Jane Eyre--Mr. Rochester's First Wife
Susan Carroll
I've just found out that there was a book written from Mr. Rochester's
first wife's point of view. Her name was Bertha Mason Rochester.
I've to the library and looked up all combinations of Bertha, Mason,
Rochester, attic, mad, Jane, Eyre, Bronte, and Charlotte, but with no
luck.
Does anyone out there know the title or author of this book? Has anyone
even heard of it?
Thanks for the help, Susan.
Alison Chaiken
Susan Carroll <scar...@nwlink.com> writes:
>I've just found out that there was a book written from Mr. Rochester's
>first wife's point of view. Her name was Bertha Mason Rochester.
That would be _The Wide Sargasso Sea_ by Jean Rhys. I originally read
this book at the recommendation of the novelist Carlos Fuentes, who
said it was one of his favorite books of all time. Fuentes praised
this work for its highly original depiction of the relation between
colonialism and the discovery of the self through the confrontation
with barbaric nature (or something like that; this was in a college
course in 1981 or so).
I liked this book a great deal, although I think it would not be
interesting to those who had not read _Jane Eyre_. In many ways it's
reminiscent of Faulkner's _Absalom, Absalom_, although to say more
would be to give away the plot.
Anyone read other good works by Rhys? I got a volume of her stories
out of the library once, but couldn't finish it.
--
Alison Chaiken ali...@wsrcc.com
(510) 422-7129 [daytime] http://www.wsrcc.com/alison/
I wrote that thesis so successfully . . . that now I am a physicist for D-O-E!
Kristin Abkemeier
Haven't read it, but I think the book you are thinking of is called
_Wide Sargasso Sea_. They made a movie of the same title four years ago,
too. As I recall from the review, it was indeed supposed to be about what
happened to Rochester when he was a young man in the West Indies.
Susan Carroll (scar...@nwlink.com) wrote:
> I've just found out that there was a book written from Mr. Rochester's
> first wife's point of view. Her name was Bertha Mason Rochester.
> I've to the library and looked up all combinations of Bertha, Mason,
> Rochester, attic, mad, Jane, Eyre, Bronte, and Charlotte, but with no
> luck.
> Does anyone out there know the title or author of this book? Has anyone
> even heard of it?
> Thanks for the help, Susan.
--
=========================================================================
Kristin Abkemeier (773) 702-1218 (voice)
Dept. of Physics and James Franck Institute (773) 702-5863 (FAX)
The University of Chicago ab...@fafnir.uchicago.edu
5640 S. Ellis Ave
Chicago, IL 60637 http://rainbow.uchicago.edu/~abke
=========================================================================
How I want a drink, alcoholic of course,
after the heavy lectures involving quantum mechanics...
Sigma Tau Delta
> I've just found out that there was a book written from Mr. Rochester's
> first wife's point of view. Her name was Bertha Mason Rochester.
>
> Does anyone out there know the title or author of this book? Has anyone
> even heard of it?
>
> Thanks for the help, Susan.
>
The book is called _Wide Sargasso Sea_ by Jean Rhys. I forget when it
was written, but the style is quite different from _Jane Eyre_, but
enlightening nonetheless on the aspect of colonialism in the West Indies,
along with the treatment of women of the time. It's pretty good, that
being my opinion.
Kim
Susie McCormick
I may not have the title exactly correct, but wasn't it THE
WIDE SARGASSO SEA?
Susie
David Christopher Swanson
ali...@dailyplanet.wsrcc.com writes:
> Susan Carroll <scar...@nwlink.com> writes:
> >I've just found out that there was a book written from Mr. Rochester's
> >first wife's point of view. Her name was Bertha Mason Rochester.
>
> this book at the recommendation of the novelist Carlos Fuentes, who
> said it was one of his favorite books of all time. Fuentes praised
> this work for its highly original depiction of the relation between
> colonialism and the discovery of the self through the confrontation
> with barbaric nature (or something like that; this was in a college
> course in 1981 or so).
>
> I liked this book a great deal, although I think it would not be
> interesting to those who had not read _Jane Eyre_. In many ways it's
> reminiscent of Faulkner's _Absalom, Absalom_, although to say more
> would be to give away the plot.
>
> Anyone read other good works by Rhys? I got a volume of her stories
> out of the library once, but couldn't finish it.
> --
> Alison Chaiken ali...@wsrcc.com
> (510) 422-7129 [daytime] http://www.wsrcc.com/alison/
> I wrote that thesis so successfully . . . that now I am a physicist for D-O-E!
Haven't read anything by her but certainly plan to now - though
I would much rather read any reminiscences of Fuentes you care
to share.
DCS
Alison Chaiken
alt.books.reviews removed since this is not a book review.
dc...@faraday.clas.Virginia.EDU (David Christopher Swanson) writes:
>Haven't read anything by her but certainly plan to now - though
>I would much rather read any reminiscences of Fuentes you care
>to share.
The course I took from Fuentes was an upper level course called
something like "The Idea of the New World." The theme was an
examination of the effect that the discovery of the New World had on
Europe, and the impact of the confrontation between "savage" native
peoples and "cultured" Europeans had on both cultures. Fuentes was
very interested to consider how the Aztecs comprehended the
conquistadores, and we read an Octavio Paz book about the long-term
influence of this historic confrontation on Mexican identity, "hijos
del chingado" and stuff. In addition we read the famous account of
Cortez' sojourn in Mexico by one of his foot-soldiers. I don't
remember the name of it although someone else undoubtedly will. It is
well worth reading, not heavy going at all.
We also read Fuentes' then just-published _Christopher Unborn_ and
also _The Wide Sargasso Sea_. I didn't like _Christopher Unborn_
much; it seemed gratuitously weird and full of self-conscious
stylistic devices. (Anyone wishing to read Fuentes should stick to
his earlier stuff, like the great _Death of Artemio Cruz_, and avoid
his newer stuff like _The Old Gringo_ at all costs.) I can't
remember the rest of the reading list.
I wrote a paper for this class about the 17th century colonial policy of
forbidding the natives to learn Spanish, a policy which was abrogated
by missionaries. Fuentes liked it a lot, so somewhere in a box I have
preserved it, with his handwritten comments on it. All in all it was
a great class: stimulating, and almost no work!
The subtext to the course was the amusing politics of the Dartmouth
College Spanish department. The female faculty thought the depiction
of women in Fuentes' books was insulting, and they could *barely*
bring themselves to speak to him.
Meanwhile during the semester that I took Fuentes' course, Mitterand
was elected President of France, the first time that the Socialists
had held power there for a long time. Fuentes held a big party to
celebrate this event at the house he was renting and we students in
his class were invited. There was champagne! There was a giant Brie
wheel! This was not like the other parties I attended in college!
Fuentes was excited because he expected to be named Mexico's
ambassador to France, which I believe he eventually was. He and
Mitterand were evidently personal friends.
Ted Samsel
Alison Chaiken (ali...@dailyplanet.wsrcc.com) wrote:
:
: The course I took from Fuentes was an upper level course called
: something like "The Idea of the New World." The theme was an
: examination of the effect that the discovery of the New World had on
: Europe, and the impact of the confrontation between "savage" native
: peoples and "cultured" Europeans had on both cultures. Fuentes was
: very interested to consider how the Aztecs comprehended the
: conquistadores, and we read an Octavio Paz book about the long-term
: influence of this historic confrontation on Mexican identity, "hijos
: del chingado" and stuff. In addition we read the famous account of
: Cortez' sojourn in Mexico by one of his foot-soldiers. I don't
: remember the name of it although someone else undoubtedly will. It is
: well worth reading, not heavy going at all.
It's by Bernal, if we are thinking of the same account. See also Gary
Jennings AZTEC.
:
: We also read Fuentes' then just-published _Christopher Unborn_ and
: also _The Wide Sargasso Sea_. I didn't like _Christopher Unborn_
: much; it seemed gratuitously weird and full of self-conscious
: stylistic devices. (Anyone wishing to read Fuentes should stick to
: his earlier stuff, like the great _Death of Artemio Cruz_, and avoid
: his newer stuff like _The Old Gringo_ at all costs.) I can't
: remember the rest of the reading list.
No TERRA NOSTRA?
:
: The subtext to the course was the amusing politics of the Dartmouth
: College Spanish department. The female faculty thought the depiction
: of women in Fuentes' books was insulting, and they could *barely*
: bring themselves to speak to him.
"He's Mexican, what do you expect?" (gratuitous line possibly from a
Peckinpaugh western....)
:
: Meanwhile during the semester that I took Fuentes' course, Mitterand
: was elected President of France, the first time that the Socialists
: had held power there for a long time. Fuentes held a big party to
: celebrate this event at the house he was renting and we students in
: his class were invited. There was champagne! There was a giant Brie
: wheel! This was not like the other parties I attended in college!
: Fuentes was excited because he expected to be named Mexico's
: ambassador to France, which I believe he eventually was. He and
: Mitterand were evidently personal friends.
Amusing, considering that one of the major images in some of his work
depicts El Lider in exile in Paris. Never Madrid. Always Paris.
Latin American professorials often throw decent festivities even if they
can scarce afford it.
--
Ted Samsel....tejas@infi.net
"do the boogie woogie in the South American way"
Rhumba Boogie- Hank Snow (1955)
Alison Chaiken
>Alison Chaiken (ali...@dailyplanet.wsrcc.com) wrote:
>: In addition we read the famous account of
>: Cortez' sojourn in Mexico by one of his foot-soldiers. I don't
>: remember the name of it although someone else undoubtedly will. It is
>: well worth reading, not heavy going at all.
Ted Samsel wrote:
>It's by Bernal, if we are thinking of the same account. See also Gary
>Jennings AZTEC.
Could it be Bernal Diaz del Castillo, or something like that? In
theory I should still have that book, although I don't see it on my
shelves. What is Jennings' book about?
>No TERRA NOSTRA?
Actually, now that you mention it, _Terra Nostra_ is the book we read
in the seminar Fuentes taught. It's much more apropos to the theme of
the course. I must have read _Christopher Unborn_ later.
>: The subtext to the course was the amusing politics of the Dartmouth
>: College Spanish department. The female faculty thought the depiction
>: of women in Fuentes' books was insulting, and they could *barely*
>: bring themselves to speak to him.
>"He's Mexican, what do you expect?" (gratuitous line possibly from a
>Peckinpaugh western....)
I could see what the female professors meant about Fuentes' books, but
I certainly didn't think they stood out in their negative portraiture
of women. You can find much worse without any trouble!
>: Fuentes was excited because he expected to be named Mexico's
>: ambassador to France, which I believe he eventually was. He and
>: Mitterand were evidently personal friends.
