Was Galadriel banned from Valinor?
Max Moroz
will diminish, and go into the West and remain Galadriel."
But I thought she was banned from Undying Lands, and the ban was only
lifted as a reward for her refusal of the Ring. I read something like
this in this newsgroup, but I cannot find any reference to that in the
books (except for one passage in the Silm that refers only to Fëanor
being exiled).
Could someone clarify this?
Max
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Michael O'Neill
>
> Galadriel tells Frodo who offered her the Ring: "I pass the test. I
> will diminish, and go into the West and remain Galadriel."
>
> But I thought she was banned from Undying Lands, and the ban was only
> lifted as a reward for her refusal of the Ring. I read something like
> this in this newsgroup, but I cannot find any reference to that in the
> books (except for one passage in the Silm that refers only to Fëanor
> being exiled).
>
> Could someone clarify this?
I'm not seeing your point exactly, but the history of it goes something
like this,-
Galadriel was born to the light of Valinor, before the rising of the
Moon or Sun [in that order], as was Féanor, while the two trees were in
bloom. Galadriel and Féanor, were the two greatest Eldar, the equal if
unlike in endowments.
In terms of physical endowments, Féanor took on and battled not one, but
several Balrogs with whips of fire alone before he died of his wounds.
Féanor loved the works of his hands. He was very gifted, but proud.
Galadriel nurtured wisdom and mastered magic to considerable effect. She
it was who laid bare the pits of Dol Guldur in Mirkwood.
Galadriel is also said to have been a match for both the loremasters and
the athletes of the Eldar in the days of their youth, so if you're
reading the LotR and getting depressed that you only have some sort of
latter day Laiquendi or Green-Elves to enjoy, think again.
Okay, that's the background. Galadriel was a Noldor and when Melkor
stole the Silmarils and killed Féanors father, she set off after him
with the rest of the Noldor. Féanor and his Sons had sworn a terrible
oath to retrieve the Silmarils against all possessors of them and were
ahead of the other Noldor and came upon Aqualonde the home of the
Teleri.
They would not lend their ships to Féanors folk, who took them by force,
in a terrible battle referred to as the Kinslaying. Galadriel was
related to the Teleri and coming late to the battle fought fiercely in
defence of her mother's kin against Féanor, who taking the ships put off
and left the rest of the Noldor to follow along the coast.
At this point Mandos, the Doomsayer [or Judge] of the Valar, made clear
the wishes of Manwe that this pursuit of Melkor or Morgoth as Féanor
renamed him, should not be, and that those who went forward would be
under the Doom of Mandos, which you obliquely referred to in your post.
Now Galadriel had sworn no oaths, and had killed no Elf from choice but
only in defence and in her youth was headstrong and would not return,
desiring to follow Féanor and hinder him if she could. Thus, although
blameless of the Kinslaying, she too defied Manwe and came under the
Doom, part of which would mean a non-return to Valinor. This was
ultimately a penal, but not permananent sojuorn in Middle Earth, since
her works in fighting "the long defeat" culminating in her rejection of
the Ring earned her teh right to return to the Blessed Realm via
Eldamar.
She obviously believed this Doom still existed at tht time of the LotR,
since she did not return at the End of the First Age, still desiring
lands and realms to rule of her own free will. This was what she meant
when she said Frodo had seen more clearly than many accounted wise, when
he offered her the Ring for her own. She thought he had seen her own
overmastering desire, to be a great ruler in Middle Earth. Galadriel's
song of farewell was obviously an older work, based on the Noldors'
lamentation of their exile.
BTW, remember the request Gimli made and have surprised the elves were
that the granted it?
Galadriels hair was a wonder to behold. It was said by the Elves in the
Blessed Realm that in it had been caught the mixed light of the Two
Trees Telperion and Laurelin, silver and gold [in that order]. Féanor
had asked Galdriel for a tress and had been refused. It was suggested
that her hair was his inspiration for teh Silmarils, which literally
caught the Two Trees light. So she refused Féanor because of the
darkness she perceived within him, but granted Gimli his selfless wish.
