JLA: Are Fire and IceMaiden lesbians?
Mark Sztainbok
DC are heading towards creating a lesbian relationship between Fire and
Icemaiden.
Fire saying "Nobody knows the changes I've been through". IceMaiden
saying "Or is she already...more than a friend" and "Even everything she
was...to you". These things really make me think that Fire and Icemaiden
are about to hit it off. All this raises a few questions: Are Fire
and Icemaiden really lesbians? Whatever happened to the promiscuous Fire
of yesteryear who dated and, based on the JLA annual of Armageddon 2001,
will marry Oberon of all people (I know that this future isn't true....)?
Were Fire and the previous Ice involved in a lesbian relationship? What
would Guy Gardner think of it if they were? Would he have joined in if he
knew?
What do you all think?
Mark Sztainbok
(mjs...@penfold.cc.monash.edu.au)
Actlete
I think there is definitely a possibility. It doesn't, however, seem
mutual. It seems like IceMaiden is a little "cold" to the idea. And it
isn't overly overt, in any case. While a strong case could be made for a
desire for a lesbian relationship, it is not necessarily true. It could
just be that Fire misses the person who was like a sister to her, and
wants to regain that kind of closeness. Or it could be a latent
homosexual tendency on her part, that she was not even aware of until now.
All in all, it will be interesting to see where DC goes with it.
In brightest day, in darkest night,
No evil shall escape my sight.
Let those who worship evil's might,
Beware my power: Green Lantern's light!
Nyx Nshade
would Guy Gardner think of it if they were? Would he have joined in if he
knew?>
I don't think that Fire and Tora/Ice were involved, no. Tora was in love
with Guy, and Fire was smitten with Oberon (hehe. Always loved that.)
I don't read the current League (too painful for me), so I don't know
what's up right now. But I *really* don't think Fire and Tora were
involved.
Oh, btw. Tora is one of the only cases in the world where I would request
a ressurrection. Sigh.
Nyx
Fan of everything Magnus, except his helmet, and especially his hair.
Demophoon
DC COMICS ONLINE message boards on AOL. If you have a chance, get one of
those TEN HOURS FREE AOL mailers and check it out. Some good points have
been raised, many by Giand...@aol.com who in my opinion is the
JLAmeister.
I don't know what Gerald Jones, the writer of JLA, is trying to prove
here, but his guessing-game style of presenting this story has left many
readers thinking, "HUH!!?"
Now for another "alternate perspective", doesn't it seem like Obsidian has
more than the usual male-bonding feelings toward Nuklon?????? All of those
emotional outbursts seem like a jealous and spurned boyfriend, when his
date hits on someone else. At least that's what it reminds me of. I think
that Jones needs to clarify what he's trying to do here, because the
interpretations are running wild.......yet there's been relatively little
clamor about this? Why is that?
Abhay Khosla
I think I'll start with Kieth Giffen's description of what all he's
written, one bit I found particularly notable: "writer of the
intentionally funny issues of the Justice League..."
On 17 Jun 1995, Mark Sztainbok wrote:
> Fire saying "Nobody knows the changes I've been through". IceMaiden
Sure I do. She used to shoot an inch of green flame, but then she got a
cold during the Invasion and she became like a green Human Torch only
more fun on a date. Didn't she read the issues?
> saying "Or is she already...more than a friend" and "Even everything she
> was...to you". These things really make me think that Fire and Icemaiden
> are about to hit it off. All this raises a few questions: Are Fire
Hit it off? Thats one way to put things too.
Quick question: what happened to that guy from the Secret Origins of
Icemadain story? I never read the Global Guardians but there was this
guy who discovered the Ice People, and since he had a camera on him("Look
father, they can freeze light!" Jim Valentino story if I remember...),
the king of the Ice People gave them his daughter as an ambassador. He
always seemed kinda greasy...
> and Icemaiden really lesbians? Whatever happened to the promiscuous Fire
> of yesteryear who dated and, based on the JLA annual of Armageddon 2001,
Fire a lesbian? Possibly, as long as they keep her the bombastic
exhibitionist she always was. The Secret Origins with her always had her
manipulating men with her looks. Fire is possible(she's from Brazil, I
think taboos aren't as strong there...).
Ice on the other hand was just his extremely shy and repressed lady.
Sure, she dated Guy Gardner and that would probably ruin her for all
other men. But I don't know...just sounds far-fetched.
> will marry Oberon of all people (I know that this future isn't true....)?
Really? Darn, that would have been cool. Well, I woulda got to see
Mister Miracle again and not in Superman: Waster of the 4th World.
> would Guy Gardner think of it if they were? Would he have joined in if he
> knew?
Er, I...don't ... uh...know.
Strange not to end on...
-Abhay
akh...@umich.edu
MICHAEL 'FLASH' WELCH
Notttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt
Thattttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt
They are not lebians... no they are not... mind you of course that would
explain why Bea always hated guy so much. I mean hey Guy was stickin... oops I
should keep this clean shouldn't I. Anyway... that would explain a lot of her
hostility toward guy way back when... then again guy was an all around jerk
back then. Hmmm...
Mike
I gotta go study.
Greg Zywicki
demo...@aol.com (Demophoon) wrote:
>Now for another "alternate perspective", doesn't it seem like Obsidian has
>more than the usual male-bonding feelings toward Nuklon?????? All of those
>emotional outbursts seem like a jealous and spurned boyfriend, when his
>date hits on someone else. At least that's what it reminds me of. I think
>that Jones needs to clarify what he's trying to do here, because the
>interpretations are running wild.......yet there's been relatively little
>clamor about this? Why is that?
Prolly because the storyline has made it fairly more clear that
Obsidian looks for a balancing personality in his life - previously
his sister Jade. And that this balancing personality isn't
necessarily healthy for him, since he healed his rips and tears in
a bout of extremely petulant musings.
Greg Z
Giandonato
opinion is the JLAmeister.>>>
Thank Yew, Thank Yew! :-) Wow, now I have a rep to uphold.
Seriously, I don't think DC will make Fire and Ice Maiden lesbians. The
same goes for Nuklon and Obsidian. (not that they could be lesbians even
if they wanted to ;-) )
Think about... this is a mainstream DC book. Do you really think this is
the place DC would "test the waters" with an out in the open gay couple?
Personally, I think Jones is just pulling our strings and hoping to get
some people talking about JLA again.
Whatever happens, I hope they don't go back and make Fire and Ice (Tora)
lesbians... that would just be wrong.
-Giandonato
"Mr. Beetle, why are you so fat?"
Robert M Chittister
Gold forever!), here's my not-so-humble opinion o Fire & Ice:
DC has never had a whole lot of out-of-the-closet heroes, but most that
I can remember have been with the Justice League (I believe Tasmanian
Devil and BlueJay were out). But despite this, there have never been any
real storylines dealing wit htheir orientation. I think what we'll see
is Ice Maiden come out and Bea's reaction to this. I mean, here's her
best friend, propositioning her. I think in the right hands (Gerard
Jones & Priest), this could be one hell of a running storyline that has
nothing to do woth blowing up the bad guys.
What do you guys think? The thing I miss most about the old (pre-Death
of Superman) Justice League were the storylines dealing with character
interaction, not let's-go-blow-shit-up. It seems that the current league
books (Fire & Ice, Booster trying to get out of his armor, Cap &
Plastique) are going back to that somewhat. Kudos for them!
Max
Bring back the Booster Brigade!!
James Nicoll
Giandonato <giand...@aol.com> wrote:
><<<Some good points have been raised, many by Giand...@aol.com who in my
>opinion is the JLAmeister.>>>
>
>Thank Yew, Thank Yew! :-) Wow, now I have a rep to uphold.
