceed. Since he's
dead, if
> he was going to suceed, he must have done so. So where is it?
He'd left many notes and patents in place when he died, it could be the
actual process will be developed by someone else using Ted's research and he
will gain suitable credit for doing so, it's common enough in science.
Modern developments of gravtation still owe much to Newton, and realtivity
to Einstein etc.
> As well ask why Metropolis's flying cars never leave the city, I
suppose...
Same reason you can't ride a dodgem car off the stand...Energy induction
loop only extends to city perimeters?
Brian Doyle
> on 6/4/02 10:24 PM, Aaron Hazouri at aaro...@aol.combizarro wrote:
>
>
> > Personally I think they paralyzed her just because Killing Joke was such
a
> > good story, they didn't want to contradict any of it by having her
walking
> > around again.
>
> How would curing her paralysis "contradict" anything in "The Killing
Joke"?
I think Aaron meant it in the sense of it lessening the impact of Killing
Joke, like say, reviving Jean Grey would lessen X-Men 137 (And they'd never
do that, would they...?)
Having Babs shot in the spine and then walking arounda little while later
would lessen the tragedy of what happened.
Aaron Hazouri
>his introduction, but Oracle renders that irrelevant, and she does the same
>for the research and background work that it was implied Tim also excelled
>at (A different kind of Robin, who doesn't automatically assume that he will
>be on patrols etc. Now he's another teenage ninja)
How neat it would have been to have the Batman out and about fighting crime,
with the Boy Wonder back at the cave doing legwork... or the two splitting up,
Robin handling part of an investigation, Batman handling another part -- and
meeting at the cave, going over the facts...
I wonder at what point the "dark and moody" aspect took the place of Batman
having any kind of character.
-Aaron!
--------------------
I nervously point you to my website,
full of ugly art but I need the criticism
http://hometown.aol.com/aaronmojo/
Aaron Hazouri
>Joke, like say, reviving Jean Grey would lessen X-Men 137 (And they'd never
>do that, would they...?)
>
>Having Babs shot in the spine and then walking arounda little while later
>would lessen the tragedy of what happened.
Exactly, and eventually enough time went by -- and fan reaction was strong
enough -- that DC found themselves in a position of not being able to "cure"
her without ticking a bunch of people off, and seeing no real pressing in-story
reason to do so, anyway.
-Aaron
Pluto \(M\) ³
"David Blocher" <bloc...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:pBkL8.113989$ux5.1...@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net...
>
> "Pluto (M) ³" <plu...@nospam.flash.net> wrote in message
Never stopped Power Girl.
jayembee
>> Personally, I hope she's never healed. She's *way* more
>> interesting in the wheelchair than she would be out of it.
> I disagree. She's way more interesting as Oracle than as
> Batgirl. There's nothing preventing her from being Oracle
> and walking.
So what would be the point? I know, I know, the ability to
walk would be the point. But there's nothing inherent in
Babs's "job" as Oracle that requires her to walk. And as
she is now, she's a role model for chair-bound readers,
showing that she can contribute -- and indeed, is a major
asset to the crimefighting community -- while being in a
wheelchair.
-- jayembee
jayembee
> In fairness, though, John Ostrander, Kim Yale, and their
> successors have made "Oracle" a far more interesting
> character than it seems Batgirl would ever have been
> allowed to become.
> Now, it's entirely too disturbing that the character had
> to be physically crippled in order for those creative
> possibilities to open up for her in the genre.....
But look at the upside. At least she wasn't killed off,
like Supergirl was.
-- jayembee
jayembee
> The Yale/Ostrander story where Barbara lets Batman have it
> for laughing at her life being destroyed resonates all too
> well, I fear, with women, and other groups, who are used to
> being ignored.
Except that he never did "laugh at her life being destroyed".
She heard that when Batman finally caught up with the Joker
after she was shot, that he and the Joker were seen laughing
together. She had absolutely no idea what they were laughing
about, and in fact, in her confrontation with Batman, she
even *asks* him if that's what the joke was about.
But we, as readers of THE KILLING JOKE, *know* that the laughter
had *nothing* to do with what happened to Barbara. But like all
good urban legends, it continues to claimed that it did.
-- jayembee
David Blocher
> > > You honestly think she wouldn't go right back to being Batgirl if she
> > could?
