The Diary of Tinya Wazzo: Entry #66
Oracles2
Entry #66
~For those in our studio audience who don't know, Oracles2 is two folks,
Trace, who does her fabulous Triad reviews, and H., which is me. In honour of
DC 1,000,000 being over, I've decided to add my own two credits to this week's
L* 66. I would never dream of writing in the voice of Trace's fave character,
Luornu, who seems to have a sniffle, or been possessed, or something of the
sort in this issue. I chose to write in Tinya-mode instead, as simpering as
she gets these days, and it'll help if you keep in mind that she talks like a
valley girl here. ;-) So, here we go, although God knows why. This issue was
terrible.~
Hi Diary, it's me, Tinya again, Lu's in the bathroom. Purple would say in the
can, but then she spent too much time watching television in the 20th, I
think. Jo's off with the boys, you know boys, playing something or other. I
never keep track of those sports things he's so into. ;-) But back to Lu,
she's has such a terrible time of things lately!
But I'm getting ahead of myself. First off, there's Lyle's past. We were all
gabbing about it later, that Imra's *such* a gossip when she gets going! ;-)
Don't believe *her* when she says she scrupulously stays out of the minds of
her teammates, no! Why she was nosing around Lyle's brain all this issue! ;-)
Anyway, it seems Lyle got into some trouble when he was checking out an
anonymous tip about a casino. Well. On Friday night, no less. Go Lyle! ;-)
Funny that he didn't bring a date or backup along, to make things look less
suspicious than one Legionnaire going to a casino alone, but hey, not everyone
can be like Jo. Or Chuck, apparently. I dunno, though, I like my men with a
little less brain, among *other* things. :-) Ah, Lu.
So Charma, as it turns out, is behind the casino's illicit actions, and so she
decides to kidnap Lyle and kill him, even though he would never, as he told
Imra later (I swear!) have figured out she was his old spy bud Mara on his
own! She then decides to stroll down memory lane with him, to the tune of wild
female irrational impulses. I get 'em all the time, so they're *obviously*
real. Jo can tell you more about 'em though. What did I ever do without him? I
can't even remember! :-)
In the meantime, Violet has asked Chuck out on a date, and he's accepted. But
what has begun as a simple 'going to the holos' turns into something far
different, while Lu Total, who knows how Mid feels about Chuck, kind of
doesn't know what to think of his double-timing. Like, I know what *I'd* think
if someone had tried to do that with Jo! I would've scratched Shvaughn Erin's
*eyes* out in the 20th, I *swear*! It's part of why Jo and I got married after
all. You *know* Imra still can't stand to see anyone near Cos or Garth, that
girl's got issues, let me tell you. But this is Vi, so everyone has to tiptoe
around her, because she's in a major self-pity mode. Why, around her, you can
barely recognize people by how they act!
Back to Lyle. More torture, as Charma uses her powers on him to make him 'fess
up all sorts of stuff about his past. He's not Jo, so I didn't really listen
to this part. Something about a brother, family, yadda-yadda, and Charma talks
about herself. She's so *obviously* jealous about Lyle, his fame, his money,
his family, and, well, probably everything else. Wasn't she plain when she was
little? I mean really, she *needed* to be a spy, she would never have fit into
the Legion even with her charm powers. Get it? ;-) And those clothes? She's
rich and powerful and she's shy at heart, so she dresses like that? I looked
better dead. But the chemicals at least gave her something to put *in* the
suit, she could make a fortune just selling *her* formula on the market! But
she's obviously too evil for that. Vi should make her own fortune selling her
shyness tips on latenight vids! ;-)
Back to Lu. Hey, she's only my best friend! Yes, all of her, there are
benefits to knowing all of Triad, especially Purple. ;-) So she's just kind of
standing around fuming as Vi pathetically tries to get some self-esteem off
the admiration of some of the guys who were hanging around. Which is fine for
the other guys (*Wait* until I tell *Spark* who was *flirting*! She will only
*die*!) but not my guy. I know he has a roving eye, but I'm ready to throw a
hysterical fit whenever he even *thinks* about another woman! So there! :-)
And Vi, darling, what were you wearing? Ugh, majorly ugh. Dear, Zoe's a
zombie, I know you must've noticed by now, she can't even dress herself if
that Sluts Are Us outfit she was wearing was any example. Puh-lease! :-p Women
of the LSH get some taste! What happened to all those nice clothes from Date
Night? So Zoe the Zombie (Isn't that funny? Jo snorted drink out his nose when
*I* came up with that one. *Me*, people!) dressed Chuck too, and off they go.
I mean, Jo wouldn't be able to walk right if he'd done this to *me*. It's a
good thing Lu-Mid got restrained, I *guess*. :-1
*Sigh*, back to Lyle. Y'know, I thought for a while that *I* should lead the
Espionage Squad, but dying gave me a much better perspective, don't you think?
Anyway, someone frees him from his bonds while Charma's ranting and then helps
him beat her up as she comes to kill him. See? This is why Lyle, the great
spy, is in charge! :-D So his helper is his brother.... *What* was that guy's
name again? Jack, Jake, Jock--no, that's *Jo's* nickname! :-D Jacques, that's
it! ;-) He's behind it, but he won't show up. Lyle, who knows all, has
probably guessed that his supposed bro's been co-opted by Lyle's old bosses
and is now living a hellish life of being controlled like a slave by heartless
people who are barely keeping him alive and forcing him to use a power that
may kill him! Well, it's what *I'd* be thinking, if I bothered to, that is.
;-) Nice of Lyle to go looking for Jack or whatever when he *knew* he was
alive. That's the way to repay family, right there!
And then the date again. Well, wasn't this different from Lu's first date with
Chuck? I mean, she got a Gingold, and Vi got the whole song and dance! I think
Vi went on all *three* of the Triad's dates from Date Night, no? Enough for a
good old-fashioned cat-fight right there! ;-) And then, to top it all off (I
was hanging out the window when they got back because I wanted to see what
they'd *do*!), I saw Violet kissin' Chuckie-Claus! :-D Yes, lip-lock happened!
:-) Ooo, I *ran* and told Lu, the way any best friend would, and I made sure
Jo was up and dressed early for once so's we wouldn't miss the show in the
cafeteria! Why, do you ask, wouldn't I go on my own? Well that's a silly
question, why go anywhere without your guy?! Someone might think you're
breaking up, or not even know you *have* one! :-o
So, the fight. I remember Lyle was down there while Imra was picking his brain
again--oh, you know she spouts all that stuff about how she doesn't really
read the minds of her teammates or anything, but *really*. It's why I always
think about nothing when she's around! :-) But that old stuff wasn't
important, what was really important was how Lu was going to react to *Vi*!
:-)
Vi, after *thanking* Chuck, walks over to where Lu's gone all fetal, poor
girl. I sat up with her for hours while we talked about stuff, like how she
was the only girl in the LSH who'd be *expected* to share her boyfriend
because there's enough of him to go around (Jo loves *that* joke too!), and
because it's *Vi*! Since she was so weak-minded to get taken over by the Eye
and can't seem to get past it, we all have to, like I said, go easy on the
girl. So she theoretically gets to date whoever she wants, except Jo, and I'll
bet if she set her sights on Cos or Garth Imra'd pound her royally! Don't
think high and mighty wouldn't, either!
But get this: Lu listens to Vi's 'explanation' about how it was *just* a date.
Sure it was, honey. But there's no fight, Lu falls apart unexpectedly and they
all start to hug! See? I think Lu didn't get enough sleep, and after that
seminar we all had to attend on 'not upsetting Violet', we all know better
than to fight with her! Besides, Chuck's not worth it, as I told Lu. After
all, only Mid likes him *anyway*, but you know how Total is. ;-)
So it all ends well, with that sanctimonious Imra and stuffy old Lyle talking
about the contrast of Charma to Vi. Well, Lyle was, Imra told us about it
later, like I said. I mean really, Lyle, you're getting as bad as Vi! But he
was right, you know. If only Charma had given up her shyness and thrown
herself at Lyle when he'd wanted her way back when at that old training camp
or black hole or whatever it was, then she would've been fine. Because she
didn't, it should've been obvious to Lyle that she was evil, and wanted a
killer bod so's she could dress like that and try to kill him on down the
line!
Anyway, Lu's still in the bathroom, and Jo's still not here, so I have
absolutely nothing to do. I mean obviously, if a girl is miserable, she wants
to be alone for it, right?