>
>Seriously, I don't think DC will make Fire and Ice Maiden lesbians. The
>same goes for Nuklon and Obsidian. (not that they could be lesbians even
>if they wanted to ;-) )
One word: profem.
James Nicoll
--
"You stopped shivering."
"Terror seems to have warmed me up."
Johanna Draper
Demophoon <demo...@aol.com> wrote:
> I think that Jones needs to clarify what he's trying to do here,
> because the interpretations are running wild.......yet there's been
> relatively little clamor about this? Why is that?
Because we're all talking about rumors?
Or maybe because most of us have dropped the book at this point? (I just
couldn't put up with it anymore -- the current crossover worked in reverse
for me. Instead of buying more books, I dropped JLA.)
Just what kind of "clamor" were you expecting?
Johanna
Abhiji...@transarc.com
Robert M Chittister <rc...@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
> I can remember have been with the Justice League (I believe Tasmanian
> Devil and BlueJay were out).
Nope. Blue Jay wasn't out. The only reference I can find to this is a
comment Blue Jay makes in early Giffen JLA in which he refers to
the dead Captain Speed as his friend. I believe this was something
Giffen mentioned in interviews, but it never happened in the regular
book.
> is Ice Maiden come out and Bea's reaction to this. I mean, here's her
> best friend, propositioning her.
It could be a good storyline. Unfortunately, JLA is so bad these days
that I could care less ...
Abhijit
WILLIAM H. SUDDERTH
: Think about... this is a mainstream DC book. Do you really think this is
: the place DC would "test the waters" with an out in the open gay couple?
Admittedly, she's a background character, but the fact that Maggie Sawyer
was revealed as a lesbian in SUPERMAN, of all places, shows that DC upon
occasion can be adventurous. And remember, the Maggie/Toby relationship
was a fundamental, if understated, part of the METROPOLIS S.C.U. miniseries.
-- Will Sudderth, trying to come up with another .sig
Bruce Baugh
jam...@coulomb.uwaterloo.ca (James Nicoll) wrote:
: One word: profem.
Thank you, Mr Nicholl, that will be all. Thanks for coming, everyone. Mr
Nicholl, let these nice big strong men show you to the nearest annihilation
booth.
:-)
bru...@teleport.com _____________ http://www.teleport.com/~bruceab/
List Manager, Christlib, for Christian and libertarian concerns
Preview S.M. Stirling's forthcoming novel DRAKON at my home page
PGP signing on hold while I fool around with beta software
"Encrypt! Encrypt! OK! All-One-Key-Steganography-Privacy!
God's law prevents decryption above 1042 bytes - Exceptions? None!"
Abhiji...@transarc.com
sg94...@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu (Johanna Draper) writes:
> couldn't put up with it anymore -- the current crossover worked in reverse
> for me. Instead of buying more books, I dropped JLA.)
Weren't you the person touting the JLA comic as one of the shining
examples of 20th century Western literature just a few weeks back :-) ?
I'll admit that the only reason I've been buying JLA was so I could
make sarcastic and sneering responses to any positive comments you
made about the title :-).
More seriously, the crossover didn't make any difference to me. I
found the stories barely readable before the x-over, and now I find
them .. barely readable.
Abhijit
Johanna Draper
<Abhiji...@transarc.com> wrote:
>Nope. Blue Jay wasn't out. The only reference I can find to this is a
>comment Blue Jay makes in early Giffen JLA in which he refers to
>the dead Captain Speed as his friend.
I seem to recall some other comments that could be interpreted that way --
around the time they're leaving the JL, or around the Silver Sorceress's
death, maybe?
>It could be a good storyline. Unfortunately, JLA is so bad these days
>that I could care less ...
Ditto. Unfortunately.
Johanna
Johanna Draper
<Abhiji...@transarc.com> wrote:
>Weren't you the person touting the JLA comic as one of the shining
>examples of 20th century Western literature just a few weeks back :-) ?
Yeah. It got worse. I figured enjoying the Hawkman issue of the crossover
more than the JLA one was a bad sign.
>I'll admit that the only reason I've been buying JLA was so I could
>make sarcastic and sneering responses to any positive comments you
>made about the title :-).
See? I knew it was a vendetta. :)
But I had no idea that you actually *listened* to my suggestions. Oh, the
power .... :)
>More seriously, the crossover didn't make any difference to me. I
>found the stories barely readable before the x-over, and now I find
>them .. barely readable.
I really do see a difference between these issues and #100.
Johanna
David Hamburger
>Giandonato (giand...@aol.com) wrote:
>: Think about... this is a mainstream DC book. Do you really think this is
>: the place DC would "test the waters" with an out in the open gay couple?
>Admittedly, she's a background character, but the fact that Maggie Sawyer
>was revealed as a lesbian in SUPERMAN, of all places, shows that DC upon
>occasion can be adventurous. And remember, the Maggie/Toby relationship
>was a fundamental, if understated, part of the METROPOLIS S.C.U. miniseries.
Well, Byrne NEVER actually revealed that Maggie was lesbian. Ho
strongly suggested it, but never actually stated it. In fact, in his
Next Men letter column he talks about how he wrote this storyline with
"several possible interpretations", one of which is that Maggie's a
lesbian. He never stated what any other interpretation could be,
however, and I don't think there are any.
None of the Superman books have actually confirmed that she and Toby
are lovers.
However, with the MSCU mini-series, you'd have to be brain-dead not to
get it. And I don't think that there is any other possible
explanation now. Kudo's to DC for having the nerve to focus a
mini-series on a lesbian, and show her friendship with hetero Lois.
I suspect that we'll have a definite answer on Fire and IceMaiden
soon.
David
lbona
:
: Seriously, I don't think DC will make Fire and Ice Maiden lesbians. The
: same goes for Nuklon and Obsidian. (not that they could be lesbians even
: if they wanted to ;-) )
Well, from past JL books we know Fire isn't a lesbian, although she could
be bi-. Seriously, if anything Fire has been shown to be kind of sleazy,
or maybe it's just teasy, I'm not sure.
We also know that Nuklon is interested in marrying "a nice Jewish girl".
But if Ice Maiden and Obsidian do come out of the closet consider this:
DC's new politically correct comic, the Homosexual Justice League of PC
America. They could get Tasmainian(sp) Devil to join and Ice Maiden
could be the leader. Then all they'd need is a gay black Vulcan.(big G)
--
Lou Bona
lb...@tgf.tc.faa.gov
Robert M Chittister
Are Fire and IceMa.. by Johanna Dra...@dunx1.ocs
> <Abhiji...@transarc.com> wrote:
>>Nope. Blue Jay wasn't out. The only reference I can find to this is a
>>comment Blue Jay makes in early Giffen JLA in which he refers to
>>the dead Captain Speed as his friend.
>
>I seem to recall some other comments that could be interpreted that way --
>around the time they're leaving the JL, or around the Silver Sorceress's
>death, maybe?
I was flipping through some old JLE from around "Breakdowns" last night,
and there was a question in a lettercol that asked "When is Blue Jay
coming out?" The answer was something along the lines of "When he wants
to."
It could be that was a future storyline of Giffen's that Jones decided
to drop when Blue Jay left the League and that was a subtle little hint.
Or, it could be that the guy writing the letter didn't know what he was
talking about, and Kevin Dooley was messing with his mind.
IMHO, he just wasn't out yet. And since, to the best of my knowledge,
he's made one appearance since Breakdowns, he'll probably stay there.
Max
"HOly rusted metal, Batman!"
Marc Singer
>
>But if Ice Maiden and Obsidian do come out of the closet consider this:
>DC's new politically correct comic, the Homosexual Justice League of PC
>America.
