Fantasy for Kids (was Narnia)
SL...@cc.usu.edu
of the fantasy books I read in elementary school and junior high. In some
ways I think I enjoyed this type of fantasy more then the more adult type
fantasy I read now simply because it was so light. I like the Narnia books
quite a bit but I liked others a lot more, especially the set by Lloyd
Alexander (Black Cauldron, Taran Wanderer, High King, etc.) and the
Dark is Rising set (by Cooper?? I forget the name). I still go back and
reread these sets every once in a while. I'd be interested to see what other
fantasy books/sets out there like these which are geared towards younger
readers people liked and still go back and reread?
--
-- S. Beck
-- sl...@cc.usu.edu (or sl...@usu.bitnet)
Stephanie George
>All this discussion about the Narnia books has got me thinking back to some
>especially the set by Lloyd
>Alexander (Black Cauldron, Taran Wanderer, High King, etc.) and the
>Dark is Rising set (by Cooper?? I forget the name).
I enjoyed the Tripod trilogy by Christopher John (John Christopher?)
Well, I remebered that I enjoyed them. Can't remeber the titles (or the
author, apparently). But I remember how I found out about them: I was
home sick & saw a children's liturature review on PBS where they presented
several excerpts. Gee, I must have been 10 or 11, now look at me, reading
all over the place; public places, too.
Stephanie
--
Stephanie George
geo...@webb.psych.ufl.edu
Elizabeth Lear
SL...@cc.usu.edu (S. Beck) writes:
<I like the Narnia books quite a bit but I liked others a lot more,
<especially the set by Lloyd Alexander (Black Cauldron, Taran Wanderer,
<High King, etc.) and the Dark is Rising set (by Cooper?? I forget the
<name). I still go back and reread these sets every once in a while.
Susan Cooper, and yes I love(d) that set of books (I can still recite
the title poem from memory ..geez). I did not read the Lloyd
Alexander books as a child, but my fiance' is reading them to me now
as "bedtime" stories, one chapter a night, and I'm really enjoying
them. Together he and I have a rather large collection of 'children's
books': the Pooh books, the "House with a Clock in its Walls" series,
several Maurice Sendak, almost everything by Chris Van Allsburg, Dr.
Seuss, Narnia, and a lot of others. We have a reasonable mix of
picture books, story books, and young adult books, as much for our
enjoyment as that of any children that may appear in our lifetimes.
...eliz
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Stupendous Man
>ways I think I enjoyed this type of fantasy more then the more adult type
>fantasy I read now simply because it was so light. I like the Narnia books
>quite a bit but I liked others a lot more, especially the set by Lloyd
>Alexander (Black Cauldron, Taran Wanderer, High King, etc.
>
>-- sl...@cc.usu.edu (or sl...@usu.bitnet)
I must agree with yuor statement that the fantasy works that are
geared towards a younger audience seem to be much more enjoyable.
This could be due in part to the overall naive nature that a child
possesses. A child or young teenager is much more likely to believe
the works than an older person.
For myself, I remember a childhood where I did believe in magic and
monsters and the all the wonderful things that make up a good
fantasy novel. I read the Chronicles of Narnia, Tolkien's work and
Lloyd Alexander's books. There were also a few others like the
eight or nine works by Neil Hancock that dealt primarily with
talking animals.
The point that I'm trying to make is that fantasy by its very nature
is meant to be a somewhat idealistic pursuit. Things are usually
painted in black and white. And who else but a child is perfect in
understanding and placing the world into mostly two extremes.
Recently, I have been rereading Tolkien's work and have found that
some of the magic is lost. However, in this reading, I have
discovered Tolkien's ability to create lore and legend of epic
proportions.
I sincerely hope that, in regards to fantasy, that I, as well as the
rest of the world, do not lose sight of the importance of fantasy.
It tends to make the world a brighter place as well as causing one
to take a chance and dream of the "what-ifs".
Michael
--
Michael Butler - "Water, water everywhere nor any drop to drink"-
S.T. Coleridge and Iron Maiden//// Brad McQuaid - When reality
obscures your dreams, mind becomes a graveyard of memories, that
wander like the lonely breeze... -Fates Warning, No Exit
Cindy Tittle
|Susan Cooper, and yes I love(d) that set of books (I can still recite
|the title poem from memory ..geez).
Is that the one that goes "when the dark comes rising, six shall turn
it back / three from the circle, three from the track..."??
I memorized that when I was 11! Too many years ago!
--Cindy
--
"Disclaimer: any mental or physical anguish caused by inaccuracies in the
above is likely to be a very interesting story." -D. Decot
tit...@ics.uci.edu || clti...@uci.bitnet || ...!ucbvax!ucivax!tittle
Cindy Tittle
In some
>ways I think I enjoyed this type of fantasy more then the more adult type
>fantasy I read now simply because it was so light. I like the Narnia books
>quite a bit but I liked others a lot more, especially the set by Lloyd
>Alexander (Black Cauldron, Taran Wanderer, High King, etc.
>
>-- S. Beck
Don't forget E. Nesbit's work! Just tracked down a number of them
in NYC. Anyone have a definitive list of her works??
I completely agree about "juvenile" fantasy. I love fantasy of
all sorts, but fantasy geared toward the younger set have an
extra charm...
Chris Conway
I was a kid, I read a children's fantasy book that I cannot remember
the author or title of.
The plot revolved somehow around unicorns. There is one scene where
something similar to a Ouija board draws a picture of a unicorn,
and some mystery is solved when the children (who are English, I
think) find a store (?) bar (?) with a unicorn sign.
Anybody who can help me? I'd love to find and read it again --
after all, parts of it have stayed with me for a long time!
Thanks ;-) !
----------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCLAIMER: This is Not Chris Conway, | Philosophy is useless,
this is Lily-Rose using his login. | Theology is worse.
wom...@jupiter.nmt.edu | -- Dire Straits
Beth Mattson SE Sun St Louis
Years ago I read a book about some children (boys) who build
a space ship out of parts from the dump. One of the parts turns
out to belong to an alien (lizard type creature as I remember)
who finds the boys and then takes them on an adventure in the
solar system. They land on various planet and have great adventures.
Anyway, I have been trying to find this book for years. I'd like
to give it to my children. It was a library book, so I went back
to the library were I grew up and asked if I could look in their
records for it. They declined to allow this. Does anyone remember
a book like this? I imagine it was published in the 1950's since
the sci-fi is primative and everyone was writting about space then.
I would really appreciate help on this.
BTW the ST Louis public TV station ran all three hours of The Lion
the Witch and the Wardrobe last Sunday night. I taped it. The
children loved it.
Beth Mattson
Jonathan Wesener
> In some
>ways I think I enjoyed this type of fantasy more then the more adult type
>fantasy I read now simply because it was so light. I like the Narnia books
>quite a bit but I liked others a lot more, especially the set by Lloyd
>Alexander (Black Cauldron, Taran Wanderer, High King, etc.
>
>-- S. Beck
One of my all time favorite fantasy stories is _The_Face_in_the_Frost_ by
John Bellairs(sp?). The story is definitely for children but I must
have reread it 10 times and it STILL gives me the creeps! I'll have to
look for some of these others, now! He's also written some other good
childrens fantasy dealing with black magic but I can't remember there
names.
jojo
--
{pacbell|ctnews|mordor|sgi|ernie|amdahl}!key!jojo
David Albert
>
>I enjoyed the Tripod trilogy by Christopher John (John Christopher?)
>Well, I remebered that I enjoyed them. Can't remeber the titles (or the
>author, apparently).
