Pre-Crisis Puzzler for the Oldtimers
George Grattan
What ever happened (in the pre-Crisis, pre-Zero Hour sense, mind you) to the
Legion flight rings that were floating around (heh, heh) back in the 20th
Century?
By my count, we've got five to account for:
Kal-El's, Kara's, Pete Ross', Lana Lang's, and Jimmy Olsen's.
My speculations:
Kara's was presumably "buried" with her or it was given to her parents?
Pete's was passed on to his son, Jon?
We know Jimmy still had his as of that DCCP/Mongul/LSH story-- had Lana kept
hers?
There....that ought to keep things from being *totally* quiet around here
for a bit... :-)
Shalom, Peace, Salaam,
George Grattan
gra...@rcn.com
"These are our few live seasons. Let us live them as purely as we can, in
the present."--Annie Dillard, _Pilgrim at Tinker Creek_.
Tim
Tim
aka: bl...@aol.com
"George Grattan" <gra...@rcn.com> wrote in message
news:B92D6E3E.1AF78%gra...@rcn.com...
Dan
>From: George Grattan gra...@rcn.com
>Date: 6/12/02 9:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <B92D6E3E.1AF78%gra...@rcn.com>
>
>Here it is, folks, don't ask me why it popped into my head today...
>
>What ever happened (in the pre-Crisis, pre-Zero Hour sense, mind you) to the
>Legion flight rings that were floating around (heh, heh) back in the 20th
>Century?
>
>By my count, we've got five to account for:
>
>Kal-El's, Kara's, Pete Ross', Lana Lang's, and Jimmy Olsen's.
>
>My speculations:
>
>Kara's was presumably "buried" with her or it was given to her parents?
I'd say buried. Or possibly returned to the Legion. Or stuck in Kal-El's
museum.
>Pete's was passed on to his son, Jon?
He had a son?
>We know Jimmy still had his as of that DCCP/Mongul/LSH story-- had Lana kept
>hers?
I'd think so.
>There....that ought to keep things from being *totally* quiet around here
>for a bit... :-)
Kal-El's ring...well, we don't know that he ever died, do we?
Dan
aa #1617
apatriot #14
2nd Class Citizen
Dan
>From: "Tim" nospa...@aol.com_nospam
>Date: 6/12/02 10:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <p2TN8.50254$pw3.733@sccrnsc03>
>
>Booster Gold was running around with one also.
Yes, and I wonder what the explanation for his flight capabilities post-ZH.
Pre-ZH, he still had access to the pre-ZH Legion. I suppose it's possible that
Superboy's flight ring (or Inferno's, if she had one) ended up with Booster
Gold.
Tom Galloway
George Grattan <gra...@rcn.com> wrote:
>What ever happened (in the pre-Crisis, pre-Zero Hour sense, mind you) to the
>Legion flight rings that were floating around (heh, heh) back in the 20th
>Century?
Did Pete ever get one? Ultra Boy gave him a 30th century coin (which was
a really odd thing to give someone as a passkey to get into a club based
in the 30th century. Seems that anyone off the street could walk into
Legion HQ and say "I've got a current coin, so I get to come in!"), and
that predates the flight ring introduction anyway.
And I don't recall Pete using a flight ring. I'm pretty sure he didn't
in the first published Mordru story, but a bit less sure about the Eight
Impossible Missions story. And those were pretty much his only two Adventure
appearances, certainly as significant ones.
Hmm. Come to think of it, wonder why they didn't give a flight ring to Comet,
who could use it in his Bronco Bill Starr non-powered human id, or a flight
collar to Streaky, for use when the X-Kryptonite wore off? Proty II could've
used one too. Darn early Legion speciesism...:-)
tyg t...@panix.com
Dale Hicks
dannyb...@aol.comnospam says...
> >From: George Grattan gra...@rcn.com
> >Pete's was passed on to his son, Jon?
>
> He had a son?
Someone has a hole in his collection. :)
DC Comics Presents #13 has Superman leaving the poor kid on an alien
world because he'll eventually save them by becoming their leader (1979,
pre-TERMINATOR).
DCCP #25 has Superman teaming with the Phantom Stranger and going to get
Jon back to his dad (after he realizes that if he's fated to lead the
aliens, then he'll eventually get there).
--
Cranial Crusader dgh...@bellsouth.net
Tom Galloway
Dale Hicks <dgh...@bellSPAMsouth.net.invalid> wrote:
>In article <20020612222400...@mb-mc.aol.com>,
>dannyb...@aol.comnospam says...
>> He had a son?
>Someone has a hole in his collection. :)
>DC Comics Presents #13 has Superman leaving the poor kid on an alien
>world because he'll eventually save them by becoming their leader (1979,
Which, btw, co-stars the Legion.
This wasn't where Jon was introduced though. I believe that was Action #547.
Spoilers for it below;
Jon is dying of some comics disease where he can be cured by giving him
the will to live. Superman (who still doesn't know that Pete knows his
other ID), decides that he has to tell Jon that he's really Clark Kent to
spark Jon's interest in life. Problem is, Jon refuses to believe him. In
the end, Jon convinces himself by demanding that Superman take him to
Clark's apartment, where he checks out Clark's toiletries. Or rather,
confirms that Clark doesn't have a razor, toothbrush, etc., things that
Superman wouldn't need, but an ordinary person would (apparently Clark
doesn't do much entertaining in his apartment, as it'd seem no one's
ever asked to use the bathroom when there).
tyg t...@panix.com
Dan
>Date: 6/12/02 11:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <MPG.1771c973f...@news1.lig.bellsouth.net>
>
>In article <20020612222400...@mb-mc.aol.com>,
>dannyb...@aol.comnospam says...
>> >From: George Grattan gra...@rcn.com
>>
>> >Pete's was passed on to his son, Jon?
>>
>> He had a son?
>
>Someone has a hole in his collection. :)
To say that the hole is humongous might be an understatement.
>DC Comics Presents #13 has Superman leaving the poor kid on an alien
>world because he'll eventually save them by becoming their leader (1979,
>pre-TERMINATOR).
Oh, er, how could I have missed it...?
>DCCP #25 has Superman teaming with the Phantom Stranger and going to get
>Jon back to his dad (after he realizes that if he's fated to lead the
>aliens, then he'll eventually get there).
Good call.
Dan
>Date: 6/12/02 11:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <ae91rl$k3q$1...@panix3.panix.com>
>Hmm. Come to think of it, wonder why they didn't give a flight ring to Comet,
>who could use it in his Bronco Bill Starr non-powered human id, or a flight
>collar to Streaky, for use when the X-Kryptonite wore off? Proty II could've
>used one too. Darn early Legion speciesism...:-)
Bronco Bill Starr? Comet...connected to Supergirl. Supergirl...Earth-2
version is Power Girl...Karen Starr! OMG! Comet is Power Girl!
Dale Hicks
dannyb...@aol.comnospam says...
> >From: Dale Hicks dgh...@bellSPAMsouth.net.invalid
> To say that the hole is humongous might be an understatement.
>
> >DC Comics Presents #13 has Superman leaving the poor kid on an alien
> >world because he'll eventually save them by becoming their leader (1979,
> >pre-TERMINATOR).
>
> Oh, er, how could I have missed it...?
Sorry, I just assumed everyone on the LSH newsgroup was an AR collector.
Old habits, y'know?
--
Cranial Crusader dgh...@bellsouth.net
Brian Doyle
"Tom Galloway" <t...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:ae91rl$k3q$1...@panix3.panix.com...
> In article <B92D6E3E.1AF78%gra...@rcn.com>,
> George Grattan <gra...@rcn.com> wrote:
> >What ever happened (in the pre-Crisis, pre-Zero Hour sense, mind you) to
the
> >Legion flight rings that were floating around (heh, heh) back in the 20th
> >Century?
> >Kal-El's, Kara's, Pete Ross', Lana Lang's, and Jimmy Olsen's.
>
> Did Pete ever get one? Ultra Boy gave him a 30th century coin (which was
> a really odd thing to give someone as a passkey to get into a club based
> in the 30th century. Seems that anyone off the street could walk into
> Legion HQ and say "I've got a current coin, so I get to come in!"), and
> that predates the flight ring introduction anyway.
Nah, it was just a coin operated door, which they got from an ancient
historical site. It was only later that Cosmic Boy, historian that he was,
identified the "historical site" as the remains fo the public toilets at
Grand Central Station. :)
Brian Doyle
> In article <MPG.1771c973f...@news1.lig.bellsouth.net>,
> Dale Hicks <dgh...@bellSPAMsouth.net.invalid> wrote:
> >In article <20020612222400...@mb-mc.aol.com>,
> >dannyb...@aol.comnospam says...
> >> >Pete's was passed on to his son, Jon?
> >> He had a son?
> >Someone has a hole in his collection. :)
> >DC Comics Presents #13 has Superman leaving the poor kid on an alien
> >world because he'll eventually save them by becoming their leader (1979,
>
> Which, btw, co-stars the Legion.
>
> This wasn't where Jon was introduced though. I believe that was Action
#547.
> Spoilers for it below;
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>
>
> confirms that Clark doesn't have a razor, toothbrush, etc., things that
> Superman wouldn't need, but an ordinary person would (apparently Clark
> doesn't do much entertaining in his apartment, as it'd seem no one's
> ever asked to use the bathroom when there).
There's a power I never saw Superman use; Super-halitosis!! Or maybe when
they talk about "super-breath" they're really referring to it's toxic
potential.
Jon Clark
Where were you BEFORE some idiot thought Power Girl would work as Arion's
granddaughter. Tying PG to Comet the Superhorse would have kept more things in
continuity and made more sense. Note this isn't saying Comet is the best
origin but it beats having her as Aquaman's great(X50) grand-aunt..
troy
"Tom Galloway" <t...@panix.com> wrote in message news:ae981a$706> This wasn't
where Jon was introduced though. I believe that was Action #547.
> Spoilers for it below;
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
> Jon is dying of some comics disease
the dreaded four-color poisoning
George Grattan
> Booster Gold was running around with one also.
Right- which, post-Crisis, he stole from a museum in the 25th (?) Century,
IIRC. Originally, that was to have been Superman's ring (and the Museum a
Superman Museum), but Jurgens changed those plans-- obviously--after Byrne's
retconning away of Superboy.
I suppose Booster's ring could now be said to be the current Superboy's? I
can't think of any other 20th Century folks who (post-Crisis) have them.
George Grattan
>
>> Pete's was passed on to his son, Jon?
>
> He had a son?
Yup- Jonothan Ross, kidnapped by an alien race to be raised as a warlord on
a distant planet, destined to return to save Earth from an alien armada and
go down in history as one of the 20th Century's greatest leaders. The Legion
was so adamant about the prophecy that they convinced Superman not to rescue
Jon, Pete then when crazy and tried to kill Superman, and, with the
spiritual guidance of the Phantom Stranger, Superman decided to save Jon
after all (the prophecy would have to fulfill itself some other way, he
reasoned) and Pete was restored to sanity. All this unfolded over several
issues of DCCP.
>
>> We know Jimmy still had his as of that DCCP/Mongul/LSH story-- had Lana kept
>> hers?
>
> I'd think so.
Interesting, then, that she never made any use of it-- I'd have almost
expected that more from her than from Jimmy. But then, Lana had *another*
ring she never seemed to use as an adult, either... :-)
>
>> There....that ought to keep things from being *totally* quiet around here
>> for a bit... :-)
>
> Kal-El's ring...well, we don't know that he ever died, do we?
Good point- I suppose it could be hanging on a baby mobile in his house with
Lois after the events of "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?"
George Grattan
> In article <B92D6E3E.1AF78%gra...@rcn.com>,
> George Grattan <gra...@rcn.com> wrote:
>> What ever happened (in the pre-Crisis, pre-Zero Hour sense, mind you) to the
>> Legion flight rings that were floating around (heh, heh) back in the 20th
>> Century?
>> Kal-El's, Kara's, Pete Ross', Lana Lang's, and Jimmy Olsen's.
>
> Did Pete ever get one?
No clue, really- I remembered the coin as soon as you mentioned it, though,
so perhaps that's all he was ever given.
There'd be a certain consistency there, actually, as Jimmy and Lana were
both given rings with the assumption that they each could, in a pinch,
actually participate on a mission with their Elastic Lad and Insect Queen
abilities-- Pete's "membership" was a true honoraria, in recognition of
keeping Clark's secret.
Which, it just occurred to me, means Clark never knew Pete was a member
until they were adults-- if ever. :-)
Man, the Masons got nothin on the Legion, sometimes...
George Grattan
>
>> DCCP #25 has Superman teaming with the Phantom Stranger and going to get
>> Jon back to his dad (after he realizes that if he's fated to lead the
>> aliens, then he'll eventually get there).
>
> Good call.
You know-- it was, actually, and I was very glad to read it resolved that
way at the time. Perhaps I was an over-sensitive lad, but I was genuinely
bothered by Jon's abduction and abandonment to some impersonal fate. It
seemed downright cruel to me, and, from his perspective in the story,
horrifying. I recall reading some LOCs to this effect in subsequent DCCP's,
too, so it seems I wasn't the only one who felt DC had dropped the ball on
this. Given the relatively large gap between the events of 13, 14 (which is
Pete's attempt at revenge and descent into madness) and 25, I wonder if a
course correction wasn't ordered, somewhere.
Hal Shipman
wrote:
>on 6/12/02 10:01 PM, Tim at nospa...@aol.com_nospam wrote:
>
>> Booster Gold was running around with one also.
