Kingsom Come: How Waid stole from Peter David!!
Vicious
In Kingdom Come, the scene where Captain Atom was split open seemed to
me to be awfully familiar to the scene in "The Last Avengers Story"
by Peter David in which The Hulk splits open Wonder Man to also
produce a nuclear explosion! I know that it is a bit trite, but it is
also true!
jnevins
he...@nando.net (Vicious) writes:
There is a difference between making use of the same general theme/motif,
and thievery/plagiarism. A shame you don't seem to know that.
jess
John Todd
In article <jnevins....@bgsuvax.bgsu.edu>, jne...@bgsuvax.bgsu.edu
(jnevins) wrote:
in a case like this, where does one make the difference? ripping open an
atomic powered character doesn't seem like a 'usual' story occurance.
doesn't it strike you as...odd?
john
SHADES031
<< In Kingdom Come, the scene where Captain Atom was split open seemed to
me to be awfully familiar to the scene in "The Last Avengers Story"
by Peter David in which The Hulk splits open Wonder Man to also
produce a nuclear explosion!>>
I thought it seemed familiar. It could be a coincidence--considering that
KC was already well into production when LAST AVENGERS STORY came out--but
then again, LAST AVENGERS STORY did appear in David's popular "But I
Digress" column years ago. (Back when it was assumed that it would never
see print.) I'm not saying anything either way, but it's an interesting
observation considering that KC reminded me more of LAS than any other
comic.
Edward Douglas
SHADES031
"The 0 is silent"
jnevins
jto...@cc.swarthmore.edu (John Todd) writes:
>In article <jnevins....@bgsuvax.bgsu.edu>, jne...@bgsuvax.bgsu.edu
>(jnevins) wrote:
>> he...@nando.net (Vicious) writes:
>>
>> >In Kingdom Come, the scene where Captain Atom was split open seemed to
>> >me to be awfully familiar to the scene in "The Last Avengers Story"
>> >by Peter David in which The Hulk splits open Wonder Man to also
>> >produce a nuclear explosion! I know that it is a bit trite, but it is
>> >also true!
>>
>> There is a difference between making use of the same general theme/motif,
>> and thievery/plagiarism. A shame you don't seem to know that.
>>
>> jess
>in a case like this, where does one make the difference? ripping open an
>atomic powered character doesn't seem like a 'usual' story occurance.
>doesn't it strike you as...odd?
In a case like this a) one gives the writer the benefit of the doubt; b)
one thinks about possible previous happenings - what, you think _Last
Avengers Story_ was the *first* time an "atomic-powered man" has been
cracked open in fiction or movies?; and c) one does NOT blindly accuse an
author of theft.
posts like that - or at least headers like that - are surely one of the
reasons Mr. Waid is only a lurker now, if that.
jess
Luke!
jto...@cc.swarthmore.edu (John Todd) coughed out:
>> >In Kingdom Come, the scene where Captain Atom was split open seemed to
>> >me to be awfully familiar to the scene in "The Last Avengers Story"
>> >by Peter David in which The Hulk splits open Wonder Man to also
>> >produce a nuclear explosion! I know that it is a bit trite, but it is
>> >also true!
>>
>> There is a difference between making use of the same general theme/motif,
>> and thievery/plagiarism. A shame you don't seem to know that.
>>
>> jess
>in a case like this, where does one make the difference? ripping open an
>atomic powered character doesn't seem like a 'usual' story occurance.
>doesn't it strike you as...odd?
>john
I haven't read the last 'vengers story, so these comments probably
won't make much sense...
Well, it depends how PAD used it. Did PAD make it the final, climactic
battle, or did it just sort of happen along the way? In KC, it seems
like they wanted to have Supes come back because of a major
catastrophe, and "splitting" Captain Atom seemed like an easy way to
accomplish the task. It was certainly more interesting than bad guy X
setting off a bomb or something...
Why don't you ask PAD how he feels about it? He's probably reading all
this stuff...
Hey, I think _I_ just aked him...
...I love ellipses...
Mazerki
What am "Kinsom Come" and where can me get a copy? (Be funny if "Come"
had a "K," HAW!)
