Chapter of the Week, BK 2, CH 4 - A Journey in the Dark
Michelle J. Haines
We return to Our Heros in the evening, after their retreat from
Caradhas. Gandalf gives everyone a shot of miruvor, they have some
dinner, and sit down to decide what to do next.
Gandalf comments that their choices are to go on, or to go back to
Rivendell. A bit of belaboring the obvious there, I think. What
would their third choice be? Flap their arms and fly to the moon?
I think we have an indication of the three hobbits not really
understanding the seriousness of their mission, when Sam, Merry, and
Pippin all look hopeful at the mention of returning to Rivendell.
Frodo obviously understands this isn't really an option, Aragorn and
Boromir are stone-faced, and we get no indication of Legolas' or
Gimli's thoughts.
Gandalf broaches the idea of Moria, while indicating that Aragorn
never liked this idea. Everyone but Gimli is afraid of the place,
and sinks further into depression. Gimli is emotionally galvanized
by the idea. Boromir broaches the idea of passing through the Gap of
Rohan and taking the Ring to Gondor -- one of the first of several
attempts to get the Ring to his home. He earns a snappish dressing
down from Gandalf, outlining the dangers from both Saruman and Sauron
they would encounter on such a lengthy journey. Gandalf also
indicates he thinks going through Moria will make the party
temporarily disappear, and throw the Enemy off the trail. He cites
the Battle of Five Armies as having significantly reduced the Orc
population, and that Moria may not be repopulated at this point. He
then throws in a reference to to Balin and Company, but from the
various reactions of the company and even Gandalf's late reference to
them, you certainly get the feeling that no one expects to find them
alive.
Aragorn reveals he's been through Moria, and really doesn't want to
go back. Gandalf says he's been through, and calls for a vote for
who will follow him this time. Boromir firmly refuses to entertain
the notion unless he's unanimously outvoted, with Legolas and the
hobbits already saying, "Uh-uh, no way!" The night breaks out in
howling as wolves prepare to attack, and Boromir immediate pipes up,
"How far to Moria?" *snicker*
The group camps on a hillside for protection for the night, inside a
circle of stones and with a fire. The hilltop is soon ringed by
wolves, with one seemingly in charge. Gandalf hurls a rather
spectacular threat at him, "Gandalf is here. Fly, if you value your
foul skin! I will shrivel you from tail to snout, if you come within
this ring."
The wolf, not taking any crap from any wizards, jumps at Gandalf, to
be immediately downed by an arrow from Legolas. I was always a
little disappointed by this, and felt it took some of the teeth out
of Gandalf's threat. I guess if the Elf can shoot the wolf, there's
not much point in shriveling him, but I always felt like if Gandalf
had shriveled the wolf, the rest might have fled a bit more
permanently.
The Wargs run off, but regroup to attack later in the night, and we
have a dramatic Warg fight [1]. In a scene somewhat reminiscent of
the one in The Hobbit, Gandalf lights the trees of the hilltop on
fire, Legolas' last arrow catches fire as it "plunged burning into
the heart of the great wolf-chieftian" and the rest of the wolves
skedaddle post-haste.
In the morning, the only signs of the fight are burned trees and
Legolas' UNDAMAGED arrows, except for the burned one. No bodies, no
footprints, and apparently no indication the arrows killed any
wolves, or some of them would have been damaged. This always
confused me. Are we to think the wolves dragged off their dead in
the middle of the night, even those that were killed in the middle of
the circle? And how or why would the wolves removed the arrows from
the bodies of their comrades first? Did the bodies evaporate into
the ether? Why are none of the arrows damaged? Was this somehow not
a real fight, but some illusion conjured up by Sauron or Saruman? Is
this ever explained?
Gandalf's only comment was he feared the wolves were not ordinary,
and after breakfast, off they go on their journey to Moria. Gandalf
states they must reach the Doors before nightfall, presumably afraid
of a renewed Warg attack. He is looking for the landmark of
Sirannon, the Gate-Stream, but concerned because he can't find it.
Gimli finally locates it, but the swift, noisy river has been reduced
to a trickle, but still gives them their bearings, so on they go.
I don't think I can improve upon Gandalf's description of the former
geography, so I'll simply reproduce it here:
"There is all that remains of the Stair Falls. If I remember right,
there was a flight of steps cut into the rock at their side, but the
main road wound away left and climbed with several loops up to the
level ground at the top. There used to be a shallow valley beyond
the falls right up to the Walls of Moria, and the Sirannon flowed
through it with the road beside it."
So, the stairs were a shortcut up the wall for those on foot, leading
up the cliff and then to the road in a direct route to the gates.
For those riding, or presumably for supplies, folks wearing heavy
armor, and others who couldn't get up a steep stair, there was a more
level but longer road that went around the cliff and then into the
valley. I think.
Gandalf, Gimli, and Frodo climb the stair to find the river dammed
and a lake blocking their path. In all the future references to the
water as a "pool", I always had something relatively small in mind.
It's not until recently, when the passage "had filled all the
valley" leaped out at me, when I finally got a better mental grasp on
just how big the body of water was.
Anyway, they can't get across the water, so must take the main road.
Given that Bill couldn't get up the stairs, the first indication of
leaving Bill behind is broached, since they can't take him into the
Mines anyway. Frodo's first thought is for Sam's upset.
The Company goes around the lake on the road, but must wade a small
tributary. Frodo shudders at the water on his feet: more
foreshadowing that something unhealthy lurks about, started with
Gandalf's earlier comment that the water looks unwholesome. In the
silence, an ominous *plop* is heard, followed by ripples on the lake
from an unknown source. This is almost a classic horror-movie moment
scene, but still manages to be chillingly disturbing.
They reach the gate, to be greeted by enormous Holly trees, planted
by the Elves of Hollin. That was during the Second Age, was it not?
Those are some OLD trees. Also, I don't have a good mental image of
what holly TREES might look like, since I've only really seen holly
bushes, although some pretty big ones.
Gandalf tells everyone to get ready to go into Moria while he
searches for the door, and Sam finally finds out the plan to leave
Bill at the door. He is understandably upset, but Gandalf blesses
the pony, and they have hope he'll find his way back to Rivendell.
Gandalf remembers the words to awaken the ithildin, and awakens the
signs on the door, in what is one of the most iconic LOTR visual
moments for me.[2] There is a bunch of conversation on how to get
the doors open, and lots of spell shouting, which takes many hours,
with Boromir throwing a stone into the pool in a fit of pique.
Gandalf finally solves the famous "friend" riddle, and door opens.
Just as Gandalf steps inside, our Horror Movie Moment comes to
fruition, and Frodo is sized by Something in the water. It's a
tentacle, which Sam frees him from by slashing it with a knife, but
twenty other arms come flailing out of the water! There is no really
dramatic rescue, just the Company fleeing into the Mines and Gandalf
trying to figure out how to close the doors.
He's saved the trouble, as the monster slams the doors closed,
uproots the ancient trees, and piles boulders in front of the doors,
closing them permanently. Can you feel the weight of the darkness,
and the pressing down of the earth as the creature traps them inside
the Mines?
What the creature is is never given more explanation that Gandalf's,
"Something has crept, or been driven out of the dark waters under the
mountains. There are older and fouler things that Orcs in the deep
places of the world." Foreshadowing for the Balrog, but also, what
IS the Watcher? Did it come out and dam the river itself to make a
place to live? How was it created? Do we fall back on the
explanation of it being a renegade Maia? Is it something bred by
Morgoth? What drove it out from under the mountains? The Balrog?
Perhaps most chilling to Gandalf, it seized Frodo first, perhaps
drawn by the power it feels in the Ring? Why did it wait so long to
attack the Company as they sat on the sides of the pool? Why did it
seal them into the Mines? And why did it never seal the Dwarves in?
After a meal and another bracing drink, the Company presses on into
Moria, with a brief description of complicated passages, arches,
stairways, tunnels, etc. During a whispered consultation of which
way to go, Aragorn throws out this tantalizing tidbit: "He is surer
of finding the way home in a blind night than the cats of Queen
Beruthiel." Nice little story hook, there.
Moria is not in good repair, and there are fissures and chasms in the
walls and floors, with the occasionally huge gap in the middle of
their road. Sam bemoans the lack of rope. But seriously, why on
EARTH would anyone have a three-and-a-half foot hobbit broad jump a
seven foot gap, with a slip meaning a fall to the death, when you
have to good-sized Men who could easily pick him up and TOSS him
over? Being absolutely terrified of heights, I had a significant
amount of empathy for Pippin, trembling on the edge of a gap while
summoning up the courage to jump it, when the obvious solution was
right there.[3]
The Ring starts to randomly feel heavy to Frodo, and he is certain of
feeling evil following and evil ahead. At this point, he's also
starting to hear the soft echo of Gollum's footsteps, who has found
the Company and is now trailing them.
They come to the crossroads where Gandalf does not know which way to
go, so they stop in at a guard room to take a rest while he decides.
Pippin drops his fateful stone down the guard room well.[4] Is this
what triggers the hunt for the Company through Moria? It's certainly
the implication, although it's possible they would have been
discovered anyway.
Gandalf makes his choice, and they journey on to find themselves in a
great chasm. Gandalf makes an interesting comment; "We are coming
now to the habitable parts, and I guess now that we are not far from
the eastern side." The habitable parts? So, the Dwarves lived on
the eastern side of Moria, and the western side was all mining and
work? The door out the western side must have been the back door, so
to speak?
The group stops for the night in the hall, with Gimli singing a song
about Khazad-dum and Durin, and Gandalf explaining the value of
mithril, and dropping the bomb that Bilbo's mithril shirt was worth
more than the entire Shire. During Frodo's watch, he has a deep
feeling of dread, but doesn't know why. At the end of his watch, he
finally sees the eyes of Gollum, but doesn't know what they are.
When he lies down to sleep, he continues to see them. Maybe a slight
telepathic connection with Gollum via the Ring?
They wake, and Gandalf decides to look about the hall before deciding
which way to go. They find a large square room, containing the tomb
of Balin, son of Fundin, Lord of Moria. The effort to take back
Moria indeed failed, and the chapter ends in gloom and grieving.
[1] You could even call it a PJ style battle, except that he pushed
it off into the wrong time with different characters. I suppose the
fact that it's more of a displaced battle than a completely invented
one is why I never detested it the way many do.
[2] I was quite glad to see it so faithfully reproduced in the movie,
but I suppose they could hardly screw it up. :)
[3] Again, why I never minded -- and indeed liked -- the stair-
jumping scene in the movie. It visually filled in this little
logical gap for me, even if it opened others.
[4] While PJ overplayed the stone bit, some, I really liked this
scene in the movie, for Pippin's, "Oops!" wincing, Gandalf looking
madder with every sound, and all of the "Oh, CRAP!" looks on
Legolas', Boromir's, and Aragorn's faces. Nice scene.
--
Drift on a river, That flows through my arms
Drift as I'm singing to you
I see you smiling, So peaceful and calm
And holding you, I'm smiling, too
Here in my arms, Safe from all harm
Holding you, I'm smiling, too
-- For Xander [9/22/98 - 2/23/99]
AC
Michelle J Haines <mha...@io.nanc.com> wrote:
<snip>
> The Ring starts to randomly feel heavy to Frodo, and he is certain of
> feeling evil following and evil ahead. At this point, he's also
> starting to hear the soft echo of Gollum's footsteps, who has found
> the Company and is now trailing them.
I wonder here whether this effect is due to Gollum, the Balrog or something
else.
--
Aaron Clausen
mightym...@hotmail.com
AC
> "Something has crept, or been driven out of the dark waters under the
> mountains. There are older and fouler things that Orcs in the deep
> places of the world." Foreshadowing for the Balrog, but also, what
> IS the Watcher? Did it come out and dam the river itself to make a
> place to live? How was it created? Do we fall back on the
> explanation of it being a renegade Maia? Is it something bred by
> Morgoth? What drove it out from under the mountains? The Balrog?
> Perhaps most chilling to Gandalf, it seized Frodo first, perhaps
> drawn by the power it feels in the Ring? Why did it wait so long to
> attack the Company as they sat on the sides of the pool? Why did it
> seal them into the Mines? And why did it never seal the Dwarves in?
A mention in the Silmarillion about creatures that Melkor had let loose upon
Middle Earth before the first rising of the Sun comes to mind (terrible
horned beasts or something like that). It is quite possible that this piece
of nastiness may very well have been one of those creatures, created to
terrorize the Elves when they first awakened. I can imagine that there
might be all sorts of horrors of that kind. If this was one of those nasty
creations of Melkor, then it could have either be doing the Balrog's bidding
or Sauron's by guarding the Hollin Gate.
--
Aaron Clausen
mightym...@hotmail.com
AC
Michelle J. Haines
mightym...@hotmail.com says...
> This should be crossposted to AFT as well.