>
>Right- which, post-Crisis, he stole from a museum in the 25th (?) Century,
>IIRC. Originally, that was to have been Superman's ring (and the Museum a
>Superman Museum), but Jurgens changed those plans-- obviously--after Byrne's
>retconning away of Superboy.
Wasn't it supposed to be (Post-Crisis) the Space Museum? From which
Lori later stole Robbie Reed's H-Dial?
They >really< need to beef up the security in that place.
Hal.
I don't wear no Stetson
But I'm willing to bet, son
That I'm as big a Texan as you are
- Robert Earl Keen, "Amarillo Highway"
.
Remove the underscore in the address to reply by email.
George Grattan
> On Thu, 13 Jun 2002 09:55:15 -0400, George Grattan <gra...@rcn.com>
> wrote:
>
>> on 6/12/02 10:01 PM, Tim at nospa...@aol.com_nospam wrote:
>>
>>> Booster Gold was running around with one also.
>>
>> Right- which, post-Crisis, he stole from a museum in the 25th (?) Century,
>> IIRC. Originally, that was to have been Superman's ring (and the Museum a
>> Superman Museum), but Jurgens changed those plans-- obviously--after Byrne's
>> retconning away of Superboy.
>
> Wasn't it supposed to be (Post-Crisis) the Space Museum? From which
> Lori later stole Robbie Reed's H-Dial?
I believe so, yes.
>
> They >really< need to beef up the security in that place.
Well, they have guards, but those damn Zeta-beam charges keep wearing off at
the most inconvenient times..
Interesting how this thread's drifted all over the place....have we reached
any consensus on the fate of the 20th C Legion rings? Or even on how many
there were? For that matter: if Jimmy Olsen had kept his all those years-
why didn't he ever use it to fly? Seems to me that would have gotten the
"Action Ace" out of a few jams. Even further: why wouldn't Superman just
have given his to Lois on the same principle? It sure would have saved him a
lot of time catching her in mid-fall. :-)
Hmmm....I'm imagining what could have been a great 70s Superman story:
enterprising young thieves stumble upon interviews in which Jimmy Olsen and
Lana Lang discuss their honorary Legionnaire status and the rings. Said
thieves manage to steal the rings, without Jimmy or Lana knowing, and go on
a flying crime spree in Metropolis while Superman's off in space. Superman
returns home and solves it, in part, by tracking them down with his own
ring. (Okay--so we're talking an 8 pager here, not a 100 Page Giant).
Written by Cary Bates or--even better, Elliot S! Maggin--it's called "Secret
of the Stolen Signets!" :-)
>
> Hal.
>
> I don't wear no Stetson
> But I'm willing to bet, son
> That I'm as big a Texan as you are
> - Robert Earl Keen, "Amarillo Highway"
> .
> Remove the underscore in the address to reply by email.
Shalom, Peace, Salaam,
Tom Galloway
George Grattan <gra...@rcn.com> wrote:
>I suppose Booster's ring could now be said to be the current Superboy's? I
>can't think of any other 20th Century folks who (post-Crisis) have them.
Didn't the Legion repossess that one when they were trapped in the 20th
century and found out Trixie was using it?
tyg t...@panix.com
Tom Galloway
George Grattan <gra...@rcn.com> wrote:
>Which, it just occurred to me, means Clark never knew Pete was a member
>until they were adults-- if ever. :-)
Yes and no. He had to know at least twice, but was hypnotized into forgetting
it once, and the other time it fell under Saturn Girl's implanted command
that he forget anything he learned about his own history when he returned
to the 20th century.
The first time, chronologically, was an example of the second out; both
Pete and Superboy (and Jimmy for that matter) were in the 8 Impossible
Missions story set in the 30th century. The next time was when he and Lana
teamed up with the Legion when they were trapped in 20th century Smallville
due to fleeing Mordru.
tyg t...@panix.com
George Grattan
Roxy, I think. And I think all was eventually forgiven and the ring was
returned to him before they departed.
Clay Hornik
>in the first published Mordru story, but a bit less sure about the Eight
>Impossible Missions story. And those were pretty much his only two Adventure
>appearances, certainly as significant ones.
He had one as "Superboy" in "The Devils Jury"- the Mordru story from that big
reprint (originally Adv 369-370)(Man, I miss those Limited Collector's
Editions... for only a dollar!!)
Clay
Dan
>Date: 6/13/02 12:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <7phhgu419btc0qplu...@4ax.com>
>
>On Thu, 13 Jun 2002 09:55:15 -0400, George Grattan <gra...@rcn.com>
>wrote:
>
>>on 6/12/02 10:01 PM, Tim at nospa...@aol.com_nospam wrote:
>>
>>> Booster Gold was running around with one also.
>>
>>Right- which, post-Crisis, he stole from a museum in the 25th (?) Century,
>>IIRC. Originally, that was to have been Superman's ring (and the Museum a
>>Superman Museum), but Jurgens changed those plans-- obviously--after Byrne's
>>retconning away of Superboy.
>
>Wasn't it supposed to be (Post-Crisis) the Space Museum? From which
>Lori later stole Robbie Reed's H-Dial?
>
>They >really< need to beef up the security in that place.
Post-Crisis isn't the problem. It's post-ZH where we run into some serious
issues. Post-Crisis we still had the Pocket Universe. OK, it's still there
but no longer connected to the 30th/31st century. When it was connected, a
ring from that universe could conceivably end up in the DCU. OTOH, since
Supergirl is here, maybe a ring came over with her?
Dan
>Date: 6/13/02 3:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <aeaq6p$4c4$1...@panix2.panix.com>
I thought they gave it back when they made up. Besides, Inferno is still
roaming around the 21st century.
Hal Shipman
>Yes and no. He had to know at least twice, but was hypnotized into forgetting
>it once, and the other time it fell under Saturn Girl's implanted command
>that he forget anything he learned about his own history when he returned
>to the 20th century.
Saturn Girl? Are you sure? I could have >sworn< it was a
super-post-hypnotic command from SUPERgirl.
George Grattan
But the Pocket Universe wasn't an exact replacement for the pre-Crisis DCU.
That Supergirl (Matrix) had never been a member of the Legion, wasn't from
Krypton, etc.--she'd never have had a ring, would never even have met the
Legion.
Just to clarify the original question, then, let's stick to pre-Crisis 12,
pre-Pocket Universe, pre-Man of Steel timelines/stories-- with the possible
exception of "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow" since that's
essentially the conclusion of that pre-Crisis 12 timeline for the relevant
characters (Superman, Lana, the deceased Kara, Jimmy, the Legion with a
younger Kara, Pete).
George Grattan
> On 13 Jun 2002 15:05:40 -0400, t...@panix.com (Tom Galloway) wrote:
>
>> Yes and no. He had to know at least twice, but was hypnotized into forgetting
>> it once, and the other time it fell under Saturn Girl's implanted command
>> that he forget anything he learned about his own history when he returned
>> to the 20th century.
>
> Saturn Girl? Are you sure? I could have >sworn< it was a
> super-post-hypnotic command from SUPERgirl.
Nope- they both were under the post-hypnotic command from Saturn Girl, aided
by a microscopic piece of Kryptonnite lodged in their brains.
The Legion had one *serious* non-disclosure clause. :-)
Mike
> I thought they gave it back when they made up. Besides, Inferno is still
> roaming around the 21st century.
But her ring isn't...she threw it to Ultra Boy before she zoomed off to her
mini-series.
Kevin Yong
"George Grattan" <gra...@rcn.com> wrote in message
news:B92ECDAA.1B0EF%gra...@rcn.com...
> on 6/13/02 10:28 PM, Hal Shipman at h_sh...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
> > On 13 Jun 2002 15:05:40 -0400, t...@panix.com (Tom Galloway) wrote:
> >
> >> Yes and no. He had to know at least twice, but was hypnotized into
forgetting
> >> it once, and the other time it fell under Saturn Girl's implanted
command
> >> that he forget anything he learned about his own history when he
returned
> >> to the 20th century.
> >
> > Saturn Girl? Are you sure? I could have >sworn< it was a
> > super-post-hypnotic command from SUPERgirl.
>
> Nope- they both were under the post-hypnotic command from Saturn Girl,
aided
> by a microscopic piece of Kryptonnite lodged in their brains.
But I thought that Element Lad transformed that Kryptonite into Helium.
Unless that was a *different* piece of Kryptonite the Legion had implanted
in their heads. Yikes! How much brain surgery was required for membership
in this club, anyway?
-- Kevin Yong,
who can't keep track of the various telepathy/hypnosis/lobotomies
that was used on Superboy during his days in the Legion.
Brian Doyle
"Kevin Yong" <writ...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:RKeO8.529$TP4....@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> But I thought that Element Lad transformed that Kryptonite into Helium.
"Good news Kal-El! Radiation poisoning is no longer a threat, but a squeaky
voiced aneurism is now a possibility!"
Terence Chua
"Kevin Yong" <writ...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Nope- they both were under the post-hypnotic command from Saturn Girl,
>aided
>> by a microscopic piece of Kryptonnite lodged in their brains.
>
>But I thought that Element Lad transformed that Kryptonite into Helium.
>Unless that was a *different* piece of Kryptonite the Legion had implanted
>in their heads. Yikes! How much brain surgery was required for membership
>in this club, anyway?
No, it was always a post-hypnotic command from Saturn Girl. The
kryptonite bit George is remembering only occured during the time when
Superboy and Supergirl resigned from the Legion due to the kryptonite
cloud around the Earth and that was a one time thing to make their
memory loss permanent as long as the kryptonite particles were in their
brains. Element Lad removed that once the cloud was rendered harmless
thanks to Color Kid and the two returned to active duty.
--
Terence Chua kh...@tim.org
WWW: http://www.khaosworks.org
KhaOS@TinyTIM: telnet://yay.tim.org:5440
"The meek shall inherit the earth. The rest of us will go to the stars."
Lilith
wrote:
>on 6/13/02 1:55 AM, Dan at dannyb...@aol.comnospam wrote:
>>> DCCP #25 has Superman teaming with the Phantom Stranger and going to get
>>> Jon back to his dad (after he realizes that if he's fated to lead the
>>> aliens, then he'll eventually get there).
>> Good call.
>You know-- it was, actually, and I was very glad to read it resolved that
>way at the time. Perhaps I was an over-sensitive lad, but I was genuinely
>bothered by Jon's abduction and abandonment to some impersonal fate. It
>seemed downright cruel to me, and, from his perspective in the story,
>horrifying. I recall reading some LOCs to this effect in subsequent DCCP's,
>too, so it seems I wasn't the only one who felt DC had dropped the ball on
>this. Given the relatively large gap between the events of 13, 14 (which is
>Pete's attempt at revenge and descent into madness) and 25, I wonder if a
>course correction wasn't ordered, somewhere.
Yet Marvel does it quite often, involving children in plots. There's
Cable and Franklin Richards, both of whom were spirited away from
their parents only to return at a mature age. Magik, the same thing,
though she wasn't quite spirited away. Usually it's resolved
relatively quickly. Sounds like DC ducked out on following up by
shortcircuiting Jon's stay on the planet. They couldn't wait for him
to grow up to resolve it.
>Shalom, Peace, Salaam,
>George Grattan
Lil
Lilith
wrote:
>No, it was always a post-hypnotic command from Saturn Girl. The
>kryptonite bit George is remembering only occured during the time when
>Superboy and Supergirl resigned from the Legion due to the kryptonite
>cloud around the Earth and that was a one time thing to make their
>memory loss permanent as long as the kryptonite particles were in their
>brains. Element Lad removed that once the cloud was rendered harmless
>thanks to Color Kid and the two returned to active duty.
Geeze, Color Kid and not Element Lad????? Imagine if he turned it to
red or white.
Lil
Dan
>Date: 6/13/02 10:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <B92ECD31.1B0EE%gra...@rcn.com>
I know. I was thinking of Superboy's ring. He must have had one for
communication purposes even if he didn't need it for flight. Of course, since
Superboy himself has made the trip it could have been left behind by him.
>Just to clarify the original question, then, let's stick to pre-Crisis 12,
>pre-Pocket Universe, pre-Man of Steel timelines/stories-- with the possible
>exception of "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow" since that's
>essentially the conclusion of that pre-Crisis 12 timeline for the relevant
>characters (Superman, Lana, the deceased Kara, Jimmy, the Legion with a
>younger Kara, Pete).
If you stick to that, it fails to answer how Post-ZH Booster Gold has the
flight ring.
Dan
>Message-id: <r0ligu0p8fulr85ju...@4ax.com>
>
>On 13 Jun 2002 15:05:40 -0400, t...@panix.com (Tom Galloway) wrote:
>
>>Yes and no. He had to know at least twice, but was hypnotized into
>forgetting
>>it once, and the other time it fell under Saturn Girl's implanted command
>>that he forget anything he learned about his own history when he returned
>>to the 20th century.
>
>Saturn Girl? Are you sure? I could have >sworn< it was a
>super-post-hypnotic command from SUPERgirl.
I don't think so. I even remember one issue from near the tail end of Conway's
run, right after Grimbor was defeated, where Saturn Girl is talking about it.
Tom Galloway
Lilith <lilithp@_remove_me_pobox.com> wrote:
>>brains. Element Lad removed that once the cloud was rendered harmless
>>thanks to Color Kid and the two returned to active duty.
>Geeze, Color Kid and not Element Lad????? Imagine if he turned it to
>red or white.
