A cute quote ;-)
Henry Churchyard
``If Lacan's "Ecrits" were not to many scholars' bookshelves what
the Spice Girls CD's are to the music collections of preteen girls,
Sokal and Bricmont's condemnation of Lacan's "superficial
erudition" would have little impact.''
-- http://www.salonmagazine.com/it/feature/1998/11/cov_02feature.html
--
Henry Churchyard http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~churchh/ || "In Mark's mind hardly
one rag of noble thought, either Christian or Pagan, had a secure lodging. His
education had been neither scientific nor classical. -- The severities both of
abstraction and of high human tradition had passed him by: and he had neither
peasant shrewdness nor aristocratic honour to help him." -- _THS_, C. S. Lewis
Jorn Barger
> ``If Lacan's "Ecrits" were not to many scholars' bookshelves what
> the Spice Girls CD's are to the music collections of preteen girls,
> Sokal and Bricmont's condemnation of Lacan's "superficial
> erudition" would have little impact.''
Sloppy analogy! The girls play those CDs endlessly, memorize everything
they can, and pattern their lives on their images of their heroines.
More like Philip Glass CDs, for adolescents.
--
I edit the Net: <URL:http://www.mcs.net/~jorn/html/weblogs/weblog.html>
"The real gem among his musings is the weblog, a detailed daily account
of Jorn's travels around the web. Watch a highly observant and
thoughtful web surfer at work." -- UK Guardian, 21 October 1998
Ted Samsel
: Henry Churchyard <chur...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu> wrote:
: > ``If Lacan's "Ecrits" were not to many scholars' bookshelves what
: > the Spice Girls CD's are to the music collections of preteen girls,
: > Sokal and Bricmont's condemnation of Lacan's "superficial
: > erudition" would have little impact.''
: Sloppy analogy! The girls play those CDs endlessly, memorize everything
: they can, and pattern their lives on their images of their heroines.
: More like Philip Glass CDs, for adolescents.
Why? Because they both have horrible bass lines?
ObLustItem: A cream colored real Fender Telecaster I played last night
that I can buy for $350. Woof, woof!
--
Ted Samsel....tejas@infi.net (or tbsa...@richmond.infi.net)
"do the boogie woogie in the South American way"
Rhumba Boogie- Hank Snow (1955)
David E Latane
On 10 Nov 1998, Ted Samsel wrote:
> Jorn Barger <jo...@mcs.com> wrote:
> : Henry Churchyard <chur...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu> wrote:
> : > ``If Lacan's "Ecrits" were not to many scholars' bookshelves what
> : > the Spice Girls CD's are to the music collections of preteen girls,
> : > Sokal and Bricmont's condemnation of Lacan's "superficial
> : > erudition" would have little impact.''
>
> : Sloppy analogy! The girls play those CDs endlessly, memorize everything
> : they can, and pattern their lives on their images of their heroines.
>
> : More like Philip Glass CDs, for adolescents.
>
> Why? Because they both have horrible bass lines?
>
What's that? about 2-lb. test?
D. Latane, plugging away
SubGenius
Ted Samsel (te...@sl001.infi.net) wrote:
: : More like Philip Glass CDs, for adolescents.
: Why? Because they both have horrible bass lines?
+---------------------------------SubG------------------------------------+
I think much of Philip Glass' work suffers at the hands of inept
interpretation by pretentious, underskilled performers.
I dig, say, the Kronos Quartet playing Glass.
+---------------------------------SubG------------------------------------+
: ObLustItem: A cream colored real Fender Telecaster I played last night
: that I can buy for $350. Woof, woof!
+---------------------------------SubG------------------------------------+
Teles are good for developing your guitar welt. None of those sissy
rounded edges like on a strat.
Yours etc.,
SubGenius
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Paul Ilechko
wrote:
>+---------------------------------SubG------------------------------------+
>I think much of Philip Glass' work suffers at the hands of inept
>interpretation by pretentious, underskilled performers.
>
>I dig, say, the Kronos Quartet playing Glass.
>+---------------------------------SubG------------------------------------+
I think much of Philip Glass's work suffers in comparison with that of
some of his alleged peers, such as Reich and Nyman.
Paul.
***************
Paul Ilechko
http://www.transarc.com/~pilechko/homepage.htm
hea...@scc.net
pile...@NOSPAM.transarc.com (Paul Ilechko) wrote:
> On 10 Nov 1998 13:52:09 -0600, su...@atheist.tamu.edu (SubGenius)
> wrote:
>
> >+---------------------------------SubG------------------------------------+
> >I think much of Philip Glass' work suffers at the hands of inept
> >interpretation by pretentious, underskilled performers.
> >
> >I dig, say, the Kronos Quartet playing Glass.
> >+---------------------------------SubG------------------------------------+
>
> I think much of Philip Glass's work suffers in comparison with that of
> some of his alleged peers, such as Reich and Nyman.
I think much of Philip Glass' work suffers from the basic problem that he
doesn't know what a "hook" is. Someone needs to strap him down and force him
to listen to James Brown for a few weeks. Afterwards they can re-expose him
to Beethoven, et al.
I was surprised to find that Glass is a friend of Peter Schickele's. He must
be more interesting than I've gauged from his music.
--
Heather Henderson
hea...@scc.net
http://scc.net/~heather
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
tejas
>
> In article <3648bb77...@newshost.transarc.com>,
> pile...@NOSPAM.transarc.com (Paul Ilechko) wrote:
> > On 10 Nov 1998 13:52:09 -0600, su...@atheist.tamu.edu (SubGenius)
> > wrote:
> >
> > >+---------------------------------SubG------------------------------------+
> > >I think much of Philip Glass' work suffers at the hands of inept
> > >interpretation by pretentious, underskilled performers.
> > >
> > >I dig, say, the Kronos Quartet playing Glass.
That might be palatable. My high school aged children were recently
"traumatized" by the soundtrack accompanying "Koaansquatski"(?) in the
past few weeks. The visuals were OK, but the audio.....
> > >+---------------------------------SubG------------------------------------+
> >
> > I think much of Philip Glass's work suffers in comparison with that of
> > some of his alleged peers, such as Reich and Nyman.
>
> I think much of Philip Glass' work suffers from the basic problem that he
> doesn't know what a "hook" is. Someone needs to strap him down and force him
> to listen to James Brown for a few weeks.
And George Clinton with a smattering of Stephen Foster and The Louvin
Brothers. Come to think of it, Charles Ives is fonkier than Phillip
Glass.
Afterwards they can re-expose him
> to Beethoven, et al.
>
> I was surprised to find that Glass is a friend of Peter Schickele's. He must
> be more interesting than I've gauged from his music.
Perhaps he's interesting because he moonlights as a cabbie.
--
TBSa...@richmond.infi.net (also te...@infi.net)
'Do the boogie woogie in the South American way'
Hank Snow THE RHUMBA BOOGIE
Michael S. Morris
On Kronos playing Philip Glass, Ted says:
That might be palatable. My high school aged
children were recently "traumatized" by the
soundtrack accompanying "Koaansquatski"(?)
in the past few weeks. The visuals were OK,
but the audio.....
Curious---the Kronos disc of String Quartets 2,3,4,5
brings me the closest to liking Glass, but Kronos
I think could bring me to like anything. "Music
in Twelve Parts" I find interesting---but by that
I mean listen to it once, for the experience of the
arabesque. Still I thought the integration of
his music into the film Koyaanisqatsi quite good. It
belongs. I've thought from that experience that
maybe his music has a place---fitting a certain
kind of cinematic program.
Mike Morris
(msmo...@netdirect.net)
maureen scobie
>
> In article <3649DB...@richmond.infi.net>,
> tbsa...@richmond.infi.net wrote:
>
> > My high school aged children were recently
> > "traumatized" by the soundtrack accompanying "Koaansquatski"(?) in the
> > past few weeks. The visuals were OK, but the audio.....
>
> you.
I wonder if this is anything like Robert McAlmon's performance of his
chinese opera? Years ago Stephen wrote a poetry book based on McAlmon's
life [ he was an American writer, in Paris in the twenties] called
_McAlmon's Chinese Opera_. Stephen's performance of McAlmon's
performance could clear the house!
Cheers,
Maureen
hea...@scc.net
> My high school aged children were recently
> "traumatized" by the soundtrack accompanying "Koaansquatski"(?) in the
> past few weeks. The visuals were OK, but the audio.....
Someday I'll do my "Koyannisqatsi" (I think that's the spelling) imitation for
you.