Oops, I forgot. Sorry.
Michelle
Flutist
The American
"AC" <mightym...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:slrnc9vekb.254....@alder.alberni.net...
I always thought it was just a nasty "natural" creature that had risen up
from the depths of Moria.
Natural in the sense that it wasn't directed by Sauron or the Balrog.
Idhtbifom but wasn't there a comment later about there being tunnels in
Moria deeper than the Dwarves ever managed to go?
Or rather tunnels deeper than any tunnels made by the Dwarves of Moria.
Denizens of the previous bottom of the flat earth that managed to survive
the changing of the world?
Giant nasty worms?
I'm totally reaching on that one!
T.A.
Hope
>From: "The American" a_real_...@hotspammail.com
>Date: 10/05/2004 19:44 GMT Daylight Time
>Message-id: <N_udnf04Bpj...@conversent.net>
>I always thought it was just a nasty "natural" creature that had risen up
>from the depths of Moria.
>Natural in the sense that it wasn't directed by Sauron or the Balrog.
>Idhtbifom but wasn't there a comment later about there being tunnels in
>Moria deeper than the Dwarves ever managed to go?
>Or rather tunnels deeper than any tunnels made by the Dwarves of Moria.
>
>Denizens of the previous bottom of the flat earth that managed to survive
>the changing of the world?
>Giant nasty worms?
>I'm totally reaching on that one!
>
Tolkien tipping the hat to HP Lovecraft? I always thought the watcher was very
Mythosian.
Glenn Holliday
>
> In the morning, the only signs of the fight are burned trees and
> Legolas' UNDAMAGED arrows, except for the burned one. No bodies, no
> footprints, and apparently no indication the arrows killed any
> wolves, or some of them would have been damaged. This always
> confused me. Are we to think the wolves dragged off their dead in
> the middle of the night, even those that were killed in the middle of
> the circle? And how or why would the wolves removed the arrows from
> the bodies of their comrades first? Did the bodies evaporate into
> the ether? Why are none of the arrows damaged? Was this somehow not
> a real fight, but some illusion conjured up by Sauron or Saruman? Is
> this ever explained?
Not that I know of. It feels like a loose end to me.
We know Wargs from other works, and it's clear they are
physical and mortal. Yet the undamaged arrows clearly hints
that they arrows had no physical effect. But if the Wargs
were spirit beings or illusions, and therefore unhurt in the battle,
why did they lose?
If they were illusions, then Saruman could not produce the
illusion that they killed off the Fellowship. (Reminds me
of Mad Magazine's take on Mandrake the Magician:
"I can hypnotize you into believing that I have fixed the car,
and I can even hypnotize myself into believing that I have
fixed the car, but how can I convince the car that it is fixed?")
So if Saruman produced an illusory battle, it was solely
for the purpose of harrassing the Fellowship and robbing
them of rest. But we have no indication this was one of
Saruman's abilities (or Sauron's, for that matter).
This type of magic is found in Irish fairy stories, but
has no precedence in Tolkien. Besides, I would expect
Gandalf to recognize a situation like that. His comment
that he feared the wolves were not ordinary might be a clue
that something was wrong. But Gandalf certainly seems
to think the Wargs are real, even if extraordinary.
I haven't found a satisfactory answer.
--
Glenn Holliday holl...@acm.org
Glenn Holliday
>
> They reach the gate, to be greeted by enormous Holly trees, planted
> by the Elves of Hollin. That was during the Second Age, was it not?
> Those are some OLD trees. Also, I don't have a good mental image of
> what holly TREES might look like, since I've only really seen holly
> bushes, although some pretty big ones.
They're impressive. We have a holly wood about a mile from my
house. They've been undisturbed for a century or so. They
grow to be full-sized trees, as tall as the white oaks in our area,
I think our tallest pines get taller than our tallest oaks
or hollies. I haven't actually measured them.
They are as big around as the white oaks, though not as
big around as the willow oaks (some of those get enormous
girth here). Probably a little less than 4 feet in diameter.
Smooth barked. The lowest branches are 6 feet or so above
the ground. They grow close together, so it's pretty dense
and dark under the hollies.
Walking through the holly wood is like walking through any
other forest, except that the leaf mulch underfoot is
prickly holly leaves. You don't want to walk through
them barefoot.
--
Glenn Holliday holl...@acm.org
Christopher Kreuzer
> They're impressive. We have a holly wood about a mile from my
You live in Hollywood??
Oh. My mistake...
Shanahan
>> "Michelle J. Haines" wrote:
>> In the morning, the only signs of the fight are burned trees
>> and Legolas' UNDAMAGED arrows, except for the burned one. No
>> bodies, no footprints, and apparently no indication the arrows
>> killed any wolves, or some of them would have been damaged.
>> This always confused me. Are we to think the wolves dragged
>> off their dead in the middle of the night, even those that
>> were killed in the middle of the circle? And how or why would
>> the wolves removed the arrows from the bodies of their
>> comrades first? Did the bodies evaporate into the ether? Why
>> are none of the arrows damaged? Was this somehow not a real
>> fight, but some illusion conjured up by Sauron or Saruman? Is
>> this ever explained?
>
> Not that I know of. It feels like a loose end to me.
> We know Wargs from other works, and it's clear they are
> physical and mortal. Yet the undamaged arrows clearly hints
> that they arrows had no physical effect. But if the Wargs
> were spirit beings or illusions, and therefore unhurt in the
> battle, why did they lose?
I think they were illusions, and that it was Gandalf's magical
fire that destroyed them, one spell breaking another.
> If they were illusions, then Saruman could not produce the
> illusion that they killed off the Fellowship.
Yah, this is a deal-breaker. (speculation on) Perhaps they were
magically created beings, given solid form, but just particles
held together and motivated by a spell. The Warg chieftain could
have been a real Warg, inhabited by an evil spirit. Or perhaps
they were illusory, but could only hurt you if you believed in
them, if they frightened you enough. (Suddenly I'm flashing back
to the Star Trek TOS episode where they're at the shootout at the
OK Corral...)
- Ciaran S.
Christopher Kreuzer
>
>> A Journey in the Dark
>> Gandalf also
>> indicates he thinks going through Moria will make the party
>> temporarily disappear, and throw the Enemy off the trail.
Which is a point that many people miss. Including Celeborn. I get the
impression that Gandalf thinks, especially from the shadow passing
overhead recently, and the flights of crebain, and the Caradhras
episode, that the Company have been marked and will soon be attacked. As
indeed happens.
On the other hand, this makes me wonder why they took so long to leave
Rivendell (nearly 2 months). They had to be ready for the quest, but it
must have been a hard decision to decide when to actually leave. It is
fairly impressive that they got as far as they did without being
discovered by spies of Saruman or Sauron.
>> Aragorn reveals he's been through Moria, and really doesn't want to
>> go back.
He also warns Gandalf: "If you pass the doors of Moria, beware!"
Is this Aragorn being prophetic, or is he basing his feelings on some
actual knowledge, maybe from his previous journey into Moria?
>> The night breaks out in howling as wolves prepare to attack, and
>> Boromir immediate pipes up, "How far to Moria?" *snicker*
:-)
Were the wargs under Sauron's control? I've always assumed the crebain
were Saruman's spies, as Aragorn says they were from Dunland, but I've
never been entirely sure about the wargs.
Oh, wait. Gandalf says "Hound of Sauron". Silly me.
>> The group camps on a hillside for protection for the night, inside a
>> circle of stones and with a fire.
Does anyone think this is some remnant of Eregion's buildings? It
reminds me very slightly of the standing stones on the Barrow-downs, but
maybe it is just the remnant of a watchtower, like on Weathertop.
>> The wolf, not taking any crap from any wizards, jumps at Gandalf, to
>> be immediately downed by an arrow from Legolas. I was always a
>> little disappointed by this, and felt it took some of the teeth out
>> of Gandalf's threat.
For me, it increased my respect for Legolas. His character is developing
slowly but surely. We have already had the comments in the snow, and the
comments about the long-lost Elves of Eregion.
>> Gandalf lights the trees of the hilltop on
>> fire, Legolas' last arrow catches fire as it "plunged burning into
>> the heart of the great wolf-chieftian" and the rest of the wolves
>> skedaddle post-haste.
:-)
We covered the meaning of the first part of Gandalf's incantation in the
last chapter (Fire for the saving of us), but what does 'Naur dan i
ngaurhoth' mean? Naur is fire, and gaurhoth sounds familiar, but I can't
place it.
Ah! Got it!! Tol-in-Gaurhoth: Isle of Werewolves (Silm, 18). Former
residence of one Sauron. Slightly more salubrious than Dol Guldur, but
maybe not as impressive as Barad-dur.
BTW, what is the difference between these 'magical' wargs and the wild
wolves that were said to be hunting in the valleys of the Anduin
(reported by Elrond's scouts). Aragorn says the wargs have come west of
the mountains, so maybe they are the same, but Elrond's scouts didn't
properly identify them as wargs. But then why is Aragorn so sure they
are wargs? Maybe he meant non-magical wargs, whatever those might be?
>> In the morning, the only signs of the fight are burned trees and
>> Legolas' UNDAMAGED arrows, except for the burned one. No bodies, no
>> footprints, and apparently no indication the arrows killed any
>> wolves, or some of them would have been damaged.
I always assumed the arrows did their damage without getting damaged.
And I ascribed the disappearance of the bodies to 'magic'. I never
really thought about it further and just accepted it.
[moving on to the Sirannon]
>> It's not until recently, when the passage "had filled all the
>> valley" leaped out at me, when I finally got a better mental grasp on
>> just how big the body of water was.
A bit further on we hear that the lake is no more than "two of three
furlongs [across] at the widest point. How far it stretched away
southwards they could not see..."
First, how far is 2-3 furlongs? Not too much I'd guess.
To fill in the visual picture again, remember that the Fellowship
approached this lake from the west, heading east towards the Cliffs of
Moria. The impression I get is that the valley that is filled with the
long narrow lake runs from north-south, bat that Sirannon normally
flowed east-west over the cliff that formed the western side of the
valley (the Misty Mountains form the eastern side). They climb this
cliff, but find the lake in their way.
Then they go by the road, and apparently emerge on top of the cliff at a
point further north than the Fall Stairs, but still with a bit of the
northernmost edge of the lake to go round. They then, go round this
northern end and end up on the other side of the lake by the Cliffs of
Moria.
Remember the comments later about how the water was often higher than
this, and actually prevented anyone getting into or out of Moria, and
that, luckily for the Fellowship, the Watcher-in-the-Water was away down
at the south end which was a long way away as we have just been told.
>> In the silence, an ominous *plop* is heard, followed by ripples on
the lake
>> from an unknown source. This is almost a classic horror-movie moment
>> scene, but still manages to be chillingly disturbing.
Can this be the Watcher-in-the-Water? If so, why does it wait and not
attack now? Is it actually alerted by the crossing of the stream, or by
something else? Did the Ring wake it up?
>> They reach the gate, to be greeted by enormous Holly trees, planted
>> by the Elves of Hollin. That was during the Second Age, was it not?
>> Those are some OLD trees. Also, I don't have a good mental image of
>> what holly TREES might look like, since I've only really seen holly
>> bushes, although some pretty big ones.
Just before this point we also read about some of the dead holly trees.
These show where the water reached right up to the doors, but not far
enough to kill the two at the doors.
>> Gandalf tells everyone to get ready to go into Moria while he
>> searches for the door, and Sam finally finds out the plan to leave
>> Bill at the door. He is understandably upset, but Gandalf blesses
>> the pony, and they have hope he'll find his way back to Rivendell.
>>
>> Gandalf remembers the words to awaken the ithildin, and awakens the
>> signs on the door, in what is one of the most iconic LOTR visual
>> moments for me.
Definitely. And there is reason they got it right in the film. This
chapter contains two illustrations. One of the ithildin markings on the
Doors of Moria, and one of the markings on Balin's tomb. I wish Tolkien
had done more of those. :-(
And here we get lots of nice Silmarillion references again. :-)
The 'Tree of the High Elves' and the 'Star of the House of Feanor'. I
like the way that Gimli identifies the emblems of Durin, Legolas knows
enough to recognise the Tree of the High Elves (though there are two on
the illustration), while Gandalf recognises the ancient star symbol of
the House of Feanor.
Looking at the illustration, the arch has the writing translated
underneath, but does anyone know what the three other runic symbols
mean? There is one at upper left, one at upper right, and one at lower
centre.
>> There is a bunch of conversation on how to get
>> the doors open
With some nice humour. Gandalf trouncing Boromir and Pippin with barbed
comments on their foolish questions!
>> and lots of spell shouting, which takes many hours,
Hours? Are you sure?
Anyone able to translate Gandalf's first attempt (edro = open)?
Annon edhellen, edro hi ammen!
Fennas nogothrim, lasto beth lammen!