Element Lad tried to transmute the cloud, but failed due to some sort of
McGuffin that made it a very good thing for him not to do so. Color Kid
changed the Green K to Blue K, so it no longer had an effect on non-Bizarros.
tyg t...@panix.com
Terence Chua
t...@panix.com (Tom Galloway) wrote:
IIRC, the McGuffin was some kind of chain reaction that would be deadly
to life on Earth so he had to stop. My copies of that issue are buried
somewhere in the black hole that is my library so someone will have to
verify it.
Lilith
And it co-ordinated so well with a blue sky. Heh, the thought of
changing the color actually having the desired effect seems absurd to
me, even for comic book pseudo-science. Moreso because blue
kryptonite is created with the imperfect duplicator ray and it's
chemical composition, if indeed it's really a chemical as we know
them, is what makes it what it is, not the color.
So, will Color Kid hire out to change the color in my decor?
>tyg t...@panix.com
Lil
Michael S. Schiffer
news:3d0e4fea....@dscnews.dcccd.edu:
>...
> And it co-ordinated so well with a blue sky. Heh, the thought
> of changing the color actually having the desired effect seems
> absurd to me, even for comic book pseudo-science. Moreso
> because blue kryptonite is created with the imperfect duplicator
> ray and it's chemical composition,
Whereas having the sort of radiation something puts out dependent on
its *chemical* composition is *good* comic book pseudo-science? :-)
if indeed it's really a
> chemical as we know them, is what makes it what it is, not the
> color.
Color is a much more fundamental property of matter in the Silver Age
DCU. Consider what made something immune to a Green Lantern's power
ring, for example.
Mike
--
Michael S. Schiffer, LHN, FCS
msch...@condor.depaul.edu
Lilith
<msch...@condor.depaul.edu> wrote:
>lilithp@_remove_me_pobox.com (Lilith) wrote in
>news:3d0e4fea....@dscnews.dcccd.edu:
>>...
>> And it co-ordinated so well with a blue sky. Heh, the thought
>> of changing the color actually having the desired effect seems
>> absurd to me, even for comic book pseudo-science. Moreso
>> because blue kryptonite is created with the imperfect duplicator
>> ray and it's chemical composition,
>Whereas having the sort of radiation something puts out dependent on
>its *chemical* composition is *good* comic book pseudo-science? :-)
I never have subscribed to the notion of particular waves of radiation
having different effects. To me, radiation is radiation and it's
dangerous in large quantities. Remember how it caused Lex Luthor to
lose a hand because of the kryptonite ring he wore? So what is
instantly painful to Superman is dangerous to normal humans over time.
> if indeed it's really a
>> chemical as we know them, is what makes it what it is, not the
>> color.
>Color is a much more fundamental property of matter in the Silver Age
>DCU. Consider what made something immune to a Green Lantern's power
>ring, for example.
That one I could swallow a bit better. Due to the "yellow impurity"
in the ring, the pseudo-solid objects it created could have been
negated by contact with something emitting a yellow frequency.
>Mike
Lil
JWMeritt
>I never have subscribed to the notion of particular waves of radiation
>having different effects. To me, radiation is radiation and it's
>dangerous in large quantities
Consider the different effects of the two colors of electromagnetic radiation
Gamma and infrared. One warms you, the other kills.
To me, they are different.
James W. Meritt, CISSP, CISA
Michael Robert Dunn
: And it co-ordinated so well with a blue sky. Heh, the thought of
: changing the color actually having the desired effect seems absurd to
: me, even for comic book pseudo-science. Moreso because blue
: kryptonite is created with the imperfect duplicator ray and it's
: them, is what makes it what it is, not the color.
It depends I would think on how you think of color. He's not paint boy,
he doesn't doesn't put a layer paint over something, he changes it's
color.
So either he's permanetly changing the way light works around the object
or he's changing the object.
Gold is gold because of it's atomic structure, and the way light bounces
off of it, to make it red you're to have to change either the gold or the
nature of light.
This actually seems to be a very powerful power, in some it's changeing
the nature of the universe, even f it was ment origanly to be a joke power
and doesn't seem to have much practical applaction.
I would think brainy would want to spend lots of time studying how it
works.
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
/ Be Excellent to Each Other ,__o Due to circumstances beyond your \
* And _-\_<, control you are master of your fate *
\ Party On Dudes (*)/'(*) and captain of your soul. /
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
J'ai mes opinions. L'universite a ses opinions. (c)2002 Michael Dunn
http://www.uwm.edu/~mrdunn/ (check it out)
Michael Robert Dunn
: having different effects. To me, radiation is radiation and it's
: lose a hand because of the kryptonite ring he wore? So what is
: instantly painful to Superman is dangerous to normal humans over time.
forgive me if I mangle the vocabulary) of the radition is high enough it
just goes straight through you not bother to stop and do you damage in any
way. It just always assumed kryptonite was had a very high wave length,
and went right through normal people, but since superman is much denser
then the rest of us it affected him.
In the newer version it just has a lower wavelength and so it will affect
humans eventually, but he still blocks more of it, so it still affects him
more.
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
/ Be Excellent to Each Other ,__o Due to circumstances beyond your \
* And _-\_<, control you are master of your fate *
\ Party On Dudes (*)/'(*) and captain of your soul. /
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
J'ai mes opinions. L'universite a ses opinions. (c) 2002 Michael Dunn
KRUSEFAM6
George Grattan
> In article <RKeO8.529$TP4....@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
> "Kevin Yong" <writ...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> Nope- they both were under the post-hypnotic command from Saturn Girl,
>> aided
>>> by a microscopic piece of Kryptonnite lodged in their brains.
>>
>> But I thought that Element Lad transformed that Kryptonite into Helium.
>> Unless that was a *different* piece of Kryptonite the Legion had implanted
>> in their heads. Yikes! How much brain surgery was required for membership
>> in this club, anyway?
>
> No, it was always a post-hypnotic command from Saturn Girl. The
> kryptonite bit George is remembering only occured during the time when
> Superboy and Supergirl resigned from the Legion due to the kryptonite
> cloud around the Earth and that was a one time thing to make their
> memory loss permanent as long as the kryptonite particles were in their
> brains. Element Lad removed that once the cloud was rendered harmless
> thanks to Color Kid and the two returned to active duty.
A-ha. Not sure I follow the logic, though: if the post-hypnotic command
placed by Imra had been good enough when they were expected to continue as
active members, why was the micro-K added when they resigned (albeit
temporarily)?
On another note: I should have remembered this correctly, since it's Exhibit
B in the "Color Kid was Always Underused" argument. (Exhibit A being,
"Really, What's Tasmia Got that He Doesn't"?)
George Grattan
The main difference from the Cable, Franklin, and Illyana examples you cite,
though, is that the DCCP story with Jon Ross would have had us (and
Superman, and the other characters) believe that it was a *good* thing,
ultimately, that Jon had been abducted, since it was part of an unfolding
destiny that had him saving Earth in the future. Those were the terms in
which we were supposed to accept the lad's fate, and Pete's refusal to do so
(what father/parent could?) were then codified as madness, especially in the
first follow up tale (DCCP 14).
By DCCP 25, though, clearly the thinking had changed: the Phantom Stranger
has to go to Hell to battle Talia for Jon's soul/sanity (or was it
Superman's? seems to me that would have worked better, since he's the one
who'd violated a code of ethics) and Superman fights the aliens to bring Jon
home.
With the Marvel examples, there never seemed to have been any attempt to
shade those abductions/abandonments as "good" or "necessary" things-- they
were tragedies, even if, in some cases (Cable) some good eventually came out
of them.
Shalom, Peace, Salaam,
George Grattan
George Grattan
But the Pocket Universe Superboy only came into the post-Crisis Universe
very briefly, IIRC, and, in any event, was buried in the 30th Century,
presumably with his ring. Or- it may have been given to Mon-El, since they
couldn't have returned it to anyone in the PU 20th Century at that point.
>
>> Just to clarify the original question, then, let's stick to pre-Crisis 12,
>> pre-Pocket Universe, pre-Man of Steel timelines/stories-- with the possible
>> exception of "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow" since that's
>> essentially the conclusion of that pre-Crisis 12 timeline for the relevant
>> characters (Superman, Lana, the deceased Kara, Jimmy, the Legion with a
>> younger Kara, Pete).
>
> If you stick to that, it fails to answer how Post-ZH Booster Gold has the
> flight ring.
Didn't Jurgens solve this in the _BG_ series? If he didn't, then, as others
have pointed out, the current (clone/Kon-el) Superboy has a Legion ring that
will presumably be the one that ends up in the 25th Century Space Museum for
Booster to steal.
Michael S. Schiffer
>...
> On another note: I should have remembered this correctly, since
> it's Exhibit B in the "Color Kid was Always Underused" argument.
> (Exhibit A being, "Really, What's Tasmia Got that He Doesn't"?)
Well... perhaps Mon-El might be able to explain it to you. (Though
the differences diminished once Infectious Lass got to CK in the Subs
Special.)
Mike
(who's long argued that if Color Kid picked his fights in the right
order, he could take down the GLC and the LSH all by his lonesome)
Michael S. Schiffer
> on 6/14/02 9:13 PM, Dan at dannyb...@aol.comnospam wrote:
>>George Grattan wrote:
>...
>>> But the Pocket Universe wasn't an exact replacement for the
>>> pre-Crisis DCU. That Supergirl (Matrix) had never been a
>>> member of the Legion, wasn't from Krypton, etc.--she'd never
>>> have had a ring, would never even have met the Legion.
>> I know. I was thinking of Superboy's ring. He must have had
>> one for communication purposes even if he didn't need it for
>> flight. Of course, since Superboy himself has made the trip it
>> could have been left behind by him.
>
> But the Pocket Universe Superboy only came into the post-Crisis
> Universe very briefly, IIRC, and, in any event, was buried in
> the 30th Century, presumably with his ring. Or- it may have been
> given to Mon-El, since they couldn't have returned it to anyone
> in the PU 20th Century at that point.
Superboy might not have been wearing his flight ring, given that he
was reluctantly betraying the Legion through most of the storyline.
Wearing the ring might have seemed like adding insult to injury.
In which case it was probably underneath the Kent house in the
secret part of the basement. If the PU Luthor found it there,
though, you'd think he'd have either used it or given it to one of
the other human survivors to use in the fight against the Phantom
Zone criminals. So it's unlikely that Matrix wound up with it
either way.
Mike
Tim
"Michael S. Schiffer" <msch...@condor.depaul.edu> wrote in message
> Mike
> (who's long argued that if Color Kid picked his fights in the right
> order, he could take down the GLC and the LSH all by his lonesome)
>
What order would that be? Seems like it would be an incredible stretch for
him to even hold his own with the majority of LSH'ers much less beat them.
Blok
Dale Hicks
nospa...@aol.com_nospam says...
I assume GLC then LSH.
Getting all the rings from GL's by getting their worlds yellow, then
doing a Parallax on the LSH.
I assume you'd go after one of the less physically gifted GL's first, an
Arisia-type and not a Kilowog-type.
Or maybe Ch'P or G'Nort.
--
Cranial Crusader dgh...@bellsouth.net
Michael S. Schiffer
news:1lbP8.55222$R61....@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net:
First pick a fight with a GL (or more than one, as needed to
neutralize further trouble from that direction-- getting more rings
and batteries may or may not translate to added power, but it can't
hurt). I take it that there's no need to demonstrate that Color
Kid could take out a GL? (Anything he wants to be yellow is
yellow, and his powers demonstrably work on objects larger than a
planet. He can select from any number of lethal or nonlethal means
of attacking a GL, and their defenses are useless. And pre-Crisis
30th century tech was up to destroying planets and constructing
stars. Given adequate preparation, he could beat *Mogo*.)
Now CK has one or more power rings with power completely immune to
yellow, at least to the limits of his attention. Nothing yellow
should be able to approach anywhere near him, and nothing near him
should stay yellow. This is adequate for dealing with quite a lot
of the Legionnaires. As for their heavy hitters: 1) Color Kid
waves his hands-- the sunlight for a planetary diameter around
turns red. Superboy falls out of the sky. 2) Mon-El's serum
protects him from that. Tragically, that serum includes green K as
a component. Which is now blue K. Mon-El falls out of the sky.
Ultra Boy and Wildfire are a little tougher, but Ultra Boy's
vulnerable to radiation, which a GL ring can probably produce.
(And if it can't, it can certainly take CK to a high-radiation
environment and protect him from it.) And GL energy is probably up
to shredding Drake's containment suit and/or holding him off.
For the rest, they're mostly material and sans supersenses-- making
their eyes' corneas and lenses (and their transsuits, for good
measure) dead black will make their lives fairly difficult, and
make it possible to defeat them in detail. Saturn Girl and Sensor
Girl remain problems, since neither of them is especially dependent
on vision. (Neither is Dawnstar, but Dawnstar doesn't have any
attacks that a GL needs to worry about) The plot should clearly
involve taking them out before embarking on the campaign of
villainy, which admittedly is quite a task when dealing with a
telepath and someone whose power is essentially to be immune to
being tricked. Similarly, are the Guardians (who will take an
interest when someone slices through the GLC as if he were wielding
a sword made of creamy yellow butter-- only, you know, hard, sharp,
and pointy) vulnerable to yellow? The sources conflict. (Though
in pre-Crisis LSH continuity, it's noteworthy that Darkseid's
Guardian clone certainly was.)
Obviously, as with any ho'od win question, it all depends on
circumstances. What does Color Kid want? Are the Legionnaires
attacking or defending? Who gets to choose the ground? Is the
book still titled "Legion of Super-Heroes" rather than "Color Kid:
Emperor of Space"? Etc. But for someone relegated to the Subs, CK
could certainly make a better solo play for the brass ring than,
say, Fire Lad or Night Girl. Or most of the LSH itself, for that
matter.
