Prufrock question
Richard P. Muller
I have a very basic question about T.S. Eliot's poem "The Love Song of
J. Alfred Prufrock." Namely, to what does the name in the title refer?
Am I supposed to recognize the name Prufrock as some literary
allusion, or is it just a random name? Does the name have some
relationship to the point of view of the speaker?
--
-Rick
Richard P. Muller, Ph.D. rmu...@invitro.usc.edu
Department of Chemistry 213-740-7671 Office
University of Southern California 213-740-2701 FAX
By doing just a little every day, I can gradually let the
task overwhelm me. -Ashleigh Brilliant
Lee/Nik Sandlin
Richard P. Muller <rmu...@invitro.usc.edu> wrote:
>
>I have a very basic question about T.S. Eliot's poem "The Love Song of
>J. Alfred Prufrock." Namely, to what does the name in the title refer?
>Am I supposed to recognize the name Prufrock as some literary
>allusion, or is it just a random name? Does the name have some
>relationship to the point of view of the speaker?
>
The name isn't a literary allusion (or if it is, nobody seems to have
found a source). It's intended to suggest a certain kind of bourgeois,
social-climbing pretentiousness -- we're supposed to be surprised that a
person bearing such a name even *has* a love song in him, much less the
one that follows.
L
Levi Asher
: >
: >I have a very basic question about T.S. Eliot's poem "The Love Song of
: >J. Alfred Prufrock." Namely, to what does the name in the title refer?
: >Am I supposed to recognize the name Prufrock as some literary
: >allusion, or is it just a random name? Does the name have some
: >relationship to the point of view of the speaker?
I remember hearing that there was a merchant of some sort in St. Louis (where
Eliot grew up) named Prufrock. I don't think it is supposed to allude to
anything specific, and Eliot probably chose the name for its memorable
inelegance.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"Way far back in the beginning of the world was the whirlwind warning
that we would all be blown away like chips and cry -- Men with tired
eyes realize it now, and wait to deform and decay -- with maybe they
have the power of love yet in their hearts just the same, I just don't
know what that word means anymore -- all I want is an ice cream cone"
-- Jack Kerouac, 'Desolation Angels'
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Rohaly
: In article <RMULLER.95...@invitro.usc.edu>,
: Richard P. Muller <rmu...@invitro.usc.edu> wrote:
: >
: >I have a very basic question about T.S. Eliot's poem "The Love Song of
: >J. Alfred Prufrock." Namely, to what does the name in the title refer?
: >Am I supposed to recognize the name Prufrock as some literary
: >allusion, or is it just a random name? Does the name have some
: >relationship to the point of view of the speaker?
: The name isn't a literary allusion (or if it is, nobody seems to have
: found a source). It's intended to suggest a certain kind of bourgeois,
: social-climbing pretentiousness -- we're supposed to be surprised that a
: person bearing such a name even *has* a love song in him, much less the
: one that follows.
: L
And the one that follows is kind of cruel, suggesting a noble strength
that isn't there at all.
Michael
Francis Muir
It's an allusion to a "Proof rock", which uses "prove" in its older
meaning of "test" (as in "The exception proves the rule", that is,
it tests the rule, not confirms it.)
Another, perhaps more palatable example:
"The proof of the pudding is in the eating."
Fido
Mike Schilling
:
: I have a very basic question about T.S. Eliot's poem "The Love Song of
: J. Alfred Prufrock." Namely, to what does the name in the title refer?
: Am I supposed to recognize the name Prufrock as some literary
: allusion, or is it just a random name? Does the name have some
: relationship to the point of view of the speaker?
:
meaning of "test" (as in "The exception proves the rule", that is,
he would test its strength by hitting it, flat down, against a rock
(the proof rock.) A sword which shattered under this test
was clearly unacceptable.
Now think of love as a sword.
Mike
Vance Maverick
> The name isn't a literary allusion (or if it is, nobody seems to have
> found a source).
Well, we do know where it came from -- a St. Louis shop window. (I'll
dig up the reference if people care: it's in Hugh Kenner someplace.)
> It's intended to suggest a certain kind of bourgeois,
> social-climbing pretentiousness -- we're supposed to be surprised
> that a person bearing such a name even *has* a love song in him,
> much less the one that follows.
Yup. There's a fine, if somewhat exhausting, discussion of this and
related issues in Christopher Ricks' _T.S. Eliot and Prejudice_.
Vance
Ted Samsel
: Mike Schilling writes:
: It's an allusion to a "Proof rock", which uses "prove" in its older
: meaning of "test" (as in "The exception proves the rule", that is,
: it tests the rule, not confirms it.)
: Another, perhaps more palatable example:
: "The proof of the pudding is in the eating."
The young Tom Eliot (played by Willem Dafoe) walked upon a beach
in the recent Lit-Flick TOM & VIV. I saw no peaches eaten.
--
Ted Samsel....tejas@infi.net
"In a dying culture, snobs are a vital natural race horse"
"El pobre Canonero, se va a matar"
Lee/Nik Sandlin
<mave...@cs.berkeley.edu> wrote: >In article <42inft$j...@flood.xnet.com>
san...@xnet.com (Lee/Nik Sandlin) writes:
>> The name isn't a literary
allusion (or if it is, nobody seems to have >> found a source).