> >
> > I seriously doubt it, since there is already a Batgirl in the name of
> > Cassandra Cain.
> > She would probably be "Batwoman" if she becomes "Bat-Anything" because
she
> > is
> > getting a tad too old to be called "___ Girl".
>
> Never stopped Power Girl.
Just how old is Power Girl? I always thought of her being about the age of
Supergirl.
stace
dannyb...@aol.comnospam wrote on 6/4/02 9:07 PM:
>> Subject: Re: Why wasn't Barbara Gordon healed?
>> From: stace st...@sk.sympatico.ca
>> Date: 6/4/02 8:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>> Message-id: <B922BD61.A22F%st...@sk.sympatico.ca>
>>
>> in article 20020604164133...@mb-cj.aol.com, Dan at
>> dannyb...@aol.comnospam wrote on 6/4/02 2:41 PM:
>>
>>>
>>>> As a Canadian examining America, I can say that I might choose to be
>>>> paralyzed over being black or gay.
>>>
>>> Except these are not things to be chosen. Personally, I wouldn't choose to
>> be
>>> any different than I am.
>>>
>>>> But, that's likely a topic for another NG.
>>>
>>> Probably shouldn't have brought it up then.
>>>
>>
>> Well Seig Heil, pally.
>
> My point was, don't bring something up if you don't want to talk about it. If
> anyone's the Nazi, it's you for your obvious homophobia.
> Dan
Yer pretty thick for someone who likes to read.
My point was, that I would like to talk about it more but that since it's
likely considered way off topic for this NG, I'd better stop now for the
courtesy of others.
Obvious homophobia?
You really are a bag of hammers, pal.
My observation is based on the fact that in the USA, hate groups don't exist
to kill paraplegics, but they do exist to kill homosexuals and blacks.
Hence, my reasoning to choose being paraplegic over being a minority or gay.
Pretty sad country you live in, buddy, when people are ready to kill over
the color of skin.
stace
--
³War does not determine who is right...war determine who is left.²*
*Lesser-known Chinese philosopher, Confuseus.
stace
ad...@bizarrosquiddies.org wrote on 6/4/02 10:18 PM:
>>
>> My point was, don't bring something up if you don't want to talk about it.
>> If
>> anyone's the Nazi, it's you for your obvious homophobia.
>
> I read stace's comment as an observation of American homophobia.
>
> i.s. If such things were a matter of choice, being paralyzed might be
> a preferable choice considering how much more poorly blacks and gays
> are regarded and treated.
Thanks for the affirmation! At least I got through to one person. :)
>
> Hal.
>
> Vote in the 2001 Bizarro Squiddies!
> Polls are now open.
> Get yourself a ballot in rec.arts.comics.misc,
> www.bizarrosquiddies.org or by dropping me an email
> request.
> Questions? ques...@bizarrosquiddies.org
quimico
>Except it tends to go that way. When something like a broken back or
>loss of powers happen, the story arc tends to end with the character
>back to normal, and many people seem to follow 'Heal Barbara' with
>'Bring back the original Batgirl' after some time. If she's healed,
>more than likely she'll go back to being forgetable supporting cast.
Now she is the DC copy of Marvel's 'Scotty', Jessica Drew's secretary...
stace
dsw...@aol.com wrote on 6/5/02 7:39 AM:
>> As a Canadian examining America, I can say that I might choose to be
>> paralyzed over being black or gay.
>>
>> But, that's likely a topic for another NG.
>>
>>
>> stace
>
> I am a Black American, and I take exception to this remark! If I recall
> Canadian history, weren't there segregated buses in certain parts of Canada at
> one point in time?
>
Take offense all you want, though I'm not too sure about your comment. May
be true, may not be. I intend to research it, though..
Everywhere has a past.
It's the present that should concern you.
I'm proud of my country, where it is today.
Besides, why are you offended? I was commenting on the different kinds of
lives the different groups mentioned must lead...the kinds of discrimination
they face. Choosing the best of the three isn't an insult, it's an
acknowledgement of the problem.
Brian Doyle
"jayembee" <jerry.b...@eds.com> wrote in message
news:4f5e3318.02060...@posting.google.com...
