Reading can seriously damage your prejudices
salte...@darwin.ntu.edu.au
*Warning: reading can seriously damage your prejudices*
This seemed a good topic for discussion. What books have seriously
damaged your prejudices?
For me, it was "Things Fall Apart" by Chinua Achebe. I read it when
I was 14 and believed that history was British Kings. "Things Fall Apart",
about the impact of British colonialism on a West African village,
killed that particular prejudice stone dead.
Linden
--
Linden Salter-Duke,
Northern Territory University,
Darwin, NT, Australia
Dan'l DanehyOakes
>I saw a poster the other day which said:
>
>*Warning: reading can seriously damage your prejudices*
>
>This seemed a good topic for discussion. What books have seriously
>damaged your prejudices?
Well, for one thing, there was HUCK FINN. On which, nuff said.
A MIDSUMMER NIGHT'S DREAM destroyed my assumption (at 10) that anything
labelled "classic" must de facto be boring.
GODEL, ESCHER, BACH destroyed my prejudice in favor of rationalism.
Which would probably horrify the author.
And, not exactly the damaging of a prejudice but the severe changing
of a social attitude -- James Tiptree Jr.'s "The Women Men Don't See,"
read in high school, completely changed my attitude toward women and
feminism.
[An e]xit is the portion of a means of egress which
is separated from all other spaces of the building
or structure by construction or equipment as required
in this subpart to provide a protected way to
travel to the exit discharge.
-- Consulting Engineers Council,
Occupational Health and Safety Standards
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes
Net.Roach
My opinions do NOT represent Pacific Bell,
Professional Development, or anyone else.
But I'm willing to share.
Joel J. Hanes
>
>*Warning: reading can seriously damage your prejudices*
>
>This seemed a good topic for discussion. What books have seriously
>damaged your prejudices?
"When It Changed", a short story by Joanna Russ in _Dangerous_Visions_
_The_Women's_Room_, Marilyn French
These two helped me to begin to listen to feminists.
_A_Sand_County_Almanac_ and _Round_River_, Aldo Leopold
Antidotes to anthropocentrism and addiction to "progress"
_Bury_My_Hear_At_Wounded_Knee_
Antidote to Jr. High American History propaganda
_Little_Big_Man_, Berger
_Blue_Highways_, Least Heat Moon
Antidote to _Bury_My_Heart_At_Wounded_Knee
_The_Mismeasure_of_Man_ and _Wonderful_Life_, Stephen Jay Gould
Disabused me of the idea that evolutionary change is
progressive, and the idea that science is value-neutral.
_Earth_and_Life_Through_Time_, Steven M. Stanley
Some environmentalists like to imagine a "pristine",
stable ecology, existing before humanity's intrusion ---
the "eternal balance of nature" prejudice. A look at
geologic history showed me that swift catastrophes are
common and natural, and that our view of untrammeled
nature is but one frame of a long, action-filled movie.
---
Joel Hanes
Chuck Smythe
>In article <1991Nov4.1...@darwin.ntu.edu.au> salte...@darwin.ntu.edu.au writes:
>>This seemed a good topic for discussion. What books have seriously
>>damaged your prejudices?
*"When It Changed", a short story by Joanna Russ in _Dangerous_Visions_
*_The_Women's_Room_, Marilyn French
*_A_Sand_County_Almanac_ and _Round_River_, Aldo Leopold
*_Bury_My_Hear_At_Wounded_Knee_
*_Little_Big_Man_, Berger
*_Blue_Highways_, Least Heat Moon
*_The_Mismeasure_of_Man_ and _Wonderful_Life_, Stephen Jay Gould
*_Earth_and_Life_Through_Time_, Steven M. Stanley
(Comments on the books omitted.)
A wonderful list, Mr. Hanes. I admire your taste.
Obligatory contribution to the list:
_Science and Sanity_, Korzybski
(I'll bet I misspelled the author). I read it at age 14, and learned that
Pronouncements from the Authorities can be Right, or Wrong (Bertrand Russell
had already clued me in on that), or (the most likely), simply Meaningless.
Immunized me against politicians, preachers, and gurus of all stripes until
I was old enough to know better. Assuming I am even yet.
Chuck Smythe
Michael Sean Rooney
interesting bundle of narratives which compose my `self' aren't
marked by very many abrupt changes of attitude or prejudice, at
least through particular works or books. But I suppose that there
have been a few episteme shifts brought on through readings...
THE PLAGUE, Albert Camus.
(I read this when I was pretty young, and it did inspire
a certain defiant resistance to the cruel illusions of
life, at least through high school.)
A PORTRAIT OF THE ARTIST AS A YOUNG MAN, James Joyce.
(This awakened a real appreciation for the beauty of
language, and introduced me to Joyce.)
BEYOND GOOD AND EVIL, Friedrich Nietzsche.
(This one completely changed my hitherto Oxonian dispositions
in philosophy, and thus changed my academic concerns.)
"The Ends of Man" in MARGINS OF PHILOSOPHY, Jacques Derrida.
(Convinced me of Derrida's importance in philosophy and
substantially altered my views on teleology and political
theory.)
VINELAND, Thomas Pynchon.
(Read this one on vacation a year ago, and after initially
being mildly dissatisfied with it compared to Pynchon's
other works, I realized some of the profound optimism and
humanity it relates so vigorously.)
Unlike some of the other postings on this subject, I can't recall any
particular works which changed my prejudices about sexism, racism, etc.
(Of course, being raised by three women and two gay uncles might have
something to do with that, not to mention growing up non-white in a
town not too far away from the headquarters of Tom Metzger's White
Aryan Resistance. ;-7
Cordially,
M.S. Rooney
"Flash! Aa-aa!"
John McCarthy
now regards as prejudices? Reading Edgar Snow's _Red Star over China_
reinforced my prejudice in favor of the Chinese communists in a way
that took a long time to dissipate. A Chinese in Taiwan told me that
he had been much influenced for a long time by a Chinese translation
of Snow's book. To generalize, I suppose that books romanticizing bad
guys or general thuggishness, e.g. Dumas, have had a huge influence.
I read somewhere that Sir Walter Scott's novels had bad effects in
the American South, in particular triggering a revival of dueling.
How about the bad effects of pessimistic literature, alias
anti-Earthman propaganda?
What about the effects of romantic novels on women?
In all cases, confessions preferred to accounts of the effects on
others.
--
"There's not a woman in his book, the plot hinges on unkindness to
animals, and the black characters mostly drown by chapter 29."
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
Ian Heavens
>Will anyone admit to reading creating or reinforcing beliefs that he
>now regards as prejudices? Reading Edgar Snow's _Red Star over China_
>reinforced my prejudice in favor of the Chinese communists in a way
>that took a long time to dissipate. A Chinese in Taiwan told me that
>he had been much influenced for a long time by a Chinese translation
>of Snow's book.
An interesting choice of book. I understand that the first account that
most Chinese read about Mao and the Eighth Route Army was through the
Chinese translation of 'Red Star Over China'.
Which prejudices do you think it reinforces? My memory is that it
describes the behaviour of the Communists to the population as being far
better than the Nationalists, which would not be difficult to believe.