John Christopher wrote several trilogies and single books for children
in the fantasy/science-fiction mode, most of them lots of fun and
easy to read. Here's a list (from the "other books by" page of his
latest book); a "*" means I've read it. I like everything I've read
by him, but some books more than others. My favorites are the first
three books of the Tripod trilogy (his latest, a prequel to his original
trilogy, isn't all that great) and The Guardians.
The Tripod Trilogy
*The White Mountains
*The City of Gold and Lead
*The Pool of Fire
*[new 1988 book: The Day the Tripods Came]
The Sword Trilogy
*The Prince in Waiting
*Beyond the Burning Lands
*The Sword of the Spirits
The Fireball Trilogy
Fireball
New Found Land
Dragon Dance
*The Lotus Caves
*The Guardians
Dom and Va
Wild Jack
Empty World
The Long Winter
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Albert |"I want to go home," thought Ender.
UUCP: ...!harvard!albert |"But I don't know where that is."
INTERNET: alb...@harvard.edu |
Beth Kevles
Actually, I still go through the bookstores and libraries searching for
good children's fantasy. There's a lot out there - some that I read
when I was growing up, and some fresh and new. For the avid children's
fantasy reader, here's a short list of some of the good ones:
The Narnia Chronicles - CS Lewis
A Wrinkle in Time - Madeline L'Engle
The Wolves of Willoughby Chase - Joan Aiken
The House at Greene Knowe - LM Boston
Half Magic - Edward Eager
The Book of Three - Lloyd Alexander
The Dark is Rising - Susan Cooper
The Changes series - Peter Dickinson
various - Alan Garner
the Lioness books - Tamora Pierce
various - Molly Hunter
various - Diana Wynn Jones *** these are my favorites these days ***
Most of these authors have written more than one book, and more than one
series. And, of course, this is just the short, top-of-my-head list.
Happy reading!
--beth
John Leo
school, and I'd bet I'd still enjoy it now. It has perhaps the best
mixture of horror and humor of any book I've read. I was delighted to
find out he had written "The House with a Clock in its Walls," one of my
favorite books when a child.
But I have a question. I read another book at about the same time, and
have been unable to locate it since. I only remember a few things about
it, but perhaps people will recall the title and author. I think the
hero was a boy named Daniel, and there was some song with that name in
it that was whistled or sang or something. Two frightening places in
the story were a causeway (maybe he went inside it at some point) and
the surrounding swamplands, which had things called "honeypots" that
sucked people inside. Sound familiar?
Another story I loved but couldn't find (and believe me once I looked at
every book in the children's part of a library and asked librarians trying
to find these two books) was about a boy and his grandfather who were
always making up word games and so forth for each other. Not exactly
fantasy, but a really fun book. I still remember the poem that goes
from A to Z (and there was another from Z to A):
"`Alvin Baker carries dollars every Friday,' gunman hollers. `In-his
jacket's keeping lies money neatly organized.' Pistols-poised quick
robbers steal, those unfair villians with xanthic (yellow) zeal."
Anyone remember this one?
Shumi wa nandesuka, sensei. `/ / | | John Leo
--- Oreka? Benkyou o oshierukoto dayo. | --|-- l...@tds.lcs.mit.edu
Iyanaseikaku desune. \ / --| / . | / /| l...@athena.mit.edu
--- Omae no shumi wa nandayo. -| / | / / |
Benkyou o osowarukoto desu. --| \/ \/ / \| (Kazoku Geemu)
Cindy Tittle
|In article <x> geo...@webb.psych.ufl.edu (Stephanie George) writes:
|>
|>I enjoyed the Tripod trilogy by Christopher John (John Christopher?)
|>Well, I remebered that I enjoyed them. Can't remeber the titles (or the
|>author, apparently).
|
|John Christopher wrote several trilogies and single books for children
|in the fantasy/science-fiction mode, most of them lots of fun and
|easy to read. Here's a list (from the "other books by" page of his
|latest book); a "*" means I've read it. I like everything I've read
|by him, but some books more than others. My favorites are the first
|three books of the Tripod trilogy (his latest, a prequel to his original
|trilogy, isn't all that great) and The Guardians.
[List deleted]
I'm curious. I always thought that there was this story that
Christopher wrote concerning a post-disaster (he doesn't make it clear
what the disaster was) world in which people live underground in
caves, regulated by computers. There were two children, Arabelle (or
something like that) who was "disappeared" for her non-conformist ways
(she would sing), and Fernfeather (all the people in the caves have
botanical names), who becomes curious about her fate, and starts
investigating. There was a song in this book that the girl made up
that I remember:
"Fernfeather run, Fernfeather jump
In the lightest of the light
Run far, run wide..."
(Something like that, any way.) The point was, for a long time, I
thought that was the Lotus Caves, but I know now that's not the case.
However, there weren't any books in this Christopher list that
triggered my memory. Was this book by Christopher or someone else?
Any clues? Thanks,
--Cindy
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A difference which makes no \ | UUCP: {sdcsvax|ucbvax}!ucivax!tittle
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Alan Filipski
>readers people liked and still go back and reread?
Ursula LeGuin's "Wizard of Earthsea", a beautiful book. I believe it won
some award for "young people's literature", although it seems to have rather
age-independent appeal. I was 35 when I first read it. It is the first
book of a trilogy, and, in my opinion, the best. It's short, not voluminous
like some fantasy works mentioned.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
( Alan Filipski, GTX Corp, 8836 N. 23rd Avenue, Phoenix, Arizona 85021, USA )
( {decvax,hplabs,uunet!amdahl,nsc}!sun!sunburn!gtx!al (602)870-1696 )
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Cindy Tittle
I got two mail responses indicating that the last book I asked
about in my YABR (about an alternate resource hungry world planning
to invade this one) was most likely "Earth Times Two" by Pamela
Reynolds.
Thanks much for your help, I'll be trying to track it down now
(such fun!).
Jeffrey Youngstrom
Anne McCaffrey's Harper hall trilogy (_Dragonsong_,
_Dragonsinger_, _Dragondrums_) is a pretty good one with
fairly strong adolescent appeal. Not great literature,
but fun reading.
Also a second vote for _A Wizard of Earthsea_ and don't
forget that this too is the first book of a trilogy.
(_The Tombs of Atuan_, and _The Farthest Shore_)
And just since it's a great adolescent book, another
LeGuin: _Very Far Away From Anywhere Else_. Another
LeGuin written for this age group is _The Beginning Place_,
but don't bother. It's awful. See LeGuin's review of
it reprinted in last year's _Dancing at the Edge of the
World_ (I think that's right, but I may be confusing it
with another of her books), a compilation of various of
her feminist, travel, and critical writings.
all for now...
jeffy
Is my LeGuin bias showing? :-)
--
...!{decwrl,sun}!teraida!jeffy or je...@altair.csustan.edu
Read it in the books in the crannies and the nooks there are books to read
Christine Kendell
Garner and William Mayne, both contemporary British writers. Alan
Garner writes powerfully about the mingling of the present and the
past, often using myths and legends. I didn't come across his
books until I was grown up, but remember being quite badly
frightened by _Red Shift_ which I think is his most recent.
Strong meat.
William Mayne writes fantasy which is generally considered too
"difficult" for children. This may be why he is not very
prolific, or, to my knowledge, well known.
Penelope Lively, who also writes for adults, has what amounts to
an obsession with time - how the past and present intermingle and
slip around. (Her adult novels deal with this theme, too.)
Generally the protagonist travels back in time, but it's all done
quite subtly.