> She heard that when Batman finally caught up with the Joker
> after she was shot, that he and the Joker were seen laughing
> together. She had absolutely no idea what they were laughing
> about, and in fact, in her confrontation with Batman, she
> even *asks* him if that's what the joke was about.
>
> But we, as readers of THE KILLING JOKE, *know* that the laughter
> had *nothing* to do with what happened to Barbara. But like all
> good urban legends, it continues to claimed that it did.
I've never even heard anyone anywhere, suggest for a moment they were laughing about
her.
Brian Doyle
"quimico" <qui...@fortalnet.com.br> wrote in message
news:3cfe9c34...@News.CIS.DFN.DE...
I thought he was her employer? Plus, if you're going to refer to a B-string heroes,
part time sidekick from twenty years ago then _everyone_ has an analogue. :)
Besides Scotty could walk, or fly in such a way that he seemed to, when he became
Mosquito... And you will NEVER know how appalled I am to realise I have wasted brain
cells remembering that all these years!!!
Brian Doyle
"Aaron Hazouri" <aaro...@aol.combizarro> wrote in message
news:20020605141551...@mb-fk.aol.com...
> >Agreed, Tim was depicted as being very much a nerd-level keyboard- jockey in
> >his introduction, but Oracle renders that irrelevant, and she does the same
> >for the research and background work that it was implied Tim also excelled
> >at (A different kind of Robin, who doesn't automatically assume that he will
> >be on patrols etc. Now he's another teenage ninja)
>
> How neat it would have been to have the Batman out and about fighting crime,
> with the Boy Wonder back at the cave doing legwork... or the two splitting up,
> Robin handling part of an investigation, Batman handling another part -- and
> meeting at the cave, going over the facts...
>
> I wonder at what point the "dark and moody" aspect took the place of Batman
> having any kind of character.
Easy; Batman Year 1 and the Jason Todd retcon, with its related effect on Dick's
reason for giving up being Robin.
Johanna Draper Carlson
> She had absolutely no idea what they were laughing
> about, and in fact, in her confrontation with Batman, she
> even *asks* him if that's what the joke was about.
She wouldn't have said "was it me?" unless the thought had occurred to
her that it was.
> But we, as readers of THE KILLING JOKE, *know* that the laughter
> had *nothing* to do with what happened to Barbara.
The Killing Joke never considers things from her perspective. In stories
where we're set up to identify with her instead of with Batman (or
instead of a third person outside the action), we share her questions.
--
Johanna Draper Carlson joh...@comicsworthreading.com
Reviews of Comics Worth Reading -- http://www.comicsworthreading.com
Newly updated: 30 Days of Night, Call of Duty: Brotherhood, Filth, FF,
Thing: Freakshow, Guardian Angel, Legion, TheNorm, XXXLiveNudeGirls
Hal Shipman
>>>> As a Canadian examining America, I can say that I might choose to be
>>>> paralyzed over being black or gay.
>>>
>>> Except these are not things to be chosen. Personally, I wouldn't choose to
>>be
>>> any different than I am.
>>>
>>>> But, that's likely a topic for another NG.
>>>
>>> Probably shouldn't have brought it up then.
>>>
>>
>>Well Seig Heil, pally.
>
>My point was, don't bring something up if you don't want to talk about it. If
>anyone's the Nazi, it's you for your obvious homophobia.
I read stace's comment as an observation of American homophobia.
i.s. If such things were a matter of choice, being paralyzed might be
a preferable choice considering how much more poorly blacks and gays
are regarded and treated.
ObDCU: I think that Oracle is a much more interesting character than
Batgirl every was. There are a couple of reasons for that, I believe,
including the talent of the writers in dealing with the character
(though not Dixon). Keeping her in the wheelchair maintains an
element of tragedy that might be lost or at least rendered meaningless
otherwise.
That being said, within the reality of the DCU, I think it is
absolutely ridiculous that she hasn't been healed yet.
Luis Dantas
>
> Just how old is Power Girl? I always thought of her being about the age of
> Supergirl.
Pre-Crisis, she was only slightly younger than (Earth-2) Superman,
but looked about 25 years old thanks to her space traveling (same
deal as pre-Crisis Terra-Man).
Post-Crisis, she is at least a few millenia old, but time-traveled
to the recent past. There is a good chance that Arion mystically
changed her in some way that slows down her aging.