>> with Boromir throwing a stone into the pool in a fit of pique.
Did this attract the Watcher-in-the-water?
>> Frodo is sized by Something in the water. It's a
>> tentacle, which Sam frees him from by slashing it with a knife, but
>> twenty other arms come flailing out of the water!
There is a horrible stench as well! I find it difficult to imagine what
the Watcher-in-the-Water should look like, and have never been happy
with the various artistic interpretations I have seen.
>> Can you feel the weight of the darkness,
>> and the pressing down of the earth as the creature traps them inside
>> the Mines?
I had trouble really appreciating this until I was actually in a mine
one day. Going through narrow tunnels with dim lights, or turning off
the torches to see the glowing phosphoresence, I discovered that little
bit of claustrophobia that we all have. That fear of being buried alive.
The darkness closing in around you. With a palpable feeling of weight,
as you say.
>> What the creature is is never given more explanation that Gandalf's,
>> "Something has crept, or been driven out of the dark waters under the
>> mountains. There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep
>> places of the world." Foreshadowing for the Balrog, but also, what
>> IS the Watcher? Did it come out and dam the river itself to make a
>> place to live? How was it created? Do we fall back on the
>> explanation of it being a renegade Maia? Is it something bred by
>> Morgoth? What drove it out from under the mountains? The Balrog?
>> Perhaps most chilling to Gandalf, it seized Frodo first, perhaps
>> drawn by the power it feels in the Ring? Why did it wait so long to
>> attack the Company as they sat on the sides of the pool? Why did it
>> seal them into the Mines? And why did it never seal the Dwarves in?
:-0 That is 11 questions in a row!!
I just thought of it as an unexplained 'monster'. Gandalf's comment was
quite enough for me, along with his later comments about his fight with
the Balrog, something about "the world is gnawed by nameless things". I
am generally quite happy with this level of explanation, leaving things
mysteriously and horrifyingly uncertain.
As for it waiting so long, Gandalf makes a comment later that it was
sleeping. I supect that it was the "water-aspect" of the Balrog (the
Balrog being the fire aspect). And, as we all know, Gandalf and the
Balrog were old friends, so Gandalf knew that the Watcher-in-the-Water
(aka the Balrog) was sleeping, and that they had arranged for her to
seal Gandalf and the Fellowship in the Mines of Moria. Then there was a
bit of friendly fighting, and then Gandalf and the Balrog went off down
that chasm for their prearranged 'rendez-vous'!! Whips and all.
Just a crackpot theory.
<snip Moria bit>
I do have some comments on the Moria bit, but I'll have to get back to
that another time. It is getting late here.
<snip four book/film comments>
[I agreed with them, but I am a film snob. In these threads anyway!]
About the end of the chapter, it is a natural point to end the chapter,
but it is not a natural resting point for the story. You almost have to
carry on reading at that point. :-)
Christopher
--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Emma Pease
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
>> Michelle J. Haines wrote:
>>
>>> A Journey in the Dark
[snip]
> A bit further on we hear that the lake is no more than "two of three
> furlongs [across] at the widest point. How far it stretched away
> southwards they could not see..."
>
> First, how far is 2-3 furlongs? Not too much I'd guess.
8 furlongs = 1 mile
so about a quarter to a third of a mile (probably a bit over half a
kilometer)
I think the only area that still uses furlongs is horse racing.
[snip]
>>> There is a bunch of conversation on how to get
>>> the doors open
>
> With some nice humour. Gandalf trouncing Boromir and Pippin with barbed
> comments on their foolish questions!
But it is Merry who tries to figure out the deeper meaning first. I
think this is showing Merry to be a bit of a scholar.
>>> and lots of spell shouting, which takes many hours,
>
> Hours? Are you sure?
>
> Anyone able to translate Gandalf's first attempt (edro = open)?
>
> Annon edhellen, edro hi ammen!
> Fennas nogothrim, lasto beth lammen!
Annon = door
nogothrim = dwarves
lasto beth lammen! = listen to the words of my tongue
>>> with Boromir throwing a stone into the pool in a fit of pique.
>
> Did this attract the Watcher-in-the-water?
>
>>> Frodo is sized by Something in the water. It's a
>>> tentacle, which Sam frees him from by slashing it with a knife, but
>>> twenty other arms come flailing out of the water!
>
> There is a horrible stench as well! I find it difficult to imagine what
> the Watcher-in-the-Water should look like, and have never been happy
> with the various artistic interpretations I have seen.
I've always thought of it as a kraken but the company only sees the
tentacles before they flee inside.
--
\----
|\* | Emma Pease Net Spinster
|_\/ Die Luft der Freiheit weht
Dirk Thierbach
> "Michelle J. Haines" wrote:
>> In the morning, the only signs of the fight are burned trees and
>> Legolas' UNDAMAGED arrows, except for the burned one. [...] Did the
>> bodies evaporate into the ether?
That's how I interpreted it.
> If they were illusions, then Saruman could not produce the
> illusion that they killed off the Fellowship.
I think the point of such "horror-story" style illusions is that
while they're not real, their effect on the victim *is* real:
You get real wounds from those imagined attacks, and you can really
die.
- Dirk
Odysseus
>
> In article <7Hyoc.2278$ZK4.18...@news-text.cableinet.net>,
> Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
[snip]
> > A bit further on we hear that the lake is no more than "two of three
> > furlongs [across] at the widest point. How far it stretched away
> > southwards they could not see..."
> >
> > First, how far is 2-3 furlongs? Not too much I'd guess.
>
> 8 furlongs = 1 mile
>
> so about a quarter to a third of a mile (probably a bit over half a
> kilometer)
>
Right about .5 km: 440-660 yds. = 400-600 m approx.
--
Odysseus
Kristian Damm Jensen
(With a lot of unmarked snipping.)
> > Michelle J. Haines wrote:
> >
> >> A Journey in the Dark
> >> In the silence, an ominous *plop* is heard, followed by ripples on
> the lake
> >> from an unknown source. This is almost a classic horror-movie moment
> >> scene, but still manages to be chillingly disturbing.
>
> Can this be the Watcher-in-the-Water? If so, why does it wait and not
> attack now? Is it actually alerted by the crossing of the stream, or by
> something else? Did the Ring wake it up?
It is sleeping. It was woken by Boromirs stone.
> Definitely. And there is reason they got it right in the film. This
> chapter contains two illustrations. One of the ithildin markings on the
> Doors of Moria, and one of the markings on Balin's tomb. I wish Tolkien
> had done more of those. :-(
>
> And here we get lots of nice Silmarillion references again. :-)
>
> The 'Tree of the High Elves' and the 'Star of the House of Feanor'. I
> like the way that Gimli identifies the emblems of Durin, Legolas knows
> enough to recognise the Tree of the High Elves (though there are two on
> the illustration), while Gandalf recognises the ancient star symbol of
> the House of Feanor.
>
> Looking at the illustration, the arch has the writing translated
> underneath, but does anyone know what the three other runic symbols
> mean? There is one at upper left, one at upper right, and one at lower
> centre.
Refer to the appendices. It seems they are the letters numbered 3, 21
and 5 respectively, i.e. ch, r, d. Could we guess "Celebrimbor",
"eRegion", "Durin"?
> >> and lots of spell shouting, which takes many hours,
>
> Hours? Are you sure?
Long enough to make Boromir restless and irritated anyway.
Kristian
gp.skinner
> > Hours? Are you sure?
> Long enough to make Boromir restless and irritated anyway.
Half an hour then? They are trapped between the wall and the water with
wolves on the prowl in the distance, he was probably thinking hurry up you
old fool and get the door open. I'd think they were all living on their
nerves after the previous nights attack so being a bit restless and
irritated would not take long to achieve.
Graeme
Michelle J. Haines
spam...@blueyonder.co.uk says...
> <snip four book/film comments>
>
> [I agreed with them, but I am a film snob. In these threads anyway!]
That's why I put them at the end as footnotes, so those who don't
mind can have them, and those that don't can skip them easily. :)
Michelle
Flutist
John Jones
news:40A00B44...@acm.org...
> "Michelle J. Haines" wrote:
> >
> > In the morning, the only signs of the fight are burned trees and
> > Legolas' UNDAMAGED arrows, except for the burned one. No bodies, no
> > footprints, and apparently no indication the arrows killed any
> > wolves, or some of them would have been damaged. This always
> > confused me.
>
> physical and mortal. Yet the undamaged arrows clearly hints
> that they arrows had no physical effect.
The arrows would not necessarily have been damaged by killing the wargs,
only if the warg had rolled over on to the arrow, for example.
Christopher Kreuzer
> "Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:<7Hyoc.2278$ZK4.18...@news-text.cableinet.net>...
>
> (With a lot of unmarked snipping.)
Sorry. They fell on the floor. Here you go:
<snip>
<snip>
<snip>
<snip>
<snip>
<snip>
<snip>
<snip>
<snip>
<snip>
<snip>
<snip>
<snip>
<snip>
<snip>
<snip>
<snip>
<snip>
<snip>
Troels Forchhammer
"Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> enriched us with:
>> Michelle J. Haines wrote:
>>
>>> A Journey in the Dark
<snip>
>>> Aragorn reveals he's been through Moria, and really doesn't want
>>> to go back.
I have often wondered about the occasion - why did he enter Moria and
when did he do it?
Does anyone know if Tolkien ever wrote about this?
> He also warns Gandalf: "If you pass the doors of Moria, beware!"
>
> Is this Aragorn being prophetic, or is he basing his feelings on
> some actual knowledge, maybe from his previous journey into Moria?
Since both he and Gandalf have been through Moria earlier, I'd guess
that it is actual foresight. That Aragorn was thus foresighted is
stated explicitly in appendix A (the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen):
"I see," said Aragorn, "that I have turned my eyes to a
treasure no less dear than the treasure of Thingol that
Beren once desired. Such is my fate." Then suddenly the
foresight of his kindred came to him, and he said: "But
lo! Master Elrond, the years of your abiding run short at
last, and the choice must soon be laid on your children,
to part either with you or with Middle-earth."
<snip>
>>> The group camps on a hillside for protection for the night,
>>> inside a circle of stones and with a fire.
>
> Does anyone think this is some remnant of Eregion's buildings? It
> reminds me very slightly of the standing stones on the
> Barrow-downs, but maybe it is just the remnant of a watchtower,
> like on Weathertop.
I can't say that I've ever thought about it, but now that you put it on
my mind ;-)
"... about which lay a broken circle of boulder stones."
I'm not entirely sure if "boulder stones" could have been used in
building - my dictionary gives two possible translations to Danish, one
of which is also used for the very roughly shaped (or carefully
selected) stones (granite mostly) used for the foundation of many very
old buildings in Denmark (notably churches), while I find it difficult
to believe that the other could be used as building material.
Accepting for the moment the translation that lends itself well to
building, I'd say that the broken circle of stones does sound like the
last remnant of the ruin after an old tower (or other round
construction). Towers seem to be quite popular in Middle-earth (from
Tirion to Barad-dűr we see towers everywhere).
> For me, it increased my respect for Legolas. His character is
> developing slowly but surely. We have already had the comments in
> the snow, and the comments about the long-lost Elves of Eregion.
Legolas' comment refers to the stones, "/deep they delved us, fair they
wrought us, high they builded us;/" how does that relate to the "broken
circle of boulder stones" above?
<snip>
>>> In the morning, the only signs of the fight are burned trees and
>>> Legolas' UNDAMAGED arrows, except for the burned one. No
>>> bodies, no footprints, and apparently no indication the arrows
>>> killed any wolves, or some of them would have been damaged.
>
> I always assumed the arrows did their damage without getting
> damaged.
Indeed. Arrows don't usually break just by hitting an animal, and re-
using spent arrows was quite common (and still is, though of course
most hunting arrows today have metal shafts, and arrows for war are not
common anymore). At Helm's Deep Legolas use spent arrows, "... though
now I must grope for spent arrows; all mine are gone."
It is, perhaps, a bit surprising that none of the wargs fell in such a
way that the shaft broke, but most of them would probably be buried
quite deep in the body (if they didn't go right through).
The arrows did, however, kill the wargs, and we hear that Boromir hewed
the head of one, so I'm convinced that the wargs were corporeal at the
attack (they also had both throat and heart).
> And I ascribed the disappearance of the bodies to 'magic'. I never
> really thought about it further and just accepted it.
It does seem that the bodies somehow evaporate or disintegrate. I
haven't thought more about it either - just accepted that these were,
as Gandalf notes, "no ordinary wolves."
<snip>
>>> In the silence, an ominous *plop* is heard, followed by ripples
>>> on the lake from an unknown source.
>
> Can this be the Watcher-in-the-Water?
I'd almost say that it has to be.
> If so, why does it wait and not attack now?