This really worries you, doesn't it?
Thanks for slapping the "PC" label around, though. It's usually a nice
indicator of how little the user actually has to say.
Marc
lbona
: In article <3sdqtk...@faatcrl.faa.gov>, lbona <lbona@saratoga> wrote:
: >
: >But if Ice Maiden and Obsidian do come out of the closet consider this:
: >DC's new politically correct comic, the Homosexual Justice League of PC
: >America.
:
: This really worries you, doesn't it?
Not in the least. BTW I noticed how you managed to not quote the part of my
post with the big G in () at the end.
: Thanks for slapping the "PC" label around, though. It's usually a nice
: indicator of how little the user actually has to say.
:
: Marc
:
Actually what I had to say was "lighten up, who cares if they're gay". Next
time try actually reading the post and understanding it. I didn't think it
was all that subtle.
Just in case, I'll spell it out for you - I don't care about their sexual
orientation. If it comes up fine, if not great. I read comics for escapist
fantasy and action adventure, if I want insight into "alternative" lifestyles
I go to Philly or Atlantic City.
I'm straight and I like oral sex, I don't make a big deal of it, it's just
the way I am. I also like the Black Condor and hate what happened to Hal
Jordan.
Rassin' @$##!2w frassum !@!@#! friggin' liberals!!! :)<--notice before reacting
--
Lou Bona
lb...@tgf.tc.faa.gov
Mathew Edward Elli Rippere
: Robert M Chittister <rc...@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
: > I can remember have been with the Justice League (I believe Tasmanian
: > Devil and BlueJay were out).
: Nope. Blue Jay wasn't out. The only reference I can find to this is a
: comment Blue Jay makes in early Giffen JLA in which he refers to
: the dead Captain Speed as his friend. I believe this was something
: Giffen mentioned in interviews, but it never happened in the regular
: book.
: > is Ice Maiden come out and Bea's reaction to this. I mean, here's her
: > best friend, propositioning her.
: It could be a good storyline. Unfortunately, JLA is so bad these days
: that I could care less ...
: Abhijit
It would make an interesting story line. Just don't let Giffen touch it!!!
fredrick b. chary
>Just in case, I'll spell it out for you - I don't care about their sexual
>orientation. If it comes up fine, if not great. I read comics for escapist
>fantasy and action adventure, if I want insight into "alternative" lifestyles
>I go to Philly or Atlantic City.
>
>I'm straight and I like oral sex, I don't make a big deal of it, it's just
>the way I am.
Okay, I *REALLY* did *NOT* need to know that. I don't care about your
sexual practices, and as interested as I am certain everyone else is in them,
I feel certain they could ask you via e-mail if it became a burning question.
Mike, using Fred's account.
Marc Singer
Eric Wang
>>>> ... consider this: DC's new politically correct comic, the
>>>> Homosexual Justice League of PC America.
ma...@wam.umd.edu (Marc Singer) misunderstands and writes:
>>> This really worries you, doesn't it? Thanks for slapping the "PC"
>>> label around, though. It's usually a nice indicator of how little
>>> the user actually has to say.
>lbona <lbona@saratoga> wrote:
>> Not in the least ... Actually what I had to say was "lighten up, who
>> cares if they're gay".
ma...@wam.umd.edu (Marc Singer) still doesn't get it and writes:
>That doesn't make fretting over a "Homosexual Justice League" any less
>insipid. ... You slapped around that wonderfully nondescript "PC" label
>as if it actually signified something other than "vague politics in
>general" or "ideas I don't like."
Whoosh, Marc. Whoosh.
And again: WHOOOOOOOSH.
The sound of a joke sailing way over your head. Look up.
You totally misunderstood lbona's original post: he was making a
*joke*. It was *sarcasm*. He was deliberately making an absurd
exaggeration involving "political correctness" with the very intent
of demonstrating the silliness of "political correctness". He was
poking fun at the idea that some uptight DC execs and/or editors,
possibly worried about their corporate image in this day and age,
would take PC seriously and attempt to base a comic book around it.
Such a book would flop pretty miserably, no? (Would *you* buy such
a book? I wouldn't.) But if it's the "PC" that makes the book a
flop, what does that say about the value of "PC"? *That's* the
funny.
It's like somebody suggesting that Superman form his own Society of
Heroes Who've Come Back From the Dead, or Hawkman starting a League
of A Thousand Retcons. Would you flame said hypothetical poster
about taking resurrection too lightly?
Joker says: you get the joke, you laugh at the joke, end of joke.
You, Marc, didn't get the joke. I think you need to turn down your
knee-jerk reflex response at the concatenation of the sixteenth and
third letters of the alphabet. From what was apparent to me on my
first reading thru lbona's articles, he's on your side; both of you
hold "PC" in disdain. Why are you flaming him?
Eric Wang
wa...@sml0.ge.uiuc.edu
Marc Singer
>: In article <3sdqtk...@faatcrl.faa.gov>, lbona <lbona@saratoga> wrote:
>: >
>: >DC's new politically correct comic, the Homosexual Justice League of PC
>: >America.
>: This really worries you, doesn't it?
>:
>Not in the least. BTW I noticed how you managed to not quote the part of my
>post with the big G in () at the end.
That doesn't make fretting over a "Homosexual Justice League" any less
insipid. Especially when only two characters at most (and only one, really,
since the last issue seemed to set Icemaiden off on her own) could come out.
There are *many* things to complain about in the current JLA book, but the
mere potential presence of lesbians isn't one of them.
>: Thanks for slapping the "PC" label around, though. It's usually a nice
>: indicator of how little the user actually has to say.
>:
>Actually what I had to say was "lighten up, who cares if they're gay". Next
>time try actually reading the post and understanding it. I didn't think it
>was all that subtle.
No, not subtle at all. Nor all that hard to understand. You slapped
around that wonderfully nondescript "PC" label as if it actually signified
something other than "vague politics in general" or "ideas I don't like."
>Just in case, I'll spell it out for you - I don't care about their sexual
>orientation. If it comes up fine, if not great. I read comics for escapist
>fantasy and action adventure, if I want insight into "alternative" lifestyles
>I go to Philly or Atlantic City.
Sadly, Lou (well, not so sadly), other people get different things out of
comics *and* Philadelphia. But making one or two characters as gay (even
when one of them was one of the most blatantly heterosexual members of the
League for a while) doesn't constitute a PC shift or a "Homosexual League."
At best, it seems, this plotline is constituting a lot of two-dimensional
angst, and that's what needs attention, not whether or not it fits somebody's
definition of "PC."
Marc
Marc Singer
Fascinating little tale. Too bad the words that have been posted don't
support these captions... then again, the fact that you have to rely on
changing the captions to "support" your argument says a lot about its worth.
>
> Whoosh, Marc. Whoosh.
>
> And again: WHOOOOOOOSH.
>
> The sound of a joke sailing way over your head. Look up.
Oha, and sound effects. Changing captions and sound effects, the mark of
a clear thinker.
> You totally misunderstood lbona's original post: he was making a
> *joke*. It was *sarcasm*. He was deliberately making an absurd
> exaggeration involving "political correctness" with the very intent
> of demonstrating the silliness of "political correctness". He was
> poking fun at the idea that some uptight DC execs and/or editors,
> possibly worried about their corporate image in this day and age,
> would take PC seriously and attempt to base a comic book around it.
> Such a book would flop pretty miserably, no? (Would *you* buy such
> a book? I wouldn't.) But if it's the "PC" that makes the book a
> flop, what does that say about the value of "PC"? *That's* the
> funny.