>Amusing, considering that one of the major images in some of his work
>depicts El Lider in exile in Paris. Never Madrid. Always Paris.
Fuentes has scarcely lived in Mexico, as you may know. His father was
a diplomat, and he mostly grew up in the US. He lived for a while in
France if I'm not mistaken. So Fuentes is in the great tradition of
novelists who write about "home" from abroad.
Alison Chaiken
>Alison Chaiken <ali...@dailyplanet.wsrcc.com> wrote:
> The theme was an
>: examination of the effect that the discovery of the New World had on
>: Europe, and the impact of the confrontation between "savage" native
>: peoples and "cultured" Europeans had on both cultures.
the Robot Vegetable <v...@teleport.com> writes:
> This sounds a bit like a description of _Terra Nostra_, his
>a magnum opus, an examining of Spain cultural trauma in removing
>the Moor, excoriating the heretic, and in chasing the gilded
>reflection in the alien mirror of the New World.
Yep, you and Ted are right, it was _Terra Nostra_ that we read as the
centerpiece for that course. But hey, it was the first Reagan
administration. Wasn't that a long time ago?
>_Christopher Unborn_ is like part two of _TDOAC_.
Thematically perhaps, but _Artemio Cruz_ is a pretty unadorned
passionate statement about the Mexican revolution, while _Terra
Nostra_ and _CU_ get pretty baroque in places. I think _AC_ is the
one great book Fuentes had in him. Sometimes it seems that authors
write their first novel for themselves, whereas afterwards they get
too concerned about what their fans and critics will think.
>: ... and we read an Octavio Paz book about the long-term
>: influence of this historic confrontation on Mexican identity, "hijos
>: del chingado" and stuff.
> What is the title of this book?
Hmm, I think that would be _A Draft of Shadows_, although my memory
for titles has not been good this week!
the Robot Vegetable
Alison Chaiken <ali...@dailyplanet.wsrcc.com> wrote:
: The course I took from Fuentes was an upper level course called
: examination of the effect that the discovery of the New World had on
: Europe, and the impact of the confrontation between "savage" native
: peoples and "cultured" Europeans had on both cultures.
This sounds a bit like a description of _Terra Nostra_, his
a magnum opus, an examining of Spain cultural trauma in removing
the Moor, excoriating the heretic, and in chasing the gilded
reflection in the alien mirror of the New World.
I have read this, _The Death of Artemio Cruz_, and _Christopher
Unborn_. I rate these last two as equals. _CU_ did not seem
: ... gratuitously weird and full of self-conscious stylistic devices.
to me, but then I'm partial to things that seem weird to many.
In some senses he is telling the same kind of story in these books,
the history of a country. _CU_ is like part two of _TDOAC_.
: ... and we read an Octavio Paz book about the long-term
: influence of this historic confrontation on Mexican identity, "hijos
: del chingado" and stuff.
What is the title of this book?
veg
Ted Samsel
Aren't Paz and Fuentes supposed to be at philosophical loggerheads? And
in public? Or is it Paz and Garcia Marquez?
dave robinson
Susan Carroll <scar...@nwlink.com> wrote in article
<32F144...@nwlink.com>...
> I've just found out that there was a book written from Mr. Rochester's
> first wife's point of view. Her name was Bertha Mason Rochester.
>yes the book is called Wide Sargasso Sea by Jean Rhys and very good it is
too. OK?
Phil Franks
Re: Jean Rhys,
Her books After Leaving Mr McKenzie, Good Morning Midnight and Voyage In
The Dark are all good, as well as the collections of short stories
Tigers Are Better Looking and Sleep It Off Lady - the last collection
contains my favourite short short story of all time "I Used To Live Here
Once".
She's a bit out of fashion because her heroine (singular) seems always
to be the victim, but I think she describes the world beautifully from
that angle.
Please read her.
P.S. And the excellent biograhy by Carole Angier.
--
Phil Franks - ph...@philfr.demon.co.uk
Local writers should take a look at Lichfield Writers' Homepage:
http://www.philfr.demon.co.uk/
Larisa Migachyov
Susan Carroll (scar...@nwlink.com) wrote:
: I've just found out that there was a book written from Mr. Rochester's
: first wife's point of view. Her name was Bertha Mason Rochester.
: I've to the library and looked up all combinations of Bertha, Mason,
: Rochester, attic, mad, Jane, Eyre, Bronte, and Charlotte, but with no
: luck.
: Does anyone out there know the title or author of this book? Has anyone
: even heard of it?
It's "The Wide Sargasso Sea" by Jean Rhys.
Larisa
paschal
And a strange and beautiful book; one of my favorites. I waited eagerly
for the film version which came out a few years ago; but except for some
nice parts, I thought it was a lousy treatment.
-Paschal
(still looking for film versions of books that are as good as those
done of Farley Mowat's _Never Cry Wolf_, or Bradbury's _Martian
Chronicles_...)
Alison Chaiken
>Alison wrote:
>> All in all it was a great class: stimulating, and almost no work!
>David replied
>>Not sure I like the no work part...
f...@oceanstar.comDeleteThis (Fiona Webster) writes:
>Aw come on, David, everyone knows that humanities courses are like
>zero work compared to science courses.
Fiona's right again; the Spanish courses were a pleasant contrast from
the courses which had a weekly lab segment and had a homework
assignment due every week. By "no work" I didn't mean that we didn't
do a hell of a lot of reading; I just meant that I have never really
considered reading work!
>ali...@dailyplanet.wsrcc.com (Alison Chaiken) writes:
>> I wrote a paper for this class about the 17th century colonial policy of
>> forbidding the natives to learn Spanish, a policy which was abrogated
>> by missionaries. Fuentes liked it a lot, so somewhere in a box I have
>> preserved it, with his handwritten comments on it. All in all it was
>> a great class: stimulating, and almost no work!
David writes:
>I would like to see your paper
>(with comments). And thanks for the info. But what I really wanted to
>know was how sharp he was, how fast he thought, what moods he had, what
>mannerisms. THAT sort of stuff.
I'd be happy to mail you a photocopy if I knew where it was! Perhaps
lost in a previous move, or in with my PhD diploma ;-) My impressions
of Fuentes were that he was very charming and urbane, but that it cost
him some effort to be so. In other words, it appeared to me that it
mattered a lot to him to be a man of the world, and that he put a
great deal of effort into being nattily dressed, multilingual and
well-informed. His lectures were quite engrossing, just the sort of
thing you'd hope for from a good novelist. I could easily see why the
female English faculty hated him; there's something about attractive
men who *know* it that makes you want to smack them.
At the very beginning of the course, he asked us as a group (there
were about a dozen) whether we'd prefer to be lectured to in English
or in Spanish. About 2 students raised their hands for Spanish and
about 2 for English. "Fine," he said, "we'll have lectures in
English," clearly the language in which he was more comfortable.
Ob book: _The Death of Artemio Cruz_ is well worth reading. It's the
best novel about the Mexican revolution as far as I know. To call it
the Mexican _Doctor Zhivago_ might be a bit of a stretch, but not much
of one. The main romance more recalls _The People vs. Larry Flynt_,
though. That's what set the feminist professors' teeth on edge.
Meg Worley
Teodito escribe:
>Aren't Paz and Fuentes supposed to be at philosophical loggerheads? And
>in public? Or is it Paz and Garcia Marquez?
Could you be thinking of Garcia Marquez & Vargas Llosa?
Their disagreements have been well aired over the years,
and the world was entertained by a slugfest in front of
a Paris cinema (as I recall) a few years ago.
Rage away,
meg
--
m...@steam.stanford.edu Comparatively Literate
David Christopher Swanson
In article <5cvv18$fcf$1...@capsicum.wsrcc.com>
ali...@dailyplanet.wsrcc.com (Alison Chaiken) writes:
> I wrote a paper for this class about the 17th century colonial policy of
> forbidding the natives to learn Spanish, a policy which was abrogated
> by missionaries. Fuentes liked it a lot, so somewhere in a box I have
> preserved it, with his handwritten comments on it. All in all it was
> a great class: stimulating, and almost no work!
Not sure I like the no work part, but I would like to see your paper
(with comments). And thanks for the info. But what I really wanted to
know was how sharp he was, how fast he thought, what moods he had, what
mannerisms. THAT sort of stuff.
DCS
Fiona Webster
Alison wrote:
> All in all it was a great class: stimulating, and almost no work!
David replied
>Not sure I like the no work part...
Aw come on, David, everyone knows that humanities courses are like
zero work compared to science courses. That's why we science majors
*take* humanities courses -- for a break!
--smiling, but not kidding,
Fiona
David Christopher Swanson
In article <5d3u3r$q6$1...@capsicum.wsrcc.com>
ali...@dailyplanet.wsrcc.com (Alison Chaiken) writes:
> >Alison wrote:
> >> All in all it was a great class: stimulating, and almost no work!
>
> >David replied
> >>Not sure I like the no work part...
>
> f...@oceanstar.comDeleteThis (Fiona Webster) writes:
> >Aw come on, David, everyone knows that humanities courses are like
> >zero work compared to science courses.
>
> Fiona's right again; the Spanish courses were a pleasant contrast from
> the courses which had a weekly lab segment and had a homework
> assignment due every week. By "no work" I didn't mean that we didn't
> do a hell of a lot of reading; I just meant that I have never really
> considered reading work!
The English language, it would seem, is to blame. Couldn't we perhaps
distinguish between work and drudgery, the former encompassing the
humanities and agricultural pursuits, and the latter consisting of the
sciences?
>
> >ali...@dailyplanet.wsrcc.com (Alison Chaiken) writes:
> >> I wrote a paper for this class about the 17th century colonial policy of
> >> forbidding the natives to learn Spanish, a policy which was abrogated
> >> by missionaries. Fuentes liked it a lot, so somewhere in a box I have
> >> preserved it, with his handwritten comments on it. All in all it was
> >> a great class: stimulating, and almost no work!
>
> David writes:
> >I would like to see your paper
> >(with comments). And thanks for the info. But what I really wanted to
> >know was how sharp he was, how fast he thought, what moods he had, what
> >mannerisms. THAT sort of stuff.
>
> I'd be happy to mail you a photocopy if I knew where it was! Perhaps
> lost in a previous move, or in with my PhD diploma ;-)
In WHAT with your PhD diploma?
My impressions
> of Fuentes were that he was very charming and urbane, but that it cost
> him some effort to be so. In other words, it appeared to me that it
> mattered a lot to him to be a man of the world, and that he put a
> great deal of effort into being nattily dressed, multilingual and
> well-informed. His lectures were quite engrossing, just the sort of
> thing you'd hope for from a good novelist. I could easily see why the
> female English faculty hated him; there's something about attractive
> men who *know* it that makes you want to smack them.