Why are you looking at me that way? I answered your question as
best as I could...
Prestorjon
- It would point out the Oracle is an important role and not just a job
for the disabled.>>
Oracle is already an important role. Why would you consider it "just" a job
for the disabled?
-----------------
He had been our Destroyer, the doer of things
We dreamed of doing but could not bring ourselves to do,
The fears of years, like a biting whip,
Had cut deep bloody grooves
Across our backs.
-Etheridge Knight
Prestorjon
Because actions have consequences? Having Batgirl up and walking again (and as
much as some folks might like to pretend otherwise if she got healed she'd end
up back as Batgirl sooner or later) would undermine a lot of the impact of
Killing Joke.
quimico
>>
>> Now she is the DC copy of Marvel's 'Scotty', Jessica Drew's secretary...
>
>I thought he was her employer?
If so, she, have been fired in the first week... She treted him
(at best) with lordly condescendence, and at worst, with ill-disguised
contempt. Officially, they were partners - effectively, he was her
helper.
> Plus, if you're going to refer to a B-string heroes,
>part time sidekick from twenty years ago
Precisely. Now, what is it so good about being a copy of a B-string hero's
sidekick?
>then _everyone_ has an analogue. :)
No one so proximate as scotty is to Barbara.
>Besides Scotty could walk, or fly in such a way that he seemed to,
He did fly (not walk) but that was just for a very short time... really,
no more than short sub-plot made to show how desperate he was to achieva
'equal footing' with her partner. You might compare it to Superman's stint as
a sorcerer...
> when he became
>Mosquito... And you will NEVER know how appalled I am to realise I have wasted brain
>cells remembering that all these years!!!
>
Not wasted, used...They get wasted if NOT used.
Patrick Thompson
news:20020605000621...@mb-dh.aol.com...
> >From: "Patrick Thompson" p.h.th...@worldnet.att.net
>
> >Alright, maybe it would have been more accurate to say "5% robot."
Either
> >way, a synthetic or nanotech implant would make her a low-level cyborg,
by
> >virtue of having a cybernetic element. She's clearly not comfortable
with
> >that, perhaps becuase of her relationship with Batman, who is very
forceful
> >in his desire to not augment his abilities through artificial means (such
as
> >drugs or giving himself superpowers). If she were a real person instead
of
> >a fictional character, she would certainly have the perogative to refuse
a
> >cybernetic implant, just like many deaf people have refused cochlear
> >implants. There's no reason she wouldn't have the same right in the DCU.
>
> Ought to give up the glasses, too.
I wear glasses. I could wear contacts or get laser vision correction. I
choose not to. That is my perogative. If a real person can make a choice,
it seems reasonable for a fictional character in a somewhat analogous
situation to make the analogous choice. I choose not to avail myself of
surgical correction of a mild disability. She chooses not to avail herself
of surgical or cybernetic correction of a more serious disability that is
probably treatable given the tech level of her universe. What makes this so
unbelievable?
quimico
> Personally I think they paralyzed her just because Killing Joke was such a
>good story, they didn't want to contradict any of it by having her walking
>around again.
I don't think a good story is weakened because it is set in an 'alternate
reality'. I don't think TDKR needs to be linked to the DCU.
Patrick Thompson
news:adlje3$ipk$1...@samba.rahul.net...
> In article <QgdL8.23873$UT.16...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
> Patrick Thompson <p.h.th...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> >Alright, maybe it would have been more accurate to say "5% robot."
Either
> >way, a synthetic or nanotech implant would make her a low-level cyborg,
by
> >virtue of having a cybernetic element.
>
> of the body and probably covered by clothes won't have this problem.
There are other reasons one might object to a cybernetic implant. Sure a
right could just use a magic wand, and invent some piece of comic book
technology that would perfectly repair her injury without leaving any
noticeable afterefects, but would that really make for good storytelling? I
have enjoyed that the writers who have dealt with the issue have implied
that the situation is rather more complex. This lets the fact that she is
disabled resonate more with real-world concerns--cochlear implants are bulky
and distort sound, retinal implants are dodgy at best, the technology for
neuroresponsive motor systems is rudimentary (and has been shown to be so in
the DCU as well, incidentally, in a recent issue of Doom Patrol). Let's
face it: anything in the DCU can be changed with a handwave. Every panel of
every DC comic could be followed by "And then the Spectre/Dr.