--
/----------------------------------------------------------------------------\
| Christine Kendell | <cken...@tcom.stc.co.uk> |
| This Space Awaiting Redevelopment | ..uunet!mcvax!ukc!stc!tcom!ckendell |
\----------------------------------------------------------------------------/
Elizabeth Lear
I might as well jump on the request bandwagon and ask this of you all:
As a child I read a variation on the Cinderella story called something
like "The Three Acorns". Instead of a fairy godmother, there was a
talking owl in the attic who gave the girl 3 acorns. When she cracked
the first acorn there was a hunting outfit: she then followed the
prince's hunting party and joined them to answer the challenge to
shoot any target. She carried a crossbow, and shot something
incredibly small and far away to win a ring from the prince. Then she
ran away. Naturally, the prince was immediately taken with her and
held a ball to try to find her. The girl cracked the second acorn,
and it contained a ball gown, so she went to the dance and charmed the
prince still more. I can't remember how the prince followed her, but
he found her and when she cracked the third acorn it was a wedding
dress.
I know I read this somewhere, and then I was completely delighted to
see it shown on the CBS Playhouse that used to air on Sunday mornings,
I think. Anyway, I have read-and-reread all of the fairy tale books I
could find in my parents' house (and anywhere else), but I can't find
it. Could anyone give me a pointer to where I might relocate it?
Toki Noguchi
I like the Narnia books and the Lloyd Alexander series, The
Prydain Cycle. Below is a listing of other children's fantasy
that I periodically reread.
Lloyd Alexander The First Two Lives of Lukas Kasha
Edward Eager Half Magic, Knight's Castle, etc.
E. Nesbit The Story of the Amulet, etc.
John Masefield The Box of Delights, etc.
Diana Wynne Jones The Magicians of Caprona, etc.
Alan Garner The Wierdstone of Brisingamen, etc.
Rudyard Kipling Puck of Pook's Hill
Norman Juster The Phantom Tollbooth
Many of these books seemed to get better when I reread them as
an adult (especially the English ones), I think because I didn't
understand all the references as a child. Phantom Tollbooth is
a series of puns and plays on words, I catch different ones every time
I read it again.
Toki Noguchi
HP Santa Rosa, MWTD
Archaeologists date anything!
T.R.Hopkins
well. They are mainly in the Triffids vein (major disaster hardly
anyone alive). They don't seem to be as readily available as they
were when I read them (circa 20 years ago) although I have picked
up a couple of copies second hand recently.
Try:
A wrinkle in the skin
Death of grass
Possessors
World in Winter
Caves of Night
Long Voyage
There are also a couple of SF books but I haven't read them.
Tim Hopkins
--
Tim Hopkins, { t...@ukc.ac.uk
Computing Laboratory, trh%u...@cs.ucl.ac.uk
University of Kent, na.ho...@score.stanford.edu }
Canterbury CT2 7NF, Kent, UK.
Michael McClennen
>I enjoyed the Tripod trilogy by Christopher John (John Christopher?)
>Well, I remebered that I enjoyed them. Can't remeber the titles (or the
Actually, I hated them-- found them both grim and dull, but that's just me.
The author is John Christopher, and the series' title is (I think) The White
Mountains.
kami
Michael McClennen
As a kid, I read above my age. Now I'm older and wiser, and read below it.
Funny, it's a lot of the same stuff...
Favorite juvenile fantasy (mostly British, for some reason...)
*Susan Cooper: The Dark is Rising--series of five, some folklore base,
strict good/evil. Seaward: more abstract/mythical
*Lucy M. Boston: Green Knowe--series, books stand alone, about a house built
in 12th (?) century, lasts to 19th, kids from various times meet. Lovely!
*LLoyd Alexander's "Prydain" books are based on the Welsh myth cycle.
Evangeline Walton did a lovely novelization thereof: The Island of the
Mighty. Speaking of which, what's-her-name Llewellyn sucks!
*Diana Paxton's Westria books are billed as "young adult" for some reason. She's
good and getting better.
*Tamora Pierce: Song of the Lioness--Medievaloid world, priest-recognized
magic and also earth magic. Twins, boy wants to be mage and girl doesn't want
to sit & do needlework, so they switch. She goes to court as page, disguises
sex. Eventually is knighted, admits sex, & discovers friends don't care.
Meanwhile, adventure, fighting & magic.
*Madeleine L'Engle (more SF)-A Wrinkle in Time, The Wind in the Door, etc.
*Ursela K. LeGuin- A Wizard of Earthsea
*Roald Dahl--James and the Giant Peach
*etc. if you want me to keep going, let me know. I'll give you a catalogue
of my library...
kami
the Rev. Mom
I think these are more junior high-geared than
elementary school.
Diane Duane. SO YOU WANT TO BE A WIZARD
DEEP WIZARDRY
Supposedly, the third book in the series is coming out in April.
I've reread both of these at least a dozen times each. I love
them immensely, and I still laugh and cry when I read. The
premise is simple: two kids today manuals and learn to become
wizards. The structure behind the magic is so true and
sure, and *familiar*, and the stories so damn good that one year
I just bought a stack of these and gave them out at Christmas
to everyone without feeling the teensiest bit guilty.
Marie Pope THE PERILOUS GUARD
THE SHERWOOD RING
These are the only two books I know of that Marie Pope has
written. If anybody knows of any more, please tell me!!
These are period romance/fantasy. The first is set in
Elizabethan England, the second in modern day and Revolutionary War
America. Both have a complete feeling to the period, great
characters and a helluva good story. The kind of stuff that
you can live inside.
Robin McKinley BEAUTY
DOOR IN THE HEDGE
THE BLUE SWORD
THE HERO'S CROWN
OUTLAWS OF SHERWOOD
McKinley's a master at taking fairytales and making them come
alive, fleshed into a reality that "created" the legend.
----------
And lest anybody forgot something so extremely fundamental:
L. Frank Baum's OZ books.
--Kathy Li aka the Rev. Mom
--
ka...@fps.com | "For 'tis the sport to have the enginer
ucsd!celerity!kathy | Hoist with his own petar..."
---------------------| HAMLET, III.iv.206-207
Riverside footnotes: Hoist with: blown up by, petar: petard, bomb.
Jan Snyder ~
I'm really looking forward to the third 'WIZARDS' book.
Re Robin McKinley, I have to wax a bit less enthusiastic. I really
enjoyed THE BLUE SWORD, but had problems with OUTLAWS OF SHERWOOD.
Not because of what she did with the characters--I thought she had
some interesting new things to say about them. Unfortunately, she
showed a lamentable tendency toward sloppy writing in several places,
and it drove this writer/editor nuts. I found myself taking a red
pencil to a hardback book for the first time in my memory! This
won't prevent me from reading more McKinley, but if the same thing
keeps happening I might drop a note to her editor. (I liked BEAUTY
too, by the way.)
Guess this was a timely week to send out my posting regarding Jane
Yolen's visit to California (sorry-just gave it ba distribution, so
the rest of the netiverse won't see it). Jane hasn't been mentioned
in this discussion yet, and she's one of my top favorite fantasy/sf
writers. I give copies of her books to little children I want to
corrupt into keeping their sense of wonder past the age of 10. :-)
I don't think I could decide which is my favorite Yolen book, but
here's a list of some you should still be able to find in stores:
OWL MOON (1988 Caldecott winner)
DEVIL'S ARITHMETIC
WHITE JENNA (sequel to SISTER LIGHT, SISTER DARK)
COMMANDER TOAD (series, most still available)
RING OF EARTH
THE GIRL WHO CRIED FLOWERS
PIGGINS (and its sequel)
FAVORITE FOLKTALES OF THE WORLD (large anthology
edited by JY)
I think that's enough. Go enjoy!
