JLA/Avengers #3 annotations
Tom Galloway
coming up....
Annotations for JLA/Avengers #3 follow. I didn't try to id every character
in every panel, especially the various Avengers and JLAers; I figure the
cover guide thread ids all of those. I also didn't track every costume
change that Perez tossed in, only the most significant or obscure. And yes,
Kurt and/or George managed to toss in at least two scenes/characters that
I couldn't identify; they're noted.
Massive spoilers, of course...
Page 1: The Promethian Giants, a living wall made of the giant forms of
those who've tried to control/learn the secrets of the Source. Both the
Giants and Source first appeared in Jack Kirby's New Gods comic. Offhand,
no one but Doom (who of course isn't from around the DCU parts) stands out
as recognizable. But given Kurt and George's track record, they're probably
Giants originally drawn by Kirby.
Page 2: Yep, Doom's not from around here. The DCU and Marvel U. are still
two separate universes. The choice of Hawkeye as an Avenger who moved to
the DCU and got involved with Black Canary is an interesting one. As we'll
learn later, this DCU and MU are positioned as similar to the pre-Crisis
DCU Earth-1 and Earth-2, but the DCU is, in this case, the post-Crisis
style integrated original Earth-1 and Earth-2. So the Justice Society was on
the same Earth as the Justice League, and presumably Black Canary is the
post-Crisis version who's the daughter of the 1940s BC. Since this looks
like the 70s version of the JLA and Wonder Woman is there, it appears in
this DCU Wonder Woman and Black Canary may both have been founding members
of the JLA.
Now, pre-Crisis, the set-up was that Black Canary moved from Earth-2 to
Earth-1 and joined the JLA after her husband was killed. She then got
involved with Green Arrow. While it's not stated, since Hawkeye's wife,
Mockingbird, was killed in the mainstream MU, he may have had similar
reasons for moving from the MU Earth to the DCU Earth. If Kurt had wanted
to be explicit about this, he could've also had Hawkeye mention that
Mockingbird (who, btw, is similar enough to Black Canary to be an effective
MU analogue) was killed by Aquarius. While the MU-proper Mockingbird was
killed by Mephisto, the Aquarius would be a nice in-joke since BC's husband
was killed by a DCU character named Aquarius, and there's also an Avengers
foe named Aquarius.
Green Arrow's change of Hawkeye to Hawkman when the dimensional feedback
hits isn't just due to the similarity of names. In the 1970s JLA, GA and
Hawkman often argued and feuded, similar to how GA was complaining about
Hawkeye (well, except that Hawkman was married to Hawkwoman, and GA wouldn't
have been jealously complaining about Hawkman's romantic life).
Page 3: Again by the 1970s, the JLA had an interdimensional communicator and
transporter to Earth-2. More establishing that the DCU and MU are now like
Earth-1 and Earth-2.
Page 4: Boy are those two universes getting close; Eternity has traditionally
been used to symbolize containing the whole MU, while Kismet has more
recently had something of a similar role in the DCU. Make your own jokes
about the Big Bang theory of universe creation ("A daddy universe and a
mommy universe loved each other *very* much...").
Page 5: Looks like this is the 80s timeframe; for a while there, the Avengers
were headquartered on Hydrobase off the coast of NYC, rather than the classic
and current Avengers Mansion. Hydrobase was an artificial island created
by Sub-Mariner foe Dr. Hydro, later used as a research base by Avengers ally
Stingray. That's the 80s version of Brainiac's ship in the ocean, and the
general line-up and costumes are 80sish (well, save that Hank tended to be
Yellowjacket more than Ant-Man during this period). And as stated in the
past, both Kurt and George wished they could've used the bouncing and
bodacious Beast more in their run on the regular Avengers book.
Side note: Googol is a number consisting of 1 followed by a hundred zeros.
A googolplex is 1 followed by a googol of zeroes. Note that Kurt spelled
this correctly; Google the search engine is a deliberate misspelling of
googol the number. The Google HQ is called the Googleplex.
Page 6: Sue is Ralph (Elongated Man) Dibny's wife. Their friendship here with
Hank and Jan Pym isn't surprising, as Kurt's mentioned that he views both
couples as having a Nick and Nora Charles (from the Thin Man book and movies)
type of marriage and lifestyle (well, the detecting and adventuring parts,
not the drink like an entire school of fish parts. No little dog either).
Other pairings: Kurt also really likes Iron Man and Green (Hal Jordan)
Lantern, and during the Amalgam comics which combined aspects of DCU and MU
heroes wrote "Iron Lantern" combining aspects of the two. Thus the handshake.
Flash here is scientist Barry Allen, so he and scientist Beast would be
likely to hit it off...although a particle accelerator really isn't up either
Beast's biochemical or Flash's forensic science specialty alleys. Beast is
probably interested in it due to possible mutation leads, and Flash probably
accelerates particles in his spare time :-).
Thor and Wonder Woman of course both have mythological pantheon connections,
as well as the whole warrior society thing.
Couples Green Arrow & Black Canary and Vision & Scarlet Witch seem to be
talking. Other than couplehood, they don't really have that much in common.
Cap and Superman are glaring at each other. We're back to issue #1 of these
guys acting peeved in general.
Edwin Jarvis is the former butler of Tony (Iron Man) Stark and now the
Avengers' butler. Green Arrow clearly knows enough about Iron Man to know
that Iron Man is supposedly an employee of Stark's, but not enough to know
that he is Stark. Given GA's leftist leanings, him having problems with
servants and a former munitions maker industrialist like Stark are in
character.
And leading into page 7, more fun interaction between archers and hotheads
Hawkeye and Green Arrow.
Page 7: Panel 3 has various group pictures of mixed JLAers and Avengers,
leading into panel 4's redo of the classic cover to JLA #21. That story
had the Earth-1 JLA meeting the Earth-2 JSA for the first time (at least
as a group; Flash of Earth-1 had already met several members of the JSA
in a previous solo adventure). Interestingly, George (or Kurt) decided to
put the Avengers in the same relative position as the JLA in the original
cover, with the JLA appearing where the JSA appeared in the original.
The picture also confirms that Black Canary joined before she did in the
pre-Crisis DCU; while Green Arrow was very briefly still in his original
costume when BC joined there, the Martian Manhunter had resigned. It's
also the case that as of JLA #21, Hawkman had not joined yet in the pre-Crisis
DCU.
The Avengers line-up/costumes is also a bit problematic. Vision doesn't join
until Avengers #58, at which point the Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver are
not active members. As of #60, Hank Pym changes ids from Goliath (as shown
here) to Yellowjacket, and doesn't wear the blue and yellow duds again until
donning similar garb early in the current Avengers run. He and the Wasp
leave the team in #75, with the Witch and Quicksilver rejoining in that
issue...but Pietro is still in his original green outfit for at most one
issue there before changing the green to light blue. Clearly things are
a bit different in these universes other than just the Earth-1/Earth-2 like
setup.
The mention of JSA/Invaders team-ups indicates that the JSA existed on this
JLA's Earth (although it's not totally sure due to how Wonder Woman says it).
These teams existed on the respective Earths in WWII; Captain America was
a member of the Invaders, and ended up in a block of ice in suspended
animation near the end of WWII. He was revived in the "present day" in
Avengers #4 and joined the Avengers.
Page 8: OK, the memberships are getting really strange here. They're now in
the classic 70s/80s JLA HQ, a satellite in, as is pointed out on page 9,
geosynchronous orbit (circa JLA #78 through #240, at which point the
satellite was destroyed for the first time, before being destroyed *real*
good during Crisis). However, Guy Gardner was never a League member or
had that haircut or uniform during this period, nor was Blue Beetle a member
(another indication the DCU here has post-Crisis aspects though, as BB wasn't
on Earth-1 or even part of the overall DCU until Crisis). Elongated Man's
also in a post-Crisis costume...as it starts becoming apparent that George
isn't going to stop with just showing every Leaguer and Avenger in each of
their ids, but is making a valiant effort at showing the different outfits
as well (although he can't manage all of the Wasp's, or all of Wanda's tiaras;
the man's only human after all :-)).
Party animals (no pun intended) Beast, Hercules, and She-Hulk are all into
the luau theme with Hawaiian shirts and sarongs (the Wasp at this rough
point was in transition from party girl to significant leader, so being sort
of half saronged also works). I want to know who got a lei on Batman.
Down at the grill, we've got JLA honorary member Snapper Carr and Avengers
honorary member Rick Jones, both (at the time) teenagers who helped out their
respective teams in their first published adventure. Peter David in particular
has played up their similarity over the years.
So, if Wonder Woman beats Wonder Man in arm wrestling "every year", it'd
appear the top level strength in the DCU is a bit above that of the MU...
although it doesn't appear to be a quick match.
Note the cake behind Iron Man has a combo JLAvengers logo.
More Hawkeye and Green Arrow hijinks.
Page 9: Traya was a Lebanese (originally; now Quraci) orphan that the android
Red Tornado adopted. Naturally, the married android Vision and Scarlet Witch
are interested in this approach to an android being a parent.
The Atom's costume is out-of-sync with standard DCU history. He wore this
outfit during his "Sword of the Atom" period, during which he was thought
dead by the JLA and the rest of the DCU (save for the small sized alien
city in the Amazon jungles where he was living; long story) and so wouldn't
be at a casual party.
In the MU, Moondragon has used her mental powers to reorder jerks' thought
processes before, most notably Quicksilver during the Korvac saga. Although
not because Pietro was hitting on her. Guy Gardner hitting on her and being
a jerk about it is in character for his Crisis/Post-Crisis personality.
Now it's Superman's turn to think this is all out-of-sync.
Page 10: Oooh, more Hawkeye/Green Arrow rivalry, even as the dimensions
shift again.
In panel 4, the first picture is Howard and Maria Stark, along with son Tony.
Avengers Mansion was originally the Stark family house, and the Avengers
are funded by the Maria Stark Foundation, as set up by Tony (Iron Man) Stark
after his parents' deaths. The next photo is a shot of the Avengers' founders,
including the Hulk. Also gives George a chance to draw Iron Man's mark II
armor, which was his bulky mark I gray armor painted gold.
More indications that this is a bit off; by the time many of these folk
became Avengers, Ms. Marvel had not only changed her outfit from her original
one shown here, but had become Binary and was off in deep space.
Page 11: Panel two. I'm thinking this is how George gets a picture of the
lamest Avengers member ever, Moira Brandon, into this. She was "inducted"
as an honorary member as she was dying in a West Coast Avengers back-up
story. No powers, only appearance anywhere ever, etc. I believe she's the
woman in the painting.
Also, another indication things are off; Vibe was dead by the time many of
these post-Legends Leaguers such as Fire and Rocket Red were inducted.
Amazo and Ultron are android and robotic foes of the JLA and Avengers
respectively. From the "trapped within each others headquarters" and
switching worlds comment, this is likely the first JLA/Avengers team-up
in this universe, since the plot is similar to the first JLA/JSA Earth-1
Earth-2 team-up which that picture a few pages back invoked. Except that
in the JLA/JSA story, it was three, non-robotic, villains from each
world who were the adversaries.
Ultron has had a tendency to add version numbers to his name. Curiously,
in established Avengers history, he pretty much went straight from 1 to 5;
I don't believe the "usual" Avengers ever fought an Ultron-4 (save perhaps
when Ultron made duplicates of his earlier versions).
Amazo, btw, has the power to duplicate others' powers. Thus the power ring
and shield combo. There is a similar android in the MU, the Super-Adaptoid,
who has fought the Avengers although nowhere near as much as Ultron.
Page 12: OK, the Grim Reaper is an Avengers foe, who is the brother of
Avenger Wonder Man (and sort of the Vision, since Vision's brain patterns
are based on Wonder Man's). The Key is a JLA foe. The Serpent Crown is an
artifact from the MU that both grants immense power to its wearer, but also
is a conduit for a serpent god from ancient times. However, the adventure
involving them seems to be this universe's version of the Avengers' Celestial
Madonna plot, which had Kang kidnapping Avenger hanger-on Mantis and
the Scarlet Witch (as well as the Witch's mentor Agatha Harkness) in the
belief that one would be the Celestial Madonna whose child would have a huge
impact on the universe. Here, magician Zatanna seems to have been subbed in
for the Scarlet Witch as a candidate. As a side note, at the time of the
Celestial Madonna storyline in the MU, Hellcat did not yet exist as a heroic
identity (and Hellcat has actually fought with the Avengers in around two
stories). And John Stewart, prior to being in the recent JLA issues, had
previously had only one League adventure in the main DCU, which was not
a JLA/JSA crossover.
Second panel? Well, that's a redrawing of one of the pieces of art released
20 years ago when George first drew an Avengers/JLA crossover. It, of course,
didn't come to fruition due to inter-company politics. The caption pretty
much describes the plot as released at the time.
Page 13: Ah, now we start having fun. The villains on the main monitor are
early Avengers foes the Masters of Evil...but they way and place they're
imprisoned, down to the warning signs, are how the Crime Syndicate of
Earth-3 were imprisoned at the end of the second JLA/JSA team-up.