------- Bizarro No. 1 -------
(You see these fingers snapping, Flash? That's my way of showing something
I like! That's why all the cats around here call me Snapper! *POW!* HAW
HAW HAW!!!)
Vicious
jne...@bgsuvax.bgsu.edu (jnevins) wrote:
>he...@nando.net (Vicious) writes:
>>In Kingdom Come, the scene where Captain Atom was split open seemed to
>>me to be awfully familiar to the scene in "The Last Avengers Story"
>>by Peter David in which The Hulk splits open Wonder Man to also
>>produce a nuclear explosion! I know that it is a bit trite, but it is
>>also true!
>There is a difference between making use of the same general theme/motif,
>and thievery/plagiarism. A shame you don't seem to know that.
>jess
Have you read The Last Avengers Story? It was the exactly the same!
So unless you know what you are talking about, keep your smartass
comments to yourself!
Just Joe
Take a look at the name on this guy's net address. Has Jesse Helms
revealed himself as a DC afficianado?
he...@nando.net (Vicious) wrote:
Jess made no reference to The Last Avengers Story, Mr. Helms. And
while his comments to you might have been 'smart', the only 'ass'
I've seen in this thread is you.
As for the real theme of this thread, splitting an atom is not a
new concept. And neither is cutting open a nuclear-powered
character with explosive results.
*Think* before you insult with accusations of plagarism, Mr. Helms.
A Stern Joe
Randy Lander
he...@nando.net (Vicious) wrote:
>So unless you know what you are talking about, keep your smartass
>comments to yourself!
Irony, thy name is Vicious.
rwla...@io.com<*>
My Home Page:http://www.io.com/~rwlander
This Post contains the opinions of one Randy Lander.
Had it been the biblical truth, your bushes would be
on fire.
Peter Bruells
>>>>> "Vicious" == Vicious <he...@nando.net> writes:
In article <4nnrcs$7...@castle.nando.net> he...@nando.net (Vicious) writes:
Vicious> In Kingdom Come, the scene where Captain Atom was split open
> seemed to me to be awfully familiar to the scene in "The
> Last Avengers Story" by Peter David in which The Hulk splits
> open Wonder Man to also produce a nuclear explosion! I know
> that it is a bit trite, but it is also true!
And the Batbots scene reminded me a lot of the Duckbots/Darkbots in an
episode of Darkwing Duck, in which a future Darkwing Duck turns all
grim and gritty and becomes Darkwarrior Duck, who has his city under
control?
[20:00 curfew, jaywalking is a jore crime, etc etc]
jnevins
he...@nando.net (Vicious) writes:
>jne...@bgsuvax.bgsu.edu (jnevins) wrote:
>>he...@nando.net (Vicious) writes:
>>>In Kingdom Come, the scene where Captain Atom was split open seemed to
>>>me to be awfully familiar to the scene in "The Last Avengers Story"
>>>by Peter David in which The Hulk splits open Wonder Man to also
>>>produce a nuclear explosion! I know that it is a bit trite, but it is
>>>also true!
>>There is a difference between making use of the same general theme/motif,
>>and thievery/plagiarism. A shame you don't seem to know that.
>>jess
> Have you read The Last Avengers Story? It was the exactly the same!
>So unless you know what you are talking about, keep your smartass
>comments to yourself!
Yes, I've read it. I do know what I'm talking about. And no, I won't
keep my smartass comments to myself. You aren't.
jess
Peter_...@cup.portal.com
I haven't read KINGDOM COME yet (I get my books from DC and so I'm
generally about three weeks or so behind you guys). But Mark Waid is
enough of a talent that he hardly has to swipe stuff from me. If he
has a similar sequence of events happening, I'm nonetheless confident
that it has a different impact and different ramifications. Just having
an atomic-powered person explode--indeed, having one bit of business
that's similar to something someone else did--is simply not enough to
justify a charge of plagiarism (well...it is to some people). From all
the reactions that KINGDOM COME has received, it seems to me that Mark
has come up with something new, original and distinctive; if, in the
course of that, there's one shtick that's similar to something in
LAS, well...*I* sure don't care.