> Come to think of it, Charles Ives is fonkier than Phillip Glass.
Hell, Lawrence Welk is funkier than Philip Glass. "A one and a two-ah..."
> Perhaps he's interesting because he moonlights as a cabbie.
Does he?
Alan R. Light
I'm surprised to see such dislike for Philip Glass's music.
I'll admit it isn't the greatest stuff around, but I find it quite enjoyable
in reasonable doses.
The only thing I've noticed is that it all sounds the same after a while.
Generally speaking, there's nothing much about the modernist composers
that I don't like, it's just that's there not all that much about them
that I *do* like. I occasionally listen to a little John Adams,
Steven Reich, and Philip Glass, but am not inclined to listen to
more than a few of their works.
As opposed to, say, Borodin or Prokofiev, whose work I will always seek out,
even though Prokofiev wrote a few very boring pieces, or, more contemporary,
I am always willing to give John Williams (the composer) a chance.
Alan
--
-------a-l-i-g-h-t-@-v-n-e-t-.-n-e-t--------- http://users.vnet.net/alight
|This sentence is public domain -- you might|
|not be prosecuted or jailed for reading it.| Free etexts @ http://www.ipl.org
|* http://users.vnet.net/alight/liber.html *| http://www.cs.cmu.edu/books.html
tejas
>
> hea...@scc.net wrote:
> >
> > In article <3649DB...@richmond.infi.net>,
> > tbsa...@richmond.infi.net wrote:
> >
> > > My high school aged children were recently
> > > "traumatized" by the soundtrack accompanying "Koaansquatski"(?) in the
> > > past few weeks. The visuals were OK, but the audio.....
> >
> > Someday I'll do my "Koyannisqatsi" (I think that's the spelling) imitation for
> > you.
>
> chinese opera? Years ago Stephen wrote a poetry book based on McAlmon's
> life [ he was an American writer, in Paris in the twenties] called
> _McAlmon's Chinese Opera_. Stephen's performance of McAlmon's
> performance could clear the house!
Has he patented this schtick? It could be used to clear clubs at
closing time.
"Last call for alcohol!"
Jorn Barger
> I'm surprised to see such dislike for Philip Glass's music.
> The only thing I've noticed is that it all sounds the same after
> a while.
You misspelled "30 seconds".
Francis Muir
> Alan R. Light:
> > I'm surprised to see such dislike for Philip Glass's music.
> [...]
> > The only thing I've noticed is that it all sounds the same after
> > a while.
> ^^^^^^^
>
> You misspelled "30 seconds".
These statements are on a par with "all Chinamen look alike".
FM
hea...@scc.net
"Michael S. Morris" <msmo...@netdirect.net> wrote:
> the Kronos disc of String Quartets 2,3,4,5
> brings me the closest to liking Glass, but Kronos
> I think could bring me to like anything.
If you like strange string music, try the Finnish groups JPP and Troka -
strings/accordion/harmonium. Unearthly. I just discovered them recently and
am now addicted.
> I've thought from that experience that
> maybe his music has a place---fitting a certain
> kind of cinematic program.
Yes, I must admit his film music is OK.
Jorn Barger
> > > I'm surprised to see such dislike for Philip Glass's music.
> > [...]
> > > The only thing I've noticed is that it all sounds the same after
> > > a while.
> > ^^^^^^^
> > You misspelled "30 seconds".
>
> These statements are on a par with "all Chinamen look alike".
Sloppy analogy!
What percentage of Glass gets thru the first 30 seconds without
noticeably-above-average repetition, would you say?
I'll admit, though, that repetitiveness is the #1 flaw that makes me
change radio stations these days, so maybe I'm hyper. But I thought it
was mostly sequencer laziness (which wouldn't apply for Glass, would
it?).
(When the Spice Girls come on, I instinctively turn the radio _up_, I'll
admit, though I hear them so rarely I'm not OD'ed yet.)
They call me:
Deep Spice
Jorn Barger
> If you like strange string music, try the Finnish groups JPP and Troka -
> strings/accordion/harmonium. Unearthly. I just discovered them recently
> and am now addicted.
Have you heard Hedningarna? They add mindboggling female harmonies to
this mix, in a couple of songs anyway.
> > I've thought from that experience that
> > maybe his music has a place---fitting a certain
> > kind of cinematic program.
>
> Yes, I must admit his film music is OK.
Heh. Did you ever see Hamburger Hill???
Michael S. Morris
Francis wrote, regarding assertions about the
"sameness" of Philip Glass's music:
These statements are on a par with "all Chinamen
look alike".
Could you elaborate---maybe with examples of
Glass which you find different? To my ear,
"sameness" and repetitive pattern (though
with the arabesque effect of subtle variation
on that repitition) is characteristic of Glass's
music---and of all of it I can think of, including
the early major work "Music in Twelve Parts",
the string quartets (at least numbers 2-5), the
score to Koyaanisqatsi, "Itaipu", various Glass
organ works, and the "Heroes" Symphony. Different
people like it more or less, but seem to agree on
its sameness and repetition. You seem to suggest
that it is more varied than it seems. Can you
explain?
Mike Morris
(msmo...@netdirect.net)
David J. Loftus
: I'm surprised to see such dislike for Philip Glass's music.
It's an easy slam, for people in the mood to make one.
: I'll admit it isn't the greatest stuff around, but I find it quite
: enjoyable in reasonable doses.
I suspect all the people ragging on Glass have never seen him -- or the
music -- performed live. That helps a lot, as it does with Shakespeare
or many other genres of music.
: The only thing I've noticed is that it all sounds the same after a while.
There are not that many performers and genres about which this could not
be said. Stravinsky intimated as much about Vivaldi, for instance, and I
suspect a lot of people feel that way about most Baroque composers. I
did, once.
: Generally speaking, there's nothing much about the modernist composers
: that I don't like, it's just that's there not all that much about them
: that I *do* like. I occasionally listen to a little John Adams,
Adams I love. Again, it helps to hear the stuff live. It helps even
more to have performed it. I sang the Adams "Harmonium" a number of
years back -- it was the first time I'd even heard of the guy -- and I
found it an awesome piece of work. (He did tell our conductor that if he
had it to do again, he would not put in so many notes.)
: As opposed to, say, Borodin or Prokofiev, whose work I will always
: seek out, even though Prokofiev wrote a few very boring pieces, or,
: more contemporary, I am always willing to give John Williams (the
: composer) a chance.
Oh, hey, I LOVE his score for "The Cowboys." What's annoying is, every
time he conducts excerpts from it, I never hear them play the weird and
wobbly Bruce Dern theme.
David Loftus
David J. Loftus
: Jorn Barger:
: > Alan R. Light:
: > > I'm surprised to see such dislike for Philip Glass's music.
: > [...]
: > > The only thing I've noticed is that it all sounds the same after
: > > a while.
: > ^^^^^^^
: >
: > You misspelled "30 seconds".
: These statements are on a par with "all Chinamen look alike".
Quite.
We should not be surprised to hear someone chime in at this point and
say the same is true of most of Arvo Part's music, but it won't happen
because Part is sacrosanct.
David Loftus
David J. Loftus
: Francis Muir <fra...@stanford.edu> wrote:
: > These statements are on a par with "all Chinamen look alike".
: Sloppy analogy!
: What percentage of Glass gets thru the first 30 seconds without
: noticeably-above-average repetition, would you say?
Maybe you're missing part of the point when you listen for only 30
seconds. Maybe that's the aural equivalent of judging Proust on the
basis of a page or two.
: I'll admit, though, that repetitiveness is the #1 flaw that makes me
: change radio stations these days, so maybe I'm hyper. But I thought it
: was mostly sequencer laziness (which wouldn't apply for Glass, would
: it?).
Ah, that may be part of the problem. I don't turn to the radio for
music. What are you doing when you listen to the radio?
: (When the Spice Girls come on, I instinctively turn the radio _up_, I'll
: admit, though I hear them so rarely I'm not OD'ed yet.)
I'm not sure I could identify a Spice Girl tune if it bit me on the
nose. Being something of an expert on the Banana Splits and the Monkees, I
think I'll live.
David Loftus
Ted Samsel
: : As opposed to, say, Borodin or Prokofiev, whose work I will always
: : seek out, even though Prokofiev wrote a few very boring pieces, or,
: : more contemporary, I am always willing to give John Williams (the
: : composer) a chance.
: Oh, hey, I LOVE his score for "The Cowboys." What's annoying is, every
: time he conducts excerpts from it, I never hear them play the weird and
: wobbly Bruce Dern theme.
