ring inscription
Ronald P. Blanford
> actually, only the lines
>
> One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them
> One Ring to bring them all, and in darkness bind them
>
> were inscribed on the Ring. At the council of Rivendell, when
> Gandalf quotes the inscription as proof of the ring's
> identity, he says that it is only part of a longer verse, the
> one given in the previous article (Three rings for the Elven
> kings under the sky etc.).
In fact Gandalf was speaking to Frodo in Bag End when he made
the connection between the couplet inscribed on the Ring and the
"Three rings" poem. But his choice of words is curious, seeming
to imply that the couplet was extracted from a poem written
earlier.
Sauron spoke the couplet. But who composed the poem?
If indeed it predated the forging of the One Ring, Sauron must
have been the author and was quoting from it when he completed
the spell. Only Sauron knew of the plan to create the ruling
Ring. Only Sauron knew how the lesser rings would be
distributed. And before the forging, only Sauron knew of his
kingdom in Mordor.
But Sauron's passions were political, not literary. He would
not have rendered his ambitions in verse. Nor would he have
characterized himself as "dark" or his empire as "shadowed"
unless he took particular fancy to possessing an inverted scale
of values.
No, Sauron could not have written the poem. It must have come
later.
I would hazard the author to be an Elf. Dwarves were not
particularly poetic, nor did the forging of the One Ring
discomfit them enough to memorialize the incident. Men would
not have chosen "doomed to die" as their characteristic feature
unless they were feeling particularly morbid. This was
remarkable only to the long-lived Elves, who by the by receive
the most flattering characterization. Too, the Elves had
greatest reason to eulogize the rings and the long war which
resulted from their forging.
Celebrimbor heard the words Sauron spoke upon forging the ring.
It must have pained him, and by extension the Elvish race,
greatly to realize how they had contributed to the growth of
this new evil. It certainly called for a poem, but mercifully a
short one.
So why did Gandalf imply that the words on the Ring were taken
from this poem? Because at the time he was speaking with Frodo,
he did not use the Black Speech but gave only the translation.
If he was in fact referring to the origin of the translation and
not the couplet itself, it was perfectly correct to attribute
the longer poem.
I feel better now. Sometimes you just have to talk these things
out.
Tobey, Roy E.
>Christopher C. Arp writes
>> actually, only the lines
>>
>> One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them
>> One Ring to bring them all, and in darkness bind them
>>
>> were inscribed on the Ring. At the council of Rivendell, when
>> Gandalf quotes the inscription as proof of the ring's
>> identity, he says that it is only part of a longer verse, the
>> one given in the previous article (Three rings for the Elven
>> kings under the sky etc.).
>
>In fact Gandalf was speaking to Frodo in Bag End when he made
>the connection between the couplet inscribed on the Ring and the
>"Three rings" poem. But his choice of words is curious, seeming
>to imply that the couplet was extracted from a poem written
>earlier.
>
>Sauron spoke the couplet. But who composed the poem?
>
I agree with Mr. Blanford on this. Sauron inscribed the words on the ring
to complete the spell which would bring them under his control. Celebrimbor
heard these words, and by them knew he was betrayed. Naturally, an elven poet
composed a lamentable verse about it, and naturally included these "words of
betrayal" in the poem.
As to the discussion about the ringwraiths, and whether they actually possess
the nine rings, I would say yes. Sauron long ago enslaved the ringwraiths with
the power of the One Ring, and the Nazgul exist only through it's power.
I would assume that they and their rings are bound, i.e. when the Lord of the
Nazgul was destroyed at Minas Tirith, his ring probably crumbled or something
as well. The reasoning behind this is if Sauron had the rings himself, and
the Nazgul no longer needed them, he could have mass-produced Nazgul when he
still had the One Ring, nine at a time.
This brings up an interesting point. If someone of great will and power, such
as Saruman, had the One Ring, could he have used it to turn the Nazgul against
Sauron?
Christopher Camfield
been an elf. It was composed in the Black Speech, no? What self
respecting elf would compose in the Black Speech????????
--
Christopher Camfield (ccam...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca)
Well I've been bouncing off the walls
Cause that's all I had to work with at the time (The Jazz Butcher)
Tobey, Roy E.
>I don't think the poet who wrote the "one ring" poem could possibly have
>been an elf. It was composed in the Black Speech, no? What self
>respecting elf would compose in the Black Speech????????
Only the two lines on the ring were Sauron's. Just because they were written
in the Black Speech doesn't preclude an elf from writing a poem using these
words in their translated form.
Mark Stavar
: Christopher C. Arp writes
: > actually, only the lines
: >
: > One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them
: > One Ring to bring them all, and in darkness bind them
: >
: > were inscribed on the Ring. At the council of Rivendell, when
: So why did Gandalf imply that the words on the Ring were taken
: from this poem? Because at the time he was speaking with Frodo,
: he did not use the Black Speech but gave only the translation.
: If he was in fact referring to the origin of the translation and
: not the couplet itself, it was perfectly correct to attribute
: the longer poem.
I would see the poem an incantation rather than a simple recollection.
It would be reasonable to expect that each part would be an empowering
of the respective rings as the were forged. e.g.
Nine rings for mortal men doomed to die
recited as an empowering of the rings for Mortals that would bring them
under Sauon's domination. Celebrimbor would probably not have been aware
of these ( and the Dwarf rings ) as they did not directly effect the Elves.
I could also imaging simplier inscriptions on each of the lesser rings
of power ( though I have never heard of such ).
As to an earlier comment that Sauron's not being _literary_, in the _Silm_
he does in fact enter into a _Battle in Song_ with, I think, Luthien.
So this highlights that Words, Songs ( and Poems ) carried great power for
those that could wiekd them.
: I feel better now. Sometimes you just have to talk these things
: out.