An air of utopian optimism is to be expected in a book written at that
time, and I don't think you could lay the blame for the events of the
Cultural Revolution, genocide in Tibet, etc., at the door of Edgar
Snow writing in _that_ book, though you could in the case of his
subsequent writings ('Red China Today', 'the Long Revolution'). I
don't know if these form apologia for Mao's subsequent decisions,
but wouldn't be surprised.
ian
---
Ian Heavens i...@spider.co.uk
Spider Systems Ltd
Spider Park, Stanwell Street
Edinburgh, EH6 5NG, Scotland +44 31 554 9424 (Ext 4166)
--
John McCarthy
In article <JMC.91No...@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> j...@cs.Stanford.EDU writes:
>Will anyone admit to reading creating or reinforcing beliefs that he
>now regards as prejudices? Reading Edgar Snow's _Red Star over China_
>reinforced my prejudice in favor of the Chinese communists in a way
>that took a long time to dissipate. A Chinese in Taiwan told me that
>he had been much influenced for a long time by a Chinese translation
>of Snow's book.
An interesting choice of book. I understand that the first account that
most Chinese read about Mao and the Eighth Route Army was through the
Chinese translation of 'Red Star Over China'.
Which prejudices do you think it reinforces? My memory is that it
describes the behaviour of the Communists to the population as being far
better than the Nationalists, which would not be difficult to believe.
An air of utopian optimism is to be expected in a book written at that
time, and I don't think you could lay the blame for the events of the
Cultural Revolution, genocide in Tibet, etc., at the door of Edgar
Snow writing in _that_ book, though you could in the case of his
subsequent writings ('Red China Today', 'the Long Revolution'). I
don't know if these form apologia for Mao's subsequent decisions,
but wouldn't be surprised.
ian
The prejudice it reinforced was that the Chinese communists were good
guys. I assume that Ian Heavens regards it as the truth rather than
just a prejudice, but I think I was misled by it. My Chinese friend
thought that he was also.
Snow omitted to mention the intolerance and murderousness that
had already developed among his heroes.
eric andrew wolfe
>but I think I was misled by it.
^^^^^^
When I first read this word--misled--I never connected it with its
infinitive--to mislead--because I mispronounced it in my head as I
read: my'-zulled. Apparently it seemed clear enough from the context
what the word meant (approximately, at least), since I didn't bother
to look it up. Instead, it came to function for me an adjective
meaning "befuddled" or "confused" (which you can see loses some of the
meaning of the actual word, since the notion of "leading" disappears).
I knew, of course, that "to mislead" did have a past tense, since I
had heard it spoken, and no doubt even used it myself in conversation.
Never did I wonder, though, why this past tense never appeared in my
reading. Nor did I note that no verb form of my word ("to misle," I
supposed) ever appeared (Hey! Don't misle me!). For fifteen or
twenty years I read this word incorrectly, until one day--in a
flash--I realized my longstanding mistake. Even today, I have to
fight hard not to read it as "my-zulled."
Has anyone had similar experiences?
Eric Wolfe
Curtis Yarvin
>In article <JMC.91No...@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> j...@cs.Stanford.EDU writes:
>
>>but I think I was misled by it.
> ^^^^^^
>
>When I first read this word--misled--I never connected it with its
>infinitive--to mislead--because I mispronounced it in my head as I
>read: my'-zulled.
>Has anyone had similar experiences?
Yeah, I said to myself,
"Yo, dude! Like, graphically warlike metaphorage! Rocket me, shell
me, blow me away with my own hot Scud misle of love!"
c
Annette Bergmann
>
>>but I think I was misled by it.
> ^^^^^^
>
>When I first read this word--misled--I never connected it with its
>infinitive--to mislead--because I mispronounced it in my head as I
>Has anyone had similar experiences?
This is from Anne Tyler's _The Accidental Tourist_:
"I thought the streets were blocked."
"They weren't so bad," Charles said, accepting a glass of milk.
_Finding_ the place was the hard part." He told Macon, "I looked
it up on the map but evidently I was mizzled."
"Mizzled?" Muriel asked.
"He was misled," Macon explained.
Jan Yarnot
or somesuch, misread as "mizzled" but then have recovered) to my SO, who
instantly told me about "policy" which for years was "police-y" to him.
I've had similar experiences, though at the moment senility keeps me from
remembering which words did me in. Perhaps they still are.
--
---Jan Yarnot, net.grandma.--- How many graduate students does it take to
change a light bulb?
CSUS depends on my every word. Only one, but it takes 9 years.
Muffy Barkocy
What about the effects of romantic novels on women?
What *are* the effects of romantic novels on women? Do you mean
"romantic" or "Romance"? I've read a lot of both, but I can't recall
them giving me any ideas/prejudices. "Romantic" novels can take me on
an emotional roller-coaster, depending on the book, of course.
"Romance" novels don't do much for me, but they filled in the time
nicely when I was younger - I could read my mother's when I ran out of
books on the weekend, which would fill two hours at a time.
Muffy
--
Muffy Barkocy mu...@mica.berkeley.edu
~Little round planet/in a big universe/sometimes it looks blessed/
sometimes it looks cursed/Depends on what you look at, obviously/
But even more it depends on the way that you see~ - Bruce Cockburn
Mark Eckenwiler
>In article <JMC.91No...@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> j...@cs.Stanford.EDU writes:
>
>>but I think I was misled by it.
> ^^^^^^
>
>When I first read this word--misled--I never connected it with its
>infinitive--to mislead--because I mispronounced it in my head as I
>read: my'-zulled.
>Has anyone had similar experiences?
infrared
underfed
Followups to a.u.e, since this has next to nothing to do with books.
--
Brokaw knows the frequency. Rather won it from him at racquetball.
- Roy Blount, Jr.
Mark Eckenwiler e...@panix.com ...!cmcl2!panix!eck
Ian Heavens
>
> In article <JMC.91No...@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> j...@cs.Stanford.EDU writes:
> >Will anyone admit to reading creating or reinforcing beliefs that he
> >now regards as prejudices? Reading Edgar Snow's _Red Star over China_
> >reinforced my prejudice in favor of the Chinese communists in a way
> >that took a long time to dissipate. A Chinese in Taiwan told me that
> >he had been much influenced for a long time by a Chinese translation
> >of Snow's book.
>
>guys. I assume that Ian Heavens regards it as the truth rather than
>just a prejudice, but I think I was misled by it. My Chinese friend
>thought that he was also.
>
Well, I am only going by what I have read by Snow, Jack Belden ('China
Shakes The World') and a few others, which give the impression that
the Communists at that point were far less corrupt than the Nationalists
and a large number of the cadres were motivated by idealism. You would
expect this idealism to fade with the realities of acquiring power, which
clearly happened. Of course, if you are correct, then the book does
reinforce prejudices.
>Snow omitted to mention the intolerance and murderousness that
>had already developed among his heroes.
I'd certainly be interested in details about this.
John McCarthy
in him. Oh, now I remember that some people have declared themselves
to be reformed Randians, so I suppose some of them would have to say
that her books created in them what they now regard as prejudices.
When I tried to lead off by saying that _Red Star over China_
reinforced some of my prejudices, I have gotten replies saying
essentially that these beliefs weren't prejudices.
sometimes a Wombat
>in him. Oh, now I remember that some people have declared themselves
>to be reformed Randians, so I suppose some of them would have to say
>that her books created in them what they now regard as prejudices.
Ahem.
When I was in my early teens, I discovered Robert Heinlein. More
specifically, I read _Time Enough For Love_, and the notebooks of
Lazarus Long therein. It was through this, I realized the importance
of having an ethical system. So I developed one, heavily based on
what I could get out of that book and others by Heinlein ---but
not, curiously, _Stranger in a Strange Land_, which I didn't believe.