And I responded that the PC label is *meaningless*, as is any attempt,
jokingly or not, to hit the JLA book with it. The point isn't whether
JLA is PC or not, whether lbona thinks it's PC or not, or whether PC is
inherently silly or not (which a lot of it is); I jumped in and said that
the very use of the PC label *in the joke* was pointless and says a lot
more about its paranoid users than the people or comics it's applied to.
Gee, Eric, it seems you... misunderstood. Don't worry, though, I won't
try to rub it in with cheap captions, I'll just state it in simple and
easily-understood terms. :)
> It's like somebody suggesting that Superman form his own Society of
> Heroes Who've Come Back From the Dead, or Hawkman starting a League
> of A Thousand Retcons. Would you flame said hypothetical poster
> about taking resurrection too lightly?
>
> Joker says: you get the joke, you laugh at the joke, end of joke.
> You, Marc, didn't get the joke. I think you need to turn down your
> knee-jerk reflex response at the concatenation of the sixteenth and
> third letters of the alphabet. From what was apparent to me on my
> first reading thru lbona's articles, he's on your side; both of you
> hold "PC" in disdain. Why are you flaming him?
No, lbona holds "PC" in disdain (I do too, actually), I thought that
particular use of it was way off the mark. Yes, the sarcasm and derision
in the "Homosexual League of PC Heroes" was quite obvious, but my problem
wasn't that lbona actually took homosexuality too lightly, rather that the
"PC" label, old standby of people who can't think of anything better to say,
didn't apply at all. Lou actually did understand this, I understood this...
perhaps you should have taken the time to understand it as well, if you
were going to jump in and start deciding what others did and didn't
understand.
I believe the word is "Whoosh," Eric. (Oh, drat, I did it anyway.)
Marc
lbona
: In article <3si2dq$d...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>,
: Eric Wang <wa...@sml0.ge.uiuc.edu> wrote:
: >lbona <lbona@saratoga> wrote:
: >ma...@wam.umd.edu (Marc Singer) misunderstands and writes:
: >>lbona <lbona@saratoga> wrote:
: >ma...@wam.umd.edu (Marc Singer) still doesn't get it and writes:
:
: Fascinating little tale. Too bad the words that have been posted don't
: support these captions... then again, the fact that you have to rely on
: changing the captions to "support" your argument says a lot about its worth.
Actually I thought the captions supported the argument quite well, but perception
is 9/10 of reality and we obviously see things differently even if we basically
agree on them.
: > You totally misunderstood lbona's original post: he was making a
: > *joke*. It was *sarcasm*. He was deliberately making an absurd
: > exaggeration involving "political correctness" with the very intent
: > of demonstrating the silliness of "political correctness". He was
:
Close, the exageration and sarcasm were meant to illustrate the ridiculousness
of drawing out Ice Maiden's "coming out" or worse, DC using it as a cheap
attention getter. "Tune in this month to JLA to see if Ice Maiden reveals
her wanton homosexual desire for Fire" or some such soap opera like crap.
DC handled Maggie Sawyer very well in Metropolis SCU, she's gay, big deal. The
important thing was that she's a good cop doing a tough job and has a caring
family to support her.
: And I responded that the PC label is *meaningless*, as is any attempt,
: jokingly or not, to hit the JLA book with it. The point isn't whether
: JLA is PC or not, whether lbona thinks it's PC or not, or whether PC is
: inherently silly or not (which a lot of it is); I jumped in and said that
: the very use of the PC label *in the joke* was pointless and says a lot
: more about its paranoid users than the people or comics it's applied to.
I wasn't trying to hit JLA with the PC label, rather I was using it to
illustrate where the JLA could wind up if this idea were taken to a ludicrous
extreme. You may consider "PC" a meaningless label, and it may well be for
most serious purposes, but it is still quite useful in a joke.
Further, I would put forth the notion that you, Marc, are the one who is
paranoid when it comes to political correctness. Not the idea, since you don't
really seem to care for it any more than myself or Eric, but the term PC DOES
seem to generate a disdainful knee-jerk reaction from you.
: > It's like somebody suggesting that Superman form his own Society of
: > Heroes Who've Come Back From the Dead, or Hawkman starting a League
: > of A Thousand Retcons. Would you flame said hypothetical poster
: > about taking resurrection too lightly?
"League of a Thousand Retcons", I love it. Half the DC universe could qualify
and they could make Spidey an honorary member.
--
Lou Bona
lb...@tgf.tc.faa.gov
lbona
: In article <3sfbsc...@faatcrl.faa.gov>, lbona <lbona@saratoga> wrote:
: >Just in case, I'll spell it out for you - I don't care about their sexual
: >orientation. If it comes up fine, if not great. I read comics for escapist
: >fantasy and action adventure, if I want insight into "alternative" lifestyles
: >I go to Philly or Atlantic City.
< stuff Mike didn't want to know deleted >
: Okay, I *REALLY* did *NOT* need to know that. I don't care about your
The fact that you don't care reinforces my point.
: Mike, using Fred's account.
:
If it really bothered you, why did you copy the offensive part and start a
new thread with it? Or did you just want to make sure that anyone who missed
it the first time had a chance to be equally upset by it?
--
Lou Bona
lb...@tgf.tc.faa.gov
fredrick b. chary
>fch...@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (fredrick b. chary) writes:
>: In article <3sfbsc...@faatcrl.faa.gov>, lbona <lbona@saratoga> wrote:
>: >Just in case, I'll spell it out for you - I don't care about their sexual
>: >orientation. If it comes up fine, if not great. I read comics for escapist
>: >fantasy and action adventure, if I want insight into "alternative" lifestyles
>: >I go to Philly or Atlantic City.
>: >
>
> < stuff Mike didn't want to know deleted >
>
>: Okay, I *REALLY* did *NOT* need to know that. I don't care about your
>
>The fact that you don't care reinforces my point.
So your point was what exactly? That you have no idea what society considers
important information for a discussion on sexual orientation in comic books?
>
>: Mike, using Fred's account.
>:
>
>If it really bothered you, why did you copy the offensive part and start a
>new thread with it? Or did you just want to make sure that anyone who missed
>it the first time had a chance to be equally upset by it?
Because I have been using Usenet for longer than twenty minutes, and,
therefore, have a rough idea of when the suject of a post no longer fits
in a given thread.
Marc Singer
>
>Actually I thought the captions supported the argument quite well, but perception
>is 9/10 of reality and we obviously see things differently even if we basically
>agree on them.
>
>of drawing out Ice Maiden's "coming out" or worse, DC using it as a cheap
>attention getter. "Tune in this month to JLA to see if Ice Maiden reveals
>her wanton homosexual desire for Fire" or some such soap opera like crap.
>DC handled Maggie Sawyer very well in Metropolis SCU, she's gay, big deal. The
>important thing was that she's a good cop doing a tough job and has a caring
>family to support her.
Well, I thought METROPOLIS SCU was actually actively *avoiding* Maggie's
gayness, and it wasn't well written either... but I agree, the regular
Superbooks handle her sexuality very well without making a big deal about
it. Very much *unlike* all these unsubtle innuendos in JLA about Fire.
>I wasn't trying to hit JLA with the PC label, rather I was using it to
>illustrate where the JLA could wind up if this idea were taken to a ludicrous
>extreme. You may consider "PC" a meaningless label, and it may well be for
>most serious purposes, but it is still quite useful in a joke.
>
>Further, I would put forth the notion that you, Marc, are the one who is
>paranoid when it comes to political correctness. Not the idea, since you don't
>really seem to care for it any more than myself or Eric, but the term PC DOES
>seem to generate a disdainful knee-jerk reaction from you.
