Who wrote 'Zen and the art of Motorcycle Maintenance'?
Toby Blake
Thanks,
Toby.
Jane Skinner
>Who wrote the above?
Robert Pirsig. Load of pretentious shite if you ask me, but you
didn't so I'll shut up.
Jane.
--
"Because it is cur-tailed."
S. Maturin
Francis Muir
Toby Blake writes:
Who wrote the above?
Robert Pirsig. Load of pretentious shite if you ask me,
but you didn't so I'll shut up.
Addendum. If you've heard that he knows nothing about the Z stuff let me
also disabuse you about his scoot knowledge. It is zip. Take it from one
whose first paying job was designing the exhaust cam profile of the
Vincent-HRD Black Lightening. A particularly happy summer job improved
when the shop steward said he'd bring everyone out on strike if I was not
paid to code. I've been a TU supporter ever since.
Fido, Scots and English by birth
Manx by inclination and adoption
Jeffrey A. Del Col
In a previous article, fra...@pangea.Stanford.EDU (Francis Muir) says:
>Jane Skinner writes:
>
> Toby Blake writes:
>
> Who wrote the above?
>
> Robert Pirsig. Load of pretentious shite if you ask me,
> but you didn't so I'll shut up.
>
>Addendum. If you've heard that he knows nothing about the Z stuff let me
>also disabuse you about his scoot knowledge. It is zip. Take it from one
>whose first paying job was designing the exhaust cam profile of the
>Vincent-HRD Black Lightening. A particularly happy summer job improved
>when the shop steward said he'd bring everyone out on strike if I was not
>paid to code. I've been a TU supporter ever since.
I believe Pirsig also has BMW's as chain drive bikes rather than drive
shaft machines.
>
> Fido, Scots and English by birth
> Manx by inclination and adoption
>
And currently welshing on prize
money.
J. Del Col
--
Jeff Del Col * "Sleeplessness is like metaphysics.
A-B College * Be there."
Philippi, WV *
* ----Charles Simic----
C Burke
> Fido, Scots and English by birth
> Manx by inclination and adoption
What? You have no tail? How can we know when you are happy, then?
Perchance you are a mad smiling Manx, who growls for pleasure, but
then how can we know when you are angry?
Alice
Jeffrey A. Del Col
I was wondering myself whether Francis was a "rumpie" or a "stumpie."
Does he move with a peculiar, bunnyish hopping gait? A bad business
aboard ship, I would think.
J. Del Col (Re-reading Jay Wright's BOLEROS and about to start
Donoso's TARATUTA/STILL LIFE WITH PIPE and,
for the holidays, Jack Harkness' ROSES.)
Vivek Kalra
--
Vivek email address signature
dsclmr: any ideas above, if there, are mine. All mine. And an illusion.
Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to weave.
Quote for the day: '
One Hot Babe
> Robert Pirsig. Load of pretentious shite if you ask me, but you
> didn't so I'll shut up.
> Jane.
What? I loved that book. I read it years ago in High School and thought
my teacher had a lot of guts for teaching it! I guess you only confirmed
the idea that a person brings a lot of themselves to whatever book they
read. I don't mean that you are pretentious, I just mean that we all get
different things out of a book and I loved "Zen...." I just though I
would put my own personal two cents worth in :).
***************************************************************************
Jennifer Swift |The consciousness of pleasure in men and women is |
swif...@uidaho.edu |different-a man thinks "This woman is united with me"|
Opinionated Student |a woman thinks "I am united with this man." |
with an *attitude* | -The Kama Sutra |
***************************************************************************
Rita Rouvalis
One Hot Babe <swif...@raven.csrv.uidaho.edu> wrote:
>What? I loved that book. I read it years ago in High School and thought
>my teacher had a lot of guts for teaching it! I guess you only confirmed
>the idea that a person brings a lot of themselves to whatever book they
>read. I don't mean that you are pretentious, I just mean that we all get
>different things out of a book and I loved "Zen...." I just though I
>would put my own personal two cents worth in :).
When you've actually read Plato, _Zen_ leaves a lot to
be desired. I did think it was a fairly readable and interesting
account of mental illness, though. Especially the interaction
(or lack thereof) between the author and his son.