That's because Bruce Dern killed John Wayne.
simon smith
>I think much of Philip Glass' work suffers from the basic problem that he
>doesn't know what a "hook" is.
The aesthetic criteria used in this newsgroup are often very strange
(all too familiar). It seems you are asking to be kindly hooked up into
the music without making the adjustment or effort necessary to find your
way into it yourself. But most worthwhile modern art demands that
effort.
--
Simon
--
Alan R. Light
>[...]
>> The only thing I've noticed is that it all sounds the same after
>> a while.
> ^^^^^^^
>You misspelled "30 seconds".
;-) ;-) ;-)
It's not *quite* that bad, and it can be kind of relaxing at times. . . .
(If you listen closely, you can also hear some variations.)
Alan
--
-------a-l-i-g-h-t-@-v-n-e-t-.-n-e-t--------- Alan R. Light
|This sentence is public domain -- you might| http://users.vnet.net/alight
Alan R. Light
>more to have performed it. I sang the Adams "Harmonium" a number of
Sometimes I sing along to "Soldiers of heaven hold the sky"
from "Nixon in China".
[I have previously written:]
>: more contemporary, I am always willing to give John Williams (the
>: composer) a chance.
>
>Oh, hey, I LOVE his score for "The Cowboys." What's annoying is, every
>time he conducts excerpts from it, I never hear them play the weird and
>wobbly Bruce Dern theme.
Well, I grew up with "Star Wars", so it's natural for me to like Williams,
but he's done such an awful lot of good stuff. The "Olympic Fanfare"
for the 1984 olympics, the "Imperial March" (Empire Strikes Back),
and "Raiders of the Lost Ark" to name just a few.
Alan R. Light
>Have you heard Hedningarna? They add mindboggling female harmonies to
>this mix, in a couple of songs anyway.
Don't know Hedningarna's nationality, but as a public service announcement,
anyone who hasn't heard female vocals of the traditional Norwegian sort
is really missing out on something.
hea...@scc.net
jo...@mcs.com (Jorn Barger) wrote:
> <hea...@scc.net> wrote:
> > If you like strange string music, try the Finnish groups JPP and Troka -
> > strings/accordion/harmonium. Unearthly. I just discovered them recently
> > and am now addicted.
>
> this mix, in a couple of songs anyway.
Yes, I like them a lot. There are many more such Nordic-folk bands on the
Northside label:
One of their artists is Wimme Saari, a Sami (Lappish) guy who does folk-style
chanting with a techno-style backup. There's a very funny song of his called
"Texas" which seems to have been inspired by ZZ Top.
hea...@scc.net
dl...@netcom.com (David J. Loftus) wrote:
> Francis Muir (fra...@stanford.edu) wrote:
>
> : Jorn Barger:
>
> : > Alan R. Light:
>
> : > [...]
> : > > The only thing I've noticed is that it all sounds the same after
> : > > a while.
> : > ^^^^^^^
> : >
> : > You misspelled "30 seconds".
>
>
>
> We should not be surprised to hear someone chime in at this point and
> say the same is true of most of Arvo Part's music, but it won't happen
> because Part is sacrosanct.
I'm not a big Part fan either, but it's amusing to hear people try to
pronounce his name.
Ted Samsel
gamelan and magalasy music.
ObGuitPicker: D'Garry.
Ted Samsel
: >Have you heard Hedningarna? They add mindboggling female harmonies to
: >this mix, in a couple of songs anyway.
: Don't know Hedningarna's nationality, but as a public service announcement,
: anyone who hasn't heard female vocals of the traditional Norwegian sort
: is really missing out on something.
Try living upstairs from a Balkan Womens' Chorus. At least there's no
lutefisk.
hea...@scc.net
simon smith <cl...@cake2.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> The aesthetic criteria used in this newsgroup are often very strange
> (all too familiar). It seems you are asking to be kindly hooked up into
> the music without making the adjustment or effort necessary to find your
> way into it yourself. But most worthwhile modern art demands that
> effort.
Do you think if I read a few hundred pages of critical analysis of Philip
Glass' stuff, it would sound less monotonous and repetitive?
ObBook: "The Painted Word", by Tom Wolfe
Susan Young
> They call me:
> Deep Spice
Well, that's better than "Old Spice".
Susan
Mina Kumar
>
> The aesthetic criteria used in this newsgroup are often very strange
> (all too familiar). It seems you are asking to be kindly hooked up into
> the music without making the adjustment or effort necessary to find your
> way into it yourself. But most worthwhile modern art demands that
> effort.
Puke.
I'm too lazy to type in the relevant passages from Philip Larkin, so
just look it up amongst yourselves.
> --
> Simon
> --
--
Mina Kumar
http://www.concentric.net/~Minak
Susan Young
> jo...@mcs.com (Jorn Barger) wrote:
> > Have you heard Hedningarna? They add mindboggling female harmonies to
> > this mix, in a couple of songs anyway.
>
> Yes, I like them a lot. There are many more such Nordic-folk bands on the
> Northside label:
>
> http://www.noside.com
>
> One of their artists is Wimme Saari, a Sami (Lappish) guy who does folk-style
> chanting with a techno-style backup. There's a very funny song of his called
> "Texas" which seems to have been inspired by ZZ Top.
There's a CD called "Songs from the Cold Seas" (produced by Hector Zazou)
that's a sort of sampler of this kind of music. It has one by Saari and I
think two by the Finnish women's group Varttina.
Susan
simon smith
>In article <cx09JAAY...@cake2.demon.co.uk>,
> simon smith <cl...@cake2.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> The aesthetic criteria used in this newsgroup are often very strange
>> (all too familiar). It seems you are asking to be kindly hooked up into
>> the music without making the adjustment or effort necessary to find your
>> way into it yourself. But most worthwhile modern art demands that
>> effort.
>
>Glass' stuff, it would sound less monotonous and repetitive?
I was referring to your aesthetic criteria, not the music of Philip
Glass in particular.
>
>ObBook: "The Painted Word", by Tom Wolfe
Tory philistine. Modern art is full of crap and hype and liberal
conformism, but there is some left over that is worth the effort and
adjustment needed to let it disrupt your mind.
>
--
Simon
--
simon smith
<mi...@concentric.net> writes
>simon smith wrote:
>>
>
>> The aesthetic criteria used in this newsgroup are often very strange
>> (all too familiar). It seems you are asking to be kindly hooked up into
>> the music without making the adjustment or effort necessary to find your
>> way into it yourself. But most worthwhile modern art demands that
>> effort.
>
But what exactly makes you puke? Joyce, Boulez, Beckett, Schoenberg,
Canetti... I had to make an effort to understand them, and it was worth
it. If one demands that everything has a hook like a chart pop song,
one'll be missing a lot. I'm not sure why such a statement should set
off a vomiting reflex.
>
>I'm too lazy to type in the relevant passages from Philip Larkin, so
>just look it up amongst yourselves.
>
Small-minded bigoted Tory philistine, also sometimes a good poet.
--
Simon
--
Susan Otto
> Don't get me wrong. I do appreciate some monotonous music. I do like
> gamelan and magalasy music.
Which brings to mind what Rossini said of Wagner:
"He has some very interesting moments -- and some very boring
half hours."
and, when asked what he thought of the opera [Lohengrin?] :
"It is impossible to comment on it, having heard it only once;
and I do not intend to hear it again."
sotto
tejas
>
> In article <72fjt2$joq$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, hea...@scc.net writes
> >In article <cx09JAAY...@cake2.demon.co.uk>,
> >
> >> The aesthetic criteria used in this newsgroup are often very strange
> >> (all too familiar). It seems you are asking to be kindly hooked up into
> >> the music without making the adjustment or effort necessary to find your
> >> way into it yourself. But most worthwhile modern art demands that
> >> effort.
> >
> >Glass' stuff, it would sound less monotonous and repetitive?
>
> I was referring to your aesthetic criteria, not the music of Philip
> Glass in particular.
> >
> >ObBook: "The Painted Word", by Tom Wolfe
>
> Tory philistine. Modern art is full of crap and hype and liberal
> conformism, but there is some left over that is worth the effort and
> adjustment needed to let it disrupt your mind.
Like ECT?
--
TBSa...@richmond.infi.net (also te...@infi.net)
'Do the boogie woogie in the South American way'
Hank Snow THE RHUMBA BOOGIE
tejas
I've got a pal, now an Austin lawyer, who majored in Scandinavian
Languages & Lit at the U of Texas. For a while, he fronted the
hottest Country-Western band in all of Scandahoovia, the Rattlers.