The small monitor screens show (on the left by itself) Apocalypse of the MU,
(top to bottom on left) Mr. Mxyzptklk [DCU], Loki [MU], Kanjar Ro [DCU],
Ares [MU], Grey Gargoyle [MU], Cheshire [DCU], (top to bottom on right)
Taskmaster [MU], Killer Frost [DCU], Korvac [MU], ???, Ultra-Humanite [DCU],
and Bizarro [DCU]. Anyone know who the bald guy with glasses and a goatee
is? Btw, there are some serious power level differences in these characters.
And in the last panel, the blond in the blue outfit is Aquaman, in a used
only in a mini-series costume. This was designed by the writer of that
mini-series, Neal Ponzer. Ponzer has since died, and in tribute his SO,
Phil Jimenez, redesigned Aquaman's former sidekick's (originally Aqualad,
now Tempest) outfit to have the same general appearance, but in red and black
rather than shades of blue.
Page 14-15: Nothing to annotate here, move along...
Page 16: Aquaman only started wearing the costume shown here after he lost
his left hand, and had a harpoon (*not* a hook) attached as a replacement.
The Daily Planet globe is usually at the top of the Daily Planet building
in Metropolis in the DCU. I can't quite make out the name of the gallery
in the sign above Vision and Aquaman's heads in the last panel, and what
I can see isn't triggering any recognition of past creators' names.
Page 17: All DCU villains. Going from left to right: Silver Swan (Wonder
Woman), Killer Croc (Batman), Shrapnel (general purpose, first foe of the
second version of the Doom Patrol), Mammoth (Titans), Bloodsport (Superman),
Sonar (Green Lantern), Silver Banshee (Superman), Poison Ivy (Batman).
Page 18-20: Fight/action scenes.
Page 21: Note the Daily Bugle building, MU's most mentioned newspaper in
panel 2. And, of course, Flash having limited/fading powers in the MU was
established back in #1. Presumably the implied merging is why he has any
extra speed at this point.
Page 23: Note the Yancy Street sign in panel 4. Home to the Yancy Street
Gang, friendly nemesis to the Thing.
Page 24: Panel 1 has a "Beck Street" sign, presumably after longtime
Captain Marvel artist C.C. Beck.
Page 27: Green Lantern saw Krona die most sincerely dead in the first
Green Lantern Corps mini-series.
Page 30-31: Similar scenes of merging, or almost merged, parallel Earths
have previously appeared in various JLA/JSA team-ups, and of course in
Crisis on Infinite Earths. Not sure why one Moon has chunks out of it
while the other appears intact though.
Page 33: The bit about other heroes giving their psychic strength and effort
to the Witch (and in this case GL) reminds me of a similar scene from
Avengers v3 #4, also done by Kurt and George.
Page 35: That outfit of Hawkeye's was only worn by him from around Avengers
#98-109. The subtle change to Wonder Woman's outfit is the return of her
original eagle as opposed to a stylized WW eagle like chest emblem.
Page 36: Not sure why Aquaman's so hostile towards the Phantom Stranger, but
the Stranger's "I am a member of the Justice League, am I not" was first
used, if I recall correctly, in one of Steve Englehart's JLA stories. The
Stranger's membership started out somewhat in question. At the end of a
pseudo-DCU/MU crossover involving the JLA, the Beast, and Thor where the
three writers (Steve Englehart, Gerry Conway, and Len Wein) were shown going
to the Rutland, VT Halloween festivities and appeared in all three stories
with something of a common plot thread (in one of the Marvel stories,
their car loses its muffler. In the JLA story, Felix Faust steals the car
and gets pulled over for not having a muffler), the Stranger was voted
membership. But when the JLA members turned around to offer it to him
(having huddled up for the vote), he'd disappeared. He's been a sporadic
member at best over the years.
Page 39: Figures that games-obsessed Grandmaster would end up in a
checkerboard patterned box. This might also be a meta-reference to the time
in the 60s when DC books had a few lines of similar black and white
checkerboard style "go-go checks" across the top of their front covers.
Page 40: A JLA/JSA team-up where Earth-1 and Earth-2 were colliding had
Earth-2's Spectre putting himself between the colliding Earths to hold them
apart. Not quite what's happening here with Krona, but it did invoke the
memory.
Page 41: Yeah, the Phantom Stranger has a habit of disappearing once his
work is done.
Page 42-43: Damn you Busiek and Perez...:-)
OK, starting from the series of images the Wasp is at the top of and going
clockwise, top to bottom among each set. Most (all?) of these are very
specific scenes, but I'm not going to try to do issue numbers.
Set One: One: The Eradicator, one of four replacements that popped up when
Superman was killed, he started as an energy projection from a Kryptonian
artifact, but currently the artifact is merged with a Terran. Two: From the
Siege of Avengers Mansion storyline, the Masters of Evil have taken over
the Mansion and captured Jarvis. Shown from left to right are Moonstone,
Absorbing Man, Goliath (v. 3, no relation to the two Avenger Goliaths),
Blackout, Mr. Hyde, Tiger Shark, Piledriver, Thunderball. They're going to
be torturing Jarvis in a minute. Three: the current incarnation of the Justice
Society of America, consisting of left to right first row Black Canary,
Mr. Terrific, Stargirl, Dr. Mid-Nite, Wildcat, Sand, Flash I, and back row
Dr. Fate, Hawkgirl, Atom Smasher, and Green Lantern I. Four: Ultron triumphant
after killing off a whole country. Cover of Avengers #23 or so of the current
run. Five: Iron Man in his undersea armor; don't recall the specific scene.
Set Two: One: Batman finding a killed by the Joker Robin. Two: Green Arrow
going up against Solomon Grundy from Brad Meltzer's Archer's Quest storyline
circa Green Arrow #15. Three: The Perez co-created New Teen Titans; Kid Flash,
Starfire, Cyborg, Changeling, Wonder Girl, Robin, and Raven. Four: The
Busiek "created" Thunderbolts. Actually the Masters of Evil in disguise
as heroes when the Avengers were thought dead. Kurt created their disguised
ids and the concept, but not the original characters. From left to right:
MACH-1 aka Beetle, Songbird aka Screaming Mimi, Citizen V aka Zemo,
Meteorite aka Moonstone, Techno aka the Fixer, and Atlas aka Goliath III.
Set Three: One: Jack Knight aka Starman, a DCU hero. Two: The Kree Supreme
Intelligence. I suspect this is from Operation Galactic Storm where a team
of Avengers set out to, and thought they had, killed the SI due to his having
performed genocide on 90% of the Kree, but am not sure. Three: The current
versions of DCU heroes Hawkman and Hawkgirl. Don't even ask me to explain
their history. Four: Something exploding. Five: Exodus kidnapping Luna, the
daughter of Quicksilver and Crystal (an Inhuman, also an Avenger. She's the
redhead next to Quicksilver; the one behind them is X-Man Jean Grey).
Set Four: One: Onslaught, a merged Professor Xavier of the X-Men and his
for Magneto who was thought for a time to have killed the Avengers and
Fantastic Four (actually, they were shunted to a pocket dimension with
an Earth created by Mr. Fantastic and the Invisible Woman's son Franklin
Richards (whose power level varies from universe-shaking to non-existant)).
Two: Lex Luthor taking the oath of office as President of the United States.
Three: Avenger Sersi attacking Proctor, an alternate Earth version of
Avenger the Black Knight. Long story.
Set Five: One: OK Kurt, George, this is the other one where you've got me;
no idea what this is from or who's in it. Two: Remember that pocket dimension
where the Avengers went post-Onslaught battle? This is what Thor, the
Witch, and Cap looked like there. Three: Metamorpho, a DCU character. While
he later joined the JLA, he's notable in this context for being the first
invitee to turn down membership. Four: (yeah, it's there. Look on either
side of Cap's left arm) What's probably a group shot of Young Justice, a
DCU group of teen heroes recently disbanded. Shown, from left to right,
are Arrowette and Empress.
Set Six: One: John Stewart as Green Lantern. Can't tell where the scene
comes from. Two: Justice League One Million, from one million months in
the future. DC did a linewide stunt where each comic was numbered
1,000,000. From left to right, Starman, Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman,
Hourman, Flash, Aquaman. Three: Captain America vs. The Captain. This was
the climax of a storyline where the US government took away the uniform
and id from Steve Rogers since they were government property and he declined
to be a government employee. They gave the id to John Walker, aka
Super-Patriot. Meanwhile, Rogers adopted the id of The Captain. Walker wasn't
up to the CA role, and there was various government manipulation by the
Red Skull to boot. After the scene shown here, Rogers became a free agent
Captain America again, and Walker got the Captain costume and became
USAgent. His outfit's since changed, and he now acts as a metahuman federal
marshall. He was also in the Avengers for a period, although he's not well
liked by the most of the rest of the team.
Set Seven: One: Vision taking over the world by taking control of Earth's
computers. Circa Avengers #244. Two: Nightwing (aka Robin I) kissing Oracle
(aka Batgirl) after taking her trapeze flying. Backstory on this is that
Nightwing is a former circus acrobat, and Oracle is a paraplegic due to
being shot by the Joker. So the trapeze bit was Nightwing's attempt to let
her enjoy freedom of movement/flying. Three: Thor and Beta Ray Bill, who
having proved himself worthy of the power of Thor was granted his own
hammer and power by Odin, fighting demons during an attempt by Surtur to
cause Ragranok.
Page 44: Not even going to try to do issue numbers for all of these.
Panel 1: Destruction of Hydrobase. Destruction of JLA satellite (although
I can't tell if it's the JLA #240ish one or the Crisis one).
Panel 2: The Thor clone is Thunderstrike, a mortal who shared bodies with
Thor for a while, then when separated was given his own Asgardian mace and
Thorlike power form. The League shown there is the classic Kevin Maguire
pose for the post-Legends League from Justice League #1. The other image
is Thanos of MU, pledging his love to the MU's personification of Death.
Panel 3: Cap almost died at one point due to problems with the super-soldier
serum that powers him. Near the end, he was wearing the armor shown here
to enable him to keep fighting. Directly behind him is a cover from around
Avengers #148 of the Avengers going up against the Squadron Supreme, the
JLA dopplegangers mentioned in a previous issue by Hawkeye. From top to
bottom, that's Dr. Spectrum (Green Lantern), Lady Lark (Black Canary),
Golden Archer (Green Arrow), Hyperion (Superman), and Whizzer (Flash). The
bottom image is a Sentinel, one of a series of mutant hunting robots in the
MU.
Panel 4: Not quite sure where the Wonder Woman and Iron Man images are from,
but the bottom one is a group shot of the General, Prometheus, and Queen Bee
from the second Injustice League from Grant Morrison's JLA run.
Panel 5: And speaking of his JLA run, that's a white Martian torturing
the Manhunter from the first Grant Morrison JLA storyline. Behind him is
a shot of Attuma, an Atlantean barbarian warlord from the MU. The Thing's
legs show up in the otherwise not visible image next to the Manhunter's
arm.
Panel 6: Top is a shot of Speedy (Green Arrow's sidekick) and Cheshire, an
international terrorist/mercenary. While Speedy was working undercover, they
fell in love and produced a daughter, Lian. Cue lots of soap opera since,
due to Cheshire not being anything close to reformed. The lower left corner
is a shot of the Hulk, based on the outfit its while the three major
Hulk/Banner personalities were merged into one. The central two panels show
Hank Pym (in the panels as Yellowjacket, watching this as Goliath) hitting
his wife, the Wasp, followed by an Avengers court-martial due to YJ (who
was basically having a mental breakdown) attacking an opponent after they'd
surrendered...and his hitting the Wasp came out during that. She then divorced
him. After quite a while, Hank dealt with his various problems. The two of
them are again romantically involved, but the Wasp recently declined a
proposal of remarriage. Note that the Wasp had been flitting from panel to
panel in the first six here, but stops at this one, not appearing again until
the fourth panel of the next page, where she and Hank are still looking at
an image together.
Page 45: Panel 1: Top left; the base of a statue of the Avengers founders,
dedicated after the team was thought dead for an extended period. Aquaman's
seeing his hand being eaten by piranhas, while fighting Charybdis. Um, one
problem. While the Aquaman watching the image is holding his left hand, which
is the one eaten in the original story (Aquaman #2, series before the current
one), the image is showing his right hand being eaten.
Panel 2: OK, this one's got some backstory. At one point, under the influence
of a computer from Titan, Vision tried to take over the world's computers.
While stopped and cured, various world governments were sufficiently nervous
that they kidnapped him and literally disasembled him. The image Vision is
looking at is after his memories and emotional underpinnings had been wiped,
but his body, save for skin covering, had been put back together. Next to
that is a Manhunter robot from the DCU. Short version there is that the
Manhunter robots were the Guardians of the Universe's first attempt to form
a universal police force, but they became corrupted. While cut loose from
the Guardians, who went on to form the Green Lantern Corps, the Manhunters
continued through millions of years to the present as an underground
organization and foe of the Guardians. Just about any character in the DCU
with the name "Manhunter" has been retconned to tie into these guys in some
way.
Panel 3: Wanda is freaking out over the combo of the first image showing her
and her husband the Vision having miraculously managed to have twin sons...
and the second image of the retcon that both sons were created by her
mystically and inadvertantly from parts of the soul of Master Pandemonium/
Mephisto (MP is shown there). She didn't take it well when it happened either.