DJS
Mazerki wrote:
>
> What am "Kinsom Come" and where can me get a copy? (Be funny if "Come"
> had a "K," HAW!)
Still think they should have called it" Krypto Comeback", but nobody listens
to a dog anyway...even if he is Super and in need of a regular job.
Krypto
"Big Dog! Big Dog! Bow Wow Wow!
We'll Fight Evil ! Now Now Now!" (Battle Cry of the SCPA)
Vicious
Peter Bruells <Peter....@informatik.uni-oldenburg.de> wrote:
>>>>>> "Vicious" == Vicious <he...@nando.net> writes:
>In article <4nnrcs$7...@castle.nando.net> he...@nando.net (Vicious) writes:
> Vicious> In Kingdom Come, the scene where Captain Atom was split open
> > seemed to me to be awfully familiar to the scene in "The
> > Last Avengers Story" by Peter David in which The Hulk splits
> > open Wonder Man to also produce a nuclear explosion! I know
> > that it is a bit trite, but it is also true!
>And the Batbots scene reminded me a lot of the Duckbots/Darkbots in an
>episode of Darkwing Duck, in which a future Darkwing Duck turns all
>grim and gritty and becomes Darkwarrior Duck, who has his city under
>control?
>[20:00 curfew, jaywalking is a jore crime, etc etc]
I think that it is some kind of conspiracy!!!!
Clint Flicker
Peter David said:
But Mark Waid is
> enough of a talent that he hardly has to swipe stuff from me.
I think that may not be the whole truth, as he already stole from Alan
Moore. In Mark's Deadpool Limited series he has Deadpool's mask stolen,
at which point Wade breaks down and starts screaming "My face! You stole
my face!" just a wee bit similar to Rorshach in Watchmen who continually
refers to his 'face'.
I don't like this sort of thing and it ruined the series for me. Fabian
Nicieza is the only one who could write Deapool for my money, BTW.
Thanx for listening to me rant,
Richard
--
/\_____/\ .
/ o o \ .
( == ^ == ) .
) - ( .
( ) .
( ( ) ( ) ) .
(__(__)___(__)__) .
Jelly Cat , Jelly Cat , what are they feeding you?
jnevins
rm...@waikato.ac.nz (Clint Flicker) writes:
>Peter David said:
>But Mark Waid is
>> enough of a talent that he hardly has to swipe stuff from me.
>I think that may not be the whole truth, as he already stole from Alan
>Moore. In Mark's Deadpool Limited series he has Deadpool's mask stolen,
>at which point Wade breaks down and starts screaming "My face! You stole
>my face!" just a wee bit similar to Rorshach in Watchmen who continually
>refers to his 'face'.
kOh, come -on-.
You think Moore was the first one to use the "you stole my face" line?
jess
Mark Waid
Thanks, Mr. David, for your support and kind words.
As a matter of record, neither Alex nor I read Peter's Last
Avengers Story until long after our work was at least
half-completed. (Nor, for that matter, had Alex read TWILIGHT, but
I think we've finally put to rest THAT ridiculous charge of
plagiarism...)
Alex DID call me after he'd read the Avengers story. He was on the
ledge outside his building with panic in his voice. I talked him
down by reminding him that our first issue was already completed
and that it was an unfortunate coincidence that we each had atomic
characters go kablooey, but it was too late to do anything about
it. Besides, I said, we're so clearly *not* ripping it off, we'll
be hard-pressed to find a place where someone would actually
accuse us of plagiarism.
That was, of course, before I discovered r.a.c. <G>
Michael Chary
Mark Waid <72102...@CompuServe.COM> wrote:
>Thanks, Mr. David, for your support and kind words.
>
>As a matter of record, neither Alex nor I read Peter's Last
>Avengers Story until long after our work was at least
>half-completed. (Nor, for that matter, had Alex read TWILIGHT, but
>I think we've finally put to rest THAT ridiculous charge of
>plagiarism...)
