Smiley's people
Mary Elizabeth
>
> Kjetil Svarstad wrote:
> >
> <kidlit snipped>
> >
> > Back to Sigrid Undset: Liv Ullman directed a movie of the first part
> > of Kristin Lavransdatter. It was close to a turkey. Most scenes were
> > dragged out to infinity with the characters looking tragically at each
> > other for hours and hours. But since Liv Ullman is a living icon in
> > Norway, no film critics except one dared actually say what they
> > meant. I can't honestly recommend seeing it... but for persons who got
> > really high on _Ten scenes from a marriage_, and could do with
> > sorrowful eyes instead of Bergman's soul, OK, if you must, go ahead.
> >
> > recycle brains!
> > Kjetil
>
> Hm, this is interesting. None of the viewers' comments in IMDB were
> positive, either, but my impression from them is that people saw
> "14th-c. Norway" (Tangent: I had thought it was 12th-c. but my copy is
> packed away) and thought. "Oh, boy, a swashbuckler!" and were
> disappointed that it was just your standard human tragedy set in another
> time (or as one commenter put it, oh no, a chick flick). Well, I've
> ordered it from amazon.com so I'll see.
>
> This reminds me of Jane Smiley's The Greenlanders, which I picked up as
> part of a stack from the library after howling over "Moo" a couple of
> years ago, and finding "Moo" was the exception in the humor dept. I
> loved "A Thousand Acres" but after a surfeit of Smiley took The
> Greenlanders back to the library unopened. I keep meaning to try it
> again; has anyone here read it?
>
> ---------------------------------------
> Mary "There is no St. Beth" Elizabeth |
> Who grew up at Moo U.s |
> ---------------------------------------
Anyone recommend "The Greenlanders"? Or not?
---------------------------------------
Mary "There is no St. Beth" Elizabeth |
---------------------------------------
Heather Henderson
> Anyone recommend "The Greenlanders"? Or not?
I avoid anything and everything written by Smiley. I suffered through
the horrid "Thousand Acres", plus the silly essay she wrote for Harpers
in which she driveled on about Huck Finn. That was plenty for me.
--
Heather Henderson
hea...@scc.net
http://scc.net/~heather
Heather Henderson
> And what kept me
> going through "A Thousand Acres" was the dawning realization that it
> really was King Lear in the midwest, and I thought it was pretty
> brilliant to have it parallel the play so perfectly without having any
> of it seem forced; it hangs together as a story.
I thought it was about as forced as it could get. It was a contrived
academic exercise with cardboard characters. What kept me going through
the entire thing, which seemed like it was never going to end, was my
curiosity to see whether she was going to add anything interesting and
original to the play's story. It turned out that what she did add wasn't
interesting and original enough to redeem the mindnumbingly tedious
experience of reading the book.
Mary Elizabeth
>
> In article <3911F6D7...@orph.org>, bethN...@orph.org says...
>
> > Anyone recommend "The Greenlanders"? Or not?
>
> I avoid anything and everything written by Smiley. I suffered through
> the horrid "Thousand Acres", plus the silly essay she wrote for Harpers
> in which she driveled on about Huck Finn. That was plenty for me.
>
Ah. Well, you see, I grew up on Moo Us (Dad being an agricultural
economist and ex-farm-boy) so found the whole "Moo" scheme pretty
entertaining, and it's certainly the lightest of hers that I've
encountered so far. In fact I thought it was extremely funny. Then I
went on to the murder mystery she wrote, the one that takes place in New
York City, and liked it as well as i do any other well-written murder
mystery (well, better than Patricia Cornwell's >:) And what kept me
going through "A Thousand Acres" was the dawning realization that it
really was King Lear in the midwest, and I thought it was pretty
brilliant to have it parallel the play so perfectly without having any
of it seem forced; it hangs together as a story. So when the grimness
got to me I kept going for the academic exercise. I found it
interesting and rewarding. (Besides, the families splitting over farm
property and inheritances was as unhappily familiar to me as the Moo
setting was happily.) Then I hit on a rock; the next several short
novels of hers I read were all about dysfunctional families who raised
horses, and I got fed up. Returned "The Greenlanders" to the library
without cracking it. If she writes another one involving horses I'll
probably skip that, too. But "The Greenlanders" looked completely
different so I'll probably give it a try some day. Just wondered
whether anyone else here had read it.