Panel 4: Crisis on Infinite Earths #8. Flash is watching himself die while
stopping an anti-matter cannon from destroying the postivie matter universe.
Panel 5: Batman's three biggest failures. Going from right to left, his
back being broken by Bane, the death of the second Robin (Jason Todd) by
the Joker, and Azrael/Jean-Paul Valley, Batman's choice to replace him as
Batman after said back-breaking. As Batman, Valley's methods became
increasingly violent and over the line.
Panel 6: First image is the Odinsword after Odin (Thor's father) used it to
kill Surter...resulting in his own death. Second image is Hippolyta
(Wonder Woman's mother)'s death. Note, btw, that Hippolyta was for a time
a member of the JLA as Wonder Woman while Diana was being a goddess of truth
on Mount Olympus.
Page 46: Panel 1: Superman sees his death at the hands of Doomsday (the spiky
guy in the lower left image), along with three of the four "replacements"
who showed up afterwards. The top left is Hank Henshaw, aka the Cyborg
Superman aka Cyborg (not to be confused with the Titans' good guy Cyborg),
who would later be responsible for the destruction of Coast City which leads
to images in panel 3. Note that in his first appearance, Henshaw was a
Reed Richards doppleganger in a story with a similar to the FF origin; he
was the only survivor of the four FF dopplegangers in that story. Mostly
obscured in the upper right is Steel, an armored superhero. Between
Doomsday and the image of Clark Kent's wedding to Lois Lane is Superboy,
who's either a clone of Cadmus Project Director Westfield with genetic
tampering to simulate Kryptonian powers via "tactile telekinesis" or possibly
in a retcon a clone with the genetic material of both Superman and Lex
Luthor.
Panel 2: Hoo boy. The easy bit of this is the lower left shot of the first
"Tony Stark is an alcoholic" story. The top right is War Machine, Tony's
friend James Rhodes in a suit of armor given him after he'd been filling in
as Iron Man when Tony was in the gutter due to said alcoholism. There's also
a shot of Tony when he was paralyzed due to a murder attempt by a psychotic
ex-girlfriend. And then, in what I guess we had to see to get all the Avengers
in, a shot of "Teen Tony". To simplify enormously, it was retconned that Tony
had been under the control of an Avengers adversary for years, and in a
storyline called the Crossing it came to a head and Tony killed various
characters and fought the Avengers. At the end, the Avengers went back in
time and brought an alternative Tony from his teenage years before he'd
been controlled. The adult Tony was killed, and teen Tony stayed and became
Iron Man. This was *not* a popular period in Iron Man history, and when given
a chance to do so, Kurt retconned it into something somewhat more reasonable
and reestablished an adult Tony with the memories of both those previous
Tonys but not under anyone's control.
Panel 3: Hoo boy part two. In reaction to his home Coast City being destroyed,
even though stories showed all of his close friends not being there when
it happened and thus still alive, Hal Jordan went nuts. He defeated or killed
other GLs and took their rings (upper left) and destroyed the Central Power
Battery (middle right) while absorbing its power, taking the name Parallax.
He tried to reorder time itself, but failed. Dying in an attempt at
redemption by reigniting Earth's sun (it had been attacked and "eaten" by
the Sun Eater), he became the Spectre (lower left). The red skinned woman
at the top right is Katma Tui, another Green Lantern and eventual wife of
John Stewart. She was killed by Hal's foe Star Sapphire, who's an alternate
persona of Hal's main love interest Carol Ferris.
Page 48: Metron in his Moebius Chair is watching.
Finally, the composition of the teams at this point is interesting. On the
JLA side, you've got the classic seven Pre-Crisis founding members. On
the Avengers side, you have the classic five "founders" (Cap joined in #4,
but was granted "founder" status due to the Hulk only making it through
one story as a member [#2; while Hulk's in #1, the Avengers only form at
the very end of the issue]) plus general life of the book mainstays
Scarlet Witch and Vision (the 8th/9th [same time as Quicksilver, and
I don't count Wonder Man's one issue "membership" in #9 for this purpose]
and 12th [not counting Swordsman one issue "membership" in #20 for similar
reasons] to join, and up there at the top in terms of number of Avengers
issues they've appeared in).
tyg t...@panix.com
--
--Yes, the .sig has changed
Kinkodude
Galloway" <t...@panix.com> wrote:
> What the heck, it was a slow Wednesday night and there's a four day weekend
> coming up....
>
> Annotations for JLA/Avengers #3 follow. I didn't try to id every character
> in every panel, especially the various Avengers and JLAers; I figure the
> cover guide thread ids all of those. I also didn't track every costume
> change that Perez tossed in, only the most significant or obscure. And yes,
> Kurt and/or George managed to toss in at least two scenes/characters that
> I couldn't identify; they're noted.
>
> Massive spoilers, of course...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>
> Page 45: Panel 1: Top left; the base of a statue of the Avengers founders,
> dedicated after the team was thought dead for an extended period. Aquaman's
> seeing his hand being eaten by piranhas, while fighting Charybdis. Um, one
> problem. While the Aquaman watching the image is holding his left hand, which
> is the one eaten in the original story (Aquaman #2, series before the current
> one), the image is showing his right hand being eaten.
>
No, actually it's correct. Note the placement of the panel *in front of*
Aquaman's body. Although his viewing angle is weird, we're seeing the image
from behind, and it's transparent like a stained-glass window or Japanese
wallscroll. Ergo, what's we're seeing on panel is the mirror-image of what
Aquaman is seeing.
What clued me in was seeing Superman's reverse insignia in the last panel of
the page, which is shown on a screen that resides *in front of* Wonder
Woman. So, same concept.
-Steve
Johanna Draper Carlson
> Page 8
> Guy Gardner was never a League member or had that haircut or uniform
> during this period, nor was Blue Beetle a member
How could you have a League luau without them, though?
--
Johanna Draper Carlson
Reviews of Comics Worth Reading -- http://www.comicsworthreading.com
Mark J. Reed
On Thu, Nov 27, 2003 at 03:07:49AM -0500, Tom Galloway wrote:
> Um, one
> problem. While the Aquaman watching the image is holding his left hand, which
> is the one eaten in the original story (Aquaman #2, series before the current
> one), the image is showing his right hand being eaten.
But later we see an image of Superman with his S backward, so apparently
some of these images are mirror-reversed.
-Mark
N Leggatt
informative, well-written, and brought a smile to my face ("I want to
know who put a lei on Batman, indeed). Possibly, in this universe,
Batman's not as dark, to distinguish himself from the really dark MU
characters... :)
Off annotations, did anyone else think it odd that *only* Cap and
Supes were attuned to their real places, resulting in their edginess?
I'd think that if anyone is a truly archetypical MU inhabitant, it's
Spidey, one of the original "heroes with problems." I just can't see
Spiderman as a product of the DCU.
Anyway. Good job, again, Tom. Happy thankgiving everybody
N
Clem Clambake
"Tom Galloway" <t...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:bq4bcl$bks$1...@panix3.panix.com...
> Massive spoilers, of course...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Panel 6: Top is a shot of Speedy (Green Arrow's sidekick) and Cheshire, an
> international terrorist/mercenary.
I'm not sure this is correct. It looks like Wally West with his Flash cowl
pulled down, and his wife Linda.
Clem
R. Tang
>Massive spoilers, of course...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>been used to symbolize containing the whole MU, while Kismet has more
>recently had something of a similar role in the DCU. Make your own jokes
>about the Big Bang theory of universe creation ("A daddy universe and a
>mommy universe loved each other *very* much...").
...with Krona in the middle, forming a new universe in #4...Now
he'll REALLY know How It All Began....
--
-
-Roger Tang, gwan...@u.washington.edu, Artistic Director PC Theatre
- Editor, Asian American Theatre Revue [NEW URL][Yes, it IS new]
- http://www.aatrevue.com
KurtBusiek
attuned to their real places, resulting in their edginess? >>
Who says they were the only ones? They seem to have gotten it strongest, but a
look through #1-3 will turn up more edgy heroes.
kdb
Check out a FREE 8-page ARROWSMITH story at:
http://www.dccomics.com/features/arrowsmith/index.html
Jmsardegna
this issue, so the explanation isn't thst simple
Inanimate Carbon Rod
weekend
> coming up....
>
> Annotations for JLA/Avengers #3 follow. I didn't try to id every character
> in every panel, especially the various Avengers and JLAers; I figure the
> cover guide thread ids all of those. I also didn't track every costume
> change that Perez tossed in, only the most significant or obscure. And
yes,
> Kurt and/or George managed to toss in at least two scenes/characters that
> I couldn't identify; they're noted.
>
> Massive spoilers, of course...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
from,
> but the bottom one is a group shot of the General, Prometheus, and Queen
Bee
> from the second Injustice League from Grant Morrison's JLA run.
I took the WW image as her from Kingdom Come...
Alan Sepinwall
>coming up....
And one hell of a job this was, Tom. Thanks for doing it.
>Page 5: Looks like this is the 80s timeframe; for a while there, the Avengers
>were headquartered on Hydrobase off the coast of NYC, rather than the classic
>and current Avengers Mansion.
Hydrobase was from the late '80s (they moved there after the Masters of
Evil trashed the mansion), while this Avengers lineup and their costumes
are all late '70s. (Iron Man was already in the red and silver armor by
the Hydrobase period, Thor had a beard and armor, Beast was hairless and
in X-Factor, etc.) But since the entire book is blending characters and
settings from different eras, this is obviously not a problem.
>So, if Wonder Woman beats Wonder Man in arm wrestling "every year", it'd
>appear the top level strength in the DCU is a bit above that of the MU...
>although it doesn't appear to be a quick match.
Simon's new catchphrase: "My forearms push almost as hard as Wonder
Woman's!"
I like how Perez's artwork emphasizes those metallic red bracelets that
Simon wore at the time, which match Diana's. A lot of artists just show
that outfit as just a generic red safari jacket, but there were definite
superhero trimmings.
>Taskmaster [MU], Killer Frost [DCU], Korvac [MU], ???, Ultra-Humanite [DCU],
>and Bizarro [DCU]. Anyone know who the bald guy with glasses and a goatee
>is? Btw, there are some serious power level differences in these characters.
Could that be Dr. Sivana from the Shazam comics? I don't remember him
being quite so doughy, but the style definitely looks like a Fawcett
character.
>Page 30-31: Similar scenes of merging, or almost merged, parallel Earths
>have previously appeared in various JLA/JSA team-ups, and of course in
>Crisis on Infinite Earths. Not sure why one Moon has chunks out of it
>while the other appears intact though.
At first I took it as a reference to the moon blowing up in the
Giffen/Bierbaum Legion of Superheroes, which would play into the whole
time/space jumble, but there may have been a more specific JLA story where
the moon was temporarily messed with.
I loved that spread, by the way, but wish that Kurt had kept it wordless.
Would've had much more dramatic effect if Iron Man and Superman's comments
had come in a panel on the next page.
>Page 35: That outfit of Hawkeye's was only worn by him from around Avengers
>#98-109. The subtle change to Wonder Woman's outfit is the return of her
>original eagle as opposed to a stylized WW eagle like chest emblem.
Though she was sporting that outfit since she showed up in the snowy,
empty Metropolis earlier in the book. Was I missing something else that
changed when the JLA teleported into Avengers Mansion?
>Panel 4: Not quite sure where the Wonder Woman and Iron Man images are from,
Was that supposed to be the substitute Wonder Woman from the
Messner-Loebs/Deodato run?
>Panel 3: Hoo boy part two. In reaction to his home Coast City being destroyed,
>even though stories showed all of his close friends not being there when
>it happened and thus still alive, Hal Jordan went nuts. He defeated or killed
>other GLs and took their rings (upper left) and destroyed the Central Power
>Battery (middle right) while absorbing its power, taking the name Parallax.
>He tried to reorder time itself, but failed. Dying in an attempt at
>redemption by reigniting Earth's sun (it had been attacked and "eaten" by
>the Sun Eater), he became the Spectre (lower left). The red skinned woman
>at the top right is Katma Tui, another Green Lantern and eventual wife of
>John Stewart. She was killed by Hal's foe Star Sapphire, who's an alternate
>persona of Hal's main love interest Carol Ferris.
I liked how, when the heroes were toying with the idea of trying to
reshape reality so that none of them would suffer these horrible fates, it
was Hal Jordan who insisted that this reality is "the one we're pledged to
*protect* -- not to play God with." A very un-Parallax attitude to take.
Overall, that sequence was really powerful. I've heard that note played
before, but it was really beautifully executed by Kurt and George.
>Finally, the composition of the teams at this point is interesting. On the
>JLA side, you've got the classic seven Pre-Crisis founding members. On
>the Avengers side, you have the classic five "founders" (Cap joined in #4,
>but was granted "founder" status due to the Hulk only making it through
>one story as a member [#2; while Hulk's in #1, the Avengers only form at
>the very end of the issue]) plus general life of the book mainstays
>Scarlet Witch and Vision (the 8th/9th [same time as Quicksilver, and
>I don't count Wonder Man's one issue "membership" in #9 for this purpose]
>and 12th [not counting Swordsman one issue "membership" in #20 for similar
>reasons] to join, and up there at the top in terms of number of Avengers
>issues they've appeared in).