Ah, for those halcyon days of yore. They played everywhere.
ObFlick: THE LENINGRAD COWBOYS DO AMERICA
aug...@micron.net
>
> Jorn Barger:
>
>> Alan R. Light:
>
>>> I'm surprised to see such dislike for Philip Glass's music.
>> [...]
>>> The only thing I've noticed is that it all sounds the same after
>>> a while.
>> ^^^^^^^
>>
>> You misspelled "30 seconds".
>
> These statements are on a par with "all Chinamen look alike".
Don't they?
Paul J.
Mina Kumar
>
> In article <364B47...@concentric.net>, Mina Kumar
> <mi...@concentric.net> writes
> >>
> >
> >> The aesthetic criteria used in this newsgroup are often very strange
> >> (all too familiar). It seems you are asking to be kindly hooked up into
> >> the music without making the adjustment or effort necessary to find your
> >> way into it yourself. But most worthwhile modern art demands that
> >> effort.
> >
>
> But what exactly makes you puke? Joyce, Boulez, Beckett, Schoenberg,
> Canetti... I had to make an effort to understand them, and it was worth
> it. If one demands that everything has a hook like a chart pop song,
> one'll be missing a lot. I'm not sure why such a statement should set
> off a vomiting reflex.
Your attitude makes me puke. Joyce (except for a passage here and
there), Beckett and Schoenberg just bore me. Boulez and Canetti I am
not acquainted with.
> >I'm too lazy to type in the relevant passages from Philip Larkin, so
> >just look it up amongst yourselves.
> >
> Small-minded bigoted Tory philistine, also sometimes a good poet.
Philistine? Stop being clueless and read what he wrote about Hardy or
jazz.
I have to also say that all those mentioned above are white males,
precisely the group PL was *not* bigoted about. And is Labour full of
esthetes? Do tell.
Fiona Webster
but yesterday Tex wrote:
> My high school aged children were recently
> "traumatized" by the soundtrack accompanying "Koaansquatski"(?)
> in the past few weeks. The visuals were OK, but the audio.....
I was under the impression that the soundtrack of "Koyaanisqatsi"
was *supposed* to be traumatizing.
--Fiona
Fiona Webster
> I'm too lazy to type in the relevant passages from Philip Larkin,
> so just look it up amongst yourselves.
Simon:
> Small-minded bigoted Tory philistine, also sometimes a good poet.
I heard recently that shortly before Larkin died, he actually resigned
himself to the fact that almost everyone who remembered him in the
future, would remember him for "They fuck you up, your mum and dad."
He said something about how it could've been worse--something
treacly, for example.
--Fiona
maureen scobie
films which were brought into this house to prepare me for my trip to
San Francisco and the rab gathering down the slippery slopes:
Vertigo, Bullitt, The Big Clock, Point Blank, and San Francisco (Clark
Gable and Jeanette MacDonald).
Maureen
MT
<<Try living upstairs from a Balkan Womens' Chorus. At least there's no
lutefisk.>>
Or within a few blocks from a Russian Men's Chorus. Great voices and
music, but definitely loud. For a while, such a chorus used to practice
in a squash court in my alma mater's sports center. The weight lifters
and the joggers loved the sound, but the squash and racquetball players
couldn't concentrate much.
hea...@scc.net
simon smith <cl...@cake2.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <72fjt2$joq$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, hea...@scc.net writes
> >Do you think if I read a few hundred pages of critical analysis of Philip
> >Glass' stuff, it would sound less monotonous and repetitive?
>
> I was referring to your aesthetic criteria, not the music of Philip
> Glass in particular.
Why should I not compare Philip Glass unfavorably to James Brown?
Larisa Migachyov
:Alan R. Light <ali...@katie.vnet.net> wrote:
:: Jorn Barger <jo...@mcs.com> wrote:
:: >Have you heard Hedningarna? They add mindboggling female harmonies to
:: >this mix, in a couple of songs anyway.
:: Don't know Hedningarna's nationality, but as a public service announcement,
:: anyone who hasn't heard female vocals of the traditional Norwegian sort
:: is really missing out on something.
:Try living upstairs from a Balkan Womens' Chorus. At least there's no
:lutefisk.
What kind of sound would a lutefisk make?
--
Larisa Migachyov * Quant'e bella giovinezza
Biomechanical Engineering * Che si fugge tuttavia!
Stanford University * Chi vuol esser lieto, sia;
http://www.stanford.edu/~lvm * Di doman non c'e certezza.
Larisa Migachyov
<1did5gv.gz...@jorn.pr.mcs.net> <francis-1211...@sunet-s2as03-1-dynamic-18.stanford.edu> <364B06...@netdirect.net>:
Distribution:
Michael S. Morris wrote:
:Thursday, the 12th of November, 1998
:
:
:
:Francis wrote, regarding assertions about the
:"sameness" of Philip Glass's music:
: These statements are on a par with "all Chinamen
: look alike".
:
:Could you elaborate---maybe with examples of
:Glass which you find different? To my ear,
:"sameness" and repetitive pattern (though
:with the arabesque effect of subtle variation
:on that repitition) is characteristic of Glass's
:music---and of all of it I can think of, including
:the early major work "Music in Twelve Parts",
:the string quartets (at least numbers 2-5), the
:score to Koyaanisqatsi, "Itaipu", various Glass
:organ works, and the "Heroes" Symphony. Different
:people like it more or less, but seem to agree on
:its sameness and repetition. You seem to suggest
:that it is more varied than it seems. Can you
:explain?
Well, what makes it interesting is the subtle, gradual variation of the
repeating pattern, and the somewhat hypnotic effect of the repetition. I
rather like it, if only as ear-candy.
lus...@rocketmail.com
hea...@scc.net wrote:
> In article <1didk9u.zo...@jorn.pr.mcs.net>,
> jo...@mcs.com (Jorn Barger) wrote:
> > <hea...@scc.net> wrote:
> > > If you like strange string music, try the Finnish groups JPP and Troka -
> > > strings/accordion/harmonium. Unearthly. I just discovered them recently
> > > and am now addicted.
> >
> > this mix, in a couple of songs anyway.
While Hedningarna (and their distinctive instruments) are Swedish, those
harmonies stem from eastern Finland or Karelia, courtesy of the two fantastic
Finnish singers (who扉e unfortunately left the group).
> Yes, I like them a lot. There are many more such Nordic-folk bands on the
> Northside label:
>
> http://www.noside.com
>
> One of their artists is Wimme Saari, a Sami (Lappish) guy who does folk-style
> chanting with a techno-style backup. There's a very funny song of his called
> "Texas" which seems to have been inspired by ZZ Top.
Wimmeæ„€ "chanting" is quite authentic - without the backup it could come from
an antropologistæ„€ recording.
Another Finnish Texas-connection, is Erik Hokkanen (a 3rd generation Finn-
American), the hottest fiddle player in Austin, whose brand of music is worth
listening. He creates the most exciting happenings at the Kaustinen Folm Music
Festival every summer:-)
Lustig
tejas
That's what I told 'em. One must suffer for "ort", right?
Like RAGE AGAINST DAD?
tejas
ObSceneInFlick: From BRASSED OFF
<in ER waiting room in the North of England>
Sister:
Sir, is this man bothering you?
YoungMan:
Of course 'e is, 'e's me Da!
tejas
>
> Ted Samsel wrote:
> :Alan R. Light <ali...@katie.vnet.net> wrote:
> :: Jorn Barger <jo...@mcs.com> wrote:
> :: >this mix, in a couple of songs anyway.
> :: Don't know Hedningarna's nationality, but as a public service announcement,
> :: anyone who hasn't heard female vocals of the traditional Norwegian sort
> :: is really missing out on something.
> :
> :Try living upstairs from a Balkan Womens' Chorus. At least there's no
> :lutefisk.
>
> What kind of sound would a lutefisk make?
How is it tuned?
How many strings?
hea...@scc.net
tbsa...@richmond.infi.net wrote:
> Larisa Migachyov wrote:
> > What kind of sound would a lutefisk make?
>
> How is it tuned?
> How many strings?
Dang, maybe the commodity has been misused all these years.
--
Heather Henderson
hea...@scc.net
http://scc.net/~heather
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
hea...@scc.net
msc...@coastnet.com wrote:
> San Francisco (Clark Gable and Jeanette MacDonald).
This is a cute one, and it features some amazing special effects in the
earthquake scene - I don't know how they managed it.