Me too ;-)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Stavar
Mincom Pty Ltd
Juliette St
Brisbane Q Aust
Email: ma...@iris.mincom.oz.au
Ph: +61 7 364 9999
#include <std/disclaimer.h>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl Klutzke
>Christopher C. Arp writes
>> actually, only the lines
>>
>> One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them
>> One Ring to bring them all, and in darkness bind them
>>
>> were inscribed on the Ring. At the council of Rivendell, when
>> Gandalf quotes the inscription as proof of the ring's
>> identity, he says that it is only part of a longer verse, the
>> one given in the previous article (Three rings for the Elven
>> kings under the sky etc.).
>
>In fact Gandalf was speaking to Frodo in Bag End when he made
>the connection between the couplet inscribed on the Ring and the
>"Three rings" poem. But his choice of words is curious, seeming
>to imply that the couplet was extracted from a poem written
>earlier.
As I recall, Gandalf read the inscription in Bag End, and said it from
memory in Rivendell.
>Sauron spoke the couplet. But who composed the poem?
>
>If indeed it predated the forging of the One Ring, Sauron must
>have been the author and was quoting from it when he completed
>the spell. Only Sauron knew of the plan to create the ruling
>Ring. Only Sauron knew how the lesser rings would be
>distributed. And before the forging, only Sauron knew of his
>kingdom in Mordor.
Many in Middle Earth knew of Sauron's kingdom in Mordor. Though he had
not been there since Ar-Pharazon took him away to Numenore, Mordor had
previously been a stronghold from which he had set up kingship over much
of Middle Earth (which was why Ar-Pharazon went after him).
>But Sauron's passions were political, not literary. He would
>not have rendered his ambitions in verse. Nor would he have
>characterized himself as "dark" or his empire as "shadowed"
>unless he took particular fancy to possessing an inverted scale
>of values.
He might indeed have possessed an inverted scale of values. Light,
whether from the stars, Sun, or Moon, was a device of the Valar, and
he certainly would not have had any love for it.
>No, Sauron could not have written the poem. It must have come
>later.
I agree and disagree. The final couplet must have been written before
the rest of the poem, by Sauron himself. The rest must have been
written later, likely by someone else.
The final couplet must have been written before the ruling ring was
made, or it could not have been written on the ring (I doubt Sauron
would have inscribed it later, even if it was possible). So, it had to
have been written by someone who knew of the ruling ring before it was
made. The only candidate is Sauron, whether it seems characteristic of
his passions or not.
As far as the rest of the poem, it must have been written later. [I
don't have it handy, but I just read the pertinent sections of the SIL
over the weekend, so this should be reasonably accurate.] The SIL
states that after the ruling ring was made, Sauron went to collect the
rest of the rings the elves had made. He captured the rings that were
later to become the seven and the nine. (The Elves made all the rings
for themselves, as far as I can tell. It was Sauron's idea to give
them to Dwarves and Men.) The Elves managed to salvage only the Three.
I believe there is even some mention of other rings that were neither
captured or salvaged, but I may be making that up.
In any case, I don't believe Sauron knew how many rings he would find
and capture. He certainly hoped to capture them all, and given the
repeated statements about his hatred of the Elves, I seriously doubt
he planned to return three of the rings to them. Therefore he couldn't
have written the lines about the other rings before he captured them.
I conclude that the rest of the lines were written later, quite possibly
by an Elf or by Sauron himself, and added to the final couplet to make
the complete poem.
Carl Klutzke
mdbs!ca...@dynamo.ecn.purdue.edu
Jan Eric Larsson
Carl Klutzke writes:
>The final couplet must have been written before the rest of the poem,
>by Sauron himself. The rest must have been written later, likely by
>someone else.
I think that the whole verse may be the original spell or formula of
which part was put on the ring at the making. Sauron befriended the
Gwaith-i-mirdain and probably knew all about the other rings, such as
their number and what races they were made for. Then it is only very
natural that he wrote the whole verse and engraved the most important
part of it.
>The Elves made all the rings for themselves, as far as I can tell. It
>was Sauron's idea to give them to Dwarves and Men.
Can you help me to find where this is told?
Jan Eric Larsson Jan...@Control.LTH.Se +46 46 108795
Department of Automatic Control
Lund Institute of Technology "We watched the thermocouples dance to the
Box 118, S-221 00 LUND, Sweden spirited tunes of a high frequency band."
Ancalagon the Black
In article <1993Jun14.1...@mdbs.uucp> ca...@mdbs.uucp (Carl Klutzke) writes:
>>Sauron spoke the couplet. But who composed the poem?
>>
>>If indeed it predated the forging of the One Ring, Sauron must
>>have been the author and was quoting from it when he completed
>>the spell. Only Sauron knew of the plan to create the ruling
>>Ring. Only Sauron knew how the lesser rings would be
>>distributed. And before the forging, only Sauron knew of his
>>kingdom in Mordor.
> Many in Middle Earth knew of Sauron's kingdom in Mordor. Though he had
> not been there since Ar-Pharazon took him away to Numenore, Mordor had
> previously been a stronghold from which he had set up kingship over much
> of Middle Earth (which was why Ar-Pharazon went after him).
Bzzzzt. Thank you for playing.
At the time of the forging, Sauron was not in Numenor.
The Ring was forged over a thousand years before Ar-Pharazon took him away
to Numenor. Your timeline is quite confused.
> rest of the rings the elves had made. He captured the rings that were
> later to become the seven and the nine. (The Elves made all the rings
> for themselves, as far as I can tell. It was Sauron's idea to give
> them to Dwarves and Men.) The Elves managed to salvage only the Three.
> I believe there is even some mention of other rings that were neither
> captured or salvaged, but I may be making that up.
But there was a story among the Dwarves of Khazad-dum that Durin received
his ring directly from Celebrimbor, and that it never went through Sauron's
hand (until he took it later in Dol Guldur from ... ah... whatizname. Thror?).
It's not clear if this story was true, however.