Funny, I thought the PC label *was* a disdainful knee-jerk reaction. :)
Sadly, about 90% of the times I've seen it used -- 99% of the times on this
paragon of illumination, the Internet -- have supported this view.
But you're right, we do basically agree on a lot of things. I find Gerard
Jones's shenanigans with Fire and Ice to be just as foolish as you do.
But the whole "PC" thing is so mined out (you know it's bad when Miss Manners
is sick of it), that I don't even find it useful for jokes anymore. Does
*anybody* still laugh when some short comedian says he's "vertically
challenged"? Even these tired jokes still work from the same (imho useless)
premises about PCism.
But just think, if Jones would write JLA better, it would never come up...:)
Marc
lbona
: >fch...@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (fredrick b. chary) writes:
: >: important information for a discussion on sexual orientation in comic books?
: >My point was, just as you don't care about my sexual preferences, although
: >the continuance of this thread suggests otherwise, I don't care about Ice Maiden's.
: >Or to be more precise I don't care to see it used as adoloescent titilation.
:
: No, the continuance of this thread suggests that I am trying educate a
: terminally clueless person, who doesn't seem to realize that posting
: matters which are usually taken to be private to a public forum is beyond the
: pale.
< Flame on - tm John Byrne >
Sorry, I don't buy that. If, as you say, you were "trying to educate me" a simple
private e-mail would have sufficed. No, I think you were just trying to be
"cool" and make a humorous, if lame, comment. Now you're upset because I had
the audacity(sp) to try and explain the comment, so you're now trying to play
it as though I'm a clueless newbie and you're the grand guru of the net. Hate to
burst your bubble Mike, but I've been on the net for about 5 years, maybe not as
long as you, maybe longer, doesn't really matter. Point is, I'm not new to this and
don't really need you to tell me what's appropriate. You don't like the "matter"
which I posted, go play on Prodigy or AOL forums where they're likely to censor
that kinda stuff.
< Flame off >
By and large, everything I post is in language appropriate for anyone to read.
Once in a while, an extreme example has to be given to make a point. After you
cool down and turn off your flame thrower think about it. You seem to be a
reasonably intelligent person, hopefully you'll see that that is a reasonable
tact in a debate (arguement?).
Now back to my point, which your latest response supports. Ice Maiden's sexual
preference is amoung those things, to qoute you, "which are usually taken to
be private".
: >: Because I have been using Usenet for longer than twenty minutes, and,
: >: therefore, have a rough idea of when the suject of a post no longer fits
: >: in a given thread.
: >:
: >That explains the new thread as opposed to adding to the old. It doesn't explain
: >why my post garnered a response of any kind from you, and it certainly doesn't
: >explain why the response was basically "I don't want to see this kind of thing,
: >but here's a copy of it for anyone who didn't see it."
:
: Try to understand, even if it hurts. If I had not included the original
: article, people wouldn't know what I was objecting to.
I can see your point there, but I still think that if you find the language
objectional propagating it is a little hypocritical. By creating a new thread
with it you just draw attention to something that you think shouldn't even be
here.
:
: Mike, using Fred's account.
--
Lou Bona
lb...@tgf.tc.faa.gov
Eric Wang
>> He was poking fun at the idea that some uptight DC execs and/or
>> editors, possibly worried about their corporate image in this day
>> and age, would take PC seriously and attempt to base a comic book
ma...@wam.umd.edu (Marc Singer) writes:
>And I responded that the PC label is *meaningless*, as is any attempt,
>jokingly or not, to hit the JLA book with it.
You know that, I know that, I think lbona knows that. For me, the
humor lay in the unnerving suggestion that somebody in DC doesn't
know it. It's a nightmare scenario, after all. If "PC" was a truly
inappropriate term to use, then wouldn't it be that much worse of a
nightmare if DC actually did use it? That's the way I saw it.
>The point isn't whether JLA is PC or not, whether lbona thinks it's PC
>or not, or whether PC is inherently silly or not (which a lot of it
>is); I jumped in and said that the very use of the PC label *in the
>joke* was pointless and says a lot more about its paranoid users than
>the people or comics it's applied to. ^^^^^^^^
I admit I can't get into lbona's head, so I don't know if (1) he
really is "afraid" of PC, and thus when he went looking for a
maximally ludicrous adjective to use in his hypothetical title, some
deep-seated fear in his psyche responded, "'PC'! Use 'PC'!", or (2)
whether he only has the fairly harmless meme "PC is silly" stored in
his memory, and he consciously used it in an off-hand manner to
reinforce the silliness of his hypothetical title by using "PC" as a
silly adjective. I instinctively adopted interpretation (2),
whereas you appear to have assumed interpretation (1). IMHO, his
subsequent posts provide more support for (2). In any case, though,
it seemed to me at the time, and still does, that you started the
name-throwing by immediately accusing him of being paranoid in your
first follow-up. Then he responded so as to reinforce (2), and you
flamed him again based on (1). That's when I jumped in -- it looked
to me like you mis-interpreted him twice in a row, mistakenly
thinking that his statement "Wouldn't it suck if DC said 'X'" was a
personal declaration of "I support 'X'" (sorry about this form of
abbreviation -- I can dig up the quotes if you really want me to),
and were throwing hostile names around in the process. You could
have made your point about "PC"'s invalidity without accusing lbona
of being "paranoid" and "worried" about it.
>I believe the word is "Whoosh," Eric.
Wrong F/X -- the "whoosh" sound is made only by jokes passing
overhead. Or are you suggesting that your entire response was a
joke? :-)
The "whoosh" stuff is a tactic I've used before to try to make
people step back and see the forest -- sometimes it works, sometimes
it fizzles. You deflected it this time, so next time I'll have to
resort to my F/X of Mass Destruction.
Eric Wang
wa...@sml0.ge.uiuc.edu
lbona
: >fch...@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (fredrick b. chary) writes:
: >: >Just in case, I'll spell it out for you - I don't care about their sexual
: >: >orientation. If it comes up fine, if not great. I read comics for escapist
: >: >fantasy and action adventure, if I want insight into "alternative" lifestyles
: >: >I go to Philly or Atlantic City.
: >: >
: >
: > < stuff Mike didn't want to know deleted >
: >
: >
: >The fact that you don't care reinforces my point.
: So your point was what exactly? That you have no idea what society considers
: important information for a discussion on sexual orientation in comic books?
:
My point was, just as you don't care about my sexual preferences, although
the continuance of this thread suggests otherwise, I don't care about Ice Maiden's.
Or to be more precise I don't care to see it used as adoloescent titilation.
: >
: >: Mike, using Fred's account.
: >:
: >
: >If it really bothered you, why did you copy the offensive part and start a
: >new thread with it? Or did you just want to make sure that anyone who missed
: >it the first time had a chance to be equally upset by it?
:
: Because I have been using Usenet for longer than twenty minutes, and,
: therefore, have a rough idea of when the suject of a post no longer fits
: in a given thread.
:
That explains the new thread as opposed to adding to the old. It doesn't explain
why my post garnered a response of any kind from you, and it certainly doesn't
explain why the response was basically "I don't want to see this kind of thing,
but here's a copy of it for anyone who didn't see it."
--
Lou Bona
lb...@tgf.tc.faa.gov
Eric Wang
>"League of a Thousand Retcons", I love it. Half the DC universe could
>qualify and they could make Spidey an honorary member.
Hey, I said only ONE thousand! :-)
Eric Wang
wa...@sml0.ge.uiuc.edu
fredrick b. chary
>fch...@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (fredrick b. chary) writes:
>: So your point was what exactly? That you have no idea what society considers
>: important information for a discussion on sexual orientation in comic books?