>
>Well,
we do know where it came from -- a St. Louis shop window. (I'll >dig up
the reference if people care: it's in Hugh Kenner someplace.)
You're right; but in my own defense, I was responding only to the question
of whether there's some kind of buried literary allusion. The name
"Prufrock" comes from a St. Louis furniture dealer -- not the sort of
thing Eliot would expect anybody to know. Or so I hope.
L
Jim Willett
>In article <MAVERICK.9...@deodar.cs.berkeley.edu>, Vance >san...@xnet.com (Lee/Nik Sandlin) writes:
<snip>
The name
>"Prufrock" comes from a St. Louis furniture dealer -- not the sort of
>thing Eliot would expect anybody to know. Or so I hope.
>
>L
buried in his subconscious.
Vance Maverick
> san...@xnet.com (Lee/Nik Sandlin) wrote:
> >The name
> >"Prufrock" comes from a St. Louis furniture dealer -- not the sort of
> >thing Eliot would expect anybody to know. Or so I hope.
> But didn't Eliot originally come from Missouri? It may very well been
> buried in his subconscious.
I looked up the story -- Kenner retells it in _The Mechanic Muse_,
without attaching great credence to it. William S. Burroughs' mother
is supposed to have been with Eliot in St. Louis when they saw the
sign
You Get the Girl
Prufrock Does the Rest.
in a display window of the sort of furniture newlyweds would need to
furnish a house.
The implication is that the name was buried in Eliot's conscious....
Vance
Lee/Nik Sandlin
Mike Schilling <mi...@forte.com> wrote:
>Richard P. Muller (rmu...@invitro.usc.edu) wrote:
>:
>: I have a very basic question about T.S. Eliot's poem "The Love Song of
>: J. Alfred Prufrock." Namely, to what does the name in the title refer?
>: Am I supposed to recognize the name Prufrock as some literary
>: allusion, or is it just a random name? Does the name have some
>: relationship to the point of view of the speaker?
>:
>meaning of "test" (as in "The exception proves the rule", that is,
>he would test its strength by hitting it, flat down, against a rock
>(the proof rock.) A sword which shattered under this test
>was clearly unacceptable.
>
>Now think of love as a sword.
>
Not a chance. But it was certainly worth posting.
L
Mike Schilling
: : meaning of "test" (as in "The exception proves the rule", that is,
: : it tests the rule, not confirms it.)
: : Another, perhaps more palatable example:
:
: : "The proof of the pudding is in the eating."
:
: The young Tom Eliot (played by Willem Dafoe) walked upon a beach
: in the recent Lit-Flick TOM & VIV. I saw no peaches eaten.
He didn't dare.
Fiona Webster
especially the "proof rock" business and the bit about
William S. Burroughs' mother. I have a different, very
personal, take, though, on what "Prufrock" connotes. This
is not what the name "means" but what it means to one
reader: I think of "Pru" as the nickname for "Prudence"
combined with "frock" as a quaint name for a dress, and
then associate to a woman who is both sexually repressed
(implication of names like Prudence and Chastity) and
unconsciously sexy (the way your mouth makes a moue in
saying "Pru"), who is (for no good reason) flat-chested
and wears a rather prim floral frock. This association
layers into my impressions of the character of Prufrock
himself, making him (in my mind) even before he says a
word, seem both effeminate and someone who sends mixed
(by "mixed" I mean yes/no, not gay/straight) sexual signals.
Go figure.
--Fiona W.
JB
> Francis Muir (fra...@pangea.Stanford.EDU) wrote:
> : Mike Schilling writes:
>
> : It's an allusion to a "Proof rock", which uses "prove" in its older
> : meaning of "test" (as in "The exception proves the rule", that is,
> : it tests the rule, not confirms it.)
>
> : Another, perhaps more palatable example:
>
> : "The proof of the pudding is in the eating."
>
> The young Tom Eliot (played by Willem Dafoe) walked upon a beach
> in the recent Lit-Flick TOM & VIV. I saw no peaches eaten.
>
Ah, but did he wear his trousers rolled, and were the mermaids singing each to
each? And perhaps most importantly, did he seem overly concerned with women's
arm hair?
JB
Alan Scott - CIR
Mike Schilling <mi...@forte.com> wrote:
>Ted Samsel (te...@news.infi.net) wrote:
>: Francis Muir (fra...@pangea.Stanford.EDU) wrote:
>: : Mike Schilling writes:
>:
>: : It's an allusion to a "Proof rock", which uses "prove" in its older
>: : meaning of "test" (as in "The exception proves the rule", that is,
>: : it tests the rule, not confirms it.)
I understand that this isn't correct; however, I like this
interpretation and have had the temerity to use it to set excerpted
portions of Eliot's wonderful poem to music... (the first three stanzas, I
think [don't have it in front of me, worse luck] using the chorus, "In the
room the women come and go/Talking/Of Michelangelo."
Well, *I* like it.
>:
>: : Another, perhaps more palatable example:
>:
>: : "The proof of the pudding is in the eating."
>:
>: The young Tom Eliot (played by Willem Dafoe) walked upon a beach
>: in the recent Lit-Flick TOM & VIV. I saw no peaches eaten.
>
>He didn't dare.
Hee, hee.
--
Alan P. Scott
asc...@egreen.wednet.edu
CIR Help Desk Coordinator
DISK LAMER: These are my opinions.