--
Ancalagon the Black
Mocker of Misspellers
Incinerator of Illiterates
Roaster of the Repetitively Wrong
And Not a Relation of Eagles
Stan Brown
Sauron was a sorceror (among other things), and he would have composed
his own spells. When Celebrimbor heard Sauron utter the Ring rhyme "and
knew that he had been betrayed", it was not that he recognized the words
but that their purpose and meaning was obvious upon first hearing.
And there is no reason to think that the Ring inscription would have
been composed at any time different from the rest of the Ring spell.
But there's only so myuch room inside a ring, even a magical one, for an
inscription. Since there was not room for the full spell, only the key
words would have been inscribed. (And I don't picture Sauron taking the
ring to a jeweler's to have it inscribed! Rather I imagine that the
words appeared on the Ring as Sauron spoke them.)
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems br...@Ncoast.ORG
Can't find FAQ lists? ftp to 'rtfm.mit.edu' and look in /pub/usenet
(or email me >>> with valid reply-to address <<< for instructions).
Tobey, Roy E.
>
>Carl Klutzke writes:
>
>>The final couplet must have been written before the rest of the poem,
>>by Sauron himself. The rest must have been written later, likely by
>>someone else.
>
>I think that the whole verse may be the original spell or formula of
>which part was put on the ring at the making. Sauron befriended the
>Gwaith-i-mirdain and probably knew all about the other rings, such as
>their number and what races they were made for. Then it is only very
>natural that he wrote the whole verse and engraved the most important
>part of it.
>
>>The Elves made all the rings for themselves, as far as I can tell. It
>>was Sauron's idea to give them to Dwarves and Men.
"...and [Sauron] came against [the Elves] in open war, demanding that all the
rings be delivered to him... But the Elves fled from him, and three of their
rings they saved, and bore them away, and hid them"
Silmarillion, pg 357, Ballantine Ed.
Sauron had no intention of letting the elves keep the rings, if he could not
control them. His original plan was to dominate the Elves by the use of the
rings, and had no idea how many the elves would have saved.
(futher down the same page)
"But Sauron gathered into his hands all the remaining Rings of Power; and he
dealt them out to the other peoples of Middle-earth,... Seven he gave to the
Dwarves; but to Men he gave nine, for men proved in this matter as well as in
others the readiest to his will."
Sauron probably had no idea the number of rings that were remaining, and so it
seems unlikely he could have written the poem. While it is not anywhere in
print, I am sure if you had asked the late Mr.Tolkien, he would not only have
told you that it was written by the elves, but also Who wrote it, at what time
and place he wrote it, his relationship with Celebrimbor, and given you the
original Elven translation, in both Quenya and Sindarian. :)
(In fact, once when Mr.Tolkien was asked for the elven word for "bull", he
made it up on the spot, and included the history on the word and how it got
to it's current form.)
Gregory M. Harry
writes:
> Ronald P. Blanford (blan...@spf.trw.com) wrote:
>
> As to an earlier comment that Sauron's not being _literary_, in the
> _Silm_ he does in fact enter into a _Battle in Song_ with, I think,
> Luthien.
>
No, it was Finrod Felagund, King of Nargothrond.
---
************************************************************
A Handy Pocket Dictionary from MIT to Caltech Student Slang
Hack - RF
Punt - Flick
Tool - Troll
Gregg Harry gha...@wam.umd.edu Gore/Moynihan in 2000
************************************************************
Ron Mayer
st...@rosie.uh.edu (Tobey, Roy E.) <13JUN199...@rosie.uh.edu> writes:
>
>This brings up an interesting point. If someone of great will and power, such
>as Saruman, had the One Ring, could he have used it to turn the Nazgul against
>Sauron?
IMHO: Sure, Even Frodo (great will, little power?) is suspected of
controling Gollum with the One. What saved Frodo is that he didn't
desire such power.
Ron Mayer
ma...@orthanc.acuson.com
ObDigression: Did Frodo really want Galadriel to take the ring or was
he just testing her?
David Faulkner
>With respect to all the other posters, I think you're missing the point.
Sorry, I think you are.
>Sauron was a sorceror (among other things), and he would have composed
>his own spells. When Celebrimbor heard Sauron utter the Ring rhyme "and
>knew that he had been betrayed", it was not that he recognized the words
>but that their purpose and meaning was obvious upon first hearing.
Are you referring to the full rhyme? If not, then I have misunderstood
you.
There is no reference anywhere to Celebrimbor having heard the full
rhyme, only the actual ring inscription. So why would you think
otherwise? Hearing that was more than sufficient for Celebrimbor to
understand Sauron's purpose.
>And there is no reason to think that the Ring inscription would have
>been composed at any time different from the rest of the Ring spell.
Of course there is! As has already been stated, at the time of the
Ring's creation, Sauron possessed NONE of the Great Rings other than the
One. So how could he possibly know how many he would capture in the
ensuing war, in which Hollin was laid waste, or how they would
subsequently be distributed. It is quite obvious that the rhyme must have
been written after the war, and after the distribution of the rings
captured by Sauron. The words of the inscription would have been well
known to the Elves after Celebrimbor heard them spoken, and it would have
been quite simple for some Elvish minstrel, or whatever, to later
compose the rhyme based on those words.
>But there's only so myuch room inside a ring, even a magical one, for an
>inscription. Since there was not room for the full spell, only the key
>words would have been inscribed.
Again, why do you think the rest of the verse is actually part of the
spell? "And one for the Dark Lord, on his dark throne": this sounds a
pretty unlikely self-reference for Sauron to make in a spell. Did he
call himself the "Dark Lord"? I don't think so.
>(And I don't picture Sauron taking the ring to a jeweler's to have it
>inscribed! Rather I imagine that the words appeared on the Ring as
>Sauron spoke them.)
I like this idea :-).
-dif-
--
Dave Faulkner, Research Engineer (d...@bhprtc.scpd.oz.au)
BHP Coated Products Division, Research and Technology Centre
Port Kembla, New South Wales, Australia.
David Faulkner
>With respect to all the other posters, I think you're missing the point.
Sorry, I think you are.