~The moral of this story? If only Charma had asked Lyle on a date, she
could've been *almost* as good a person as Violet obviously is! :-( Thanks for
that overblown morality play. If this is characterization, can we stick to
mindless action, please? Pretty please?~
H.
Jencomx3
Heidi thanks for a great little insight in the mind of our girl, Tinya! I
LOVED IT! I laughed, I cried..heh well I didn't cry but I was laughing so hard
some tears were coming down my face! ORACLES! Coolness!
heh heh! Now where were the other sixty five enteries? : )
Jen
LLL
Triad for Leadersss!!!!!!!
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
: OMIGOD!! NOW this is the kind of POST that one can read over and over again!
Agreed. Well done, Heidi! More!
- Elayne
--
Girls, girls. You're both pretty! Now take it to email, please.
- Chris Pierson <cpie...@tiac.net>
commenting on a Usenet flamewar
("I stole it from Homicide anyway")
T. Troy McNemar
>: OMIGOD!! NOW this is the kind of POST that one can read over and over again!
>
>Agreed. Well done, Heidi! More!
But please post it to alt.comics.fan-fiction instead of here. To make
sure that your story gets read, you might post a pointer here on racdl
that announces that the story has been posted to acf-f.
Fan fiction that includes trademarked characters is off-topic on the rac*
groups.
--
T. Troy McNemar Tro...@primenet.com
"Etov 'ON' no cer.stra.fs.namrepus."
-Zatanna the concerned rac.*er
Favorite Comic of the Week: LEGIONNAIRES #66
Runner-up: LEGENDS OF THE DC UNIVERSE #11
LLL!
Jencomx3
>Fan fiction that includes trademarked characters is off-topic on the rac*
Well I didn't really consider this a fan fiction! IT was just a viewpoint of
the story! Heidi could have written the same thing as Heidi..instead she
entertained us with her views in a new way! I liked reading it here..I would
have missed it anywhere else!
Jen
cpad...@nfld.com
fire...@panix.com (Elayne Wechsler-Chaput) wrote:
>
> Jencomx3 (jenc...@aol.com) wrote:
>
> : OMIGOD!! NOW this is the kind of POST that one can read over and over
> again!
>
> Agreed. Well done, Heidi! More!
More? Elayne, do you believe I practically had to twist the girl's arm to get
her to *post* that? She was going to delete it! The horrible thing? This isn't
the best she's done. If only the nass-head would get the nerve to *post*!
Grrrrrrrr!!! *Writers*!!! But then, I know you *know* what I mean better than
I do!!! :-D
~ tracy (Thanks. H will be *thrilled* to see that you liked it!!! :-D)
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
pyth...@my-dejanews.com
Tro...@primenet.com (T. Troy McNemar) wrote:
> Previously on rec.arts.comics.dc.lsh, fire...@panix.com (Elayne
> Wechsler-Chaput) wrote:
> >Jencomx3 (jenc...@aol.com) wrote:
>
> >: OMIGOD!! NOW this is the kind of POST that one can read over and over
> > again!
> >
> >Agreed. Well done, Heidi! More!
>
Okay. But it wasn't a story. If you read between the lines, H wrote a review.
It was a hilarious review that made *no* attempt at objectivity, but that's
why it's **sooooooo** good!!! >;-D Didn't have a clue that comics.fan-fiction
even existed, myself.
> To make
> sure that your story gets read, you might post a pointer here on racdl
> that announces that the story has been posted to acf-f.
Didn't it read like a really funny tongue-in-cheek review? :-o I got it. :-(
> Fan fiction that includes trademarked characters is off-topic on the rac*
> groups.
Thanks Troy. I'll pass it on to her, 'kay? Nass-head is too creative for her
own good. ;-)
~ tracy (LLLUORNU!!!)
pyth...@my-dejanews.com
jenc...@aol.com (Jencomx3) wrote:
> >
> >Fan fiction that includes trademarked characters is off-topic on the rac*
>
> the story! Heidi could have written the same thing as Heidi..
Yes. Yes she could have. It's a disorder of some kind. I'm almost sure of it!
;-) Gotta love H's take on the current Tinya though, no? Apps is nothing like
the girl who we started the series with. No. Prom-queen, valley-girl seemed to
fit Tins, somehow. Think she'd make a good cheer-leader as they have her
currently, Jen? ;-)
Ben Weiss
>
> In article <362e66dd....@news.primenet.com>,
> Tro...@primenet.com (T. Troy McNemar) wrote:
> > But please post it to alt.comics.fan-fiction instead of here.
>
> Okay. But it wasn't a story. If you read between the lines, H wrote a review.
> It was a hilarious review that made *no* attempt at objectivity, but that's
> why it's **sooooooo** good!!! >;-D
Agreed. By Troy's logic, Tracy's "Triad and True Reviews" are
borderline off-topic. I say H should keep posting those things right
here. (And what's this I hear about the "State of the Umbra," H.?)
Ben
eleme...@lsh.org
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
: Previously on rec.arts.comics.dc.lsh, fire...@panix.com (Elayne
: Wechsler-Chaput) wrote:
: >Jencomx3 (jenc...@aol.com) wrote:
: >: OMIGOD!! NOW this is the kind of POST that one can read over and over again!
: >
: >Agreed. Well done, Heidi! More!
: But please post it to alt.comics.fan-fiction instead of here.
ABSOLUTELY disagree. This was a SYNOPSIS of the ACTUAL ISSUE from a
character's point of view. It wasn't fanfic, it was a review-in-
character.
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
: In article <70firc$r...@panix3.panix.com>,
: fire...@panix.com (Elayne Wechsler-Chaput) wrote:
: >
: > Jencomx3 (jenc...@aol.com) wrote:
: >
: > : OMIGOD!! NOW this is the kind of POST that one can read over and over
: > again!
: >
: > Agreed. Well done, Heidi! More!
: More? Elayne, do you believe I practically had to twist the girl's arm to get
: her to *post* that? She was going to delete it! The horrible thing? This isn't
: the best she's done. If only the nass-head would get the nerve to *post*!
Friggin' Newfies. :)
What she said, Heidi. Tracy's right, you should post a lot more often.
T. Troy McNemar
Wechsler-Chaput) wrote:
>This was a SYNOPSIS of the ACTUAL ISSUE from a
>character's point of view. It wasn't fanfic, it was a review-in-
>character.
Elayne, what distinction are you making that excludes retellings of
stories from a character's point of view from being considered fan
fiction? And, more importantly, how does your distinction address the
concerns about infringement on intellectual property that caused rac*ers
to prohibit fan fiction on rac*?
Mike Chary
>
>Elayne, what distinction are you making that excludes retellings of
>stories from a character's point of view from being considered fan
>fiction? And, more importantly, how does your distinction address the
>concerns about infringement on intellectual property that caused rac*ers
>to prohibit fan fiction on rac*?
That ain't why fanfic isn't allowed in the big 8. Fanfic isn't allowed
because newadmins don't want to propogate it, generally.
--
Court Philosopher and Barbarian, DNRC http://ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu/~fchary
Happy 100th birthday C. S. Lewis!
Happy 100th birthday, Paul Robeson!
"Ipsa scientia potestas est." - Roger Bacon
Jencomx3
>the girl who we started the series with. No. Prom-queen, valley-girl seemed
>to
>fit Tins, somehow. Think she'd make a good cheer-leader as they have her
>currently, Jen? ;-)
>
>~ tracy (LLLUORNU!!!)
GIMMIE A L.....L
GIMMIE A S......S
GIMMIE A BREAK!!! this is not our Tinya...heh this is something else! Man
you'd think recombining her with Phase would only seek to make her even more
driven..not have the reverse effect!
Jen
LLL
and TRIAD for LEADERsss!!!!
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
: Wechsler-Chaput) wrote:
: >This was a SYNOPSIS of the ACTUAL ISSUE from a
: >character's point of view. It wasn't fanfic, it was a review-in-
: >character.
: Elayne, what distinction are you making that excludes retellings of
: stories from a character's point of view from being considered fan
: fiction?
Fanfic usually involves making up NEW stories featuring familiar
characters, Troy-- not posters doing reviews of actual published issues
pretending to be a character.
Jencomx3
>Agreed. By Troy's logic, Tracy's "Triad and True Reviews" are
>borderline off-topic. I say H should keep posting those things right
>here. (And what's this I hear about the "State of the Umbra," H.?)