Gimli speculates that the Watcher was "sleeping down at the southern
end." Possibly the "swish followed by a plop" is the Watcher wakening,
but, as it happened as Sam was leading Bill "up on to the dry ground on
the far side" it didn't waken quickly enough to know exactly where they
were.
> Is it actually alerted by the crossing of the stream, or by
> something else? Did the Ring wake it up?
Good question. Venturing a speculative guess, I'd say that it was
wakened by the crossing and only felt the Ring whan it was awake. The
Ring by itself ought, I think, to have awakened it earlier.
>>> This is almost a classic horror-movie moment scene, but still
>>> manages to be chillingly disturbing.
Tolkien was not above using such effects, though I suppose that he and
the horror films have them from the same sources. It was mentioned also
during the discussion of I,8 'Fog on the Barrow-Downs' and I'd also put
Baldor's skeleton and the whispers of the dead in V,2 'The Passing of
the Grey Company' among these examples, though the written description,
playing on Gimli's fears, is more effectful for me than the
visualisation in the film.
<snip>
> Looking at the illustration, the arch has the writing translated
> underneath, but does anyone know what the three other runic
> symbols mean? There is one at upper left, one at upper right, and
> one at lower centre.
A footnote
" The inscription on the West-gate of Moria gives an example
of a mode, used for the spelling of Sindarin, in which Grade
6 represented the simple nasals; but Grade 5 represented the
double or long nasals much used in Sindarin: 17 = nn, but
21 = n."
Noldor? Narvi?
If, as Kristian guesses, the upper right (5 = 'ch') is for Celebrimbor,
then the natural guess would, IMO, be "Narvi", which, to me, would make
3 = 'd' for Durin even more sensible, as the three individual letters
would then represent all three personal names in the full text.
>>> with Boromir throwing a stone into the pool in a fit of pique.
>
> Did this attract the Watcher-in-the-water?
Frodo is at least afraid that it disturbs something. I have always
assumed that Boromir's stone did attract the (now fully awake) Watcher.
"The stone vanished with a soft slap; but at the same instant
there was a swish and a bubble. Great rippling rings formed
on the surface out beyond where the stone had fallen, and
they moved slowly towards the foot of the cliff."
I think that this means that the stone did attract the Watcher's
attention.
> There is a horrible stench as well! I find it difficult to imagine
> what the Watcher-in-the-Water should look like, and have never
> been happy with the various artistic interpretations I have seen.
The real beauty of it is that we, and supposedly the party as well,
never see anything but the tentacles. There is no gaping moth, no beak
or forest of sharp teeth or any other classic horror descriptions -
just a lot of tentacles "all guided by one purpose."
As with other of these horrifying moments Tolkien creates the suspense
by letting us inside the mind of the story-internal narrator (here it's
Frodo and Sam, and on the Paths of the Dead it's Gimli). An option
which (unfortunately) isn't available to the same effect in a painting
or a film.
>>> Can you feel the weight of the darkness, and the pressing down
>>> of the earth as the creature traps them inside the Mines?
>
[...]
> That fear of being buried alive. The darkness closing in around
> you. With a palpable feeling of weight, as you say.
I've never been in a mine or cave without proper lighting, but even
then, with the roof closing in above you and side passages leading from
light to darkness, and further into complete blackness, one can still
get that feeling of an immeasurable weight pressing one down.
<snipping and rearranging>
>>> what IS the Watcher? [...] How was it created? Do we fall back
>>> on the explanation of it being a renegade Maia? Is it something
>>> bred by Morgoth?
>
> I just thought of it as an unexplained 'monster'.
[...]
> leaving things mysteriously and horrifyingly uncertain.
Why not see if we can do some constructive speculation ;-)
We know next to nothing about the Watcher, which of course makes it
difficult. It was apparently attracted to the Ring, which might suggest
that it has some power of its own - there is, IIRC, no suggestion that
normal animals were affected by the presence of the Ring, and to
"servants of Mordor" it was "a hidden power, a cowing menace ..." as
Sam learned in the tower of Cirith Ungol.
That leaves us with monsters of the Shelob kind and incarnate spirits
(that is - could Morgoth have bred something akin to the fell beasts
the Nazgűl ride in the air, just far more powerful?)
I'm not going to choose or state a preference among those (because I
have no preference), but I do think that this covers the possibilities.
Whatever it was, however, I suspect that it was indeed connected with
Morgoth - bred by him or incarnated by him or at hiw wish.
>>> Did it come out and dam the river itself to make a place to
>>> live? What drove it out from under the mountains? The
>>> Balrog?
That is my guess, though I can't explain why.
In addition to being driven out by some foe, it might also have come
out in search for prey.
>>> Perhaps most chilling to Gandalf, it seized Frodo first, perhaps
>>> drawn by the power it feels in the Ring?
I think that that is the inference we're supposed to make (it is
another of these rare insights into Gandalf's thoughts - did he tell
this to Frodo later or how did this, within the narrative conceit of
the book, come about?)
>>> Why did it wait so long to attack the Company as they sat on the
>>> sides of the pool? Why did it seal them into the Mines? And
>>> why did it never seal the Dwarves in?
>
> As for it waiting so long, Gandalf makes a comment later that it
> was sleeping.
Pure idle speculation:
If it awoke when the were crossing the pool, as suggested above, it
might have been unaware of what had awoken it until Boromir tossed the
stone into the pool. At that point it pinpointed the party, and drawing
nearer it felt the power of the Ring.
> I supect that it was the "water-aspect" of the Balrog (the Balrog
> being the fire aspect).
I think the implication is that it was Pippin's stone in the well that
alerted the Orcs and the Balrog - why else were they not attacked much
earlier during their journey through Moria?
> And, as we all know, Gandalf and the Balrog were old friends,
???
What's this - Gandalf express something that I take as surprise when he
learned that his foe was a Balrog.
<snip>
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is <t.forch(a)mail.dk>
"What're quantum mechanics?"
"I don't know. People who repair quantums, I suppose."
- (Terry Pratchett, Eric)
Andy Cooke
>>Michelle J. Haines wrote:
>>
>>
[snip]
>
>>>The group camps on a hillside for protection for the night, inside a
>>>circle of stones and with a fire.
>
>
> Does anyone think this is some remnant of Eregion's buildings? It
> reminds me very slightly of the standing stones on the Barrow-downs, but
> maybe it is just the remnant of a watchtower, like on Weathertop.
Hadn't thought of that - makes sense. Also, it adds to the feeling of
the age and loss of the country of Eregion.
[snip]
>
> [moving on to the Sirannon]
>
>
>>>It's not until recently, when the passage "had filled all the
>>>valley" leaped out at me, when I finally got a better mental grasp on
>>>just how big the body of water was.
>
>
> A bit further on we hear that the lake is no more than "two of three
> furlongs [across] at the widest point. How far it stretched away
> southwards they could not see..."
>
> First, how far is 2-3 furlongs? Not too much I'd guess.
About a quarter of a mile.
(12 inches to a foot.
3 feet to a yard
22 yards to a chain
10 chains to a furlong
8 furlongs to a mile
3 miles to a league.)
[snip]
>
> Anyone able to translate Gandalf's first attempt (edro = open)?
>
> Annon edhellen, edro hi ammen!
> Fennas nogothrim, lasto beth lammen!
I got most of the way (Gate of the Elves, open [something something]/
[threshold?] of the Dwarf-folk, listen to the word of my tongue) before
I cheated and looked on Ardalambion
( http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/sindarin.htm )
"Elvish gate open now for us; doorway of the Dwarf-folk listen to the
word of my tongue"
>>>with Boromir throwing a stone into the pool in a fit of pique.
>
>
> Did this attract the Watcher-in-the-water?
>
I've always assumed so.
[snip]
>
>>>Can you feel the weight of the darkness,
>>>and the pressing down of the earth as the creature traps them inside
>>>the Mines?
>
>
> I had trouble really appreciating this until I was actually in a mine
> one day. Going through narrow tunnels with dim lights, or turning off
> the torches to see the glowing phosphoresence, I discovered that little
> bit of claustrophobia that we all have. That fear of being buried alive.
> The darkness closing in around you. With a palpable feeling of weight,
> as you say.
>
The same here - except that mine was a cave system.
I'd never before appreciated having a visible level surface without huge
holes on which to walk ...
[snip]
--
Andy Cooke
Christopher Kreuzer
> "Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> enriched us with:
<snip>
[Aragorn's words to Gandalf before entering Moria]
>> He also warns Gandalf: "If you pass the doors of Moria, beware!"
>>
>> Is this Aragorn being prophetic, or is he basing his feelings on
>> some actual knowledge, maybe from his previous journey into Moria?
>
> Since both he and Gandalf have been through Moria earlier, I'd guess
> that it is actual foresight. That Aragorn was thus foresighted is
> stated explicitly in appendix A (the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen):
<snip>
And the reference to the foresight of his kindred relates nicely back to
Elrond, who is a distant uncle of some kind, and who also displays much
foresight, as I have been learning in these threads.
>>> Michelle J. Haines wrote:
>>>> The group camps on a hillside for protection for the night,
>>>> inside a circle of stones and with a fire.
>>
>> Does anyone think this is some remnant of Eregion's buildings? It
>> reminds me very slightly of the standing stones on the
>> Barrow-downs, but maybe it is just the remnant of a watchtower,
>> like on Weathertop.
>
> I can't say that I've ever thought about it, but now that you put it
> on my mind ;-)
>
> "... about which lay a broken circle of boulder stones."
>
> I'm not entirely sure if "boulder stones" could have been used in
> building - my dictionary gives two possible translations to Danish,
> one of which is also used for the very roughly shaped (or carefully
> selected) stones (granite mostly) used for the foundation of many very
> old buildings in Denmark (notably churches), while I find it difficult
> to believe that the other could be used as building material.
I find 'boulder stones' to be a strange word construction. Buildings can
be made of stone, which in that sense would normally refer to rock
quarried and shaped for use when building (eg. limestone).
Stone is also used to mean a small, eroded piece of rock, larger than a
pebble, but smaller than a boulder. Maybe Tolkien meant rocks of sizes
ranging between stones and boulders in size.
> Accepting for the moment the translation that lends itself well to
> building, I'd say that the broken circle of stones does sound like the
> last remnant of the ruin after an old tower (or other round
> construction). Towers seem to be quite popular in Middle-earth (from
> Tirion to Barad-dūr we see towers everywhere).
It is the 'circle' bit that makes me think it is a building or circle of
standing stones. Unless someone can come up with a geological reason for
such a structure, or another reason for anyone to pile the stones there,
then I think it is a ruin.
>> For me, it increased my respect for Legolas. His character is
>> developing slowly but surely. We have already had the comments in
>> the snow, and the comments about the long-lost Elves of Eregion.
>
> Legolas' comment refers to the stones, "/deep they delved us, fair
> they wrought us, high they builded us;/" how does that relate to the
> "broken circle of boulder stones" above?
It doesn't. Though it was of that that I was thinking when I thought of
the circle of stones as being part of a ruin. Looking back at the
original post, I was referring to this comment from Michelle:
>>> The wolf, not taking any crap from any wizards, jumps at Gandalf, to
>>> be immediately downed by an arrow from Legolas. I was always a
>>> little disappointed by this, and felt it took some of the teeth out
>>> of Gandalf's threat.
>>
>> For me, it increased my respect for Legolas. His character is
>> developing slowly but surely. We have already had the comments in
>> the snow, and the comments about the long-lost Elves of Eregion.
And my reference to the Eregion elves passage was an example of Legolas
getting to say or do something.
<snip>
>> Looking at the illustration, the arch has the writing translated
>> underneath, but does anyone know what the three other runic
>> symbols mean? There is one at upper left, one at upper right, and
>> one at lower centre.
>
> A footnote
It is footnote 9 from Appendix E - Writing and Spelling (II - Writing).
Thanks for digging this out. It had never registered with me. That
appendix is one that I have probably only ever read once!!
> " The inscription on the West-gate of Moria gives an example
> of a mode, used for the spelling of Sindarin, in which Grade
> 6 represented the simple nasals; but Grade 5 represented the
> double or long nasals much used in Sindarin: 17 = nn, but
> 21 = n."
The translation below the illustration says it is the 'mode of
Beleriand'. Does that help at all? My linguistic skills are practically
non-existant!
<snip>
<reinsert passage from earlier>
>>> In the silence, an ominous plop is heard, followed by ripples on the
lake
>>> from an unknown source.
>>>> with Boromir throwing a stone into the pool in a fit of pique.
>>
>> Did this attract the Watcher-in-the-water?
>
> Frodo is at least afraid that it disturbs something. I have always
> assumed that Boromir's stone did attract the (now fully awake)
> Watcher.
I like the sequence of events you speculate on.
> "The stone vanished with a soft slap; but at the same instant
> there was a swish and a bubble. Great rippling rings formed
> on the surface out beyond where the stone had fallen, and
> they moved slowly towards the foot of the cliff."