Mike
Hal Shipman
Adv #s 351 & 352 (Bless you Archives) and a few clarifications.
BTW - I'm pretty sure this was the FIRST Legion story I ever read.
Certainly the first Adventure-era story. I bought the issues when I
was probably about 10 at my first comics convention at probably the
first dealer table.
I remember that the review of the souvenirs really gave me the sense
of the Legion's already rich history. As a note to the
continuity-averse, I have to say that it only prodded my curiosity to
read more Legion. It certainly didn't scare me off. Though I don't
think I read the Satan Girl story until I had that Archive a couple of
years ago.
I think this take is a great example of how to deal with the entire
membership, bring in LOTS of history and STILL make the material
accessible to first time readers.
Anyway, I was pretty sure I had a tyg-like memory of the details, but
just to be sure.,,,
Here goes:
"Kevin Yong" <writ...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Nope- they both were under the post-hypnotic command from Saturn Girl,
> aided by a microscopic piece of Kryptonnite lodged in their brains.
Nope - Just Green K in the "layer in the cerebrum as retaining
Superboy's memories of the Legion!" The post-hypnotic command is not
mentioned.
on 6/14/02 9:00 AM, Terence Chua at kh...@tim.org wrote:
> But I thought that Element Lad transformed that Kryptonite into Helium.
> Unless that was a *different* piece of Kryptonite the Legion had implanted
> in their heads.
Close - The transformation of Green K to Helium was on the Cloud,
starting "a chain reaction that could have destroyed Earth!" Supergil
says in the last panel, "[Color Kid] used the same method to change
the Green K capsules in our heads [to Blue K] and restore our
memories!"
On Sun, 16 Jun 2002 15:49:33 -0400, George Grattan <gra...@rcn.com>
wrote:
>A-ha. Not sure I follow the logic, though: if the post-hypnotic command
>placed by Imra had been good enough when they were expected to continue as
>active members, why was the micro-K added when they resigned (albeit
>temporarily)?
Good question. Though I think the only good answer to that is
meta-textual: If you don't need the Green K, you don't get your Vi in
Superboy's bloodstream/Fantastic Voyage[2] scene.
Hal.
[1] Though I'm still not convinced that it was Imra's command at all.
I've started plowing through my Archives to validate my own (probably
false) memory that it was Supergirl. But dammit, there's a lot of
them.
[2] Fantastic Voyage had just been released that year (1966). It was
probably still in theaters when this story was written (Nov 1966 cover
date), but at least fresh in everyone's mind.
I don't wear no Stetson
But I'm willing to bet, son
That I'm as big a Texan as you are
- Robert Earl Keen, "Amarillo Highway"
.
Remove the underscore in the address to reply by email.
Hal Shipman
Adv #s 351 & 352 (Bless you Archives) and a few clarifications.
BTW - I'm pretty sure this was the FIRST Legion story I ever read.
Certainly the first Adventure-era story. I bought the issues when I
was probably about 10 at my first comics convention at probably the
first dealer table.
I remember that the review of the souvenirs really gave me the sense
of the Legion's already rich history. As a note to the
continuity-averse, I have to say that it only prodded my curiosity to
read more Legion. It certainly didn't scare me off. Though I don't
think I read the Satan Girl story until I had that Archive a couple of
years ago.
I think this take is a great example of how to deal with the entire
membership, bring in LOTS of history and STILL make the material
accessible to first time readers.
Anyway, I was pretty sure I had a tyg-like memory of the details, but
just to be sure.,,,
Here goes:
"Kevin Yong" <writ...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Nope- they both were under the post-hypnotic command from Saturn Girl,
> aided by a microscopic piece of Kryptonnite lodged in their brains.
Nope - Just Green K in the "layer in the cerebrum as retaining
Superboy's memories of the Legion!" The post-hypnotic command is not
mentioned.
on 6/14/02 9:00 AM, Terence Chua at kh...@tim.org wrote:
> But I thought that Element Lad transformed that Kryptonite into Helium.
> Unless that was a *different* piece of Kryptonite the Legion had implanted
> in their heads.
Close - The transformation of Green K to Helium was on the Cloud,
starting "a chain reaction that could have destroyed Earth!" Supergil
says in the last panel, "[Color Kid] used the same method to change
the Green K capsules in our heads [to Blue K] and restore our
memories!"
On Sun, 16 Jun 2002 15:49:33 -0400, George Grattan <gra...@rcn.com>
wrote:
>A-ha. Not sure I follow the logic, though: if the post-hypnotic command
>placed by Imra had been good enough when they were expected to continue as
>active members, why was the micro-K added when they resigned (albeit
>temporarily)?
Good question. Though I think the only good answer to that is
Michael S. Schiffer
news:njrqgugk9jsc6erna...@4ax.com:
>...
> On Sun, 16 Jun 2002 15:49:33 -0400, George Grattan
> <gra...@rcn.com> wrote:
>>A-ha. Not sure I follow the logic, though: if the post-hypnotic
>>command placed by Imra had been good enough when they were
>>expected to continue as active members, why was the micro-K added
>>when they resigned (albeit temporarily)?
> Good question. Though I think the only good answer to that is
> meta-textual: If you don't need the Green K, you don't get your
> Vi in Superboy's bloodstream/Fantastic Voyage[2] scene.
>...
> [2] Fantastic Voyage had just been released that year (1966). It
> was probably still in theaters when this story was written (Nov
> 1966 cover date), but at least fresh in everyone's mind.
And we know (from Shooter, at least) that Weisinger was far from
averse to telling his writers to do a rip-off of^WWhomage to
whatever movie or TV series was popular at the time.
Tom Galloway
George Grattan <gra...@rcn.com> wrote:
>On another note: I should have remembered this correctly, since it's Exhibit
>B in the "Color Kid was Always Underused" argument. (Exhibit A being,
>"Really, What's Tasmia Got that He Doesn't"?)
The luck to make a good contribution in battle against one of the Legion's
toughest foes rather than just show up at an open call tryout. And the sense
to very quickly suck up to prominent Legionnaires of the appropriate gender
(for a few issues, Tasmia was going after Brainiac 5, and apparently
switched to Mon-El during the Mordru story after either being informed that
Brainy had it bad for Kara during the previous issue's 2nd Revolt of the
Girl Legionnaires story, or Kara explaining it to her rather forcefully
off-panel :-)).
Although in fairness to Color Kid, pretty much all of the female Legionnaires
when he tried out were in strong romantic relationships already. Triplicate
Girl was the only obvious exception, and it's not much of a push to assume
she already had her crush on Superboy at that point.
tyg t...@panix.com
Terence Chua
Hal Shipman <h_sh...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>on 6/14/02 9:00 AM, Terence Chua at kh...@tim.org wrote:
>> But I thought that Element Lad transformed that Kryptonite into Helium.
>> Unless that was a *different* piece of Kryptonite the Legion had implanted
>> in their heads.
>
>Close - The transformation of Green K to Helium was on the Cloud,
>starting "a chain reaction that could have destroyed Earth!" Supergil
>says in the last panel, "[Color Kid] used the same method to change
>the Green K capsules in our heads [to Blue K] and restore our
>memories!"
Um, I can't be bothered to go back and check the attribution for that,
but it wasn't me who made the above query. Just for accuracy's sake. :-)
Terence Chua
>On Sun, 16 Jun 2002 15:49:33 -0400, George Grattan <gra...@rcn.com>
>wrote:
>>A-ha. Not sure I follow the logic, though: if the post-hypnotic command
>>placed by Imra had been good enough when they were expected to continue as
>>active members, why was the micro-K added when they resigned (albeit
>>temporarily)?
>
>Good question. Though I think the only good answer to that is
>meta-textual: If you don't need the Green K, you don't get your Vi in
>Superboy's bloodstream/Fantastic Voyage[2] scene.
Well, there's another answer - speculative, of course: Imra's
post-hypnotic suggestion (to Superboy) was to block any memories of
facts he might discover about his own future but to keep his memories of
the Legion intact. This time, they were going to remove the entire block
of memories about the Legion entirely. Perhaps this was even beyond
Imra's powers to guarantee, so they resorted to kryptonite instead of
the Titanian mind-trick.
Lilith
<msch...@condor.depaul.edu> wrote:
>First pick a fight with a GL (or more than one, as needed to
>neutralize further trouble from that direction-- getting more rings
>and batteries may or may not translate to added power, but it can't
>hurt). I take it that there's no need to demonstrate that Color
>Kid could take out a GL? (Anything he wants to be yellow is
>yellow, and his powers demonstrably work on objects larger than a
>planet. He can select from any number of lethal or nonlethal means
>of attacking a GL, and their defenses are useless. And pre-Crisis
>30th century tech was up to destroying planets and constructing
>stars. Given adequate preparation, he could beat *Mogo*.)
But there have been times when a GL has been without power and they've
still won the battle through sheer resourcefulness. Even if he beat a
few, he'd still have the remainder of the 3,600 sectors to deal with.
That takes time, enough to keep him occupied to a ripe old age. And
it wouldn't be long before one of the GLs brought him down through
clever means.
>Now CK has one or more power rings with power completely immune to
>yellow, at least to the limits of his attention. Nothing yellow
>should be able to approach anywhere near him, and nothing near him
>should stay yellow. This is adequate for dealing with quite a lot
>of the Legionnaires. As for their heavy hitters: 1) Color Kid
>waves his hands-- the sunlight for a planetary diameter around
>turns red. Superboy falls out of the sky. 2) Mon-El's serum
>protects him from that. Tragically, that serum includes green K as
>a component. Which is now blue K. Mon-El falls out of the sky.
This is where it gets iffy. Objects have color because of what they
absorb out of the spectrum and what components they reflect. The sun
produces an apparent yellow color, not because it's a material object
but because it's hydrogen content is continuously fusioning. To think
you can turn the color of the sun anything other than yellow is
absurd.
Do we know for a fact that Mon-El's serum contains green K, or is that
something something concocted for the sake of the story?
>Ultra Boy and Wildfire are a little tougher, but Ultra Boy's
>vulnerable to radiation, which a GL ring can probably produce.
>(And if it can't, it can certainly take CK to a high-radiation
>environment and protect him from it.) And GL energy is probably up
>to shredding Drake's containment suit and/or holding him off.
But Drake is still powerful, containment suit or not. Rely on the
ring? Maybe. But what kind of energy is Drake? Can he pass through
solid objects?
>For the rest, they're mostly material and sans supersenses-- making
>their eyes' corneas and lenses (and their transsuits, for good
>measure) dead black will make their lives fairly difficult, and
>make it possible to defeat them in detail. Saturn Girl and Sensor
>Girl remain problems, since neither of them is especially dependent
>on vision. (Neither is Dawnstar, but Dawnstar doesn't have any
>attacks that a GL needs to worry about) The plot should clearly
>involve taking them out before embarking on the campaign of
>villainy, which admittedly is quite a task when dealing with a
>telepath and someone whose power is essentially to be immune to
>being tricked. Similarly, are the Guardians (who will take an
>interest when someone slices through the GLC as if he were wielding
>a sword made of creamy yellow butter-- only, you know, hard, sharp,
>and pointy) vulnerable to yellow? The sources conflict. (Though
>in pre-Crisis LSH continuity, it's noteworthy that Darkseid's
>Guardian clone certainly was.)
I doubt the Guardians are vulnerable to yellow. The impurity was in
the rings, not the power battery.
>Obviously, as with any ho'od win question, it all depends on
>circumstances. What does Color Kid want? Are the Legionnaires
>attacking or defending? Who gets to choose the ground? Is the
>book still titled "Legion of Super-Heroes" rather than "Color Kid:
>Emperor of Space"? Etc. But for someone relegated to the Subs, CK
>could certainly make a better solo play for the brass ring than,
>say, Fire Lad or Night Girl. Or most of the LSH itself, for that
>matter.
In thinking about this, Color Kid should be no less powerful or useful
than Shadow Lass. Or is black really within his range? Can he rob
color as well? If so, he could change the air to black to blot out
vision. But then, air is colorless, so can you impart color to it?
>Mike
Lil
George Grattan
wrote:
(Snip of Beautiful Stuff, Mike....)
> For the rest, they're mostly material and sans supersenses-- making
> their eyes' corneas and lenses (and their transsuits, for good
> measure) dead black will make their lives fairly difficult, and
> make it possible to defeat them in detail. Saturn Girl and Sensor
> Girl remain problems, since neither of them is especially dependent
> on vision.
Reading through your description (which seems utterly plausible, given the
conditions selected), I was waiting for you to get to Jeckie and Imra who
would be, I agree, the greatest threats to the establishment of "CK:ONE".
:-)
But if he planned correctly, he'd take them out before (or, in Imra's case)
just as they knew what was going on.
Hal Shipman
(Lilith) wrote:
>Do we know for a fact that Mon-El's serum contains green K, or is that
>something something concocted for the sake of the story?
Yep - established in the Adventure days, I think, but certainly by
1970.
I did just check the first two "cure" stories (Saturn Girl's temporary
cure and B5's more permanent solution (48 hr duration) a few months
later), and there's no mention in them.
But is was definitely canon by the Action comics backups, as Mon-El
refers to it in the Eltro Gand story (Action #384).
Hal.
Michael S. Schiffer
news:3d0e10b4....@dscnews.dcccd.edu:
> On 17 Jun 2002 02:46:52 GMT, "Michael S. Schiffer"
><msch...@condor.depaul.edu> wrote:
>
>>First pick a fight with a GL (or more than one, as needed to
>>neutralize further trouble from that direction-- getting more
>>rings and batteries may or may not translate to added power,
>>but it can't hurt). I take it that there's no need to
>>demonstrate that Color Kid could take out a GL?