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Sallijan Snyder, IntelWriter (408) 629-5909 home robot
Santa Clara, California (408) 765-5444 voicemail
"I don't let my employer take credit for my opinions."
UUCP: {amdcad,decwrl,hplabs,oliveb,pur-ee,qantel}!intelca!mipos3!cadev4!jsnyder
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vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
Mac Horton
Someone mentioned Susan Cooper's _The Dark is Rising_ series.
I'd like to second that recommendation. Ms. Cooper must surely be one
of the best writers _qua_ writer among children's authors. I picked up
one book of this series more or less randomly in the library and read it
and the other four (?) as quickly as I could. These are some of the
most effectively written fantasy works I've ever read.
I do feel that the later books in the series falter as stories,
for reasons similar to the objections others have voiced to C.S. Lewis'
Narnia books. The series is based strongly on various British
mythologies, notably Welsh. The first book is a rather straightforward,
very skillfuly constructed, and quite exciting adventure story with
supernatural elements. There is a hiatus of several years between the
publication of that volume and the next, and there is a distinct
difference. After the first book, I increasingly got the sense of a
drift toward an almost academic explication of comparative mythology,
with a reluctance to bring the myths all the way down to earth in the
way that good fantasy seems to need. It seemed to me that the author
became more interested in the implications of the mythology than in the
stories proper.
Footnote re the Narnia debate:
We hate poetry which has a palpable design upon us.
--Keats
I'm very fond of the Narnia books myself, and am a Christian,
but for me the books are weakest at precisely the point where the
Christian allegory is most straightforward. _The Lion, the Witch, and
the Wardrobe_ seems to me the weakest of the books, despite its terrific
opening; the Aslan sacrifice seems forced onto the story. I like
several of the other books much better, notably _The Voyage of the Dawn
Treader_.
--
Mac Horton @ Intergraph | hor...@ingr.COM | ..uunet!ingr!horton
--
And so our time is fields of sleep
And so our bed is endless deep --Pete Brown
Betsy Perry
>to everyone without feeling the teensiest bit guilty.
>
>Marie Pope THE PERILOUS GUARD
> THE SHERWOOD RING
>
Small correction: the author's name is *Elizabeth* Marie Pope.
I agree that these are wonderful (so does the Newbery committee;
"The Perilous Gard" was a Newbery Honour Book.) I heard, some years ago,
that Pope had died, so these books are all you get. Pity.
Nobody has yet mentioned Zilpha Keatley (sp?) Snyder, author of
"The Egypt Game", among others. Middle-grade fiction about children
with vivid imaginations. Some of her books turn out to have mundane
explanations for the fantasy; others are fantasy to the end.
Andre Norton wrote wonderful children's fantasy; check out
"Lavender-Green Magic" and "Octagon Magic" sometime. I say "wrote" because
I think she's sticking to adult literature nowadays; anybody know different?
Patricia McKillip's "Riddle-master of Hed" trilogy is nominally YA fiction;
I must admit that I hated this trilogy as a child of 13, and only
enjoyed it after I'd grown up. (To the extent that I *have* grown up, any way...)
By contrast, I loved Ursula LeGuin's Earthsea trilogy at the same age.
I cannot recommend these books too highly; LeGuin is one of the best writers
alive, in my opinion.
Other authors to look for : Jane Yolen ("Heart's Blood"),
Patricia Wrede ("Talking to Dragons").
Finally, I'd like to mention two very quirky (nay, strange) writers:
Ellen Raskin, author of "Figgs and Phantoms", "The Westing Game", "The Mysterious
Disappearance of Leon (I mean Noel)", and others. To give you an idea of the
flavor, "Figgs and Phantoms" is about the Figg family's personal paradise.
"Figgs don't die; they just go to <name I forget>." "The Mysterious ..."
is about two children, heirs to the great Pomato Soup Fortune, who are married
at age five to consolidate their families. One child disappears as an adolescent;
the other searches for him when she becomes an adult, using as clues his letters
to her ("Grew a mustache; it's red.") and "the glub-bubs", a series of garbled
sentences gasped out by a drowning man.
"Leon (glub) See(glub) ; I (glub) New (blub) (blub)" (or words to that effect.)
Full of puns and outrageous humor.
Daniel Pinkwater, author of "The Magic Moscow", "Alan Mendelssohn, the Boy from Mars",
"The Snarkout Boys and the Avocado of Death", "The Hoboken Chicken Emergency",
National Public Radio commentator, and writer for the comic strip "Norb".
A friend of mine once described Pinkwater as "Philip K. Dick for kids".
In Pinkwater books, the weird is normal; you are constantly meeting dancing
chickens, submarines shaped like pigs, avocadoes of death, and the like.
I think these books are hilarious; some people disapprove of them.
Pinkwater has a deadly-accurate memory for the kid's viewpoint of authority figures.
Betsy Perry bet...@apollo.com
Apollo Division, Hewlett-Packard, Inc.
(her opinion doesn't matter, matter, matter, matter...)
philip s goetz
>The point that I'm trying to make is that fantasy by its very nature
>is meant to be a somewhat idealistic pursuit. Things are usually
>painted in black and white. And who else but a child is perfect in
>understanding and placing the world into mostly two extremes.
>Recently, I have been rereading Tolkien's work and have found that
>some of the magic is lost. However, in this reading, I have
>discovered Tolkien's ability to create lore and legend of epic
>proportions.
>
>Michael
Whenever I read fantasy, I'm bothered by the clear-cut good/evil
setup. This includes Lewis, Tolkien, Alexander, Cooper, etc. I don't
think it would include Chesterton's _The Man who was Thursday_, though I
don't know why on principle. Perhaps because the characters were so
muddled in everything they did. Nor does it include Milton, because he's
dealing up front with Christian stories which
A) portray spiritual entities as being good/evil, and it is easier for me
to imagine spirits as being like this than humans
B) are so much a part of my culture that I couldn't get upset about them
anyway.
(For a particularly bad example of the good/evil white/black imbecility,
see _This Present Darkness_, which as I read it seems to be a good book,
certainly well-written.)
Is all fantasy written this way? Would anybody _like_ to see morally
ambiguous fantasy - not indifferent, like, perhaps, _Dune_, but one where
the characters attempt to do the right thing but may be deluded, or where
both sides on the conflict have some moral imperative driving them, etc.?
I for one would be fascinated to have seen a serious re-writing of _The
Lords of the Ring_ to give us a real Orcish culture, or to see what would
happen if an orc attempted to befriend an elf.
Would this kind of intelligent thinking ruin fantasy? I remember
Lloyd Alexander tried something of the sort in _The Kestrel_ (the sequel
to _Westmark_), in which the Kestrel wonders if the revolution he is in
is worth the price in human lives, and if it is changing him into a monster.
It didn't work very well for me.
Phil Goetz
go...@cs.buffalo.edu or V373...@UBVMS.bitnet
"Since I gave up hope, I feel a lot better." - Steve Taylor
philip s goetz
mean, anyway? I remember I saw it referred to over and over again in SF
literature, so I finally read it, was not impressed, and still see it referred
to frequently. I forget the storyline.
This question came to my mind again this month after reading a short story
by LeGuin, "Winter's King", in a collection of truly great science fiction
short stories. It was set in the same world as TLHOD, and impressed me
mainly as being a dull, pointless, totally unoriginal story in a book full
of incredible stories.