FWIW
M.
elyse
Max Moroz <mmo...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Galadriel tells Frodo who offered her the Ring: "I pass the test. I
> will diminish, and go into the West and remain Galadriel."
>
> But I thought she was banned from Undying Lands, and the ban was only
> lifted as a reward for her refusal of the Ring. I read something like
> this in this newsgroup, but I cannot find any reference to that in the
> books (except for one passage in the Silm that refers only to Fëanor
> being exiled).
>
> Could someone clarify this?
>
of Wrath chapter, the exiles are granted pardon and allowed to live on
Tol Eressea. "[The Exiles] were admitted again to the loveof Manwe and
the pardon of the Valar; and the Teleri forgave their ancient grief,
and the curse was alid to rest." The text goes on to say that a certain
Elves, including Galadriel, stayed in Middle-earth by choice. So had
she gone back at the end of the First Age, she wouldn't have been
banned.
If you have Unfinished Tales, there is an interesting section on
Galadriel and Celeborn. Their story was always evolving in JRRT's mind.
Near the end of his life, he considered rewriting their story to have
Galadriel and Celeborn come to Middle-earth separately from Feanor and
the Exiles.
--
Eruve
Aris Katsaris
Max Moroz <mmo...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8go5ej$n3c$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Galadriel tells Frodo who offered her the Ring: "I pass the test. I
> will diminish, and go into the West and remain Galadriel."
>
> But I thought she was banned from Undying Lands, and the ban was only
> lifted as a reward for her refusal of the Ring. I read something like
> this in this newsgroup, but I cannot find any reference to that in the
> books (except for one passage in the Silm that refers only to Fëanor
> being exiled).
>
> Could someone clarify this?
Tolkien changed his mind concerning this very subject. Since his final view
on the matter was never published within his lifetime nobody really knows
for
sure what he would have decided in the end...
Form your own opinions...
Aris Katsaris
Aris Katsaris
Michael O'Neill <o...@indigo.ie> wrote in message
news:3930033F...@indigo.ie...
> Max Moroz wrote:
> >
> > Galadriel tells Frodo who offered her the Ring: "I pass the test. I
> > will diminish, and go into the West and remain Galadriel."
> >
> > But I thought she was banned from Undying Lands, and the ban was only
> > lifted as a reward for her refusal of the Ring. I read something like
> > this in this newsgroup, but I cannot find any reference to that in the
> > books (except for one passage in the Silm that refers only to Fëanor
> > being exiled).
> >
> > Could someone clarify this?
>
> like this,-
Wow, man! He asked a simple question, not Galadriel's life history... :-)
Btw, I feel that Tolkien went very soft-hearted towards her in the end, not
only going completely out of his way to find a way to awkwardly excuse
her of *any* wrongdoing, but also trying to raise her "power"-lever
so-to-speak far more than was fitting... Second mightiest of the Eldar!
Sheesh...
Aris Katsaris
Flame of the West
> > Could someone clarify this?
>
> I'm not seeing your point exactly,
His point is that it sounds kind of presumptuous for Galadriel
to say she chose to "go into the West" when she knew she
had been banned from doing so. How could she known in
advance that the Ban would be lifted?
> but the history of it goes something like this,-
<snip>
There is more than one strand of Galadriel history, and
Max is referring to the other one. According to JRRT
in "The Road Goes Ever On", Galadriel was *specifically*
banned from returning, because she had been a
leader of the revolt (all the others had died) and
because she was unrepentent (she even replied
that she had no desire to return). This was the
state of affairs at the time of LotR. Her personal
ban was lifted because of her opposition to Sauron,
and because her turning down the Ring showed that
she had gained some humility. Sometime after the
fall of Sauron, this had been made known to Galadriel,
possibly via the same communication that authorized
the Ring-Bearers to depart.
This version of Galadriel's history is the one given in
Robert Foster's Complete Guide to ME. It does leave
Max's question unanswered. My personal answer is
that she "just had a feeling" she'd finally get to go.