Perhaps, but my buddies God and St. John the Divine would like to have a
bit of a chat with you. Unfortunately for them, the devil has all the
lawyers.
>down by reminding him that our first issue was already completed
>and that it was an unfortunate coincidence that we each had atomic
>characters go kablooey, but it was too late to do anything about
>it. Besides, I said, we're so clearly *not* ripping it off, we'll
>be hard-pressed to find a place where someone would actually
>accuse us of plagiarism.
When was the last time anyone did a completely original comics story?
>That was, of course, before I discovered r.a.c. <G>
Oh, yeah, we're awful, don't see why you read us.
--
Court Philosopher and Barbarian, DNRC http://ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu/~fchary
"September 1993 has certainly lasted a long time." - Greg Morrow
"Gaaaaaaagggg" -- The Seattle Supersonics
"They have Superman, Batman and Rodman." - Sherone Wright on the Bulls
Luke!
fch...@ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu (Michael Chary) coughed out:
>>That was, of course, before I discovered r.a.c. <G>
>Oh, yeah, we're awful, don't see why you read us.
Hey, this is neat! Waid stays away for a really long time 'cuz he's
getting bashed, finally delurks to post something, and immediately
gets bashed again!
Michael Chary
Laddie, talk what you know. Waid and I are frienbdly acquaintances, and
he takes nothing I say seriosuly after I gave him a stroke at last year's
Chi con.
And that wasn't a bash.
Luke!
fch...@ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu (Michael Chary) coughed out:
>Laddie, talk what you know. Waid and I are frienbdly acquaintances, and
>he takes nothing I say seriosuly after I gave him a stroke at last year's
>Chi con.
Okay, so I'm talking through my hat- isn't misinformation and
distortion what rac.dc is all about?
Peter David
And now Mark is alleged to have ripped off Alan Moore's WATCHMEN.
And when WATCHMEN came out, many people observed the resemblances
between WATCHMAN and a novel called SUPERFOLK.
And so it goes.
PAD
Michael Denton
Well, after all this discussion, I went and found the supposed Twilight
proposal in order to compare. And while I've only read the first issue,
the setup makes it clear....
KC IS NOT a plagarism of Twilight. Sure, similarities exist; mainly, the
apocolyptic (sp) superhero end, but that seems to be about it, folks. A
few other elements may be similar, but otherwise and in the grand scope,
Nope.
Go forth Alex and Mark and show all (and prove me) and yourselves right!
I DO want to see Twilight produced, though! What a great script. And,
having read it and knowing the surprises, I still want to see it in print.
Of course, DC probably won't but....
Michael Denton
mde...@westga.edu
Michael Denton
On 1 Jun 1996, Mark Waid wrote:
> As a matter of record, neither Alex nor I read Peter's Last
> Avengers Story until long after our work was at least
> half-completed. (Nor, for that matter, had Alex read TWILIGHT, but
> I think we've finally put to rest THAT ridiculous charge of
> plagiarism...)
>
After all this debate, Ifound and read Twilight. And while I've only seen
the first volume, KC is CLEARLY NOT a plagarism of Twilight. Some
similarities exist, but the differences are glaring and obvious.
I would like to see Twilight in print, now, though....
Keep up the good work, Mark and Alex!
Michael Denton
mde...@westga.edu
M...Coale
Peter David <72550...@CompuServe.COM> writes:
>And so it goes.
Unless I missed a thread here or there, Im surprised no one
has claimed Mark ripped off Greunwald's Squadron Supreme
mini-series.
what would have happened to Shaekspeare if the net was around during
the Elizabethan era? "Shakespeare is ripping off all of these plays
from historical texts. what about accuracy?" :>
mlc
doug hugo
It's sad when, despite the assurance of ALL the writers involved (Moore, David,
and Waid), this is still going on. Oh, well. It does make for good reading,
though.
In Christ,
Doug - trying in vain to get his favorite stinker onto the MST3K Survey
results!
hu...@ecn.purdue.edu
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
doug hugo (hugo) wrote:
: It's sad when, despite the assurance of ALL the writers involved (Moore,
: David, and Waid), this is still going on.