> Ben
> eleme...@lsh.org
I agree with Ben as long as we all don't mind why can;t the ever talented and
smart Heidi post her Diary here! I dont' look at fan fic pages..but I read all
the things posted here! I want to see the Diary here!
What do the rest of you think? Ya agree with Ben and I or you think it should
be elsewhere?
jen
Jencomx3
>ABSOLUTELY disagree. This was a SYNOPSIS of the ACTUAL ISSUE from a
>character's point of view. It wasn't fanfic, it was a review-in-
>character.
>
>--
YES what I said earlier and what Elayne is restating! THAT review was the same
as if Heidi had signed her name to it! ALL she did was give it a little
FLAVOR! make it a little SPICEY!!
heh
spicey
Jen
wo...@interlog.com
Why not send it to both??
pyth...@my-dejanews.com
Ben Weiss <benw...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> pyth...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >
> > In article <362e66dd....@news.primenet.com>,
> > Tro...@primenet.com (T. Troy McNemar) wrote:
>
> >
> > review. It was a hilarious review that made *no* attempt at objectivity,
> > but that's why it's **sooooooo** good!!! >;-D
>
> borderline off-topic. I say H should keep posting those things right
> here. (And what's this I hear about the "State of the Umbra," H.?)
Aaaaaaaaaaaahhhhh. Got the Janifesto, but didums miss the State of the Umbra
Address? ;-)
~ tracy :-)
pyth...@my-dejanews.com
> >>borderline off-topic. I say H should keep posting those things right
> >>here. (And what's this I hear about the "State of the Umbra," H.?)
> >> eleme...@lsh.org
> >
> >I agree with Ben as long as we all don't mind why can;t the ever talented and
> >smart Heidi post her Diary here! I dont' look at fan fic pages..but I read
all
> >the things posted here! I want to see the Diary here!
> >
> >What do the rest of you think? Ya agree with Ben and I or you think it
should
> >be elsewhere?
>
> Why not send it to both??
Elegant. Efficient. Logical! But, alas, if I don't commit the address to
memory, I'm not likely to send it there. But... what if it's
non-fanficishness *offends* the ficsters? Gak! ;-)
~ tracy
pyth...@my-dejanews.com
fire...@panix.com (Elayne Wechsler-Chaput) wrote:
> cpad...@nfld.com wrote:
> : In article <70firc$r...@panix3.panix.com>,
> : fire...@panix.com (Elayne Wechsler-Chaput) wrote:
> : >
> : > Jencomx3 (jenc...@aol.com) wrote:
> : >
> : > : OMIGOD!! NOW this is the kind of POST that one can read over and over
> : > again!
> : >
> : > Agreed. Well done, Heidi! More!
>
> : More? Elayne, do you believe I practically had to twist the girl's arm to
> : get her to *post* that? She was going to delete it! The horrible thing? This
> : isn't the best she's done. If only the nass-head would get the nerve to
> : *post*!
>
> Friggin' Newfies. :)
Lol!!! Nassin' Yanks. :-P
> What she said, Heidi. Tracy's right, you should post a lot more often.
Think Violet, only worse. But, since it went so well....
You'd never say I was shy in person, would you? ;-)
H. :-)
T. Troy McNemar
Wechsler-Chaput) wrote:
>T. Troy McNemar (Tro...@primenet.com) wrote:
>: Elayne, what distinction are you making that excludes retellings of
>: stories from a character's point of view from being considered fan
>: fiction?
>
>Fanfic usually involves making up NEW stories featuring familiar
>characters, Troy-- not posters doing reviews of actual published issues
>pretending to be a character.
Elayne, that answer does not respond to my question in any meaningful
manner. Is it your point that because the fan fiction in question
deviates from the normal pattern of fan fiction that it shouldn't be
considered fan fiction at all?
--
T. Troy McNemar Tro...@primenet.com
"Ekahs! Ekahs! Ekahs! Ekahs! Ekahs! Ekahs!
Ekahs ruoy ytoob! Ekahs ruoy ytoob!"
-Zatanna and the Sunshine Band
Favorite Comic of the Week:
Runner-up:
LLL!
R. Tang
>Wechsler-Chaput) wrote:
>>T. Troy McNemar (Tro...@primenet.com) wrote:
>
>>: Elayne, what distinction are you making that excludes retellings of
>>: stories from a character's point of view from being considered fan
>>: fiction?
>>
>>Fanfic usually involves making up NEW stories featuring familiar
>>characters, Troy-- not posters doing reviews of actual published issues
>>pretending to be a character.
>
>Elayne, that answer does not respond to my question in any meaningful
>manner. Is it your point that because the fan fiction in question
>deviates from the normal pattern of fan fiction that it shouldn't be
>considered fan fiction at all?
Well, it's not FICTION, is it?
It's an actual review, containing factual material, using the
perspective of a character within the reviewed piece to comment upon said
piece.
Allowed by the first amendment, the playwrights guidl, the
screenwriters guild and all sorts of people....
--
-Roger Tang, gwan...@u.washington.edu, Artistic Director PC Theatre
- Editor, Asian American Theatre Revue [NEW URL]
- http://www.abcflash.com/a&e/r_tang/aatr.html
-Declared 4-F in the War Between the Sexes
Jencomx3
>Elegant. Efficient. Logical! But, alas, if I don't commit the address to
>memory, I'm not likely to send it there. But... what if it's
>non-fanficishness *offends* the ficsters? Gak! ;-)
>
>~ tracy
Non fan ficishness??? heh heh ** ficsters>?** heh I just love all the new words
that tracy is constantly coming up with !
** Coolness!
:grins!
jen
Jencomx3
>Think Violet, only worse. But, since it went so well....
>You'd never say I was shy in person, would you? ;-)
>
>H. :-)
I'm sorry Heidi, but after meeting you both..shy is not the word I would use to
describe you! heh heh!
Jen
T. Troy McNemar
wrote:
>T. Troy McNemar <Tro...@primenet.com> wrote:
>>Elayne, that answer does not respond to my question in any meaningful
>>manner. Is it your point that because the fan fiction in question
>>deviates from the normal pattern of fan fiction that it shouldn't be
>>considered fan fiction at all?
>
> Well, it's not FICTION, is it?
Yes, in fact, it is fiction. Or are you claiming that the post was
written by Tinya Wazzo and that the events described in the post actually
happened?
> It's an actual review, containing factual material, using the
>perspective of a character within the reviewed piece to comment upon said
>piece.
And which includes various character experiences and emotions that have no
relation to the story that was told in L* #66.
I can certainly be convinced that the post was a legitimate review. In
fact, I'd welcome some real discussion of why this qualifies as a
legitimate review rather than fan fiction.
> Allowed by the first amendment, the playwrights guidl, the
>screenwriters guild and all sorts of people....
How is this relevant to the question of whether the post was fan fiction
and belongs on racdl?
--
T. Troy McNemar Tro...@primenet.com
"Ekahs! Ekahs! Ekahs! Ekahs! Ekahs! Ekahs!
Ekahs ruoy ytoob! Ekahs ruoy ytoob!"
-Zatanna and the Sunshine Band
Favorite Comic of the Week: BLACK PANTHER v2 #2
Runner-up: MAISON IKKOKU pt 8 #3
LLL!
Jonathan L. Miller
Troy McNemar) wrote:
> Previously on rec.arts.comics.dc.lsh, fire...@panix.com (Elayne
> Wechsler-Chaput) wrote:
> >T. Troy McNemar (Tro...@primenet.com) wrote:
>
> >: Elayne, what distinction are you making that excludes retellings of
> >: stories from a character's point of view from being considered fan
> >: fiction?
> >
> >Fanfic usually involves making up NEW stories featuring familiar
> >characters, Troy-- not posters doing reviews of actual published issues
> >pretending to be a character.
>
> Elayne, that answer does not respond to my question in any meaningful
> manner. Is it your point that because the fan fiction in question
> deviates from the normal pattern of fan fiction that it shouldn't be
> considered fan fiction at all?
>
Actually, I didn't think of it as fan fiction at all. I saw it as being a
review of an existing issue done in the voice of a character associated
with the issue. As such, I found it refreshing, much the way I find Tracy's
Triad reviews, which I've never seen you complain about, Troy.