--
-- FotW
Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-Earth.
Max Moroz
> His point is that it sounds kind of presumptuous for Galadriel
> to say she chose to "go into the West" when she knew she
> had been banned from doing so. How could she known in
> advance that the Ban would be lifted?
That's precisely my point.
> According to JRRT
> in "The Road Goes Ever On", Galadriel was *specifically*
> banned from returning, because she had been a
> leader of the revolt (all the others had died) and
> because she was unrepentent (she even replied
> that she had no desire to return). This was the
> state of affairs at the time of LotR.
And when was this personal ban imposed? As Eruve mentioned in this
thread, at the end of the First Age the exiles were pardoned, and
Galadriel stayed on Middle Earth of her own will [according to the
Sil...].
> [...]
> This version of Galadriel's history is the one given in
> Robert Foster's Complete Guide to ME. It does leave
> Max's question unanswered. My personal answer is
> that she "just had a feeling" she'd finally get to go.
This seems to be the *only* answer that does not directly contradict
anything. To be so sure about the will of the Valar seems very
suspicious -- even for an Eldar.
Russ
<kats...@otenet.gr> writes:
>> Could someone clarify this?
>
>Tolkien changed his mind concerning this very subject. Since his final view
>on the matter was never published within his lifetime nobody really knows
>for
>sure what he would have decided in the end...
>
>Form your own opinions...
>
True, but he was moving in a certain direction. As his thoughts of Galadriel
developed he was more and more trying to distance her from the Rebellion.
Russ
Steuard Jensen
> > My personal answer is that she "just had a feeling" she'd finally
> > get to go.
> This seems to be the *only* answer that does not directly contradict
> anything. To be so sure about the will of the Valar seems very
> suspicious -- even for an Eldar.
She could actually have been "told", right then: in one of his
least-known (but to me one of his very most interesting) essays,
Tolkien discusses the "communication of thought" (telepathy, in
short), and mentions (though I'm having trouble picking out a good
brief quote) that the Valar (and, of course, Eru) could at times place
some knowledge directly into the minds of the Children of Iluvatar in
Middle-earth. (Such externally granted "foresight" was the basis of
prophecy, for example.) Perhaps the Valar were actually aware of
Galadriel's great temptation at the time, and put the knowledge of
their judgement into her heart as soon as they recognized her
decision.
I'm not saying that this has to be the answer, but it does seem
consistent with everything else Tolkien wrote, and it strikes me as a
fairly reasonable one at that. In case you're wondering what weird
text it is that I'm quoting, by the way, it's the "Osanwe-kenta:
Enquiry into the Communication of Thought", published in the journal
_Vinyar Tengwar_ #39 (every Tolkien fan should have a copy. :) See
www.elvish.org for details; it's just $2 for the issue).
Steuard Jensen
Mark Wells
(Steuard Jensen) wrote:
>She could actually have been "told", right then: in one of his
>least-known (but to me one of his very most interesting) essays,
>Tolkien discusses the "communication of thought" (telepathy, in
>short), and mentions (though I'm having trouble picking out a good
>brief quote) that the Valar (and, of course, Eru) could at times place
>some knowledge directly into the minds of the Children of Iluvatar in
I haven't read the essay, but it makes sense that the Valar would be
able to do this. Irmo, at least, did this sort of thing all the time.
>Middle-earth. (Such externally granted "foresight" was the basis of
>prophecy, for example.) Perhaps the Valar were actually aware of
>Galadriel's great temptation at the time, and put the knowledge of
>their judgement into her heart as soon as they recognized her
>decision.
Or perhaps the only remaining barrier to her return to Valinor was her
own lust for power, which she wasn't sure she had conquered. (She
might have feared what she might do to the Elves of Valinor in her
ambition. It would be a reasonable cause of concern for someone who
remembered Feanor.) Rejecting the Ring made it clear that she had
been redeemed.