It took several years to figure out why Heinlein/Lazarus was wrong,
or at least wrong for me. It wasn't overturned suddenly; bits and
pieces were replaced as I grew up, and just about all of it has
been discarded except for an operational definition of love which
I reserve for arguments. I can't think of any single influence on
what changed me, but contributers include L'Engle, George Fox, a
passage in an otherwise forgetable book by Orson Scott Card, and
---tho' I don't believe them ---Joseph Campbell & Robert Graves.
For the other half of the challange, there is Stephen Jay Gould,
whose several books have diabused me of more wrong-thinking than
I care to remember; most recently pointing out to me what I should
not have forgotten, that history is a stochastic process.
(Did anyone else notice that the video-tape image in _Wonderful
Life_ was completely the wrong one to use? The tape is deterministic:
when you reply it, you get the same result. What he wanted was
a computer simulation, such as a Monte Carlo process.)
Larry "flipping a random bit" Hammer
L...@albert.physics.arizona.edu \
The insane don't need disclaimers \ Purple Mage Publications is now hiring
sometimes a Wombat
>
>For the other half of the challange, there is Stephen Jay Gould,
>whose several books have diabused me of more wrong-thinking than
>I care to remember; most recently pointing out to me what I should
>not have forgotten, that history is a stochastic process.
Another thing that Gould, S.J., taught me was why Social Darwinism
cannot be correct ---because culture changes by Lamarkian, not
Darwinian, processes.
Larry "further buletins as the situation warrents" Hammer
| "Absence diminishes small loves and increases
L...@albert.physics.arizona.edu | great ones, as the wind blows out the candle
insanity needs no disclaimer | and blows up the bonfire." --La Rochefoucauld
John McCarthy
I wrote:
>
>For the other half of the challange, there is Stephen Jay Gould,
>whose several books have diabused me of more wrong-thinking than
>I care to remember; most recently pointing out to me what I should
>not have forgotten, that history is a stochastic process.
Another thing that Gould, S.J., taught me was why Social Darwinism
cannot be correct ---because culture changes by Lamarkian, not
Darwinian, processes.
Larry "further buletins as the situation warrents" Hammer
Perhaps Gould, S.J. had an effect on you similar to what it would be
if S.J. stood for something other than Stephen Jay, i.e. replacing
your original prejudices by his. What is this "social Darwinism"
that cannot be correct, and how much does it resemble what the
people who called *themselves* social Darwinists said?
Barbara Hlavin
>>In article <JMC.91No...@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> j...@cs.Stanford.EDU writes:
>>
>>>but I think I was misled by it.
>> ^^^^^^
>>
>>When I first read this word--misled--I never connected it with its
>>infinitive--to mislead--because I mispronounced it in my head as I
>>read: my'-zulled.
>
>>Has anyone had similar experiences?
Some years ago I was reading the "Hers" column in the Sunday NYT, a
column that began with the sentence, "We are all bagladies."
"Oh, I am *not*!" I thought, immediately followed by, "What the
heck is a baGLAHdy?"
--
Barbara Hlavin "Study-study-study, or BONK-BONK,
tw...@milton.u.washington.edu bad kid!"
Jussi-Ville Heiskanen
>When I first read this word--misled--I never connected it with its
>infinitive--to mislead--because I mispronounced it in my head as I
>read: my'-zulled.
>I knew, of course, that "to mislead" did have a past tense, since I
>had heard it spoken, and no doubt even used it myself in conversation.
>Never did I wonder, though, why this past tense never appeared in my
>reading. Nor did I note that no verb form of my word ("to misle," I
>supposed) ever appeared (Hey! Don't misle me!). For fifteen or
>twenty years I read this word incorrectly, until one day--in a
>flash--I realized my longstanding mistake.
>Has anyone had similar experiences?
I don't know if a foreigners experiences count, but I thought for
a long time that the word "awe" as it was written was pronounced:
ay-w, and that there was a distinct word spelled maybe "oare" or
"hoor". As I realized the "connection" in a flash, I was most
suprised to note that english spelling still had surprises for me.
I had become much too confident in my intuitive ability to figure
spellings out. Of course the real problem with "awe" was that
people tended to pronounce it veeerrry streched for emphasis...
--
"The Man In Blue" // ***That's it!***
// (Merlin, in Excalibur (Sword of Power)
=============================================================================
j...@clinet.fi // Jussi-Ville "J-V" Heiskanen A.K.A. Sokrates jr.
Janice Miller
>>>>> andrew wolfe) said:
eric> When I first read this word--misled--I never connected it with its
eric> infinitive--to mislead--because I mispronounced it in my head as I
eric> read: my'-zulled. . . .
eric> Has anyone had similar experiences?
I knew someone who says he used to mispronounce "misled" that way.
My own particular problem, though, was "inevitable." I understood
when people pronounced it that way, and I think I said it that way,
but I never made the connection (until fairly recently) between that
and the written word, which I always pronounced to myself as
"inev-y'-table." That always seemed to sound more like "unavoidable"
to me.
--
--
Janice Miller janice...@dg.com
Network Systems Development Division
Data General Corporation
Westboro MA
mike.siemon
> When I tried to lead off by saying that _Red Star over China_
> reinforced some of my prejudices, I have gotten replies saying
> essentially that these beliefs weren't prejudices.
There are problems in coming to grips with what you seem to want
to discuss -- few of us would recognize our (current) political
views as prejudicial, and unless we've had political "conversion"
experiences (as "neo-conservatives" sometimes have; the case I
know best being Peter Collier formerly of Ramparts and now a right-
wing toady after making it with bios of Fords & Rockefellers) are
not particularly prone to point with loathing at something which
once greatly inflenced us.
I suppose that in the most direct line of your question I would have
to cite JFK's inaugural, which didn't so much confirm as create some
"prejudices" (notably about going anywhere and doing anything in
defense of liberty) which died very hard over the following years.
Or in a somewhat *contrary* manner, I could cite Hoover's _Masters
of Deceit_ which became a wonderful support for my continuing preju-
dice against "intelligence" agents and agencies. I'd say that Hoover
was the ONE source that seriously inclined me TOWARDS communism.
I rather think politics is NOT a good arena for examining such stuff,
however. It might be better to cite Eric Temple Bell and his overly
schematic biographies of Gauss or Galois or others, which led me to
some rather distorted (and self-indulgent, for no good reason) views
of what mathematics and mathematicians were about and were like. It
might be said that Plato ensnared me early on, in philosopical pre-
judice which has been very hard to extricate myself from. And this
is perhaps the most interesting case, in that while of very different
opinion these days than in my Platonizing youth, I think there is
nonetheless a great deal of value in these sources, despite their
dangerous proneness to foster pernicious notions.
--
Michael L. Siemon We must know the truth, and we must
m...@usl.com love the truth we know, and we must
act according to the measure of our love.
standard disclaimer -- Thomas Merton
Jose M Cunha
>In article <8fAN02H...@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com> jj...@OUTS.ccc.amdahl.com (Joel J. Hanes) writes:
>>In article <1991Nov4.1...@darwin.ntu.edu.au> salte...@darwin.ntu.edu.au writes:
>
>>>This seemed a good topic for discussion. What books have seriously
>>>damaged your prejudices?
>
Though I still don't like fags, I don't get any fag-bashing violent reactions.