By your logic, everytime Aaron Mojo makes a Bizarro post (including his
.sig, I suppose), he should confine it to fan fiction.
I enjoyed it, Heidi.
jonathan.
Dale Hicks
Okay, I don't really enjoy the in-character reviews (they're wordy
and distracting to me), I have no objection to them being posted
here. I've learned to scan for the few lines where trace (and others)
actually says something (an opinion, and not filler) and filter out
the rest. Hopefully I said that without being offending.
If there's a fear of a DC or USENET host reprisal, then maybe rerouting
it would be valid, but I don't see any need.
As for the fiction vs. review debate, I'll analyze the original post.
There are elements of both a review (that relies mainly on a plot
summary, but if we throw stones for that, I know of a few "reviewers"
that will need a new house) AND fiction.
Oracles2 <orac...@aol.com> wrote in article <705um2$j...@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>...
> The Diary of Tinya Wazzo
>
> Entry #66 [Spoilers for L* 66]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> So, here we go, although God knows why. This issue was
> terrible.~
review [with which I disagreed, but ...]
> Hi Diary, it's me, Tinya again, Lu's in the bathroom. Purple would say in the
> can, but then she spent too much time watching television in the 20th, I
> think. Jo's off with the boys, you know boys, playing something or other.
fiction
> But I'm getting ahead of myself. First off, there's Lyle's past. We were all
> gabbing about it later, that Imra's *such* a gossip when she gets going! ;-)
fiction AFAIK
> Don't believe *her* when she says she scrupulously stays out of the minds of
> her teammates, no! Why she was nosing around Lyle's brain all this issue! ;-)
Partial fiction, partial summary
> Anyway, it seems Lyle got into some trouble when he was checking out an
> anonymous tip about a casino. Well. On Friday night, no less.
summary
> Go Lyle! ;-)
review?
> Funny that he didn't bring a date or backup along, to make things look less
> suspicious than one Legionnaire going to a casino alone, but hey, not everyone
> can be like Jo. Or Chuck, apparently.
review
> I dunno, though, I like my men with a
> little less brain, among *other* things. :-) Ah, Lu.
fluff
> So Charma, as it turns out, is behind the casino's illicit actions, and so she
> decides to kidnap Lyle and kill him, even though he would never, as he told
> Imra later (I swear!) have figured out she was his old spy bud Mara on his
> own! She then decides to stroll down memory lane with him, to the tune of wild
> female irrational impulses.
summary
> I get 'em all the time, so they're *obviously*
> real. Jo can tell you more about 'em though. What did I ever do without him? I
> can't even remember! :-)
fiction
> In the meantime, Violet has asked Chuck out on a date, and he's accepted. But
> what has begun as a simple 'going to the holos' turns into something far
> different, while Lu Total, who knows how Mid feels about Chuck, kind of
> doesn't know what to think of his double-timing.
summary
> Like, I know what *I'd* think
> if someone had tried to do that with Jo! I would've scratched Shvaughn Erin's
> *eyes* out in the 20th, I *swear*! It's part of why Jo and I got married after
> all. You *know* Imra still can't stand to see anyone near Cos or Garth, that
> girl's got issues, let me tell you. But this is Vi, so everyone has to tiptoe
> around her, because she's in a major self-pity mode. Why, around her, you can
> barely recognize people by how they act!
fiction
> Back to Lyle. More torture, as Charma uses her powers on him to make him 'fess
> up all sorts of stuff about his past.
summary
> He's not Jo, so I didn't really listen
> to this part. Something about a brother, family, yadda-yadda, and Charma talks
> about herself.
fiction/review
> She's so *obviously* jealous about Lyle, his fame, his money,
> his family, and, well, probably everything else. Wasn't she plain when she was
> little? I mean really, she *needed* to be a spy, she would never have fit into
> the Legion even with her charm powers. Get it? ;-) And those clothes? She's
> rich and powerful and she's shy at heart, so she dresses like that? I looked
> better dead. But the chemicals at least gave her something to put *in* the
> suit, she could make a fortune just selling *her* formula on the market! But
> she's obviously too evil for that. Vi should make her own fortune selling her
> shyness tips on latenight vids! ;-)
review [which is off-target on Charma, IMO ...]
> Back to Lu. Hey, she's only my best friend! Yes, all of her, there are
> benefits to knowing all of Triad, especially Purple. ;-) So she's just kind of
> standing around fuming as Vi pathetically tries to get some self-esteem off
> the admiration of some of the guys who were hanging around.
summary
> Which is fine for
> the other guys (*Wait* until I tell *Spark* who was *flirting*! She will only
> *die*!) but not my guy.
review [others would simply make a comment about Spark and whoever I was
supposed to guess from this sentence, but ...]
> I know he has a roving eye, but I'm ready to throw a
> hysterical fit whenever he even *thinks* about another woman! So there! :-)
fiction
> And Vi, darling, what were you wearing? Ugh, majorly ugh. Dear, Zoe's a
> zombie, I know you must've noticed by now, she can't even dress herself if
> that Sluts Are Us outfit she was wearing was any example. Puh-lease! :-p Women
> of the LSH get some taste! What happened to all those nice clothes from Date
> Night?
review [of fashion :)]
> So Zoe the Zombie (Isn't that funny? Jo snorted drink out his nose when
> *I* came up with that one. *Me*, people!)
fiction
> dressed Chuck too, and off they go
summary
> I mean, Jo wouldn't be able to walk right if he'd done this to *me*. It's a
> good thing Lu-Mid got restrained, I *guess*. :-1
fiction
------------------------------------------------------------------
That's enough. I'm tired. But we can see that Troy and the League of
Heide Supporters (LHS, get it? I am so clever! wink, wink) are both
right. It's a review and fiction.
--
Jean-Claude Brain dhi...@gibralter.net
T. Troy McNemar
Miller) wrote:
>I saw it as being a
>review of an existing issue done in the voice of a character associated
>with the issue. As such, I found it refreshing, much the way I find Tracy's
>Triad reviews, which I've never seen you complain about, Troy.
I never read Tracy's Triad reviews. :)
Dan McEwen
McNemar) wrote:
>Previously on rec.arts.comics.dc.lsh, fire...@panix.com (Elayne
>Wechsler-Chaput) wrote:
>>T. Troy McNemar (Tro...@primenet.com) wrote:
>
>>: Elayne, what distinction are you making that excludes retellings of
>>: stories from a character's point of view from being considered fan
>>: fiction?
>>
>>Fanfic usually involves making up NEW stories featuring familiar
>>characters, Troy-- not posters doing reviews of actual published issues
>>pretending to be a character.
>
>Elayne, that answer does not respond to my question in any meaningful
>manner. Is it your point that because the fan fiction in question
>deviates from the normal pattern of fan fiction that it shouldn't be
>considered fan fiction at all?
The way I see it is that, regardless of whether she's writing it in a
fictional manner, it's a review. It would be kind of strange to set a
Legion review in alt.comics.fan-fiction. I suspect that if it were
posted there, she would be told that reviews of Legion comics belong
in racdl.
pyth...@my-dejanews.com
> >Previously on rec.arts.comics.dc.lsh, fire...@panix.com (Elayne
> >Wechsler-Chaput) wrote:
> >>T. Troy McNemar (Tro...@primenet.com) wrote:
> >
> >>: Elayne, what distinction are you making that excludes retellings of
> >>: stories from a character's point of view from being considered fan
> >>: fiction?
> >>
> >>Fanfic usually involves making up NEW stories featuring familiar
> >>characters, Troy-- not posters doing reviews of actual published issues
> >>pretending to be a character.
> >
> >Elayne, that answer does not respond to my question in any meaningful
> >manner. Is it your point that because the fan fiction in question
> >deviates from the normal pattern of fan fiction that it shouldn't be
> >considered fan fiction at all?
>
>
> perspective of a character within the reviewed piece to comment upon said
> piece.
>
> screenwriters guild and all sorts of people....
And it's a satire!!! What more could you ask?
~ tracy :-)
pyth...@my-dejanews.com
Tro...@primenet.com (T. Troy McNemar) wrote:
> Previously on rec.arts.comics.dc.lsh, fire...@panix.com (Elayne
> Wechsler-Chaput) wrote:
> >T. Troy McNemar (Tro...@primenet.com) wrote:
>
> >: Elayne, what distinction are you making that excludes retellings of
> >: stories from a character's point of view from being considered fan
> >: fiction?