Can't really argue with the JLA lineup featuring the original Big 7, and
the Avengers lineup features 7 of their Big 8, with only Hawkeye missing.
Kurt, if you're around and care to answer, was there a specific reason why
Hawkeye was left out of this final group? Was it just to balance the two
sides at 7 each? Because Clint's future tragedy (the death of Mockingbird)
wasn't quite as resonant as the ones for other members? You've made no
secret that he's your favorite Avenger, so I'm curious what the reason
was, if you want to discuss it.
What was interesting to me was going through that cover of George's and
tallying up the members of each team who I'd consider genuinely important
and who was just an obscure one-shot character (Antaeus, Tomorrow Woman)
or just a bad idea (Mr. Fantastic, Darkhawk). I'd argue that there are
more important B-list JLA'ers than there are really crucial Avengers after
the Big 8. The former group includes Hawkman, Atom, Green Arrow, Black
Canary, Zatanna, Firestorm, Red Tornado and maybe Blue Beetle to represent
the Giffen/Maguire team. (Plus Kyle and Wally, but they're Big 7
legacies.) Other than the Avengers included at the end and Hawkeye, the
only heroes who had long, memorable, important tenures are arguably Wonder
Man, Beast and Black Panther. (Which is not a knock on the likes of
She-Hulk, Photon and Hercules, but they either weren't around as long or
just never felt as important to the team's overall mythos.)
One other Kurt question (again, if you feel like answering): In scripting
this issue, how specific were you in telling George what characters to
feature in the crowd scenes and what costumes to feature at other points?
Was it all your choices, or did George have some latitude to use, say,
Wonder Man's blue tank top uniform instead of the Christmas tree ensemble
from the Englehart/Milgrom run of WCA?
In particular, I was wondering about the outfits for the final group of
14. You not only have Hal and Barry there instead of Kyle and Wally, but
most of them are wearing pretty classic outfits (Hal is even sporting his
original GL costume), which fits the whole idea of the Silver Age-y
characters realizing what the more modern age of comics will do to them.
But Iron Man and Aquaman are both sporting recent looks. Was this a
decision on your part -- say, to move beyond the simple Silver Age/modern
age comparison -- or did you tell George he could draw them however he
wanted?
If there's a story point from issue 4 tied into all this, or if you just
don't feel like discussing minutiae like this, that's cool. Thanks for
such an amazing trip down memory line that doesn't just feel like
shameless nostalgia. I haven't had this much fun reading a comic in years.
-Alan
Tom Galloway
In article <20031127194009...@mb-m07.aol.com>,
Jmsardegna <jmsar...@aol.com> wrote:
>As far as why Hawkeye switched worlds, Mockingbird is still alive on Page 10
>of this issue, so the explanation isn't thst simple
Maybe, maybe not. By the time we see Mockingbird, Hawkeye has vanished from
the DCU and everything from then on implies he's still an MU resident with
no period in the DCU mentioned or implied. I'd say it's quite possible that
in the scene where Hawk's in the DCU, Mockingbird's dead, while after the
universes shuffle again she's back to being alive.
tyg t...@Panix.com
Michael Alan Chary
Alan Sepinwall <sepi...@force.stwing.upenn.edu> wrote:
>In article <bq4bcl$bks$1...@panix3.panix.com>, Tom Galloway <t...@panix.com> wrote:
>>What the heck, it was a slow Wednesday night and there's a four day weekend
>>coming up....
>
>And one hell of a job this was, Tom. Thanks for doing it.
>
>
>>and Bizarro [DCU]. Anyone know who the bald guy with glasses and a goatee
>>is? Btw, there are some serious power level differences in these characters.
>
>Could that be Dr. Sivana from the Shazam comics? I don't remember him
>being quite so doughy, but the style definitely looks like a Fawcett
>character.
Could be, Sivanna doesn't have the beard.
>>Finally, the composition of the teams at this point is interesting. On the
>>JLA side, you've got the classic seven Pre-Crisis founding members. On
>>the Avengers side, you have the classic five "founders" (Cap joined in #4,
>>but was granted "founder" status due to the Hulk only making it through
>>one story as a member [#2; while Hulk's in #1, the Avengers only form at
Whic is total crap, because a) he's notafounder, and b) Hawkeye's been a
member just as long, and they treat himlike a red-headed step child half
the time.
>Kurt, if you're around and care to answer, was there a specific reason why
>Hawkeye was left out of this final group? Was it just to balance the two
>sides at 7 each? Because Clint's future tragedy (the death of Mockingbird)
>wasn't quite as resonant as the ones for other members? You've made no
>secret that he's your favorite Avenger, so I'm curious what the reason
>was, if you want to discuss it.
>
>What was interesting to me was going through that cover of George's and
>tallying up the members of each team who I'd consider genuinely important
>and who was just an obscure one-shot character (Antaeus, Tomorrow Woman)
>or just a bad idea (Mr. Fantastic, Darkhawk). I'd argue that there are
>more important B-list JLA'ers than there are really crucial Avengers after
>the Big 8. The former group includes Hawkman, Atom, Green Arrow, Black
>Canary, Zatanna, Firestorm, Red Tornado and maybe Blue Beetle to represent
It might just be the Dick Dillin fanin me, but I'd count Elongated Man as
well.
>the Giffen/Maguire team. (Plus Kyle and Wally, but they're Big 7
>legacies.) Other than the Avengers included at the end and Hawkeye, the
>only heroes who had long, memorable, important tenures are arguably Wonder
>Man, Beast and Black Panther. (Which is not a knock on the likes of
>She-Hulk, Photon and Hercules, but they either weren't around as long or
>just never felt as important to the team's overall mythos.)
I disagreeabout Hercules. Also, Quicksilver.
Btw, there are two Dr. Fates on the cover. Did Hector Hall join the League
at some point?
--
Do they still play the blues in Chicago when baseball season rolls around/When
the snow melts away do the Cubbies still play in their ivy covered burial mound
When I was a boy they were my pride and joy, but now they only bring fatigue to
the land of the free the home of the brave and the doormat of the Nat'l League.
Jay and Diane Rudin
"Michael Alan Chary" answered someone:
> >>Finally, the composition of the teams at this point is interesting. On
the
> >>JLA side, you've got the classic seven Pre-Crisis founding members. On
> >>the Avengers side, you have the classic five "founders" (Cap joined in
#4,
> >>but was granted "founder" status due to the Hulk only making it through
> >>one story as a member [#2; while Hulk's in #1, the Avengers only form at
> Whic is total [crud], because a) he's notafounder, and b) Hawkeye's been a
> member just as long, and they treat himlike a red-headed step child half
> the time.
Actually, no, Hawkeye came in after Cap. Cap was a member since issue #4,
and, while not a founder, he was one of the original Avenhgers for most of
their run. When the new line-up appeared in #17, Cap was considered a link
to the original Avengers by everyone, including Hawkeye.
Jay Rudin
Hal Shipman
wrote:
>Btw, there are two Dr. Fates on the cover. Did Hector Hall join the League
>at some point?
Nope, but we did have two - Kent Nelson/Nabu, in the beginning of the
Giffen League (including the first Gray Man storyline) and then Linda
Straus(s?) later in that run. Note that one of the two has breasts.
Hal.
.
Remove the underscore in the address to reply by email.
.
The Bizarro Squiddies am not here!
Polls am now closed!
Final results soon enough.
Alan Sepinwall
Michael Alan Chary <mch...@panix.com> wrote:
>In article <bq67v3$i...@force.stwing.upenn.edu>,
>Alan Sepinwall <sepi...@force.stwing.upenn.edu> wrote:
>>
>>What was interesting to me was going through that cover of George's and
>>tallying up the members of each team who I'd consider genuinely important
>>and who was just an obscure one-shot character (Antaeus, Tomorrow Woman)
>>or just a bad idea (Mr. Fantastic, Darkhawk). I'd argue that there are
>>more important B-list JLA'ers than there are really crucial Avengers after
>>the Big 8. The former group includes Hawkman, Atom, Green Arrow, Black
>>Canary, Zatanna, Firestorm, Red Tornado and maybe Blue Beetle to represent
>
>It might just be the Dick Dillin fanin me, but I'd count Elongated Man as
>well.
Yeah, I meant to include Ralph, but somehow forgot to type his name in.
>>the Giffen/Maguire team. (Plus Kyle and Wally, but they're Big 7
>>legacies.) Other than the Avengers included at the end and Hawkeye, the
>>only heroes who had long, memorable, important tenures are arguably Wonder
>>Man, Beast and Black Panther. (Which is not a knock on the likes of
>>She-Hulk, Photon and Hercules, but they either weren't around as long or
>>just never felt as important to the team's overall mythos.)
>
>I disagreeabout Hercules. Also, Quicksilver.
An argument could be made for Herc, though he was only briefly with the
team in the early years, then turned up again for the Roger Stern and Bob
Harras runs. If I was going to pick anybody from the Stern days to elevate
to the B-list, it'd be Photon.
As part of the Kooky Quartet and Wanda's brother, Quicksilver has an
important legacy, but the guy left the team in the early years and
basically didn't come back for decades, and even then it's been sporadic
at best.
Of course, Beast had a relatively brief tenure and has only popped up for
single adventures since, so I wouldn't object to Pietro.
The point I was trying to make, though, is that the great majority of the
people on the cover to issue 3 are pretty fringe-y. I'm impressed that
Kurt and (especially) George included them all, but people like Black
Lightning and the female Yellowjacket are really JLA'ers and Avengers in
title only.
>Btw, there are two Dr. Fates on the cover. Did Hector Hall join the League
>at some point?
There's Kent Nelson from the very early days of Giffen/DeMatteis/Maguire,
plus the female Dr. Fate who was briefly a member in the early days of
Giffen/DeMatteis/Hughes (pretty much only for the first crossover with
JLE).
-Alan
Michael Alan Chary
GusNYT
thought diana actually wore that costume. does this mean that it was a
different woman?!?
gus
* * * * *
e-mail me for my list of "storage sale" comics. good comics (and trades) for a
good bargain to a good home.
* * * * *
Saxon Brenton
annotations:
> I liked how, when the heroes were toying with the idea of trying to
> reshape reality so that none of them would suffer these horrible fates, it
> was Hal Jordan who insisted that this reality is "the one we're pledged to
> *protect* -- not to play God with." A very un-Parallax attitude to take.
Part of it's beauty is how completely natural it is as a piece of
characterisation. Traditionally one of Hal's main character traits has been
bravery. Of course he's going to be the first person to have the courage
to accept that in another timeline he's done horrific things, but that
nevertheles this is something that has to be dealt with on its own terms
rather than trying to avoid.
----------
Saxon Brenton Uni of Technology, city library, Sydney Australia
saxon....@uts.edu.au
Tim Turnip
>who is that second wonder woman on the cover -- the one in the biker shorts? i
>thought diana actually wore that costume. does this mean that it was a
>different woman?!?
That is Diana. She wore the biker shorts and jacket while Artemis was
running around in the Wonder Woman costume, as I recall (sort of a
Steve-Rogers-in-the-black-costume thing I guess). Hippolyta is also
on there, which makes for a third "Wonder Woman".
Diana's double raises an interesting point: this cover does feature
multiple instances of the exact same person, only in different
"incarnation". Clint Barton (Hawkeye/Goliath) is also on there twice,
and Hank Pym is on there five times!
Tom Galloway
The rules for the cover seem to be:
1) Each individual person who was a member, even if they used the same
heroic identity name. So you get Diana-Wonder Woman and Hippolyta-Wonder
Woman. You don't get Artemis-Wonder Woman since she didn't serve as a member
of the JLA.
2) Each separate heroic identity of a person who served as a member. Costume
changes alone don't count (that's for the inside...). So you get Hank-Ant-Man,
Hank-Giant-Man, Hank-Goliath, Hank-Yellowjacket, and Hank-Dr. Pym Scientific
Adventurer. Since Diana served as a member when she was not Wonder Woman,
she shows up both as Wonder Woman and as Diana-Biker Shorts Woman.
3) Any sort of membership counts, from one panel appearances in a "reserves"
crowd scene, to minor appearances in other books as a reserve, to lame
"inductions" as an honorary member as you lie dying in a secondary book
back-up story, to complete mistakes that got propagated. About the only
membership that doesn't seem to count is from the end of Grant Morrison's
JLA run where the entire population of Earth gets powered up and refered to
en masse as JLA reserves.
Tom Galloway
>>>the Giffen/Maguire team. (Plus Kyle and Wally, but they're Big 7
>>>legacies.) Other than the Avengers included at the end and Hawkeye, the
>>>only heroes who had long, memorable, important tenures are arguably Wonder
>>>Man, Beast and Black Panther. (Which is not a knock on the likes of
>>>She-Hulk, Photon and Hercules, but they either weren't around as long or
>>>just never felt as important to the team's overall mythos.)
Actually, I wouldn't count Black Panther as a significant Avenger. He had
a good run from #52 to around #88 or so, but after that he's been a very
sporadic member.