--
Heavenly Softness I HATE 4 LINE LIMITS
Blissful and Pleasurable
Given or Denied? sh...@wpi.wpi.edu
Copyright 1990, by Jose Manuel F.V. Cunha
Annette Bergmann
>>>In article <1991Nov4.1...@darwin.ntu.edu.au> salte...@darwin.ntu.edu.au writes:
>>
>>>>This seemed a good topic for discussion. What books have seriously
>>>>damaged your prejudices?
>>
> _The Last Herald Mage_ by Mercedes Lackey.
>
>Though I still don't like fags, I don't get any fag-bashing violent reactions.
>
>
>--
> Heavenly Softness I HATE 4 LINE LIMITS
> Blissful and Pleasurable
> Given or Denied? sh...@wpi.wpi.edu
> Copyright 1990, by Jose Manuel F.V. Cunha
No no no no no no no! To do a proper BIFF imitation, you need
more spelling errors, a much longer .sig (well, I guess your .sig
shows you're aware of that), and MORE USE OF CAPITAL LETTERS.
Glad to help,
Annette
Paul Callahan
>No no no no no no no! To do a proper BIFF imitation, you need
>more spelling errors, a much longer .sig (well, I guess your .sig
>shows you're aware of that), and MORE USE OF CAPITAL LETTERS.
BIFF? I thought he was imitating Infidel.
--
Paul Callahan
call...@cs.jhu.edu
Ian P. Gent
>When I first read this word--misled--I never connected it with its
>infinitive--to mislead--because I mispronounced it in my head as I
>read: my'-zulled.
There's an article about misling in Quine's recent book "Quiddities",
a book described as an "Intermittenly Philosophical Dictionary" so it
is not too heavy on philosophy. I can't remember what he uses misling
to talk about, but the book is fun.
Clearly this problem is all but universal. My mother had the same problem.
The joy of it is that the word describes the problem. It also gives
a word to the spoken English language.
Ian Gent
sometimes a Wombat
addressed to me, you were all probably waiting for me to. Anyway.
I said:
> Another thing that Gould, S.J., taught me was why Social Darwinism
> cannot be correct ---because culture changes by Lamarkian, not
> Darwinian, processes.
To which j...@cs.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy) replied:
>Perhaps Gould, S.J. had an effect on you similar to what it would be
>if S.J. stood for something other than Stephen Jay, i.e. replacing
>your original prejudices by his. What is this "social Darwinism"
>that cannot be correct, and how much does it resemble what the
>people who called *themselves* social Darwinists said?
(Snide aside: very good, you caught my pun with the "S.J.", if not
the point.)
Well, "Social Darwinism" is covered in at least a cursory way in most
history books covering late Victorian culture/society of England or
America. I first encountered it in high school history class. The
idea was that, given "survival of the fittest" --a phrase Darwin never
used --it must be that those that survive the best are in some moral
sense the fittest and best. Applied to human society --which one is
supposed to be able to do since humans are animals --this gives yet
another rational that defends the status quo of society: that it is
good that the industrial "barons" are on top because they are, by
definition, the best. This obviously ties in with the "Protestant
work ethic", which I'm even going to attempt to mangle.
This is roughly the idea one gets from one's history books, at any
rate. I believe Herbert Spencer was involved in the theorizing.
Stephen J. Gould's account of this can be found in a couple essays
of his _Natural History_ columns, and also in a chapter of _Ontogeny
and Phylogeny_ (A curious book, by the way, that covers the history
of related theories, their misuse in society, as well as his own
modern synthesis of the whole sheebang.). It may also be in _The
Mismeasurement of Man_, but I'd have to look it up.
The basic way to demolish SD, leaving aside the fact that it
applies a misquotation of a theory outside the domain of the
theory, is to point out that it is using the _wrong_ theory.
Under (standard) Darwinian evolution, traits aquired by parents
--e.g., large muscles form body-building (okay, I'm tired) --
are not inheirited; change comes from random variation during
conception which is then selected (out). That is, pop's big muscles
do not correlate directly with how beefy son is (but how easy
it is for each to build themselves up might be, so my example is
weak). Inheiritance schemes where aquired traits --those bicepts
--are passed directly on are generally described as Lamarkian.
And culture and society work by Lamarkian inheiritance. If this were
not true, each person and generation would have to reinvent the wheel,
fire, language, highway bilboards, computers, etc. all over again.
In terms of Social Darwinism, the robber barons and their impoverished
workers did not start from scratch, but from the position of their
parents' class and station.
There, did that answer your question? If not, I invite you conduct
research of your own. I'm sure there is much on SD itself in yer
local univeristy library; somehow, I would take with a large grain
of salt any not written by someone with a good grounding in what
Darwin actually said, and understands the science that is was extra-
polated ... much like Gould.
(Should this be in soc.history? Oh well.)
Larry "Next question" Hammer
\ "The work is rather too light, and bright,
L...@albert.physics.arizona.edu \ and sparkling; it wants ... a long chapter
The insane don't need disclaimers \ of solemn specious nonsense." --Jane Austen
Anne Williamson
>in him.
>
When I was about twelve years old, I read Leon Uris' _Exodus_. Incredible as
it may sound, that was the first I had ever heard about the Holocaust. And
for many years after that, I had a definite pro-Israel prejudice. It's mostly
worn off by now, though . . .
>John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
--Anne
Mark Brader
or actually several of them. But the relevant one is defined as "to
confuse, muddle; + to make tipsy; to confuse (a person), to give (one)
wrong information". The + means obsolete, and the whole word is labeled
as "obs. exc. dial. rare". Anyway, one of the former spellings of this
word is... "misle".
I knew about this word because my father, who grew up in Nottingham,
England, said that it was in the local dialect. However, until I looked
it up just now, I assumed it was a back formation from "mislead". The
OED shows spellings with z as always having dominated, and gives the
etymology: "A frequentative formation, perh. suggested by mizmaze."
(So what's mizmaze? "1. A labyrinth or maze (obs.) ... 2. Mystification,
bewildering confusion; a state of delusion or complexity. (Chiefly dial.)
... 3. A blinding radiance (obs.)")
I know someone who used to think "awry" rhymed with "dory", and "askew"
sounded like "ask you". Me, I had the obvious trouble with "indict".
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "He seems unable to win without the added
utzoo!sq!msb, m...@sq.com thrill of changing sides." -- Chess
This article is in the public domain.
Mark Brader
> What *are* the effects of romantic novels on women?
Well, I just saw a reference in rec.arts.movies to a "heroine addict".
Out of the mouths of typos... :-)
--
Mark Brader "Male got pregnant -- on the first try."
utzoo!sq!msb Newsweek article on high-tech conception
m...@sq.com November 30, 1987
David A Keldsen
>In article <JMC.91No...@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> j...@cs.Stanford.EDU writes:
>>but I think I was misled by it.
> ^^^^^^
>When I first read this word--misled--I never connected it with its
>infinitive--to mislead--because I mispronounced it in my head as I
>read: my'-zulled.
[...]
>Has anyone had similar experiences?
For a period in my youth, I labored under the belief that mystery
novels were classified as to quality...by the "whod" unit. It made
perfect sense; blurbs and reviews always talked of whodunits...imagine
my surprise when I heard it pronounced!
In fact, I still run into pronunciation problems caused by a vocabulary
gained from reading.
I note, however, that I am not alone; as Strunk says, "If you don't know
how to pronounce something, _say it loudly_."[*] Is this something that
r.a.b participants are particularly prone to? Comments, anyone?