That's the kind of stuff I wanted to know (and the observation on
female psychology is an extra bonus, but seems an overgeneralization if
you ask me, though there's certainly something to it and an interesting
contrast with the opposite perspective).
>
> At the very beginning of the course, he asked us as a group (there
> were about a dozen) whether we'd prefer to be lectured to in English
> or in Spanish. About 2 students raised their hands for Spanish and
> about 2 for English. "Fine," he said, "we'll have lectures in
> English," clearly the language in which he was more comfortable.
>
> Ob book: _The Death of Artemio Cruz_ is well worth reading. It's the
> best novel about the Mexican revolution as far as I know. To call it
> the Mexican _Doctor Zhivago_ might be a bit of a stretch, but not much
> of one. The main romance more recalls _The People vs. Larry Flynt_,
> though. That's what set the feminist professors' teeth on edge.
Feminist professors teeth need to be SET on edge?
> --
> Alison Chaiken ali...@wsrcc.com
> (510) 422-7129 [daytime] http://www.wsrcc.com/alison/
> I wrote that thesis so successfully . . . that now I am a physicist for D-O-E!
DCS
Cassandra T. Marshall
dc...@faraday.clas.Virginia.EDU (David Christopher Swanson) wrote:
>ali...@dailyplanet.wsrcc.com writes:
>> Susan Carroll <scar...@nwlink.com> writes:
>> >I've just found out that there was a book written from Mr. Rochester's
>> >first wife's point of view. Her name was Bertha Mason Rochester.
>>
>> That would be _The Wide Sargasso Sea_ by Jean Rhys. I originally read
>> this book at the recommendation of the novelist Carlos Fuentes, who
>> said it was one of his favorite books of all time. Fuentes praised
>> this work for its highly original depiction of the relation between
>> colonialism and the discovery of the self through the confrontation
>> with barbaric nature (or something like that; this was in a college
>> course in 1981 or so).
>>
>> I liked this book a great deal, although I think it would not be
>> interesting to those who had not read _Jane Eyre_. In many ways it's
>> reminiscent of Faulkner's _Absalom, Absalom_, although to say more
>> would be to give away the plot.
>>
>> Anyone read other good works by Rhys? I got a volume of her stories
>> out of the library once, but couldn't finish it.
>> --
>> Alison Chaiken ali...@wsrcc.com
>> (510) 422-7129 [daytime] http://www.wsrcc.com/alison/
>> I wrote that thesis so successfully . . . that now I am a physicist for D-O-E!
>Haven't read anything by her but certainly plan to now - though
>I would much rather read any reminiscences of Fuentes you care
>to share.
>DCS
I read this book and enjoyed it vry much. It DOES have some
similarity to Absalom,Absalom (which I just finished). A great deal
of the power of this book comes from knowing the outcome of the story
( readng Jane Eyre) -- it certainly made me rethink Rochester and his
Jayne Eyre behavior.
Cassandra
John McCarthy
In article <5d433q$n...@Steam.Stanford.EDU> m...@Steam.Stanford.EDU (Meg Worley) writes:
> Teodito escribe:
> >Aren't Paz and Fuentes supposed to be at philosophical loggerheads? And
> >in public? Or is it Paz and Garcia Marquez?
>
> Could you be thinking of Garcia Marquez & Vargas Llosa?
> Their disagreements have been well aired over the years,
> and the world was entertained by a slugfest in front of
> a Paris cinema (as I recall) a few years ago.
>
>
> Rage away,
>
> meg
As a conservative, I would have been rooting for Vargas Llosa. How
did my boy do?
--
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/progress/
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.
Alison Chaiken
>Fi writes:
>>Aw come on, David, everyone knows that humanities courses are like
>>*take* humanities courses -- for a break!
m...@Steam.Stanford.EDU (Meg Worley) writes:
>Funny, that's how I felt about computer science courses as an
>undergrad. It was so simple & relaxing to solve a mere problem
>in a couple of hours, in comparison with writing 20-pp. papers
>that consumed my life.
The drudgery of problem sets due in every class just cannot be
compared to the drudgery of 20-page papers. It's the constancy of the
demand that wears you down with the problem sets; you have to work on
them *every* night if you want to finish them. Doing problem sets is
like having a blue-collar job, without the dirt, heat and grease (that
comes in graduate school).
With papers, you read all the background stuff over the weeks before
the assignment is due, and you meditate on it while you are washing
dishes or driving or running. Then when the paper is due, you read
something beautifully written for inspiration, something that stirs
the soul, and then you just hemorrhage the whole damn paper onto the
page at once. Writing papers is just opening a vein; you can do it
easily as long as you don't do it too often. Doing problem sets is
hard work! There is no easy way to learn subtle concepts, at least
for us ordinary people. It's the work, the work, it's the working
life.
Ob book: Right now I'm reading _Ordinary Money_ by Louis Jones. It's
about an unemployed housepainter and an unemployed carpenter who
unexpectedly come across a lot of counterfeit money, which changes
their lives. The mood is sort of Larry Brown, sort of Russell Banks,
and sort of Ann Beattie. Getting up and going to work every day is
not something these folks are good at, but they are fairly sympathetic
characters anyhow, and the book has moments of real humor.
Meg Worley
Fi writes:
>Aw come on, David, everyone knows that humanities courses are like
>zero work compared to science courses. That's why we science majors
>*take* humanities courses -- for a break!
>
Funny, that's how I felt about computer science courses as an
undergrad. It was so simple & relaxing to solve a mere problem
in a couple of hours, in comparison with writing 20-pp. papers
that consumed my life. I suspect this of being another iteration
of the greener-grass problem.
William Grosso
On 3 Feb 1997 22:46:15 -0500, mkag...@lynx.dac.neu.edu (Michael
Kagalenko) wrote:
>
> Now wait a second. There are still people out there who think that "computer
> science" is science ?
>
Well, there were people foolish enough to think so. But your
stunning demonstration of the converse, complete with convincing
arguments, witty rhetoric, and an extensive set of flip-charts (ala
Ross Perot), has made believers of us all.
Tune in again next week when Mike attempts to explain the
difference between NAFTA and NAMBLA.
Cheers,
Andy
"In the beginning, everything was even money"
--Mike Caro
FIDO
John McCarthy writes:
Meg Worley writes:
Teodito escribe:
Aren't Paz and Fuentes supposed to be at
philosophical loggerheads? And in public?
Or is it Paz and Garcia Marquez?
Could you be thinking of Garcia Marquez & Vargas
Llosa? Their disagreements have been well aired
over the years, and the world was entertained by
a slugfest in front of a Paris cinema (as I recall)
a few years ago.
As a conservative, I would have been rooting for Vargas
Llosa. How did my boy do?
Are there really Catalooney right-wingers? I am surprised
and delighted.
FIDO
Jeffrey A. Del Col
What a coincidence. Meg's attitude towards computer science is
very similar to that of a girl I dated way back in the
Pleistocene era of the 1960's. She took calculus as an easy
break from lit and French courses. I was amazed.
J. ( the mathphobic )Del Col
Ob books. Diderot --The Salon of 1767-- and Wallace's --The Malay
Archipelago.
--
Jeff Del Col * "Sleeplessness is like metaphysics.
A-B College * Be there."
Philippi, WV *
* ----Charles Simic----
Jim Hartley
Meg Worley (m...@Steam.Stanford.EDU) wrote:
> Fi writes:
> >Aw come on, David, everyone knows that humanities courses are like
> >zero work compared to science courses. That's why we science majors
> >*take* humanities courses -- for a break!
>
> undergrad. It was so simple & relaxing to solve a mere problem
> in a couple of hours, in comparison with writing 20-pp. papers
> that consumed my life. I suspect this of being another iteration
> of the greener-grass problem.
Yawn. I suppose this once again confirms that Economics is the Ultimate
Field of Study, since it seems to combine the best of both worlds--you
get to do lots of problem sets *and* write 20 page term papers. All
those other fields in which you do one *or* the other strike Economics
students as the easy stuff.
The Mandatory Book Reference: Helprin, _A Soldier of the Great War_
--
Jim Hartley
jhar...@mtholyoke.edu
Doug Turnbull
In article <5d7gcm$e...@news1.mtholyoke.edu>, jhar...@mtholyoke.edu (Jim
Hartley) wrote:
> Meg Worley (m...@Steam.Stanford.EDU) wrote:
> > Fi writes:
> > >Aw come on, David, everyone knows that humanities courses are like
> > >zero work compared to science courses. That's why we science majors
> > >*take* humanities courses -- for a break!
> >
> > Funny, that's how I felt about computer science courses as an
> > undergrad. It was so simple & relaxing to solve a mere problem
> > in a couple of hours, in comparison with writing 20-pp. papers
> > that consumed my life. I suspect this of being another iteration
> > of the greener-grass problem.
>
> Yawn. I suppose this once again confirms that Economics is the Ultimate
> Field of Study, since it seems to combine the best of both worlds--you
> get to do lots of problem sets *and* write 20 page term papers. All
> those other fields in which you do one *or* the other strike Economics
> students as the easy stuff.
Yeah, but science problem sets have a right answer. :)
For me, a lit class was a break just because it was something different.
But when I took 2 lit classes at once, it became more of a chore and less
of a holiday. I imagine if I'd been taking a full load of lit (or
whatever) classes, I would have enjoyed a science class as a nice break as
well. It really depends on what else you're doing- your third paper of the
week seems like more work than your first problem set, even if it really
isn't. How much time and effort an assignment seems to take is all
psychological (Obbook reference: _The Magic Mountain_ by Mann)
Doug Turnbull
sayan bhattacharyya
Meg Worley <m...@Steam.Stanford.EDU> wrote:
>Funny, that's how I felt about computer science courses as an
>undergrad. It was so simple & relaxing to solve a mere problem
>in a couple of hours, in comparison with writing 20-pp. papers
>that consumed my life.
Ah, but in the theory courses you can probably pull a Sokal in the
term paper and get away with it :-) In the hard sciences you can't.
Just kidding,
-Sayan.
Ted Samsel
FIDO (fra...@stanford.edu) wrote:
Wrong land mass. Vargas Llosa es peruano, Garcia Marquez es colombiano.
ObBook: HOMAGE TO CATATONIA
Richard Harter
br...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jeffrey A. Del Col) wrote:
>In a previous article, m...@Steam.Stanford.EDU (Meg Worley) says:
>>Fi writes:
>>>Aw come on, David, everyone knows that humanities courses are like
>>>zero work compared to science courses. That's why we science majors
>>>*take* humanities courses -- for a break!