I think the distinctions are due to two reasons. First, until the Detroit
League, it was pretty much "Once a Leaguer, Always A Leaguer" with all members
showing up at least every few issues. The only exceptions are J'onn (gone
from #71-240 save for a guest shot or two), Diana's resignation during her
non-powered period, Red Tornado's death for about a year, Green Arrow's
relatively short-termed resignation, and Batman's longer one (done to set
up Batman and the Outsiders, without which it probably wouldn't have
happened). And, of course, the Phantom Stranger's sporadic appearances.
Meanwhile, over at the Avengers, you'd have wholesale membership turnover
every couple of years, with long periods of members not showing up. So the
individual Leaguers pre-Detroit League just showed up for a lot more
adventures over a longer period of time than most individual Avengers save
for the Big 8.
Also, the JLA had relatively few writers. Fox for 65+ stories,
O'Neil/Friedrich for about three years, Wein for a year or so, Bates and
Maggin for a bit, Englehart for a year, and then Conway for the rest of
the book's existance (yeah, there were some fill-ins in there, say by
Busiek for example, but Conway was the regular writer over a long period).
Avengers has tended to switch writers a bit more, and each writer, I think,
has picked out a team they're comfortable with or with characters they
want to develop. I think what's significant about Wanda, Clint, and Vizh is
that they've been used by a *lot* of the writers, whereas I think of Photon
as a Stern character who's been used only a bit by other writers. And
the Avengers history of wholesale membership turnover makes picking your
favorite characters a lot easier to pull off there than over in the pre-Detroit
JLA.
>The point I was trying to make, though, is that the great majority of the
>people on the cover to issue 3 are pretty fringe-y. I'm impressed that
>Kurt and (especially) George included them all, but people like Black
>Lightning and the female Yellowjacket are really JLA'ers and Avengers in
>title only.
Well, BL is one of the lamer JLA members. One of those, along with Jade and
Jesse Quick, mentioned/shown as a "reserve" in a panel or two types.
Rita-Yellowjacket is a pet peeve of mine. She's not an Avenger. Never was.
She appeared in an Avengers Annual and helped out with a case only due to
not being able to turn off the emergency signal in the stolen-from-Hank-Pym
outfit. At the end of the story, no one's offered her membership, she doesn't
ask for it, and neither side seems to think there's any reason they'd ever
work together again.
But, someone goofed and put her name on a list of Avengers members (I believe
in #400 if I recall correctly), and people since have felt, for some reason,
they have to acknowledge this "membership" listing instead of just saying
"Hey, someone goofed in that list".
tyg t...@Panix.com
Tom Galloway
>and, while not a founder, he was one of the original Avenhgers for most of
>their run. When the new line-up appeared in #17, Cap was considered a link
>to the original Avengers by everyone, including Hawkeye.
Basically, you've got:
Hulk: There when the team was created, but only participated in one issue
(at the time; there's the retconned in #1.5 issue done decades later) as
a team member since the Avengers were formed in the last panels of #1. Was
treated as an adversary in most of #1 and all of #3.
Cap: Only misses two cases in #2 and #3 before joining up.
Hawkeye: First of the "Kooky Quartet" to join after Cap, he's in around
case number 12 or so (there was at least one 2-parter in the first 16
issues, one story that was wiped out of their memories, and occasional
appearances in FF and X-Men), as are Wanda and Pietro since there's no
case known between Clint's admission and theirs.
Given the compressed ten-year-timeline, Hawkeye et al joined only a few
months after Cap at best.
Alan Sepinwall
>In article <bq7tii$7...@force.stwing.upenn.edu>,
>Alan Sepinwall <sepi...@force.stwing.upenn.edu> wrote:
>>>>the Giffen/Maguire team. (Plus Kyle and Wally, but they're Big 7
>>>>legacies.) Other than the Avengers included at the end and Hawkeye, the
>>>>only heroes who had long, memorable, important tenures are arguably Wonder
>>>>Man, Beast and Black Panther. (Which is not a knock on the likes of
>>>>She-Hulk, Photon and Hercules, but they either weren't around as long or
>>>>just never felt as important to the team's overall mythos.)
>
>Actually, I wouldn't count Black Panther as a significant Avenger. He had
>a good run from #52 to around #88 or so, but after that he's been a very
>sporadic member.
Hmmm... I suppose you're right. I'm not as up on my pre-Shooter Avengers
history, so I was under the impression that BP was around longer than
that. And he was a regular for a good chunk of Shooter's run. But if he
was around that briefly in his first stint, he'd rank down with the likes
of She-Hulk in terms of tenure and historical significance. That basically
only leaves Wonder Man (long off-and-on history with the team and a WCA
mainstay, plus extensive history with Big 8 members Vision and Scarlet
Witch) and Beast (not-so-long tenure but one of the most colorful
characters to ever join, and someone who would have been around a lot more
over the years if not for the X-Men connection) as the only Avengers I
feel have even an argument for cracking the inner circle.
>Avengers has tended to switch writers a bit more, and each writer, I think,
>has picked out a team they're comfortable with or with characters they
>want to develop.
Definitely. And each writer has added at least one, and usually two or
three members of his own, which starts to add up. Just thinking back over
my time reading the main book as a kid, Michelinie added Falcon, Ms.
Marvel and Jocasta, Shooter (in his second stint) added Tigra, Steven
Grant brought in She-Hulk, Roger Stern added Captain Marvel/Photon,
Starfox, Namor and Dr. Druid (and, I suppose, Stingray), Walt Simonson
brought in Marrina, Gilgamesh, Mr. Fantastic and Invisible Woman, John
Byrne added Sersi and Spider-Man, Larry Hama inducted Rage and Sandman,
etc. And at the same time, the West Coast title was adding a whole
bunch of newbies (Mockingbird, James Rhodes, Thing, Moon Knight,
etc.). Kurt's recent run on the book alone added Justice, Firestar,
Silverclaw, Triathlon and Jack of Hearts to the membership ranks.
Now, many of these additions have been good ones, or at least contributed
to good stories, and I wouldn't want writers forced to use the same basic
lineup if they have nothing to say about Thor or Vision or the Wasp. But
looking at that cover was a reminder that membership in either team -- the
two elites of these companies -- hasn't been an elite thing for a long,
long time. It seems as if practically every Marvel and DC hero has been a
member at one time or another.
-Alan
Rick Hodge
wrote:
>In article <bq67v3$i...@force.stwing.upenn.edu>,
>Alan Sepinwall <sepi...@force.stwing.upenn.edu> wrote:
>>In article <bq4bcl$bks$1...@panix3.panix.com>, Tom Galloway <t...@panix.com> wrote:
>>>What the heck, it was a slow Wednesday night and there's a four day weekend
>>>coming up....
>>
>>And one hell of a job this was, Tom. Thanks for doing it.
>>
>>
>>>Taskmaster [MU], Killer Frost [DCU], Korvac [MU], ???, Ultra-Humanite [DCU],
>>>and Bizarro [DCU]. Anyone know who the bald guy with glasses and a goatee
>>>is? Btw, there are some serious power level differences in these characters.
>>
>>Could that be Dr. Sivana from the Shazam comics? I don't remember him
>>being quite so doughy, but the style definitely looks like a Fawcett
>>character.
>
>Could be, Sivanna doesn't have the beard.
>
I was thinking that's Professor Hugo Strange.
regards,
Rick Hodge
"See the dizzy spell. I would like a dizzy spell, too."
--Paul Merton, "Whose Line is It, Anyway?"
"If the ref didn't see it, it didn't happen."
--Moltar, "Space Ghost Coast to Coast"
"I believe that in some parallel universe out there,
Adam West played Captain Kirk in "Star Trek" while
William Shatner played the title role of "Batman".
--Rick Hodge
KurtBusiek
Hawkeye was left out of this final group? >>
Yes.
>> One other Kurt question (again, if you feel like answering): In scripting
this issue, how specific were you in telling George what characters to feature
in the crowd scenes and what costumes to feature at other points? Was it all
your choices, or did George have some latitude to use, say, Wonder Man's blue
tank top uniform instead of the Christmas tree ensemble from the
Englehart/Milgrom run of WCA? >>
In some case I specified, in others I didn't. I gave him lists of characters
who needed to be there, lists who might or might not be, and let him add anyone
else he felt like.
>> In particular, I was wondering about the outfits for the final group of 14.
You not only have Hal and Barry there instead of Kyle and Wally, but
most of them are wearing pretty classic outfits (Hal is even sporting his
original GL costume), which fits the whole idea of the Silver Age-y characters
realizing what the more modern age of comics will do to them. But Iron Man and
Aquaman are both sporting recent looks. Was this a decision on your part --
say, to move beyond the simple Silver Age/modern age comparison -- or did you
tell George he could draw them however he wanted? >>
We picked those costumes to make it look like a mix of characters from multiple
eras, rather than just one.
Tom Galloway
Rick Hodge <ric...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>On 28 Nov 2003 10:04:02 -0500, mch...@panix.com (Michael Alan Chary)
>>>In article <bq4bcl$bks$1...@panix3.panix.com>, Tom Galloway <t...@panix.com> wrote:
Spoiler for an appearing only in one panel in a viewscreen character no one's
been able to ID yet:
>>>>Anyone know who the bald guy with glasses and a goatee is?
>>>Could that be Dr. Sivana from the Shazam comics? I don't remember him
>>>being quite so doughy, but the style definitely looks like a Fawcett
>>>character.
>>Could be, Sivanna doesn't have the beard.
He was also considerably thinner.
>I was thinking that's Professor Hugo Strange.
Nope. Also thinner, no white hair, and Strange went with the full wrap-around
beard, no moustache facial hair, rather than the goatee seen here (side note:
what's shown here is a goatee. The style later seen on Tony Stark of moustache
plus a goatee is a van dyke...although in recent years since they've become
popular, people keep calling them goatees).
I'd thought MU's Egghead was a possibility (bald, bulkier), but the head's
not that prominently egg shaped and I don't recall him having facial hair.
Rick Hodge
>Other pairings: Kurt also really likes Iron Man and Green (Hal Jordan)
>Lantern, and during the Amalgam comics which combined aspects of DCU and MU
>heroes wrote "Iron Lantern" combining aspects of the two. Thus the handshake.
>
According to "Emerald Dawn", Hal Jordan had an alcohol problem,
althought not to the extent that Tony Stark did.
>And in the last panel, the blond in the blue outfit is Aquaman, in a used
>only in a mini-series costume. This was designed by the writer of that
>mini-series, Neal Ponzer. Ponzer has since died, and in tribute his SO,
>Phil Jimenez, redesigned Aquaman's former sidekick's (originally Aqualad,
>now Tempest) outfit to have the same general appearance, but in red and black
>rather than shades of blue.
>
Um, Neal Pozner.
Page 25, panel 8: Could that be a reference to the first
Superman/Spider-Man crossover?
>
>Page 42-43: Damn you Busiek and Perez...:-)
>
>OK, starting from the series of images the Wasp is at the top of and going
>clockwise, top to bottom among each set. Most (all?) of these are very
>specific scenes, but I'm not going to try to do issue numbers.
>Set Three: One: Jack Knight aka Starman, a DCU hero. Two: The Kree Supreme
>Intelligence. I suspect this is from Operation Galactic Storm where a team
>of Avengers set out to, and thought they had, killed the SI due to his having
>performed genocide on 90% of the Kree, but am not sure
.
I thought maybe this was from "Avengers Forever"
> Three: The current
>versions of DCU heroes Hawkman and Hawkgirl. Don't even ask me to explain
>their history. Four: Something exploding.
With the red skies background could it be the "Crisis"?
>Five: Exodus kidnapping Luna, the
>daughter of Quicksilver and Crystal (an Inhuman, also an Avenger. She's the
>redhead next to Quicksilver; the one behind them is X-Man Jean Grey).
>
>Set Four: One: Onslaught, a merged Professor Xavier of the X-Men and his
>for Magneto who was thought for a time to have killed the Avengers and
>Fantastic Four (actually, they were shunted to a pocket dimension with
>an Earth created by Mr. Fantastic and the Invisible Woman's son Franklin
>Richards (whose power level varies from universe-shaking to non-existant)).
>Two: Lex Luthor taking the oath of office as President of the United States.
>Three: Avenger Sersi attacking Proctor, an alternate Earth version of
>Avenger the Black Knight. Long story.
>
>Set Five: One: OK Kurt, George, this is the other one where you've got me;
>no idea what this is from or who's in it. Two: Remember that pocket dimension
>where the Avengers went post-Onslaught battle? This is what Thor, the
>Witch, and Cap looked like there.
Yes, the infamous "Heroes Reborn".
>Panel 4: Not quite sure where the Wonder Woman and Iron Man images are from,
>but the bottom one is a group shot of the General, Prometheus, and Queen Bee
>from the second Injustice League from Grant Morrison's JLA run.
>
Someone said that the Wonder Woman shot is from "Kingdom Come".
Possible, but I think it's more from an early issue of the Perez run
of "Wonder Woman" (which I think will be in an upcoming TPB). Of
course it could also be from "Our Worlds at War", before Hyppolyta
died.