>
> I think that this means that the stone did attract the Watcher's
> attention.
I had completely missed the word 'beyond' in that quote. I always
thought that the stone that Boromir threw had created _all_ the ripples
that are mentioned. Now that I am reading the passage properly, I am
thinking <eek! there is something else out there!!>, those ripples are
_not_ from the stone. The rings of ripples from a stone would not form
_beyond_ where it hits the water, they would form _around_ it, with part
(half in fact) of the ripples being beyond the point of impact.
I am now also thinking why the Fellowship did not realise this. I am
also thinking that there is a link between the first 'plop' and
'ripples' when they cross that stream, and the 'swish and bubble' from
the later passage.
A few moments later we are told: "The ripples on the water grew and came
closer, some were already lapping on the shore."
If this was the ripples from the stone, it is the rings that would be
getting larger, not the ripples. I realise that the 'ripples' might be a
shorthand for 'rippling rings' (not *another* degenerate simile...), but
I like the idea that the Fellowship, like me, were fooled into thinking
that the ripples were from the stone.
I think these ripples are a sign that something is moving towards the
Fellowship from the southern end of the lake. And Gandalf is sitting
there deep in thought. Luckily he is just about to remember the Elvish
word for friend!
<snip>
[Watcher-in-the-water speculation]
> That leaves us with monsters of the Shelob kind and incarnate spirits
> (that is - could Morgoth have bred something akin to the fell beasts
> the Nazgūl ride in the air, just far more powerful?)
I would vote for that.
<snip>
>> As for it waiting so long, Gandalf makes a comment later that it
>> was sleeping.
Oops. I should have said Gimli, here. :-)
<snip>
>> I supect that it was the "water-aspect" of the Balrog (the Balrog
>> being the fire aspect).
I just read that somewhere. Strange theory.
<snip>
>> And, as we all know, Gandalf and the Balrog were old friends,
>
> ???
>
> What's this - Gandalf express something that I take as surprise when
> he learned that his foe was a Balrog.
Sorry. It was a tongue-in-cheek spoof. I was letting my imagination run
wild. One day I'll publish on a webpage my idle speculations concerning
Melian... :-)
Belba Grubb from Stock
<mha...@io.nanc.com> wrote:
>A Journey in the Dark
>
>We return to Our Heros in the evening, after their retreat from
>Caradhas. Gandalf gives everyone a shot of miruvor, they have some
>dinner, and sit down to decide what to do next.
Just as a general note, miruvor and the liquor Glorfindel gave the
hobbits to help them on their way to the Ford seem to be two different
drinks; the former was "clear as spring water and had no taste, and it
did not feel either cool or warm in the mouth," perhaps similar to
what Gildor's people put in the bottles of Frodo, Sam and Pippin,
while the former was a "warm and fragrant liquor."
>Gandalf comments that their choices are to go on, or to go back to
>Rivendell. A bit of belaboring the obvious there, I think. What
>would their third choice be? Flap their arms and fly to the moon?
Well, it follows immediately that description at the end of the last
chapter:
A cold wind flowed down behind them, as they turned their
backs on the Redhorn Gate, and stumbled wearily down the
slope. Caradhras had defeated them.
A very heavy blow to their morale that made going on much more
difficult. Of course they would want to go back to Rivendell, but
Frodo sees the dark side of that, and Gandalf quickly jumps in to
reaffirm that, saying that Rivendell would be defeated and the
Ringwraiths would grow much greater in power; Frodo then says that
they must go on, if there is a way.
One of the few times where we see Frodo as the active director of the
Company (aided and perhaps manipulated a little bit by Gandalf).
>the Battle of Five Armies as having significantly reduced the Orc
>population, and that Moria may not be repopulated at this point. He
>then throws in a reference to to Balin and Company, but from the
>various reactions of the company and even Gandalf's late reference to
>them, you certainly get the feeling that no one expects to find them
>alive.
I think he mentioned them just to fire up Gimli and gain the active
support of at least one member of the Company.
'Good, Gilmi!' said Gandalf. 'You encourage me. We will seek
the hidden doors together...'
So now the company has to vote against two, if they decide not to go
to Moria, which is much more difficult than saying no to just one
individual. More manipulation, although with the best intention. And
yet they do all say they don't want to go, even Frodo although he
qualifies it by trying to put off the decision until morning
(interestiing contrast with his previous decisiveness).
>Aragorn reveals he's been through Moria, and really doesn't want to
>go back.
Perhaps this has been discussed elsewhere, but does anyone have any
idea why he went into Moria in the first place?
>The night breaks out in howling as wolves prepare to attack, and
>Boromir immediate pipes up, "How far to Moria?" *snicker*
I always liked that, too. :-)
>In the morning, the only signs of the fight are burned trees and
>Legolas' UNDAMAGED arrows, except for the burned one. No bodies, no
>footprints, and apparently no indication the arrows killed any
>wolves, or some of them would have been damaged. This always
>confused me. Are we to think the wolves dragged off their dead in
>the middle of the night, even those that were killed in the middle of
>the circle? And how or why would the wolves removed the arrows from
>the bodies of their comrades first? Did the bodies evaporate into
>the ether? Why are none of the arrows damaged? Was this somehow not
>a real fight, but some illusion conjured up by Sauron or Saruman? Is
>this ever explained?
This is fairyland, where you can have real fights with insubstantial
(spectral) beings who can kill you or worse, and/or do all sorts of
horrible things to you that have a lasting effect, but cannot
themselves be touched unless you know "The Magic Spell."
The really interesting part here is that JRRT leaves it up in the air
(no pun intended) as to whether Gandalf's incantation drove out the
spectral wolves or if they disappeared because dawn had come. I think
he's laying the groundwork here for what will culminate in Gandalf's
display of tremendous power on the Bridge, in which he breaks his own
staff, and his almost simultaneous fall into the chasm with the
Balrog.
As for the wolves, I think they were exactly what Gandalf called them,
"hounds of Sauron," and their appearance was triggered by the attempt
to cross the pass. The crebain in the previous chapter most likely
served Saruman, as they came from Fangorn and Dunland, but these
couldn't have seen the Company as they came down from the pass because
they were below the Company and couldn't look it (without flying
upside down).
A case could be made from various hints that Sauron was at least in
cahoots with whatever evil spirit infested Caradhras, although it's
never proven convincingly that he actually caused the blizzard that
defeated the Company, and was thus made aware of the Company's
location by their attempt at the pass, and this may have somehow
triggered the immediate appearance of the spectral "hounds of Sauron"
that night.
Good contrast in capabilities there: Saruman has mere crows to do his
bidding, but Sauron, much further away ("300 leagues away," we're told
in the last chapter) has the territory covered with mountain spirits
and demon wolves. Don't mess with Sauron; oh, but they have to, don't
they. Hmmm.... (hook)
>Gandalf tells everyone to get ready to go into Moria while he
>searches for the door, and Sam finally finds out the plan to leave
>Bill at the door. He is understandably upset, but Gandalf blesses
>the pony, and they have hope he'll find his way back to Rivendell.
Just now, in reading the last chapter and this one for the discussion,
it struck me how thoroughly Sam is being set up for his eventual role
toward the end of the quest. In the last chapter, he's going through
the items in his pack, including "his chief treasure, his cooking
gear," which he will later throw away on Gorgoroth. Then when the
weather first clears and he gets a look at the Mountains of Moria, he
mentions to Frodo that he thinks it's about time that they "saw the
end of the Road, so to speak." This compares to him rejecting the
arguments of despair and continuing on like an unbeatable,
unquenchable spirit as they approach the actual end of the quest. And
here at the gate of Moria, we see the very first choice of Master
Samwise: "...I had to choose, Mr. Frodo. I had to come with you."
Missed that, all these years. These chapter of the week discussions
are wonderful. And what an excellent writer JRRT was!
>Moria is not in good repair, and there are fissures and chasms in the
>walls and floors, with the occasionally huge gap in the middle of
>their road. Sam bemoans the lack of rope. But seriously, why on
>EARTH would anyone have a three-and-a-half foot hobbit broad jump a
>seven foot gap, with a slip meaning a fall to the death, when you
>have to good-sized Men who could easily pick him up and TOSS him
>over? Being absolutely terrified of heights, I had a significant
>amount of empathy for Pippin, trembling on the edge of a gap while
>summoning up the courage to jump it, when the obvious solution was
>right there.[3]
Another character rant (g). This is the famous "fool of a Took"
chapter, but Pippin's starting to really shine forth in these recent
chapters. He stood up to Elrond in Rivendell and won a place in the
Fellowship for himself and Merry, with Gandalf's unexpected support.
He does have a moment of woeful shivering and whining on Caradhras
(well, maybe not exactly whining when you consider the hobbits were
barefoot in a mountain blizzard, the likes of which they'd never seen
before, at midnight), but he stands up to a grouchy Gandalf in front
of the doors of Moria and gets away with it. Having to wait a bit to
summon up courage and then successfully jumping the seven-foot gap
(equivalent to a 14-foot gap for one of us...in the dark) fits in with
the general picture of another hobbit starting to react and grow in
response to the stresses of the journey, but in a different direction
from the ones Sam and Frodo are taking.
So, we have Frodo being decisive one moment and then in the next
moment wanting to put off a decision until morning, i.e., a little
overwhelmed by his situation and trying to live up to his given word
while still scared inside; Sam still very much attached to his small
view of things and yet starting to make some hard choices based on his
love of his master; Pippin scared but starting to toughen up (whereas
before he just wanted to show Strider that he was tough when he really
didn't feel that way inside). And Merry? He's awfully quiet. In the
last chapter, he was jesting with Strider about missing the East Wind,
which seems to show him as not quite "with the program" yet, although
at that point all of them were being careless, except Aragorn. Yet I
wonder if Merry is so quiet because he's still attached to the Shire
and not really ready to cope with the outside world. Does he feel as
if he's in the "deep water" he mentioned in Bree and dreamed about in
Bombadil's house?
>Gandalf makes his choice, and they journey on to find themselves in a
>great chasm. Gandalf makes an interesting comment; "We are coming
>now to the habitable parts, and I guess now that we are not far from
>the eastern side." The habitable parts? So, the Dwarves lived on
>the eastern side of Moria, and the western side was all mining and
>work? The door out the western side must have been the back door, so
>to speak?
Well, the mithril lodes, we're told lead north and down into darkness.
? the southern regions of Moria. The western doors were used for
contact with the Elves of Eregion. I wonder if the western halls then
were more of a "public" part of Moria, sort of like a market area,
whereas at least some of the eastern side (perhaps above the Gate) was
where the dwarves, who are certainly a private people, had their
living quarters.
Gimli supposes there were guards at the junction of the three halls.
What need would there have been for guards so deep in Moria? Perhaps
that marked the end of the "public" area and the beginning of the
private area, coming from west to east?
>They wake, and Gandalf decides to look about the hall before deciding
>which way to go. They find a large square room, containing the tomb
>of Balin, son of Fundin, Lord of Moria. The effort to take back
>Moria indeed failed, and the chapter ends in gloom and grieving.
...the composition of "The Lord of the Rings" went on at
intervals during the years 1936 to 1949, a period in which I
had many duties that I did not neglect, and many other'
interests as a learner and teacher that often absorbed me.
The delay was, of course, also increased by the outbreak of
war in 1939, by the end of which year the tale had not yet
reached the end of Book I. In spite of the darkness of the
next five years I found that the story could not now be wholly
abandoned, and I plodded on, mostly by night, till I stood by
Balin's tomb in Moria. There I halted for a long while. It
was almost a year later when I went on...
-- from the Foreword to the second edition
I'm so glad he didn't give up.
Barb
Count Menelvagor
> As for it waiting so long, Gandalf makes a comment later that it was
> sleeping. I supect that it was the "water-aspect" of the Balrog (the
> Balrog being the fire aspect). And, as we all know, Gandalf and the
> Balrog were old friends, so Gandalf knew that the Watcher-in-the-Water
> (aka the Balrog) was sleeping, and that they had arranged for her to
> seal Gandalf and the Fellowship in the Mines of Moria. Then there was a
> bit of friendly fighting, and then Gandalf and the Balrog went off down
> that chasm for their prearranged 'rendez-vous'!! Whips and all.
What a disgusting notion! No Rog wd be so sick as to do it with
Gandalf or any wizard; not even the harlot #$*##*$@**@$&#&$*#$*@$@$.
And in answer to the question about what the Watcher is: the Watcher
is a brilliant conversationalist and a bon vivant of impeccable taste.
Jette Goldie
"Troels Forchhammer" <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote in message
news:Xns94E8F3126F...@62.243.74.163...
> In message <news:7Hyoc.2278$ZK4.18...@news-text.cableinet.net>
> "Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> enriched us with:
> >
> > And I ascribed the disappearance of the bodies to 'magic'. I never
> > really thought about it further and just accepted it.