I hope LeGuin doesn't read this newsgroup... I really loved her story
"Those Who Walk Away from Omelas".
Phil Goetz
go...@cs.buffalo.edu
"Since I gave up hope, I feel a lot better." - Steve Taylor
Send me your .signature files! I am compiling a list.
USENET News System
>setup. This includes Lewis, Tolkien, Alexander, Cooper, etc. I don't
>think it would include Chesterton's _The Man who was Thursday_, though I
>don't know why on principle.
>ambiguous fantasy - not indifferent, like, perhaps, _Dune_, but one where
>the characters attempt to do the right thing but may be deluded, or where
>both sides on the conflict have some moral imperative driving them, etc.?
From: st...@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Gavin Steyn)
Path: eniac.seas.upenn.edu!steyn
I think there's a lot of ambiguous fantasy; you just have to look in the
right places. Tanith Lee's _Tales of the Flat Earth_ tell stories from the
point of view of the lords of evil, death, and delusion. There's no attempt
to make their actions palatable either. Nevertheless, because they oc-
casionally do things for the good, one can't simply condemn the main char-
acters.
Michael Moorcock's stories of the eternal champion also have ambiguous
heroes to one degree or another (particularly the stories of Jerry Cornelius
and of Elric). These heroes often perform objectionable actions for what
they think is the right cause, but they're often wrong, and are left with
just the consequences of their actions and nothing to show.
I'm sure others can provide more examples (another really good one just
came to mind; _Wyrldmaker_, by an Terry Bisson, has a main character who
is rather amoral. It's also an excellent book). It's just that there are
a number of influences on fantasy which contain the good/evil dichotomy,
such as myths.
Gavin Steyn
st...@eniac.seas.upenn.edu
Joseph Poirier
> Is all fantasy written this way? Would anybody _like_ to see morally
>ambiguous fantasy - not indifferent, like, perhaps, _Dune_, but one where
>the characters attempt to do the right thing but may be deluded, or where
>both sides on the conflict have some moral imperative driving them, etc.?
>
Steven Donaldson's "Chronicles of Thomas Covenant" (two trilogies),
which I thought were good (for the most part), have characters which
as not as black and white as other fantasy novels. The main character
himself is painted in various shades of grey. For instance, he saves
the world (or at least is a factor), but he also commits rape. I think
the first trilogy is written well, with the second and third books
being better than the first. The first book of the second trilogy,
"The Wounded Land", is excellent -- Covenant comes back to the Land
after 3 thousand years... but the other two books drag a bit, especially
"The One Tree".
Donaldson does have a tendency to throw in a lot of detail into his
books, but sometimes for me that tends to water them down and make them
drag. "The Mirror of Her Dreams" (or close to that) really really drags.
As an aside, I have read through to halfway of book four of David
Eddings' Belgariad Chronicles. They really seem inane at times.
Some of the things he has the characters say seem goofy. He makes
a good attempt of exploring the world, but some places of the series
seem to be written blandly or with the usual stereotypical-fantasy
slant. Everyone here - except maybe Silk and Relg - are painted in
terms of black and white.
Can anyone point out a fantasy novel which has the usual elements
of swords, sorcery and magic, but portrays the Bad Guys in a different
light? The foe's legions always seems to be goblins of some sort,
who live in vile places, reeking of garbage and mud and slop, who
always have names like Yakshul or Garblac or Warglung. For once I'd
like to read a stereotypical fantasy novel where the Bad Guy lives
in a beautiful place, with a lot of light rather than darkness, and
with names like Illinea or Ferrmir or something less obviously
evil.
--
Joseph Poirier
a...@mentor.cc.purdue.edu pur-ee!mentor.cc.purdue.edu!ach POIRIER@PURCCVM
"You know what I hate? Rhetorical questions, that's what I hate!"
Heather Corbett
The Narnia series was amazing; C.S. Lewis also wrote some adult
science-fiction, one of a trilogy (I think) was called _Perelandra_ and
another I think was _Out_Of_The_Silent_Planet_ - though I could be wrong.
A good friend of Lewis Carroll was George MacDonald, whose short
stories are as serious and delightful as _The_Princess_And_The_Curdie_ and
others in that line. There is a cheap collection of those stories, like
"The Golden Key" and "The Light Princess" available under the creative
title of _The_Collected_Works_Of... . For the adult reader, I also recommend
Lilith. If you don't like allegory, avoid MacDonald, but I find him clever
and amusing the way I do Lewis and Carroll.
Lastly, surely you all have not neglected Madeleine L'Engle? Or maybe
you were too old for her. :) She wrote a direct trilogy starting with _A_
Wrinkle_In_Time and ending with _A_Swiftly_Turning_Planet_; her other books
at least mention the characters in that trilogy in a very neat thread that
I was delighted to follow - there was _The_Arm_Of_The_Starfish_, and _The-
Young_Unicorns_, among those I remember.
Ok, that was not lastly. E. Nesbit wrote a lot of books, and not all
of them children's! The ones I've read offhand are _The_Railway_Children_,
_Five_Children_And_It_, something with an Amulet, _The_Phoenix_And_The_Carpet_,
and (I think) _The_Barnstable_Children_ (or maybe it's the tales, or
adventures, rather than children). She was quite a feminist for her time,
had a lovely childhood and lots of her own kids, a husband who adored her
and a life that was the sunshine equivalent of Virginia Woolf's gloomy one.
Highly recommended.
Hope I have not been repetitious!!
faithful reader (Heather)
Peter Cash
> Whenever I read fantasy, I'm bothered by the clear-cut good/evil
>setup. This includes Lewis, Tolkien, Alexander, Cooper, etc. ...
> Is all fantasy written this way? Would anybody _like_ to see morally
>ambiguous fantasy - not indifferent, like, perhaps, _Dune_, but one where
>the characters attempt to do the right thing but may be deluded, or where
>both sides on the conflict have some moral imperative driving them, etc.?
>I for one would be fascinated to have seen a serious re-writing of _The
>Lords of the Ring_ to give us a real Orcish culture, or to see what would
>happen if an orc attempted to befriend an elf.
> Would this kind of intelligent thinking ruin fantasy?
>Phil Goetz
Well Phil, it sounds like what you want is real life, and not fantasy.
Life is full of moral ambiguity and confusion, and so is the literature
that tries to closely mirror life. It's only in the realm of fantasy that
we can ever come across pure good and evil.
I can think of one work that might meet your criteria: _The Worm Ouroboros_
by E.R. Eddison. It's a complex tale about complex characters, and none of
them is entirely good (though one is clearly evil throughout). The
protagonists are English gentlemen writ large--they are proud,
quick-tembered, and prize a good, clean fight above all. They also care
very little for the fate of the common men who follow them. The most
appealing character in the book--Lord Gro--is a traitor who changes sides
three times in the book. (Some people just can't make up their minds.)
Some who have read the book--or tried to--tell me that they find the style
inaccessible. The language of the book *is* archaic--but it is deliberate
and well-executed archaism; there is a Shakespearean ring to Eddison's
prose. In addition, the archaism gives a historical texture to the work
that enhances its believability and depth.
You won't enjoy the book if you pay too much attention to the superficial
plot devices that Eddison uses. For example, he feels compelled to give an
explanation of how the narrator comes to witness the events in the
book--which purportedly take place on Mercury (though it strikes me more as
an idealized version of the Balkan peninsula). To provide this
rationalization, Eddison introduces a character at the beginning of the
book who is transported to "Mercury" in a dream, and who then starts to
narrate the story. Fortunately, this narrator soon drops out of the book,
never to reappear.