>Panel 6: First image is the Odinsword after Odin (Thor's father) used it to
>kill Surter...resulting in his own death. Second image is Hippolyta
>(Wonder Woman's mother)'s death. Note, btw, that Hippolyta was for a time
>a member of the JLA as Wonder Woman while Diana was being a goddess of truth
>on Mount Olympus.
>
>Page 46: Panel 1: Superman sees his death at the hands of Doomsday (the spiky
>guy in the lower left image), along with three of the four "replacements"
>who showed up afterwards. The top left is Hank Henshaw, aka the Cyborg
>Superman aka Cyborg (not to be confused with the Titans' good guy Cyborg),
>who would later be responsible for the destruction of Coast City which leads
>to images in panel 3. Note that in his first appearance, Henshaw was a
>Reed Richards doppleganger in a story with a similar to the FF origin; he
>was the only survivor of the four FF dopplegangers in that story. Mostly
>obscured in the upper right is Steel, an armored superhero. Between
>Doomsday and the image of Clark Kent's wedding to Lois Lane is Superboy,
>who's either a clone of Cadmus Project Director Westfield with genetic
>tampering to simulate Kryptonian powers via "tactile telekinesis" or possibly
>in a retcon a clone with the genetic material of both Superman and Lex
>Luthor.
>
The lowest picture displays the tattered Superman cape on a pole
like a flag (referenced many times during that storyline).
>Panel 3: Hoo boy part two. In reaction to his home Coast City being destroyed,
>even though stories showed all of his close friends not being there when
>it happened and thus still alive, Hal Jordan went nuts. He defeated or killed
>other GLs and took their rings (upper left) and destroyed the Central Power
>Battery (middle right) while absorbing its power, taking the name Parallax.
>He tried to reorder time itself, but failed. Dying in an attempt at
>redemption by reigniting Earth's sun (it had been attacked and "eaten" by
>the Sun Eater), he became the Spectre (lower left). The red skinned woman
>at the top right is Katma Tui, another Green Lantern and eventual wife of
>John Stewart. She was killed by Hal's foe Star Sapphire, who's an alternate
>persona of Hal's main love interest Carol Ferris.
>
Also on the lower right is a picture of Crab Face, a.k.a. Kyle
Raynor.
Mike Milley
> Btw, there are two Dr. Fates on the cover. Did Hector Hall join the League
> at some point?
Linda Strauss...one-half of Dr.Fate II...joined the JLI for an issue or
two...
Glenn Simpson
The cover also includes different versions of the same person. The
easiest example is that Hank Pym is on there as Ant-Man, Goliath,
Yellowjacket, etc.
Diana is on there as "Wonder Woman" in the regular suit and "Diana" in
the biker-shorts suit (since Artemis was Wonder Woman at the time).
David Goldfarb
>
>
>
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>
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>
>Page 7: Panel 3 has various group pictures of mixed JLAers and Avengers,
>leading into panel 4's redo of the classic cover to JLA #21. That story
>had the Earth-1 JLA meeting the Earth-2 JSA for the first time (at least
>as a group; Flash of Earth-1 had already met several members of the JSA
>in a previous solo adventure). Interestingly, George (or Kurt) decided to
>put the Avengers in the same relative position as the JLA in the original
>cover, with the JLA appearing where the JSA appeared in the original.
In panel 3 we have a picture including Hawkgirl, Wonder Woman, the Black
Widow, and possibly Fire. Could this be a version of the Lady Liberators?
>Page 13:
>And in the last panel, the blond in the blue outfit is Aquaman, in a used
>only in a mini-series costume. This was designed by the writer of that
>mini-series, Neal Ponzer.
Pozner. Aquaman was also visible in that costume on Page 11 panel 2.
>Page 35: That outfit of Hawkeye's was only worn by him from around Avengers
>#98-109. The subtle change to Wonder Woman's outfit is the return of her
>original eagle as opposed to a stylized WW eagle like chest emblem.
Also her tiara -- the modern version of Wonder Woman's tiara has points
on both top and bottom; but here (and in fact going back to page 19) she
is wearing her original flat-bottomed tiara.
>Page 42-43:
>Set Four: One: Onslaught, a merged Professor Xavier of the X-Men and his
>for Magneto who was thought for a time to have killed the Avengers and
>Fantastic Four (actually, they were shunted to a pocket dimension with
>an Earth created by Mr. Fantastic and the Invisible Woman's son Franklin
>Richards (whose power level varies from universe-shaking to non-existant)).
>Two: Lex Luthor taking the oath of office as President of the United States.
>Three: Avenger Sersi attacking Proctor, an alternate Earth version of
>Avenger the Black Knight. Long story.
You missed one at the bottom here: in black space, a bright light or
ray beam flashing past a ring-like structure within a force field. I
*think* this is from the beginning of _Secret Wars_ -- the structure being
one of the two containing the heroes and villains, and the light coming
from the Beyonder.
>Set Six: One: John Stewart as Green Lantern. Can't tell where the scene
>comes from.
By the style of the costume and ring, it's early; by the lack of mask,
I'd guess probably John's first appearance.
>Page 44
>Panel 6: Top is a shot of Speedy (Green Arrow's sidekick) and Cheshire, an
>international terrorist/mercenary.
That's Wally West and Linda Park.
>Page 45: Panel 1: Top left; the base of a statue of the Avengers founders,
>dedicated after the team was thought dead for an extended period.
Judging by the condition it's in and the surrounding rubble, I think this
is a reference to _Avengers Forever_ -- the alternate future in which
Martians invade and the Black Panther is leading the remnants of humanity.
>Panel 6: First image is the Odinsword after Odin (Thor's father) used it to
>kill Surter...resulting in his own death.
Are you sure that's the Odinsword, and not Surtur's sword Twilight?
--
David Goldfarb <*>| "I am an atheist, myself. A simple faith, but
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | a great comfort to me in these last days."
gold...@csua.berkeley.edu | -- Lois McMaster Bujold, _Shards of Honor_
N Leggatt
>
> Who says they were the only ones? They seem to have gotten it strongest, but a
> look through #1-3 will turn up more edgy heroes.
>
now that i recall, thor drew first blood while caps and supes were
still in the yelling stage --- i just attributed that to thor being a
natural hothead in any case, but i guess the violence was uncalled for
--- and wonder woman certainly leapt on heracles with a most un-noble
concurrent leap to conclusions. so color me wrong.
by the by, i never did say that although i found #2 to be a bit rushed
and perplexing, for a few scenes at least, #3 was to me the finest
issue yet. a wonderful tribute to the crisis, and team-ups in
general. wonderful heroism at the end. i don't know how this team-up
could be done better.
N
N Leggatt
>
>Kurt, if you're around and care to answer, was there a specific
reason why
Hawkeye was left out of this final group?<
I'm not kurt, but i've thought, as soon i saw hawkeye walk in the
door, that he would play a huge role in the end, in a tribute to his
trumping of the Grandmaster in the Contest of Champions.
N
Janus
@newsgroups.bellsouth.net:
> Someone said that the Wonder Woman shot is from "Kingdom Come".
> Possible, but I think it's more from an early issue of the Perez run
> of "Wonder Woman" (which I think will be in an upcoming TPB). Of
> course it could also be from "Our Worlds at War", before Hyppolyta
> died.
>
It's most likely Our World's at War. I think all the panels pertain to
regular Marvel and Dc continuity.
--
The head of the English department asked me, "Do you read any crap?"
And I said, no, in that insufferable high school manner, no doubt.
And he said, "You need to read more crap."
The point was to read more for entertainment and for fun.
GAIL SIMONE
Josh Dull
> The cover also includes different versions of the same person. The
> easiest example is that Hank Pym is on there as Ant-Man, Goliath,
> Yellowjacket, etc.
>
> Diana is on there as "Wonder Woman" in the regular suit and "Diana" in
> the biker-shorts suit (since Artemis was Wonder Woman at the time).
If each costume a hero wore, then Aquaman in his scale-mail shirt should be
their. But I have yet to see it.
Am I just missing it or was it left off?
Josh
Mark J. Reed
> If each costume a hero wore, then Aquaman in his scale-mail shirt should be
If every costume were there, the entire cover would be taken up by
the Pyms! No, costume changes apparently don't count unless there
was a codename change to go with it (and unless the person was still in
the group under the alternate codename). During the period where she
wore the biker shorts, Diana wasn't Wonder Woman, because Artemis
had taken over the right to that name. So she just went by Diana.
If Artemis had been in the League, she would be on the cover as
yet a third Wonder Woman, but she wasn't.
Aquaman's codename has always been Aquaman, so he only gets one appearance,
and they picked the shirtless, bearded, morphing-hand version.
-Mark
Nathan Sanders
"Josh Dull" <cd...@woh.rr.com> wrote:
The key part is that Aquaman hasn't gone by a different codename when he
had different costumes, whereas Wonder Woman did (she wasn't "Wonder
Woman" when she wore her biker shorts, since Artemis held the title at
the time).
Nathan
--
To contact me, replace verizon.net with aol.com
Michael Alan Chary
>Michael Alan Chary <mch...@panix.com> wrote:
>>>more important B-list JLA'ers than there are really crucial Avengers after
>>>the Big 8. The former group includes Hawkman, Atom, Green Arrow, Black
>>>Canary, Zatanna, Firestorm, Red Tornado and maybe Blue Beetle to represent
>>
>>It might just be the Dick Dillin fanin me, but I'd count Elongated Man as
>>well.
>
>Yeah, I meant to include Ralph, but somehow forgot to type his name in.
Actually, I figured as much.
>>>the Giffen/Maguire team. (Plus Kyle and Wally, but they're Big 7
>>>legacies.) Other than the Avengers included at the end and Hawkeye, the
>>>only heroes who had long, memorable, important tenures are arguably Wonder
>>>Man, Beast and Black Panther. (Which is not a knock on the likes of
>>>She-Hulk, Photon and Hercules, but they either weren't around as long or
>>>just never felt as important to the team's overall mythos.)
>>
>>I disagreeabout Hercules. Also, Quicksilver.
>
>An argument could be made for Herc, though he was only briefly with the
>team in the early years, then turned up again for the Roger Stern and Bob
>Harras runs. If I was going to pick anybody from the Stern days to elevate
>to the B-list, it'd be Photon.
>
>As part of the Kooky Quartet and Wanda's brother, Quicksilver has an
>important legacy, but the guy left the team in the early years and
>basically didn't come back for decades, and even then it's been sporadic
>at best.
>
>Of course, Beast had a relatively brief tenure and has only popped up for
>single adventures since, so I wouldn't object to Pietro.
I like the Beast, but he's an X-man.
>The point I was trying to make, though, is that the great majority of the
>people on the cover to issue 3 are pretty fringe-y. I'm impressed that
>Kurt and (especially) George included them all, but people like Black
>Lightning and the female Yellowjacket are really JLA'ers and Avengers in
>title only.
The point I'm trying to make is that Hawkeye gets no respect. To draw a
labored analogy, if the Avengers were the primetime television schedule,
Thor, Jan, Hank and Iron Man would be "Law and Order," "The Simpsons,"
"NYPD Blue" and "60 Minutes." Cap would be like "ER." Wanda would like
"Friends" and Vision would be like, oh, maybe "The West Wing" or
"Everybody Loves Raymond." Now, Hawkeye should be like "JAG," on the air
for years, solid ratings, decent performer and willing to take one for the
team (moving to Friday coinciding roughly with changing into Goliath) with
the odd cosmetic changes. Instead, Hawkeye is treated like "Scrubs." They
barely do any publicity, despite its obvious quality, and half the time it
seems like they want to pretend it's not on the schedule, and then they
shorten it to accomodate the Falcon or something. (I'd say Henry Gyrich
was in charge of NBC programming, but "Karen Sisco" is even more heinously
treated.) Hawkeye has been Avenging for a long time. He should get more
respect.
>
>>Btw, there are two Dr. Fates on the cover. Did Hector Hall join the League
>>at some point?
>
>There's Kent Nelson from the very early days of Giffen/DeMatteis/Maguire,
>plus the female Dr. Fate who was briefly a member in the early days of
>Giffen/DeMatteis/Hughes (pretty much only for the first crossover with
>JLE).
Oh yeah, I remember those issues.
Gary Ragel
"Tom Galloway" <t...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:bq4bcl$bks$1...@panix3.panix.com...
> Page 9: Traya was a Lebanese (originally; now Quraci) orphan that the android
> Red Tornado adopted. Naturally, the married android Vision and Scarlet Witch
> are interested in this approach to an android being a parent.
IIRC, in Young Justice issue #43, Traya was said to be Bialyan (not Quraci).
Just a minor nitpick, these annotations are greatly appreciated, especially
the rundown of Marvel characters and events since I'm mostly a DC reader.
- GR
Hal Shipman
>Well, BL is one of the lamer JLA members. One of those, along with Jade and
>Jesse Quick, mentioned/shown as a "reserve" in a panel or two types.
I hope you mean lamer in terms of his JLA status, not in terms of
"quality," 'cuase you know as well as I that there are far, far worse.
He was an active reservist in the Morrison years, but unlike the
others, he did explicitly turn down membership once.
>Rita-Yellowjacket is a pet peeve of mine. She's not an Avenger. Never was.