M.K.G. Watkins-Ness
<<I thought it was about as forced as it could get. It was a contrived
academic exercise with cardboard characters. What kept me going through
the entire thing, which seemed like it was never going to end, was my
curiosity to see whether she was going to add anything interesting and
original to the play's story. It turned out that what she did add
wasn't
interesting and original enough to redeem the mindnumbingly tedious
experience of reading the book.>>
I couldn't agree more. Smiley's success is inexplicable to me. My wife
tried
to read A Thousand Acres and didn't get beyond page 25, after which she
passed
it to me as a test of endurance (and a humane alternative to immediate
salvationarming). I finished it (a matter of pride) but not without a
lot of trouble keeping my eyes open.
By the way, I am emphatically not among those who think the Midwest is
boring.
Well, it actually *is* terribly boring, but it's not a bad backdrop for
fiction.
Regards,
mt
Mary Elizabeth
Ah well, that's what makes horse-racing, missionaries, and newsgroups,
as Mark Twain almost said.
-------------------------------------------
Mary "There is no St. Beth" Elizabeth |
Who is not going to rent the movie, though |
-------------------------------------------
Heather Henderson
> By the way, I am emphatically not among those who think the Midwest is
> boring.
> Well, it actually *is* terribly boring, but it's not a bad backdrop for
> fiction.
I don't think it's boring. It's intriguing and mysterious. For example,
there's a statue of Nathan Hale in one of the Victorian-era neighborhoods
in St Paul. What's that all about? And at the St Paul Farmers' Market,
about half of the farmers are Southeast Asian. What are the stories
behind that?
One of the things that really pissed me off about Smiley's book was that
it wasn't an honest attempt to tell the story of an Iowa farm family. I
guess she thought that would be too boring.
ObBook: "Farm", Richard Rhodes - an honest attempt to tell the story of a
real-life Midwestern farm family. Not boring.
Francis Muir
Heather Henderson:
> I don't think it's boring. It's intriguing and mysterious. For example,
> there's a statue of Nathan Hale in one of the Victorian-era neighborhoods
> in St Paul. What's that all about? And at the St Paul Farmers' Market,
> about half of the farmers are Southeast Asian. What are the stories
> behind that?
Specifically they're Mung. A good piece about them in yesterday's Jim
Lehrer News. With an entirely oral tradition they have had a tough time
assimilating. The CIA enticed them into the War.
Heather Henderson
>
>
> Heather Henderson:
>
> > I don't think it's boring. It's intriguing and mysterious. For example,
> > there's a statue of Nathan Hale in one of the Victorian-era neighborhoods
> > in St Paul. What's that all about? And at the St Paul Farmers' Market,
> > about half of the farmers are Southeast Asian. What are the stories
> > behind that?
>
> Specifically they're Mung.
I think most of them are.
> A good piece about them in yesterday's Jim
> Lehrer News. With an entirely oral tradition they have had a tough time
> assimilating. The CIA enticed them into the War.
I heard one story that an important CIA operative, a Minnesotan, was so
guilt-ridden about what they had done to the Hmong that he helped them
emigrate to MN and get set up as farmers - he bought the land for them,
etc. Possibly an urban (rural?) legend.
Phyllis Chamberlain
Heather Henderson wrote in message ...
>> Lehrer News. With an entirely oral tradition they have had a tough time
>> assimilating. The CIA enticed them into the War.
>
>I heard one story that an important CIA operative, a Minnesotan, was so
>guilt-ridden about what they had done to the Hmong that he helped them
>emigrate to MN and get set up as farmers - he bought the land for them,
>etc. Possibly an urban (rural?) legend.
There are a lot of the former Laotian Hmong here in the Pomona Valley, in
Southern California. Twenty-some years ago I did volunteer English teaching
among them. Now some have graduated from UCLA, some have joined gangs, and
some remain on welfare. Those who choose to assimilate have done very well
here.
There was an active guy who claimed to be part of a La Verne Church of the
Brethren group that had worked with the Hmong in Laos after the war. I
strongly felt that along with the CIA bringing these people over here,
people like this man who phoned me at home and questioned me closely about
what I was doing, were also CIA. Guilt?? Who knows.