And then too, one can't be bothered by the fact that Eddison uses names
like "Witches", "Demons", and "Goblins" to refer to the various folk that
are at war in this story. It's as though Eddison couldn't be bothered with
thinking up new names for these creatures, or as though he were using these
as placeholders until he could think up better ones--but never got around
to it.
That _The Worm Ouroboros_ is a remarkable story despite these egregious
flaws is a tribute to Eddison's command of the language and power as a
storyteller.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| Die Welt ist alles, was Zerfall ist. |
Peter Cash | (apologies to Ludwig Wittgenstein) | cash@convex
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Matthew J. Henken
>ambiguous fantasy - not indifferent, like, perhaps, _Dune_, but one where
>the characters attempt to do the right thing but may be deluded, or where
>both sides on the conflict have some moral imperative driving them, etc.?
>I for one would be fascinated to have seen a serious re-writing of _The
>Lords of the Ring_ to give us a real Orcish culture, or to see what would
>happen if an orc attempted to befriend an elf.
I strongly recommend Stephen Donaldson's Chronicles of Thomas Covenant for
morally divided/tortured/introspective character. The character is an anti-
hero of significant complexity: for example, the name he is given is "The
Unbeliever" to sum up his incredulity and constant challenging of those moral
tasks taken so lightly in lesser fantasy works. I read them when they first
came out, found them fascinating, and still find the character so. By the way,
the first trilogy (of two) contains (in order): Lord Foul's Bane, The Illearth
War, and The Power that Preserves. The second trilogy: The Wounded Land,
The One Tree, and White Gold Wielder.
I would be interested in hearing what others who have read the two chronicles
have to say about them. You can post the answer or e-mail me at:
m...@eleazar.dartmouth.edu
--
"Basic error: to place the goal in the herd and not in single individuals! The
herd is a means, no more! But now one is attempting to understand the herd as an
individual and to ascribe to it a higher rank than to the individual--profound
misunderstanding!!!" --Friedrich Nietzsche/Matt Henken m...@eleazar.dartmouth.edu
Jamie Andrews
I think it's like the use of magic in fantasy. We can read
about a world in which magic works without necessarily believing
that it works in our world. Similarly, we can read about a
world in which good and evil are clear-cut without necessarily
believing that it is that way in the real world. We can still
get something out of the book, of course; for instance, we might
think of magic as corresponding to great knowledge or skill, and
we might not interpret characters in the book as corresponding
to characters in real life, but rather to different aspects of
our own nature.
I guess clear-cut good and evil is more pernicious because
there is a temptation to think of people in real life as Good
("my wonderful girlfriend", etc.) or Evil ("my bastard boss",
etc.), while we're not usually tempted to think that magic
works in real life. I guess writers have to assume that readers
have found out from somewhere else that real people aren't
really as clear-cut as this.
> This includes Lewis, Tolkien, Alexander, Cooper, etc.
I differ with you on this point (regarding Tolkien's works,
at least), and I think Tolkien would have too. There are *no*
characters in _The Lord of the Rings_ that are completely good;
even Elrond and Galadriel have pasts of great arrogance and
pride against the will of the Valar. Similarly, there are no
characters that are completely rotten; Tolkien is at pains to
point out that the Orcs are generally at least brave and
valiant, and there's even the suggestion that Sauron may have
been repentant at one time in his past.
>I for one would be fascinated to have seen a serious re-writing of _The
>Lords of the Ring_ to give us a real Orcish culture, or to see what would
>happen if an orc attempted to befriend an elf.
That would be interesting, but it wouldn't be the same kind
of story, about the same kinds of things.
> Would this kind of intelligent thinking ruin fantasy?
I don't think that this thinking is *more* intelligent than
that standard kind, but yes, I think it would change radically
the thrust of the fantasy story -- not necessarily for the good.
--Jamie.
j...@lfcs.ed.ac.uk
Copyright (c) 1990 by Jamie Andrews;
for redistribution only on unmoderated USENET newsgroups.
Gordon E. Banks
it is clear what side the reader is expected to be on vis a vis
the Hobbits vs. Sauron, aside from Sauron and his wraiths, there
are few characters who are unambiguous morally, even Frodo.
In addition, there are characters who exhibit enough ambiguity that
it is difficult to decide where to place them, the most obvious being
Boromir, (and Denethor), but the most important being Gollum.
Morally ambiguous characters (or should we say, fatally flawed heroes)
are most characteristic of Tolkien's other work. Turin Turumbar is
a good example: a hero to be sure but one whose heroic acts themselves
turn on him and ruin him and those he touches and loves. Consider
the Noldor, for example. In the Silmarillion, the elves are not
angels, neither are the Numenoreans. There are devils, it is true.
Clearly Tolkien depicts unambiguous evil (although all of his evil
characters are corrupted, and not innately evil). Rarely do we see
unalloyed good.
Brian Yamauchi
>setup. This includes Lewis, Tolkien, Alexander, Cooper, etc.
> Is all fantasy written this way? Would anybody _like_ to see morally
>ambiguous fantasy
I would highly recommend that you try Roger Zelazny's Chronicles of
Amber, especially the first series:
Nine Princes in Amber
The Guns of Avalon
Sign of the Unicorn
The Hand of Oberon
The Courts of Chaos
I'm not a big fan of fantasy -- at least partly because of the
tendency toward simplistic, moralistic, and predictable Good vs. Evil
conflicts, but my roommate freshman year in college introduced me to
the series. "Just read the first page," he said. I did, and I was
hooked, going through the entire series in about a week.
Without giving away too much of the plot, the story deals with
alternate universes and the members of a royal family ruling one
alternate world (Amber) who have the ability to travel at will between
these universes (in addition to other powers).
Minor spoilers follow:
The protagonist of the story, Corwin, is a prince in the Royal Family
of Amber. Even though he has many of the traditional heroic
characteristics -- courage, intelligence, charm, and a sense of
personal honor, he doesn't have the cliche fantasy motivations "save
the kingdom from the hordes of evil", "rescue the princess from the
dragon's lair", etc. Corwin is after two things (at least to start
with) -- power and revenge.
His primary antagonists are not grotesque, evil creatures, but his own
brothers and sisters -- all of whom share his powers and most of whom
share his ambition and intelligence. It is unclear who is on Corwin's
side and who is against him as the alliances are constantly shifting
and the players are constantly maneuvering for an advantage.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Brian Yamauchi University of Rochester
yama...@cs.rochester.edu Computer Science Department
_______________________________________________________________________________
Glenn P Hoetker
repititious. The Dark is Rising sequence by Susan Cooper is a truly
wonderful example of this sort of book. I would suggest starting with
the second book and only later, if ever, bothering with the first (a
real exception to the quality of the rest of the series.) They are
Over Sea, Under Stone
The Dark Is Rising
Greenwitch
The Grey King (Newberry award winner)
Silver On the Tree
--
Glenn Hoetker
University of Illinois, Graduate School of Library and Information Science
g-ho...@uiuc.edu -or- ghoetker@UIUCVMD
The Dread Pirate Roberts
} Lastly, surely you all have not neglected Madeleine L'Engle? Or maybe
} you were too old for her. :) She wrote a direct trilogy starting with
} _A_ Wrinkle_In_Time and ending with _A_Swiftly_Turning_Planet_ [...]
Actually, it's a quartet, with the fourth book being MANY WATERS.
} [...] her other books at least mention the characters in that trilogy
} in a very neat thread that I was delighted to follow - there was
} _The_Arm_Of_The_Starfish_, and _The_Young_Unicorns_, among those I
} remember.