Michael S. Morris
Ted Samsel writes:
Try living upstairs from a Balkan Womens'
Chorus. At least there's no lutefisk.
It always comes down to lutefisk, doesn't it?
Mike Morris
(msmo...@netdirect.net)
simon smith
>In article <L2NIYeA8...@cake2.demon.co.uk>,
> simon smith <cl...@cake2.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> In article <72fjt2$joq$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, hea...@scc.net writes
>
>> >Do you think if I read a few hundred pages of critical analysis of Philip
>> >Glass' stuff, it would sound less monotonous and repetitive?
>>
>> I was referring to your aesthetic criteria, not the music of Philip
>> Glass in particular.
>
>Why should I not compare Philip Glass unfavorably to James Brown?
No, I was making a general point that it is unfair to expect certain
forms of art to give you a 'hook' like James Brown (all respect to the
man) does. Pop culture predisposes me to require such a hook, but I try
to resist, otherwise I would never be able to give myself the chance to
experience the truly strange.
--
Simon
--
Ted Samsel
: In article <72g1mv$vjf$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, hea...@scc.net writes
Like what?
ObLabel: Parliament/Funkadelic
--
Ted Samsel....tejas@infi.net (or tbsa...@richmond.infi.net)
"do the boogie woogie in the South American way"
Rhumba Boogie- Hank Snow (1955)
Francis Muir
> Wimmeæ„€ "chanting" is quite authentic - without the backup it could
come from
> an antropologistæ„€ recording.
> Another Finnish Texas-connection, is Erik Hokkanen (a 3rd generation Finn-
> American), the hottest fiddle player in Austin, whose brand of music
is worth
> listening. He creates the most exciting happenings at the Kaustinen
Folm Music
> Festival every summer:-)
Lustig? Now there's a name from the Good Old Days. Welcome back.
FM
simon smith
<mi...@concentric.net> writes
Simon wrote -
>>
>> If one demands that everything has a hook like a chart pop song,
>> one'll be missing a lot.
>Your attitude makes me puke.
<severely snipped>
If this is an unfair piece of editing, please tell me why.
--
Simon
--
simon smith
> Joyce (except for a passage here and
>there), Beckett and Schoenberg just bore me.
Uh, okay...
>> >I'm too lazy to type in the relevant passages from Philip Larkin, so
>> >just look it up amongst yourselves.
>> >
>> Small-minded bigoted Tory philistine, also sometimes a good poet.
>
>Philistine? Stop being clueless and read what he wrote about Hardy or
>jazz.
He was philistine about virtually the whole of modern art i.e. any art
that might have challenged his narrow, petrified view of the world. I'm
not a follower of jazz but I believe he scorned everything following
from Charlie Parker onwards as arty or modern or something.
>
>
>I have to also say that all those mentioned above are white males,
>precisely the group PL was *not* bigoted about.
So..?
> And is Labour full of
>esthetes? Do tell.
Aesthetes? Yuk... There's something else besides philistinism (the
puking on art) and aestheticism (the fetishism of art).
>
--
Simon
--
Sanjiva Prasad
> Lustig? Now there's a name from the Good Old Days. Welcome back.
My little German had Lustig = Jolly. Where does our Jolly Roger fly
these days?
-S.
David J. Loftus
: David J. Loftus <dl...@netcom.com> wrote:
: : : As opposed to, say, Borodin or Prokofiev, whose work I will always
: : : seek out, even though Prokofiev wrote a few very boring pieces, or,
: : : more contemporary, I am always willing to give John Williams (the
: : : composer) a chance.
: : Oh, hey, I LOVE his score for "The Cowboys." What's annoying is, every
: : time he conducts excerpts from it, I never hear them play the weird and
: : wobbly Bruce Dern theme.
: That's because Bruce Dern killed John Wayne.
All the more reason to like him and the movie ... and to play his theme.
David Loftus
David J. Loftus
: David J. Loftus <dl...@netcom.com> wrote:
: >Oh, hey, I LOVE his score for "The Cowboys." What's annoying is, every
: >time he conducts excerpts from it, I never hear them play the weird and
: >wobbly Bruce Dern theme.
: Well, I grew up with "Star Wars", so it's natural for me to like Williams,
: but he's done such an awful lot of good stuff. The "Olympic Fanfare"
: for the 1984 olympics, the "Imperial March" (Empire Strikes Back),
: and "Raiders of the Lost Ark" to name just a few.
Didn't Williams also score "The Undefeated," with John Wayne and Rock
Hudson? A decent little Western with terrific music.
David Loftus
Mina Kumar
>
> In article <364B84...@concentric.net>, Mina Kumar
> <mi...@concentric.net> writes
> >>
> >> If one demands that everything has a hook like a chart pop song,
> >> one'll be missing a lot.
>
> >Your attitude makes me puke.
>
> <severely snipped>
>
> If this is an unfair piece of editing, please tell me why.
b/c you snipped the crap you said?
Mina Kumar
> >Philistine? Stop being clueless and read what he wrote about Hardy or
> >jazz.
>
> He was philistine about virtually the whole of modern art i.e. any art
> that might have challenged his narrow, petrified view of the world. I'm
> not a follower of jazz but I believe he scorned everything following
> from Charlie Parker onwards as arty or modern or something.
Or something. Do us a favor and at least find out the grounds for his
judgement *before* you castigate him, OK? Then perhaps you could make a
distinction between being a philistine and being a "philistine about
virtually the whole of modern art"; not to mention relieving yourself
from the delusion that only modern art would have challenged his
worldview (in political terms).
Oh yes, the thing to alleviate PL of his racism was *Beckett and Charlie
Parkie*, sho nuff. Why, after you read Godot, you never again say
things about Caribbean germs in the subways.
Mina Kumar
> Um... I wouldn't pay too much attention to Mina Kumar's pronouncements
> which are, IMHO, remarkable only for their acerbity. In the past,
> she's also held that the standard, formulaic, `masala' Hindi feature
> film was superior to Satyajit Ray's masterpieces and
My copy of Kurudhi Punal to the first person to explain why this is an
absurd summary of my position *without* using DejaNews.
Raghu Seshadri
>> Um... I wouldn't pay too much attention to Mina Kumar's pronouncements
>> which are, IMHO, remarkable only for their acerbity. In the past,
>> she's also held that the standard, formulaic, `masala' Hindi feature
>> film was superior to Satyajit Ray's masterpieces and
>
> My copy of Kurudhi Punal to the first person to explain why this is an
> absurd summary of my position *without* using DejaNews.
I could be wrong, but I have a feeling
your copy will go unclaimed.
RS
Jorn Barger
> Mina Kumar <mi...@concentric.net> writes:
> > Rajappa Iyer wrote:
> > > Um... I wouldn't pay too much attention to Mina Kumar's pronouncements
> > > which are, IMHO, remarkable only for their acerbity. In the past,
> > > she's also held that the standard, formulaic, `masala' Hindi feature
> > > film was superior to Satyajit Ray's masterpieces and
> > My copy of Kurudhi Punal to the first person to explain why this is an
> > absurd summary of my position *without* using DejaNews.
> Here's what you said in <35FBD6...@concentric.net>:
> :Picasso-Pound-Parker all over again. I have seen Sholay, and I've seen
> :Pathar Panchali, and I'll take Sholay any day. Hell, despite the fact
> :that it offended my p.c. sensibilities, I'd rather see Indhyan.
[...]
I love Bollywood, so if "Kurudhi Punal" is a video, I haven't used Deja,
and my explanation is that Mina expressed a personal preference, not an
abstract 'superiority'. This is closely related to the most popular
Usenet fallacy-- the inability to tell 'all' from 'some'.
(I was gonna use Reference.com, but Rajappa saved me the trouble.)
j
--
I edit the Net: <URL:http://www.mcs.net/~jorn/html/weblogs/weblog.html>
"The real gem among his musings is the weblog, a detailed daily account
of Jorn's travels around the web. Watch a highly observant and
thoughtful web surfer at work." -- UK Guardian, 21 October 1998
Mina Kumar
>
> Rajappa on Mina:
>
> <<In the past,
> she's also held that the standard, formulaic, `masala' Hindi feature
> otherwise was merely passing their ignorance off as refined taste.>>
>
> A proper penance for such a sin would be to spend the rest of her life
> watching those insufferable masala films.
I have, do, and will. As for insufferable, I suspect you couldn't tell
Sindhu Bhairavi from Sholay, so the only thing you are really doing is
asking us to suffer opinions on subjects you know little about. Correct
me if I'm wrong, though. Do tell us, say, all about why K. Balachandar
has caused you pain.