>>>
>>> --smiling, but not kidding,
>>
>>Funny, that's how I felt about computer science courses as an
>>undergrad. It was so simple & relaxing to solve a mere problem
>>in a couple of hours, in comparison with writing 20-pp. papers
>>that consumed my life. I suspect this of being another iteration
>>of the greener-grass problem.
>>
>What a coincidence. Meg's attitude towards computer science is
>very similar to that of a girl I dated way back in the
>Pleistocene era of the 1960's. She took calculus as an easy
>break from lit and French courses. I was amazed.
All of that seems reasonable to me - I always appreciated math and
physics courses as ways to pile up lots of credits without doing much
work. It left plenty of time for things which I got many fewer
credits per hour of time invested.
The nice thing about problem sets is that all you have to do is work
out the answer. In the humanities one has to guess what the
instructor wants to hear. In the messy sciences (chemistry and the
life sciences) one has to learn so many bloody facts - you can't get
by reasoning and native aptitude.
Richard Harter, c...@tiac.net, The Concord Research Institute
URL = http://www.tiac.net/users/cri, phone = 1-508-369-3911
I'm a primatologist specializing in homo sapiens.
Their lack of true intelligence simplifies my studies.
David Christopher Swanson
In article <5d7djo$g...@alexander.INS.CWRU.Edu>
br...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jeffrey A. Del Col) writes:
> What a coincidence. Meg's attitude towards computer science is
> very similar to that of a girl I dated way back in the
> Pleistocene era of the 1960's. She took calculus as an easy
> break from lit and French courses. I was amazed.
Why?
Isn't it?
DCS
Uche Ogbuji
In <5d6be7$j...@lynx.dac.neu.edu>, mkag...@lynx.dac.neu.edu (Michael Kagalenko) writes:
> Now wait a second. There are still people out there who think that "computer
Then again, there are actually people who think that psychology
and economics are sciences.
--Uche, Computer Engineer
Uche Ogbuji
In <5d6f4e$r6t$1...@capsicum.wsrcc.com>, ali...@dailyplanet.wsrcc.com (Alison Chaiken) writes:
>Alison Chaiken ali...@wsrcc.com
>(510) 422-7129 [daytime] http://www.wsrcc.com/alison/
Hulloa! Phone number in a Usenet tagline??? What did Kagalenko say
about naifs?
vale, spero
--Uche
Dorai Sitaram
In article <5d5lb4$3vi$1...@gnews2.voicenet.com>,
Cassandra T. Marshall <cmar...@voicenet.com> wrote:
>I read this book ["Wide Sargasso Sea"] and enjoyed it vry much. It DOES have some
>similarity to Absalom,Absalom (which I just finished). A great deal
>of the power of this book comes from knowing the outcome of the story
>( readng Jane Eyre) -- it certainly made me rethink Rochester and his
>Jayne Eyre behavior.
Well, that's a charitable way of saying that Jean Rhys was
relying very heavily on Charlotte Bronte already having done
the tough work (creating the characters as well as earning
an audience). Rhys's own contribution consisted in adding
an easy, politically correct subversion.
--d
Meg Worley
I wrote, of Garcia Marquez & Vargas Llosa:
> > Their disagreements have been well aired over the years,
> > and the world was entertained by a slugfest in front of
> > a Paris cinema (as I recall) a few years ago.
John replies:
>As a conservative, I would have been rooting for Vargas Llosa. How
>did my boy do?
Um, I'm confused. Aren't you generally against folks taking
sides on the basis of political orientation rather than right
and wrong? Or is that only bad for sinister types?
The contretemps was, apparently, over a woman & certain
claims about who invented magic realism. Would you still
root for MVLL?
Irina Bondarenko
Richard Harter wrote:
>
> ... I always appreciated math and
> physics courses as ways to pile up lots of credits without doing much
> work.
Well la di da for you. Up to what level in math and physics did you
get, if I may ask?
> The nice thing about problem sets is that all you have to do is work
> out the answer.
Yeah, but that's only in the intro classes. When you get up to 200-300
level, easy repetitive problems are a thing of the past (at least in
comp.sci) and one spends days and countless sleepless nights in a
horrible basement of a 24 hour lab, consuming only coffee and stale
m&ms, all to get a preposterously humongous program to run (to say
nothing of all the discussion/coordinating hours if it's a group
project). You all are extraordinary if you're talking of having taken
advanced math and comp. sci. classes for fun. My humanities oriented
friends could generally manage a programming-for-fun type intro class
where they got to write easy 20 line programs to their hearts' content.
But I have yet to encounter anyone in the humanities who's taken even a
100 level class meant for math & science majors. Please enlighten me if
my circle of friends is not representative of the non-math'n'science
majoring community.
> In the humanities one has to guess what the
> instructor wants to hear. In the messy sciences (chemistry and the
> life sciences) one has to learn so many bloody facts - you can't get
> by reasoning and native aptitude.
>
Sometimes you get a really good prof though and then all bets are off.
--
-Irina.
David J. Loftus
Meg Worley (m...@Steam.Stanford.EDU) wrote:
: Funny, that's how I felt about computer science courses as an
: undergrad. It was so simple & relaxing to solve a mere problem
: in a couple of hours, in comparison with writing 20-pp. papers
: that consumed my life. I suspect this of being another iteration
: of the greener-grass problem.
And I with government courses. I got A's in my gov courses with Michael
Walzer and drove all my gov major friends green with envy, but of course
could never land an A in my major.
David Loftus
Gwen A Orel
Not to mention language and history courses. I'm currently pursuing
a doctorate in theatre arts, with a lot of Neo-Marxism and "performance
study." I have a specialty in Russian and East European culture
and it's very relaxing to learn names and dates. Graduate courses
in theatre include history but don't focus on it. That's what
comps are for!
Gwen
p.s. I do think however that writing "what an instructor wants to hear"
was not my experience as an English major. The only time anyone critiqued
a thesis of mine because it did not match a personal opinion was a grad
student t.a. in a freshman class. My instructors cared of course
that the thesis be supportable based on what we were learning, but
allowed and even encouraged me to think for myself or even argue with
them.
David J. Loftus (dl...@netcom.com) wrote:
: Meg Worley (m...@Steam.Stanford.EDU) wrote:
: David Loftus
--
"Live as one already dead." --Japanese saying
I live in fear of not being misunderstood.-- Oscar wilde
Gwen A Orel
I suspect that this is a selective subset of science majors who also
enjoy reading/do it for pleasure/have no trouble writing.
This discussion is happening on r.a.b., after all. I certainly knew
my share of highly intelligent engineers at Stanford who were very
troubled by philosophy not to mention the kind of subtle symbolism/
themes/style in English literature.
Gwen
Alison Chaiken (ali...@dailyplanet.wsrcc.com) wrote:
: >Fi writes:
: >>Aw come on, David, everyone knows that humanities courses are like
: >>zero work compared to science courses. That's why we science majors
: >>*take* humanities courses -- for a break!
: m...@Steam.Stanford.EDU (Meg Worley) writes:
: >Funny, that's how I felt about computer science courses as an
: >undergrad. It was so simple & relaxing to solve a mere problem
: >in a couple of hours, in comparison with writing 20-pp. papers
: >that consumed my life.
: The drudgery of problem sets due in every class just cannot be
: compared to the drudgery of 20-page papers. It's the constancy of the
: demand that wears you down with the problem sets; you have to work on
: them *every* night if you want to finish them. Doing problem sets is
: like having a blue-collar job, without the dirt, heat and grease (that
: comes in graduate school).
: With papers, you read all the background stuff over the weeks before
: the assignment is due, and you meditate on it while you are washing
: dishes or driving or running. Then when the paper is due, you read
: something beautifully written for inspiration, something that stirs
: the soul, and then you just hemorrhage the whole damn paper onto the
: page at once. Writing papers is just opening a vein; you can do it
: easily as long as you don't do it too often. Doing problem sets is
: hard work! There is no easy way to learn subtle concepts, at least
: for us ordinary people. It's the work, the work, it's the working
: life.
: Ob book: Right now I'm reading _Ordinary Money_ by Louis Jones. It's
: about an unemployed housepainter and an unemployed carpenter who
: unexpectedly come across a lot of counterfeit money, which changes
: their lives. The mood is sort of Larry Brown, sort of Russell Banks,
: and sort of Ann Beattie. Getting up and going to work every day is
: not something these folks are good at, but they are fairly sympathetic
: characters anyhow, and the book has moments of real humor.
: --
: Alison Chaiken ali...@wsrcc.com
: (510) 422-7129 [daytime] http://www.wsrcc.com/alison/
: I wrote that thesis so successfully . . . that now I am a physicist for D-O-E!
the Robot Vegetable
Meg Worley <m...@Steam.Stanford.EDU> wrote:
: I wrote, of Garcia Marquez & Vargas Llosa:
: The contretemps was, apparently, over a woman & certain
: claims about who invented magic realism. Would you still
: root for MVLL?
Which, if either, championed Alejo Carpentier?
Ted Samsel
the Robot Vegetable (v...@teleport.com) wrote:
GM looks like a pug. VLL has that patrician gachpin profile, a pretty
boy. What if we brought in El Chino (Fujimori) in as a ringer on this card?
moggin
Meg [re: Garcia Marquez & Vargas Llosa]:
>> > Their disagreements have been well aired over the years,
>> > and the world was entertained by a slugfest in front of
>> > a Paris cinema (as I recall) a few years ago.
John McC.:
>>As a conservative, I would have been rooting for Vargas Llosa.
>>How did my boy do?
Meg:
>Um, I'm confused. Aren't you generally against folks taking
>sides on the basis of political orientation rather than right
>and wrong? Or is that only bad for sinister types?
Or is it gauche, but only for gauchos?
-- moggin
moggin
Gwen:
>p.s. I do think however that writing "what an instructor wants to hear"
>was not my experience as an English major. The only time anyone critiqued
>a thesis of mine because it did not match a personal opinion was a grad
>student t.a. in a freshman class. My instructors cared of course
>that the thesis be supportable based on what we were learning, but
>allowed and even encouraged me to think for myself or even argue with
>them.
"Hardly anyone...will demand that your essay on Chaucer
or Baudelaire arrives inexorably at certain pre-set conclusions.
All that is being demanded is that you manipulate a particular
language in acceptable ways. Becoming certified by the state
as proficient in literary studies is a matter of being able to
talk and write in certain ways. It is this which is being
taught, examined and certified, not what you personally think or
believe, though what is thinkable will of course be constrained
by the language itself. You can think or believe whatever you
want, as long as you speak this particular language. Nobody is
especially concerned about what you say, with what extreme,
moderate, radical or conservative positions you adopt, provided
that they are compatible with, and can be articulated within a
specific form of discourse. It is just that certain meanings
and positions will not be articulable within it. Literary
studies, in other words, are a question of the signfier, not of
the signified. Those employed to teach you this form of
discourse will remember whether or not you were able to speak it
proficiently long after they have forgotten what you said.