Item: Most of the Hmong in California are in the Central Valley outside
Fresno. They have not assimilated very well, as I understand it.
Phyllis Chamberlain
Mary Elizabeth
>
> In article <391253...@duoportola.com>, m...@duoportola.com says...
>
> > By the way, I am emphatically not among those who think the Midwest is
> > boring.
> > Well, it actually *is* terribly boring, but it's not a bad backdrop for
> > fiction.
>
As a friend of mine from Indiana once said, the Midwest is a great place
to raise your kids and then leave. It can be boring. Breathtaking as
those endless vistas of corn and soybeans are, amber waves of grain get
old fast, unlike (IMHO) the variety and microclimates of the area I live
in now.
> I don't think it's boring. It's intriguing and mysterious. For example,
> there's a statue of Nathan Hale in one of the Victorian-era neighborhoods
> in St Paul.
I've never figured out why there's a statue of William Wallace in the
park containing Baltimore's zoo, either.
> What's that all about? And at the St Paul Farmers' Market,
> about half of the farmers are Southeast Asian. What are the stories
> behind that?
>
Certain Midwestern churches were noted for their activity in taking in
and helping re-settle refugees from the war in Vietnam/Laos/Cambodia. I
believe I've read that the largest Hmong community outside Cambodia is
in the Midwest.
> One of the things that really pissed me off about Smiley's book was that
> it wasn't an honest attempt to tell the story of an Iowa farm family. I
> guess she thought that would be too boring.
>
> ObBook: "Farm", Richard Rhodes - an honest attempt to tell the story of a
> real-life Midwestern farm family. Not boring.
>
> --
> Heather Henderson
> hea...@scc.net
> http://scc.net/~heather
Hm. I'm not going to give details of past and present family scandals
in a newsgroup, but none of Smiley's characters or their actions were at
all unbelievable to me. Farm folk, like any other people, can be both
boring and wicked. Or hardworking and tyrannical. Or any number of
complex combinations.
---------------------------------------
Mary "There is no St. Beth" Elizabeth |
Who grew up on tales of her midwestern |
forebears and contemporaries |
---------------------------------------
Mary Elizabeth
Damn, always hitting that "Send" button too soon. "It is my belief,
Watson, founded upon experience, that the lowest and vilest alleys of
London do not present a more dreadful record of sin than does the
smiling and beautiful countryside."
---------------------------------------
Mary "There is no St. Beth" Elizabeth |
Who had to go to Bartlett's to get the |
exact wording on that one |
---------------------------------------
David J. Fiander
>
> Damn, always hitting that "Send" button too soon. "It is my belief,
> Watson, founded upon experience, that the lowest and vilest alleys of
> London do not present a more dreadful record of sin than does the
> smiling and beautiful countryside."
Cf. (reputedly) Wilde: "The only normal people are those you
don't know well."
- D
--
David J. Fiander | What's past is prologue
Incipient Librarian | - The Tempest, Wm. Shakespeare
Heather Henderson
> Heather Henderson wrote:
> >
> > In article <391253...@duoportola.com>, m...@duoportola.com says...
> >
> > > By the way, I am emphatically not among those who think the Midwest is
> > > boring.
> > > Well, it actually *is* terribly boring, but it's not a bad backdrop for
> > > fiction.
> >
>
> As a friend of mine from Indiana once said, the Midwest is a great place
> to raise your kids and then leave. It can be boring.
Any US region can be boring.
> Breathtaking as
> those endless vistas of corn and soybeans are, amber waves of grain get
> old fast, unlike (IMHO) the variety and microclimates of the area I live
> in now.
The climate here in the Twin Cities area is much more interesting than
the climate in New York City, where I grew up. I'm continually impressed
by the vehemence of the seasons.
> I'm not going to give details of past and present family scandals
> in a newsgroup, but none of Smiley's characters or their actions were at
> all unbelievable to me. Farm folk, like any other people, can be both
> boring and wicked. Or hardworking and tyrannical. Or any number of
> complex combinations.
Right. I wonder, then, why Smiley insisted on retelling King Lear.