>:
>My point was, just as you don't care about my sexual preferences, although
>the continuance of this thread suggests otherwise, I don't care about Ice Maiden's.
>Or to be more precise I don't care to see it used as adoloescent titilation.
No, the continuance of this thread suggests that I am trying educate a
terminally clueless person, who doesn't seem to realize that posting
matters which are usually taken to be private to a public forum is beyond the
pale.
>: Because I have been using Usenet for longer than twenty minutes, and,
>: therefore, have a rough idea of when the suject of a post no longer fits
>: in a given thread.
>:
>That explains the new thread as opposed to adding to the old. It doesn't explain
>why my post garnered a response of any kind from you, and it certainly doesn't
>explain why the response was basically "I don't want to see this kind of thing,
>but here's a copy of it for anyone who didn't see it."
Try to understand, even if it hurts. If I had not included the original
article, people wouldn't know what I was objecting to.
Mike, using Fred's account.
lbona
: I wrote about lbona's post:
: >> He was poking fun at the idea that some uptight DC execs and/or
: >> editors, possibly worried about their corporate image in this day
: >> and age, would take PC seriously and attempt to base a comic book
: >> around it. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You hit the nail on the head Eric.
: ma...@wam.umd.edu (Marc Singer) writes:
: >And I responded that the PC label is *meaningless*, as is any attempt,
: >jokingly or not, to hit the JLA book with it.
:
: You know that, I know that, I think lbona knows that. For me, the
: humor lay in the unnerving suggestion that somebody in DC doesn't
: know it. It's a nightmare scenario, after all. If "PC" was a truly
: inappropriate term to use, then wouldn't it be that much worse of a
: nightmare if DC actually did use it? That's the way I saw it.
:
The point is, I didn't say the JLA book was or wasn't PC. The comment
was basically "look where we could wind up if we got ridiculous".
: >The point isn't whether JLA is PC or not, whether lbona thinks it's PC
: >or not, or whether PC is inherently silly or not (which a lot of it
: >is); I jumped in and said that the very use of the PC label *in the
: >joke* was pointless and says a lot more about its paranoid users than
: >the people or comics it's applied to. ^^^^^^^^
:
: I admit I can't get into lbona's head, so I don't know if (1) he
: really is "afraid" of PC, and thus when he went looking for a
: maximally ludicrous adjective to use in his hypothetical title, some
: deep-seated fear in his psyche responded, "'PC'! Use 'PC'!", or (2)
: whether he only has the fairly harmless meme "PC is silly" stored in
: his memory, and he consciously used it in an off-hand manner to
: reinforce the silliness of his hypothetical title by using "PC" as a
: silly adjective. I instinctively adopted interpretation (2),
In this instance (2) is the right answer, I thought it was a completely
humorous use of the term. Obviously I was wrong.
: whereas you appear to have assumed interpretation (1). IMHO, his
: subsequent posts provide more support for (2). In any case, though,
: it seemed to me at the time, and still does, that you started the
: name-throwing by immediately accusing him of being paranoid in your
: first follow-up. Then he responded so as to reinforce (2), and you
: flamed him again based on (1). That's when I jumped in -- it looked
: to me like you mis-interpreted him twice in a row, mistakenly
: thinking that his statement "Wouldn't it suck if DC said 'X'" was a
: personal declaration of "I support 'X'" (sorry about this form of
: abbreviation -- I can dig up the quotes if you really want me to),
: and were throwing hostile names around in the process. You could
: have made your point about "PC"'s invalidity without accusing lbona
: of being "paranoid" and "worried" about it.
:
: >I believe the word is "Whoosh," Eric.
:
: Wrong F/X -- the "whoosh" sound is made only by jokes passing
: overhead. Or are you suggesting that your entire response was a
: joke? :-)
:
: The "whoosh" stuff is a tactic I've used before to try to make
: people step back and see the forest -- sometimes it works, sometimes
: it fizzles. You deflected it this time, so next time I'll have to
: resort to my F/X of Mass Destruction.
"Whoosh" I love it. Is that trademarked or public domain. I may have to use that
in the future.
:
: Eric Wang
: wa...@sml0.ge.uiuc.edu
--
Lou Bona
lb...@tgf.tc.faa.gov
Marc Singer
>:
>:
>: Wrong F/X -- the "whoosh" sound is made only by jokes passing
>: overhead. Or are you suggesting that your entire response was a
>: joke? :-)
>:
>: The "whoosh" stuff is a tactic I've used before to try to make
>: people step back and see the forest -- sometimes it works, sometimes
>: it fizzles. You deflected it this time, so next time I'll have to
>: resort to my F/X of Mass Destruction.
I'm suggesting that if you're still basing your thoughts on your sound effects,
then quite a few things are going to whoosh right on by you. Honestly, "a
tactic I've used before to make people see the forest"... I hope you don't
believe that, as it's usually been the most pointless flamers who have
tried to mythologize their own behavior. :)
Marc
Joseph T Arendt
In article <3sn2tg$1...@cville-srv.wam.umd.edu>,
Marc Singer <ma...@wam.umd.edu> wrote:
>Well, I thought METROPOLIS SCU was actually actively *avoiding* Maggie's
>gayness, and it wasn't well written either... but I agree, the regular
>Superbooks handle her sexuality very well without making a big deal about
>it. Very much *unlike* all these unsubtle innuendos in JLA about Fire.
>
I generally like how in the regular Superman comics, Maggie's
sexuality only comes up once in a while. Mostly, she is just there
being a good cop. However, just before her promotion, she
worries her sex life will be an issue, yet she doesn't keep it a secret
nor does she broadcast it. Luthor once threatened to blackmail her,
as I recall, but that got him nowhere. For the most part,
the issue doesn't come up.
I think this is good because I don't see how her sexual preference
would affect her doing a good job as a cop, as long as she has the
courage not to cave in under blackmail from someone like Luthor.
I probably shouldn't mention this in the DC universe newsgroup,
but I liked the handling of a gay character in Mike Grell's Jon
Sable. As with Maggie, this guy's homosexuality was there but
tended to be low-key.
And, something that really doesn't belong in the DC universe
newsgroup, I liked the little hints John Bryne had in the early Marvel
Alpha Flights about Northstar being gay.
Back to the DC universe. Didn't Jimmy or somebody try hitting on
Maggie and when Maggie said that he wasn't her type, it went over
his head? I thought it was funny, anyway. :-)
Joe
fredrick b. chary
>fch...@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (fredrick b. chary) writes:
>: >fch...@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (fredrick b. chary) writes:
>: >: So your point was what exactly? That you have no idea what society considers
>: >: important information for a discussion on sexual orientation in comic books?
>: >:
>: >My point was, just as you don't care about my sexual preferences, although
>: >the continuance of this thread suggests otherwise, I don't care about Ice Maiden's.
>: >Or to be more precise I don't care to see it used as adoloescent titilation.
>:
>: No, the continuance of this thread suggests that I am trying educate a
>: terminally clueless person, who doesn't seem to realize that posting
>: matters which are usually taken to be private to a public forum is beyond the
>: pale.
>
>
>Sorry, I don't buy that. If, as you say, you were "trying to educate me" a simple
>private e-mail would have sufficed. No, I think you were just trying to be
>"cool" and make a humorous, if lame, comment. Now you're upset because I had
>the audacity(sp) to try and explain the comment, so you're now trying to play
>it as though I'm a clueless newbie
Look , I don't care how long you've been online
or what sexual practices you enjoy or anything else. I just found your
revelation rather inappropriate, and *NEWS FLASH* other people have been
making the same sorts of comments lately, so I thought a public message would
encourage others not to be as forthcoming with their sexual practices. In
order to point that out, one has to post a general message, if you don't like
being called on the carpet publicly, I couldn't care less.