--
Rita Rouvalis
ri...@cc.ysu.edu
"Every poem breaks a silence that had to be overcome" - Adrienne Rich
NNTP remote postings
Francis Muir <fra...@pangea.Stanford.EDU> wrote:
>Jane Skinner writes:
>
> Robert Pirsig. Load of pretentious shite if you ask me,
> but you didn't so I'll shut up.
>
>Addendum. If you've heard that he knows nothing about the Z stuff let me
>also disabuse you about his scoot knowledge. It is zip. Take it from one
>whose first paying job was designing the exhaust cam profile of the
>Vincent-HRD Black Lightening. A particularly happy summer job improved
>when the shop steward said he'd bring everyone out on strike if I was not
>paid to code. I've been a TU supporter ever since.
>
I liked the book a lot, though I read it maybe 16 years ago.
I've been riding and working on motorcycles for almost 24
years, and I found his knowledge of bikes to be adequate. I
don't recall him talking about Zen much at all in the book.
Mark Giffin
mgi...@retix.com
rustin w allred
that they didn't learn more about that stuff missed the point. _Zen_
is one of the most meaningful books I've read, including such technical
wonders as _Digital Filtering_ by Richard Hamming.
Robert Pirsig's new book, _Lila_, is also very good.
-rusty
--
| Rusty Allred, PhD | |
| Texas Instruments | I speak for nobody, including myself. |
| all...@lobby.ti.com | |
Will Duquette
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Jane Skinner (ja...@mrc-bsu.cam.ac.uk) wrote:
> Robert Pirsig. Load of pretentious shite if you ask me, but you
> didn't so I'll shut up.
> Jane.
What? I loved that book. I read it years ago in High School and thought
my teacher had a lot of guts for teaching it! I guess you only confirmed
the idea that a person brings a lot of themselves to whatever book they
read. I don't mean that you are pretentious, I just mean that we all get
different things out of a book and I loved "Zen...." I just though I
would put my own personal two cents worth in :).
I really liked it as well. Not so much for the Plato, or for
Phaedrus' investigations into Quality (the man *was* going insane,
after all), but for some of the other things, such as his discussion of the
"romantic" vs. "classic" points of view. This distinction is
particularly blatant when a long-time computer user attempts to teach
a newbie. Also, I love his idea of "gumption traps" and how to avoid
them.
The book made me think, and it gave me some useful concepts. What
more can I ask?
Will
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Will Duquette, JPL | William.H...@jpl.nasa.gov
But I speak only | wi...@hal9000.jpl.nasa.gov
for myself. | It's amazing what you can do with the right tools.
Rodney York
Maintenance". I thought it was a great book when I first came across it
(it was the only "popular" paperback amongst the scientific books in
the Library of University College London, so obviously others shared my
opinion). Rather than discussing it as a whole I'd like to present two
specific ideas that I found useful. (Forgive inaccuracies -- it's months since
I last read the book. I'm trying to convey impressions, not quote from the
book).
1. The protagonist (P) fixes a problem on his German BMW motorbike with an
aluminium shim cut out of a beercan and proudly tells his arty,
anti-technological friend John (?) of his brilliant solution. John is
horrified instead of admiring. P eventually works out that this is because
John thinks that this superb bike should only be repaired by using proper
parts from the German factory; using a beercan is almost sacrilegious. P
reflects that a real German engineer would find the soft malleable sheet
cut from a beercan to be the perfect solution.
2. People look to instruction manuals to tell them about things, in preference
even to their own common sense. But look what happens: the factory makes
the widget, then someone comes down from head office and asks for someone
too write the manual. The foreman thinks of Joe, but if they pull him off
the job everything will slow down. Fred? He's the best troubleshooter, and
is solving a problem now. Ah! Bill. He's quite useless, and taking him
away will probably improve productivity. So useless old Bill gets to
write the instructions...
--
Rodney York UK books for export at a discount!
The Online Bookshop Orders within UK at list price, delivered free.
=================== Ask for our 9Kbyte Frequently Asked Questions & Answers
Rick Saenz
Will Duquette <wi...@hal9000.jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
The book made me think, and it gave me some useful concepts. What
more can I ask?
Some books make you think, and some books only make you think you're
thinking. Pirsig's book in the second category, which is why so many
people say they "love" it, rather than saying that it inspired them to
investigate Greek philosophy, or Zen, or motorcycle repair.
Rick Saenz
rustin w allred
: When you've actually read Plato, _Zen_ leaves a lot to
: be desired. I did think it was a fairly readable and interesting
: account of mental illness, though. Especially the interaction
: (or lack thereof) between the author and his son.