>
> It does seem that the bodies somehow evaporate or disintegrate. I
> haven't thought more about it either - just accepted that these were,
> as Gandalf notes, "no ordinary wolves."
I always read it as proof of the intelligence of the wargs - they
dragged their own dead and wounded away (though probably
to eat them rather than to give them medical aid or a decent
burial)
--
Jette Goldie
je...@blueyonder.co.uk
"If you don't care where you are, then you aren't lost"
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
Een Wilde Ier
> "Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message news:<7Hyoc.2278$ZK4.18...@news-text.cableinet.net>...
> And in answer to the question about what the Watcher is: the Watcher
> is a brilliant conversationalist and a bon vivant of impeccable taste.
LOL!
Jim Deutch
<spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>> Michelle J Haines <mha...@io.nanc.com> wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>>> The Wargs run off, but regroup to attack later in the night
>
><snip>
>
>>> Was this somehow not a real fight, but some illusion conjured
>>> up by Sauron or Saruman? Is this ever explained?
>
>Not Saruman. There is a reference to 'Hound of Sauron'.
This is at least the third assertion in this thread that Gandalf's
words -- "Hound of Sauron" -- eliminate the possibilty that Saruman
sent the ghost-Wargs, but I wonder. Couldn't Gandalf have been
mistaken? Or speaking metaphorically? He didn't necessarily mean
that _these_ particular Wargs were _in this instance_ under the
command of Sauron. Or so it seems to me...
Jim Deutch (Jimbo the Cat)
--
"The unexamined code is not worth shipping." - Brian Caufield
Jim Deutch
<Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
>In message <news:7Hyoc.2278$ZK4.18...@news-text.cableinet.net>
>"Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> enriched us with:
>> There is a horrible stench as well! I find it difficult to imagine
>> what the Watcher-in-the-Water should look like, and have never
>> been happy with the various artistic interpretations I have seen.
>
>The real beauty of it is that we, and supposedly the party as well,
>never see anything but the tentacles. There is no gaping moth, no beak
>or forest of sharp teeth or any other classic horror descriptions -
>just a lot of tentacles "all guided by one purpose."
obOTFiction: Mieville's _Perdido Street Station_. Gaping moths,
indeed!
Jim Deutch (Jimbo the Cat)
--
Cthulhu for President!
Why vote for a lesser evil?
Henriette
> On Mon, 10 May 2004 09:06:01 -0600,
> > feeling evil following and evil ahead. At this point, he's also
> > starting to hear the soft echo of Gollum's footsteps, who has found
> > the Company and is now trailing them.
>
> I wonder here whether this effect is due to Gollum, the Balrog or something
> else.
IMO the presence of the Balrog and the tension of evil following and
evil ahead, which weakens Frodo. If it was due to Gollum, the Ring
would have been heavy almost from the beginning up till the end of the
journey...
Henriette
Michelle J. Haines
j...@blueyonder.com.uk says...
>
> I always read it as proof of the intelligence of the wargs - they
> dragged their own dead and wounded away (though probably
> to eat them rather than to give them medical aid or a decent
> burial)
How'd they get the ones inside the circle of boulders without the
company knowing about it?
I suppose they could have pitched the bodies of the wolves outside
themselves.
Shanahan
>> "Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> Michelle J Haines <mha...@io.nanc.com> wrote:
>><snip>
>>>> The Wargs run off, but regroup to attack later in the night
>><snip>
>>>> Was this somehow not a real fight, but some illusion conjured
>>>> up by Sauron or Saruman? Is this ever explained?
>>
>>Not Saruman. There is a reference to 'Hound of Sauron'.
>
> This is at least the third assertion in this thread that
> Gandalf's words -- "Hound of Sauron" -- eliminate the
> possibilty that Saruman sent the ghost-Wargs, but I wonder.
> Couldn't Gandalf have been mistaken? Or speaking
> metaphorically? He didn't necessarily mean that _these_
> particular Wargs were _in this instance_ under the command of
> Sauron. Or so it seems to me...
I agree; it was metaphorical. Sauron has always been lord of
werewolves, as his dominion has always been that of torment.
Gandalf's words don't solve the question.
Does it have to be an either/or question as to who sent the Wargs?
Why not part of S&S's wobbly "alliance"? Maybe one of them had a
Grishnakh-like mole in place in the Warg pack. Maybe the Warg
packs were under no one's direct control, and S&S just hoped
they'd kill everything that got in their way.
- Ciaran S.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Well Jimmy played harmonica in the pub where I was born
he played it from the nighttime til the peaceful early morn
he soothed the souls of psychos and the men who had the horn
and they all looked very happy in the morning
Igenlode
> A Journey in the Dark
>
[snip]
> The night breaks out in howling as wolves prepare to attack, and Boromir
> immediately pipes up, "How far to Moria?" *snicker*
I like the way Aragorn and Boromir trade (or coin?) proverbs: 'The wolf
that one hears is worse than the orc that one fears', 'Where the warg
howls, there the orc prowls' - as Bilbo and the dwarves learned to
their cost!
[snip]
> In a scene somewhat reminiscent of
> the one in The Hobbit, Gandalf lights the trees of the hilltop on
> fire, Legolas' last arrow catches fire as it "plunged burning into
> the heart of the great wolf-chieftain" and the rest of the wolves
> skedaddle post-haste.
I must say I've never been quite sure *why* setting the trees on fire
above their own heads defeated the wolves on the ground. In the case of
'The Hobbit', the dwarves were up the trees and Gandalf was throwing
lighted pine cones down to singe the wolves' coats; but in this case,
the only people who could be threatened by the fire are those standing
directly under it, namely Gandalf and his companions!
[snip]
> Gandalf's only comment was he feared the wolves were not ordinary,
> and after breakfast, off they go on their journey to Moria.
I note the description of the weather change here: 'almost as if it was
at the command of some power that had no longer any use for snow, since
they had retreated from the pass, a power that wished now to have a
clear light in which things that moved in the wild could be seen from
far away.' While Tolkien is hedging - 'almost as if' - this does tend
to suggest, sadly, that Sauron and not the mountain Caradhras was
responsible for the unseasonable weather of the previous night. (Sadly,
because I prefer the concept of a world with individual malign or
benevolent powers, rather than one great fated plan.)
[snip]
> There is a bunch of conversation on how to get
> the doors open, and lots of spell shouting, which takes many hours,
> with Boromir throwing a stone into the pool in a fit of pique.
I like Gandalf's own fit of pique - shouting every word he can think of,
throwing his staff down onto the ground and sitting down :-) Reminds me
of John McEnroe...
[snip]
> Gandalf makes his choice, and they journey on to find themselves in a
> great chasm. Gandalf makes an interesting comment; "We are coming
> now to the habitable parts, and I guess now that we are not far from
> the eastern side."
I was a little bemused by the statement that 'since the dwarves fled',
the deep treasuries and shafts are flooded. Obviously they weren't
flooded when they were in use - so presumably the dwarves had some kind
of pumping operation going on, like the great beam engines that drained
the mines in Cornwall? This seems very high-tech for Tolkien.
> The habitable parts? So, the Dwarves lived on
> the eastern side of Moria, and the western side was all mining and
> work? The door out the western side must have been the back door, so
> to speak?
The trade entrance :-)
>
> The group stops for the night in the hall, with Gimli singing a song
> about Khazad-dum and Durin, and Gandalf explaining the value of
> mithril, and dropping the bomb that Bilbo's mithril shirt was worth
> more than the entire Shire.
When Gandalf mentions that the mithril-lodes disappear downwards under
Caradhras, since this is evidently where the Balrog was buried I did
wonder whether, in ages past, it might have been the unseen aura of
Durin's Bane that first gave the mountain its bad name. But I wouldn't
have thought that just having an evil Maia in the area would have been
enough to trigger 'coincidental' landslides, localised snow-drifts,
fogs that trick travellers over precipices, or whatever malign events a
mountain can produce to gain the sobriquet of 'the Cruel'...
Also, what does Sauron *do* with mithril? Does he just hoard it in
heaps like dragon's gold? I don't think that we ever learn that he
employs it for magical purposes, although one might think that the
Ringwraiths, for example, could be arrayed in Moria-silver, or it could
have been woven into the bindings of the great ram Grond.
--
Igenlode <Igenl...@nym.alias.net> Bookwraith unabashed
its: belonging to it - it's: "it is" (contraction )
Igenlode
[snip]
> So, we have Frodo being decisive one moment and then in the next
> moment wanting to put off a decision until morning, i.e., a little
> overwhelmed by his situation and trying to live up to his given word
> while still scared inside;
[snip]
I interpret this in the same way as his later temporising at Sarn
Gebir; he knows what he's going to have to do, but he's unhappy enough
about it that he wants to avoid having to argue the others into it
himself. It's one thing to do something *you* don't want to do, but
it's another to have to make the case for other people to do something
they don't want to do when if truth be told you feel much the same way
yourself...
He specifically says that Gandalf will find it easier to get votes in
favour of Moria in the daylight. In other words, he's already decided
which 'side' he is supporting, and the delay is designed to reduce the
amount of extra convincing that has to be done in order to get that
outcome!
Incidentally, who dammed the Sirannon, and when? Was it done as part of
the attack on Balin's group?
--
Igenlode <Igenl...@nym.alias.net> Bookwraith unabashed
* Ain't never gonna stop the rain by complainin'... *
Henriette
> > He also warns Gandalf: "If you pass the doors of Moria, beware!"
> >
> > Is this Aragorn being prophetic, or is he basing his feelings on
> > some actual knowledge, maybe from his previous journey into Moria?
>
> Since both he and Gandalf have been through Moria earlier, I'd guess
> that it is actual foresight. That Aragorn was thus foresighted is
> stated explicitly in appendix A (the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen):
> (snip)
Foresight can also be deriven from what it says in Chapter 4:"If you
pass the doors of Moria, beware!" "Let the guide [Gandalf] go first
while you have one". "He will lead us out again, at whatever cost to
himself".
Henriette
Henriette
> And in answer to the question about what the Watcher is: the Watcher
> is a brilliant conversationalist and a bon vivant of impeccable taste.
So you say. But rumour has it, that in the night he sometimes throws
parties, which are said to be visited by a.o. a Mr. P. Roghater. And
we all know that if that proved to be true, and even in Water there is
no smoke without fire, we can no longer speak of 'impeccable taste' in
relation to the Watcher.
Henriette
Troels Forchhammer
Michelle J. Haines <mha...@io.nanc.com> enriched us with:
>
> In article <1X6pc.3775$Ku.35...@news-text.cableinet.net>,
> j...@blueyonder.com.uk says...
>>
>> I always read it as proof of the intelligence of the wargs - they
>> dragged their own dead and wounded away
>
> How'd they get the ones inside the circle of boulders without the
> company knowing about it?
And how did they manage to remove the arrows from the dead bodies
without damaging them?
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is <t.forch(a)mail.dk>
People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought
which they avoid.
- Soren Kierkegaard
Troels Forchhammer
held...@hotmail.com (Henriette) enriched us with:
>
<snip>
> Foresight can also be deriven from what it says in Chapter 4:"If
> you pass the doors of Moria, beware!" "Let the guide [Gandalf] go
> first while you have one". "He will lead us out again, at whatever
> cost to himself".
Since the question was whether Aragorn's "If you pass the doors [...]"
actually was prophetic, that would, I'm afraid, be begging the
question.
The "He will lead us out [...]" comment might be prophetic, though I'm
not as sure about that as about the former. It might have been trust of
their leader, but given his earlier comment, which was preceded by his
assurance that he feared neither for the Ring or the others, but for
Gandalf alone, it is possibly a continuation of that.
Pseudonymus Roghater
Do not listen to those TEUNC lies!
Instead, buy a membership in UFAT for $98.99 and receive a copy of my
memoirs (in three volumes), ABSOLUTELY FREE!
Belba Grubb from Stock
Deutch) wrote:
>This is at least the third assertion in this thread that Gandalf's
>words -- "Hound of Sauron" -- eliminate the possibilty that Saruman
>sent the ghost-Wargs, but I wonder. Couldn't Gandalf have been
>mistaken? Or speaking metaphorically? He didn't necessarily mean
>that _these_ particular Wargs were _in this instance_ under the
>command of Sauron. Or so it seems to me...
Oh, Gandalf's never mistaken (BG). I don't think he's speaking
metaphorically, either...not something that comes naturally or
believably to a character who is under dire attack.
I keep skipping ahead in these threads, which is not a good idea, but
if one does compare this to his fight with the Balrog, one sees that
in each encounter Gandalf addresses his adversary directly -- "flame
of Udun" and "Hound of Sauron" -- as if naming them accurately and
precisely establishes his control over them. It's all part of the
spell.
For that matter, he also does it with the doors of Moria, according to
one of the translations given, per Andy above (emphasis added):
>> Annon edhellen, edro hi ammen!