Wide China Blue Yonder
/ thread, at the end of the First Age the exiles were pardoned, and
/ Galadriel stayed on Middle Earth of her own will [according to the
/ Sil...].
JRRT was very big on obedience, regardless of the authority that demands
obedience. The Valar had no specific authority to bring the Eldar to
Valinor, but those who refused seem slightly out of favour. They certainly
had no authority to order them to remain in Valinor, yet the curse was
primarily laid on them for leaving Valinor without permission. The
Kinslaying was a secondary issue. Then afterwards they were permitted
back, Galadriel refused, and her refusal was a disobedience.
You can come back now.
I don't want too. nyah-nyah!
Well then you can't come back. nyah-nyah!
You can't kick me out, I refused to come in. nyah-nyah!
--
CACS: Collective Against Consensual Sanity v0.123
Now a text site map! http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/cacs/
pretty? http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Studios/5079/
:)-free zone. Cthulu in '00: .../cacs/politics.html
Aris Katsaris
Wide China Blue Yonder <mlin...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:mlindanne-280...@c156.ppp.tsoft.com...
> / And when was this personal ban imposed? As Eruve mentioned in this
> / thread, at the end of the First Age the exiles were pardoned, and
> / Galadriel stayed on Middle Earth of her own will [according to the
> / Sil...].
>
> JRRT was very big on obedience, regardless of the authority that demands
> obedience. The Valar had no specific authority to bring the Eldar to
> Valinor, but those who refused seem slightly out of favour. They certainly
> had no authority to order them to remain in Valinor, yet the curse was
> primarily laid on them for leaving Valinor without permission. The
> Kinslaying was a secondary issue.
The Kinslaying was hardly secondary. All who followed Feanor were only
banished after the kinslaying and explicitly *because* of the Kinslaying.
Before the kinslaying only Feanor was banished and that because of
his oath, not because of his disobedience.
>Then afterwards they were permitted
> back, Galadriel refused, and her refusal was a disobedience.
I don't see it like that - IMO it's simply that she has to appear to them to
receive a pardon. By not going back, she's not accepted the pardon.
The disobedience is not by itself significant, after all Gil-galad, Elrond
and the like were also asked back, but there's no hint that they
were in "disfavour"...
Aris Katsaris
Flame of the West
> You can come back now.
> I don't want too. nyah-nyah!
> Well then you can't come back. nyah-nyah!
> You can't kick me out, I refused to come in. nyah-nyah!
It's not clear she was told she could come back at the
end of the First Age. I tend toward the view that she
was excluded as a leader of the initial rebellion of the
Noldor. (If any of the other leaders had survived,
presumably they too would have been banned.) It's
probably true, tho, that she would have been able to
go back anyway by sufficient grovelling. (Even Sauron
was given that option!)
Dave Lind
Wide China Blue Yonder <mlin...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:mlindanne-280...@c156.ppp.tsoft.com...
> / And when was this personal ban imposed? As Eruve mentioned in this
> / thread, at the end of the First Age the exiles were pardoned, and
> / Galadriel stayed on Middle Earth of her own will [according to the
> / Sil...].
>
> JRRT was very big on obedience, regardless of the authority that demands
> obedience. The Valar had no specific authority to bring the Eldar to
> Valinor, but those who refused seem slightly out of favour.
Maybe, maybe not, but what is your source for this assurtion?
> They certainly
> had no authority to order them to remain in Valinor, yet the curse was
> primarily laid on them for leaving Valinor without permission. The
> Kinslaying was a secondary issue. Then afterwards they were permitted
> back, Galadriel refused, and her refusal was a disobedience.
The Kinslaying was the primary issue. Before the Kinslaying only Feanor was
exiled because of his arrogance and his own desire. After the Kinslaying all
the Noldor who followed him were exiled.
Dave
Mark Wells
<jsol...@erols.com> wrote:
>It's not clear she was told she could come back at the
>end of the First Age. I tend toward the view that she
>was excluded as a leader of the initial rebellion of the
I don't find any indication that _anyone_ was excluded simply on the
grounds of being a leader of the rebellion of the Noldor. The Valar
recognized that the Noldor had come to Valinor freely[0] and were free
to go. Feanor and his sons were banned because of their oath; their
followers[1], and Fingolfin and his followers, were banned because of
the Kinslaying.