>Sauron was a sorceror (among other things), and he would have composed
>his own spells. When Celebrimbor heard Sauron utter the Ring rhyme "and
>knew that he had been betrayed", it was not that he recognized the words
>but that their purpose and meaning was obvious upon first hearing.
Are you referring to the full rhyme? If not, then I have misunderstood
you.
There is no reference anywhere to Celebrimbor having heard the full
rhyme, only the actual ring inscription. So why would you think
otherwise? Hearing that was more than sufficient for Celebrimbor to
understand Sauron's purpose.
>And there is no reason to think that the Ring inscription would have
>been composed at any time different from the rest of the Ring spell.
Of course there is! As has already been stated, at the time of the
Ring's creation, Sauron possessed NONE of the Great Rings other than the
One. So how could he possibly know how many he would capture in the
ensuing war, in which Hollin was laid waste, or how they would
subsequently be distributed. It is quite obvious that the rhyme must have
been written after the war, and after the distribution of the rings
captured by Sauron. The words of the inscription would have been well
known to the Elves after Celebrimbor heard them spoken, and it would have
been quite simple for some Elvish minstrel, or whatever, to later
compose the rhyme based on those words.
>But there's only so myuch room inside a ring, even a magical one, for an
>inscription. Since there was not room for the full spell, only the key
>words would have been inscribed.
Again, why do you think the rest of the verse is actually part of the
spell? "And one for the Dark Lord, on his dark throne": this sounds a
pretty unlikely self-reference for Sauron to make in a spell. Did he
call himself the "Dark Lord"? I don't think so.
>(And I don't picture Sauron taking the ring to a jeweler's to have it
>inscribed! Rather I imagine that the words appeared on the Ring as
>Sauron spoke them.)
I like this idea :-).
Andrew Solovay
>
>Again, why do you think the rest of the verse is actually part of the
>spell? "And one for the Dark Lord, on his dark throne": this sounds a
>pretty unlikely self-reference for Sauron to make in a spell. Did he
>call himself the "Dark Lord"? I don't think so.
Perhaps he did. The Mouth of Sauron refers to his master as "Sauron
the Great." This has always struck me as odd, since "Sauron", like
"Morgoth", is the name the Elves gave their enemy; it is Quenya, I
believe, and means "The Abhorred".
The Mouth of Sauron doesn't do this just once; he consistently refers
to his master as "Sauron". And the Text says that he called *himself*
"The Mouth of Sauron". All this seems to indicate that Sauron had
adopted that name for himself, perhaps to mock his enemies. Given
that, it's not unreasonable that he would call himself "The Dark
Lord".
That notwithstanding, I also believe that Sauron composed only the two
lines of the varse, and composed them in the Black Speech; and the
Elves later incorporated those lines into the full verse.
--
Andrew Solovay
"But that was in another country;
and besides, the wench is dead." ---Marlowe
DONALD L. HARDY
>rhyme, only the actual ring inscription.
I think the reference was that he heard "these words" and never anything
about "only these words." I don't think it ever says precisely what he heard.
>>And there is no reason to think that the Ring inscription would have
>>been composed at any time different from the rest of the Ring spell.
>
>Of course there is! As has already been stated, at the time of the
>Ring's creation, Sauron possessed NONE of the Great Rings other than the
>One. So how could he possibly know how many he would capture in the
>ensuing war, in which Hollin was laid waste, or how they would
>subsequently be distributed. It is quite obvious that the rhyme must have
>been written after the war, and after the distribution of the rings
>captured by Sauron. The words of the inscription would have been well
>known to the Elves after Celebrimbor heard them spoken, and it would have
>been quite simple for some Elvish minstrel, or whatever, to later
>compose the rhyme based on those words.
Hmmmm. My understanding was that Sauron had helped in the forging of all of
the rings except the Three. So he would have known how many there were, and
would have known his plans for them. He also gave them to the Dwarves. His
Messenger stated he did at the gates to the Lonely Mountain (Rings he will
give, as of old, or some such quote), and the reference to Thror's ring never
having been touched by Sauron, while the others (by inference) were.
>Again, why do you think the rest of the verse is actually part of the
>spell? "And one for the Dark Lord, on his dark throne": this sounds a
>pretty unlikely self-reference for Sauron to make in a spell. Did he
>call himself the "Dark Lord"? I don't think so.
I always thought that the entire poem was the incantation or spell that
Sauron used to complete the forging of the One Ring and bind all the others
to it. Is it not possible that the whole thing was spoken in the Black
Tongue (not just the final couplet) and that the reference to Sauron as the
Dark Lord and "in the land of Mordor where the shadows lie" was a result of
the an elvish translation of the original speech?
>>Rather I imagine that the words appeared on the Ring as Sauron spoke them.)
>I like this idea :-).
Me too.
THIS IS GREAT!! this is the first time I have signed on. :)
D.
--
******************************************************************************
Donald L. Hardy Office of Physical Planning
Project Planner Lehigh University
dh...@lehigh.edu (215) 758 5110
Mark Notess
> ObDigression: Did Frodo really want Galadriel to take the ring or was
> he just testing her?
Probably a little of both. I think he would have found it almost impossible
to really give it to her, but another part of him would have been glad to
get rid of the burden of it. I read his offer as half playful (rare for
solemn Frodo) and half serious.
Mark (How many of us know what we "really want"?)
Digression digression: Why are Frodo and Aragorn so morose most of the time?
Could it have to do with losing one's parents at an early age? Tolkien
himself struggled with depression. He barely knew his father, and lost
his mother when he was (I think) in his teens. Or maybe the grim-ness
of heroes comes from the Norse stories. In the comparatively lighthearted
"Hobbit", Bard the Gloomy is almost a dead ringer for Aragorn. Gandalf,
Faramir, and Theoden don't seem nearly so depressed. And having most of
the story written from the points of view of Sam, Gimli, Merry, and Pippin
keeps it from being too oppressive. Compared to Aragorn and Frodo,
Gollum is cheerful!