>> Fennas nogothrim, lasto beth lammen!
>I cheated and looked on Ardalambion
>( http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/sindarin.htm )
>"**Elvish gate** open now for us; **doorway of the Dwarf-folk** listen to the
>word of my tongue"
Gandalf would have had to address their dual nature as they are works
of both Elves and Dwarves.
(Word note: "Ammen" is found both in the above command and in the
command the wizard used to ignite the bundles of wood during the
blizzard -- is it a word of command?)
Getting back to the spectral wolves, that Gandalf calls them hounds of
Sauron and Aragorn calls them wargs shows two different perceptions
from the Company, one (correct) from the wizard and one (mistaken but
entirely understandable) from the ranger.
It ties in with all of the delightful vagueness in this chapter that
creates very palpable overall feeling of evil that this Company must
face and overcome even though it is still hundreds of leagues away
from Mordor. Nothing is completely described in a satisfactory way;
we (and the Company) are always left groping for an explanation, and
that just leaves a stronger impression of danger and trouble. And
then the writer locks us in Moria!
Barb
Troels Forchhammer
Grubb from Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> enriched us with:
>
<snip>
["Hound of Sauron"]
> if one does compare this to his fight with the Balrog, one sees
> that in each encounter Gandalf addresses his adversary directly --
> "flame of Udun" and "Hound of Sauron" -- as if naming them
> accurately and precisely establishes his control over them. It's
> all part of the spell.
Which relates nicely to Treebeard's warning to Merry and Pippin:
" 'Hoom, hmm! Come now! Not so hasty! You call yourselves
hobbits? But you should not go telling just anybody. You'll
be letting out your own right names if you're not careful.'
[...]
'Hm, but you /are/ hasty folk, I see,' said Treebeard. 'I
am honoured by your confidence; but you should not be too
free all at once.'"
Names matter, it appears, and right names shouldn't be given to just
anyone with power.
<snip>
> (Word note: "Ammen" is found both in the above command and in the
> command the wizard used to ignite the bundles of wood during the
> blizzard -- is it a word of command?)
Looking the same place as Andy: "for us" or "to us" (An (for/to) + men
(us?) = ammen).
> Getting back to the spectral wolves, that Gandalf calls them
> hounds of Sauron and Aragorn calls them wargs shows two different
> perceptions from the Company, one (correct) from the wizard and
> one (mistaken but entirely understandable) from the ranger.
And when they're called "wolves" in the narrative?
I like your explanation, but I'm not sure that "warg", "wolf" and
"Hound of Sauron" are mutually exclusive - the Hounds of Sauron are, I
think, wolves of the kind often called wargs, but not the ordinary
variant (which, for instance, can't just evaporate when they're dead
<g>)
> It ties in with all of the delightful vagueness in this chapter
[...]
> left groping for an explanation, and that just leaves a stronger
> impression of danger and trouble. And then the writer locks us in
> Moria!
Brilliant!
And it is of course emphasised by letting us into the heads of some of
the company - letting us see their doubts and fears.
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is <t.forch(a)mail.dk>
The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the
opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth.
- Niels Bohr
TeaLady (Mari C.)
news:0q38a01bac048p1s9...@4ax.com:
> Perhaps this has been discussed elsewhere, but does anyone
> have any idea why he went into Moria in the first place?
>
I always thought he went into Moria when he was hunting for
Gollum. That was one of Gollum's haunts at one point, was it
not ?
--
mc
TeaLady / mari conroy
Henriette
Having some expertise in merchandising, Mr. Roghater, I will give you
some absolutely free advice: your UFAT ads would be spicier if you
enlivened them with some excerpts from your memoirs.
Henriette
Christopher Kreuzer
<snip>
[Sauron/Saruman's spies]
> As for the wolves, I think they were exactly what Gandalf called them,
> "hounds of Sauron," and their appearance was triggered by the attempt
> to cross the pass. The crebain in the previous chapter most likely
> served Saruman, as they came from Fangorn and Dunland, but these
> couldn't have seen the Company as they came down from the pass because
> they were below the Company and couldn't look it (without flying
> upside down).
Huh? Then how did the company get _below_ the crebain without being
spotted? The impression I get is that the Company left Caradhras with
all possible speed, both because of the recent avalanche, but also
because they have no wood left and will probably die of exposure if they
spend another night up there. They had no choice and couldn't avoid
being spotted by the crebain.
<snip>
[Long jumping in Moria]
> Having to wait a bit to
> summon up courage and then successfully jumping the seven-foot gap
> (equivalent to a 14-foot gap for one of us...in the dark)
I always found that very unbelievable (as did Michelle). I don't know
about everyone else, but I'd be quite likely to fail to make a 7-foot
jump. Athletes maybe, but hobbits?
<snip>
[Quote from Foreword]
> "...In spite of the darkness of the
> next five years I found that the story could not now be wholly
> abandoned, and I plodded on, mostly by night, till I stood by
> Balin's tomb in Moria. There I halted for a long while. It
> was almost a year later when I went on...
> -- from the Foreword to the second edition
>
> I'm so glad he didn't give up.
Hear, hear! I made some silly comments about how the chapter doesn't
really finish at a suitable point, and that the next chapter is really
part of the same story thread. I'd totally forgotten that this dividing
point marks a real story-external hiatus in the composition of the
story.
Christopher
--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
"This tale grew in the telling, until it became a history of the Great
War of the Ring..." - J.R.R. Tolkien (Foreward to LotR)
Christopher Kreuzer
>> A Journey in the Dark
Returning to this thread:
<snip non-'jouney in the dark' bit>
>> After a meal and another bracing drink, the Company presses on into
>> Moria, with a brief description of complicated passages, arches,
>> stairways, tunnels, etc.
I liked this bit:
"The Mines of Moria were vast beyond the imagination of Gimli, Gloin's
son, dwarf of the mountain-race though he was."
>> During a whispered consultation of which
>> way to go, Aragorn throws out this tantalizing tidbit: "He is surer
>> of finding the way home in a blind night than the cats of Queen
>> Beruthiel." Nice little story hook, there.
Aragorn also says "there are tales in Rivendell of greater deeds of his
[Gandalf] than any that I have seen." What do you think these stories
are?
<snip>
>> The Ring starts to randomly feel heavy to Frodo, and he is certain of
>> feeling evil following and evil ahead. At this point, he's also
>> starting to hear the soft echo of Gollum's footsteps, who has found
>> the Company and is now trailing them.
Note also that Frodo is here specifically said to have been changed by
the Morgul wound: "his senses were sharper and more aware of things that
could not be seen... he could see more in the dark than any of his
companions, save perhaps Gandalf." There are other references to this
later in the book, but I can't remember exactly where.
>> They come to the crossroads where Gandalf does not know which way to
>> go, so they stop in at a guard room to take a rest while he decides.
>> Pippin drops his fateful stone down the guard room well. Is this
>> what triggers the hunt for the Company through Moria? It's certainly
>> the implication, although it's possible they would have been
>> discovered anyway.
Awww. No-one mentioned the Morse Code... :-)
I do like the bit where we get another passage of Gandalf's thoughts:
"He was deep in thought, trying to recall every memory of his former
journey in the Mines..."
>> Gandalf makes his choice, and they journey on to find themselves in a
>> great chasm.
'Chasm'? I'd call it a 'Hall', or what we would call a cave. We only get
brief glimpses of Moria. It would have been nice to find out more about
Moria than we do. I always have a hard time mentally picturing
everything outside the large halls. Just tunnels in the mountain?
As I mentioned in another thread, I've only ever seen one other hall
upheld by many mighty pillars, and that was in Egypt. The film got this
bit right. Awesome sight. The later casual reference to 21st Hall, for
this massive hall, gives some idea of the scale of Moria. Imagine at
least 20 other halls like that one. And also how long they spend walking
through Moria.
>> Gandalf makes an interesting comment; "We are coming
>> now to the habitable parts, and I guess now that we are not far from
>> the eastern side." The habitable parts? So, the Dwarves lived on
>> the eastern side of Moria, and the western side was all mining and
>> work? The door out the western side must have been the back door, so
>> to speak?
Yes. The East or Great Gates were a large cave opening or archway. It
did have gates, but they had been thrown down. These gates were the main
entrance to the Mines of Moria, and the dwarf realm also extended
outwards from there into Dimrill Dale.
It appears that the (smaller, western) Doors of Moria were upgraded from
a back entrance to something a bit more dignified (plus a well-kept
road) when the Noldorin Elves founded Eregion.
That brings up a question I forgot to ask:
The illustration on the Doors of Moria says Celebrimbor drew them and
Narvi made them. I assume Narvi made the Doors and Celebrimbor did the
ithildin writing?
However, the inscription also says that the doors are The Doors of
Durin, Lord of Moria. I always thought that this referred to Durin the
First (or Deathless), who actually died "before the Elder Days were
passed". But Celebrimbor arrived here in the Second Age, so, in fact,
the Durin named on the Doors must have been one of the later Durins.
Does this sounds about right, or am I missing something here? Maybe the
doors had the ithildin added later by Celebrimbor, and Narvi was still
alive.
>> The group stops for the night in the hall, with Gimli singing a song
>> about Khazad-dum and Durin
First Age references: "No stain yet on the Moon was seen" (there is a
story behind that...); No words were laid... (Elves not yet awake -
Durin woke first); mentions of Nargothrond and Gondolin.
Lovely atmospheric song. I like the way the mood changes from the
'beginning of things' and 'ancient days' (verses 1 and 2) to the 'height
of Moria's glory' (verses 3, 4 and 5), which has a slow rising rhythm
(verse 3), and then a nice beating rhythm like a hammer on an anvil
(verse 4) and then a triumphant flourish like the trumpets ringing at
the gates (verse 5).
The contrast with the final verse is stark. The mood plunges from glory
to deep grey despair (verse 6), much like the sudden onslaught of the
Balrog on the dwarves of Khazad-dum. Instead of reading this quickly and
rhythmically like you should verse 4, verse 6 is slow and sombre. Much
more 'sotto voce' (quieter) than verse 5.
Then there is the little catch-phrase that Sam likes so much:
"In Moria, in Khazad-dum"
This provides a little flourish in verse 6, and the final lines give
some hope and prompt a recovery from despair. The "but still the sunken
stars appear" bit, reminds me of Sam's Song in the Orc Tower (In western
lands beneath the Sun...[...] I will not say the Day is done, nor bid
the Stars farewell").
<snip>
>> They wake, and Gandalf decides to look about the hall before deciding
>> which way to go. They find a large square room, containing the tomb
>> of Balin, son of Fundin, Lord of Moria. The effort to take back
>> Moria indeed failed, and the chapter ends in gloom and grieving.
The illustration showing the runes on Balin's tomb has always intrigued
me. Does it read right-to-left or left-to-right, and which bits
correspond with which words?
There are four lines of runes. I've always thought that the runes might
say more than the words Gandalf reads out. In particular, the fourth
line of smaller runes might mean something else?
TeaLady (Mari C.)
news:200405150147...@riot.eu.org:
>
> When Gandalf mentions that the mithril-lodes disappear
> downwards under Caradhras, since this is evidently where the
> Balrog was buried I did wonder whether, in ages past, it
> might have been the unseen aura of Durin's Bane that first
> gave the mountain its bad name. But I wouldn't have thought
> that just having an evil Maia in the area would have been
> enough to trigger 'coincidental' landslides, localised
> snow-drifts, fogs that trick travellers over precipices, or
> whatever malign events a mountain can produce to gain the
> sobriquet of 'the Cruel'...
>
>
I always wondered about that. My own belief is that the
mountains each had their own spirit, of sorts, and that some
were a wee bit cranky and unhappy, what with the two legged
folks digging and delving in and under them. And some may have
just been cranky since the start, perhaps a bit jealous of those
who could wander about at will, north south east west.
Caradhras might have been a happy-go-lucky sort as a lad, and
grew into a grumpy old mountain. At any rate, I wouldn't put it
beyond a mountain, in Tolkien's works, to be able to call up a
storm and fling a few boulders and avalanches down and about
anyone, much less a party that consisted of several folks known
to be diggers and delvers.
Maybe having a blarog in his bowels all those centuries gave him
a really nasty case of heartburn.
Shanahan
>> On Sun, 16 May 2004 22:50:24 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer"
> <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>>There are four lines of runes. I've always thought that the
>>runes might say more than the words Gandalf reads out. In
>>particular, the fourth line of smaller runes might mean
>>something else?
>
> men AND dwarves. The top three lines are Dwarvish, the bottom
> line is in Common Speech (i.e. English). The inscription says
> exactly what Gandalf says it does, it just says it twice.
Balin
Fundinul
UzbadKhazaddumu
BalinSonofFundinLordofMoria
- Ciaran S.
-----------------------------------------------------
We're making enemies faster than we can kill them.