Mina Kumar
>
> Mina Kumar <mi...@concentric.net> writes:
>
> > Rajappa Iyer wrote:
> >
> > > Um... I wouldn't pay too much attention to Mina Kumar's pronouncements
> > > she's also held that the standard, formulaic, `masala' Hindi feature
> > > film was superior to Satyajit Ray's masterpieces and
> >
> > absurd summary of my position *without* using DejaNews.
>
>
> Here's what you said in <35FBD6...@concentric.net>:
>
> :Picasso-Pound-Parker all over again. I have seen Sholay, and I've seen
> :Pathar Panchali, and I'll take Sholay any day. Hell, despite the fact
> :that it offended my p.c. sensibilities, I'd rather see Indhyan.
> :You might try Iqbal Masud's memoir, which discusses the propensity of
> :the "intelligentsia" to advertise their ignorance as contempt.
>
> It shall be most entertaining to watch you wriggle out of this one.
Yup, too lazy. I cannot bear to spend the time to go fetch the post in
which you wriggled out of your own inane pronouncements by averring that
Sholay was an exception.
But thanks for bringing up the Philip Larkin. I was too lazy to type
that again too.
Mina Kumar
>
> Mina Kumar <mi...@concentric.net> wrote:
>
> >> Um... I wouldn't pay too much attention to Mina Kumar's pronouncements
> >> which are, IMHO, remarkable only for their acerbity. In the past,
> >> she's also held that the standard, formulaic, `masala' Hindi feature
> >> film was superior to Satyajit Ray's masterpieces and
> >
> > My copy of Kurudhi Punal to the first person to explain why this is an
> > absurd summary of my position *without* using DejaNews.
>
> your copy will go unclaimed.
Surely anyone who spends the time to reply to your posts has already
proven that she has a (perhaps misplaced) faith that all is never
hopeless?
MT
disappeared from here and, more recently, disappeared from the classical
music groups to which he contributed his encyclopedic knowledge. I hope
it's Roger.
Regards,
mt
David J. Loftus
: Tejas:
: <<Try living upstairs from a Balkan Womens' Chorus. At least there's no
: lutefisk.>>
: Or within a few blocks from a Russian Men's Chorus. Great voices and
: music, but definitely loud. For a while, such a chorus used to practice
: in a squash court in my alma mater's sports center. The weight lifters
: and the joggers loved the sound, but the squash and racquetball players
: couldn't concentrate much.
Heh. My Grandfather was a fairly rabid anti-communist who considered
Debussy and Ravel "modern junk -- no good" (in fact, that is what he
wrote in pen on the LP cover of such an album belonging to my Dad that
accidently ended up in his collection, but he loved to blast records of
the Soviet Army Chorus on his stereo.
David Loftus
simon smith
<mi...@concentric.net> writes
>simon smith wrote:
>
>> >Philistine? Stop being clueless and read what he wrote about Hardy or
>> >jazz.
>>
>> He was philistine about virtually the whole of modern art i.e. any art
>> that might have challenged his narrow, petrified view of the world. I'm
>> not a follower of jazz but I believe he scorned everything following
>> from Charlie Parker onwards as arty or modern or something.
>
>Or something. Do us a favor and at least find out the grounds for his
>judgement *before* you castigate him, OK?
That was an aside and I wasn't castigating him. I was just pointing out
that he rejected jazz as soon as it attempted to move beyond traditional
formulas. That much I know. But I'm not a jazz fan.
> Then perhaps you could make a
>distinction between being a philistine and being a "philistine about
>virtually the whole of modern art"; not to mention relieving yourself
>from the delusion that only modern art would have challenged his
>worldview (in political terms).
I would say that modernist art is the art that attempts to confront
modern conditions. To reject it outright in favour of (say) C19th art
which attempted to deal with C19th conditions is to surrender to the
commonplace in one's own time. I would call that philistine. I haven't
expressed the belief that any art would have challenged his political
views.
>Oh yes, the thing to alleviate PL of his racism was *Beckett and Charlie
>Parkie*, sho nuff. Why, after you read Godot, you never again say
>things about Caribbean germs in the subways.
I said nothing about racism. I referred to his 'narrow, petrified view
of the world' which was related to his rejection of modern art. (I
didn't mean to imply that Charlie Parker was the sort of art I meant,
BTW, just wanted to show that even his appreciation of jazz had narrow
limits). Apart from Brecht and one or two others, modernism doesn't try
to have such a direct effect. I think the greatest value of art is in
it's honest depiction of current conditions - of the state of the psyche
and of relationships between people. By doing this Beckett, Pinter and
others may have the effect of shaking up the way we think. On the other
hand one may close one's eyes to them. I expect Larkin could manage
that.
I seem to have really riled you. Do you have anything to tell of your
own ideas?
--
Simon
--
Raghu Seshadri
Flattery is not going to get you anywhere :-)
"All is never hopeless" is a touching statement of
religious faith, and I try not to argue against
such beliefs. I was just presenting the
odds that anyone was going to be able to prove
Rajappa wrong in this instance. If "all is
never hopeless" is your only reason for believing
that you will be proved right, it effectively
means you are agreeing with my estimate of
the odds.
Isn't it irrational to be irritated with
someone who you are agreeing with ?
RS
Michael Kagalenko
]
]: David J. Loftus <dl...@netcom.com> wrote:
]
]: >Oh, hey, I LOVE his score for "The Cowboys." What's annoying is, every
]: >time he conducts excerpts from it, I never hear them play the weird and
]: >wobbly Bruce Dern theme.
]
]: Well, I grew up with "Star Wars", so it's natural for me to like Williams,
]: but he's done such an awful lot of good stuff. The "Olympic Fanfare"
]: for the 1984 olympics, the "Imperial March" (Empire Strikes Back),
I heard that "Empire" march borrows liberally from Holst's "Planets"
In my opinion, Williams's work always bears the seal of mediocrity.
Give me some brilliant wacko stuff by Prokofiev instead. Or, if
you are into "light" stuff, check out Sviridov, for ex., his film
suites.
]: and "Raiders of the Lost Ark" to name just a few.
Alan R. Light
> I heard that "Empire" march borrows liberally from Holst's "Planets"
Absolutely. "Good artists copy, great artists steal." ;-)
He's hardly the first, and "Imperial March" is sufficiently different
to be independently worthwhile.
> In my opinion, Williams's work always bears the seal of mediocrity.
Ah, but such brilliant mediocrity!
Alan
--
-------a-l-i-g-h-t-@-v-n-e-t-.-n-e-t--------- Alan R. Light
|This sentence is public domain -- you might| http://users.vnet.net/alight
|not be prosecuted or jailed for reading it.| Free etexts @ http://www.ipl.org
|* http://users.vnet.net/alight/liber.html *| http://www.cs.cmu.edu/books.html
EPalladino
the "Imperial March" sounds more like the main theme in the 4th movement to
Dvorak's New World Symphony. I think Williams borrowed from almost
everybody. I much prefer the film scores of Korngold. Beth
Michael Kagalenko wrote in message <72icsi$f...@lynx01.dac.neu.edu>...
>David J. Loftus (dl...@netcom.com) wrote in article
<dloftF2...@netcom.com>
>]Alan R. Light (ali...@katie.vnet.net) wrote:
>]
>]: David J. Loftus <dl...@netcom.com> wrote:
>]: Well, I grew up with "Star Wars", so it's natural for me to like
Williams,
>]: but he's done such an awful lot of good stuff. The "Olympic Fanfare"
>]: for the 1984 olympics, the "Imperial March" (Empire Strikes Back),
>
> I heard that "Empire" march borrows liberally from Holst's "Planets"
> In my opinion, Williams's work always bears the seal of mediocrity.
Mina Kumar
> > > > Um... I wouldn't pay too much attention to Mina Kumar's pronouncements
> > > > which are, IMHO, remarkable only for their acerbity. In the past,
> > > > she's also held that the standard, formulaic, `masala' Hindi feature
> > > > film was superior to Satyajit Ray's masterpieces and
> > > My copy of Kurudhi Punal to the first person to explain why this is an
> > > absurd summary of my position *without* using DejaNews.
> > Here's what you said in <35FBD6...@concentric.net>:
> > :Picasso-Pound-Parker all over again. I have seen Sholay, and I've seen
> > :Pathar Panchali, and I'll take Sholay any day. Hell, despite the fact
> > :that it offended my p.c. sensibilities, I'd rather see Indhyan.