Fate/Parallax/the Anti-Monitor showed up and changed everything" and it
would technically fit the basic rules of the DC universe, while
simultaneously failing the core requirements of good storytelling.
> >She's clearly not comfortable with
> >that, perhaps becuase of her relationship with Batman, who is very
forceful
> >in his desire to not augment his abilities through artificial means (such
as
> >drugs or giving himself superpowers).
>
> If she remained Oracle and didn't try to become Batgirl again, she'd be
> using purely mental abilities that aren't augmented by a spine implant in
> any way.
One would assume that in any person who compartmentalizes their life to a a
lesser degree than Batman, such a philosophy would carry over into life out
of costume. She's not just Oracle; if all she did was sit in front of a
computer screen 24/7 getting back the use of her legs would be a moot point.
She has also been shown doing mundane things like going to the store, doing
home repairs, and so on, and she follows the Batman model of expert training
and physical conditioning (most often shown in Nightwing) to let herself
live a relatively normal life at the peak of her physical potential. She's
even been shown to be adept enough at fighting from a seated position that
she could disable multiple able-bodied larger attackers.
Patrick Thompson
However, some good stories are aided by a shared continuity. For instance,
the "Sarah" in TDKR is little more than a running element of Gordon's
narration; we care about her fate only insofar as it effects him. Now, read
TDKR as being in the same continuity as Batman:Year One. In doing do, you
illuminate the character of Sarah and so increase your attachment to her, so
when Gordon fears for her safety in TDKR you care both for his sake and for
the sake of the character you met in the other book. Part of the resonance
of The Killing Joke is that we had a prior relationship with Barbara, so
that when Gordon sees someone he cares about maimed, we also see someone we
care about maimed. The story wouldn't work as well if the person the Joker
shot was Gordon's never-before-seen sister or mother.
We care more about characters in an established continuity because our
previous experience with them makes them more real to us than a new
character. Likewise, we care because we assume that what happens to them
will have some sort of consequences. We assume an essential continuity of
character, so that the Barbara shot in TKJ is the same one we knew from
before and the same one we read about later. Magic wand fixes (or retcons)
disrupt our connection to characters by demonstrating to us that in the
fictional universe characters are not subject to the same sort of continuity
of experience and causal relationships as are we.
quimico
>"quimico" <qui...@fortalnet.com.br> wrote in message
>news:3cfef843...@News.CIS.DFN.DE...
>> On 05 Jun 2002 02:24:35 GMT, aaro...@aol.combizarro (Aaron Hazouri)
>wrote:
>>
>>
>> > Personally I think they paralyzed her just because Killing Joke was
>such a
>> >good story, they didn't want to contradict any of it by having her
>walking
>> >around again.
>>
>> I don't think a good story is weakened because it is set in an 'alternate
>> reality'. I don't think TDKR needs to be linked to the DCU.
>
>However, some good stories are aided by a shared continuity. For instance,
>the "Sarah" in TDKR is little more than a running element of Gordon's
>narration; we care about her fate only insofar as it effects him. Now, read
>TDKR as being in the same continuity as Batman:Year One. In doing do, you
>illuminate the character of Sarah and so increase your attachment to her, so
>when Gordon fears for her safety in TDKR you care both for his sake and for
>the sake of the character you met in the other book. Part of the resonance
>of The Killing Joke is that we had a prior relationship with Barbara, so
>that when Gordon sees someone he cares about maimed, we also see someone we
>care about maimed. The story wouldn't work as well if the person the Joker
>shot was Gordon's never-before-seen sister or mother.
I am not arguing for replacement of Barbara in the Killing Joke, either.
TKJ's victim can keep being Barbara, as much as TDKR's Batman is Batman.
That is why the 'what-if'concept is useful. The backward links can
be as strong as you like, without any forward links whatsoever...
There is a distintion between backward links (that
TDKR does have, just from being more-or-less set in a 'what-if' DCU)
and forward links, or in-story consequencees, that it doesn't have.
Since you demand more semantic precision, I'll say that TKJ doesn't
need forward links to the DCU continuity, anymore than TDKR needs.