[* Strunk & White, _The Elements of Style._ Good reading. In fact, good
re-reading.]
Dak
--
David A. 'Dak' Keldsen of SoftQuad, Inc. email: d...@sq.com phone: 416-239-4801
"I daresay you haven't had much practice," said the Queen. "When I was your
age, I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as
many as six impossible things before breakfast." _Through the Looking Glass_
Andrew Clayton
> ewo...@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (eric andrew wolfe) writes:
>
> >In article <JMC.91No...@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> j...@cs.Stanford.EDU writes:
>
> >>but I think I was misled by it.
> > ^^^^^^
>
> I note, however, that I am not alone; as Strunk says, "If you don't know
> how to pronounce something, _say it loudly_."[*] Is this something that
> r.a.b participants are particularly prone to? Comments, anyone?
Flaccid; I've always pronounced it 'Flassid', but it is correctly
pronounced 'Flaxsid'. (excuse the poor attempt at phonetics). I
only found this out last week, and after arguing, I felt foolish
when presented with the evidence.
Dac
--
Jo Hannah x-7344
>infinitive--to mislead--because I mispronounced it in my head as I
>read: my'-zulled.
[...]
>Has anyone had similar experiences?
When my daughter was young it was difficult to explain to her that
if "clothes" were what you wore, when you wanted to change just
your shirt, why wasn't it just one "cloe".
She's an adult now, and is the family mixed metaphor champ.
Doug Philips
>Flaccid; I've always pronounced it 'Flassid', but it is correctly
>pronounced 'Flaxsid'. (excuse the poor attempt at phonetics). I
>only found this out last week, and after arguing, I felt foolish
>when presented with the evidence.
Correctly? According to: _The_Random_House_Dictionary_,
paperback edition, copyright 1980,
ISBN: 0-345-32298-3, Tenth printing: August 1989
flac*cid (flack''sid, flas''id), @i(adj.) soft and limp: @i(flaccid biceps.)
where: * -- top half of a colon, or "flying dot",
'' -- emboldened acute accent.
@i() -- encloses italicized text.
-Doug
Jack Campin
> Still, no-one admits that a book ever reinforced or created a prejudice
> in him.
I think that if you look at the writings of the people you are most likely
to accuse of Political Correctness you'll find a lot of examples. I posted
one here in the "books that fuck you up" thread of a few months ago: the
writings of Fritz Perls, in particular in their setting as mediated by the
creeps who constitute the Gestalt Therapy movement. What this *could* have
got me into was some variant of the fuck-you-Jack-I'm-all-right middle-
class-intelligentsia ideology usually labelled "libertarianism" by its US
adherents.
Another one I've just remembered: my father's town planning books and
architectural journals. These were written from a lofty elitist viewpoint
implying that _of course_ it was all right to zone the grungiest, most
polluted areas of town as "working class housing" and _of course_ there was
no question of people like you and me having to live in them. When I could
see this sort of authoritarian bigotry reinforced every day by the fact
that the town I grew up in was constructed according to those exact
principles, it had a powerful effect. It tooks years for me to realize
that my caste _did not_ have the right to regulate the lives of lesser
mortals like this.
One thing that helped me get over it was precisely a feature of this stuff
intended to reinforce the message: the philosophizing that went along with
it. Architectural philosophizing is like no other mode of discourse I've
ever come across; it was such obscurantist gobbledygook that encountering
the writings of people like Paul Goodman, whose ideas could be expressed in
ordinary English, made it immediately clear that the planners were not just
waffling, there was something being deliberately concealed.
(My father designed public buildings: these ranged from things I have no
problem with in retrospect, like post offices and research labs, to
courthouses and borstals. He didn't make any distinction between these
different kinds of work, and neither did I at the time. One of his
courthouses got blown to splinters by Maori activists: good for them).
--
-- Jack Campin Computing Science Department, Glasgow University, 17 Lilybank
Gardens, Glasgow G12 8QQ, Scotland 041 339 8855 x6854 work 041 556 1878 home
JANET: ja...@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk BANG!net: via mcsun and ukc FAX: 041 330 4913
INTERNET: via nsfnet-relay.ac.uk BITNET: via UKACRL UUCP: ja...@glasgow.uucp
Jose M Cunha
There is a new group called alt.gothic, just in case anyone interested.
The group is mostly about gothic stuff. Gee isn't that clever? :-)
Does the net believe that the definition of Gothic has changed as
we approach the new millenium, what with the Vampire trend and all?
Murthy Yenamandra
>pronounced 'Flaxsid'. (excuse the poor attempt at phonetics). I
>only found this out last week, and after arguing, I felt foolish
>when presented with the evidence.
Dunno about the "correct" Aussie pronounciation, but my online webster gives
\'flas-ed, 'flak-sed\. So, be careful when you feel compelled to correct
people from the US :-).
>Dac
Murthy
--
"I'm guided by a signal in the heavens,
I'm guided by this birthmark on my skin;
I'm guided by the beauty of our weapons,
First, we take Manhattan; then we take Berlin..."
Fiona Oceanstar
> There is a new group called alt.gothic, just in case anyone interested.
I've been checking in on it from time to time, but 99% of what I've seen
there is about gothic music, which I presume is a variant on heavy
metal? Someone did quote Yeats' "Second Coming" in full, without
comment, which was mildly amusing. 'Meant as a warning, perhaps? :-)
> Does the net believe that the definition of Gothic has changed as
>we approach the new millenium, what with the Vampire trend and all?
I love this bold personification of "the net." A multi-headed hydra
indeed!
But getting back to your question, a couple of things come to mind: one
is that the meanings that accrue to the word "gothic" are notoriously
slippery, and with regard to fiction, the prominent horror-lit critic
S. T. Joshi writes, in his _The_Weird_Tale_:
I find the term "Gothic fiction" very clumsy for
anything written subsequent to Poe.
More interestingly, it appears that some horror writers are
trying to reinvent this term--calling it "the New Gothic"--
in the manner of "New Journalism" or "New Criticism," I suppose.
Here's a little sample of this discussion, excerpted from an
article sent to me recently:
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: _The_Spectrum_ (a campus rag--U. of Buffalo, I think)
Subject: Re: New Gothic Conference with Peter Straub
By: Eric C. Fleming
Torture from within the mind, death, vampires, zombies with perverse sexuality,
neurosis, paranoia, eternal damnation, dank vaults and crumbling fungoid
castles--that's gothic. Poe is considered the founder of this genre with his
work, "The Fall of the House of Usher".
[synopsis of tale deleted]
OLD HORROR UPDATED
A new horror style is emerging, featuring New Gothic authors such as Peter
Straub, Kathy Acker, Paul West, Lynne Tillman and Bradford Morrow. These
authors are trying to move away from the 'props' of the early gothic. Their
work seeks to internalize the terror of the mind within the mind and leaves the
eerie castles and murky dungeons at the door. The New Gothic authors
acknowledge Poe as their mentor, but 'strive to surpass their past by moving
towards an internalized sensibility,' according to Dennis Tedlock, professor of
English.
Tedlock said, 'The readings, panel and audience responses will constitute the
first trial run, anywhere, of the idea that there is such a thing as a 'New
Gothic,' and will play a key role in the future shape and trajectory of the
idea.'
[this panel was apparently held on November 8, 1991.]
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
I admit to being a bit of a sucker for anything with the word "New"
pasted on the front of it. More seriously, though, this sort of
capital-letter defining of a sub-genre--which is probably at least
partly in response to the widespread use of the term "splatterpunk"--
may give rise to increased critical attention to horror literature.