Ancalagon the Black
> Again, why do you think the rest of the verse is actually part of the
> spell? "And one for the Dark Lord, on his dark throne": this sounds a
> pretty unlikely self-reference for Sauron to make in a spell. Did he
> call himself the "Dark Lord"? I don't think so.
Why not? We hear Orcs refer to "Lugburz", and that pretty clearly means
"Dark Tower" (Barad-dur) in Black Speech.
If the center of his power is commonly known as the Dark Tower in a language
of his own invention by his own people, why shouldn't we believe he calls
himself, "the Dark Lord?"
It sounds perfectly consistent to me.
Carl Klutzke
>> Many in Middle Earth knew of Sauron's kingdom in Mordor. Though he had
>> not been there since Ar-Pharazon took him away to Numenore, Mordor had
>> previously been a stronghold from which he had set up kingship over much
>> of Middle Earth (which was why Ar-Pharazon went after him).
Ancalagon replied:
>The Ring was forged over a thousand years before Ar-Pharazon took him away
>to Numenor. Your timeline is quite confused.
Oops. You're quite correct. I guess I'm crunchy and good with ketchup.
>> rest of the rings the elves had made. He captured the rings that were
>> later to become the seven and the nine. (The Elves made all the rings
>> for themselves, as far as I can tell. It was Sauron's idea to give
>> them to Dwarves and Men.) The Elves managed to salvage only the Three.
>> I believe there is even some mention of other rings that were neither
>> captured or salvaged, but I may be making that up.
>
>But there was a story among the Dwarves of Khazad-dum that Durin received
>his ring directly from Celebrimbor, and that it never went through Sauron's
>hand (until he took it later in Dol Guldur from ... ah... whatizname. Thror?).
>
>It's not clear if this story was true, however.
I don't remember that story; but then, my memory obviously isn't
reliable. I wish I had the SIL here to quote from about the making of
the rings, though it may not support me one way or another. All I
remember is the _impression_ that the elves were making the rings for
themselves. Given their friendship with the dwarves in that region, it
seems reasonable that they gave one to Durin, but why would they make
15 other rings for dwarves and for men, and only make three for themselves?
As for the Nazgul wearing their rings, can anyone quote from Frodo's
battle on Weathertop? As I recall he was able to see them more clearly
with the ring on; wouldn't he have seen their rings if they had been
wearing them?
Carl Klutzke
mdbs!ca...@dynamo.ecn.purdue.edu
Tobey, Roy E.
>
>print, I am sure if you had asked the late Mr.Tolkien, he would not only have
I am a moron. I should have known better than to use Mr. Tolkien, and I
am deeply sorry. Professor Tolkien is his proper title, and thoughtless me,
who didn't want to just say "Tolkien", as that is not only disrespectful but
also ambiguous, used Mr. instead of the more proper Prof. I humbly apologize.
(I kicked myself in the head when it was pointed out to me what I had done, for
I truly respect Prof. Tolkien as one of the greatest storytellers of our, or
any other, time.)
Super User
>Why not? We hear Orcs refer to "Lugburz", and that pretty clearly means
>"Dark Tower" (Barad-dur) in Black Speech.
Does it? News to me. I can see your line of thinking though and I don't
deny that it's a good conclusion.
>If the center of his power is commonly known as the Dark Tower in a language
>of his own invention by his own people, why shouldn't we believe he calls
>himself, "the Dark Lord?"
Sauron didn't invent any language other than the Black Speech! Very few
of Sauron's servants in the Third Age knew how to speak it. Most of them
used debased Westron.
The other thing to remember is that Sauron forbade any of his servants
from speaking his name. I doubt that he would have his servants call him
"The Dark Lord". Even if they did call him that, you can't draw a conclusion
about what he called himself!
>It sounds perfectly consistent to me.
not to me.
c.
Ancalagon the Black
>>If the center of his power is commonly known as the Dark Tower in a language
>>of his own invention by his own people, why shouldn't we believe he calls
>>himself, "the Dark Lord?"
> Sauron didn't invent any language other than the Black Speech! Very few
> of Sauron's servants in the Third Age knew how to speak it. Most of them
> used debased Westron.
You're not suggesting "Lugburz" is debased Westron, are you? I was saying
it was Black Speech. I stated that explicitly.
I do not understand your point.
Are you saying that the Orcs did not use any words of Black Speech? What
language do you suppose "Nazgul" is a word in? Orcs refer to the Nazgul,
too, once on the same page as they refer to Lugburz. (ROTK, p. 182,
Houghton-Miflin).
Even orcs that spoke debased Westron used a few words of the Black Speech.
> The other thing to remember is that Sauron forbade any of his servants
> from speaking his name. I doubt that he would have his servants call him
> "The Dark Lord". Even if they did call him that, you can't draw a conclusion
> about what he called himself!
I was not drawing any conclusion about what he called himself. I was merely
saying that it was plausible and consistent for him to call himself, "the
Dark Lord". I made no comments about what his servants called him, either.
The point is, Darkness is in the very name of his stronghold, in a language
of his own invention, and is bound up in the nature of his powers. Do you
have some reason to believe he wouldn't call himself, "the Dark Lord"? You
have not presented one yet.
>>It sounds perfectly consistent to me.
> not to me.
Then what, precisely, do you find it inconsistent with?
Consider the Ring inscription itself, as engraved on the Ring:
"agh burzum-ishi krimpatul" -- and in the Darkness bind them.
I repeat, why shouldn't he call himself the Dark Lord? Darkness is
literally written on his Ring, the focus of his power!
Carl Klutzke
>
>Hmmmm. My understanding was that Sauron had helped in the forging of all of
>the rings except the Three. So he would have known how many there were, and
>would have known his plans for them. He also gave them to the Dwarves. His
>Messenger stated he did at the gates to the Lonely Mountain (Rings he will
>give, as of old, or some such quote), and the reference to Thror's ring never
>having been touched by Sauron, while the others (by inference) were.