People are VERY eager, for whatever reason, to cry "plagiarism" lately.
Maybe it's something in the air. Or in their water.
There is a GREAT difference between stealing a plot idea and two (or
more) people USING similar elements in their plots. Apparently nuances
like this are too subtle for the accusers, whose only motivation-- near
as I can figure it-- is to pump themselves and their "perceptiveness" up
while putting down professionals.
: Oh, well. It does make for good reading, though.
Well, it did the first half-dozen times, perhaps-- and I'm still
chuckling at Waid's response-- but it gets tiresome. Plagiarism, like
slander, is a very serious charge, and most of the time people making
such accusations have no idea what they're talking about.
- Elayne
--
E-Mail me, the "Firehead Head," for more info about the official ()~~
Firesign Theatre newsletter, Four-Alarm FIRESIGNal, available via ##
snail mail or free online! "This replica... houses our guru, ##
Tiny Dr. Tim. Let's knock on the door and see if he's in..." _##_
Andrew Black
On 1 Jun 1996 13:41:15 GMT, Mark Waid <72102...@CompuServe.COM>
wrote:
>Alex DID call me after he'd read the Avengers story. He was on the
>ledge outside his building with panic in his voice.
Dammit, Mark. *Who* unchained Alex from his drawing board?!
Andrew Black abl...@melbpc.org.au
"THIS!" - Anagramatical wail of soon-to-be-ex Lip-Man
Doom Patrol 32
Alan Turniansky
Peter David (72550...@CompuServe.COM) wrote:
: And now Mark is alleged to have ripped off Alan Moore's WATCHMEN.
: And when WATCHMEN came out, many people observed the resemblances
: between WATCHMAN and a novel called SUPERFOLK.
And Moore's "Last Superman Story" also took some major plot points from
_Superfolk_.
And come to think of it, so did his "Twilight" proposal.
In fact, in the proposal that's out there on the Web (I don't know if it's
the genuine goods or not, but it sure seems that way), Moore refers to
DC's characters as "superfolk" more than once.
Conclusion: Moore either read, or was at least familiar with that book.
But what he *did* with those plot points is something altogether
different than what was done in _Superfolk_, because he was making
entirely different points.
And, I suspect, the point of Kingdom Come will be something different
than what the point of "Twilight" was. Or "Watchmen". Or "Last Avengers
Story".
: And so it goes.
: PAD
--
Alan Turniansky
p018...@pbfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us
Kevin J. Maroney
p018...@pbfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us (Alan Turniansky) wrote:
>And Moore's "Last Superman Story" also took some major plot points from
>_Superfolk_.
Actually, I've seen a highly-respected net.poster publicly accuse
Moore of plagarism for that story--although I can't remember if that
precise word was used, that was certainly the tone of the piece.
--
Kevin J. Maroney | Crossover Technologies | ke...@crossover.com
Games are my entire waking life.
cma...@cts.com
Elayne:
Well, at least I didn't start it this time. :) I only commented about how I
didn't like Waid's LSH changes some time ago -- never thought that he
plaguarized.
Actually, I like "Kingdom Come". I just wish it had more events in it: which
is my complaint about most comics today. I don't feel that I am getting my
money's worth. All I want is just a few more pages and then I would be
satisfied.
Keith
abl...@melbpc.org.au
fire...@panix.com
Loki Carbis
Alan Turniansky (p018...@pbfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us) wrote:
: Peter David (72550...@CompuServe.COM) wrote:
: : And so it goes.
: : PAD
"And so it goes." ... Hey, wait a minute! That phrase comes
from Kurt Vonnnegutt's "Slaughterhouse Five"! PAD's a plagiarist too?
<g,d,r>
Is there something in the water in racdu? Let it go, people.
Believe me, when we do find a gen-u-whine plagiarist, I'll be at the head
of the lynch-mob. But until then, can we drop this?
Or at least put it on hold until the rest of KC comes out?
Please?
Loki
--
--
"Damn! Have you seen my air guitar? I'm always losing it!"
Loki the Unsworn : lo...@daemon.apana.org.au