> >
> >Fanfic usually involves making up NEW stories featuring familiar
> >characters, Troy-- not posters doing reviews of actual published issues
> >pretending to be a character.
>
> Elayne, that answer does not respond to my question in any meaningful
> manner. Is it your point that because the fan fiction in question
> deviates from the normal pattern of fan fiction that it shouldn't be
> considered fan fiction at all?
It's a satirical review, and I thought that it was okay to use a copyrighted
character for the purpose of something like that! Sorry anyway!
~ tracy
pyth...@my-dejanews.com
> Troy McNemar) wrote:
>
> > Previously on rec.arts.comics.dc.lsh, fire...@panix.com (Elayne
> > Wechsler-Chaput) wrote:
> > >T. Troy McNemar (Tro...@primenet.com) wrote:
> >
> > >: Elayne, what distinction are you making that excludes retellings of
> > >: stories from a character's point of view from being considered fan
> > >: fiction?
> > >
> > >Fanfic usually involves making up NEW stories featuring familiar
> > >characters, Troy-- not posters doing reviews of actual published issues
> > >pretending to be a character.
> >
> > Elayne, that answer does not respond to my question in any meaningful
> > manner. Is it your point that because the fan fiction in question
> > deviates from the normal pattern of fan fiction that it shouldn't be
> > considered fan fiction at all?
> >
> review of an existing issue done in the voice of a character associated
> with the issue. As such, I found it refreshing, much the way I find Tracy's
> Triad reviews, which I've never seen you complain about, Troy.
Well, I have to say a big thanks right here, Jonathan!!!
> By your logic, everytime Aaron Mojo makes a Bizarro post (including his
> .sig, I suppose), he should confine it to fan fiction.
>
> I enjoyed it, Heidi.
And another big thank-you. She's a bit sheepish about posts, and was starting
to feel a little cowed--jeeze it's a farmyard in here! ;-)
pyth...@my-dejanews.com
"Dale Hicks" <icono...@mail1.surfnet1NATASEVOLI.net> wrote:
>
> Okay, I don't really enjoy the in-character reviews (they're wordy
> and distracting to me), I have no objection to them being posted
> here. I've learned to scan for the few lines where trace (and others)
> actually says something (an opinion, and not filler) and filter out
> the rest. Hopefully I said that without being offending.
Dale *waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh*!!! How could you? ;-)
~ tracy (knows she's wordy)
pyth...@my-dejanews.com
"Dale Hicks" <icono...@mail1.surfnet1NATASEVOLI.net> wrote:
>
> <705um2$j...@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>...
> > The Diary of Tinya Wazzo
> >
> > Entry #66 [Spoilers for L* 66]
Okay, okay, guys. I get it. Point taken. :-)
~ tracy
fjto...@worldnet.att.net
> >What do the rest of you think? Ya agree with Ben and I or you think it
> >should be elsewhere?
>
> Why not send it to both??
>
Nice attempt at mediation but unfortunately, the fan-fic guys would object.
And they'd have every right to object.
Satirical, in-character reviews are *reviews*.
Not fiction.
They constitute fair use.
They are not plagiarism.
Nor libel.
Both aspects have been all the way up to the Supreme Court and recently.
(And yes, it is the U.S. Supreme court, folks!)
The in-character review is a staple of *printed* review columns.
You see them a lot in the local paper in Cleveland.
(The best review I ever saw of Clueless was done in that mode and I didn't
stop laughing for weeks.)
Might be worth remembering that all reviews, by definition, take a specific
viewpoint to analyze and critique a story.
The "character" doing the review can be a real human or a made-up one.
(Anybody remember the old Billy-Bob drive-in movie reviews. They were
nationally syndicated back in the 80's and absolutely hysterical. For all I
know they're still doing the.)
And the "character" can be one of the cast of the story.
Its a review guys.
Read it if you like it, skip it if you don't.
But it *only* belong one place and that is here.
Now lets move on, so I can keep on lurking in peace... ;-)
R. Tang
>wrote:
>>>manner. Is it your point that because the fan fiction in question
>>>deviates from the normal pattern of fan fiction that it shouldn't be
>>>considered fan fiction at all?
>>
>
Why? Sure doesn't fit in MY definition of fiction. It fits my
definition of a review.
Or are you claiming that the post was
>written by Tinya Wazzo and that the events described in the post actually
>happened?
>
>> It's an actual review, containing factual material, using the
>>perspective of a character within the reviewed piece to comment upon said
>>piece.
>
>And which includes various character experiences and emotions that have no
>relation to the story that was told in L* #66.
But relates to overall story, characterization and continuity,
which does have bearing on this issue.
>I can certainly be convinced that the post was a legitimate review. In
>fact, I'd welcome some real discussion of why this qualifies as a
>legitimate review rather than fan fiction.
>
>> Allowed by the first amendment, the playwrights guidl, the
>>screenwriters guild and all sorts of people....
>
>How is this relevant to the question of whether the post was fan fiction
>and belongs on racdl?
About as relevant as your claim that this is fiction.
T. Troy McNemar
>Satirical, in-character reviews are *reviews*.
>Not fiction.
Previously on rec.arts.comics.dc.lsh, gwan...@u.washington.edu (R. Tang)
wrote:
>Sure doesn't fit in MY definition of fiction. It fits my
>definition of a review.
The frustrating thing about this thread is that I'm not particularly
passionate about the subject, don't particularly want to see the fan
fiction banned to acf-f, and don't have any intention of acting as netcop
against these posts in the future. I would like to be convinced that the
posts are legitimate reviews rather than fan fiction.
That said, I'm dissatisfied with conclusory statements like those offered
above which start at the determination that the posts are reviews. I'd
appreciate some analysis of why people consider the posts to be reviews.
R. Tang
>
>>Satirical, in-character reviews are *reviews*.
>>Not fiction.
>
>Previously on rec.arts.comics.dc.lsh, gwan...@u.washington.edu (R. Tang)
>wrote:
>
>>Sure doesn't fit in MY definition of fiction. It fits my
>>definition of a review.
>
>The frustrating thing about this thread is that I'm not particularly
>passionate about the subject, don't particularly want to see the fan
>fiction banned to acf-f, and don't have any intention of acting as netcop
>against these posts in the future.
Yet you're acting like one with overly rigid definitions and
inappropriate categorizations. Why?
> I would like to be convinced that the
>posts are legitimate reviews rather than fan fiction.
If a post comments on a current issue with factual statements and
with subjective remarks, it's a review. It may be ALSO something else, but
it's a review.
>That said, I'm dissatisfied with conclusory statements like those offered
>above which start at the determination that the posts are reviews. I'd
>appreciate some analysis of why people consider the posts to be reviews.
No, the point here is why ISN'T it a review if it has those
qualities?
Jencomx3
>It's a satirical review, and I thought that it was okay to use a copyrighted
>character for the purpose of something like that! Sorry anyway!
>
>~ tracy
AND one that was done very well! DON"T be sorry Tracy!! I'd be more sorry if
you or Heidi stopped writing creative fantastic posts like that! I loved it!
IT rocked!
NEVAH SORRY girl! 'member??
Jen
cpad...@nfld.com
> Miller) wrote:
>
> >I saw it as being a
> >review of an existing issue done in the voice of a character associated
> >with the issue. As such, I found it refreshing, much the way I find Tracy's
> >Triad reviews, which I've never seen you complain about, Troy.
>
Hi Troy, it's H. :-) I think we've found the ultimate solution here, no? I'll
just join the category Trace's reviews are in, then. ;-) Thanks!
H.!
R. Tang
>wrote:
>> If a post comments on a current issue with factual statements and
>>with subjective remarks, it's a review. It may be ALSO something else, but
>>it's a review.
>
Why is this either/or? Binary thinking.
>> No, the point here is why ISN'T it a review if it has those
>>qualities?
>
>Then, is any post that satisfies the first sentence of yours quoted above
>a review regardless of what other content is included in the post?
Please. Answer the question. Why ISN'T this a review?
Dan McEwen
McNemar) wrote:
>Previously on rec.arts.comics.dc.lsh, gwan...@u.washington.edu (R. Tang)
>wrote:
>
>> If a post comments on a current issue with factual statements and
>>with subjective remarks, it's a review. It may be ALSO something else, but
>>it's a review.