Mary Elizabeth
To show that you don't need to be a king to ruin your kids' lives? I
dunno. I'm really not trying to convince you that you should have liked
it; I'm just explaining why I found it plausible where you didn't,
that's all. Horseracing and missionaries, y'know.
---------------------------------------
Mary "There is no St. Beth" Elizabeth |
---------------------------------------
Heather Henderson
> Heather Henderson wrote:
> >
> > In article <39130FFC...@orph.org>, bethN...@orph.org says...
> > > I'm not going to give details of past and present family scandals
> > > in a newsgroup, but none of Smiley's characters or their actions were at
> > > all unbelievable to me. Farm folk, like any other people, can be both
> > > boring and wicked. Or hardworking and tyrannical. Or any number of
> > > complex combinations.
> >
> > Right. I wonder, then, why Smiley insisted on retelling King Lear.
> >
> dunno. I'm really not trying to convince you that you should have liked
> it; I'm just explaining why I found it plausible where you didn't,
> that's all. Horseracing and missionaries, y'know.
Nor am I trying to convince you that you shouldn't have liked it. I'm
just explaining that my own dislike of it isn't based on some weird
notion that farmers can't be complex characters.
ObBook: "Farmer", Jim Harrison
Heather Henderson
> hea...@scc.net (Heather Henderson) writes:
>
> > Right. I wonder, then, why Smiley insisted on retelling King Lear.
>
No. Is it supposed to?
Heather Henderson
> hea...@scc.net (Heather Henderson) writes:
>
> > In article <lysnvud...@hecate.bfr.co.il>, a_a_...@mail.com says...
> > > hea...@scc.net (Heather Henderson) writes:
> > >
> > > > Right. I wonder, then, why Smiley insisted on retelling King Lear.
> > >
> > > Not re-telling -- revising. Does that answer your question?
> >
> > No. Is it supposed to?
>
>
> > Farm folk, like any other people, can be both boring and wicked. Or
> > hardworking and tyrannical. Or any number of complex combinations.
>
> read her renunciation of _A Thousand Acres_,
Where was that? I was unaware that she renounced the book.
> and I think it's
> consistent with what I'm saying.)
Have you read the book itself?
> It's not like she wanted to write a
> naturalistic novel about Midwestern farmers, and then decided that
> "re-telling" _King Lear_ would be the best approach.
It's unclear to me whether she started writing the book about farmers and
then decided nobody would pay attention unless she made it "serious" by
basing it on Shakespeare, or she started out wanting to do her own
version of Lear and decided to set it on an Iowa farm as a gesture toward
"modern relevance". Either way, it's a lame contrivance.
> Or if you didn't like that answer,
I'm not crazy about it. I asked "why", and you respond that "she had an
ax to grind." About what? King Lear or child abuse?
> try this one:
>
> Whalers, "like any other people, can be both boring and wicked.
> Or hardworking and tyrannical. Or any number of complex
> combinations."
>
> Right. I wonder, then, why Melville insisted on putting all that
> stuff about obsession, evil, and rebellion into a novel about
> whaling?
Nope, you miss the point. But never mind.
Mary Elizabeth
>
> hea...@scc.net (Heather Henderson) writes:
>
> > Where was that? I was unaware that she renounced the book.
>
> r.a.b., Fiona Webster I think, posted the URL at the time.
>
> > Have you read the book itself?
>
>
> [...]
>
> > Nope, you miss the point. But never mind.
>
> that there's a near consensus here. Mary Elizabeth, you and smw, me,
> even Jane Smiley herself, all agree that the book sucks.
Show me where I said that?? I said I found it fascinating!
But then you also misinterpreted what Smiley did to Lear (I don't call
the book revision, I call it re-telling, as did Heather).
---------------------------------------
Mary "There is no St. Beth" Elizabeth |
Who is going through Post archives |
---------------------------------------
jcoal...@my-deja.com
Mary Elizabeth <bethN...@orph.org> wrote:
> Philistine wrote:
> >
> > hea...@scc.net (Heather Henderson) writes:
> >
> > > Where was that? I was unaware that she renounced the book.
> >
> > I think it was in the Washington Post book section. Someone at
> > r.a.b., Fiona Webster I think, posted the URL at the time.
> >
> > > Have you read the book itself?
> >
> > Yes.
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > > Nope, you miss the point. But never mind.