>Noldor. (If any of the other leaders had survived,
>presumably they too would have been banned.) It's
>probably true, tho, that she would have been able to
>go back anyway by sufficient grovelling. (Even Sauron
>was given that option!)
[0] As demonstrated by the fact that some of them chose not to go.
[1] This isn't stated anywhere, but I suspect some of them might have
taken oaths of their own (though they obviously wouldn't be the same
as Feanor's). The only 'evidence' that comes close to supporting this
is the statement that "Galadriel swore no oaths", which almost implies
that there were other oaths being sworn all around her. This is
shaky, but plausible.
Flame of the West
> I don't find any indication that _anyone_ was excluded simply on the
> grounds of being a leader of the rebellion of the Noldor.
What do you mean? Have you read the relevant part of
The Road Goes Ever On? I have, but I do not own a copy,
and do not remember the paragraph verbatim. If anyone
has that paragraph, perhaps he or she might quote if for us?
Stan Brown
> The Valar
>recognized that the Noldor had come to Valinor freely[0] and were free
>to go.
>
I agree, and I can offer an explicit corroboration.
In Chapter 7 of Silm, in the section about Feanor's speech in the
square, it says: "And Manwë was grieved, but he watched and said no
word. The Valar had brought the Eldar to their land freely, to dwell or
to depart; and though they might judge departure to be folly, they might
not restrain them from it."
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA
http://oakroadsystems.com
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm
Max Moroz
sbje...@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote:
> She could actually have been "told", right then [...]
Does anyone believe the story went like this:
Galadriel would have taken the Ring if she wanted to stay in Middle-
earth much longer. But she was already tired of the Mortal Lands. Even
with the Ring, she knew her years there were running out. She saw her
race being overwhelmed by Men, in raw numbers and in importance. Of
course, the Ring would have greatly slowed down this process. But the
future still belonged to Men, and emotionally Elves had all but
departed.
Galadriel toyed with the idea of using the Ring to rule Middle-earth
briefly, before leaving forever. She felt she could hold her own
against the Ring's dangers for a few centuries.
Unfortunately, if she did this, the Valar would not pardon her, at
least for a while. So, rather than rule Middle-earth far longer than
she cared to, Galadriel simply gave up to the pressure and refused the
Ring.
Mark Wells
<jsol...@erols.com> wrote:
>Mark Wells wrote:
>
>> I don't find any indication that _anyone_ was excluded simply on the
>> grounds of being a leader of the rebellion of the Noldor.
>
>What do you mean? Have you read the relevant part of
>The Road Goes Ever On? I have, but I do not own a copy,
No, I can't say I have. I'd like to see what you're talking about,
but I'm not sure whether to take it over the line of reasoning clearly
described in Silm.
The Valar would not forbid the Noldor to leave (see Stan Brown's
post). Therefore, Galadriel committed no crime against the Valar by
leading those who wished to leave.
The 'rebellion' of the Noldor actually consisted of three separate
acts:
1. The Oath of Feanor, which was bad.
2. The Kinslaying, which was very bad.
3. The departure from Valinor, which technically wasn't even a crime.
Galadriel was a leader of (3). There is no evidence that she was
involved in the Kinslaying. The followers of Feanor and Fingolfin
were guilty of (2), so they were banished from Valinor.[0] But
Fingolfin's tribe was given the opportunity to repent, while Feanor
and his wanker sons weren't.
[0] Most of Fingolfin's family died in Beleriand, so I guess they got
back into Valinor anyway[1]. The only exceptions are Idril and her
descendants. Idril's fate is uncertain. She wasn't allowed to enter
Valinor when she sailed west, but this might have changed at the end
of the First Age. I'm not quite sure she was a Kinslayer; she might
have been a child at the time. Earendil certainly wasn't, but he's a
special case.