>
>How far would you allow that definition to be stretched, though? If I
>post a 1000 line essay on why I think that Bill Clinton should resign and
>why "that hot chick from ABBA (no, the other one)" should be declared the
>next President by acclamation, then tack an "ObLSH - L* #66 was about
>Lyle, Vi and Chuck and was good." on the end, I've satisfied the
>definition that you offer.
True, but that's not what her post was about. It was as if Tinya
reviewed the events of L* #66. It's a far cry closer to "on-topic"
than any essay about Bill Clinton and ABBA.
It was just different stylistic review -- from a character's POV. It
obviously wasn't written by Tinya -- published in a DC comic -- so I
don't see how it falls outside of "review".
T. Troy McNemar
>>Previously on rec.arts.comics.dc.lsh, gwan...@u.washington.edu (R. Tang)
>>wrote:
>>> If a post comments on a current issue with factual statements and
>>>with subjective remarks, it's a review. It may be ALSO something else, but
>>>it's a review.
>>
>>How far would you allow that definition to be stretched, though?
>
> Why is this either/or? Binary thinking.
I must misunderstand your position, Roger, because it seems to me that
you're the one trying to impose an either/or binary test on whether a post
qualifies as a review or not. As I understand your argument, you believe
that "comments on a current issue with factual statements and with
subjective remarks" are a review and, therefore, are appropriately posted
in racdl. What I'm suggesting is that, in certain circumstances, there
can be a gray area between fan fiction and reviews and that some posts
might not be appropriately posted to racdl.
>>> No, the point here is why ISN'T it a review if it has those
>>>qualities?
>>
>>Then, is any post that satisfies the first sentence of yours quoted above
>>a review regardless of what other content is included in the post?
>
> Please. Answer the question. Why ISN'T this a review?
See above.
T. Troy McNemar
> Tro...@primenet.com (T. Troy McNemar) wrote:
>> I never read Tracy's Triad reviews. :)
>
>Hi Troy, it's H. :-) I think we've found the ultimate solution here, no? I'll
>just join the category Trace's reviews are in, then. ;-) Thanks!
Fine by me. Even if other participants are unable to convince me that
your posts are reviews rather than fan fiction, I do not intend to do
anything to prevent any future posts.
R. Tang
T. Troy McNemar <Tro...@primenet.com> wrote:
>Previously on rec.arts.comics.dc.lsh, gwan...@u.washington.edu (R. Tang)
>wrote:
>>T. Troy McNemar <Tro...@primenet.com> wrote:
>>>Previously on rec.arts.comics.dc.lsh, gwan...@u.washington.edu (R. Tang)
>>>wrote:
>
>>>> If a post comments on a current issue with factual statements and
>>>>with subjective remarks, it's a review. It may be ALSO something else, but
>>>>it's a review.
>>>
>>>How far would you allow that definition to be stretched, though?
>>
>> Why is this either/or? Binary thinking.
>
>I must misunderstand your position, Roger, because it seems to me that
>you're the one trying to impose an either/or binary test on whether a post
>qualifies as a review or not. As I understand your argument, you believe
>that "comments on a current issue with factual statements and with
>subjective remarks" are a review and, therefore, are appropriately posted
>in racdl. What I'm suggesting is that, in certain circumstances, there
>can be a gray area between fan fiction and reviews and that some posts
>might not be appropriately posted to racdl.
Yet, what is your definition of "greay area"? I can't tell, and
I'd say few other people can. If people can't tell, then calling it a gray
area is not very useful.
>>>> No, the point here is why ISN'T it a review if it has those
>>>>qualities?
>>>
>>>Then, is any post that satisfies the first sentence of yours quoted above
>>>a review regardless of what other content is included in the post?
>>
>> Please. Answer the question. Why ISN'T this a review?
>
>See above.
This is not a useful operationalization. Please use some concrete
examples.
T. Troy McNemar
wrote:
>T. Troy McNemar <Tro...@primenet.com> wrote:
>>I must misunderstand your position, Roger, because it seems to me that
>>you're the one trying to impose an either/or binary test on whether a post
>>qualifies as a review or not. As I understand your argument, you believe
>>that "comments on a current issue with factual statements and with
>>subjective remarks" are a review and, therefore, are appropriately posted
>>in racdl. What I'm suggesting is that, in certain circumstances, there
>>can be a gray area between fan fiction and reviews and that some posts
>>might not be appropriately posted to racdl.
>
> Yet, what is your definition of "greay area"? I can't tell, and
>I'd say few other people can. If people can't tell, then calling it a gray
>area is not very useful.
You want me to define the gray area?
Even assuming that is what you mean, it wouldn't be helpful. What we
ought to focus on is trying to identify when a post is too attenuated from
being a review to be appropriately posted on racdl. And if I had a test
for that, I'd be offering it rather than trying to explore the ideas.
>>> Please. Answer the question. Why ISN'T this a review?
>>
>>See above.
>
> This is not a useful operationalization. Please use some concrete
>examples.
That's what I'm asking you to do.
R. Tang
T. Troy McNemar <Tro...@primenet.com> wrote:
>Previously on rec.arts.comics.dc.lsh, gwan...@u.washington.edu (R. Tang)
>wrote:
>>T. Troy McNemar <Tro...@primenet.com> wrote:
>
>>>I must misunderstand your position, Roger, because it seems to me that
>>>you're the one trying to impose an either/or binary test on whether a post
>>>qualifies as a review or not. As I understand your argument, you believe
>>>that "comments on a current issue with factual statements and with
>>>subjective remarks" are a review and, therefore, are appropriately posted
>>>in racdl. What I'm suggesting is that, in certain circumstances, there
>>>can be a gray area between fan fiction and reviews and that some posts
>>>might not be appropriately posted to racdl.
>>
>> Yet, what is your definition of "greay area"? I can't tell, and
>>I'd say few other people can. If people can't tell, then calling it a gray
>>area is not very useful.
>
>You want me to define the gray area?
>
>Even assuming that is what you mean, it wouldn't be helpful. What we
>ought to focus on is trying to identify when a post is too attenuated from
>being a review to be appropriately posted on racdl. And if I had a test
>for that, I'd be offering it rather than trying to explore the ideas.
Then why bring it up? I think it's MUCH more useful to discuss
what the parameters are and pinpoint when it's too attenuated.
>>>> Please. Answer the question. Why ISN'T this a review?
>>>
>>>See above.
>>
>> This is not a useful operationalization. Please use some concrete
>>examples.
>
>That's what I'm asking you to do.
Hey, you're the one who brought up the topic; how about giving the
rest of us something to work with?
T. Troy McNemar
wrote:
>T. Troy McNemar <Tro...@primenet.com> wrote:
>>Previously on rec.arts.comics.dc.lsh, gwan...@u.washington.edu (R. Tang)
>>wrote:
>>>T. Troy McNemar <Tro...@primenet.com> wrote:
>>>>I must misunderstand your position, Roger, because it seems to me that
>>>>you're the one trying to impose an either/or binary test on whether a post
>>>>qualifies as a review or not. As I understand your argument, you believe
>>>>that "comments on a current issue with factual statements and with
>>>>subjective remarks" are a review and, therefore, are appropriately posted
>>>>in racdl. What I'm suggesting is that, in certain circumstances, there
>>>>can be a gray area between fan fiction and reviews and that some posts
>>>>might not be appropriately posted to racdl.
>>>
>>> Yet, what is your definition of "greay area"? I can't tell, and
>>>I'd say few other people can. If people can't tell, then calling it a gray
>>>area is not very useful.
>>
>>You want me to define the gray area?
>>
>>Even assuming that is what you mean, it wouldn't be helpful. What we
>>ought to focus on is trying to identify when a post is too attenuated from
>>being a review to be appropriately posted on racdl. And if I had a test
>>for that, I'd be offering it rather than trying to explore the ideas.
>
> Then why bring it up?
Why bring what up? If you mean the gray area, I brought it up because you
were claiming that my arguments were "binary thinking."
>I think it's MUCH more useful to discuss
>what the parameters are and pinpoint when it's too attenuated.
Er, yes, isn't that what I just said?
>>>>> Please. Answer the question. Why ISN'T this a review?
>>>>
>>>>See above.
>>>
>>> This is not a useful operationalization. Please use some concrete
>>>examples.
>>
>>That's what I'm asking you to do.
>
> Hey, you're the one who brought up the topic; how about giving the
>rest of us something to work with?