I guess I'm just not very smart. I found _Zen and the Art_ tons more
interesting than anything Plato wrote. But I agree, you should read
Plato to learn Plato (and you can learn Zen and motorcycles from lots
of reliable sources), but _Zen and the Art_ offers a way of looking at
life that I find interesting. . .
rustin w allred
: In article <WILL.94De...@hal9000.jpl.nasa.gov>,
: Will Duquette <wi...@hal9000.jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
: Rick Saenz
I'm afraid you're assuming everyone had the same response to the book as
you did. Maybe it made you think you were thinking (which is still
thinking it seems), but it really did make me think (at least I thought it
did!)
My response to the book is that Pirsig had no intention of inspiring
people to investigate Greek philosophy, Zen, bike repair or any such thing.
He was merely using those technical details (inaccurate perhaps) as a
vehicle to show us life from a different point of view.
I'm usually wrong about this stuff but I'd never admit it.
Rick Saenz
rustin w allred <all...@mksol.dseg.ti.com> wrote:
I'm afraid you're assuming everyone had the same response to the book as
you did. Maybe it made you think you were thinking (which is still
thinking it seems), but it really did make me think (at least I thought it
did!)
I'm certain that everyone didn't have the same response to the book,
since it has spawned one of the Arguments That Would Not Die. I myself
have had two different reactions to the book. I read it when it came
out, and "loved" it; that is to say, I accepted it as profound without
knowing a single thing about the issues it discussed, but wasn't
inspired in any way to improve my ignorant state. I read it again
few years back, and knew enough as a result of the twenty or so
intervening years to see that, even without evaluating Pirsig's world
view, Pirsig had totally misrepresented the views he was arguing
against.
My response to the book is that Pirsig had no intention of inspiring
people to investigate Greek philosophy, Zen, bike repair or any such thing.
He was merely using those technical details (inaccurate perhaps) as a
vehicle to show us life from a different point of view.
One of the Pirsig's central claims was that Aristotle had led mankind
down a two-millenium-long blind alley, one that Pirsig was rescuing us
from with his book. Aren't you at least curious to know whether Pirsig
represented Aristotle accurately?
Rick Saenz
Sara Larson
: One of the Pirsig's central claims was that Aristotle had led mankind
: down a two-millenium-long blind alley, one that Pirsig was rescuing us
: from with his book. Aren't you at least curious to know whether Pirsig
: represented Aristotle accurately?
Bingo. I have a difficulty now though. I think every new philosopher
who comes along and builds on past thought misprepresents the dead (as
well as the living, sometimes) in his written work. I really wish I
could come up with a concrete, "drop those disputants in the dust"
example, but I can't. Hey, I'm at work! Think of old Aquinas
retelling Aristotle in a more "politically correct" fashion (if I may
misuse a phrase I dislike intensely). Therefore, just saying that
Pirsig misrepresents every major philosopher whose ideas he discusses
is not enough (though I realize you didn't actually say this). It may
be that since all philosophers do this, they are all fair game for
their spiritual descendents.
Unfortunately, whether or not philosophers are "fair game," reading
Pirsig after reading a little Plato, Aristotle, Descartes, Kant, and
Hegel made me uneasy. I wondered, is it me or is it Pirsig,
interpreting oddly? Whenever this happens, you have to decide: Did he
make it all up? Does he have a good reason for his strange
interpretation? Could be either one. I guess we should go with option
2 if we're being interested readers. I think that reading _Zen_ after
reading a little philosophy must be quite different from reading _Zen_
before a little philosophy. I didn't have the feeling of sudden,
wide-awake and surprising insight which others have described to me. I
enjoyed the story about his family and friends though. Perhaps he was
manipulating the ideas of others into something with or against which
he could work out his personal problems
-Sara
SubGenius
: It is neither about Zen nor about bikes. Those who were dissapointed
: that they didn't learn more about that stuff missed the point. _Zen_
: is one of the most meaningful books I've read, including such technical
: wonders as _Digital Filtering_ by Richard Hamming.
+----------------------------------------SubG----------------------------+
I thought it was a couple months until this particular shibboleth was
due to shamble back around.
Okay: One criticism of the novel in question that I have is one I have
with most forms of `pop' expression of complex issues---they only say
was has been said before and said better.