>...
> But there have been times when a GL has been without power and
> they've still won the battle through sheer resourcefulness.
Sure. If the fight is taking place in "Green Lantern", that's
exactly what will happen. If it's taking place in "Legion of
Super-Heroes", then they'll be sidelined and the Legion will be the
ones who have to be resourceful, and who are ultimately victorious.
If it's "What If: Color Kid Went Bad" (assuming DC had a What If
series[1]), then it depends on which way the writers want things to
go. But either way, we're not requiring the sort of stretch that,
say, Aunt May vs. Galactus did.
[1] They have Elseworlds, but those aren't quite as prone to ending
in disaster to prove that the main timeline is the best of all
possible worlds as What If sometimes seemed to be.
> Even if he beat a few, he'd still have the remainder of the
> 3,600 sectors to deal with. That takes time, enough to keep him
> occupied to a ripe old age. And it wouldn't be long before one
> of the GLs brought him down through clever means.
Maybe, maybe not. There are opponents that 3600 GLs have had
substantial trouble taking down permanently. Sinestro, for
example, had quite the run, and Color Kid with one or more power
rings has everything he did plus a little extra.
>...
As for their heavy hitters: 1)
>>Color Kid waves his hands-- the sunlight for a planetary
>>diameter around turns red. Superboy falls out of the sky. 2)
>>Mon-El's serum protects him from that. Tragically, that serum
>>includes green K as a component. Which is now blue K. Mon-El
>>falls out of the sky.
> This is where it gets iffy. Objects have color because of what
> they absorb out of the spectrum and what components they
> reflect. The sun produces an apparent yellow color, not because
> it's a material object but because it's hydrogen content is
> continuously fusioning. To think you can turn the color of the
> sun anything other than yellow is absurd.
As opposed to any other power of any Legionnaire? If you want to
drag real science into it, feel free to justify Shrinking Violet,
or Superboy, or Dawnstar. :-) The whole "yellow sunlight gives
powers, red sunlight takes them away" thing is pure comic book
pseudoscience without the slightest justification in reality.
There is no additional suspension of disbelief required for Color
Kid to be able to make use of that vulnerability with his power.
In fact it makes a good deal of sense given the way Color Kid's
power and Superboy's vulnerability have been portrayed. (Superboy
and Superman frequently encountered "red sun projectors", or were
made vulnerable by some villain messing with the sunlight reaching
Earth.)
> Do we know for a fact that Mon-El's serum contains green K, or
> is that something something concocted for the sake of the story?
That was canonical pre-Zero Hour.
>>Ultra Boy and Wildfire are a little tougher, but Ultra Boy's
>>vulnerable to radiation, which a GL ring can probably produce.
>>(And if it can't, it can certainly take CK to a high-radiation
>>environment and protect him from it.) And GL energy is probably
>>up to shredding Drake's containment suit and/or holding him off.
> But Drake is still powerful, containment suit or not.
Not really. Without his containment suit, he was usually treated
as a helpless ball of anti-energy. He could move of his own
accord, but not do much in the way of acting till he made his way
back to another containment suit. (That's why the Legion thought
ERG-1 had died, that first time.)
Rely on
> the ring? Maybe. But what kind of energy is Drake? Can he
> pass through solid objects?
Sometimes, with difficulty, but I don't think he could pass through
force fields. I'd guess that he could try to bash down a GL's
force wall, but not ignore it.
>...
Similarly, are the Guardians
>>(who will take an interest when someone slices through the GLC
>>as if he were wielding a sword made of creamy yellow butter--
>>only, you know, hard, sharp, and pointy) vulnerable to yellow?
>>The sources conflict. (Though in pre-Crisis LSH continuity,
>>it's noteworthy that Darkseid's Guardian clone certainly was.)
> I doubt the Guardians are vulnerable to yellow. The impurity
> was in the rings, not the power battery.
Again, it depends on the story. The Guardians, in any case, aren't
notably into personal intervention. They might or might not notice
that a few GLs were disabled (they certainly didn't check up on Hal
especially often. IIRC, it was weeks or months before they
contacted Hal after Abin Sur handed off the ring and battery.).
But a tussle in the UP (which the Guardians already had a hands-off
policy regarding) would be unlikely to provoke much more than an
eventual investigation.
>>Obviously, as with any ho'od win question, it all depends on
>>circumstances. What does Color Kid want? Are the Legionnaires
>>attacking or defending? Who gets to choose the ground? Is the
>>book still titled "Legion of Super-Heroes" rather than "Color
>>Kid: Emperor of Space"? Etc. But for someone relegated to the
>>Subs, CK could certainly make a better solo play for the brass
>>ring than, say, Fire Lad or Night Girl. Or most of the LSH
>>itself, for that matter.
> In thinking about this, Color Kid should be no less powerful or
> useful than Shadow Lass.
That was the point George Grattan made a couple of posts back. :-)
Or is black really within his range?
> Can he rob color as well? If so, he could change the air to
> black to blot out vision. But then, air is colorless, so can
> you impart color to it?
I'm not sure if there's a canonical answer. (Did he ever use his
power on air, or glass, or anything of that sort?) But it's
traditional for friends-turned-foes to get a power boost when they
take on their former teammates and allies. (Because otherwise,
given that they're outnumbered, the story ends on page two.) So
even if he couldn't do it as a good guy, I'd say he should be able
to as a villain.
George Grattan
>
> But there have been times when a GL has been without power and they've
> still won the battle through sheer resourcefulness.
True- but note the circumstances Mike's little scenario assumes: take on the
less experienced and less resourceful GLs first, amassing power as you go.
If CK went up against a (sane) Hal Jordan when Hal was having a good day
first, he'd be taking too many chances, yes. But target a younger, (ahem)
greener GL, take that ring, and repeat as necessary, saving the harder
targets like Hal, Tomar-Re, etc. for later.
Of course, if we're dealing with the current GL universe, CK would attack
Kyle first, then Jade (her plant powers, if she's still got them, could be a
surprising problem), then Alan. :-)
>
> This is where it gets iffy. Objects have color because of what they
> absorb out of the spectrum and what components they reflect. The sun
> produces an apparent yellow color, not because it's a material object
> but because it's hydrogen content is continuously fusioning. To think
> you can turn the color of the sun anything other than yellow is
> absurd.
Welcome to Silver Age superhero science. It happened on more than one
occasion. As others have pointed out, "color" in DC comics (especially in
the Silver Age) doesn't function the same way color does in the real world.
>
> Do we know for a fact that Mon-El's serum contains green K, or is that
> something something concocted for the sake of the story?
Green K was indeed part of the serum.
>
>> Ultra Boy and Wildfire are a little tougher, but Ultra Boy's
>> vulnerable to radiation, which a GL ring can probably produce.
>> (And if it can't, it can certainly take CK to a high-radiation
>> environment and protect him from it.) And GL energy is probably up
>> to shredding Drake's containment suit and/or holding him off.
>
> But Drake is still powerful, containment suit or not.
Depends on which era Drake you're talking about. Pre-Quiselt's tutoring,
Drake sans containment suit was a pretty useless blob.
>Rely on the
> ring? Maybe. But what kind of energy is Drake? Can he pass through
> solid objects?
Depends on the writer- but, for the most part, he couldn't do much of
anything without the suit, pre-Quislet.
>
>> For the rest, they're mostly material and sans supersenses-- making
>> their eyes' corneas and lenses (and their transsuits, for good
>> measure) dead black will make their lives fairly difficult, and
>> make it possible to defeat them in detail. Saturn Girl and Sensor
>> Girl remain problems, since neither of them is especially dependent
>> on vision. (Neither is Dawnstar, but Dawnstar doesn't have any
>> attacks that a GL needs to worry about) The plot should clearly
>> involve taking them out before embarking on the campaign of
>> villainy, which admittedly is quite a task when dealing with a
>> telepath and someone whose power is essentially to be immune to
>> being tricked. Similarly, are the Guardians (who will take an
>> interest when someone slices through the GLC as if he were wielding
>> a sword made of creamy yellow butter-- only, you know, hard, sharp,
>> and pointy) vulnerable to yellow? The sources conflict. (Though
>> in pre-Crisis LSH continuity, it's noteworthy that Darkseid's
>> Guardian clone certainly was.)
>
> I doubt the Guardians are vulnerable to yellow. The impurity was in
> the rings, not the power battery.
Except, as Mike points out, there are stories that show them sharing the
yellow weakness, so it's anyone's guess.
>
>> Obviously, as with any ho'od win question, it all depends on
>> circumstances. What does Color Kid want? Are the Legionnaires
>> attacking or defending? Who gets to choose the ground? Is the
>> book still titled "Legion of Super-Heroes" rather than "Color Kid:
>> Emperor of Space"? Etc. But for someone relegated to the Subs, CK
>> could certainly make a better solo play for the brass ring than,
>> say, Fire Lad or Night Girl. Or most of the LSH itself, for that
>> matter.
>
> In thinking about this, Color Kid should be no less powerful or useful
> than Shadow Lass.
Yup- lots of us have long maintained that he's far *more* powerful and
useful than Shady.
> Or is black really within his range? Can he rob
> color as well? If so, he could change the air to black to blot out
> vision. But then, air is colorless, so can you impart color to it?
He's been shown casting blackness, yes, with pretty much the same effects as
Shady's shadow power. Again, color has/had a different reality in the comics
than in the real world. (Fortunately for CK, who would otherwise have been
easily defeated with some good lighting gels.... :-) )
George Grattan
> George Grattan <gra...@rcn.com> wrote in
> news:B9326680.1B237%gra...@rcn.com:
>
>> on 6/14/02 9:13 PM, Dan at dannyb...@aol.comnospam wrote:
>>> George Grattan wrote:
>> ...
>>>> But the Pocket Universe wasn't an exact replacement for the
>>>> pre-Crisis DCU. That Supergirl (Matrix) had never been a
>>>> member of the Legion, wasn't from Krypton, etc.--she'd never
>>>> have had a ring, would never even have met the Legion.
>
>>> I know. I was thinking of Superboy's ring. He must have had
>>> one for communication purposes even if he didn't need it for
>>> flight. Of course, since Superboy himself has made the trip it
>>> could have been left behind by him.
>>
>> But the Pocket Universe Superboy only came into the post-Crisis
>> Universe very briefly, IIRC, and, in any event, was buried in
>> the 30th Century, presumably with his ring. Or- it may have been
>> given to Mon-El, since they couldn't have returned it to anyone
>> in the PU 20th Century at that point.
>
> Superboy might not have been wearing his flight ring, given that he
> was reluctantly betraying the Legion through most of the storyline.
> Wearing the ring might have seemed like adding insult to injury.
That's possible, but I think it's a stretch. Knowing how the pre-Crisis Kal
loved guilt, I think he'd have kept in on to remind him of the full
seriousness of what he was doing, actually.
> In which case it was probably underneath the Kent house in the
> secret part of the basement. If the PU Luthor found it there,
> though, you'd think he'd have either used it or given it to one of
> the other human survivors to use in the fight against the Phantom
> Zone criminals.
Except the PU Luthor was, obviously, a complete and utter putz. He had Gold
K and Green K at his disposal for decades, yet didn't use them because of
his "pride"? Pfff. The PU Luthor clearly wouldn't have used the Miracle
Machine if he'd had it...
>So it's unlikely that Matrix wound up with it
> either way.
Agreed. And she's never given any indication she has it, not even when
meeting the Legion during their time in the 20th Century.
George Grattan
(Snip)
> Here goes:
>
> "Kevin Yong" <writ...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Nope- they both were under the post-hypnotic command from Saturn Girl,
>> aided by a microscopic piece of Kryptonnite lodged in their brains.
That might have been me, actually, not Kevin. But I can't tell anymore- I'm
suffering a post-hypnotic command to forget everything I post on Usenet..
>
> On Sun, 16 Jun 2002 15:49:33 -0400, George Grattan <gra...@rcn.com>
> wrote:
>> A-ha. Not sure I follow the logic, though: if the post-hypnotic command
>> placed by Imra had been good enough when they were expected to continue as
>> active members, why was the micro-K added when they resigned (albeit
>> temporarily)?
>
> Good question. Though I think the only good answer to that is
> meta-textual: If you don't need the Green K, you don't get your Vi in
> Superboy's bloodstream/Fantastic Voyage[2] scene.
>
>
> Hal.
>
> [1] Though I'm still not convinced that it was Imra's command at all.
Well, it may not have been then. It certainly was attributed to her by the
time Superboy leaves after the Conway-scripted Psycho Warrior story in LSH
258. I've always just retconned it backwards from there, I suppose, since it
makes the most sense in terms of the overall Legion mythos.
(Though, one must admit, there's a certain Silver Age poignancy to Kara
herself placing the command that he forget her. Presumably she hypnotized
herself in the mirror, as in other SA tales, or he returned the favor?)
> I've started plowing through my Archives to validate my own (probably
> false) memory that it was Supergirl. But dammit, there's a lot of
> them.
> [2] Fantastic Voyage had just been released that year (1966). It was
> probably still in theaters when this story was written (Nov 1966 cover
> date), but at least fresh in everyone's mind.
Certainly in Kal's. :-) But does this Vi-ayge predate Ant-Man's trip (aided
by Thomas and Adams, as well as Crosby, Stills, and Nash, into the Vision in
the Kree-Skrull war?