> >
> > OK. If you'll forgive me for ending with a positive comment, note
> > that there's a near consensus here. Mary Elizabeth, you and smw,
> > me,
> > even Jane Smiley herself, all agree that the book sucks.
>
> Show me where I said that?? I said I found it fascinating!
> But then you also misinterpreted what Smiley did to Lear (I don't call
> the book revision, I call it re-telling, as did Heather).
>
I still haven't read it and despite its author's renunciation, it's
still on my list. But I can say what sucks is Iowa. Grant Wood
had it just about right.
jimC
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
tejas
His artists' colony, Stone City, is quite nice. I think there's a
microbrewery there now. On the Anamosa River (or is it the Raccoon
River?). Haven't been there since '88.
--
TBSa...@richmond.infi.net (also te...@infi.net)
http://mh106.infi.net/~tejas/
'Do the boogie woogie in the South American way'
Hank Snow (1914-1999)
THE RHUMBA BOOGIE
M-T
In general, yes, it sucks. But See-the-rabbits is a pretty nice town.
It's been revamped. There's some fine writers there.
It's been suggested that driving across Iowa can both cure depression
and drive one to suicide. I think it depends on whether you smell the
pigs or not.
Regs,
mt
tejas
Pig manure stench is more readily dissipated on flat land. A pig
farm in a valley protected from the dispersing winds is something
to experience.
ObAcademicDeptAtTAMU: Swine Science
Richard Harter
wrote:
>M-T wrote:
>>
>> <<But I can say what sucks is Iowa>>
>>
>> In general, yes, it sucks. But See-the-rabbits is a pretty nice town.
>> It's been revamped. There's some fine writers there.
>>
>> It's been suggested that driving across Iowa can both cure depression
>> and drive one to suicide. I think it depends on whether you smell the
>> pigs or not.
>
>Pig manure stench is more readily dissipated on flat land. A pig
>farm in a valley protected from the dispersing winds is something
>to experience.
The stench of a modern piggery is really quite remarkable - you can
smell it for miles even on the open prairie.
A couple of years ago Tyson - Clinton's chicken plucking friend -
tried to hornswoggle the locals in Hyde County (my very own native
county) into setting up piggeries. The proposition with rosy
disinformation about how much money the locals would make. In the
fine print it turned out that the locals would take all of the risk.
After a rather acrimonious campaign piggereies were zoned out.
Pork and Chicken factories are environmental disasters.
Richard Harter, c...@tiac.net
http://www.tiac.net/users/cri
Corn dogs - hot dogs with a penile impant and a corn meal condom
that taste like meat by-products wrapped in yellow toilet paper.
Heather Henderson
> In article <3917348B...@orph.org>,
> Mary Elizabeth <bethN...@orph.org> wrote:
> > Philistine wrote:
> > >
> > > hea...@scc.net (Heather Henderson) writes:
> > >
> > > > Where was that? I was unaware that she renounced the book.
> > >
> > > I think it was in the Washington Post book section. Someone at
> > > r.a.b., Fiona Webster I think, posted the URL at the time.
> > >
> > > > Have you read the book itself?
> > >
> > > Yes.
> > >
> > > [...]
> > >
> > > > Nope, you miss the point. But never mind.
> > >
> > > OK. If you'll forgive me for ending with a positive comment, note
> > > that there's a near consensus here. Mary Elizabeth, you and smw,
> > > me,
> > > even Jane Smiley herself, all agree that the book sucks.
> >
> > Show me where I said that?? I said I found it fascinating!
> > But then you also misinterpreted what Smiley did to Lear (I don't call
> > the book revision, I call it re-telling, as did Heather).
> >
>
> I still haven't read it and despite its author's renunciation, it's
> still on my list.
Skip it. Unless you're like the kid in "Catch-22" who fears certain
death and engages in terribly boring activities to make his remaining
life seem longer.
Heather Henderson
> Mary Elizabeth <bethN...@orph.org> writes:
>
> > Show me where I said that?? I said I found it fascinating!
>
>
> > But then you also misinterpreted what Smiley did to Lear (I don't
> > call the book revision, I call it re-telling, as did Heather).
>
> misinterpreted it as well. That's not impossible, of course.