You worry about a given character because it is linked to your reading experience,
even if you know that the particular adventure you are reading won't have
repercutions on the rest of the line.
BHMarks
(a) relax, please. I was only making a (mildly humorous) comment, not
challenging your life choices.
(b) the only aspect of Barbara's situation that makes it seem a little
unbelievable to me is that we haven't been presnted with the choices and their
possible side effects (or, more to the point, we haven't seen Barbara wrestle
with these issues). What's available to her? What are the risks? What are
the possible results? I think good character presentation & development would
be served if we could see these things as part of a story. Without it, Barbara
saying "I don't want to be part cyborg" - when (just for example) the Martian
Manhunter hasn't even explained what approaches he was thinking of pursuing -
is a lot like you or me saying "I don't want 20-20 vision" when we don't even
know the cost-benefit ratios.
Without this, it just makes Barbara look stubborn. We don't even know what
"principle" she's upholding by avoiding "artificial parts" (which is why I made
my crack about the galsses). And, when asked, most readers admit that they
think the decision is probably coming form the editors rather than from the
character - which signals a breach in believability.
Personally, I think Barbara is a more interesting character in the wheelchair.
But I wish the character were supported by a setting in which her situation and
decisions made clearer sense. I would prefer a DCU *without* such a high level
of reliable tech (and "cost-free" magic), more recognizable to the reader,
where a question like this - and a thousand similar questions like it - could
be answered within the context of the shared fictional setting, instead of
being swept under the rug or hand-waved away.
As ever,
Bennet
Aaron Hazouri
>>choose not to. That is my perogative. If a real person can make a choice,
>>it seems reasonable for a fictional character in a somewhat analogous
>>situation to make the analogous choice. I choose not to avail myself of
>>surgical correction of a mild disability. She chooses not to avail herself
>>of surgical or cybernetic correction of a more serious disability that is
>>probably treatable given the tech level of her universe. What makes this so
>>unbelievable?
It's weird to me. I'm an art student, hoping to get into the field of
animation or cartooning, and I'm also almost totally colorblind -- can't tell
reds from greens from purples, etc. If there were some kind of implant or
filter, I'd jump all over it. There isn't, and it is after all a pretty minor
disability, so I make do.
I have a friend however who was in an incredibly stupid accident (showing
off while playing rugby) and as a result, lost the use of muscles in his right
ankle. While not debilitating, his foot will no longer move in an "up and
down" motion (as most of us use for driving, for example). If there were some
implant medical science could give him to allow proper functioning of his foot,
he would cheerfully accept it -- if not demand it.
I can't see someone who once made swinging from buildings and various other
acrobatics a part of her life refusing any kind of spinal cord repair offered
to her (short of one that would steal her soul, I suppose).
As someone else said -- it makes her look stubborn. Surely a very
interesting story could be made of her struggle to re-learn how to walk.
-Aaron
(My favorite version of the character is her incarnation on "Batman Beyond" as
an embittered old police commissioner.)
Aaron Hazouri
>TDKR does have, just from being more-or-less set in a 'what-if' DCU)
>and forward links, or in-story consequencees, that it doesn't have.
>Since you demand more semantic precision, I'll say that TKJ doesn't
>need forward links to the DCU continuity, anymore than TDKR needs.
I'm well familiar with the phone-in poll -- and the corporate PR surrounding
it -- but they DID bump Jason Todd off a couple years after The Dark Knight
Returns, and at the time my father always figured DC planned to kill him off,
if not as a result of the phone-in then shortly thereafter, and I've come to
agree with him.
Whether or not the storys NEED "forward links" isn't really relevant to the
reasons the editors carry the events over from special books into the regular
books. If the editor wants to give the impression events in these special
books are "really" occurring, one of the best ways to do it is show
repercussions of those events in the regular books.
An analogy -- not a perfect one -- might be the death of Superman, wherein
Batman and other DC characters wore black armbands -- to give the feel that
this event "really" happened across the "DC Universe," not just in the Superman
line.
-Aaron
Aaron Hazouri
>Dick's
>reason for giving up being Robin.
But even then, Batman still had something of a character... at some point --
as evidenced in the first Batman film -- darkness and moodiness took over
completely, removing all the fun aspects that made Batman Batman over the
years.