>
> I love Bollywood, so if "Kurudhi Punal" is a video, I haven't used Deja,
> and my explanation is that Mina expressed a personal preference, not an
> abstract 'superiority'.
Well, yes, but this isn't quite the right answer.
This is closely related to the most popular
> Usenet fallacy-- the inability to tell 'all' from 'some'.
>
This is the right answer--going back to Thiru Rajappa's original post
mocking commercial Indian cinema, and continuing with the quote above
about *the* standard, formulaic.
Kurudhi Punal is not Bollywood and is on video. No subtitles but you
get to see Kamal.
Mina Kumar
>
> I would say that modernist art is the art that attempts to confront
> modern conditions. To reject it outright in favour of
So, modern art which is not modernist does *not* confront modern
conditions? So any work after 19xx which has say, linear narrative,
*cannot* be good? If PL rejects modernism, has he ipso facto proven his
dislike for work that is challenging to his worldview? or merely
challenging?
> >Oh yes, the thing to alleviate PL of his racism was *Beckett and Charlie
> >Parkie*, sho nuff. Why, after you read Godot, you never again say
> >things about Caribbean germs in the subways.
>
> I said nothing about racism. I referred to his 'narrow, petrified view
> of the world' which was related to his rejection of modern
So when you said bigoted you were also referring to his rejected of
modern art? Also Tory? Fine.
art. (I
> didn't mean to imply that Charlie Parker was the sort of art I meant,
> BTW, just wanted to show that even his appreciation of jazz had narrow
> limits). Apart from Brecht and one or two others,
Let's get this straight: to dislike bebop is sufficient indication that
one's appreciation of jazz has *narrow limits*?
modernism doesn't try
> to have such a direct effect. I think the greatest value
of art is in
> it's honest depiction of current conditions - of the state of the psyche
> and of relationships between people. By doing this Beckett, Pinter and
> others may have the effect of shaking up the way we think. On the other
> hand one may close one's eyes to them. I expect Larkin could manage
> that.
Uhuh. So disliking modernism = disliking art that honestly depicts
current conditions? He championed the writer whom I think had lots to
say about current conditions--of the state of the psyche and of
relationships between people--and said it rather well. I refer to
Barbara Pym.
> I seem to have really riled you. Do you have anything to tell of your
> own ideas?
If my distaste for stream-of-consciousness novels, atonal music and
Abstract Expressionism is evidence of my "narrow" tastes then your like
for the same is evidence that you confuse sloppiness with complexity.
If you call x a philistine for disliking modernism, he can then call you
a fool being conned by it. Or, we could all stop name-calling.
I would also say that *difficulty* is not evidence of greatness, nor is
eschewing of the traditional esthetic pleasures of a genre the kind of
tapasya that ipso facto deserves the boon of readerly attention. Shaks.
could offer something to all sorts of audiences from low to high brow,
and so could Bharatiar. That's part of what makes them truly great.
Three cheers for hooks.
Mina Kumar
>
> Mina Kumar <mi...@concentric.net> writes:
>
> > Rajappa Iyer wrote:
> > > Here's what you said in <35FBD6...@concentric.net>:
> > >
> > > :Picasso-Pound-Parker all over again. I have seen Sholay, and I've seen
> > > :Pathar Panchali, and I'll take Sholay any day. Hell, despite the fact
> > > :that it offended my p.c. sensibilities, I'd rather see Indhyan.
> > > :You might try Iqbal Masud's memoir, which discusses the propensity of
> > > :the "intelligentsia" to advertise their ignorance as contempt.
> > >
> > > It shall be most entertaining to watch you wriggle out of this one.
> >
> > Yup, too lazy. I cannot bear to spend the time to go fetch the post in
> > which you wriggled out of your own inane pronouncements by averring that
> > Sholay was an exception.
>
> exception making is quite permissible---not that I think ``Sholay'' is
> even in the same ballpark as ``Pathar Panchali,'' let alone superior,
> but, hey, it's a world where ``Independence Day'' was a big hit. You,
> however, didn't stop at ``Sholay,'' did you now? If it is
No, I listed Indhyan as well. That makes two. Pakeezah, there's
three...
your
> contention that there are some excellent movies that were better than
> ``Pathar Panchali'' and commercial to boot, I have no argument with
Fascinating.
Mark Starr
> The great JS Bach was also a plagiarist as well...
Oh?
Regards,
Mark Starr
Dorai Sitaram
Raghu Seshadri <sesh...@iPass.COM> wrote:
>Mina Kumar <mi...@concentric.net> wrote:
>
>>> Um... I wouldn't pay too much attention to Mina Kumar's pronouncements
>>> which are, IMHO, remarkable only for their acerbity. In the past,
>>> she's also held that the standard, formulaic, `masala' Hindi feature
>>> film was superior to Satyajit Ray's masterpieces and
>>
>> My copy of Kurudhi Punal to the first person to explain why this is an
>> absurd summary of my position *without* using DejaNews.
>
>your copy will go unclaimed.
Well... if you focus on the "summary" rather than the
"absurd", there may still be some hope.
--d
Dylan Bryan-Dolman
> Simon:
> > Small-minded bigoted Tory philistine, also sometimes a good poet.
Don't be a bigot yourself; his politics enter his poetry twice that I'm
aware of, both times in the form of unpretentious doggerel clearly set
apart from his serious work.
Though I must admit I do find it hard to forgive him his praising the
traditional traditional jazz of his youth, as opposed to the sixties cool
jazz he hated, by calling it "happy music made by happy people." Well
zip-a-dee-doo-fucking-dah to you too.
> I heard recently that shortly before Larkin died, he actually resigned
> himself to the fact that almost everyone who remembered him in the
> future, would remember him for "They fuck you up, your mum and dad."
He said something like, "I fully expect to hear it recited in unison by a
troop of Girl Guides before I die." This plan was not realized.
Dylan
=dbd=
Can Love not keep a Maytime vow in cities?
Fades it as the Rose cut for a rich display?
--Ann Trulove, "A Rake's Progress"
Dylan Bryan-Dolman
> Well, what makes it interesting is the subtle, gradual variation of the
> repeating pattern,
Except that Glass does not really apply minimalist techniques in a serious
way anymore--he merely uses the repetitive minimalist "sound" as an excuse
for writing shapeless, directionless tonal music.
Dylan
=dbd=
Dylan Bryan-Dolman
> Ted Samsel wrote:
> :Try living upstairs from a Balkan Womens' Chorus. At least there's no
> :lutefisk.
>
> What kind of sound would a lutefisk make?
Enter lutefisk in haste from stage left.
Lutefisk: *Splat!*
Larisa [wiping lutefisk out of her eyes]: I see. Thank you.
Dylan
=dbd=
Dylan Bryan-Dolman
<6hR0dJAK...@cake2.demon.co.uk>...
> In article <72g1mv$vjf$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, hea...@scc.net writes
> >Why should I not compare Philip Glass unfavorably to James Brown?
>
> No, I was making a general point that it is unfair to expect certain
> forms of art to give you a 'hook' like James Brown (all respect to the
> man) does. Pop culture predisposes me to require such a hook, but I try
> to resist, otherwise I would never be able to give myself the chance to
> experience the truly strange.
I think Heather's point was that Glass's music does, in fact, work like
hook-based pop music, but, lacking hooks, doesn't work very well. Glass
often deliberately invokes the pop style, using themes by David Bowie and
lyrics by Paul Simon, David Byrne, and others.
In his defense, I think Glass has written some good hooks -- the other
night I was enjoying my recording of selections from Satyagraha, which,
while not James Brown, does have some lively and propulsive bass lines.
But I think Michael Torke is more successful at writing good pop music that
sounds like bad art music.
MT
<<In the past,
she's also held that the standard, formulaic, `masala' Hindi feature
film was superior to Satyajit Ray's masterpieces and anyone who felt
otherwise was merely passing their ignorance off as refined taste.>>
A proper penance for such a sin would be to spend the rest of her life
watching those insufferable masala films.
.....
Raymond Hall
>
> Even though I hear a lot of Holst's The Planets in the score to Star Wars
> the "Imperial March" sounds more like the main theme in the 4th movement to
> Dvorak's New World Symphony. I think Williams borrowed from almost
> everybody. I much prefer the film scores of Korngold. Beth
>
that easy, then why haven't many more gifted musicians got in on the
act? John Williams, as far as I know, doesn't pretend to be a great
composer. Simply a very good film music composer.