--always hopeful Fi
Jack Campin
> From: _The_Spectrum_ .... By: Eric C. Fleming
> Torture from within the mind, death, vampires, zombies with perverse
> sexuality, neurosis, paranoia, eternal damnation, dank vaults and crumbling
> genre with his work, "The Fall of the House of Usher".
It started a good bit earlier, surely? I thought the first honest-to-
Azathoth gothic novel was generally acknowledged to be Beckford's "Vathek",
which has pretty near all of the above and dates from 1787. I read it a
couple of days ago.
It's crap.
The plot is a chaotic rambling mess vaguely based on the Faust legend.
There is next to no dialogue because Beckford probably had no idea how to
write it. Character motivations are nil; Vathek's original descent into
evil and brief attack of piety are left as unexplained as Nouronihar's
transformation from innocent waif to Satanic sadist. On the other hand
it's reasonably well informed about Arabic and Persian folklore (people in
the Christian world were obviously better educated about that in the 18th
century than they are now) and there are a couple of humorous touches -
Vathek's mum is straight out of the Addams Family, and there is a nice gag
where the man given custodianship of Vathek's humungous tower realizes that
it isn't that useful an asset "for he had seen nothing brought thereto but
female negroes, mutes, and abominable drugs".
Poe is very, very much better.
felix power
>In article <JMC.91No...@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> j...@cs.Stanford.EDU writes:
>
>>but I think I was misled by it.
> ^^^^^^
>
I had a worrying experience aged 16 the day before my English 'o' level
exam. My English teacher gave me back my last practise essay saying :
"I just realised. I'd always known something bothered me about your
work. You've been spelling because `becouse' the whole time I've been
teaching you and I've just spotted it!"
So I had to get the proper spelling into my head in 24 hours and to
try and work out why I'd had such a useless bunch of English teachers
all my life!
--
o____
(}:^)
8----
David J. Murphy
(Jack Campin) writes:
+f...@grebyn.com (Fiona Oceanstar) wrote:
+> From: _The_Spectrum_ .... By: Eric C. Fleming
+> Torture from within the mind, death, vampires, zombies with perverse
+> sexuality, neurosis, paranoia, eternal damnation, dank vaults and crumbling
+> fungoid castles - that's gothic. Poe is considered the founder of this
+> genre with his work, "The Fall of the House of Usher".
+
+It started a good bit earlier, surely? I thought the first honest-to-
+Azathoth gothic novel was generally acknowledged to be Beckford's "Vathek",
+which has pretty near all of the above and dates from 1787.
Doesn't Walpole's "The Castle of Otranto: A Gothic Story" date from ~1770?
---dave murphy internet: djmu...@wam.umd.edu (NeXT)
eric andrew wolfe
Yepper. The back of the Oxford pbk. edition lists 1764 as the first
publishing date, and the blurb calls it "The *earliest*, the most
influential, and one of the most entertaining of the Gothic novels . .
." (emphasis added). For whatever that's worth . . .
Eric Wolfe
David Chalmers
>
>infinitive--to mislead--because I mispronounced it in my head as I
>read: my'-zulled.
>
My mother claimed to have had exactly the same experience.
There is a very nice short article about just this in Quine's book
_Quiddities_. Quine thinks that "misle" is too good a word to waste
and co-opts it for his own purposes. A couple of his examples of the
phenomenon of "misling":
Soap that is labeled "99 44/100 percent pure".
[Pure what?]
Soup cans that are bigger than usual, because water is already added,
that further include the label "full strength; no need to add water".
A salmon canner, whose salmon is white instead of the proper pink,
attaches the label "guaranteed not to turn red in the can".
None of these is strictly *false*, but...
--
Dave Chalmers (da...@cogsci.indiana.edu)
Center for Research on Concepts and Cognition, Indiana University.
"It is not the least charm of a theory that it is refutable."
Partha S. Banerjee
In article <1991Nov16.0...@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> chal...@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (David Chalmers) writes:
#
#There is a very nice short article about just this in Quine's book
#_Quiddities_. Quine thinks that "misle" is too good a word to waste
#and co-opts it for his own purposes. A couple of his examples of the
#phenomenon of "misling":
#
# Soap that is labeled "99 44/100 percent pure".
# [Pure what?]
#
# Soup cans that are bigger than usual, because water is already added,
# that further include the label "full strength; no need to add water".
#
# A salmon canner, whose salmon is white instead of the proper pink,
# attaches the label "guaranteed not to turn red in the can".
#
#None of these is strictly *false*, but...
#
#--
#Dave Chalmers (da...@cogsci.indiana.edu)
#Center for Research on Concepts and Cognition, Indiana University.
#"It is not the least charm of a theory that it is refutable."
Thanks for that CHOLESTEROL FREE nutricious post. :-)
(read it while it still certifiably FRESH)
--psb
/*\*/*\*/*\*/*\*/*\*/*\*/*\*/*\*/*\*/*\*/*\*/*\*/*\*/*\*/*\*/*\*/*\*/*\*/*\*/*\
|* Partha S. Banerjee Sic volo, Sic jubeo; *|
|* <p...@Berkeley.EDU> || <{spine}!ucbvax!psb> Stat pro ratione voluntas *|
\*/*\*/*\*/*\*/*\*/*\*/*\*/*\*/*\*/*\*/*\*/*\*/*\*/*\*/*\*/*\*/*\*/*\*/*\*/*\*/
Fiona Oceanstar
>>+> Torture from within the mind, death, vampires, zombies with perverse
>>+> sexuality, neurosis, paranoia, eternal damnation, dank vaults and crumbling
>>+> fungoid castles - that's gothic. Poe is considered the founder of this
>>+> genre with his work, "The Fall of the House of Usher".
Jack Campin asks:
>>+It started a good bit earlier, surely? I thought the first honest-to-
>>+Azathoth gothic novel was generally acknowledged to be Beckford's "Vathek",
>>+which has pretty near all of the above and dates from 1787.
Dave Murphy asks:
>>Doesn't Walpole's "The Castle of Otranto: A Gothic Story" date from ~1770?
Eric Wolfe says:
>Yepper. The back of the Oxford pbk. edition lists 1764 as the first
>publishing date, and the blurb calls it "The *earliest*, the most
>influential, and one of the most entertaining of the Gothic novels . .
>." (emphasis added). For whatever that's worth . . .
It's worth a fair amount, since Walpole's book is commonly considered
a benchmark, but we're getting a little carried away here with
correcting Fleming's remark. What he said about Poe being the "founder
of the genre" doesn't make sense, of course, in the context of the
S. T. Joshi quote I included in the same posting--about the term
"gothic" being awkward for anything since Poe. Fleming and Joshi
aren't talking about the same "gothic." What Joshi (and the 3 of y'all)
are referring to, is the original line of gothic fiction. What Fleming
seems to be indicating, is the long and tawdry series of "gothics" that
have delighted thousands of Americans--especially women--those gaudy,
silly, romantic, somewhat spooky, trash novels with castles and
Heathcliff clones and buxom maidens falling out of their dresses on
the covers. The context implies this, because why else would Straub
and crew be making such a fuss about proclaiming a "New Gothic" fiction,
if not to differentiate themselves from the aforementioned trash?