Agreed.
IHCOYC XPICTOC
> It's most likely Our World's at War. I think all the panels pertain to
> regular Marvel and Dc continuity.
Sure of it. Diana never wore the eagle armour before Kingdom Come. After
KC it was borrowed into the regular series and has appeared a couple of
times. She also wore it in a fight w/ Devastation; isn't clear to me who
she's up against in that panel.
--
"Because we are too menny."
--- Thos. Hardy, *Jude the Obscure*
Michael S. Schiffer
news:bq4bcl$bks$1...@panix3.panix.com:
>...
> Massive spoilers, of course...
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>
>
>
>
>
>
> Page 1: The Promethian Giants, a living wall made of the giant
> forms of those who've tried to control/learn the secrets of the
> Source. Both the Giants and Source first appeared in Jack
> Kirby's New Gods comic. Offhand, no one but Doom (who of course
> isn't from around the DCU parts) stands out as recognizable. But
> given Kurt and George's track record, they're probably Giants
> originally drawn by Kirby.
>...
The one in the lower right reminds me of the Anti-Monitor, though
that may just be Perez's art style applied to somewhat similar
features.
Mike
--
Michael S. Schiffer, LHN, FCS
msch...@condor.depaul.edu
Rob Hansen
>I'd thought MU's Egghead was a possibility (bald, bulkier), but the head's
>not that prominently egg shaped and I don't recall him having facial hair.
He did in TALES TO ASTONISH #45: "The Return of Egghead".
--
Rob Hansen
www.fiawol.demon.co.uk
Dave Menard
"Hal Shipman" <_h...@bizarrosquiddies.org> wrote in message
news:73fisvg24t8j2paoi...@4ax.com...
> On 28 Nov 2003 20:40:02 -0500, t...@panix.com (Tom Galloway) wrote:
> >Rita-Yellowjacket is a pet peeve of mine. She's not an Avenger. Never
was.
>
> Agreed.
I've been thinking about Rita, since the initial discussion of her Avenging
status came up about two months back when the b+W proof of Ish.3's cover hit
usenet. This is just a shot in the dark, so I'm happy to be corrected if
this isn't the case, but...
Rita eventually became a member of the Guardians of the Galaxy, am I right?
The GotG are considered official Avengers reserve members, right? (Hence
their presence on the cover to#3)
So, doesn't that make Yellowjacket II de-facto an Avengers reservist?
I'm not saying that she is or isn't worthy of the honour, just that this
might be why she squeaks in...
Dave
--
"Before some man put the bomp in the bomp bah bomp bah bomp, the ram in the
rama lama ding dong, the bop in the bop shoo bop shoo bop, and the dip in
the dip da dip da dip, was it only bah bah, a lama ding dong, shoo shoo, and
da da? If so, what exactly inspired him? And was it possibly the same
individual who wrote the book of love, let the dogs out, got some gangsta
s#!t, and was in my room last night?"
-PAD
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.543 / Virus Database: 337 - Release Date: 21/11/2003
Dave Menard
"Michael S. Schiffer" <msch...@condor.depaul.edu> wrote in message
news:Xns9442CD1617D2...@130.133.1.4...
Nope, the cranium is too large and round. A-Monnie's original helmet was
fairly close to the skull, and his second one was more bottle-shaped,
merging with his shoulder armour like the way Juggernaut's used to be drawn
pre-nineties. (i.e., not wok-like)
Tom Galloway
Dave Menard <menard...@SPAMrogers.com> wrote:
>Rita eventually became a member of the Guardians of the Galaxy, am I right?
Yes and no. See below...
>The GotG are considered official Avengers reserve members, right? (Hence
>their presence on the cover to#3)
>
>So, doesn't that make Yellowjacket II de-facto an Avengers reservist?
I think the Guardians are closer to honorary (and, to be honest, they're
right up there on my list of "Boy is this a tenuous Avenger" with Hellcat,
Machine Man, Darkhawk, and the Thing, who with the exception of various
kitchen sink style stories haven't, y'know, actually participated in a mission
as an Avenger [it's just possible MM or Darkhawk managed one] as they were
voted in *after* being involved in an Avengers mission or three but then
don't show up again). At any rate, they were given whatever Avengers status
they have when back in the 20th century during the Korvac storyline, and only
the Guardians involved in that story have ever been shown to have any sort
of Avengers status. So, for example, Replica, another later Guardian, has
never been shown to have any sort of Avengers status.
As for Rita becoming a Guardian, well, yes, someone named Rita DeMara in
a Yellowjacket outfit joined the Guardians. But from then on, she kept
having thought balloons and dialogue that indicated the one we were seeing
in Guardians was not the one from Marvel Earth-616. For example, she had
been romantically involved with both Hank Pym and Simon Williams, neither
of which relationships had ever happened in the main MU.
Jack Bohn
>> On 28 Nov 2003 20:40:02 -0500, t...@panix.com (Tom Galloway) wrote:
>
>> >Rita-Yellowjacket is a pet peeve of mine. She's not an Avenger. Never was.
>I've been thinking about Rita, since the initial discussion of her Avenging
>status came up about two months back when the b+W proof of Ish.3's cover hit
>usenet. This is just a shot in the dark, so I'm happy to be corrected if
>this isn't the case, but...
>
>Rita eventually became a member of the Guardians of the Galaxy, am I right?
>
>The GotG are considered official Avengers reserve members, right? (Hence
>their presence on the cover to#3)
>
>So, doesn't that make Yellowjacket II de-facto an Avengers reservist?
>
>I'm not saying that she is or isn't worthy of the honour, just that this
>might be why she squeaks in...
Well, she became one when the Guardians had their own book, and
were collecting members like hotcakes; wouldn't they also have
that little Skrull girl?
--
-Jack
Michael Alan Chary
didn't try to restart the team during the Heroes Reborn phase probably
should turn in their membership card. I still haven't heard the instory
reason for that, and I missed the issue.
Tom Galloway
In article <bqe7r1$ifc$1...@panix1.panix.com>,
Michael Alan Chary <mch...@panix.com> wrote:
>So, Tom, where doyou stand on Spider-Man? Personally, I think anyone who
>didn't try to restart the team during the Heroes Reborn phase probably
>should turn in their membership card. I still haven't heard the instory
>reason for that, and I missed the issue.
OK, so here's how I'd classify the various Avengers on the rolls, per the
cover of JLA/Avengers #3:
No, she's not an Avenger:
Yellowjacket II
Um, it was a good joke, but Jarvis is *not* going to let you in the Mansion
unsupervised:
Dinah Soar
Doorman
Flatman
Mr. Immortal
Big Bertha
(i.e. the Great Lakes Avengers)
Not only insignificant, a braindead decision to begin with:
Moira Brandon
Masque
We like you, we really like you, but your "membership" is honorary and
nothing more:
Aleeta
Charlie 27
Major Victory
Martinex
Nikki
Starhawk
Yondu
Two-Gun Kid
Whizzer
Captain Marvel
Hellcat
Swordsman II
Magdalene
Marrina
Stingray
"And you are?": People Jarvis wouldn't even recognize, due to their never
having participated in a mission as an Avenger, other than kitchen sink
stories:
Darkhawk
Machine Man
Thing (OK, so Jarvis would certainly recognize Ben, and let him in for
the monthly floating poker game, but as an ally not a member).
Demolition Man (note: I actually really like the character, think he has
more "Avengers spirit" than most, and like how he joined as Cap's first
recruit to put the team back together when it was down to just Jarvis
and Cap. But he "died" at the end of his first mission with just Cap,
and until Avengers v3 #1 had never even met any other Avenger than the
Thing or been in Avengers Mansion, so he has to go here).
OK, we're establishing a retroactive prohibation period; you only get counted
as a "real" Avenger if you were part of an actual Avengers team for more
than a handful of missions, otherwise off to the honoraries (i.e. the writer
who added these characters left soon after, and the next one didn't want to
use them).
Gilgamesh
Human Torch I
Invisible Woman
Mister Fantastic
Moondragon
Rage
Sandman
Silverclaw
Spider-Man
Special Cases (getting in on the ground floor counts):
Hulk (only escapes the above category due to being a founder)
Rick Jones (honorary, but around enough in the early days to get special
consideration)
Took You Long Enough (characters who'd been participating in Avengers missions
for years, were made members, and then vanished from the book. So I'm willing
to count 'em as mainstream Avengers, but wouldn't blame someone for not doing
so. If they'd been made Avengers near the start of their appearances, they'd
go into the One-Writer ones below):
Mantis
Jocasta
Um, what were we thinking again? (They had a fair run, and so don't fit into
any of the above, but they belong to the Vibe class of members that the
others just don't talk about much):
Deathcry
Doctor Druid
Thunderstrike
Moon Knight
USAgent
Dead and/or Seriously Inactive and don't fall into the above:
Mockingbird
Swordsman
War Machine
One-Trick, er, Writer Ponies (Really only used significantly as a regular
Avenger by one writer, with sporadic guest appearances afterwards. But they
do have long enough tenure that Jarvis wouldn't lift an eyebrow if any of
'em showed up for lunch at the Mansion):
Ant-Man II
Black Panther
Black Widow
Crystal
Firebird
Firestar
Jack of Hearts
Justice
Living Lightning
Photon
Quasar
Sersi
Spider-Woman II
Starfox
Sub-Mariner
Triathalon
(Note: Of course, Justice, Ant-Man, Firestar, Jack of Hearts, Triathalon,
and for that matter Silverclaw could move up if future writers start
or continue to use them).
(Note: Kurt did a good job of bringing back a lot of these and making
signficant use of them, but not to the point of making them regular
significant parts of stories/active teams).
Reliable Back-Ups (used by at least two long running writers as team
regulars for a fair amount of time):
Beast
Black Knight
Falcon
Hercules
Quicksilver
She-Hulk
Tigra
Warbird
Bedrocks (they keep coming back, used frequently through the years by
multiple writers):
Hawkeye
Scarlet Witch
Vision
Wonder Man
Founders:
Thor
Iron Man
Ant-Man/Giant-Man/Goliath/Yellowjacket/Dr. Pym
Wasp
Captain America
Which leaves what I'd consider core Avengers membership, those who you'd
give a call to when the next membership reorg happens, at 33. Basically
everyone from One-Writer Ponies through Founders. While I'm personally iffy
on a fair number of the One-Writers, they did have a long enough run to
be considered established Avengers.
tyg t...@panix.com
Janus
@panix1.panix.com:
> I think anyone who
> didn't try to restart the team during the Heroes Reborn phase probably
> should turn in their membership card. I still haven't heard the instory
> reason for that, and I missed the issue.
Widow was the chairwoman at the time, and blamed herself for their
'deaths.' Consequently she went solo, avenging the Heroes reborn in a more
pro-active manner. If the others couldn't allocate time when the HR were on
Earth, it's unlikely they'd make the scarifice after they (Cap et al.) were
gone.
Glenn Simpson
No, it shouldn't be on there. The rules for inclusion are not the
costume change, it's the name change.
Diana is on there twice, once as "Wonder Woman" and another time as
"Diana". While Aquaman did have more than one costume, he was
"Aquaman" the whole time.
Glenn Simpson
I realize this may have been covered somewhere else, but when were the
following people members of the JLA?:
Batgirl
Capt Comet
Sargon
Adam Strange.
I remember most of them working WITH the JLA at some point or another,
but I don't remember them being offered membership. I don't remember
Batgirl EVER being offered membership.
For that matter, Supergirl worked with the JLA a couple times, but I
assume she's left off due to her pre-Crisis-ness.
Sean MacDonald
"Glenn Simpson" <gls36...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1287ea8f.03120...@posting.google.com...
> "Mark J. Reed" <mark...@mail.com> wrote in message
news:<2003112918...@mulan.thereeds.org>...
>
> I realize this may have been covered somewhere else, but when were the
> following people members of the JLA?:
>
> Batgirl
> Capt Comet
> Sargon
> Adam Strange.
>
> I remember most of them working WITH the JLA at some point or another,
> but I don't remember them being offered membership.
Working with the Avengers seems to be all that was necessary for certain
characters to qualify as Avengers, so I assume something similar is true for
the JLA. However, I think Sargon and Adam Strange did at least qualify as
honorary members.
--
-Sean MacDonald
"The world began to change and without a word of explanation,
Something very strange started beckoning to you. When they came
to move your things you had packed a suitcase full of memories.
Nothing else to bring, except a different point of view." --Kansas
JVV4sm
>"Mark J. Reed" <mark...@mail.com> wrote in message
>news:<2003112918...@mulan.thereeds.org>...
>
>I realize this may have been covered somewhere else, but when were the
>following people members of the JLA?:
>
>Batgirl
>Capt Comet
>Sargon
>Adam Strange.
>
This is how comixfan.com explains it:
204. Batgirl I (bottom left corner) - JLA, made honorary member in Amazing
World of DC Comics #14
14. Captain Comet - JLA, made honorary member in DC Special #27
27. Sargon the Sorceror - JLA, made honorary member in Justice League of
America #99; died in Swamp Thing (2nd series) #150
17. Adam Strange - JLA, made honorary member in JLA: Secret Files #1
From:
http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22335
~consul
> What the heck, it was a slow Wednesday night and there's a four day weekend
> coming up....