The great JS Bach was also a plagiarist as well, and was known to borrow
from others, as well as himself.
| Ray Hall: < hallr...@bigpond.com >
| "My God! What has sound got to do with music!" (Essays) Chas. Ives
Philip Nikolayev
> I love Bollywood,
It's Mollywood now. Bollywood is no more.
Salam Mumbai. Bzzzzt.
PN
Philip Nikolayev
> As for insufferable, I suspect you couldn't tell Sindhu Bhairavi
> from Sholay,
A Hindi movies flamewar in r.a.b.! Just what I needed ek dam.
Yeh doooooooooooooooos-teeeee ham naheeeeeeeeN tooooooooRenge!
R.a.b. kabhi na chhooooooooooooRenge.
By the way, I wanna write lyrics for Hindi movie songs. How does one
get into that business? How much is it per line?
Salam sab ko.
PN
Raymond Hall
>
> Raymond Hall wrote:
>
> > The great JS Bach was also a plagiarist as well...
>
> Oh?
>
Why was it necessary to snip half of my sentence above? And your reply
implies some sort of contradiction to my statement. Well, the
expansiveness of your post could lead me to believe anything ;-)
Are not his JSB's clavier concertos all reworkings of previous oboe
concerti, or other previous works? The Triple Concerto (for Harpsichord,
Violin and Flute) BWV 1044 was a reworking from the Prelude and Fugue in
A minor, BWV 894, and also the adagio of the Organ sonata in D minor,
BWV 527. The Clavier concerti were all revisions, and none more so than
BWV 1057 which is a virtual reworking of the fourth of the Brandenburg
concertos. One could go on and on, and not having the appropriate tomes
at hand I shall stop there. Perhaps you have now encouraged me to pursue
this even further. Incidentally, my use of the word 'great', indicates
my complete reverence for Bach. But he was a plagiarist, not unlike many
other great composers.
My initial point, was simply that John Williams (as a film score
composer per se) should not be derided so, or even compared to the great
classical composers. But he is a great film composer, but obviously
doesn't rank alongside Walton, Shostakovitch or Prokofiev, and many
other purely classical composers, who wrote occasionally for films.
Why cannot we accept that he has introduced to many young people who
watch Star Wars and other like films, to the sound and texture of a
symphony orchestra? Haven't we all enjoyed Star Wars, and such like
films? I know I have, and perhaps many youngsters on the strength of the
film music, will go on to become lovers of classical music as a result.
Regards,
Jorn Barger
> > I love Bollywood,
>
> It's Mollywood now. Bollywood is no more.
Bollywood, Mollywood, Poldywood... I love 'em by any name.
Mina Kumar
>
> Fiona Webster <f...@oceanstar.com> wrote:
> > Simon:
> > > Small-minded bigoted Tory philistine, also sometimes a good poet.
>
> Don't be a bigot yourself; his politics enter his poetry twice that I'm
> aware of, both times in the form of unpretentious doggerel clearly set
> apart from his serious work.
>
going to suggest that High Windows or the reading one with the line
about breaking women like meringues evidenced no politics?
Mina Kumar
>
> Mina Kumar <mi...@concentric.net> writes:
>
> > As for insufferable, I suspect you couldn't tell Sindhu Bhairavi
> > from Sholay,
>
> A Hindi movies flamewar in r.a.b.! Just what I needed ek dam.
Yet another example of people making remarks on Indian cinema without
knowing what they are talking about. Contrary to popular rab delusion,
Indian cinema and Hindi cinema are not synonymous. I previously rather
pointedly suggested that many people who blithely make remarks about
Indian cinema would do well to be able to tell K. Balachandar from V.
Shantaram. Sindu Bhairavi is not a Hindi movie.
> Yeh doooooooooooooooos-teeeee ham naheeeeeeeeN tooooooooRenge!
Ithil thein enna, kadikkum theil enna, gnyannapenne?
Mina Kumar
>
> In article <72i5hf$ebn$1...@news1-alterdial.uu.net>,
> Raghu Seshadri <sesh...@iPass.COM> wrote:
> >Mina Kumar <mi...@concentric.net> wrote:
> >
> >>> Um... I wouldn't pay too much attention to Mina Kumar's pronouncements
> >>> she's also held that the standard, formulaic, `masala' Hindi feature
> >>> film was superior to Satyajit Ray's masterpieces and
> >>
> >> absurd summary of my position *without* using DejaNews.
> >
> >I could be wrong, but I have a feeling
> >your copy will go unclaimed.
>
> Well... if you focus on the "summary" rather than the
> "absurd", there may still be some hope.
>
> --d
No, that would be what's expected from the usual suspects. One *hopes*
for better.
Dorai Sitaram
Jorn Barger <jo...@mcs.com> wrote:
>I love Bollywood, so if "Kurudhi Punal" is a video, I haven't used Deja,
>and my explanation is that Mina expressed a personal preference, not an
>Usenet fallacy-- the inability to tell 'all' from 'some'.
Whoa! It wouldn't do let you win by being the sole
contestant, especially if you are going to invoke words
like "abstract". If you haven't already walked off
with the prize, here's my try: Ms. Kumar's original
text was too short to permit further summary. Hence,
Rajappa's commentary is absurd _qua_ summary. In other
words, it is an absurd summary. QED.
--d
Francis Muir
> Jorn Barger:
>
> > I love Bollywood,
>
> It's Mollywood now. Bollywood is no more.
>
> Salam Mumbai. Bzzzzt.
Whatever happened to Babu?
You think I know dam' nothing, but I tell you I know dam' all.
Francis
EPalladino
Actually I have nothing against Williams as a film composer as you would see
if you read ealier posts of mine. Actually I agree with you on the point of
his music introducing people to the sound of the symphony orchestra. That
is what happened to me and my original post on Williams discussing my love
for the score to Star Wars got me trounced upon by people who absolutely
*hated* Williams. But for anyone to claim originality in his music (or in
the music for most contemporary film composers) is to stretch the truth.
However, I think it is really funny to compare Williams to Bach as if Bach
is doing exactly the same thing as Williams.
But what exactly is "originality" in music? I do not consider myself some
type of expert. It's just that I've been thinking about this for a long
time. Yes, it is true that Bach, Handel, and company borrowed from their
own music and the music of other composers. This was not, at the time,
considered "plagiarism." The idea of plagiarism, and the related idea that
a composer must always be "original" in order to be considered great, is a
much later concept.
In the Renaissance, often the great Masses of composers like Palestrina were
based on music from earlier motets; either the composer's own or the motets
of other composers. In fact, composers probably considered it a compliment
when another composer, especially a genius like Bach, borrowed their music.
However, when Bach or Handel or Palestrina used previously composed music as
the basis of a new composition these compositions became works of genius in
their own right. Sometimes these works became better known than the
original compositions. We have to remember that people at that time did not
have the ability to hear the amount of music that we hear today. There were
no recordings to distribute music far beyond the locales of the original
performances and it is only with the arrival of the Baroque that you have
what could be considered "public" concerts that the general population paid
money to hear.
Bach's music did not become familiar with the general public until the 19th
century. Handel's music was more well-known in his lifetime, but after his
death (until quite recently) the work that was best known with the public
was Messiah. The point that I am making is that between availability of
recordings, and groups performing more and more music of the centuries
before the 19th, music lovers today have become familiar with a very large
body of music. So that it is easier for us to trace the common practice of
using previously composed music to create new music. This practice became
much less common in the 19th century with the emphasis developing that
"genius" had to derive from total "originality." And it was also during
the 19th century that trends started in music study that have continued
into the 20th century.
But we in the 20th century tend to look at everything with 19th century
eyes. Most "traditional" classical concerts program mostly 19th century
music. Most opera houses perform 19th century operas, with a few Mozart
operas thrown in. So when we hear music of earlier centuries that borrows
from previous compositions we immediately think "plagiarism" and
"unoriginality." Two of my favorite 19th century composers are Beethoven
and Berlioz. When I read critical analysis of their works, Beethoven is
considered a genius of great originality. I will agree 100% with this
assessment. Berlioz on the other hand is often criticised for
"self-plagiarism." I also think Berlioz is a genius (and original too.)
The fact that he sometimes used music that he composed previously to
generate new works should be no criticism.
But what really bothers me is the term "self-plagiarism." Can a person
really "plagiarize" their own works? Handel is often criticised for the
same offense. I think that regardless of your opinion about composers who
borrow from their own works this can never be referred to as "plagiarism."
Beth
Raymond Hall wrote in message <364D38F3...@bigpond.com>...