>
>
> I don't wear no Stetson
> But I'm willing to bet, son
> That I'm as big a Texan as you are
> - Robert Earl Keen, "Amarillo Highway"
> .
> Remove the underscore in the address to reply by email.
Shalom, Peace, Salaam,
George Grattan
> In article <B932640D.1B235%gra...@rcn.com>,
> George Grattan <gra...@rcn.com> wrote:
>> On another note: I should have remembered this correctly, since it's Exhibit
>> B in the "Color Kid was Always Underused" argument. (Exhibit A being,
>> "Really, What's Tasmia Got that He Doesn't"?)
>
> The luck to make a good contribution in battle against one of the Legion's
> toughest foes rather than just show up at an open call tryout. And the sense
> to very quickly suck up to prominent Legionnaires of the appropriate gender
> (for a few issues, Tasmia was going after Brainiac 5, and apparently
> switched to Mon-El during the Mordru story after either being informed that
> Brainy had it bad for Kara during the previous issue's 2nd Revolt of the
> Girl Legionnaires story, or Kara explaining it to her rather forcefully
> off-panel :-)).
Well argued. Tasmia, like Jeckie, also had political connections that CK (as
far as we know) lacked. It's hard to believe that too many Legionnaries at
the time would have been totally blind to the potential benefits of having
one of the heroes of Mallor on the team, from a p.r. and UP-relations
standpoint.
Michael S. Schiffer
>...
> Of course, if we're dealing with the current GL universe, CK
> would attack Kyle first, then Jade (her plant powers, if she's
> still got them, could be a surprising problem
Though a real bonus for her, since it presumably would help her
stop people from using wood against her.
), then Alan. :-)
Though the plan works *far* less well in the current GL universe,
since I don't think anyone has the yellow weakness anymore.
(Unless that's been reintroduced post-Ion.) I also don't know
whether red sunlight affects Daxamites the same way-- IIRC, it
would just trigger a slow draining in Superman that would give the
latter plenty of time to deal with Color Kid. And the serum is
probably no longer kryptonite-based. (And if it is, it's unclear
that changing the color of modern K changes its properties the same
way it did once upon a time.)
>...
> Again, color has/had a
> different reality in the comics than in the real world.
> (Fortunately for CK, who would otherwise have been easily
> defeated with some good lighting gels.... :-) )
"We dropped a box of lighting gels on him, just as you suggested,
Batman. It seems to have knocked him out."
Michael S. Schiffer
> on 6/16/02 7:47 PM, Michael S. Schiffer at
> msch...@condor.depaul.edu wrote:
>...
>> In which case it was probably underneath the Kent house in the
>> secret part of the basement. If the PU Luthor found it there,
>> though, you'd think he'd have either used it or given it to one
>> of the other human survivors to use in the fight against the
>> Phantom Zone criminals.
> Except the PU Luthor was, obviously, a complete and utter putz.
> He had Gold K and Green K at his disposal for decades, yet
> didn't use them because of his "pride"? Pfff. The PU Luthor
> clearly wouldn't have used the Miracle Machine if he'd had it...
No kidding. The Silver Age Luthor used kryptonite as if it were
going out of style. (Which it did, briefly, just after the Silver
Age ended. :-) ) Clearly Lex needed the youthful influence of
Superboy to kickstart his pragmatic streak.
Not to mention his inventiveness. You could probably open up any
half-dozen Superboy comics and find devices Luthor could have used
to defend against the Phantom Zoner onslaught, from red sun
projectors to time machines to artificial kryptonite. It's not as
if the Zoners showed any particular tactical brilliance, even by
Silver Age Superboy story standards. (Maybe Lex really needed the
experience of working in that lab Superboy built for him.)
Lilith
>Although in fairness to Color Kid, pretty much all of the female Legionnaires
>when he tried out were in strong romantic relationships already. Triplicate
>Girl was the only obvious exception, and it's not much of a push to assume
>she already had her crush on Superboy at that point.
I thought she had this relation going on with two other people. Both
of them girls..... :-)
>tyg t...@panix.com
Lil
Hal Shipman
wrote:
>on 6/17/02 12:48 AM, Hal Shipman at h_sh...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
>> [2] Fantastic Voyage had just been released that year (1966). It was
>> probably still in theaters when this story was written (Nov 1966 cover
>> date), but at least fresh in everyone's mind.
>
>Certainly in Kal's. :-) But does this Vi-ayge predate Ant-Man's trip (aided
>by Thomas and Adams, as well as Crosby, Stills, and Nash, into the Vision in
>the Kree-Skrull war?
George, you're just teasing me now, aren't you.
Laid-off tech guy, working from home with WAY too many TPBs literally
within arm's reach. ;-)
Thanks to my TPB copy of the Kree-Skrull War and Google (to check the
year), the answer is "Yes." "Journey to the Center of the Android,"
Avengers #93, has a cover date of Nov 1971, according to the Silver
Age Marvel Comics Cover Index (whew -
http://www.samcci.comics.org/avengers/093.htm).
Though seeing as how it's very possible that the Vi story was written
while the film was still in the theater (don't remember the lead times
v cover dates and couldn't find FV's month of release - I just assume
it was summer), there is only a Vi-sized window of time that the
Avengers could have predated the Vi-ayge.
Hal.
Hal Shipman
<msch...@condor.depaul.edu> wrote:
> I also don't know
>whether red sunlight affects Daxamites the same way-- IIRC, it
>would just trigger a slow draining in Superman that would give the
>latter plenty of time to deal with Color Kid.
We've seen it two ways post-boot:
1) Instant Daxamite power off-switch (Brainy needing to inject
Andromeda in the desert).
2) Draining - once where M'onel has a few seconds to beat up some
Khunds before he was powerless and just in the last few months where
it took a day or two of exposure to become vulnerable to bullets (or
rather, he would have, failing his rescue).
Of course, in that very same story, less than a second of exposure was
enough to weaken him so that Ra's was able to take him out in *one*
punch (and this was NOT a post-Lazurus pit power-up moment).
Pre-boot - IIRC, the anti-lead serum also allowed Mon-el to retain his
powers under a red sun.
Kevin Yong
"George Grattan" <gra...@rcn.com> wrote in message
news:B933972F.1B53D%gra...@rcn.com...
> on 6/17/02 12:48 AM, Hal Shipman at h_sh...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
> (Snip)
> > Here goes:
> >
> > "Kevin Yong" <writ...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> Nope- they both were under the post-hypnotic command from Saturn Girl,
> >> aided by a microscopic piece of Kryptonnite lodged in their brains.
>
> That might have been me, actually, not Kevin. But I can't tell anymore-
I'm
> suffering a post-hypnotic command to forget everything I post on Usenet..
It wansn't me, unless it was the Kevin Yong of the pre-Zero Hour
pocket universe Earth 2. Or something like that...
Y'know, I'm finding it very ironic that all of us are having such
problems remembering the details of Superboy's post-hypnotic
memory wipes.
I think that part of our confusion is because both Saturn Girl
and Supergirl have tampered with Kal's mind at various times
for various reasons. Who was responsible for what when?
I don't know, but it's a good excuse to re-read my old
Legion collection.
-- Kevin Yong,
forgetful starving comics writer at large
George Grattan
> George Grattan <gra...@rcn.com> wrote in
> news:B933948F.1B53B%gra...@rcn.com:
>> ...
>> Of course, if we're dealing with the current GL universe, CK
>> would attack Kyle first, then Jade (her plant powers, if she's
>> still got them, could be a surprising problem
>
> Though a real bonus for her, since it presumably would help her
> stop people from using wood against her.
I could make a joke about how it hasn't stopped Kyle, but I won't....
>
> ), then Alan. :-)
>
> Though the plan works *far* less well in the current GL universe,
> since I don't think anyone has the yellow weakness anymore.
D'oh! Um, yeah- good point. In the current set-up, CK's toast pretty
quickly. :-)
> (Unless that's been reintroduced post-Ion.) I also don't know
> whether red sunlight affects Daxamites the same way--
Didn't Ra's Al Ghul just use red-sun projectors to kick M'onel around the
room, or something?
> And the serum is
> probably no longer kryptonite-based. (And if it is, it's unclear
> that changing the color of modern K changes its properties the same
> way it did once upon a time.)
Yeah- I doubt that Green K is in the current serum, too.
>
>> ...
>> Again, color has/had a
>> different reality in the comics than in the real world.
>> (Fortunately for CK, who would otherwise have been easily
>> defeated with some good lighting gels.... :-) )
>
> "We dropped a box of lighting gels on him, just as you suggested,
> Batman. It seems to have knocked him out."
"Then why are you wasting my time telling me this? Of course it worked."
(Hmmm.....Batman.....Color Kid....: Color Kid vs. Crazy Quilt-- discuss.
Round Three: Color Kid vs. The Rainbow Raider....)
George Grattan
The PU Luthor's idiocy has long been one of my chief complaints about that
whole story (along with, you know, Superman becoming an executioner, etc.
etc.), especially because it's so inconsistent within the story itself. He
can't build a PZ projector (despite having the remains of one to
reverse-engineer), can't create a red-sun device, and can't do anything but
nurse his pride as the whole planet is slaughtered around him while the
Kryptonite sits waiting in a lead box under the remains of the Kent house.
And yet, we're supposed to believe he created the protomatter Matrix, imbued
her with Lana's memories and appearance, gave her psionic super-powers, and
sent her across a dimensional rift through time and space to "get help"?
Maybe it was the hair that made him so stupid.
George Grattan
> On Mon, 17 Jun 2002 13:39:59 -0400, George Grattan <gra...@rcn.com>
> wrote:
>
>> on 6/17/02 12:48 AM, Hal Shipman at h_sh...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>>
>
>>> [2] Fantastic Voyage had just been released that year (1966). It was
>>> probably still in theaters when this story was written (Nov 1966 cover
>>> date), but at least fresh in everyone's mind.
>>
>> Certainly in Kal's. :-) But does this Vi-ayge predate Ant-Man's trip (aided
>> by Thomas and Adams, as well as Crosby, Stills, and Nash, into the Vision in
>> the Kree-Skrull war?
>
> George, you're just teasing me now, aren't you.
Hee hee. Yes. But you play along *so* nicely..... :-)
Good to see Vi beat Hank to the swipe, anyway. I always knew she could take
him in a fight....
....(he said, starting another silly line of discussion....)
George Grattan
>
> "George Grattan" <gra...@rcn.com> wrote in message
> news:B933972F.1B53D%gra...@rcn.com...
>> on 6/17/02 12:48 AM, Hal Shipman at h_sh...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>>
>> (Snip)
>>> Here goes:
>>>
>>> "Kevin Yong" <writ...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Nope- they both were under the post-hypnotic command from Saturn Girl,
>>>> aided by a microscopic piece of Kryptonnite lodged in their brains.
>>
>> That might have been me, actually, not Kevin. But I can't tell anymore-
> I'm
>> suffering a post-hypnotic command to forget everything I post on Usenet..
>
> It wansn't me, unless it was the Kevin Yong of the pre-Zero Hour
> pocket universe Earth 2. Or something like that...
>
> Y'know, I'm finding it very ironic that all of us are having such
> problems remembering the details of Superboy's post-hypnotic
> memory wipes.
>
Ironic, or meta-textual? I'm getting creeped out here....
Lilith
wrote:
>> This is where it gets iffy. Objects have color because of what they
>> absorb out of the spectrum and what components they reflect. The sun
>> produces an apparent yellow color, not because it's a material object
>> but because it's hydrogen content is continuously fusioning. To think
>> you can turn the color of the sun anything other than yellow is
>> absurd.
>Welcome to Silver Age superhero science. It happened on more than one
>occasion. As others have pointed out, "color" in DC comics (especially in
>the Silver Age) doesn't function the same way color does in the real world.
That' probably because back then we only had four colors to work with.
:-)
Lil
Tom Galloway
>yellow, and his powers demonstrably work on objects larger than a planet.
Although we never saw him change anything to the infamous infra-yellow
that also worked against a power ring. :-)
tyg t...@panix.com
Dale Hicks
msch...@condor.depaul.edu says...
> > 3,600 sectors to deal with. That takes time, enough to keep him
> > occupied to a ripe old age. And it wouldn't be long before one
> > of the GLs brought him down through clever means.
>
> Maybe, maybe not. There are opponents that 3600 GLs have had
> substantial trouble taking down permanently.
Didn't Hal take out all 3600? There is precedent.
> > continuously fusioning. To think you can turn the color of the
> > sun anything other than yellow is absurd.
I love this line. What are you doing arguing about _Color_Kid_, then, if
this is the attitude you take?
> > the ring? Maybe. But what kind of energy is Drake? Can he
> > pass through solid objects?
>
> Sometimes, with difficulty, but I don't think he could pass through
> force fields.
Right, as evidenced by his inability to breach the force field
"protecting" his spare suit as the Molecule Master menaced the Legion,
yet being able to get in the HQ and see inside MM.
> Or is black really within his range?
> > Can he rob color as well? If so, he could change the air to
> > black to blot out vision. But then, air is colorless, so can
> > you impart color to it?
>
> I'm not sure if there's a canonical answer. (Did he ever use his
> power on air, or glass, or anything of that sort?)
I'm not really sure of any of his appearances other than the capture of
the LSV, but there he used his power to turn everything (hard to define,
but he must've turned the air as well) black. And this was very similar
to Shady's power, as Night Girl was able to use the blackness to trigger
her strength.
--
Cranial Crusader dgh...@bellsouth.net
Ken Arromdee
Hal Shipman <h_sh...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>Do we know for a fact that Mon-El's serum contains green K, or is that
>>something something concocted for the sake of the story?