Therefore: To address the flaws (or strengths) of the novel, why not
outline what in particular leads you to assign the epithet `one of the
most meaningful books' (assuming that you mean this in general and not
just of the books you've read; that is, you induct the rest of the
world of the written word from your sampling [otherwise your praise would
only be only of use to those with a set of referents identical to your
own]) to it?
Yours etc.,
SubGenius
rustin w allred
: In article <1994Dec16....@mksol.dseg.ti.com>,
: rustin w allred <all...@mksol.dseg.ti.com> wrote:
: I'm certain that everyone didn't have the same response to the book,
: since it has spawned one of the Arguments That Would Not Die. I myself
: have had two different reactions to the book. I read it when it came
: out, and "loved" it; that is to say, I accepted it as profound without
: knowing a single thing about the issues it discussed, but wasn't
: inspired in any way to improve my ignorant state. I read it again
: few years back, and knew enough as a result of the twenty or so
: intervening years to see that, even without evaluating Pirsig's world
: view, Pirsig had totally misrepresented the views he was arguing
: against.
I was already an old man before I ever got around to reading _Zen_. I
was interested to see how Pirsig interpreted the world. How can you
say that he misinterpreted it, he interpreted differently from you or
from me but why is his view any less valid? I'm guessing that there
are many who interpret the world in a manner similar to Pirsig's, which
is why the book has been so popular.
: One of the Pirsig's central claims was that Aristotle had led mankind
: down a two-millenium-long blind alley, one that Pirsig was rescuing us
: from with his book. Aren't you at least curious to know whether Pirsig
: represented Aristotle accurately?
I had read some Aristotle before I read Pirsig and have read some since.
Again, why is Pirsig's view of Aristotle's work any less valid than yours
or mine? _Zen_ is about Pirsig's view. I read it to find out what his
view is.
Are you suggesting that if you had discovered that Pirsig's view of
Aristotle was the same as yours you'd have to accept Pirsig's conclusions?
Does the fact that he views Aristotle differently than you automatically
invalidate Pirsig's conclusions?
By the way, _Zen_ did inspire me to do further study. It just didn't
inspire me to read about Zen, or bikes. I did do some further reading in
Greek philosophy, but I prefer Pirsig to that stuff anyday.
OK, OK, I'm just a complete philisophical nitwit,
Rick Saenz
Sara Larson <lar...@cfar.umd.edu wrote:
Rick Saenz (sa...@bga.com) wrote:
: One of the Pirsig's central claims was that Aristotle had led mankind
: down a two-millenium-long blind alley, one that Pirsig was rescuing us
: from with his book. Aren't you at least curious to know whether Pirsig
: represented Aristotle accurately?
Bingo. I have a difficulty now though. I think every new philosopher
who comes along and builds on past thought misprepresents the dead (as
well as the living, sometimes) in his written work. I really wish I
could come up with a concrete, "drop those disputants in the dust"
example, but I can't. Hey, I'm at work! Think of old Aquinas
retelling Aristotle in a more "politically correct" fashion (if I may
misuse a phrase I dislike intensely). Therefore, just saying that
Pirsig misrepresents every major philosopher whose ideas he discusses
is not enough (though I realize you didn't actually say this). It may
be that since all philosophers do this, they are all fair game for
their spiritual descendents.
their misrepresentations are open to correction by still others. The
best example I know of this is Mortimer Adler's _Ten Philosophical
Mistakes_, in which he asserts that many of the positions taken by
Enlightenment philosophers were due to ignorance or misunderstanding
of classic philosophy, primarily Aristotle.
Now, of course, you have to decide if Adler has done any better than
the folks he criticizes in accurately characterizing classical
philosophy. Not easy for the average armchair philosopher, but there
is one useful tool I can recommend: Adler's topical index to the
_Great Books of the Western World_. The index consists of 102 essays
surveying what the authors represented in the _Great Books_ have had
to say on various topics, together with a detailed outline of each
topic with pointers for each subtopic into the relevant texts. So, for
example, you can read the essay on Justice for a survey of what has
been said on the topic; or, if you are particularly interested in what
it means to be ruled, you can look at the outline under subtopic 9d
("The relation of ruler and ruled: the justice of the prince or
statesman and of the subject or citizen.") and get pointers to what
the Old Testament or Plato Or Machiavelli or Gibbon or Tolstoy had to
say on the subject.