THE ARM OF THE STARFISH is one of four books that involves the children,
mostly the eldest one, Poly, of Meg Murry and Charles O'Keeffe from the
other books. The other three are DRAGONS IN THE WATERS, A HOUSE LIKE A
LOTUS, and her newest one, just published a month or so ago, AN ACCEPTABLE
TIME (which also deals with time travel).
THE YOUNG UNICORNS is part of yet another series about a different family,
the Austins, which is tangentially connected to the Murry/O'Keeffe books
through the appearances of various supporting characters. One *very*
notable sf/fantasy from this series -- and my very favorite of L'Engle's
books -- is A RING OF ENDLESS LIGHT.
In fact, virtually *all* of L'Engle's fiction is interconnected in one
way or another. There are only, let's see...two novels I can think of
(ILSA and THE LOVE LETTERS) in which there is no apparent connection to
any of the other books.
And this reminds me to point out another set of books that should appeal
to anyone who likes children's fantasy. Though they were published as
regular "adult" fantasy novels, and didn't get very much notice, I think
they would've gotten a lot more notice if they'd been published as
"young adult" novels. They are a trilogy (of sorts -- they're actually
a two-volume novel and a sequel) by Pamela C. Dean:
THE SECRET COUNTRY
THE HIDDEN LAND
THE WHIM OF THE DRAGON
They are, unfortunately, not all that easy to find, but they are worth
the effort. I should confess that I'm biased in this, as Pamela is a
very near and dear friend of mine, but they really *are* wonderful books.
--
"Ben, this whole idea sounds pretty half-baked."
"No, it's not. It's completely baked."
--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, "The Mill", Maynard, MA)
UUCP: ...!decwrl!ruby.enet.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA: boyajian%ruby...@DECWRL.DEC.COM
Marc S. Jensen
(Philip Goetz) comments on the too clear-cut distinction between good and
evil in most fantasy/SF literature.
This is true, but only to a limited extent. Although _The Lord of the Rings_
by Tolkien is clearly presented in a clearcut good-and-evil perspective,
the characters themselves are not so unambiguous. Someone mentioned the cases
of Boromir, Denethor, and Gollum/Smeagol, which are the most obvious and
important ones. I agree with this person, and with the others making a
similar point.
In later replies to that same message, a lot of people have posted a variety
of comments and suggested titles. The following are my comments on some of
these comments.
- Mention was made that the _Chronicles of Thomas Covenant_ were *not*
a clear case of good vs evil, and this is certainly true. However, I do
not think this is exclusively beneficial. Although Stephen R. Donaldson
has an excellent vocabulary and great style, the Covenant books are
too convoluted... He spends too much time detailing the non-goodness of
the main character, his self-loathing, cynicism, etc., and I think the
result is just a poorly written series.
- Michael Moorcock's books, particularly the _Elric_ series was mentioned
in a similar message... In my opionion, this series starts out in a very
promising manner -- book one is incredible! -- but rapidly declines. Like
Donaldson, Moorcook over-emphasizes the evil aspects of the main character,
Elric in this case, which gets monotonous after a while. The books are
very well-written, though, and I recommend them to anyone, regardless of
how you feel about the too-obvious-good-vs-evil problem.
- Zelazny's _Chronicles of Amber_ were also brought up. I *liked* these,
although they were not as well-written as the previous two series. Every
now and then, I get the impression that these were treated by Zelazny as
a kind of "afternoon project," and they just aren't as finished and
polished as they could be.
- Someone mentioned their disappointment with _The Belgariad_ by David
Eddings. While I agree that a lot of the characters are too clear-cut
and unambiguous. However, and this is the main reason I *really* like
this series, *all* the characters are defined... Every character, even
minor ones that don't play much part in the story, has a definite and
characteristic personality. More importantly, all the personalities are
"real" -- no exaggerated heroism, cleverness, or any of those other traits
that typical hero-characters seem to possess in abundant quantities. (like
Conan and Rambo...)
Also, I have a suggestion of my own. This is a historical fantasy, which is
not a genre I usually read at all. The book is _Maori_ by Allan Dean Foster,
and is, I think, excellent. Those of you that have been crying out demanging
not-too-good main characters are going to love this... (Warning: This one
is about real people and real events, though dramatized a bit... If you're
used to fantastic fantasy, you probably won't like it.)
Finally, Piers Anthony's _For Love of Evil_ is fairly interesting, although
written in Anthony's usual annoying style.
Marc S. Jensen
mje...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu
David Lee Matuszek
> Whenever I read fantasy, I'm bothered by the clear-cut good/evil
>setup.
Fantasy is for fun, and nice clear-cut divisions make for good light
reading. With clear distinctions, it's easier to enlist the reader's
sympathies. I suspect it's also a lot easier to write.
I'm rather turned off by the notion of a war between absolute good and
absolute evil, e.g. the Narnia books and, to some extent, Tolkien.
While I've enjoyed these books, I have more fun reading the Kedrigan
books (author?) and Jane Yolen's books (and I have to mention Terry
Pratchett's books, which I find hilarious). There may be evil
characters in these books, but they are "locally evil," not the
personification of Evil Incarnate.
> Would anybody _like_ to see morally
>ambiguous fantasy - not indifferent, like, perhaps, _Dune_, but one where
>the characters attempt to do the right thing but may be deluded, or where
>both sides on the conflict have some moral imperative driving them, etc.?
Yes, very much so. However, I wouldn't want "serious fantasy" to
entirely displace "light fantasy." There's room enough for both kinds.
> Would this kind of intelligent thinking ruin fantasy?
Only if it drives out light fantasy.
> I remember
>Lloyd Alexander tried something of the sort in _The Kestrel_ (the sequel
>to _Westmark_), in which the Kestrel wonders if the revolution he is in
>is worth the price in human lives, and if it is changing him into a monster.
>It didn't work very well for me.
This sounds a little different to me: soul-searching, as opposed to
conflicts where both (or all) sides suppose themselves to be the good
guys. (I haven't read The Kestrel, so I'm reacting to your
description.)
Again, I think it's more difficult to make fiction work when the
reader isn't clear which side s/he's supposed to be on. But I find it
hard to credit an opponent who is evil just because he's Evil;
antagonists who are normal people but are wrong-headed, mistaken, or
just indifferent, are a lot more convincing.
-- Dave Matuszek (da...@prc.unisys.com)
-- Unisys Corp. / Paoli Research Center / PO Box 517 / Paoli PA 19301
-- Any resemblance between my opinions and those of my employer is improbable.
<< Those who fail to learn from Unix are doomed to repeat it. >>
James Rankin
> Whenever I read fantasy, I'm bothered by the clear-cut good/evil
>setup. This includes Lewis, Tolkien, Alexander, Cooper, etc. I don't
>think it would include Chesterton's _The Man who was Thursday_, though I
>don't know why on principle.
> Is all fantasy written this way? Would anybody _like_ to see morally
>ambiguous fantasy - not indifferent, like, perhaps, _Dune_, but one where
>the characters attempt to do the right thing but may be deluded, or where
>both sides on the conflict have some moral imperative driving them, etc.?
An obvious example of this is Donaldson's Thomas Covenant books.
Thomas Covenant is a leper who, to survive, must lead a very disciplined,
rational life. He has lost his wife and kids and has almost no
interaction with other people, even though his condition is not
contagious(sp?).
Then, boom, he's hit by a car and ends up in another world where magic
works and his White Gold wedding ring marks him as the Land's saviour,
except, he can't let himself even believe this place is real for
fear of losing the mental discipline that let's him keep his disease in
check and stay alive, which leads him to acting like a total jerk
every once in a while.