> and you're the grand guru of the net. Hate to
>burst your bubble Mike, but I've been on the net for about 5 years, maybe not as
>long as you, maybe longer, doesn't really matter. Point is, I'm not new to this and
>don't really need you to tell me what's appropriate. You don't like the "matter"
>which I posted, go play on Prodigy or AOL forums where they're likely to censor
>that kinda stuff.
No, I am going to educate you by means of public ridicule and peer
pressure such as is accepted practice here on Usenet. How long you have been
on Usenet is unimportant. How long I have been on Usenet is unimportant. What
is important is that you realize that you did something distasteful, and more
importantly that others do not emulate your little revelation. If you don't
like that, too bad :)
> < Flame off >
>
>By and large, everything I post is in language appropriate for anyone to read.
>Once in a while, an extreme example has to be given to make a point. After you
>cool down and turn off your flame thrower think about it. You seem to be a
>reasonably intelligent person, hopefully you'll see that that is a reasonable
>tact in a debate (arguement?).
I agree in principle, but I don't see how knowledge of your sexual practices
illustrated your point (which was rather inane in any case) at all. If people
want to talk about Fire and Ice being lesbians, they will. If they want to
care, they will. Your sexual practices were not an example which strengthened
your point. It was a non sequitur.
>Now back to my point, which your latest response supports. Ice Maiden's sexual
>preference is amoung those things, to qoute you, "which are usually taken to
>be private".
Try to understand, *THEY* *ARE* *MAKING* *AN* *ISSUE* *OF* *IT* *IN* *THE*
*COMIC* *BOOK*. That makes it of interest to the reader. On the other hand,
they only addressed her sexual orientation, not her *practices*. You addressed
practices. That's a difference.
>: >: Because I have been using Usenet for longer than twenty minutes, and,
>: >: therefore, have a rough idea of when the suject of a post no longer fits
>: >: in a given thread.
>: >:
>: >That explains the new thread as opposed to adding to the old. It doesn't explain
>: >why my post garnered a response of any kind from you, and it certainly doesn't
>: >explain why the response was basically "I don't want to see this kind of thing,
>: >but here's a copy of it for anyone who didn't see it."
>:
>: Try to understand, even if it hurts. If I had not included the original
>: article, people wouldn't know what I was objecting to.
>
>I can see your point there, but I still think that if you find the language
>objectional propagating it is a little hypocritical. By creating a new thread
>with it you just draw attention to something that you think shouldn't even be
>here.
I didn't find the language objectionable. I found the information unnecessary,
crass, and more than a little nonsensical. As to my calling attention
to something I don't think should be here, spot on. I don't want others to
make announcements of the same kind as yours, so it was necessary it this one
instance to show them your little confession.
lbona
: Look , I don't care how long you've been online
: or what sexual practices you enjoy or anything else. I just found your
: revelation rather inappropriate, and *NEWS FLASH* other people have been
: making the same sorts of comments lately, so I thought a public message would
: encourage others not to be as forthcoming with their sexual practices. In
: order to point that out, one has to post a general message, if you don't like
: being called on the carpet publicly, I couldn't care less.
If being "called on the carpet publicly" bothered me in the least I wouldn't
have continued this insipid debate. Let's turn things around a bit and I'll
try to educate you.
I hate to burst your bubble Mike, but you've a lot less chance of getting an
unmoderated newsgroup to conform to your sense of decency and proper standards
than congress does, and I don't rate their chances real high. I'll repeat what
I said before, if the occasional real-life comment that happens to make its way
onto the net bothers you, go play on Prodigy or AOL. Hey, maybe you could even
get a job as censor at one of them.
: No, I am going to educate you by means of public ridicule and peer
: pressure such as is accepted practice here on Usenet. How long you have been
: on Usenet is unimportant. How long I have been on Usenet is unimportant. What
: is important is that you realize that you did something distasteful, and more
: importantly that others do not emulate your little revelation. If you don't
: like that, too bad :)
Sorry Mike, peer pressure doesn't bother me in real life it sure as hell ain't
gonna bother me over the net. And if you really consider what you've written
to be "public ridicule" well, that's your call. If what I posted genuinely
offended you then I apologize. Does that mean I'll refrain from similar posts
in the future, or check with you or some standards commission before I post? No,
can't see that happening.
< more deleted stuff >
--
Lou Bona
lb...@tgf.tc.faa.gov
The Rebel
Maggie Sawyer in particular. In the Reign of the Supermen storyline,
when Bill Henderson becomes commissioner (sp.) she asks him why does he
have a problem with her running SCU, one of the things sge says, is it
becuase of my sexual orientation, i think that si an admission dont you?
Simon
\----------------------------------\
\ SIMON BEREST \ __
\ ============ \ | \
> sim...@mdx.ac.uk >------| \ ______
/ re...@dircon.co.uk / --- \_____/**|_|_\____ |
/ Tel: 0378 745-582 / \_______ --------- __>-}
/----------------------------------/ / \_____|_____/ |
* |
{0}
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.sys.uea.ac.uk/recreation/sport/thfc/supporters/simon.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DaveEpp
>fch...@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (fredrick b. chary) [actually Mike Chary]
writes:
>
>> Look , I don't care how long you've been online
>> or what sexual practices you enjoy or anything else. I just found your
>> revelation rather inappropriate, and *NEWS FLASH* other people have
been
>> making the same sorts of comments lately, so I thought a public message
would
>> encourage others not to be as forthcoming with their sexual practices.
In
>> order to point that out, one has to post a general message, if you
don't like
>> being called on the carpet publicly, I couldn't care less.
>If being "called on the carpet publicly" bothered me in the least I
wouldn't
>have continued this insipid debate. Let's turn things around a bit and
I'll
>try to educate you.
No, if being called on the carpet publicly didn't bother you, you would
have taken this idiotic discussion to e-mail and stopped wasting bandwidth
with it. (Before you say it, I know I'm wasting bandwidth as well, but I
felt someone should back Mike up publicly.)
>I hate to burst your bubble Mike, but you've a lot less chance of getting
an
>unmoderated newsgroup to conform to your sense of decency and proper
standards
>than congress does, and I don't rate their chances real high.
I think Mike was speaking for a lot of us when he said we didn't need to
know that. He wasn't trying to push his own standards on you, but rather
what he percieved the group's standards to be. Whether you've seen it or
not, there *have* been other posts along those lines, some more graphic
than yours and the overwhelming response from a majority of people has
been to shut-up about it. If you had simply said "I'm straight" I doubt
anyone would have cared, but by adding the oral sex part, you left
yourself wide open for critisism. Yes, this group is unmoderated, but it
is not alt.sex.do.me or alt.sex.what.I.enjoy. Most people on this
newsgroup don't care to see that kind of discussion and if Mike wants to
help keep things on topic, then I'm ready to back him 100%.
>I'll repeat what
>I said before, if the occasional real-life comment that happens to make
its way
>onto the net bothers you, go play on Prodigy or AOL. Hey, maybe you could
even
>get a job as censor at one of them.
Oh, bite me! If AOL was really this evil censoring God that you make it
out to be, I wouldn't have seen your message in the first place. Yes AOL
has a code of conduct and they do screen certain areas but that's not
because of some evil scheme to control people's minds and thoughts. They
are trying to position themselves as a "family-oriented" on-line service
where parents can feel safe to leave the kids. Would you want to drop
your kids off at a combination daycare center/porno shop? If you don't
agree with AOL and Prodigy's Terms of Service than don't use them, but
please stop bitching about them. Freedom of speech means you can say and
believe what you like, but it doesn't mean that you have the right to say
it in my house or on my property. And, no I don't work for AOL, but I'm
just sick of all the idiots complaining about it.