(I'm using the word "trash" in the pop-culture-technical sense. (-:)
--Fiona
Sandra Loosemore
Fleming and Joshi
aren't talking about the same "gothic." What Joshi (and the 3 of y'all)
are referring to, is the original line of gothic fiction. What Fleming
seems to be indicating, is the long and tawdry series of "gothics" that
have delighted thousands of Americans--especially women--those gaudy,
silly, romantic, somewhat spooky, trash novels with castles and
Heathcliff clones and buxom maidens falling out of their dresses on
the covers.
Ah, but are they really that different? From my perspective, I see a
long and continuous tradition of "gothic" romance. As others have
noted, the genre developed in the late 1700's, when Ann Radcliffe was
probably its strongest proponent. Other authors of works of this sort
include Emily Bronte, Mary Elizabeth Braddon, Wilkie Collins, Mrs.
Henry Wood, and Louisa May Alcott in the 19th century, and Daphne du
Maurier in the 20th. Plot elements like kidnappings, murder, spooky
castles with locked rooms and secret passages, mistaken burials, the
villain(ess) in disguise, the outwardly respectable person with a
horrible secret, illegitimate births, and so on have been popular for
a *long* time. The main difference I see between the kind of modern
gothics you describe and something like "The Mysteries of Udolpho" is
that it's no longer considered obligatory for the heroine to faint
every 20 pages or so. :-)
-Sandra
Michelle L. Zafron
>>>+> From: _The_Spectrum_ .... By: Eric C. Fleming
>>>+> Torture from within the mind, death, vampires, zombies with perverse
>>>+> sexuality, neurosis, paranoia, eternal damnation, dank vaults and crumbling
>>>+> fungoid castles - that's gothic. Poe is considered the founder of this
>>>+> genre with his work, "The Fall of the House of Usher".
>Jack Campin asks:
>>>+It started a good bit earlier, surely? I thought the first honest-to-
>>>+Azathoth gothic novel was generally acknowledged to be Beckford's "Vathek",
>>>+which has pretty near all of the above and dates from 1787.
>Dave Murphy asks:
>>>Doesn't Walpole's "The Castle of Otranto: A Gothic Story" date from ~1770?
>Eric Wolfe says:
>>Yepper. The back of the Oxford pbk. edition lists 1764 as the first
>>publishing date, and the blurb calls it "The *earliest*, the most
>>influential, and one of the most entertaining of the Gothic novels . .
>>." (emphasis added). For whatever that's worth . . .
I'm the one who sent Fiona the article. First of all, let me say that the
paper from which it comes is a poorly written one. Secondly, later in the
article Fleming mentions that Poe was not the founder of the Gothic and cites
some earlier authors like Matthew Lewis and Walpole.
>It's worth a fair amount, since Walpole's book is commonly considered
>a benchmark, but we're getting a little carried away here with
>correcting Fleming's remark. What he said about Poe being the "founder
>of the genre" doesn't make sense, of course, in the context of the
>S. T. Joshi quote I included in the same posting--about the term
>"gothic" being awkward for anything since Poe. Fleming and Joshi
>aren't talking about the same "gothic." What Joshi (and the 3 of y'all)
>are referring to, is the original line of gothic fiction. What Fleming
>seems to be indicating, is the long and tawdry series of "gothics" that
>have delighted thousands of Americans--especially women--those gaudy,
>silly, romantic, somewhat spooky, trash novels with castles and
>Heathcliff clones and buxom maidens falling out of their dresses on
>the covers. The context implies this, because why else would Straub
>and crew be making such a fuss about proclaiming a "New Gothic" fiction,
>if not to differentiate themselves from the aforementioned trash?
>(I'm using the word "trash" in the pop-culture-technical sense. (-:)
>
> --Fiona
At the panel someone asked the "New Gothic" authors "Basically what you do is
say 'Boo' and make the reader jump?" (I'm quoting very loosely here). The
authors didn't really like that. In a certain simplistic sense though, that is
what they do. The way in which they make us jump is what makes them "New".
What they seem to be trying to do is move horror into the modern spaces. They
want to get away from the dusty secret passages and the ancestral ghosts.
The original gothics (Walpole, Radcliffe,etc.) were full of the secret rooms,
and the family curses, and the ghosts clanking chains. The terror and the
horror are far distant from the world of the reader. Even for 18th century
readers, the settings were fantastical. Even the gothic "trash" of today, the
romance novels that is, keeps the machinery of the old gothic. They may not
do it very well, but they're borrowing from the original source.
Straub & co. have gotten away from that. The settings are right here. In your
split-level, in your apartment, on the subway. I don't know, maybe they are
trying to achieve pure terror...
There's more to it than that, but you get the idea.
--Michelle L. Zafron (v101...@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Suppose that you were an idiot and suppose you were a member of Congress. But
I repeat myself."
--Mark Twain
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John McCarthy
because the sources pointed to all use the term as a whipping boy.
I asked how the people who called themselves social Darwinists explained
it, not what their enemies said they must have meant.
--
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.
Jose M Cunha
>In article <JMC.91No...@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> j...@cs.Stanford.EDU writes:
>
>Ahem.
>
>When I was in my early teens, I discovered Robert Heinlein. More
>specifically, I read _Time Enough For Love_, and the notebooks of
>Lazarus Long therein. It was through this, I realized the importance
>of having an ethical system. So I developed one, heavily based on
>what I could get out of that book and others by Heinlein ---but
>not, curiously, _Stranger in a Strange Land_, which I didn't believe.
>
>It took several years to figure out why Heinlein/Lazarus was wrong,
>or at least wrong for me. It wasn't overturned suddenly; bits and
>pieces were replaced as I grew up, and just about all of it has
>been discarded except for an operational definition of love which
>I reserve for arguments. I can't think of any single influence on
I think Heinlein to be rather influential, because of what I read
from him, I decided that I had to form my own moral system, since someone
else's morals didn't necessarily apply to me. It didn't make me Amoral,
but it did make me a non-practicing-Agnostic. :-)
Ann Carlson
|> Ah, but are they really that different? From my perspective, I see a
|> long and continuous tradition of "gothic" romance. As others have
|> noted, the genre developed in the late 1700's, when Ann Radcliffe was
|> probably its strongest proponent. Other authors of works of this sort
|> include Emily Bronte, Mary Elizabeth Braddon, Wilkie Collins, Mrs.
|> Henry Wood, and Louisa May Alcott in the 19th century, and Daphne du
|> Maurier in the 20th. Plot elements like kidnappings, murder, spooky
|> castles with locked rooms and secret passages, mistaken burials, the
|> villain(ess) in disguise, the outwardly respectable person with a
|> horrible secret, illegitimate births, and so on have been popular for
|> a *long* time. The main difference I see between the kind of modern
|> gothics you describe and something like "The Mysteries of Udolpho" is
|> that it's no longer considered obligatory for the heroine to faint
|> every 20 pages or so. :-)
|>
|> -Sandra
????
I don't remember the heroine in Mysteries of Udolpho fainting very often.
Acutally, what I remember is that she was always getting frustrated with
her maid, who fainted and was always collapsing in terror whenever anything
happened. I thought the heroine was rather plucky.
--
************************************************
*Ann B. Carlson (car...@ab00.larc.nasa.gov) * O .
*MS 366 * o _///_ //
*NASA Langley Research Center * <`)= _<<
*Hampton, VA 23665-5225 * \\\ \\
*(804) 864-7050 *
************************************************
sometimes a Wombat
>because the sources pointed to all use the term as a whipping boy.