Literary theorists, critics and teachers, then, are not so
much purveyors of doctrine as custodians of a discourse. Their
task is to preserve this discourse, extend and elaborate it as
necessary, defend it from other forms of discourse, initate
newcomers into it and determine whether or not they have
successfully mastered it."
(Terry Eagleton, _Literary Theory_)
-- moggin
John McCarthy
In article <5d8mo4$4...@Steam.Stanford.EDU> m...@Steam.Stanford.EDU (Meg Worley) writes:
>
> I wrote, of Garcia Marquez & Vargas Llosa:
> > > Their disagreements have been well aired over the years,
> > > and the world was entertained by a slugfest in front of
> > > a Paris cinema (as I recall) a few years ago.
>
> >As a conservative, I would have been rooting for Vargas Llosa. How
> >did my boy do?
>
> sides on the basis of political orientation rather than right
> and wrong? Or is that only bad for sinister types?
>
> claims about who invented magic realism. Would you still
> root for MVLL?
What good is a contest to a spectator who isn't rooting for one side
or the other; however trivial the reason for the preference. In this
case I have against Marquez for inflating about 10 killed in a labor
dispute to 3,000 - for purely artistic reasons, he said.
I have avoided disputes about women, though not always disputes with
women.
Russell Turpin
-*--------
In article <JMC.97Fe...@Steam.stanford.edu>,
John McCarthy <j...@cs.Stanford.EDU> wrote:
> What good is a contest to a spectator who isn't rooting for
> one side or the other; however trivial the reason for the
> preference. In this case I have against Marquez for inflating
> about 10 killed in a labor dispute to 3,000 - for purely
> artistic reasons, he said.
What is the impulse in us to treat a person accomplished in
writing fiction as if he were educated in areas requiring careful
thought? As much as I like Marquez's stories, knowing about him
only through his fiction, I see nothing that would lead me to
think him any more reasonable or accurate on politics, history,
or science than a stranger I meet in a bar. And if he turns out
to be unreasonable in these areas, should that change my view of
him?
Russell
--
I'd rather that a bigot mistake me for a lesbian than that a lesbian
mistake me for a bigot.
-- Tovah Hollander
Ron Hardin
Russell Turpin wrote:
> What is the impulse in us to treat a person accomplished in
> writing fiction as if he were educated in areas requiring careful
> thought?
It's a mystery.
--
Ron Hardin
r...@research.att.com
On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.
David Christopher Swanson
In article <5dadbr$l...@peaches.cs.utexas.edu>
tur...@cs.utexas.edu (Russell Turpin) writes:
> What is the impulse in us to treat a person accomplished in
> writing fiction as if he were educated in areas requiring careful
> thought? As much as I like Marquez's stories, knowing about him
> only through his fiction, I see nothing that would lead me to
> think him any more reasonable or accurate on politics, history,
> or science than a stranger I meet in a bar. And if he turns out
> to be unreasonable in these areas, should that change my view of
> him?
>
> Russell
ACCURACY again, for the love of God. What is this ACCURACY? What
would be a short ranking of accurate writers on politics?
DCS
Russell Turpin
-*--------
In article <5dadbr$l...@peaches.cs.utexas.edu>
tur...@cs.utexas.edu (Russell Turpin) writes:
>> What is the impulse in us to treat a person accomplished in
>> writing fiction as if he were educated in areas requiring careful
>> thought? As much as I like Marquez's stories, knowing about him
>> only through his fiction, I see nothing that would lead me to
>> think him any more reasonable or accurate on politics, history,
>> or science than a stranger I meet in a bar. And if he turns out
>> to be unreasonable in these areas, should that change my view of
>> him?
In article <E558H...@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>,
David Christopher Swanson <dc...@faraday.clas.virginia.edu> wrote:
> ACCURACY again, for the love of God. What is this ACCURACY? ...
Look back two posts for the relevant example, given by McCarthy.
Marquez claimed that 3,000 people were killed in a particular
political event. McCarthy claims that the number was an order
of magnitude less. At most one of these claims is accurate,
depending on the number of people who were killed.
Simple, no? Would you like a few more examples?
Accurate: Washington, DC, is near the East Coast.
Inaccurate: Washington, DC, is on the central plains.
Accurate: Bill Clinton is middle age.
Inaccurate: Bill Clinton is nine feet tall.
Does this help?
Doug Turnbull
In article <5d8lol$k...@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>, gao...@pitt.edu (Gwen A
Orel) wrote:
> I suspect that this is a selective subset of science majors who also
> enjoy reading/do it for pleasure/have no trouble writing.
> This discussion is happening on r.a.b., after all. I certainly knew
> my share of highly intelligent engineers at Stanford who were very
> troubled by philosophy not to mention the kind of subtle symbolism/
> themes/style in English literature.
>
I still remember some engineer standing up in my Intro to Philosophy
lecture and complaining about a thought experiment the lecturer was
describing. "But I don't see how it would be possible to do this
experiment," he said, and raised some objections to realizing the thought
experiment in the laboratory. I noticed several approving nods from other
members of the class. (Of course, I didn't do very well in that class
either, but that's a different story.)
Doug Turnbull
Paul Ilechko
Ted Samsel wrote:
>
> GM looks like a pug. VLL has that patrician gachpin profile, a pretty
> boy. What if we brought in El Chino (Fujimori) in as a ringer on this card?
>
> --
This is tough, because I prefer VLL's books, but GM's politics, so who
should I root for ?
Paul.
moggin
tur...@cs.utexas.edu (Russell Turpin):
>What is the impulse in us to treat a person accomplished in
>writing fiction as if he were educated in areas requiring
>careful thought?
That's just priceless.
-- moggin
Ted Samsel
moggin (mog...@mindspring.com) wrote:
: tur...@cs.utexas.edu (Russell Turpin):
Do I hear 20, bidaldollarbidadollabidadolla.....?
sayan bhattacharyya
Russell Turpin <tur...@cs.utexas.edu> wrote:
>Marquez claimed that 3,000 people were killed in a particular
>political event.
Did he make this claim in a novel, which is a work of fiction?
Or did he make this claim in a non-fiction article, presented
as fact?
If it is the former, is it not the privilege of the fiction-writer
to take it for granted that everyone understands that this is
fiction, not fact, and hence not to be taken at face value? Should
we deny fiction-writers this license?
If it is the latter, _then_ of course it is worthy of condemnation.
But only then.
John McCarthy
In article <moggin-ya0235800...@news.mindspring.com> mog...@mindspring.com (moggin) writes:
>
> tur...@cs.utexas.edu (Russell Turpin):
>
> >What is the impulse in us to treat a person accomplished in
> >writing fiction as if he were educated in areas requiring
> >careful thought?
>
> That's just priceless.
Someone expressed skepticism to Marquez about 3,000 people having been
killed in that dispute and asked him how many really were. If I
remember, he replied that it was 8 or 10, but having carload after
carload of bodies taken off by rail fitted the story better. That's
magic realism for you. Of course, having 3,000 killed fitted his
politics also.
William Grosso
On 6 Feb 1997 04:11:41 GMT, bhat...@krusty.eecs.umich.edu (sayan
bhattacharyya) wrote:
>
>Did he make this claim in a novel, which is a work of fiction?
>Or did he make this claim in a non-fiction article, presented
>as fact?
>
And this fiction/fact distinction is *so* clear cut.....
Side-quibble: "presented as fact" ? Surely, if we're talking about
blaming-the-author, then "perceived as factual" would be the
correct slant on things ?
Cheers,
Andy
"In the beginning, everything was even money"
--Mike Caro
Meg Worley
I wrote, of Garcia Marquez & Vargas Llosa:
>
>: claims about who invented magic realism. Would you still
>: root for MVLL?
Robotty writes:
> Which, if either, championed Alejo Carpentier?
If either GGM or MVLL has ever championed anyone besides
himself, there's a whole continent that would like to
hear about it.
Ted Samsel
John McCarthy (j...@Steam.stanford.edu) wrote:
: In article <moggin-ya0235800...@news.mindspring.com> mog...@mindspring.com (moggin) writes:
: >
: > tur...@cs.utexas.edu (Russell Turpin):
: >
: > >What is the impulse in us to treat a person accomplished in
: > >writing fiction as if he were educated in areas requiring
: > >careful thought?
: >
: > That's just priceless.
:
: Someone expressed skepticism to Marquez about 3,000 people having been
: killed in that dispute and asked him how many really were. If I
: remember, he replied that it was 8 or 10, but having carload after
: carload of bodies taken off by rail fitted the story better. That's
: magic realism for you. Of course, having 3,000 killed fitted his
: politics also.
Such jumps in orders of magnitude are common practice in folk literature.
As in songs about ships sinking or steam engines colliding. Goes with
the territory.
And since Marquez drinks deep at the well of "folk" idioms, this should
not be a problem in fiction.
Then there's tabloid journalism.
Ron Hardin
Ted Samsel wrote:
> Then there's tabloid journalism.
I hope you're not disparaging the Weekly World News, home of
the world's smallest whales (pic. aquarium with tiny whales),
Brazilian walking trees (escaped from lab and heading north),
and the Brazilian Needle Bird.
FIDO
John McCarthy writes:
What good is a contest to a spectator who isn't rooting
for one side or the other; however trivial the reason for
the preference. In this case I have against Marquez for
inflating about 10 killed in a labor dispute to 3,000 -
for purely artistic reasons, he said.
But this deception has none of the panache of the British TV
crew who wrapped themselves in bob wahr before filming a hungry
looking Croat ...
FIDO
David Christopher Swanson
What a jumble. What a crock. Imagine asking him to define this
"discourse" and explain what things are in and out and why, and why
they are "signifiers."
DCS
Ted Samsel
Ron Hardin (r...@research.att.com) wrote:
: Ted Samsel wrote:
: > Then there's tabloid journalism.
:
: I hope you're not disparaging the Weekly World News, home of
: the world's smallest whales (pic. aquarium with tiny whales),
: Brazilian walking trees (escaped from lab and heading north),
: and the Brazilian Needle Bird.
Nah. An old girlfriend of mine used to work for them.
Meg Worley
Pauli writes:
>This is tough, because I prefer VLL's books, but GM's politics, so who
>should I root for ?
Not tough at all. Root for John McCarthy in his next mud-wrasslin'
match with a woman.
moggin
tur...@cs.utexas.edu (Russell Turpin):
> > >What is the impulse in us to treat a person accomplished in
> > >writing fiction as if he were educated in areas requiring
> > >careful thought?
moggin:
> > That's just priceless.