>Yep - established in the Adventure days, I think, but certainly by
>1970.
>I did just check the first two "cure" stories (Saturn Girl's temporary
>cure and B5's more permanent solution (48 hr duration) a few months
>later), and there's no mention in them.
>But is was definitely canon by the Action comics backups, as Mon-El
>refers to it in the Eltro Gand story (Action #384).
It also covered up a goof in the first Mon-El story (intentionally or not).
Superboy realizes Mon-El isn't Kryptonian when he exposes him to Kryptonite
while he's sleeping, with no effects.
But the Kryptonite was in a lead box. Which should have affected him.
You can explain away this goof by saying that Kryptonite had some sort of
anti-lead effect. Which makes it an obvious ingredient for the serum.
--
Ken Arromdee / arro...@rahul.net / http://www.rahul.net/arromdee
"There are some corners of the universe that have bred the most terrible
things, things which act against everything that we believe in. They must be
fought." --Dr. Who, "The Moonbase"
George Grattan
> In article <pt5sgusqm9ho6sv91...@4ax.com>,
> Hal Shipman <h_sh...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>> Do we know for a fact that Mon-El's serum contains green K, or is that
>>> something something concocted for the sake of the story?
>> Yep - established in the Adventure days, I think, but certainly by
>> 1970.
>> I did just check the first two "cure" stories (Saturn Girl's temporary
>> cure and B5's more permanent solution (48 hr duration) a few months
>> later), and there's no mention in them.
>> But is was definitely canon by the Action comics backups, as Mon-El
>> refers to it in the Eltro Gand story (Action #384).
>
> It also covered up a goof in the first Mon-El story (intentionally or not).
> Superboy realizes Mon-El isn't Kryptonian when he exposes him to Kryptonite
> while he's sleeping, with no effects.
Heh. Kal's gung-ho approach to the scientific method was always so charming.
Good thing he didn't suspect young Bruce Wayne was invulnerable the first
time they met- he'd have tested the hypothesis it by dropping him off a
cliff....
Sean MacDonald
news:Xns92307EBA16BE...@130.133.1.4...
>
> The whole "yellow sunlight gives
> powers, red sunlight takes them away" thing is pure comic book
> pseudoscience without the slightest justification in reality.
Here's a defense against this tactic, though: Shadow Lass
creates an area of darkness over the combat zone,
so that no sunlight of whatever color can get through.
I don't think Color Kid can deal with the darkness
field since I don't think he can make things invisible.
Of course, you'll probably just say that Color Kid
thought of that in advance and took down Shadow
Lass first... in addition to taking down Saturn Girl
first... etc, etc.
> And GL energy is probably
> up to shredding Drake's containment suit and/or holding him off.
Well, it may depend on the willpower of
the ring wielder, and I don't recall any
evidence to suggest that Color Kid
has any more will power than the
average person.
>Without his containment suit, he was usually treated
> as a helpless ball of anti-energy. He could move of his own
> accord, but not do much in the way of acting till he made his way
> back to another containment suit.
I bet he could fly over to Color Kid's hand and wrest
control over the power rings from him, with his
superior willpower.
> but I don't think he could pass through
> force fields.
Well, if Color Kid has a force field up
already, then Wildfire will just have
to state with a straight face that his
anti-energy is not only invisible, but
it is invisible yellow anti-energy (like
the invisible yellow force field that
the Shark once used).
--
-Sean MacDonald
"And did they get you to trade
Your heroes for ghosts?
Hot ashes for trees... hot air for a cool breeze...
Cold comfort for change..." -Pink Floyd
George Grattan
> "Michael S. Schiffer" <msch...@condor.depaul.edu> wrote in message
> news:Xns92307EBA16BE...@130.133.1.4...
>>
>> The whole "yellow sunlight gives
>> powers, red sunlight takes them away" thing is pure comic book
>> pseudoscience without the slightest justification in reality.
>
> Here's a defense against this tactic, though: Shadow Lass
> creates an area of darkness over the combat zone,
> so that no sunlight of whatever color can get through.
> I don't think Color Kid can deal with the darkness
> field since I don't think he can make things invisible.
Except we've seen Color Kid's powers work in space, on the darkness of the
void itself. Remember, his definition of "color" has precious little to do
with actual color, light, wavelengths, etc. He'd presumably just take
Shady's darkness and turn it white, or blue, or whatever. Think of him as a
one-man Photoshop- point and click. :-)
>
> Of course, you'll probably just say that Color Kid
> thought of that in advance and took down Shadow
> Lass first... in addition to taking down Saturn Girl
> first... etc, etc.
Well, he probably would- if we accept the terms of Mike's scenario. After
he'd obtained the GL rings, his first two Legion targets are Saturn Girl and
Jeckie, probably followed by Shady (just in case)- which puts him in the
right place to tackle Mon, as well, who would be his next target.
>
>
>> And GL energy is probably
>> up to shredding Drake's containment suit and/or holding him off.
>
> Well, it may depend on the willpower of
> the ring wielder, and I don't recall any
> evidence to suggest that Color Kid
> has any more will power than the
> average person.
Nor any less. Drake's suit was, at times, shredded by the right kind of
flying shrapnel. I'd think someone with up to 3600 GLC rings would be up to
that challenge. :-)
>
>
>> Without his containment suit, he was usually treated
>> as a helpless ball of anti-energy. He could move of his own
>> accord, but not do much in the way of acting till he made his way
>> back to another containment suit.
>
> I bet he could fly over to Color Kid's hand and wrest
> control over the power rings from him, with his
> superior willpower.
Possible, but we've got no particular evidence to indicate that Drake's
willpower is inherently stronger than CK's, do we? It's not really a fair
question, since we know so little about the latter fellow, but, presumably
this is what the multiple GLs who faced an insane Hal Jordan would have
done-- collectively-- if it were that easy. Or if the writer had wanted them
to. :-)
>
>
>> but I don't think he could pass through
>> force fields.
>
> Well, if Color Kid has a force field up
> already, then Wildfire will just have
> to state with a straight face that his
> anti-energy is not only invisible, but
> it is invisible yellow anti-energy (like
> the invisible yellow force field that
> the Shark once used).
Nah. First thing CK does after getting all the rings is to use his own
natural power to change everything he encounters from yellow to, oh,
midnight blue, since it's so much more flattering to the figure. :-)
Michael S. Schiffer
news:3d0f6748$1_...@news.teranews.com:
> "Michael S. Schiffer" <msch...@condor.depaul.edu> wrote in
> message news:Xns92307EBA16BE...@130.133.1.4...
>> The whole "yellow sunlight gives powers, red sunlight takes
>> them away" thing is pure comic book pseudoscience without the
>> slightest justification in reality.
> Here's a defense against this tactic, though: Shadow Lass
> creates an area of darkness over the combat zone,
> so that no sunlight of whatever color can get through.
Again, it all depends on the circumstances. Unless they know
they're about to get into a fight with Color Kid, there's no
reason to do that (especially since it makes life difficult for
the most of the rest of the Legionnaires). I'm assuming that
taking out the Kryptonian and the Daxamite are the *first* thing
CK does in beginning his attack (aside, perhaps, from some covert
method to get Saturn Girl and Sensor Girl out of the way), and
that he's taking advantage of surprise. If the Legion and Color
Kid are meeting at a prearranged location with full knowledge of
the others' intent, then odds are the Legion can beat him. They
have years of teamwork, the biggest, baddest collection of powers
this side of the Authority (and if they know enough to unlimber
the Miracle Machine, I'd give the Legion the edge against them),
and a twelfth level effector brain working to coordinate their
tactics. Color Kid has a gimmick-- a *good* gimmick, but a
gimmick.
But if CK is surprising them, then he should be able to take out
Superboy and Mon-El before Shady gets a chance to act. Red sun
exposure was generally instant, and the effects lasted until the
target was again exposed to yellow sunlight. (If Sun Boy can get
them out of the affected area, he can probably restore them, but
as long as he's in range, his radiations are going to be red as
well.)
> I don't think Color Kid can deal with the darkness
> field since I don't think he can make things invisible.
I don't think he can. He might be able to turn the darkness field
some other color, but it's still opaque.
> Of course, you'll probably just say that Color Kid
> thought of that in advance and took down Shadow
> Lass first... in addition to taking down Saturn Girl
> first... etc, etc.
Nah. I don't think that Color Kid could win in any conceivable
set of circumstances. Just that given the setup of the DCU, a
plausible sequence can be set up in which he could win-- which is
pretty impressive for someone who, in our world, would be
restricted to interior decorating.
(Is there *any* other Sub who could do as well? Infectious Lass,
maybe, if she had decent control over her powers. Anyone else?
How about Legionnaires?)
>> And GL energy is probably
>> up to shredding Drake's containment suit and/or holding him
>> off.
> Well, it may depend on the willpower of
> the ring wielder, and I don't recall any
> evidence to suggest that Color Kid
> has any more will power than the
> average person.
*How* long did he stay in the Subs? A man of lesser intensity of
purpose might have sought gainful employment at some point. :-)
>> Without his containment suit, he was usually treated as a
>> helpless ball of anti-energy. He could move of his own accord,
>> but not do much in the way of acting till he made his way back
>> to another containment suit.
> I bet he could fly over to Color Kid's hand and wrest
> control over the power rings from him, with his
> superior willpower.
I don't recall it's normally being possible to do that while a
ring was being wielded. Drake's knowledge of the powers and
limitations of GL rings is also pretty limited, since what with
the ban he's never even met one. He didn't generally try to take
over the Emerald Eye, or the Persuader's axe, so I'm not sure that
he'd be likely to try to take over Color Kid's ring(s). But I'm
willing to be persuaded.
>> but I don't think he could pass through
>> force fields.
> Well, if Color Kid has a force field up
> already
Anyone with a normal human body who picks a fight with the Legion
of fricking Super-Heroes *without* putting up a force-field,
assuming that the option is available, deserves what he gets. In
that case, Dawnstar flies at him at a speed unmatchable by a
human, unaffected by any mere visual blindness, and hits him in
the head with a rock. Game over.
, then Wildfire will just have
> to state with a straight face that his anti-energy is not only
> invisible, but it is invisible yellow anti-energy (like the
> invisible yellow force field that the Shark once used).
I think Brainy would have to suggest the use of infra-yellow--
Drake wouldn't figure it out on his own. (He took a while to twig
to the fact that his yellow energy was affecting the Guardian
clone in the GDS.)
(What, you thought I'd consider infra-yellow too silly? We're
talking about Color Kid, Master of Space here!)
George Grattan
>> Of course, you'll probably just say that Color Kid
>> thought of that in advance and took down Shadow
>> Lass first... in addition to taking down Saturn Girl
>> first... etc, etc.
>
> Well, he probably would- if we accept the terms of Mike's scenario. After
> he'd obtained the GL rings, his first two Legion targets are Saturn Girl and
> Jeckie, probably followed by Shady (just in case)- which puts him in the
> right place to tackle Mon, as well, who would be his next logical target.
>>
I should add that if *I* were Color...King (!)....in this scenario I'd have
a few other "must get early" targets in the 30th Century: you'd need to take
out anyone who could conceivably get to the Miracle Machine too fast for you
to stop them, so you'd get not only Mon and Wildfire early, but Jo (and Kal
or Kara if they were around, obviously) also. I'd really keep an eye out for
Dawny and T-Wolf, though, since they're both fast enough, and whereas the
former is smart enough to think of it on her own, the latter has enough dumb
luck to just stumble into it while running away really fast. :-)
Oh, and I'd also take out my old pal and teammate Infectious Lass as quickly
as possible. That girl is not someone to be trifled with-- let your guard
down for a second and you've lost.
And he'd probably be wise to take Nura out of the game secretly months
beforehand-- without making it look suspicious, 'cause if Reep started
investigating the jig's up--lest she be able to warn anyone, particularly
Mysa, who could then prepare appropriate counter-spells. That's going to be
the hardest part, actually: getting the thing in motion-- you've got to take
out Nura without implicating yourself, and get to the GLs without tipping
off the Guardians or (worse, imo) Rond Vidar too soon. If you're going
after 30th Century GL rings, that's presumably a little bit easier, due to
the circumstances, but if you're time travelling back to the 20th C (or some
other point), you've got to get that done without alerting Rond and/or
Brainy, to say nothing of the Trapper.
Hmmm. This bears more planning......
George Grattan
>
> Nah. I don't think that Color Kid could win in any conceivable
> set of circumstances. Just that given the setup of the DCU, a
> plausible sequence can be set up in which he could win-- which is
> pretty impressive for someone who, in our world, would be
> restricted to interior decorating.
>
> (Is there *any* other Sub who could do as well? Infectious Lass,
> maybe, if she had decent control over her powers. Anyone else?
> How about Legionnaires?)
Not a Legionnaire or a Sub (though, as you point out, with control, IL's a
bad-ass, and I think, with preparation time, that Mysa could beat even
Batman) but a Hero of Lallor: I always felt it a very good thing that
Duplicate Boy was both dim witted *and* on the side of the angels.
Of course, we all know where this is going to to end up, so let's just skip
to the chase: Duplicate Boy vs. Composite Superman. Winner faces Nemesis
Kid. :-)
Michael S. Schiffer
> on 6/18/02 1:35 PM, George Grattan at gra...@rcn.com wrote:
>...