>Does that mean I'll refrain from similar posts
>in the future, or check with you or some standards commission before I
post? No,
>can't see that happening.
There is no standards commission here, just use common sense and
understand who your audience is. :) We're here to talk about comics. We
may talk a lot about what sexual practices Wonder Woman enjoys, but we
don't really care what you enjoy. :)
-Dave "Does anyone else see the irony in someone complaining about
censorship, whose posting from a government site?" Eppley
lbona
: lbona (lbona@saratoga) wrote:
: >fch...@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (fredrick b. chary) [actually Mike Chary]
: writes:
Are you a friend of Mike's or is that a guess as to his last name?
: No, if being called on the carpet publicly didn't bother you, you would
: have taken this idiotic discussion to e-mail and stopped wasting bandwidth
: with it. (Before you say it, I know I'm wasting bandwidth as well, but I
: felt someone should back Mike up publicly.)
:
Let's see, I'm doing a bad thing by wasting bandwidth, so to prove that, you
do the same thing. I don't want to try and divide this newsgroup, but I think
you'd find there are at least as many people on here that think Mike was out
of line for trying to tell me what I should or should not post as there are
that think I shouldn't have posted it in the first place.
: >I hate to burst your bubble Mike, but you've a lot less chance of getting
: an
: >unmoderated newsgroup to conform to your sense of decency and proper
: standards
: >than congress does, and I don't rate their chances real high.
:
: I think Mike was speaking for a lot of us when he said we didn't need to
: know that. He wasn't trying to push his own standards on you, but rather
: what he percieved the group's standards to be. Whether you've seen it or
his standards - his perception of the group standards - subtle difference
at best.
: not, there *have* been other posts along those lines, some more graphic
: than yours and the overwhelming response from a majority of people has
majority or vocal minority?
: been to shut-up about it. If you had simply said "I'm straight" I doubt
: anyone would have cared, but by adding the oral sex part, you left
The oral sex part was added to emphasize a point, not to be the point. Two
words put together, no descriptions, no details, just a phrase used to
emphasize a point.
: yourself wide open for critisism. Yes, this group is unmoderated, but it
: is not alt.sex.do.me or alt.sex.what.I.enjoy. Most people on this
: newsgroup don't care to see that kind of discussion and if Mike wants to
: help keep things on topic, then I'm ready to back him 100%.
This thread is about as off-topic as you can get. Taking one part of a
sentence and making such a big deal of it is not a good way to keep things
on topic.
: >I'll repeat what
: >I said before, if the occasional real-life comment that happens to make
: its way
: >onto the net bothers you, go play on Prodigy or AOL. Hey, maybe you could
: even
: >get a job as censor at one of them.
:
: Oh, bite me! If AOL was really this evil censoring God that you make it
Oohhh, "bite me" good one.
: out to be, I wouldn't have seen your message in the first place. Yes AOL
Okay, let me rephrase. Play on the AOL and Prodigy discussion areas, not the
areas where they connect to the Internet and say something to the effect of
"you are leaving our service area, what you see may be considered offensive by
some". Yes, I have accounts with both AOL and Prodigy, they both provide
services I use. I was not intending to knock them, just to point out that
they are sheltered environments.
: has a code of conduct and they do screen certain areas but that's not
: because of some evil scheme to control people's minds and thoughts. They
: are trying to position themselves as a "family-oriented" on-line service
: where parents can feel safe to leave the kids. Would you want to drop
I agree completely and think this is fine.
: your kids off at a combination daycare center/porno shop? If you don't
: agree with AOL and Prodigy's Terms of Service than don't use them, but
: please stop bitching about them. Freedom of speech means you can say and
: believe what you like, but it doesn't mean that you have the right to say
: it in my house or on my property. And, no I don't work for AOL, but I'm
I'm not in your house or on your property. If you choose to bring these
messages in, that's up to you.
: just sick of all the idiots complaining about it.
:
: >Does that mean I'll refrain from similar posts
: >in the future, or check with you or some standards commission before I
: post? No,
: >can't see that happening.
:
: There is no standards commission here, just use common sense and
: understand who your audience is. :) We're here to talk about comics. We
I think my audience is adult, not teen fanboys. I hope to keep it that way.
Adult fanboys (and girls) are fine.
: may talk a lot about what sexual practices Wonder Woman enjoys, but we
: don't really care what you enjoy. :)
:
: -Dave "Does anyone else see the irony in someone complaining about
: censorship, whose posting from a government site?" Eppley
Check the header again Dave, I'm posting from a technical site not a political
one. You'd need to go up several levels of management to find the censors. (g)
--
Lou Bona
lb...@tgf.tc.faa.gov
Henry R. Broaddus
dav...@aol.com (DaveEpp) writes:
> No, if being called on the carpet publicly didn't bother you, you would
> have taken this idiotic discussion to e-mail and stopped wasting bandwidth
> with it. (Before you say it, I know I'm wasting bandwidth as well, but I
> felt someone should back Mike up publicly.)
It would have been most appropriate for *Mike* to have used e-mail to
communicate his initial response. If someone posts something which is
inappropriate (which Dave is not guilty of, btw), the standard
procedure is for readers to send that person e-mail. How many times
does Tyg have to say this every time people start a thread from a "MAKE
MONEY FAST" post?
> I think Mike was speaking for a lot of us when he said we didn't need to
> know that. He wasn't trying to push his own standards on you, but rather
> what he percieved the group's standards to be.
Mike can speak for himself. I'm unwilling to let him speak for me, the
group, or even "a lot of us."
> Whether you've seen it or
> not, there *have* been other posts along those lines, some more graphic
> than yours and the overwhelming response from a majority of people has
> been to shut-up about it. If you had simply said "I'm straight" I doubt
> anyone would have cared, but by adding the oral sex part, you left
> yourself wide open for critisism.
Would being gay have opened him to criticism??? I certainly hope not.
>Yes, this group is unmoderated, but it
> is not alt.sex.do.me or alt.sex.what.I.enjoy. Most people on this
> newsgroup don't care to see that kind of discussion and if Mike wants to
> help keep things on topic, then I'm ready to back him 100%.
The post *was* "on topic." There's only one type of inappropriate post
here: one that has nothing to do with DC universe comics (unless it
involves "other media"). There is no accounting for personal taste,
and I like it that way.
-HB (Henry.R....@Dartmouth.edu)
"Imagination was given to us to compensate for what we are not; a sense
of humor to console us for what we are." - Sir Francis Bacon
DaveEpp
Mr. Bona and I have patched up our differences via e-mail. I figure since
I flamed him publicly, I owe him the decency of acknowldeging our truce
publicly.
However, I did want to address one issue brought up by Mr. Broaddus. I
would have addressed others, but I'm just too tired tonight to think up a
good rebuttal that won't get nitpicked to death :)
Henry R. Broaddus (Henry.R....@dartmouth.edu) wrote:
>dav...@aol.com (DaveEpp) writes:
>> If you had simply said "I'm straight" I doubt
>> anyone would have cared, but by adding the oral sex part, you left
>> yourself wide open for critisism.
>Would being gay have opened him to criticism??? I certainly hope not.
Do you really think that gay = oral sex? The word *gay* would have
replaced the word *straight*. Just so it's absolutely clear, here's what
my revised statement would have been: "If you had simply said "I'm gay" I
doubt anyone would have cared, but by adding the oral sex part...." So,
no, being gay would not have opened him to criticism, at least not on my
part. No slur against homosexuals was implied or intended.
-Dave "it's late, good night" Eppley