My original thought was that Sauron did not know how many rings he
would capture, and therefore did not know how many he would give away,
and therefore could not have written the whole poem, at least not
before the One was completed. (I posted to this effect earlier.)
However, in "History of Galadriel and Celeborn" in _Unfinished Tales_,
it tells of the pillaging of Eregion as follows:
"There Sauron took the Nine Rings and other lesser works of the
Mirdain [the brotherhood of smiths in Eregion]; but the Seven and the
Three he could not find. The Celebrimbor was put to torement, and
Sauron learned from him where the Seven were bestowed. This
Celebrimbor revealed, because neither the Seven nor the Nine did he
value as he valued the Three; the Seven and the Nine were made with
Sauron's aid, whereas the Three were made by Celebrimbor alone, with a
different power and purpose."
So Sauron did know of the Seven and Three, and as he had great
influence over the Mirdain in his guise as Annatar (stated earlier in
the chapter), he may indeed have had them made specifically for Dwarves
and Men. This being the case, Sauron may indeed have composed the
entire poem himself, before even the One was made.
Carl Klutzke
mdbs!ca...@dynamo.ecn.purdue.edu
Klaus Ole Kristiansen
>In article <16JUN199...@rosie.uh.edu>, st...@rosie.uh.edu (Tobey, Roy E.) writes...
>>
>>print, I am sure if you had asked the late Mr.Tolkien, he would not only have
> ^^^^^^^^^^
>I am a moron. I should have known better than to use Mr. Tolkien, and I
>am deeply sorry. Professor Tolkien is his proper title, and thoughtless me,
>who didn't want to just say "Tolkien", as that is not only disrespectful but
>also ambiguous, used Mr. instead of the more proper Prof. I humbly apologize.
Tolkien writes in one of his letters (from memory): There is no need to
add mister to professor. At Oxford, professor is not a title of address,
or at least it didn't use to be.
I don't think Mr. Tolkien would have been insulted by beeing addressed as
mister.
Klaus O K
Flossy the Camel
>st...@jane.uh.edu (Tobey, Roy E.) writes:
>
>>In article <16JUN199...@rosie.uh.edu>, st...@rosie.uh.edu (Tobey, Roy E.) writes...
>>>
>>>print, I am sure if you had asked the late Mr.Tolkien, he would not only have
>> ^^^^^^^^^^
>
>>I am a moron. I should have known better than to use Mr. Tolkien, and I
>>am deeply sorry. Professor Tolkien is his proper title, and thoughtless me,
>>who didn't want to just say "Tolkien", as that is not only disrespectful but
>>also ambiguous, used Mr. instead of the more proper Prof. I humbly apologize.
>
>Tolkien writes in one of his letters (from memory): There is no need to
>add mister to professor. At Oxford, professor is not a title of address,
>or at least it didn't use to be.
>
rather than a mode of address. There are also a lot fewer of them
about. For example, in the undergrad Medical dept., there are 3
professors, but lots of Dr. Mr, Ms... The Profs here prefer to be
called Dr. Soandso, because it is an earned qualification, c/w an
honourary title. I suppose it's snobbery, that's all.
Andy Linkin - Oxford Ugrad ;-)
Ron Mayer
m...@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Mark Notess) <1354...@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM> writes:
>
>Digression digression: Why are Frodo and Aragorn so morose most of the time?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
And Denethor, and Bilbo,
and later Sam, Elrond, Saruman, Arwen, etc.
It's almost as if Tolkien was saying something about experience being
linked to gloomyness. All of the most experienced, powerful, mature,
men (and halflings) seem to suffer in this way. On the contrary
naivity seems to be associated with cheerfulness, as evidenced by the
Hobbits in the shire (even Frodo, when he lived there).
It first glance, it seems that the Elves contradict this rule. But
only in the lands under the influence of their Rings. As a previous
poster suggested, perhaps this emotional effect _is_ the magic of The
Three.
Frodo's progression is the most obvious. From his blissful innocense
in the beginning of the LOTR, Frodo "grew" as Saruman (ironically,
IMHO) refers to it, to developing the morose attitude Mark mentioned,
and eventually to feelings of emptyness and longing at the end in
which he can find no more happyness in all of middle earth. While
Frodo's development can, obviously, be blamed on the ring, I think
Tolkien intended a deeper meaning than this.
I think one of the major themes of the LOTR is how life's experinces
can create such feelings (perhaps best expressed as a combination
of loss, sadness, depression, longing, emptyness) in people.
Specific events affect a number of Tolkien's characters in this way:
the See for Legolas, loosing his daughter for Elrond, Frodo leaving
for Sam, the Age passing for the Elves, Sauron's defeat for Gandalf,
and most especially Aragorn's death for Arwen (Anyone else nominate
this for the saddest passage in literature?).
You ask: "Why are Frodo and Aragorn so morose most of the time?"
Well, face it, it's a rather sad story. A main plot line for every
character except Aragorn is about loosing something that they can
never go back to.
Much of the LOTR deals with how characters deal with feelings of loss.
The elves, Gandalf, and eventually Frodo, respond to this feeling by
leaving middle earth. Denethor, and in a way Aragorn, responded by
killing themselves. Saruman desparately tried to stop the passing of
the Age and destroyed himself. Gollum pursued his Precious to the end.
> Could it have to do with losing one's parents at an early age?
> Tolkien himself struggled with depression. He barely knew his
> father, and lost his mother when he was (I think) in his teens.
That sounds like quite a possibility. The entire bit about the Gift
of Mandos(sp?) is most definitely related to this issue. I forgot the
reason the Elves refered to it as a gift, but somehow I'm certain it's
relavant here. Somehow I think I'm missing the entire point by
forgetting how this relates. Aaarg -- time to read them again.
> Or maybe the grim-ness of heroes comes from the Norse stories.
I think there's more to it than that.
> In the comparatively lighthearted "Hobbit", Bard the Gloomy is almost a
> dead ringer for Aragorn. Gandalf, Faramir, and Theoden don't seem
> nearly so depressed. And having most of the story written from
> the points of view of Sam, Gimli, Merry, and Pippin keeps it from
> being too oppressive. Compared to Aragorn and Frodo, Gollum is cheerful!