John McC.:
>Someone expressed skepticism to Marquez about 3,000 people having been
>killed in that dispute and asked him how many really were. If I
>remember, he replied that it was 8 or 10, but having carload after
>carload of bodies taken off by rail fitted the story better. That's
>magic realism for you. Of course, having 3,000 killed fitted his
>politics also.
3,000? In _Indian Removal_, Grant Foreman estimates that
4,000 Cherokees died on the Trail of Tears. Emerson had already
written an open letter to Van Buren:
"...a crime is projected that confounds our understandings
by its magnitude, a crime that really deprives us as well as the
Cherokees of a country for how could we call the conspiracy that
should crush these poor Indians our government, or the land that
was cursed by their parting and dying imprecations our country
any more? You, sir, will bring down that renowned chair in
which you sit into infamy if your seal is set to this instrument
of perfidy; and the name of this nation, hitherto the sweet omen
of religion and liberty, will stink to the world."
-- moggin
P.S. That may or may not be the same dispute -- hard to
say, since you didn't bother to name the episode you were
talking about. But it can't matter, or else someone with your
concern for careful thinking would certainly have been more
specific.
moggin
David:
>What a jumble. What a crock. Imagine asking him to define this
>"discourse" and explain what things are in and out and why, and why
>they are "signifiers."
Remember how you told Uche half of his posts were
intelligent, and the other half read as if he had crawled
out from under a rock? And remember how Silke said that
for you, projection is a way of life? O.k. -- now try to
put two and two together.
-- moggin
moggin
"In a 1991 Pennsylvania case, Mark Cox, who was convicted
of 'insult' to the flag after tossing three of them into a
creek during a quarrel with his wife, was sentenced by Warren
County Judge Robert Wolfe to pay a $500 fine, to serve a jail
term of nine to twenty-three and a half months, and to write
an essay on 'The Man Without a Country,' a story about a man
who denounces the United States and is banished to spend the
rest of his life aboard ships on the high seas.
"Judge Wolfe told Cox that he would read the book report
to determine if writing it 'rehabitates your attitude toward
the flag.'"
(Robert Justin Goldstein)
-- moggin
moggin
Gwen:
>Basically, Eagleton is merely saying that it is the ability
>to create a good, coherant argument, well supporteed, that is
>judged, more than whether the conclusion "sits well" or not
>with the reader.
Nope -- his point is about what is or is not allowed
to qualify as "a good, coherent, well supported argument."
>Of course, "well supported" does mean that if holes in an
>argument are too easily made, the argument, however elegant,
>isn't a good one.
There's no "of course" about it -- that argument may
have been constructed like a net.
>Kind of like when it's obvious a defendant is guilty, but
>the lawyers simply haven't proved it.
It's more like when the lawyers are required to wear
a certain kind of wig.
-- moggin
moggin
Gwen:
a certain kind of wig and address the presiding idiot as
"Your Honor."
-- moggin
Irina Bondarenko
Ron Hardin wrote:
>
> Ted Samsel wrote:
> > Then there's tabloid journalism.
>
> I hope you're not disparaging the Weekly World News, home of
> the world's smallest whales (pic. aquarium with tiny whales),
> Brazilian walking trees (escaped from lab and heading north),
> and the Brazilian Needle Bird.
My favorite headlines -- "Identical Twins Separated At Birth Wed"
(involved one getting a sex change before the fateful meeting) and "Baby
Stabbed In The Head Lives" (pic. of an indifferent baby with a sketched
in dagger sticking out of its head).
--
-Irina.
David Christopher Swanson
tur...@cs.utexas.edu writes:
> -*--------
> In article <5dadbr$l...@peaches.cs.utexas.edu>
> tur...@cs.utexas.edu (Russell Turpin) writes:
> >> writing fiction as if he were educated in areas requiring careful
> >> only through his fiction, I see nothing that would lead me to
> >> think him any more reasonable or accurate on politics, history,
> >> or science than a stranger I meet in a bar. And if he turns out
> >> to be unreasonable in these areas, should that change my view of
> >> him?
>
> In article <E558H...@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>,
> David Christopher Swanson <dc...@faraday.clas.virginia.edu> wrote:
> > ACCURACY again, for the love of God. What is this ACCURACY? ...
>
> Look back two posts for the relevant example, given by McCarthy.
> of magnitude less. At most one of these claims is accurate,
> depending on the number of people who were killed.
>
> Simple, no? Would you like a few more examples?
>
> Accurate: Washington, DC, is near the East Coast.
> Inaccurate: Washington, DC, is on the central plains.
>
> Accurate: Bill Clinton is middle age.
> Inaccurate: Bill Clinton is nine feet tall.
>
> Does this help?
Oh yes. Thanks ever so much. How much do I owe you?
DS
Gwen A Orel
why is it a crock? It seems to me it's easy to make fun of
theoretical jargon, but folks, every discipline has jargon.
You say walk, I say cross. You say, turn the lights down,
I say, slow fade...
you say, signifier, I say, strategy.
Basically, Eagleton is merely saying that it is the ability
to create a good, coherant argument, well supporteed, that is
judged, more than whether the conclusion "sits well" or not
with the reader. Of course, "well supported" does mean that
if holes in an argument are too easily made, the argument,
however elegant, isn't a good one.
Kind of like when it's obvious a defendant is guilty, but
the lawyers simply haven't proved it.
Gwen
David Christopher Swanson (dc...@faraday.clas.virginia.edu) wrote:
: In article <moggin-ya0235800...@news.mindspring.com>
: mog...@mindspring.com (moggin) writes:
: What a jumble. What a crock. Imagine asking him to define this
: "discourse" and explain what things are in and out and why, and why
: they are "signifiers."
: DCS
: http://faraday.clas.virginia.edu/~dcs2e
--
"Live as one already dead." --Japanese saying
I live in fear of not being misunderstood.-- Oscar wilde
John McCarthy
Turpin may be accurate but is confused. All my information on the
even eventually comes from Marquez. Someone (not me) doubted to him
whether 3,000 people had been killed in a certain event - apparently
identifiable in the novel. Marquez said the number was 8-10 in fact
but that he made it 3,000 for artistic reasons. He said he like the
image of carloads of people being taken away. Perhaps it is relevant
that 3,000 strikers being killed agrees with Marquez's politics -
perhaps not.
Richard Harter
dc...@faraday.clas.Virginia.EDU (David Christopher Swanson) wrote:
>Oh yes. Thanks ever so much. How much do I owe you?
$499.95. But don't bother him with it. He's a very busy man. I can
take care of it for you. Just mail me the money in small unmarked
bills - add 5 cents for breakage. You may rest assured that he won't
bother you with bills if you let me handle the matter.
Richard Harter, c...@tiac.net, The Concord Research Institute
URL = http://www.tiac.net/users/cri, phone = 1-508-369-3911
I'm a primatologist specializing in homo sapiens.
Their lack of true intelligence simplifies my studies.
Jeff Inman
m...@Steam.Stanford.EDU (Meg Worley) writes:
>Not tough at all. Root for John McCarthy in his next mud-wrasslin'
>match with a woman.
How's his record?
--
"It wasn't bad. He was in only a little above the knees and sinking
very slowly. As soon as he saw me he stopped hollering and relit his
pipe. Help, he said, simply and quietly."
tamu.edu
Meg Worley (m...@Steam.Stanford.EDU) wrote:
: Fi writes:
: >Aw come on, David, everyone knows that humanities courses are like
: >zero work compared to science courses. That's why we science majors
: >*take* humanities courses -- for a break!
: Funny, that's how I felt about computer science courses as an
: undergrad. It was so simple & relaxing to solve a mere problem
: in a couple of hours, in comparison with writing 20-pp. papers
: that consumed my life. I suspect this of being another iteration
: of the greener-grass problem.
+---------------------------------SubG------------------------------------+
I tend to believe that virtually any field of study---and certainly
the form of it slopped out to undergrads---is capable of being at
some level less difficult than is typical in an arbitrary other
field of sufficient complexity.
While it is probably worth noting that the number of students which
migrate from `technical' fields to the liberal arts (with the apparent
proximate cause being the difficulty of the subject matter) is much higher
than those trodding lemminglike in the opposite direction, such an
observation should of course carry the following caveat: In the liberal
arts, the worse an inept pupil is apt to inflict upon society is
to become a teacher, and so damage the minds of a generation; in
a profession consequent to a technical field of study the bumbling
of an inept practitioner could result in, say, damage to
one's automobile. Professional standards, through which we find
employment prospects and thence student migratory patterns, of
course favour the former over the latter.
Yours etc.,
SubGenius
paschal
On Thu, 6 Feb 1997, moggin wrote:
> tur...@cs.utexas.edu (Russell Turpin):
>
> > > >What is the impulse in us to treat a person accomplished in
> > > >writing fiction as if he were educated in areas requiring
> > > >careful thought?
>
> moggin:
>
> > > That's just priceless.
>
> John McC.:
>
> >Someone expressed skepticism to Marquez about 3,000 people having been
> >killed in that dispute and asked him how many really were. If I
> >remember, he replied that it was 8 or 10, but having carload after
> >carload of bodies taken off by rail fitted the story better. That's
> >magic realism for you. Of course, having 3,000 killed fitted his
> >politics also.
>
> 3,000? In _Indian Removal_, Grant Foreman estimates that
> 4,000 Cherokees died on the Trail of Tears. Emerson had already
> written an open letter to Van Buren:
>
> "...a crime is projected that confounds our understandings
> by its magnitude, a crime that really deprives us as well as the
> Cherokees of a country for how could we call the conspiracy that
> should crush these poor Indians our government, or the land that
> was cursed by their parting and dying imprecations our country
> any more? You, sir, will bring down that renowned chair in
> which you sit into infamy if your seal is set to this instrument
> of perfidy; and the name of this nation, hitherto the sweet omen
> of religion and liberty, will stink to the world."
>
> -- moggin
This is off-topic, but can anyone tell me where the phrase "Trail of
Tears" first came from? I have a friend, part Cherokee and a Cherokee
historian, who claims the Cherokee never themselves used that phrase for
the "infamous removal" until long after the fact - and that it was
actually "born" in a romanticized book written much later by a woman
who, he claims, really didn't know her Cherokee history....I'm not sure
why he makes such a point of this, but it seems important to him...
ObBook: _Indian Justice_ , by John Howard Payne, ed. by Foreman
-Paschal
David Christopher Swanson
In article <5ddubr$e...@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>
gao...@pitt.edu (Gwen A Orel) writes:
> why is it a crock?
I think I did indicate very briefly why I thought it was a crock.