Rick Saenz
root@calamus
Pirsig says in the beginning about the book not being very factual
about motorcycles or Zen, and followed more the idea that one should
not take the machines and technology around us as evil necessities, to
be feared or respected but not to be understood. I still think of
Pirsig's "gumption" when I'm working on a project and getting stuck
(like getting my newsreader to post the correct return address. If
mail bounces to me, by the way, use the address in my sig). I have had
many conversations over the years about the idea of Quality as
expressed by Pirsig. I have found it disturbing that people do
separate into classical and romantic mindsets (though with many
artists now using computers for their art, that might not be true.
However, of those people I know who are have a romantic, humanities-
oriented background still retain some fear of the beast, ameliorated
by the friendliness of the Macintosh in the case of most graphic art).
I wouldn't be able to say that for most of the people I have seen
here, in rab, since they have a combination of artistic appreciation
to be interested in books, and technical know-how to get here. But I
don't think the long-term denizens of rab are truly representative of
the world at large (Sorry, folks). I also found his "notes" on
teaching composition a solace when I was teaching it. I can say it
affected me deeply because I was young when I read it, and many things
that should perhaps have been tied to weightier philosophers and
academics were instead tied to Pirsig, who was the first to point
these things out to me.
--
"I dont hate it," Quentin said quickly, at once, immediately; "I dont
hate it," he said. I dont hate it he thought, panting in the cold air,
the iron New England dark: I dont. I dont. I dont hate it! I dont hate it!
/Michael Wise/wwhi...@nevada.edu/M.A. English/have notebook, will travel/
Will Duquette
I don't really want to get into an argument here--but it seems kind of
presumptuous of you to assume that the book only made me think I was
thinking. I stand by my original statement.
Robert Groover
[after quoting a sneer from someone else]
>I'm afraid you're assuming everyone had the same response to the book as
>you did. Maybe it made you think you were thinking (which is still
>thinking it seems), but it really did make me think (at least I thought it
>did!)
>My response to the book is that Pirsig had no intention of inspiring
>people to investigate Greek philosophy, Zen, bike repair or any such thing.
I was surprised when I read it to find that it said some interesting
things about Presocratic philosophy - it sent me back to read Kirk&Raven,
and in the years since it has helped me to be aware that not all
philosophy is necessarily dry-as-dust. I'm sure I'm not the only person
who had this reaction.
Robert Groover
gro...@netcom.com
pat...@attmail.com
Douglas Clark
I thought an awful lot of this book. The pre-Socratic idea of
Quality seemed very Heideggerian. A remarkable confluence of
the personal and the thinking process. Recommended.
Lila isnt in the same class.
--
Douglas Clark Voice : +44 1225 427104
69 Hillcrest Drive, Email : D.G.D...@bath.ac.uk
Bath, Avon, BA2 1HD, UK Books : http://www.bath.ac.uk/~exxdgdc
Keith Morgan
Will Duquette <wi...@hal9000.jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
The book made me think, and it gave me some useful concepts.
What more can I ask?
>Some books make you think, and some books only make you think you're
>thinking. Pirsig's book in the second category, which is why so many
>people say they "love" it, rather than saying that it inspired them to
>investigate Greek philosophy, or Zen, or motorcycle repair.
I think that Rick's take on _Zen_ is right on the money; however, I
would also offer a defense of Pirsig. I am one of those that was
sufficiently moved by _Zen_ to investigate Greek philosophy and for
that I am grateful. I guess for that reason alone _Zen_ is one the
more influential books in my life. As Rita Rouvalis suggested, after
Plato _Zen_ is pretty weak; however, coming back to Pirsig after
discovering Plato made rereading _Zen_ a very interesting experience.
As many past threads have suggested Pirsig is quite often wrong about
philosophy, wrong about Zen, and wrong about motorcycles but I also
think this is one piece of writing that was itself inspired. It comes
right out of that tradition of poetic madness so nicely delineated by
Shakespeare in _Midsummer Night's Dream_ _Zen_ has that ring of
experience in it, a fact that makes some of the scenes rather
chilling.
Keith
--
"The corruptions of Whitewater are like Keith Morgan
the fruit of a richly bearing tree, and kamo...@mit.edu
it seems that every day a new dead hand
rises from a misty Arkansas lake." Mark Helprin
lev...@cnsvax.uwec.edu
> Who wrote the above?
>
> Thanks,
> Toby.
>
Robert Pirsig