Gandalf's life sure seems empty after Sauron's defeat. Wasn't Theoden's
case of depression the most severe case in the book, and in overcoming it
he died. When Frodo leaves, Sam Merry and Pippin are about as morose
as you can get. Gollum?!? "Lost lost! We're lost. And when Precious
goes we'll die, yes, die into the dust." Cheerful?!? Yeah, right.
>In rec.arts.books.tolkien, ma...@sono.uucp (Ron Mayer) writes:
>
>> ObDigression: Did Frodo really want Galadriel to take the ring or was
>> he just testing her?
>
>Probably a little of both. I think he would have found it almost impossible
>to really give it to her, but another part of him would have been glad to
>get rid of the burden of it. I read his offer as half playful (rare for
>solemn Frodo) and half serious.
To add to that, I wonder if another part of him actually wanted her to
rule with the Ring, like Sam apparently wanted her to. I doubt it
would have been impossible to give it to her; he had it for a much
shorter time than Bilbo, and it seems that the entire atmosphere of
Rivendel weakened the power of Sauron. If she had said yes (no,
that's not what I meant;-)); I wonder what Frodo would have done.
Ron Mayer
ma...@orthanc.acuson.com
Szymon Sokol
: I think one of the major themes of the LOTR is how life's experinces
: of loss, sadness, depression, longing, emptyness) in people.
The song of Galadriel (the one sang in Lorien at the departure of the Fellowship)
is a perfect example of those feelings. We know that Galadriel missed
the Undying Lands - and all the persons who seem to develop such feelings
(Elrond, Frodo, Legolas etc.) are also bound to Valinor...
: > Could it have to do with losing one's parents at an early age?
: > Tolkien himself struggled with depression. He barely knew his
: > father, and lost his mother when he was (I think) in his teens.
: That sounds like quite a possibility. The entire bit about the Gift
: of Mandos(sp?) is most definitely related to this issue. I forgot the
: reason the Elves refered to it as a gift, but somehow I'm certain it's
: relavant here. Somehow I think I'm missing the entire point by
: forgetting how this relates. Aaarg -- time to read them again.
It is because Elves felt tired after few thousands years of life (probably
you would feel like that too :-) ).
--
U U M M M M Szymon Sokol -- Network Manager
U U MM MM MM MM University of Mining and Metallurgy, Computer Center
U U M M M M M M M M ave. Mickiewicza 30, 30-059 Krakow, POLAND
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Mark Notess
I enjoyed reading your thoughtful response. I think I see things
a little different though.
I don't equate the sadness that accompanies loss (e.g., Sam's sadness
at Frodo's departure) with moroseness. And while Frodo and Aragorn
are characterized by moroseness, other characters such as Sam are
merely temporarily sad. I agree that, as a rule, the experiences
of M-E lend gravity, but I don't think they need to have the effects
we see in Aragorn and Frodo.
Hence,
> >Digression digression: Why are Frodo and Aragorn so morose most of the time?
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> And Denethor, and Bilbo,
> and later Sam, Elrond, Saruman, Arwen, etc.
I see Denethor and Saruman and "evil brooders" but not as morose. They
were too proud to be morose. Bilbo, though he gets quite weary, never
strikes me as morose. Quite the opposite--he's one of the most light-
hearted hobbits we meet. Elrond and Arwen aren't developed enough as
characters for me to comment on.
> It's almost as if Tolkien was saying something about experience being
> linked to gloomyness. All of the most experienced, powerful, mature,
> men (and halflings) seem to suffer in this way. On the contrary
> naivity seems to be associated with cheerfulness, as evidenced by the
> Hobbits in the shire (even Frodo, when he lived there).
I think I agree, although I might not use the word "gloomy". Serious,
yes, but not gloomy.
> It first glance, it seems that the Elves contradict this rule. But
> only in the lands under the influence of their Rings. As a previous
> poster suggested, perhaps this emotional effect _is_ the magic of The
> Three.
I don't know. For me, the "long sorrow of the elves" doesn't predominate
in LOTR. If you read LOTR with the Sil. in mind, then it is more evident.
> I think one of the major themes of the LOTR is how life's experinces
> can create such feelings (perhaps best expressed as a combination
> of loss, sadness, depression, longing, emptyness) in people.
I like the word "loss" best.
> Gandalf's life sure seems empty after Sauron's defeat. Wasn't Theoden's
> case of depression the most severe case in the book, and in overcoming it
> he died. When Frodo leaves, Sam Merry and Pippin are about as morose
> as you can get. Gollum?!? "Lost lost! We're lost. And when Precious
> goes we'll die, yes, die into the dust." Cheerful?!? Yeah, right.
I think of the overall impression I get from the entire portrait of the
character, not single events. I think Gandalf is light as a feather
after Sauron's defeat. He is a thin skin containing pure joy. I think
of Theoden in his recovery, not in his wormtongue-years. I can't think
of Merry and Pippin as anything but cheerful and glad (a deeper gladness
for their experiences and their ent-draughts). Gollum--moroseness isn't
the same as fear or even despair. Maybe what I'm seeing is his (ruined)
capacity for cheerfulness. Frodo seems to have lost his.
I admit that my comments reflect my feelings about the characters; I suspect
that we feel different about the characters based on our own experiences
in life. Whoever it was who posted about Gandalf the White being
distasteful and arrogant certainly has a different reaction to him than
I do (and did as a child). As we talk about books, we often learn more
about each other (and ourselves) than we do about the books themselves.
Mark (philosophical today...)
Stephen Dale
things that hve gone before...