> I should add that if *I* were Color...King (!)....in this
> scenario I'd have a few other "must get early" targets in the
> 30th Century: you'd need to take out anyone who could
> conceivably get to the Miracle Machine too fast for you to stop
> them,
Or wait till after Matter-Eater Lad has eaten it. During the
period in which the Miracle Machine is around, there's no real way
to get around it but to depend on the fact that the Legion pretty
almost never dared to use it. Note that Color Kid doesn't have to
kill anyone, and if he isn't a threat to life, they *probably*
won't use the MM against him just to prevent him from carving out
an empire or imprisoning dangerous Legionnaires in a Super-Stalag
of Space or something. The use of the Miracle Machine was
tantamount to admitting their own failure (and, arguably, the
writers'. :-) )
so you'd get not only Mon and Wildfire early, but Jo (and
> Kal or Kara if they were around, obviously) also. I'd really
> keep an eye out for Dawny and T-Wolf, though, since they're both
> fast enough, and whereas the former is smart enough to think of
> it on her own,
Maybe... Dawny never struck me as the brightest bulb on the
monitor board.
the latter has enough dumb luck to just stumble
> into it while running away really fast. :-)
> Oh, and I'd also take out my old pal and teammate Infectious
> Lass as quickly as possible. That girl is not someone to be
> trifled with-- let your guard down for a second and you've lost.
> And he'd probably be wise to take Nura out of the game secretly
> months beforehand-- without making it look suspicious, 'cause if
> Reep started investigating the jig's up--lest she be able to
> warn anyone, particularly Mysa, who could then prepare
> appropriate counter-spells. That's going to be the hardest
> part, actually: getting the thing in motion-- you've got to take
> out Nura without implicating yourself, and get to the GLs
> without tipping off the Guardians
How many times was Hal Jordan in serious trouble without the
Guardians intervening? They have a GLC so they don't *have* to
attend to every potential galactic tyrant themselves.
or (worse, imo) Rond Vidar too
> soon.
Rond is a problem-- especially since CK doesn't know about him.
But Rond doesn't want to blow his cover, either, and he has a lot
of faith in the Legion. Odds are he wouldn't intervene
until/unless the Legion lost a battle with a ring-armed CK.
If you're going after 30th Century GL rings, that's
> presumably a little bit easier, due to the circumstances, but if
> you're time travelling back to the 20th C (or some other point),
> you've got to get that done without alerting Rond and/or Brainy,
> to say nothing of the Trapper.
> Hmmm. This bears more planning......
Or less. At some point, I think CK has to just trust to luck.
Nura's record for giving *useful*, *specific* prophesies is low
enough that it's probably safer to play the odds than to try to
take out even more Legionnaires by stealth without giving the game
away. (Even Imra and Jeckie may be too much. Though Universo
established that it's possible to take Imra out by surprise. Just
don't leave her conscious and unsupervised afterwards... :-) ) If
Nura hits the jackpot on this one, his best bet is to just flee to
the edge of space and just use his rings to gain wealth and power
far away from the Legion. But she's more likely to say "I saw one
man, alone, defeating us all-- and he was a friend!" without
knowing quite who it was, or what the circumstances were.
Michael S. Schiffer
> on 6/18/02 1:54 PM, Michael S. Schiffer at
> msch...@condor.depaul.edu wrote:
>...
>> (Is there *any* other Sub who could do as well? Infectious
>> Lass, maybe, if she had decent control over her powers. Anyone
>> else? How about Legionnaires?)
> Not a Legionnaire or a Sub (though, as you point out, with
> control, IL's a bad-ass, and I think, with preparation time,
> that Mysa could beat even Batman) but a Hero of Lallor: I
> always felt it a very good thing that Duplicate Boy was both dim
> witted *and* on the side of the angels.
Yep. (In my power-worshipping childhood, I thought that Duplicate
Boy was the coolest idea for a hero *ever*.)
> Of course, we all know where this is going to to end up, so
> let's just skip to the chase: Duplicate Boy vs. Composite
> Superman.
God-- clash of the none-too-bright titans. (The fact that each
could access 12th level effector thinking notwithstanding.) I'm
guessing that DB can win this one, since in principle he has access
to a wider array of powers. But really, it's a question of who
makes the first mistake. Either way, it won't take long. :-)
>Winner faces Nemesis Kid. :-)
So what happens when Duplicate Boy duplicates Nemesis Kid's powers
in the final bout? :-)
George Grattan
> George Grattan <gra...@rcn.com> wrote in
> news:B934EC5B.1B78B%gra...@rcn.com:
>
>> on 6/18/02 1:35 PM, George Grattan at gra...@rcn.com wrote:
>> ...
>> I should add that if *I* were Color...King (!)....in this
>> scenario I'd have a few other "must get early" targets in the
>> 30th Century: you'd need to take out anyone who could
>> conceivably get to the Miracle Machine too fast for you to stop
>> them,
>
> Or wait till after Matter-Eater Lad has eaten it. During the
> period in which the Miracle Machine is around, there's no real way
> to get around it but to depend on the fact that the Legion pretty
> almost never dared to use it. Note that Color Kid doesn't have to
> kill anyone, and if he isn't a threat to life, they *probably*
> won't use the MM against him just to prevent him from carving out
> an empire or imprisoning dangerous Legionnaires in a Super-Stalag
> of Space or something.
At a certain point, though, some of them (Dirk, Brin, Querl) would consider
the humiliation enough cause. By then, of course, it's too late.... :-)
> so you'd get not only Mon and Wildfire early, but Jo (and
>> Kal or Kara if they were around, obviously) also. I'd really
>> keep an eye out for Dawny and T-Wolf, though, since they're both
>> fast enough, and whereas the former is smart enough to think of
>> it on her own,
>
> Maybe... Dawny never struck me as the brightest bulb on the
> monitor board.
Dawny didn't have a subtle intellect, no. But she did often manage to grasp
the bloody obvious when the rest of them hadn't. She was practical--her
chief fault being that she was also overly prone to waiting for orders-- so
unless Brainy or someone told her to go get the MM early on, you'd probably
have a scene where, in Color King's prison, she's complaining to the rest of
them: "I was waiting for you fools to tell me to go get the Miracle
Machine..." :-)
True- besides, who'd believe her, anyway even if the vision was more
specific? I mean, really-- "Thom, Thom- I just had a dream that, um, Color
Kid is going to defeat us all! We've got to do something!" "Hah. Nura,
you're crazy. That's why I love you. Have some Silverale?" It's probably
better to run that risk than the risk of tipping off Cham by taking her out.
I'd still list Imra and Jeckie as early targets, though, since they're both
arguably able to stop him in his tracks (or allow others to do so) if they
get a decent shot- especially if Jeckie's at Sensor Girl levels.
George Grattan
> George Grattan <gra...@rcn.com> wrote in
> news:B934F0C8.1B79F%gra...@rcn.com:
>
>> on 6/18/02 1:54 PM, Michael S. Schiffer at
>> msch...@condor.depaul.edu wrote:
>> ...
>>> (Is there *any* other Sub who could do as well? Infectious
>>> Lass, maybe, if she had decent control over her powers. Anyone
>>> else? How about Legionnaires?)
>
>> Not a Legionnaire or a Sub (though, as you point out, with
>> control, IL's a bad-ass, and I think, with preparation time,
>> that Mysa could beat even Batman) but a Hero of Lallor: I
>> always felt it a very good thing that Duplicate Boy was both dim
>> witted *and* on the side of the angels.
>
> Yep. (In my power-worshipping childhood, I thought that Duplicate
> Boy was the coolest idea for a hero *ever*.)
>
>> Of course, we all know where this is going to to end up, so
>> let's just skip to the chase: Duplicate Boy vs. Composite
>> Superman.
>
> God-- clash of the none-too-bright titans. (The fact that each
> could access 12th level effector thinking notwithstanding.) I'm
> guessing that DB can win this one, since in principle he has access
> to a wider array of powers. But really, it's a question of who
> makes the first mistake. Either way, it won't take long. :-)
Truer words---we're talking about the guy who never bothered to write down
the trick about the lightning and the statues vs. the guy who was perceptive
enough to notice his girlfriend was being impersonated but stupid enough not
to mention it to anyone. Ambush Bug could beat these guys.
*Without* Cheeks at his side.
>
>> Winner faces Nemesis Kid. :-)
>
> So what happens when Duplicate Boy duplicates Nemesis Kid's powers
> in the final bout? :-)
"Give up." "No, you give." "No, you...."
At least it would keep them both occupied.
Sean MacDonald
news:Xns92307EBA16BE...@130.133.1.4...
>
> The whole "yellow sunlight gives
> powers, red sunlight takes them away" thing is pure comic book
> pseudoscience without the slightest justification in reality.
Here's a defense against this tactic, though: Shadow Lass
creates an area of darkness over the combat zone,
so that no sunlight of whatever color can get through.
I don't think Color Kid can deal with the darkness
field since I don't think he can make things invisible.
Of course, you'll probably just say that Color Kid
thought of that in advance and took down Shadow
Lass first... in addition to taking down Saturn Girl
first... etc, etc.
> And GL energy is probably
> up to shredding Drake's containment suit and/or holding him off.
Well, it may depend on the willpower of
the ring wielder, and I don't recall any
evidence to suggest that Color Kid
has any more will power than the
average person.
>Without his containment suit, he was usually treated
> as a helpless ball of anti-energy. He could move of his own
> accord, but not do much in the way of acting till he made his way
> back to another containment suit.
I bet he could fly over to Color Kid's hand and wrest
control over the power rings from him, with his
superior willpower.
> but I don't think he could pass through
> force fields.
Well, if Color Kid has a force field up
already, then Wildfire will just have
to state with a straight face that his
anti-energy is not only invisible, but
it is invisible yellow anti-energy (like
the invisible yellow force field that
the Shark once used).
Tom Galloway
George Grattan <gra...@rcn.com> wrote:
>Of course, we all know where this is going to to end up, so let's just skip
>to the chase: Duplicate Boy vs. Composite Superman. Winner faces Nemesis
>Kid. :-)
On the theory that the winner needs a light snack? Both Duplicate Boy and
the Composite Superman can emulate Carggites. As well as super-speed to
take out Nemesis Kid before he can teleport away from the multiple foes.
tyg t...@panix.com
Michael S. Schiffer
news:aeo29n$qj7$1...@panix3.panix.com:
But neither necessarily has the tactical sense to think of either.
(Nor the wit to emulate Brainy or Evolvo Lad in order to improve
said tactical sense.) Even Superman generally didn't use his
super-speed to its full potential. Is it likely that either of
these guys would?
George Grattan
Let's leave the Composite Superman out of it because A) he's an even bigger
dunce than Duplicate Boy and B) DB's powers are effectively the same or
greater.
So, DB vs. NK- aside from my previous (humorous) reply about how this would
come out-- I still think this is a "could God a make a rock so big He
couldn't lift it" situation. NK's power is to more or less instantly develop
whatever he needs to defeat any one foe, including, presumably, a foe who
has the ability to split into three foes.
Now, if DB were to split *before* taking on NK, then it's up to whether NK's
alchemic powers recognize that as one foe (albeit split into three) or three
actual foes, which I think is anyone's guess until Jeckie comes along and
snaps NK's neck anyway because she's just pissed off and royal enough to do
it. :-)
(Is there precedent for Lu taking down NK using her power? That would tend
to answer the question, I suppose...)
Tom Galloway
George Grattan <gra...@rcn.com> wrote:
>(Is there precedent for Lu taking down NK using her power? That would tend
>to answer the question, I suppose...)
Yep. First teenage Legion of Super-Villains story aka Gim's parents get
turned to glass and Timber Wolf and Chemical King get inducted. At the
end, a split Lu is shown taking down Nemesis Kid. Don't think it was
established whether she first faced off with him already split or solo
then splitting though.
tyg t...@panix.com
Steve Reed
> [...] Dawny never struck me as the brightest bulb on the
> monitor board.
Don't confuse a quiet demeanor with a lack of intelligence, please.
--
"... We all have wings, but some of us don't know why." -- INXS
Visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pteraphiles
Dale Hicks
msch...@condor.depaul.edu says...
> period in which the Miracle Machine is around, there's no real way
> to get around it but to depend on the fact that the Legion pretty
> almost never dared to use it.
That, and the fact that it's encased in enough inertron that it took both
Superboy and (Ultra Boy?) to smash open the case. Which is a good thing,
considering it starts working whenever you nudge it.
This means you can continue with your strategy of taking out the heavy
hitters first, but be sure to include Element Lad.
> so you'd get not only Mon and Wildfire early, but Jo (and
> > Kal or Kara if they were around, obviously) also. I'd really
> > keep an eye out for Dawny and T-Wolf, though, since they're both
> > fast enough, and whereas the former is smart enough to think of
> > it on her own,
Inertron casing again.
> Nura's record for giving *useful*, *specific* prophesies is low
> enough that it's probably safer to play the odds than to try to
> take out even more Legionnaires by stealth without giving the game
> away.
"I predict the entire Legion falling to someone, and the sky is colored
purple."
--
Cranial Crusader dgh...@bellsouth.net
Terence Chua
George Grattan <gra...@rcn.com> wrote:
>(Is there precedent for Lu taking down NK using her power? That would tend
>to answer the question, I suppose...)
Yes. He had his ass kicked by Duo Damsel in that Legion of
Super-Villains story where Gim was blackmailed into becoming a tutor at
the LSV Academy. So, no - Nemesis Kid can't adapt to more than one
opponent at once, even if the opponent's central shtick is duplication.
--
Terence Chua kh...@tim.org
WWW: http://www.khaosworks.org
KhaOS@TinyTIM: telnet://yay.tim.org:5440
"The meek shall inherit the earth. The rest of us will go to the stars."