I'm not the proponent of the review exception to the fan fiction
prohibition, why would I offer definitions of what is and isn't a review?
R. Tang
T. Troy McNemar <Tro...@primenet.com> wrote:
>>>ought to focus on is trying to identify when a post is too attenuated from
>>>being a review to be appropriately posted on racdl. And if I had a test
>>>for that, I'd be offering it rather than trying to explore the ideas.
>>
>> Then why bring it up?
>
>Why bring what up? If you mean the gray area, I brought it up because you
>were claiming that my arguments were "binary thinking."
Sorry, but if you're going to play word games, I'm not playing.
T. Troy McNemar
>>>>ought to focus on is trying to identify when a post is too attenuated from
>>>>being a review to be appropriately posted on racdl. And if I had a test
>>>>for that, I'd be offering it rather than trying to explore the ideas.
>>>
>>> Then why bring it up?
>>
>>Why bring what up? If you mean the gray area, I brought it up because you
>>were claiming that my arguments were "binary thinking."
>
> Sorry, but if you're going to play word games, I'm not playing.
The response was honest. I do not know what you are referring to when you
use the pronoun "it" in the above-quoted sentence.
Jonathan L. Miller
Troy McNemar) wrote:
> Previously on rec.arts.comics.dc.lsh, gwan...@u.washington.edu (R. Tang)
> wrote:
>
> > If a post comments on a current issue with factual statements and
> >with subjective remarks, it's a review. It may be ALSO something else, but
> >it's a review.
>
> How far would you allow that definition to be stretched, though? If I
> post a 1000 line essay on why I think that Bill Clinton should resign and
> why "that hot chick from ABBA (no, the other one)" should be declared the
> next President by acclamation, then tack an "ObLSH - L* #66 was about
> Lyle, Vi and Chuck and was good." on the end, I've satisfied the
> definition that you offer.
>
> >>That said, I'm dissatisfied with conclusory statements like those offered
> >>above which start at the determination that the posts are reviews. I'd
> >>appreciate some analysis of why people consider the posts to be reviews.
> >
> > No, the point here is why ISN'T it a review if it has those
> >qualities?
>
> Then, is any post that satisfies the first sentence of yours quoted above
> a review regardless of what other content is included in the post?
>
Hmm. Wanted to snip, but it's all relevant....
And beside the point, Troy. The prime focus of your post about Clinton and
that ABBA woman was *not* the review of the L* issue. People would get on
your back about it being off topic and they'd be right to do so. Heidi's
prime focus *was* a review of that issue. You're just trying to set up a
straw man here, albeit (IMHO) unintentionally.
jonathan, wondering why we're arguing about this if Troy doesn't really care.
Jonathan L. Miller
Troy McNemar) wrote:
>
> I'm not the proponent of the review exception to the fan fiction
> prohibition, why would I offer definitions of what is and isn't a review?
>
Uh, because you declared something that was out-and-out stated to be a
review of L* 66 to be fan fiction. *You* were the person disputing its
status. Tell us why a review, even one written from the (satirical, as
Tracy has pointed out) viewpoint of one of the characters, should be
declared "fanfic" and off-limits to RACDL?
By the way, IIRC, alt.comics.fanfic was created back in the days of the LNH
simply to get it off RAC (no .misc yet at that point), and not because of
worries about copyrighted characters. But my old brain cells might be
atrophied enough to be wrong. ;-)
jonathan.
pyth...@my-dejanews.com
>
> >Satirical, in-character reviews are *reviews*.
> >Not fiction.
>
> >definition of a review.
>
> The frustrating thing about this thread is that I'm not particularly
> passionate about the subject, don't particularly want to see the fan
> fiction banned to acf-f, and don't have any intention of acting as netcop
> posts are legitimate reviews rather than fan fiction.
Oh? Cool! What are your criteria?
This review both recaps the issue and gives some sort of judgement on it.
Taking into account that the Diary title might have confused the issue, it
was labeled as "Entry: 66" in order to direct reader's attention--albeit
subtly--to the fact that this 'diary' dealt with the issue which had come out
just previous. Also, *satirical* renderings allow--legally, last time I
looked--the use of an otherwise copyrighted character, thus Tinya was used
here. Also, because the review was supposed to be funny, the author did elect
to take some liberties which--though they allude to matters ongoing in the
books as a whole--aren't directly given attention. She gave her opinions on
trends that she saw in the book to this point, and the wide-scope might have
complicated the matter somewhat, but also offered the author's satirical
opinion of ongoing events. (Some of that opinion re. Jo and Tinya's
relationship, or Imra's sudden presentation as using her telepathy pell-mell
may be what you take as totally ficitious ;-). Is this a cut-and-dried
critical theory review? I've written enough of them to know that it's not.
But to my mind it's a *very* good satire that manages to entertain at the
same time as it conveys the author's opinions on certain things in the
series. Despite the artistic liscenses taken, it *is* a review. It just
doesn't labour under the burden of objectivity. That might make it seem like
a fan fic, but there is no *plot* other than to satirically *recap* this
issue and provide a window through which one can express their judgements on
it.
Does that make any sense to you at all? (I can be obtuse. :-)
> That said, I'm dissatisfied with conclusory statements like those offered
> above which start at the determination that the posts are reviews.
Gotcha.
>I'd appreciate some analysis of why people consider the posts to be reviews.
Hope mine can be of use. In order to clarify this, however, I suspect that we
would need to determine what you consider essential to the structure of a
fiction. Here, for instance, there can be considered to be a plot *only* if
plot is defined as (an admittedly) satiric story summary which expresses the
opinions of the author on another pre-existing published work or body of
works. :-D
So how'd I do, Troy?
~ tracy (LLLUORNU!!!)
pyth...@my-dejanews.com
Tro...@primenet.com (T. Troy McNemar) wrote:
>
> That said, I'm dissatisfied with conclusory statements like those offered
> appreciate some analysis of why people consider the posts to be reviews.
Hi Troy, I heard you really did want to be convinced that this is a meritous
form of review, no? I don't know if I can help, but it's worth a try! :-)
Well, when I sat down to write this review of L* 66, I wanted to do something
other than just give a sterilized opinion of what had happened, or bare facts
or spoilers. I wanted to vent some of my frustrations with the issue and
series, and do so creatively! So I decided on satire as my form of
expression, and then went looking for a way to express *that*.
Tinya was an obvious choice for me, as she seems to represent, to me, the
trend in the LSH titles in general of a degrading in the quality of
story-telling that's been going on. You mightn't agree with this, however,
but this was my take on the comic, so that's where I was coming from. I chose
to cast the issue as 'seen' through the eyes of a Tinya whom I personally
dislike (now, but formally admired), the character that doesn't seem to think
for herself much (anymore) at all. And I ran with it, using this POV to
comment, I *hoped*, ;-) on both this alarming trend of dummying-up the
overall storyline and certain characters, and this particular issue, which
just got my goat for character inconsistency. :-)
Ultimately, you're right. I didn't have to write this, and I wasn't going to
post it! Someone else, Trace, encouraged me to do so anyway, and I take
responsibility for the results. It is true, to get theoretical for a moment
here, that in terms of reading something both the author's intent as well as
the reader's resulting take on what was said come into play equally, and I
can honestly say that in invoking Tinya Wazzo as the 'voice' for the majority
of my review (I spoke in portions of it as well) I did not intend to write
something that was Fanfiction. I haven't seriously fanficced in years, and
I'm aware of what the exercise requires in terms of structure and theme etc.
The voice itself was meant to convey a larger meaning about trends in the
LSH/L* books.
Ultimately, if it deserves censure, then by all means, act. You're within
your rights as a reader! But my *intent* is not something I'm going to
compromise on, either. Please don't single me out for censure when other
people online (yes, more than Trace), and other media forms, have long used
satirical and in-character reviews. I didn't invent in-character satire! ;-)
But, other than this nuance, did you agree with what you thought I was trying
to say? Did you disagree? Or did the manner in which I chose to express
myself blot out any further thoughts? :-o
Thanks!
H.!
T. Troy McNemar
[Analysis snipped.]
>So how'd I do, Troy?
You did a good job of analyzing the topic without starting at your
conclusion. I can live with your analysis.
Tom Galloway
>>It wasn't fanfic, it was a review-in-character.