[1] As did Feanor and almost all of FWS, for what it's worth.
Dave Lind
Mark Wells <ma...@pc-intouch.com> wrote in message
news:39339885...@news.verio.net...
> On Mon, 29 May 2000 08:09:13 -0400, Flame of the West
> <jsol...@erols.com> wrote:
>
> >Mark Wells wrote:
> >
> >> I don't find any indication that _anyone_ was excluded simply on the
> >> grounds of being a leader of the rebellion of the Noldor.
> >
> >What do you mean? Have you read the relevant part of
> >The Road Goes Ever On? I have, but I do not own a copy,
>
> No, I can't say I have. I'd like to see what you're talking about,
> but I'm not sure whether to take it over the line of reasoning clearly
> described in Silm.
The relavent part from _The Road Goes Ever On_ is as follows:
The question _Sí man i yulma nin enquantuva?_
and the question at the end of her song (Vol. 1,
P. 389), _What ship would bear me ever back
across so wide a Sea?_, refer to the special
position of Galadriel. She was the last survivor
of the princes and queens who had led the revolting
_Noldor_ to exile in Middle-earth. After the
overthrow of Morgoth at the end of the First Age
a ban was set upon her return, and she had replied
proudly that she had no wish to do so. She passed
over the Mountains of _Eredluin_ with her husband
_Celeborn_ (one of the _Sindar_) and went to
_Eregion_. But it was impossible for one of the
High-Elves to overcome the yearning for the Sea,
and the longing to pass over it again to the land of
their former bliss. She was now burdened with this
desire. In the event, after the fall of _Sauron_, in
reward for all that she had done to oppose him,
but above all for her rejection of the Ring when it
came within her power, the ban was lifted, and she
returned over the Sea, as is told at the end of
_The Lord of the Rings_.
RGEO was published in 1968 during Tolkien's lifetime, to me therefore it
takes precedence over what is said in _The Silmarillion_. That being said I
believe that Galadriel's story as told in _The Silmarillion_ is the only one
C.Tolkien could have included, as it was the one that was actually written
into "Quenta Silmarillion" and the Annals.
Dave
Creole
> The 'rebellion' of the Noldor actually consisted of three separate
> acts:
>
> 1. The Oath of Feanor, which was bad.
> 2. The Kinslaying, which was very bad.
> 3. The departure from Valinor, which technically wasn't even a crime.
>
> Galadriel was a leader of (3). There is no evidence that she was
> involved in the Kinslaying.
If anything, the evidence is the other way around: these were her
relatives, and she wouldn't have dared take up with Thingol and Melian if
she had Telerin blood on her hands. (Is that the proper plural?)
This comment, though, does make me wonder: why were all the Noldor included
in the Ban of the Valar, even those that fall under Mark's category 3? Is
this yet another instance of the Valar being self-serving creeps? :)
Creole
Flame of the West
> The relavent part from _The Road Goes Ever On_ is as follows:
>
> <snip>
Thank you very much. It's a source of annoyance to me that a
relevant passage from JRRT's lifetime should be so hard to obtain.
> RGEO was published in 1968 during Tolkien's lifetime, to me therefore it
> takes precedence over what is said in _The Silmarillion_. That being said I
> believe that Galadriel's story as told in _The Silmarillion_ is the only one
> C.Tolkien could have included, as it was the one that was actually written
> into "Quenta Silmarillion" and the Annals.
Agreed on both counts. Of course, CT made amends in UT, by including
the story of Celeborn and Galadriel.
BTW, one sees that Max's original question is still valid. Let me
rephrase it as follows: why would Tolkien publish this paragraph
in RGEO if he had already committed in print to Galadriel having
said she chose to go into the West? I think the "just had a feeling"
and "telepathy" theories both apply as possible solutions, but of
course we'll never know (in this life) what Tolkien was thinking
(or if he *was* thinking).