In dealing with the "moroseness" in the characters in the Lord of the Rings,
I think that the central idea is that there is an inherant sadness in the
lives of the people of Middle Earth, who do not live within sight of the
dwellings of the Valar and the Uttermost West. The sadness does not often
affect the M-E dwellers (after all, they are, by and large, a simple folk
(remembering that simplicity does not indicate innate GOODNESS, just pure
simplicity, as in the case of the evil Bree-man who sold the halflings
the pony (whose name escapes me), and in the case of the majority of the
Shirefolk, who never leave their little borders)), except when they acquire
an inordinant amount of Wisdom. With Wisdom, comes sadness for the world
that they will never see, or that they will never share with loved ones.
There are several examples to illustrate this. Gandalf himself I would
not describe as morose. Quick-temperes, curt, but not morose. He himself
has seen the land of the Valar, as one fo the Maiar (sp?), and knows what
awaits him upon his return from faithful service to the people of M-E.
Theoden King? Not morose, but depressed. He is elevated from his depression
by the realization of the strength within hs body. When Gandalf casts
Grima down, all of his illusions are shorn, and Theoden is no longer under
the spell of his tongue. At Gandalf's command, he rises and feels once more
the strength within his body. But the Eorlingas are a race of physical
people, Vikings, if you will. They are more conerened with feasts and
fightings, and more than once I have heard their entire race refered to as
"Beowulfian". As one whose thoughts are only for glory in combat, Theoden
is too shallow as a character to feel the depressions of the Wise.
Denethor? No, he is merely mad. He believes that, were times better, Gondor
could rival Numenor. He looks not back, but forward to a time which will
never be, holding the scepter for a king to whom he has no intentions
of surrendering it, even if a claim be proven true.
Faramir, on the other hand, has more truely the blood of the Numenoreans.
He longs for the West that is Forgotten, and finds consolation not in
fighting, not in seeking to rival that which cannot be rivaled, but in
beauty and nature. He knows he will never cross the seas, and he must
therefore content himself with M-E.
Aragorn shares his knowledge, but he also has the nkowledge of a new Age,
which he will found and his descendants will prolong. The Fourth Age is
the time of Men, and Aragorn is the Greatest of a race which will come.
His yearning for Numenor finds its solace in the knowledge that, as the
Wisest of Men, he knows that he was not Meant to find the Uttermost West,
and that the most beautiful of the Elves will, for love of him, share his
fate. He has accepted his destiny.
Frodo is the primary "morose" character in TLOR. He knows, upon leaving
the Shire, that he will never be welcome there again, even if he returns.
His fundemental spirit recognizes that he must lose the Shire, so that
others may keep it. He is among the Wisest characters in the book, and
he is the classic example of the tragic hero, for, while the other characters
achieve their goals, for Frodo even the consolation of Paradise in the
Uttermost West is cold comfort. He desires no greater life than that of
a Shire Hobbit, and no greater company than that of his fellow halflings.
In the West, he will be a small hobbit among the Great Heros and Elf-Friends,
among the shapers of the world, and he will, even after his great deeds,
be as the least of them. His life is changed, in his eyes, for the worst,
and the only reason for this is that he sought to save the world.
Hamlet step aside for Frodo son of Drogo!
There are others I could discuss, but my primary point is that Tolkien
seemed to be making the point that there are a lot of not-so-nice things
in life, and the TRUE sadness of the world comes with Wisdom, with
understanding what is wrong, and, at the same time, that you are powerless
to correct it.
Kinda depressing, no?
Ride for the Sun...
Stephen A. Dale
pe...@marble.bu.edu
Bill Seurer
|> ...He is among the Wisest characters in the book, and
|> achieve their goals, for Frodo even the consolation of Paradise in the
|> Uttermost West is cold comfort. He desires no greater life than that of
|> a Shire Hobbit, and no greater company than that of his fellow halflings.
|> In the West, he will be a small hobbit among the Great Heros and Elf-Friends,
|> among the shapers of the world, and he will, even after his great deeds,
|> be as the least of them. His life is changed, in his eyes, for the worst,
|> and the only reason for this is that he sought to save the world.
I agree with the rest of your post but disagree here. I think Frodo would
be honored as one of the greatest heros ever. Gandalf and Galadriel
obviously thought he was and they had met many of the other "greatest"
heros.
--
- Bill Seurer Language and Compiler Development IBM Rochester, MN
Internet: BillS...@vnet.ibm.com America On-Line: BillS...@aol.com
Mike - Grobelch
>This is my first post to this newsgroup, so please forgive me if I restate
>things that hve gone before...
>
>In dealing with the "moroseness" in the characters in the Lord of the Rings,
>I think that the central idea is that there is an inherant sadness in the
>lives of the people of Middle Earth, who do not live within sight of the
>dwellings of the Valar and the Uttermost West. The sadness does not often
>affect the M-E dwellers (after all, they are, by and large, a simple folk
>(remembering that simplicity does not indicate innate GOODNESS, just pure
>simplicity, as in the case of the evil Bree-man who sold the halflings
>the pony (whose name escapes me), and in the case of the majority of the
>Shirefolk, who never leave their little borders)), except when they acquire
>an inordinant amount of Wisdom. With Wisdom, comes sadness for the world
but not quite on. I think Tolkien does imbue a morose sense of the decay of the
world in LOTR and it's precursors. This is present in various mythologies,
with descriptions of the fall from some Golden Age. The thread that older/
earlier is better runs through many of the stories. The newly created x soon
reached a peak which will never be seen again. The armies were bigger, the
people were more beautiful/smarter/stronger, nobody will ever make something
as good, etc. I don't think this has so much to do with the Valar, as a
precipitous entropy at work. For example, the Numenoreans (never saw the
Valar's home) were an apex of Men, which subsequently declined. Per Aragorn,
"I am a lesser son of great forebears" (not verbatim).
Mike
Joseph Dzikiewicz
>
>I agree with the rest of your post but disagree here. I think Frodo would
>be honored as one of the greatest heros ever. Gandalf and Galadriel
>obviously thought he was and they had met many of the other "greatest"
>heros.
Elrond as well, who at the Council said that Frodo would be A-number-1
hero if he took the ring. (Or words to that effect, anyway.)