>I asked how the people who called themselves social Darwinists explained
>it, not what their enemies said they must have meant.
I don't know if this helps, but in _Ontogeny and Phylogeny_, Prof.
Gould does a good job of quoting from original sources, not
commentators. Farther than that, you're have to go to a professional
historians account.
Tho', to be honest, I wasn't particularly interested in the authentic
statements of the Social Darwinists when I made my original comment.
I was speaking to the class of theories loosely call Social Darwinism,
and why they can't be right on general grounds.
Larry "loose lips sink posts" Hammer
L...@albert.physics.arizona.edu \ "One like a wombat prowled obtuse
The insane don't need disclaimers \ and furry" --Christina Rossetti
Mason Jones
>Azathoth gothic novel was generally acknowledged to be Beckford's "Vathek",
>which has pretty near all of the above and dates from 1787. I read it a
>couple of days ago.
I've usually heard "The Castle of Otranto" cited as one of the first
examples of gothic literature as well. I don't recall the publication
date at the moment, unfortunately, and I don't have the book at hand
to check. It's a rather fun read.
Other personal favorites include, of course, Leautremont's "Maldoror"
and Huysmans' "La Bas" and "Against Nature" (also known as "A Rebour").
VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV
Mason Jones, H&A Computer Services, San Francisco, CA (415) 434-3517
...{uunet,sun}!hoptoad!dante!mason or dante!ma...@hop.toad.com
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Clayton Cramer
> j...@cs.Stanford.EDU writes:
# # Still, no-one admits that a book ever reinforced or created a prejudice
# # in him.
#
# I think that if you look at the writings of the people you are most likely
# to accuse of Political Correctness you'll find a lot of examples. I posted
# one here in the "books that fuck you up" thread of a few months ago: the
# writings of Fritz Perls, in particular in their setting as mediated by the
# creeps who constitute the Gestalt Therapy movement. What this *could* have
# got me into was some variant of the fuck-you-Jack-I'm-all-right middle-
# class-intelligentsia ideology usually labelled "libertarianism" by its US
# adherents.
That's #1... (and many of us are NOW middle-class -- I didn't grow up
that well off and in my experience, neither have most libertarians).
# Another one I've just remembered: my father's town planning books and
# architectural journals. These were written from a lofty elitist viewpoint
# implying that _of course_ it was all right to zone the grungiest, most
# polluted areas of town as "working class housing" and _of course_ there was
# no question of people like you and me having to live in them. When I could
# see this sort of authoritarian bigotry reinforced every day by the fact
# that the town I grew up in was constructed according to those exact
# principles, it had a powerful effect. It tooks years for me to realize
# that my caste _did not_ have the right to regulate the lives of lesser
# mortals like this.
# -- Jack Campin Computing Science Department, Glasgow University, 17 Lilybank
That's #2. You don't suppose that the reason for #1 is because most
of us have grown up #2 (called liberalism in the U.S.), and see no
reason to justify its continued existence?
--
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer My opinions, all mine!
Murderers, rapists, and armed robbers have already decided to commit the most
serious of crimes. How does the minor punishment associated with carrying of
weapons deter such a person? Only the victims are deterred from self-defense.
Ian Heavens
>Other personal favorites include, of course, Leautremont's "Maldoror"
>and Huysmans' "La Bas" and "Against Nature" (also known as "A Rebour").
Probably well known anecdote on r.a.b: Huysman's 'A Rebours'
(literally, 'Against the Grain') is the 'yellow book'
which has such an effect on Dorian in Oscar Wilde's 'Picture of
Dorian Gray'.
A great book, I particularily liked the English holiday that begins
and ends in an 'English pub' in Paris.
ian
---
Ian Heavens i...@spider.co.uk
Spider Systems Ltd
Spider Park, Stanwell Street
Edinburgh, EH6 5NG, Scotland +44 31 554 9424 (Ext 4166)
--
Earl Boebert
>In article <1991Nov18.1...@dante.uucp> ma...@dante.uucp.UUCP (Mason Jones) writes:
>>Other personal favorites include, of course, Leautremont's "Maldoror"
>>and Huysmans' "La Bas" and "Against Nature" (also known as "A Rebour").
>Probably well known anecdote on r.a.b: Huysman's 'A Rebours'
>(literally, 'Against the Grain') is the 'yellow book'
>which has such an effect on Dorian in Oscar Wilde's 'Picture of
>Dorian Gray'.
>A great book, I particularily liked the English holiday that begins
>and ends in an 'English pub' in Paris.
Well, and now a question ... I recall (or possibly misremember)
reading an essay somewhere that claimed _A Rebours_ to be the one and
only example of the Symbolist school of writing. Does this assertion
sound familiar to anyone, and if so, could they briefly explain the
defining characteristics of this school? (Other than by pointing to
the one example :-))
Earl
Col. G. L. Sicherman
>
> ... I posted
> one here in the "books that fuck you up" thread of a few months ago: the
> writings of Fritz Perls, in particular in their setting as mediated by the
> creeps who constitute the Gestalt Therapy movement. What this *could* have
> got me into was some variant of the fuck-you-Jack-I'm-all-right middle-
> class-intelligentsia ideology usually labelled "libertarianism" by its US
> adherents.
Laissez-faire was a favorite with the affluent long before Perls; see also
"social darwinism."
I've seen Perls's work criticized by other clinical psychologists as
unsystematic and misguided, and I've read Tom Wolfe's account of what
happened when the Merry Pranksters rolled into Esalen ... but I've
never seen Gestalt Therapy linked with the libertarianism-objectivism-
propertarianism school of politics. I've always regarded "political
philosophy" as an oxymoron at least as old than Plato, and I *like*
gestalt therapy.
Gestalt therapy advises you to take full responsibility for your own
feelings and acts, and none for those of others. That's hardly the
same as advising you to do nothing for others. Indeed, Perls's work
encourages doing anything for others except having their feelings for
them.
But then, since Esalen and Pasadena are both in California, there's no
telling what may have become of gestaltism since I first read _Gestalt
Therapy: Excitement and Growth in the Human Personality_ ... a classic
of the literature, no matter what has become of the movement.
-:-
"One draws a circle, beginning anywhere."
--Charles Fort
--
Col. G. L. Sicherman
g...@windmill.att.COM
Jack Campin
[ in reponse to my citing Fritz Perls as an
author who'd been a malign influence on me ]
> I've seen Perls's work criticized by other clinical psychologists as
> unsystematic and misguided, and I've read Tom Wolfe's account of what
> happened when the Merry Pranksters rolled into Esalen ... but I've
> never seen Gestalt Therapy linked with the libertarianism-objectivism-
> Gestalt therapy advises you to take full responsibility for your own
> feelings and acts, and none for those of others. That's hardly the
> same as advising you to do nothing for others. Indeed, Perls's work
> encourages doing anything for others except having their feelings for
> them.
I didn't say Perls was personally involved in that kind of politics (nobody
who co-authored a book with Paul Goodman can be all bad), but some of the
Gestalt therapists I've run into have had inclinations that way, and that
was the direction it threatened to push me into. The original question was
about the _effects_ of books on their readers, not the author's intention
or anything explicitly present in the text itself.
If there's one psychotherapist I've developed a lasting loathing for, it's
Jung, but his racism (to the effect that Negroes have more primitive mental
lives than white Europeans and Germans in particular) never even slightly
threatened to influence me. Might be different with other people. Anyone
out there ever actually believe him on that one?