Eruadan
Max Moroz <mmo...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Does anyone believe the story went like this:
>
> Galadriel would have taken the Ring if she wanted to stay in Middle-
> earth much longer. But she was already tired of the Mortal Lands. Even
Sorry, I wouldn't buy that if it was on sale for free. ;)
Eruadan
--
<*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*>
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, because to them
you are small, insignificant, and taste good with ketchup
Terran
<jsol...@erols.com> wrote:
<snip>
>His point is that it sounds kind of presumptuous for Galadriel
>to say she chose to "go into the West" when she knew she
>had been banned from doing so. How could she known in
>advance that the Ban would be lifted?
<snip>
>This version of Galadriel's history is the one given in
>Robert Foster's Complete Guide to ME. It does leave
>Max's question unanswered. My personal answer is
>that she "just had a feeling" she'd finally get to go.
I hadn't given this point much thought, but my first take here is that
her aside might have been a fatalistic one. She well understood the
probable consequences of not taking the ring to overthrow the Dark
Lord, but instead relying on the long shot "hobbit" card. There was
another way for her to "go into the West," ban or no.
Just a thought.
>-- FotW
Terran
>Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-Earth.
(ain't it the truth...)
Maia
And why not? IMHO it is quite illogical and a great pity, though, that
he didn't expand on her backstory to match her new status. I mean, it
looks like during the First Age she has done... exactly nothing. I
always found Galadriel's non-involvement with the story of Beren and
Luthien and the issues of Nargothrond and Doriath extremely jarring.
The character we have seen in LOTR wouldn't have sat by idly whilst
her favourite brother was being slaughtered... And even less so a
character Tolkien changed her into in his later writings.
BTW, does anyone else think that letting Finrod Felagund live on to
the end of First Age like some sort of Cassandra would have made for a
wonderful tragedy? I always thought that he and Gwindor should have
been the same person...
Aris Katsaris
Maia <a900...@unet.univie.ac.at> wrote in message
news:393D34C2...@unet.univie.ac.at...
> Aris Katsaris schrieb:
> >
> > Michael O'Neill <o...@indigo.ie> wrote in message
> > news:3930033F...@indigo.ie...
> > > Max Moroz wrote:
>
> > Wow, man! He asked a simple question, not Galadriel's life history...
:-)
> >
> > Btw, I feel that Tolkien went very soft-hearted towards her in the end,
not
> > only going completely out of his way to find a way to awkwardly excuse
> > her of *any* wrongdoing, but also trying to raise her "power"-lever
> > so-to-speak far more than was fitting... Second mightiest of the Eldar!
> > Sheesh...
>
> And why not? IMHO it is quite illogical and a great pity, though, that
> he didn't expand on her backstory to match her new status. I mean, it
> looks like during the First Age she has done... exactly nothing.
She did more than Angrod or Aegnor did ; was one of the leaders that
guided the Noldor through Helcaraxe - that I do not mind. But her
inactivity is what causes me to disagree with the "Second Mightiest"
remark.
> I
> always found Galadriel's non-involvement with the story of Beren and
> Luthien and the issues of Nargothrond and Doriath extremely jarring.
> The character we have seen in LOTR wouldn't have sat by idly whilst
> her favourite brother was being slaughtered... And even less so a
> character Tolkien changed her into in his later writings.
I agree it's a bit jarring. Galadriel does say in LoTR that she passed the
mountains before the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin - we don't know
for sure when exactly she left Beleriand, and for which precise reason.
> BTW, does anyone else think that letting Finrod Felagund live on to
> the end of First Age like some sort of Cassandra would have made for a
> wonderful tragedy? I always thought that he and Gwindor should have
> been the same person...
Hmm... I'm not sure I agree. It would have required a complete rewriting
of the Turin Turambar chapter ofcourse - and am not sure how it could
be incorporated in the story of Beren and Luthien - Finrod being taken
quickly to Angband by Sauron's soldiers?
Anyway the two characters are so separate in my mind that I'm having
trouble combining the two.. It's certainly ian interesting idea though...
Aris Katsaris