(snipped the annotations)
From this, what is the storyline? It seems that it is a lot of pinups. I don't
see how they could work a story that has to have so many 'versions' of folks.
--
"When the darkness comes, those who once lived in the shadows will need to guide
the lost ones."
-till next time, Jameson Stalanthas Yu -x- <<poetry.dolphins-cove.com>>
con...@INVALIDdolphins-cove.com ((remove the INVALID to email))
Janus
news:bqijt1$io7$1...@gist.usc.edu:
> Tom Galloway wrote:
>> What the heck, it was a slow Wednesday night and there's a four day
>> weekend coming up....
>
> (snipped the annotations)
>
> From this, what is the storyline? It seems that it is a lot of
> pinups. I don't
> see how they could work a story that has to have so many 'versions' of
> folks.
Think multi-dimensional cosmic crisis, (ala Crisis on Infinite Earths,
Infinity Gauntlet, Zero Hour, Avengers Forever etc.)
Jay and Diane Rudin
> From this, what is the storyline? It seems that it is a lot of pinups. I
don't
> see how they could work a story that has to have so many 'versions' of
folks.
You don't get the storyline from annotations -- you get it by reading the
story.
Jay Rudin
~consul
I wasn't complaining that there wasn't a storyline explained in the annotations.
Just that from the annotations, there were so many group pinups on every page,
was it really necessary for them or if the storyline mandated so much. Do the
mechanics of getting 'everyone' pictured interfere with the mechanics of the
story flow.
I mean, isn't it sort of understood that this series is not so much as
story/plot intensive than as to how many members we can fit in?
... I don't mean that it's 'not worth it' as comics, but more like ... crap ...
a ??promo piece?? It's 'worth it' just to be made, I undertand that.
FWIW, I'm a casual Avengers and JLA reader, and usually love (most of the DC
ones like JLA/JSA) crossovers, but I just haven't mustered the effort to get
this one yet. I'll probably get the trade. And I am a continuity freak, so I
love seeing the current folks interact or reminise about 'the old days', which I
hear is great for this series.
Jim Longo
Avenger. That would include Yellowjacket II (she's on the faceboard
in vol. 3, #1) and most of the Guardians of the Galaxy (ditto), but
not the Great Lakes Avengers (who weren't there) or Aleta (who wasn't
a separate entity when Starhawk came to visit).
j.
Ralf Haring
<con...@INVALIDdolphins-cove.com> wrote:
>
>I wasn't complaining that there wasn't a storyline explained in the annotations.
>Just that from the annotations, there were so many group pinups on every page,
>was it really necessary for them or if the storyline mandated so much. Do the
>mechanics of getting 'everyone' pictured interfere with the mechanics of the
>story flow.
No, it was not necessary for the story. No, it does not interfere with
story flow unless the reader absolutely *must* know who every
background character is.
>I mean, isn't it sort of understood that this series is not so much as
>story/plot intensive than as to how many members we can fit in?
>
>... I don't mean that it's 'not worth it' as comics, but more like ... crap ...
>a ??promo piece?? It's 'worth it' just to be made, I undertand that.
I don't think it can be considered a promo piece since *so* many of
the characters that show up aren't even in the current JLA or Avengers
books, nor are they ever likely to be again except for roll-call
issues.
-Ralf Haring
"The mind must be the harder, the heart the keener,
the spirit the greater, as our strength grows less."
-Byrhtwold, The Battle of Maldon
Mark J. Reed
> >
> >"Mark J. Reed" <mark...@mail.com> wrote in message
> >news:<2003112918...@mulan.thereeds.org>...
> >
> >I realize this may have been covered somewhere else, but when were the
> >following people members of the JLA?:
[snip]
That actually wasn't me who asked that question; someone else just
quoted from me before asking it. But thanks for answering it! :)
-Mark
John
>
>I'm not kurt, but i've thought, as soon i saw hawkeye walk in the
>door, that he would play a huge role in the end, in a tribute to his
>trumping of the Grandmaster in the Contest of Champions.
Refresh my memory. I don't remember Hawkeye having a major role to play in
contest. I remember talisman and Invisible girl whipping off the "unkown's"
hood though.
-John
-John Bilow
my email address is fake. Instead, you can contact me by replacing the word "boy" with my last name.
N Leggatt
>
> >
> >I'm not kurt, but i've thought, as soon i saw hawkeye walk in the
> >door, that he would play a huge role in the end, in a tribute to his
> >trumping of the Grandmaster in the Contest of Champions.
>
> Refresh my memory. I don't remember Hawkeye having a major role to play in
> contest. I remember talisman and Invisible girl whipping off the "unkown's"
> hood though.
>
> -John
>
now that, I am not sure *I* remember. (it rings a vague bell; I have
the comics in storage, but am too lazy to look it up.) are we talking
about the same thing? I am talking about the three-issue limited
series called Contest Of Champions, where heroes from all over the
world fought one another at the behst of the grandmaster and some
other cosmic entity. It starred the thing, sasquatch, angel fighting
a french flying guy who knew savate, and a chinese guy who could
summon the strength of his 5 billion countrymen. I am not talking
about the avengers contest from an Annual, with Grandmaster forcing
them to fight their dead comrades. that had Death, IIRC, possibly
with her face covered.
anyway, in the end of the one i am talking about...
this is a spoiler, of sorts, for a very old comic....
....
hawkeye pulled a fast one of the Grandmaster by betting all or nothing
on a version of the old "longest straw" game --- only hawkeye cheated
by breaking off the arrow head in his hand, and grandmaster lost.
N
Jim Longo
I don't think you're all talking about the same thing. Hawkeye wasn't
a major player in the first Contest of Champions--he wasn't an Avenger
at that point, and wasn't one of the five who had just been cut
(Beast, Wonder Man, Vision, Scarlet Witch, Jocasta), so there was no
"hey, this character's hot, let's use him to boost sales" motivation.
The Contest I remember was published in 1980, and was meant to be a
superhero Olympics--only, when the NATO countries boycotted the Moscow
Olympics that year, that idea went out the window. Instead, the
Grandmaster played a game with an unknown entity to resurrect his
brother the Collector (who'd been killed a few years before during the
AVENGERS Korvac 12-parter). All the heroes on Earth--including a
half-dozen or so characters created specifically for this miniseries
and rarely seen afterwards--were kidnapped and brought to an arena
somewhere in space; the Grandmaster and the unknown entity each chose
12 heroes and broke them up into four squads of three, to search for
four pieces of a generic Object of Great Power. In order, the fights
were:
ARCTIC CIRCLE (North)
Grandmaster's team of Daredevil, Darkstar, and Talisman (one of the
one-shots--an aborigine from Australia) def. Entity's team of Sunfire,
Invisible Woman, and Iron Fist
ABANDONED AMERICAN FRONTIER TOWN (West)
Entity's team of Iron Man, Sabra, and Arabian Knight def.
Grandmaster's team of Captain Britain, She-Hulk, and Defensor (another
one shot, a Captain America-type from Argentina)
CHINESE ARCHEOLOGICAL DIG (East)
Grandmaster's team of Thing, Wolverine, and Peregrine (one shot, a
flying hero from France) def. Entity's team of Angel, Black Panther,
and Vanguard (ironic that Darkstar and her brother ended up on
different sides)
AMAZON JUNGLE (South)
Entity's team of Shamrock, Collective Man (one-shot, from China, could
draw on the collective power of the full Chinese population), and one
other hero that I can't remember (but probably a flier) def.
Grandmaster's team of Captain America, Sasquatch, and Blitzkrieg
(one-shot, electrically-powered hero from Germany)
Here's where it gets tricky. Technically, the score was 2-2, but the
entity said that the Grandmaster had won 3-1. The Grandmaster
prepared to use the Object of Great Power to resurrect the Collector,
but the Australian hero Talisman realized that, for this to work, an
equally-powerful lifeforce had to be sacrificed. He also had
suspicions about the Entity's identity, so he enlisted the Invisible
Woman to reveal it. Sue snuck up on the Entity and pulled off its
hood--revealing Death. Death acknowledged that the Object could
indeed resurrect the Collector, but only at the cost of the
Grandmaster's life, or the lives of all the assembled heroes. The
Grandmaster chose to sacrifice himself, and the heroes were returned
to Earth.
j.
[All original message content © 2003 by James Stephen Longo.
This post is intended solely for Usenet newsgroups. If you are
reading it on another site, you should know that the author does not
visit this site and is not likely to do so in the future.
To e-mail me directly, use my first name, the word in, and my home
county (Queens): JiminQueens. It's a hotmail account. Feloniously
assault a spammer today.]
John
>johnb...@hotmail.com (John) wrote in message
> news:<d0gzb.18790$ZE1.10233@fed1read04>...
>> contest. I remember talisman and Invisible girl whipping off the "unkown's"
>> hood though.
>now that, I am not sure *I* remember. (it rings a vague bell; I have
>the comics in storage, but am too lazy to look it up.) are we talking
>about the same thing? I am talking about the three-issue limited
>series called Contest Of Champions, where heroes from all over the
>world fought one another at the behst of the grandmaster and some
>other cosmic entity. It starred the thing, sasquatch, angel fighting
>a french flying guy who knew savate, and a chinese guy who could
>summon the strength of his 5 billion countrymen. I am not talking
>about the avengers contest from an Annual, with Grandmaster forcing
>them to fight their dead comrades. that had Death, IIRC, possibly
>with her face covered.
>
>anyway, in the end of the one i am talking about...
>
>
>this is a spoiler, of sorts, for a very old comic....
>
>.....
>
>hawkeye pulled a fast one of the Grandmaster by betting all or nothing
>on a version of the old "longest straw" game --- only hawkeye cheated
>by breaking off the arrow head in his hand, and grandmaster lost.
>
>N
Are you sure you're not confusing the avengers/wca annual stories with the
contest of champions?
The Contest of Champions (the original one) was a three book series that ended
as I and another respondant described.
In the two part Avengers/West Coast Avengers story that you mentioned, the
collector was playing death in another game for the Grandmaster's sake and
that ended exactly with the scene you describe.
It's possible that you're thinking of a third story that I haven't read, but
Grandmaster's not so stupid that he would be fooled twice by the same trick by
the same person is he? Of course, the fact that he fell for it once make me
question his intelligence, but really....
N Leggatt
>>Are you sure you're not confusing the avengers/wca annual stories
with the
contest of champions?
>>The Contest of Champions (the original one) was a three book series
that ended as I and another respondant described.
>>In the two part Avengers/West Coast Avengers story that you
mentioned, the
collector was playing death in another game for the Grandmaster's sake
and
that ended exactly with the scene you describe. <<
yes, that is exactly what i did. i conflated, in my mind, the
avengers/wca annual with the CoC, believing the ending to the annual
events was the ending to the CoC. I do have them both and read them
both, but, well, I guess I'm getting old and senile.
Anyhoo, what I guess I meant to say was, when I first saw Hawkeye walk
in the door in jla/avengers #3, i thought, "Kurt will have him trump
the grandmaster just like he did in the WCA annual when they fought
those dead avengers."
Thanks for clarifying my confusion.
N
Michael R. Grabois ... change $ to "s"
>Annotations for JLA/Avengers #3 follow. ...
>Page 16:
>The Daily Planet globe is usually at the top of the Daily Planet building
>in Metropolis in the DCU. I can't quite make out the name of the gallery
>in the sign above Vision and Aquaman's heads in the last panel, and what
>I can see isn't triggering any recognition of past creators' names.
That's "Mankuta Galleries", presumably named after Jon Mankuta, a big-time
collector of original comic art and (if I'm remembering the right guy) a big
Perez fan as well. I'm pretty sure Mankuta is the one who bought the covers to
all 12 issues of "Crisis" even before they had been drawn.
--
Michael R. Grabois # http://chili.cjb.net # http://wizardimps.blogspot.com
"People say losing builds character. That's the stupidest thing I ever
heard. All losing does is suck. " -- Charles Barkley, 9/29/96
JVV4sm
>On 27 Nov 2003 03:07:49 -0500, t...@panix.com (Tom Galloway) wrote:
>
>>Annotations for JLA/Avengers #3 follow. ...
>
>>Page 16:
>>The Daily Planet globe is usually at the top of the Daily Planet building
>>in Metropolis in the DCU. I can't quite make out the name of the gallery
>>in the sign above Vision and Aquaman's heads in the last panel, and what
>>I can see isn't triggering any recognition of past creators' names.
>
>That's "Mankuta Galleries", presumably named after Jon Mankuta, a big-time
>collector of original comic art and (if I'm remembering the right guy) a big
>Perez fan as well. I'm pretty sure Mankuta is the one who bought the covers
>to
>all 12 issues of "Crisis" even before they had been drawn.
>
Yeppers -- comixfan.com's annotation mentions it likeso:
Page 16, Panel 8: Mankuta Galleries is a homage to comic book art collector
Jonathan Mankuta. The Daily Planet is the major newspaper of Metropolis in the
DC Universe where Superman's reporter alter-ego Clark Kent works. Located at
the corner of Fifth Street and Concord Lane, the Daily Planet first appeared in
Action Comics #23.