DCS
David Christopher Swanson
> David:
>
> >What a jumble. What a crock. Imagine asking him to define this
> >"discourse" and explain what things are in and out and why, and why
> >they are "signifiers."
>
> Remember how you told Uche half of his posts were
> intelligent, and the other half read as if he had crawled
> out from under a rock? And remember how Silke said that
> for you, projection is a way of life? O.k. -- now try to
> put two and two together.
>
> -- moggin
I'll take a stab at it. Um, Silke was under there too - no, wait,
Silke WAS the rock. Is that it?
Seriously, I haven't got a clue. I'm hoping your posting of that
nonsense didn't indicate you agreed with it. If so, you can tell me
why. If not, you can tell me what it is you want to say. Why do I
need to interpret your riddles? If the point is an insult (and if it
weren't you wouldn't be enlisting help, would you?) just say so, and
that's that - I'm not interested.
DCS
Ted Samsel
Meg Worley (m...@Steam.Stanford.EDU) wrote:
: Pauli writes:
: >This is tough, because I prefer VLL's books, but GM's politics, so who
: >should I root for ?
: Not tough at all. Root for John McCarthy in his next mud-wrasslin'
: match with a woman.
With all of the innundation in Las Califas, are the bouts out-of-doors
now? Or are they still importing truckloads of lateritic red-dirt
from Georgia & Alabam?
Champ Knecht
Dorai Sitaram wrote:
>
> In article <5d5lb4$3vi$1...@gnews2.voicenet.com>,
> Cassandra T. Marshall <cmar...@voicenet.com> wrote:
> >I read this book ["Wide Sargasso Sea"] and enjoyed it vry much. It DOES have some
> >similarity to Absalom,Absalom (which I just finished). A great deal
> >of the power of this book comes from knowing the outcome of the story
> >( readng Jane Eyre) -- it certainly made me rethink Rochester and his
> >Jayne Eyre behavior.
>
> Well, that's a charitable way of saying that Jean Rhys was
> relying very heavily on Charlotte Bronte already having done
> the tough work (creating the characters as well as earning
> an audience). Rhys's own contribution consisted in adding
> an easy, politically correct subversion.
Please. I suppose Shakespeare let someone else do all the tough work,
too, seeing as how so many of his characters were established elsewhere.
By the way, I may be wrong, but I'm not sure "politically correct" had
even been coined at the time Jean Rhys wrote "Wide Sargasso Sea". It
certainly wasn't the chi-chi putdown it is just now.
--
Champ R. Knecht
Sr. Technical Writer -- Design One Software, Inc.
"I try and do something each day. Work might not be exactly the word
for it."
-- Edward Gorey
moggin
David [re: Eagleton]:
>>>What a jumble. What a crock. Imagine asking him to define this
>>>"discourse" and explain what things are in and out and why, and why
>>>they are "signifiers."
moggin:
>> Remember how you told Uche half of his posts were
>>intelligent, and the other half read as if he had crawled
>>out from under a rock? And remember how Silke said that
>>for you, projection is a way of life? O.k. -- now try to
>>put two and two together.
David:
[...]
>Seriously, I haven't got a clue. I'm hoping your posting of that
>nonsense didn't indicate you agreed with it. If so, you can tell me
>why. If not, you can tell me what it is you want to say. Why do I
>need to interpret your riddles? If the point is an insult (and if it
>weren't you wouldn't be enlisting help, would you?) just say so, and
>that's that - I'm not interested.
I don't agree with everything that I quote, and it's
not often I agree with Eagleton -- but in this case he was
dead-on. I didn't mean to riddle you. I was saying that
you're victim to a certain inconsistency -- namely the one
you accused Uche of.
(More on Eagleton in the Eagleton thread.)
-- moggin
David Christopher Swanson
In article <5d6be7$j...@lynx.dac.neu.edu>
mkag...@lynx.dac.neu.edu (Michael Kagalenko) writes:
> Basket-weaving is probably even better.
Than science? Sure. Think about it. Which would you rather be
without, good basketweavers or good scientists? The choice seems
pretty clear to me.
DCS
"Emancipation from this language must be attempted. But not as an
ATTEMPT at emancipation from it, for this is impossible unless we
forget OUR history. Rather, as the dream of emancipation. Nor as
emancipation from it, which would be meaningless and would deprive us
of the light of meaning. Rather, as resistance to it, as far as is
possible. In any event, we must not abandon ourselves to this language
with the abandon which today characterizes the worst exhilaration of
the most nuanced structural formalism." JD
Bob Gore
On 7 Feb 1997, Ted Samsel wrote:
> Meg Worley (m...@Steam.Stanford.EDU) wrote:
> : Pauli writes:
> : >This is tough, because I prefer VLL's books, but GM's politics, so who
> : >should I root for ?
> :
> : Not tough at all. Root for John McCarthy in his next mud-wrasslin'
> : match with a woman.
>
> With all of the innundation in Las Califas, are the bouts out-of-doors
> now? Or are they still importing truckloads of lateritic red-dirt
> from Georgia & Alabam?
>
The rice fields in the Delta should be nicely awash by now- they
could have the matches there, a la Anna Magnani.
Bob Gore
Ron Hardin
Irina Bondarenko wrote:
> Yeah, but that's only in the intro classes. When you get up to 200-300
> level, easy repetitive problems are a thing of the past (at least in
> comp.sci) and one spends days and countless sleepless nights in a
> horrible basement of a 24 hour lab, consuming only coffee and stale
> m&ms, all to get a preposterously humongous program to run (to say
> nothing of all the discussion/coordinating hours if it's a group
> project). You all are extraordinary if you're talking of having taken
> advanced math and comp. sci. classes for fun. My humanities oriented
> friends could generally manage a programming-for-fun type intro class
> where they got to write easy 20 line programs to their hearts' content.
> But I have yet to encounter anyone in the humanities who's taken even a
> 100 level class meant for math & science majors. Please enlighten me if
> my circle of friends is not representative of the non-math'n'science
> majoring community.
An acquaintance quit to work on his garden, and then applied for a job
teaching computer science at the local university, to pass the seasons.
He quickly got an uneasy feeling in the interviews, making a chemical decision
when asked if he was going to go on for his PhD in comp. sci., which would
be necessary if he wanted to teach there. ``No,'' he said, ``PhDs are all
just memorization.'' The computer science professor puffed himself up
a little in his seat, and disagreed, ``Well, there's a little more to it
than that, I'm afraid.'' My acquaintance replied that, no, he knew lots
of PhD's and memorization was all it was, there was no question about it.
This fine puff joke of course cost him a free lunch. ``Well, it's been interesting
meeting you, Mr. ..., ...''
Richard Harter
Irina Bondarenko <iri...@attmail.com> wrote:
>Richard Harter wrote:
>>
>> ... I always appreciated math and
>> physics courses as ways to pile up lots of credits without doing much
>> work.
>Well la di da for you. Up to what level in math and physics did you
>get, if I may ask?
Indeed. Tra la la, I'm such a wonderful fellow I am. And so modest
too!
Physics minor, Math major. I started a PhD program in math and
dropped out. Actually I cheated - I studied the next years course
material on my own; when I took the courses for real it was like
taking a refresher course. This may well be unusual but it is very
effective. Once you are ahead of the game it's easy to stay ahead of
the game.
My college career was pretty random. I was a couple of courses short
of having a dramatics minor and a sociology minor. I am particularly
proud of having been on academic probation with straight A's (yes,
this can be done).
>> The nice thing about problem sets is that all you have to do is work
>> out the answer.
>Yeah, but that's only in the intro classes. When you get up to 200-300
>level, easy repetitive problems are a thing of the past (at least in
>comp.sci) and one spends days and countless sleepless nights in a
>horrible basement of a 24 hour lab, consuming only coffee and stale
>m&ms, all to get a preposterously humongous program to run (to say
>nothing of all the discussion/coordinating hours if it's a group
>project). You all are extraordinary if you're talking of having taken
>advanced math and comp. sci. classes for fun. My humanities oriented
>friends could generally manage a programming-for-fun type intro class
>where they got to write easy 20 line programs to their hearts' content.
>But I have yet to encounter anyone in the humanities who's taken even a
>100 level class meant for math & science majors. Please enlighten me if
>my circle of friends is not representative of the non-math'n'science
>majoring community.
Oh, comp-sci. We didn't have comp-sci when I was in college.
Programming courses are as bad as the messy sciences. Worse, in fact,
because not only do they consume large quantities of time, the usual
outcome is that they teach bad programming practices. Your remarks
about 20 line programs versus serious programming are quite to the
point. However spending days and countless sleepless nights in crummy
conditions are part of the normal working conditions for programmers;
the cynical would say that they deserve no better and wouldn't notice
the difference anyway.
I wasn't extraordinary for taking math and physics courses for fun -
given that I was a math major. That is normal for math majors.
They're an odd lot; they think that math is fun. In a general way,
though, math is easy *if you really understand the material* in that
problems posed usually have simple solutions if you go about them
correctly. It's a different matter in engineering courses - quite
frequently you are handed problems that require a lot of grundge work.
As to your circle of friends being representative I'm sure I can't say
but I suspect it's fairly normal. On the other hand I've known a lot
of people who were humanities majors and who ended up being computer
types, who even took real science and math courses. I suspect that
there is a lot of selection going on here. I know a lot of people in
the software field; they tend to be quite eclectic and a lot of them
were humanities majors. However I doubt that they are representative
of humanities majors in general.
Still and all, I opine that the educational system short changes
humanities majors. Science and math may be hard if you don't have the
requisite knacks but they aren't all that hard. People are
systematically told that math and science are too hard; they are fed
pablum and told that pablum is good enough for them. And they are
cheated thereby in the process. They are taught a formula for
failure, a formula that says "you can't do this", and are offered
rationalizations for being ignorant. More than that, they are
excluded from a major part of our culture.
It's a bloody shame, in my opinion. Your mileage may vary.
>> In the humanities one has to guess what the
>> instructor wants to hear. In the messy sciences (chemistry and the
>> life sciences) one has to learn so many bloody facts - you can't get
>> by reasoning and native aptitude.
>>
>Sometimes you get a really good prof though and then all bets are off.
True enough. It is a bit unfair to say that in the humanities one has
to guess what the instructor wants to hear.
Gwen A Orel
No, you didn't. You asserted that you disliked it and doubted
Eagleton's ability to explain his terms. In short, you evidenced
a prejudice against jargon, which is an easy, knee-jerk way
to dismiss an argument.
Gwen
David Christopher Swanson (dc...@faraday.clas.virginia.edu) wrote:
: In article <5ddubr$e...@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>
: http://faraday.clas.virginia.edu/~dcs2e
--
Dorai Sitaram
In article <32FB4A...@ri.cmu.edu>, Champ Knecht <ch...@ri.cmu.edu> wrote:
>Please. I suppose Shakespeare let someone else do all the tough work,
>too, seeing as how so many of his characters were established elsewhere.