Great books.
-jimbo
Michael Larsen
>
>I can think of one work that might meet your criteria: _The Worm Ouroboros_
>by E.R. Eddison. It's a complex tale about complex characters, and none of
>them is entirely good (though one is clearly evil throughout). The
>protagonists are English gentlemen writ large--they are proud,
>quick-tembered, and prize a good, clean fight above all. They also care
>very little for the fate of the common men who follow them. The most
>appealing character in the book--Lord Gro--is a traitor who changes sides
>three times in the book. (Some people just can't make up their minds.)
>
aristocratic standards. Lord Gro is, indeed, a fascinating character,
and readers seem to prefer him to the lords of Demonland, but I suspect
that (the rather loathsome) Brandoch Daha was Eddison's own favorite.
>Some who have read the book--or tried to--tell me that they find the style
>inaccessible. The language of the book *is* archaic--but it is deliberate
>and well-executed archaism; there is a Shakespearean ring to Eddison's
>prose.
>
To my ear, his target date is slightly later, though the Elizabethan
and Jacobean playwrights are certainly influences. He is not above
direct thefts from 17th century authors, but he is also capable of
minting new 300-year old idioms like "as honest a man as any in a pack
of cards, if the kings were out."
The Worm is marvelous but in my (heterodox) opinion, the Zimiamvia
trilogy (Mistress of Mistresses, A Fish Dinner in Memison, The Mezentian Gate)
is better still.
-Michael Larsen
Jamie Andrews
>As far as I can tell, Lord Juss & Co. are entirely good by Eddison's peculiar,
>aristocratic standards.
I agree, other than that Spitfire is pretty hot-tempered
and as a result doesn't get many pages devoted to him.
> Lord Gro is, indeed, a fascinating character,
>and readers seem to prefer him to the lords of Demonland, but I suspect
>that (the rather loathsome) Brandoch Daha was Eddison's own favorite.
I didn't think B.D. was loathsome! (so there :-))
This is a great point to bring in my pet theory about Juss
& Co. in _Ouroboros_ -- that each of them corresponds to one of
the Four Humours of medieval philosophy/medicine.
Juss = phlegmatic (magical powers, reason)
Goldry Bluszco = sanguine (strength, heart motif on clothes)
Spitfire = choleric (quick-tempered)
Brandoch Daha = melancholic (lazy humour, etc.)
This is such a perfect correspondence that I think it must
have been what Eddison intended. He certainly knew a lot about
alchemy and things medieval.
>To my ear, his target date is slightly later, though the Elizabethan
>and Jacobean playwrights are certainly influences.
I think he's also going for a more Northern England dialect
... though now that I say that I can't think of any examples.
>The Worm is marvelous but in my (heterodox) opinion, the Zimiamvia
>trilogy (Mistress of Mistresses, A Fish Dinner in Memison, The Mezentian Gate)
>is better still.
I've been trying to read _A Fish Dinner in Memison_ for
a while, with little success. The romance plot is totally
uninteresting to me, and I can't figure out if it's supposed
to parallel the other plot or not, and how.
Edward Slocomb
>
>> Whenever I read fantasy, I'm bothered by the clear-cut good/evil
>>setup. This includes Lewis, Tolkien, Alexander, Cooper, etc. ...
>
>> Is all fantasy written this way? Would anybody _like_ to see morally
>>ambiguous fantasy - not indifferent, like, perhaps, _Dune_, but one where
>>the characters attempt to do the right thing but may be deluded, or where
>>both sides on the conflict have some moral imperative driving them, etc.?
>
>>I for one would be fascinated to have seen a serious re-writing of _The
>>Lords of the Ring_ to give us a real Orcish culture, or to see what would
>>happen if an orc attempted to befriend an elf.
>> Would this kind of intelligent thinking ruin fantasy?
>
>
>>Phil Goetz
>
>Well Phil, it sounds like what you want is real life, and not fantasy.
>Life is full of moral ambiguity and confusion, and so is the literature
>that tries to closely mirror life. It's only in the realm of fantasy that
>we can ever come across pure good and evil.
>
The truth of the last statement will depend on whether or not the
reader chooses to include religious scriptures in the genre of fantasy
fiction. This is a picky point to raise, but the question of religion is
nonetheless key to a discussion of morals in fantasy, especially that
written in the golden age (if I may call it that) by the circle of authors
that included Tolkein, Lewis, Williams, and others.
There is a long tradition in English Literature of fantasy as a
Biblical allegory. Noteable examples are Spenser's _Faerie_Queene_ and
Milton's _Paradise_Lost_, and there are many who argue (convincingly, IMHO)
that _Beowulf_ carried far more of a christian message than its ostensible
heroic form might suggest. It was in this tradition that C.S. Lewis wrote.
I had read the Narnia books too many times to count when I was a wee 'un,
So it was no small shock to my agnostic self when in high school someone
pointed out the fact that those books are in fact a complex biblical al-
legory (Details left to the reader). In the same vein, _Perelandera_ is
an echo of _Paradise_Lost_ (Details left to the more scholarly reader :-)).
Charles Williams worked in the same tradition, though his work (I recommend
_The_Place_of_the_Lion_) is perhaps more obvious than his colleague's.
Perhaps this will help in realising why Lewis might be bothersome in his
treatment of moral ideas ;-).
But what about other fantasy? Certainly I have yet to hear anyone
say that Tolkein's work was biblical, but everyone seems to give him some
allegorical interpretation or another. Rightly so. Tolkein, along with his
cult fame, is known as perhaps the foremost modern scholar on Beowulf for the
work he did as the Professor of Old English at Oxford. In fact it was one of
his students who had gone into publishing who agreed, with much reluctance,
to take _The_Fellowship_of_the_Ring_ into print (J.R.R. had presented the
whole shmeal in one piece, so the skeptical student agreed only as a favor
to publish only the first third of the work, since surely such a thing would
never make a profit...). The ring series is (IMHO) a discussion of the Great
War and its effect on the individual, but I'll leave this open to discussion--
some folks like a political explanation, and I've even met a man who found
the underlying theme to be racial (in fact, racist. He based his argument on
the black/white imagery, the facial descriptions of the orcs, their origins,
and their weaponry, especially a spear which he said was a recogniseable Zulu
weapon).
We turn to fantasy, I think, when we want to escape from painful
circumstances, however slight they may be. Good writing will recognise this,
and recognise as well a need to give something to the reader that can help or
sooth even after the book is closed. I would suggest that a greater evident
public moral need would elicit a greater moral effort on the part of writers.
This, coupled with an acceptance of fantasy as a vehicle highly suited to
abstract, superhuman, or inexplicable ideas or "morals," would help to explain
the emergence of writers like George MacDonald (_Phantastes_) in the face of
the industrial revolution, and the veritable explosion of "golden age" fantasy
writers in a world rocked by the Great Wars.
Much of the above was first introduced to me by Professor Weiner of
the University of Wisconsin. Thanks, prof.
--The ed.
(Edward Slocomb, slo...@cs.wisc.edu)
nesh...@gmail.com
was very unsteady, tippy.
Sailed round, quitting Port-Phillippi -
. . .
Jutting into harbor, Galway's,
. . .
Calmly beneficial always."
That's all I remember of the Z - A poem.
I recall this from sixth grade, 1969-70. It was a collection of small books that fit into a box. Maybe a series.
Don't recall anything else. But I could recite the A - Z poem by heart, and have, in my head, for decades. Glad somebody else remembers it.