>Elayne, what distinction are you making that excludes retellings of
>stories from a character's point of view from being considered fan
>concerns about infringement on intellectual property that caused rac*ers
>to prohibit fan fiction on rac*?
For what it's worth, there's rac precedent for this, circa the late 80s/early
90s. Namely, one "Kitty Pryde" (with forged headers; no one ever quite
figured out who it was, although I'm still uncertain about one candidate,
even after they claimed directly to me that it wasn't him) who did regular
reviews in the persona of Kitty Pryde. Even placed in the top five or so
one year in the Squiddies Favorite r.a.c.er category.
What probably helped was that "she" didn't just review comics "she" was
in, or even just X-Men comics. As well as a trademark of the final comic
reviewed in each round-up post being an imaginary one which made some
sort of general comment.
Take it too far, and it does get into either fanfic or something which
should be over in rac.creative (with one's own character, of course).
But in moderation, no problem with it.
tyg t...@netcom.com
pyth...@my-dejanews.com
gwan...@u.washington.edu (R. Tang) wrote:
> In article <363050ca...@news.primenet.com>,
> >
> >>Satirical, in-character reviews are *reviews*.
> >>Not fiction.
> >
> >Previously on rec.arts.comics.dc.lsh, gwan...@u.washington.edu (R. Tang)
> >wrote:
> >
> >>Sure doesn't fit in MY definition of fiction. It fits my
> >>definition of a review.
> >
> >The frustrating thing about this thread is that I'm not particularly
> >passionate about the subject, don't particularly want to see the fan
> >fiction banned to acf-f, and don't have any intention of acting as netcop
> >against these posts in the future.
>
> inappropriate categorizations. Why?
It's difficult for a lot of people to categorize a work that, while it's a
review, is also both subjective and satrical. In terms of literature, this is
a challenge I wouldn't be equal to without a couple of lit theory books open
on my lap, since a lot of the definitions overlap or are sometimes
subjectively held. It requires an excellent command of the features which
define one form of writing from another. Hm. In short, as you say, it's sure
not likely to be cut-and-dried. :-D
> > I would like to be convinced that the
> >posts are legitimate reviews rather than fan fiction.
>
> If a post comments on a current issue with factual statements and
> with subjective remarks, it's a review. It may be ALSO something else, but
> it's a review.
I agree that if the *plot* of a work revolves around recapping the events of
a second and pre-existing book (satirically or not) in order to convey an
author's (entertaining) opinion on a body of work, it's probably a review.
:-)
> >That said, I'm dissatisfied with conclusory statements like those offered
> >above which start at the determination that the posts are reviews. I'd
> >appreciate some analysis of why people consider the posts to be reviews.
>
> No, the point here is why ISN'T it a review if it has those
> qualities?
Ah. The point seems to be that Troy believes the burden of proof lies with you
and you disagree. Since I know authorial intent was a review, and that the
author has written reviews in the past and knows what they entail, I think I'm
in a more ideal position to ask Troy to define why it *isn't* a review. Troy?
Ball's in your court! :-D
~ tracy (LLLUORNU!!!)
cpad...@nfld.com
> >
> >Hi Troy, it's H. :-) I think we've found the ultimate solution here, no? I'll
> >just join the category Trace's reviews are in, then. ;-) Thanks!
>
> Fine by me.
A bit disappointing to me, though. :-1 But what can you do?
> Even if other participants are unable to convince me that
> your posts are reviews rather than fan fiction, I do not intend to do
> anything to prevent any future posts.
*Heck* no! I didn't think you *would*!
H.
pyth...@my-dejanews.com
> Miller) wrote:
>
> >I saw it as being a
> >review of an existing issue done in the voice of a character associated
> >with the issue. As such, I found it refreshing, much the way I find Tracy's
> >Triad reviews, which I've never seen you complain about, Troy.
>
<sigh>
~ tracy
T. Troy McNemar
>Hi Troy, I heard you really did want to be convinced that this is a meritous
>form of review, no? I don't know if I can help, but it's worth a try! :-)
Works for me.
>Ultimately, you're right. I didn't have to write this, and I wasn't going to
>post it!
Just to be clear, I never meant to imply that you shouldn't have written
it. My concern was whether it was properly posted here, and I'm now
satisfied that a credible argument can be made that it was appropriate to
post it here.
>Ultimately, if it deserves censure, then by all means, act.
You've never been in any danger of censure. I'm not even sure that I'd
know how. :)
>But, other than this nuance, did you agree with what you thought I was trying
>to say? Did you disagree? Or did the manner in which I chose to express
>myself blot out any further thoughts?
I usually don't enjoy non-canonical interpretations of fictional
characters regardless of genre or form. Sorry.
T. Troy McNemar
>> Previously on rec.arts.comics.dc.lsh, jlmille...@oz.net (Jonathan L.
>> Miller) wrote:
>> I never read Tracy's Triad reviews. :)
>
><sigh>
Sorry. Nothing personal. :)
T. Troy McNemar
Miller) wrote:
>The prime focus of your post about Clinton and
>that ABBA woman was *not* the review of the L* issue. People would get on
>your back about it being off topic and they'd be right to do so. Heidi's
>prime focus *was* a review of that issue. You're just trying to set up a
>straw man here, albeit (IMHO) unintentionally.
No, actually the point of the post about Clinton and that hot chick from
ABBA (no, the other one) was that the appropriateness of a post can be a
matter of degree. Just because a post meets the technical definition of a
review doesn't necessarily mean that it's appropriate.
T. Troy McNemar
>Troy McNemar) wrote:
>> I'm not the proponent of the review exception to the fan fiction
>> prohibition, why would I offer definitions of what is and isn't a review?
>>
>Uh, because you declared something that was out-and-out stated to be a
>review of L* 66 to be fan fiction. *You* were the person disputing its
>status. Tell us why a review, even one written from the (satirical, as
>Tracy has pointed out) viewpoint of one of the characters, should be
>declared "fanfic" and off-limits to RACDL?
I agree that it would be appropriate to ask me why I thought the post was
fan fiction. However, that was not the question that was presented and
it's something that, to my mind, I'd previously addressed. If asked for
further elaboration about why I considered the post to be fan fiction, I'd
have provided it.
And I'm not willing to assume that a post is a review merely because the
poster labels it as such. Consequently, the question to me is not why a
review should be considered fan fiction, but whether a post should be
considered fan fiction. In determining that the post was a review, you've
assumed something that I was unwilling to assume.
pyth...@my-dejanews.com
>
> >So how'd I do, Troy?
>
> You did a good job of analyzing the topic without starting at your
> conclusion. I can live with your analysis.
Ah! That's very cool! Thanks Troy! It's sort of nice to see an arguement that
uses logical progressions something like you'd see in rhetoric. Call me a
sucker for (Aristotlean) punishment if you like, but I like that sort of
thing. It may be perverse, but hey.... :-)
~ tracy (LLLUORNU!!!)
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
: Previously on rec.arts.comics.dc.lsh, fire...@panix.com (Elayne
: Wechsler-Chaput) wrote:
: >: Elayne, what distinction are you making that excludes retellings of
: >: stories from a character's point of view from being considered fan
: >: fiction?
: >
: >Fanfic usually involves making up NEW stories featuring familiar
: >characters, Troy-- not posters doing reviews of actual published issues
: >pretending to be a character.
: Elayne, that answer does not respond to my question in any meaningful
: manner.
Troy, you asked for the distinction between fanfic and what Heidi wrote.
I supplied you with that distinction.
: Is it your point that because the fan fiction in question
: deviates from the normal pattern of fan fiction that it shouldn't be
: considered fan fiction at all?
My point is that it's not fan fiction, it's a review-in-character. The
reviewer is fictional, the book being reviewed is real. It's no different
than me reviewing JLA #5 using the persona of a soapbox feminist.
- Elayne
--
Girls, girls. You're both pretty! Now take it to email, please.
- Chris Pierson <cpie...@tiac.net>
commenting on a Usenet flamewar
("I stole it from Homicide anyway")
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
: wrote:
: > If a post comments on a current issue with factual statements and
: >with subjective remarks, it's a review. It may be ALSO something else, but
: >it's a review.
: How far would you allow that definition to be stretched, though?
It doesn't have to be stretched at all, Troy. It's a review. It's done
in character. No different than what a number of us have done in our
reviews from time to time, to make them more interesting. Well, okay, a
little different in that this one was better written. :)