>
>By the way, I may be wrong, but I'm not sure "politically correct" had
>even been coined at the time Jean Rhys wrote "Wide Sargasso Sea". It
>certainly wasn't the chi-chi putdown it is just now.
>--
>Champ R. Knecht
>Sr. Technical Writer -- Design One Software, Inc.
The term is undoubtedly recent. I don't see why I, in 1997,
shouldn't use it of an event in the past.
It is possible to read Shakespeare without ever reading
Plutarch. I am not so sure it is possible to read "Wide
Sargasso Sea" without reading "Jane Eyre". I am not saying
anything categorical here -- just mentioning my impressions
of a work of fiction, briefly. I welcome the opportunity to
be corrected, especially by writers such as yourself.
Politely and politically correctly,
--d
Meg Worley
Irina wrote:
>Yeah, but that's only in the intro classes. When you get up to 200-300
>level, easy repetitive problems are a thing of the past (at least in
>comp.sci) and one spends days and countless sleepless nights in a
>horrible basement of a 24 hour lab, consuming only coffee and stale
>m&ms, all to get a preposterously humongous program to run (to say
>nothing of all the discussion/coordinating hours if it's a group
>project). You all are extraordinary if you're talking of having taken
>advanced math and comp. sci. classes for fun.
'Extraordinarily *what*' is the real question, I think.
My humanities oriented
>friends could generally manage a programming-for-fun type intro class
>where they got to write easy 20 line programs to their hearts' content.
>But I have yet to encounter anyone in the humanities who's taken even a
>100 level class meant for math & science majors. Please enlighten me if
>my circle of friends is not representative of the non-math'n'science
>majoring community.
I don't know about the representivity of your circle of
friends, but I started out as a philosophy & comp lit
major and added the CS major just for fun. This, needless
to say, entitled taking senior-level programming classes,
which, as I posted earlier, were still a helluva lot easier
than their counterparts in the philosophy & comp lit depts.
I dunno, Irina... I think you need to hire a new circle of
humanities-weenie friends. "TCL/TK expertise a plus."
David Christopher Swanson
In article <5db3qp$q...@uni00nw.unity.ncsu.edu>
asda...@unity.ncsu.edu (Andrew S. "Gurk" Damick) writes:
> There genuinely are times when I have to seriously wonder if certain
> of our pomo/decon friends don't define themselves by one of these two
> expressions:
>
>
> 1. "What?"
>
> 2. "I don't know what you mean by that."
>
>
>
>
> --Gurk
What do you mean by defining oneself?
David Christopher Swanson
In article <5dh0ok$q...@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>
gao...@pitt.edu (Gwen A Orel) writes:
> No, you didn't. You asserted that you disliked it and doubted
> Eagleton's ability to explain his terms. In short, you evidenced
> a prejudice against jargon, which is an easy, knee-jerk way
> to dismiss an argument.
>
> Gwen
New here? One would have thought I'd defended enough jargon to doubt
E's ability to explain himself without my knees coming into the
discussion.
David Christopher Swanson
Back when the commie threat was greatest Houston schools banned books
about Robin Hood.
Gwen A Orel
David,
All I know is that on this thread you did *not* explain yourself.
Yu merely asserted an opinion. By the way, deconstructing a cliche
is a poor strategy for debate. I think you know what knee-jerk means.
Your response certainly looked like a knee-jerk dismissal to
me.
Certainly, anyone complaining about the very common (and I think, perfectly
clear) use of the terms "signifier" and "signfied" appears to be someone wth
a grudge against jargon.
Gwen
David Christopher Swanson (dc...@faraday.clas.virginia.edu) wrote:
: In article <5dh0ok$q...@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>
: gao...@pitt.edu (Gwen A Orel) writes:
: > No, you didn't. You asserted that you disliked it and doubted
: > Eagleton's ability to explain his terms. In short, you evidenced
: > a prejudice against jargon, which is an easy, knee-jerk way
: > to dismiss an argument.
: >
: > Gwen
: New here? One would have thought I'd defended enough jargon to doubt
: E's ability to explain himself without my knees coming into the
: discussion.
: DCS
: "Emancipation from this language must be attempted. But not as an
: ATTEMPT at emancipation from it, for this is impossible unless we
: forget OUR history. Rather, as the dream of emancipation. Nor as
: emancipation from it, which would be meaningless and would deprive us
: of the light of meaning. Rather, as resistance to it, as far as is
: possible. In any event, we must not abandon ourselves to this language
: with the abandon which today characterizes the worst exhilaration of
: the most nuanced structural formalism." JD
: http://faraday.clas.virginia.edu/~dcs2e
--
Marcy Thompson
My credentials:
Double major in math and philosophy, graduate-level work in both,
graduate degrees in math.
The hardest courses I ever took were in various philosophy departments
(plus a quantum mechaincs course). The hardest I ever saw *anyone* serious
struggle in a course was the case of three philosophy PhD students in a
rigorous but basic logic course.
This course was offered by a philosophy department (at UC Berkeley), but
could have been offered for major-level credit in any math department I
ever saw. (I don't understand why these PhD students hadn't had a decent
logic course as undergraduates, but believe me, they had not...)
I dunno what this all means, but I think it means that different people
find different stuff hard. I believe that *any* course is hard if you
have not assimilated the modes of thought being used in the course. And
once you have done so, then math is easier than philosophy, for me, anyway.
I know lots of humanities weenies who think proving theorems about
multi-modal logics is fun. More power to them.
Marcy
--
Marcy Thompson
home: ma...@squirrel.com (working again as of 1/1/1997)
work: m...@criinc.com (new as of 11/11/1996)
Usenet only: ma...@world.std.com (some things never change)
FIDO
Irina Bondarenko writes:
Ron Hardin writes:
Ted Samsel writes:
Some of their photos have achieved cult status. I particularly
like the one of Newt and an Alien sharing the platform. It just
seemed right. I suppose everyone understands that the headlines
are developed in a weekly meeting in a Miami bar between several
retired British newspaper men?
FIDO
Russell Turpin
-*---------
John McCarthy (j...@Steam.stanford.edu) wrote:
>> Someone expressed skepticism to Marquez about 3,000 people having been
>> killed in that dispute and asked him how many really were. If I
>> remember, he replied that it was 8 or 10, but having carload after
>> carload of bodies taken off by rail fitted the story better. That's
>> magic realism for you. Of course, having 3,000 killed fitted his
>> politics also.
In article <5dch82$2...@nw101.infi.net>, Ted Samsel <te...@infi.net> wrote:
> Such jumps in orders of magnitude are common practice in folk
> literature. As in songs about ships sinking or steam engines
> colliding. Goes with the territory. And since Marquez drinks
> deep at the well of "folk" idioms, this should not be a problem
> in fiction.
There is an interesting tension here.
On the one hand, I agree with Samsel. Works that are purposely
fictional should not be judged as if they were expository.
Novelists are not historians or scientists, and they typically do
not pretend to the same kind of intellectual discipline in their
work.
On the other hand, historical novelists explicitly try to present
a partially factual picture of the time and events they describe,
science fiction writers often try to work within known science in
developing their "what-if" stories, political novelists attempt
to persuade their readers' opinions of allegedly factual affairs
through fictional renderings of them, and the best novelists in
all genres are careful students of human character. Almost very
work of fiction has some aspects that are either intended to be
real or that are read as real.
It is legitimate, sometimes and in some things, to criticize a
fictional work for a failure in facticity where it is supposed
(on some account) to be real. A historical novel blunders when
it makes Aristotle and Nero contemporaries. A fictional account
of the Civil War should get its major events straight. Michener
should indeed work a little bit like a historian. Such
prescriptions depend on assumptions about the work. A Civil War
novel that presents an alternate history -- what might have
happened had the Confederacy won its independence -- must make a
large deviation from the actual course of events.
If a political novel persuades its readers that some actual event
exhibits significant characteristics that the event in fact
lacked, something is wrong. The readers have been deceived,
though it may not be clear where the blame lies. Did the author
deceive, by pretending to facts that were not? Or did the
readers fool themselves by foolishly assuming as factual
something that was only fiction, and only intended and presented
as fiction?
This can be a thorny issue, one that depends not only on the
text, but also on the context in which it is presented and read.
A third party may be at fault, for example, a history teacher who
assigns a novel for reading as if it presented an accurate
account of certain events. Going against the current widsom of
literary theory, I believe authorial intent is also important to
this issue, in as much as it helps set the context within which
the work is interpreted.
I do not know the Marquez story at issue, nor its context. But I
thought I would point out that while it takes more than pointing
out a factual mistake to blame a fictional writer for deceit,
neither are they completely and automatically blameless because
the work is "just" fiction.
Uche Ogbuji
In <5dir5d$s...@apollo0.Stanford.EDU>, mwo...@voyager.Stanford.EDU (Meg Worley) writes:
>I dunno, Irina... I think you need to hire a new circle of
>humanities-weenie friends. "TCL/TK expertise a plus."
Actually, I think the "TCL/TK" part is the "weenie" part.
A true *nixie won't even talk to anyone who drinks this pap.
He'd tell you to call him back when you add -lX to your
cc command line, or at least write a few anti-bloat hacks for
a subset of Motif widgets.
vale
--Uche
Ted Samsel
Russell Turpin (tur...@cs.utexas.edu) wrote:
: -*---------
: John McCarthy (j...@Steam.stanford.edu) wrote:
: >> Someone expressed skepticism to Marquez about 3,000 people having been
: >> killed in that dispute and asked him how many really were. If I
: >> remember, he replied that it was 8 or 10, but having carload after
: >> carload of bodies taken off by rail fitted the story better. That's
: >> magic realism for you. Of course, having 3,000 killed fitted his
: >> politics also.
:
: In article <5dch82$2...@nw101.infi.net>, Ted Samsel <te...@infi.net> wrote:
: > Such jumps in orders of magnitude are common practice in folk
: > literature. As in songs about ships sinking or steam engines
: > colliding. Goes with the territory. And since Marquez drinks
: > deep at the well of "folk" idioms, this should not be a problem
: > in fiction.
:
: There is an interesting tension here.
:
: On the one hand, I agree with Samsel. Works that are purposely
: fictional should not be judged as if they were expository.
: Novelists are not historians or scientists, and they typically do
: not pretend to the same kind of intellectual discipline in their
: work.
Garcia Marquez does practice that type of fiction known as "magical
realism". If he were more of a portrayer of "real life", he might well
deserve being taken to task for such disregard of the "ordure" of
magnitude.