I tend not to trust what writers (or any artists) say about their own
work, any more than I'd trust a ballplayer's explanation of his good
game. However, what they say is often interesting.
Marcy Thompson
>In article <8f7ig6$cjl$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, jcoal...@my-deja.com says...
>> In article <3917348B...@orph.org>,
>> Mary Elizabeth <bethN...@orph.org> wrote:
>> > Philistine wrote:
>> > >
>> > > hea...@scc.net (Heather Henderson) writes:
>> > > even Jane Smiley herself, all agree that the book sucks.
Well, I ponied up the $1.50 and read what Smiley wrote.
I don't think she said the book sucks. I think she said
that it reflects an interpretation of King Lear that she
has moved beyond, that she could not and would not now write
such a book, and that she is disavowing it in the sense of
it not being *her* book, given who she is today and what she
thinks/feels about King Lear.
ObBook: The Serpent's Tooth
Marcy
--
Marcy Thompson
ma...@squirrel.com
jcoal...@my-deja.com
tbsa...@richmond.infi.net wrote:
> jcoal...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
> > In article <3917348B...@orph.org>,
> > Mary Elizabeth <bethN...@orph.org> wrote:
> > > Philistine wrote:
> > > >
> > > > hea...@scc.net (Heather Henderson) writes:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I think it was in the Washington Post book section. Someone at
> > > > r.a.b., Fiona Webster I think, posted the URL at the time.
> > > >
> > > > > Have you read the book itself?
> > > >
> > > > Yes.
> > > >
> > > > [...]
> > > >
> > > > > Nope, you miss the point. But never mind.
> > > >
> > > > OK. If you'll forgive me for ending with a positive comment,
note
> > > > that there's a near consensus here. Mary Elizabeth, you and
smw,
> > > > me,
> > >
call
> > > the book revision, I call it re-telling, as did Heather).
> > >
> >
> > had it just about right.
>
> His artists' colony, Stone City, is quite nice. I think there's a
> microbrewery there now. On the Anamosa River (or is it the Raccoon
> River?). Haven't been there since '88.
On reflection, Iowa is fine if one counts one's blessings.
I have been on the road too long. Straightforward, straight-talking,
49%-48% Republican-Democrat, or the other way around, and a few
independents. It's as balanced a place as Lake Wobegon, and all the
children are above average.
Forget the subtropical flora of home and and the bougainvillea
thornweed. I just miss being in a normal time zone where the first
hour of "All Things Considered" comes on at 2 pm and where I don't have
to wait all day to get the closing NASDAQ/Dow. In my native time zone,
a solicitous waiter doesn't suggest a Bloody Mary when I ask, "What've
you got that's reddish from Sonoma and goes with this?" me gesturing
toward a couple of slices of pizza under a heat lamp.
Charlotte L. Blackmer
><<But I can say what sucks is Iowa>>
>
>In general, yes, it sucks. But See-the-rabbits is a pretty nice town.
>It's been revamped. There's some fine writers there.
>
>It's been suggested that driving across Iowa can both cure depression
>and drive one to suicide. I think it depends on whether you smell the
>pigs or not.
As a dormie at UC Davis, I lived in the dorms that were between the cow
barns and the pig barn.
Happily they had built the dorms so that the prevailing winds came from
the bovine direction (and never came in from pigland; winds came in from
the other three directions but not that one).
I had to cycle by the pig barn every day to get to class (it's next to a
cycletron and Engineer-land). It only got pretty ripe when it was wet,
for some reason (wind not blowing when it rains?); I put my scarf over my
nose and rode like hell.
I didn't live there long enough during the summer to form an opinion of
what it was like in the heat.
ObBook, written by one of my UCD profs: California Thriller (includes a
scene on a farm in the Valley during a typical baking Central Valley
day).
ObAnotherThread: I liked _Moo_, was not terribly excited by The
Greenlanders but finished it, was totally bored by A Thousand Acres,
*didn't* finish it, and put it in the bag of books I just gave to the
Friends of the Berkeley Public Library to sell.
CLB
------------------------------------------------------
Charlotte L. Blackmer <http://www.rahul.net/clb>
Berkeley Farm and Pleasure Palace (under construction)
Junk (esp. commercial) email review rates: $250 US ea