Shanahan
> <pog...@redsuspenders.com> declared:
>> Alison <news....@ntlworld.com> declared:
>>> On Sun, 16 May 2004 22:50:24 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer"
>>> <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>>>There are four lines of runes. I've always thought that the
>>>runes might say more than the words Gandalf reads out. In
>>>particular, the fourth line of smaller runes might mean
>>>something else?
>>
>> As Gandalf says, the inscription is written in the tongues of
>> men AND dwarves. The top three lines are Dwarvish, the bottom
>> line is in Common Speech (i.e. English). The inscription says
>> exactly what Gandalf says it does, it just says it twice.
>
> Balin
> Fundinul
> UzbadKhazaddumu
> BalinSonofFundinLordofMoria
Replying to myself here -
Isn't this last line a mistake? Shouldn't the runes (if not the
translation of them) be in Westron, not in English?
the softrat
<pog...@redsuspenders.com> wrote:
>> In news:40a8...@news.netacc.net, Shanahan
>> <pog...@redsuspenders.com> declared:
>>> Alison <news....@ntlworld.com> declared:
>>>> On Sun, 16 May 2004 22:50:24 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer"
>>>> <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>There are four lines of runes. I've always thought that the
>>>>runes might say more than the words Gandalf reads out. In
>>>>particular, the fourth line of smaller runes might mean
>>>>something else?
>>>
>>> As Gandalf says, the inscription is written in the tongues of
>>> men AND dwarves. The top three lines are Dwarvish, the bottom
>>> line is in Common Speech (i.e. English). The inscription says
>>> exactly what Gandalf says it does, it just says it twice.
>>
>> Balin
>> Fundinul
>> UzbadKhazaddumu
>> BalinSonofFundinLordofMoria
>
>Replying to myself here -
>Isn't this last line a mistake? Shouldn't the runes (if not the
>translation of them) be in Westron, not in English?
>
Uh, you are not the first to notice this 'slight' inconsistency.
the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
"There are critics who simply cannot take seriously any novel
which is not about adultery in Muswell Hill." -- George Orwell
(allegedly).
Shanahan
>> "Shanahan" <pog...@redsuspenders.com> wrote:
<snip stuff about tomb inscription>
>>> Balin
>>> Fundinul
>>> UzbadKhazaddumu
>>> BalinSonofFundinLordofMoria
>>
>>Replying to myself here -
>>Isn't this last line a mistake? Shouldn't the runes (if not the
>>translation of them) be in Westron, not in English?
>>
> Uh, you are not the first to notice this 'slight' inconsistency.
> the softrat
Yah, I seem to recall something CJRT says.
Dirk Thierbach
>> In news:40a8...@news.netacc.net, Shanahan
>> <pog...@redsuspenders.com> declared:
>> BalinSonofFundinLordofMoria
> Replying to myself here -
> Isn't this last line a mistake? Shouldn't the runes (if not the
> translation of them) be in Westron, not in English?
When translating the Red Book from Westron, Tolkien translated of
course the runes, too.
- Dirk
Belba Grubb from Stock
<spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>Belba Grubb from Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>[Sauron/Saruman's spies]
>
>> As for the wolves, I think they were exactly what Gandalf called them,
>> "hounds of Sauron," and their appearance was triggered by the attempt
>> to cross the pass. The crebain in the previous chapter most likely
>> served Saruman, as they came from Fangorn and Dunland, but these
>> couldn't have seen the Company as they came down from the pass because
>> they were below the Company and couldn't look it (without flying
>> upside down).
>
>Huh? Then how did the company get _below_ the crebain without being
>spotted? The impression I get is that the Company left Caradhras with
>all possible speed, both because of the recent avalanche, but also
>because they have no wood left and will probably die of exposure if they
>spend another night up there. They had no choice and couldn't avoid
>being spotted by the crebain.
It's one of those many gray areas in this part of the story -- Frodo
sees the crebain "in the distance below...but still high above the
lower foothills" right after the company gets down below the snow
line. Certainly the birds can't see the company then, but that's the
last we hear about them, unfortunately.
The company then spends the rest of the day heading downward (and
southward, not back to their starting point, as Gandalf admits later),
and it is evening when they stop for the night. It could be argued
that the birds would have been higher up the mountain side, if they
suspected that the company had attempted the mountain pass; also that
the company was always out of sight of the birds, as they were below
the company to begin with and circling in the general direction of the
place the company first started to climb Caradhras, while the company
headed south. But this is never clearly spelled out, and one must
guess. How many different interpretations there are of this chapter!
Wonderful writing.
>I always found that very unbelievable (as did Michelle). I don't know
>about everyone else, but I'd be quite likely to fail to make a 7-foot
>jump. Athletes maybe, but hobbits?
With a run-up and with the strong motivation present, I could probably
do a 7-foot jump (? a 14-foot one, accounting for the difference in
size between hobbits and people). Pippin was said to be smaller than
Merry. But maybe the professor consciously or subconsciously chose
that distance because it was also the distance that Bilbo covered when
he jumped over Gollum: "No great leap for a man, but a leap in the
dark."
We're a much more sedentary generation, it must be remembered. I
think seven feet is no great leap for most people in the sort of
average physical condition they likely would have been in during
Tolkien's youth and middle years.
Barb
Michelle J. Haines
ba...@dbtech.net says...
>
> With a run-up and with the strong motivation present, I could probably
> do a 7-foot jump (? a 14-foot one, accounting for the difference in
> size between hobbits and people). Pippin was said to be smaller than
> Merry.
> We're a much more sedentary generation, it must be remembered. I
> think seven feet is no great leap for most people in the sort of
> average physical condition they likely would have been in during
> Tolkien's youth and middle years.
But 14 feet, as you mention, would be significantly more difficult,
especially in the dark, when you're frightened out of your wits.
Either way, as I said, it was a serious gamble on the part of the
Company, to have the Hobbits jump it rather than tossing them over.
Aragorn and Boromir were both strong enough to pitch the Hobbits
pretty far, and even if someone on the other end couldn't catch them,
a few bruises from landing on the floor is a lot better than a plunge
to the death.
Troels Forchhammer
"Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> enriched us with:
>> Michelle J. Haines wrote:
>>> A Journey in the Dark
<snip>
> I liked this bit:
>
> "The Mines of Moria were vast beyond the imagination of Gimli,
> Gloin's son, dwarf of the mountain-race though he was."
Which also helps us establish some of the immensity, as we have (in
/The Hobbit/) seen Gimli's home in the Lonely Mountain. Here we're
being told that the whole of the Lonely Mountain doesn't even allow
Gimli to /imagine/ the vastness of Moria. That's a very large place!
<snip>
> Aragorn also says "there are tales in Rivendell of greater deeds
> of his [Gandalf] than any that I have seen." What do you think
> these stories are?
Sneaking into Dol Guldur a couple of times would, IMO, qualify ;-)
Restoring the Kingdom under the Mountain might also count.
I'm sure that Gandalf did other things as well, things we haven't heard
about. All we know is that he didn't go east, but he had been to the
south (Incánus), and there is probably some adventures hidden there.
<snip>
> We only get brief glimpses of Moria. It would have been nice to
> find out more about Moria than we do. I always have a hard time
> mentally picturing everything outside the large halls. Just
> tunnels in the mountain?
Just?
An immense network and maze of tunnels, side-tunnels, stairs, shafts,
rooms etc. But yes, tunnels in the mountain (except where natural caves
had been found and possibly expanded).
<snip>
> However, the inscription also says that the doors are The Doors of
> Durin, Lord of Moria. I always thought that this referred to Durin
> the First (or Deathless), who actually died "before the Elder Days
> were passed".
Appendix A, III, 'Durin's Folk' is your friend:
"It came to pass that in the middle of the Third Age Durin
was again its king, being the sixth of that name. [...]
Thus they roused from sleep a thing of terror that,
flying from Thangorodrim, [...] a Balrog of Morgoth. Durin
was slain by it, and the year after Náin I, his son; [...]"
"Of this Ring something may be said here. It was believed by
the Dwarves of Durin's Folk to be the first of the Seven
that was forged; and they say that it was given to the King
of Khazad-dûm, Durin III, by the Elven-smiths themselves
and not by Sauron, though doubtless his evil power was on
it, since he had aided in the forging of all the Seven."
I assume that the 'Durin' mentioned on the door is the same as the one
the Dwarves believe received the Ring - i.e. Durin III. The Dwarves
believed that every Durin was a reincarnation of the first, so, to
them, it was the same Durin anyway.
<snip analysis of song>
Brilliant - I have nothing to add, but I liked it very much.
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is <t.forch(a)mail.dk>
This isn't right. This isn't even wrong.
- Wolfgang Pauli, on a paper submitted by a physicist colleague
(Thus speaks the quantum physicist)
Troels Forchhammer
<news:MPG.1b11e55fb...@news.comcast.giganews.com>
Tar-Elenion <tar_e...@hotmail.com> enriched us with:
>
> What I find interesting about the "Moon" line and the later line that
> has the "light of sun and star and moon" shining in crystal lamps,
> is that it is indicative of a pre-existing sun and moon, not the
> sun and moon coming from the Flower and Fruit of the Two Trees.
I always read that line as meaning that the Dwarves had made crystal
lamps imitating the light of stars, of sun and of moon - the two latter
being the regular Sun and Moon (Fruit and Flower).
On the other hand I think Durin awoke before the rising of the Moon,
and if these lamps were in existence then, then you're right; their
existence implies another Sun and another Moon.
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is <t.forch(a)mail.dk>
+++ Divide By Cucumber Error. Please Reinstall Universe And Reboot +++
- (Terry Pratchett, Hogfather)
Christopher Kreuzer
>> Alison <news....@ntlworld.com> declared:
>> As Gandalf says, the inscription is written in the tongues of
>> men AND dwarves. The top three lines are Dwarvish, the bottom
>> line is in Common Speech (i.e. English). The inscription says
>> exactly what Gandalf says it does, it just says it twice.
>
> Balin
> Fundinul
> UzbadKhazaddumu
> BalinSonofFundinLordofMoria
Thanks! Never realised this before...
Now, why would the dwarves write bilingual gravestones....?
Christopher Kreuzer
> In message <news:QeSpc.1734$_B3.17...@news-text.cableinet.net>
> "Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> enriched us with:
>> "The Mines of Moria were vast beyond the imagination of Gimli,
>> Gloin's son, dwarf of the mountain-race though he was."
>
> Which also helps us establish some of the immensity, as we have (in
> /The Hobbit/) seen Gimli's home in the Lonely Mountain. Here we're
> being told that the whole of the Lonely Mountain doesn't even allow
> Gimli to /imagine/ the vastness of Moria. That's a very large place!
I didn't realise how big Lonely Mountain was either, until reading that
bit in 'The Hobbit' recently. However, Gimli was still inspired enough
to sing that song, thought he was a bit quiet afterwards. It seems that
the Dwarves (of Moria at least) take great pride in their heritage.
<snip>
> Appendix A, III, 'Durin's Folk' is your friend:
Thanks!
> <snip analysis of song>
>
> Brilliant - I have nothing to add, but I liked it very much.
Glad to hear it. :-) I actually got to thinking more about the songs and
poems in LotR, especially after that thread about _skipping_ them, I
mean honestly!! And I came to the conclusion that my favorite songs and
poems are actually mostly from this point on. The Rohirrim in particular
use a lot of verse, but I believe that this is the only example of
Dwarvish verse outside of 'The Hobbit'.
We hear several Ent songs, many hobbit songs, many Elvish songs, many
poems of Rohan (but not much from Gondor or Arnor), but only this one
Dwarf song. What I am really amazed at, is that all these styles of
poetry were attempted (with varying degrees of success, even I'll admit)
by one person: Tolkien.
Christopher Kreuzer
[about jumping across gaps in Moria]
> With a run-up and with the strong motivation present, I could probably
> do a 7-foot jump (? a 14-foot one, accounting for the difference in
> size between hobbits and people). Pippin was said to be smaller than
> Merry. But maybe the professor consciously or subconsciously chose
> that distance because it was also the distance that Bilbo covered when
> he jumped over Gollum: "No great leap for a man, but a leap in the
> dark."
In 'The Hobbit' it is "seven feet forward and three in the air."
(Riddles in the Dark), while in this chapter it is "more than seven
feet". While it is not entirely implausible that there was a conscious
connection, I would say it is more likely to be something to do with the
seemingly universal use of the numbers seven and three (among others) to
the exclusion of almost any other number...
> We're a much more sedentary generation
I'll hratve yeou knhow Ih amh runfnidng osn tfhe sgpot ahs Ij tkype
tkhis!
;-)
Christopher Kreuzer
> In article <QeSpc.1734$_B3.17...@news-text.cableinet.net>,
> spam...@blueyonder.co.uk says...
>>> Michelle J. Haines wrote:
>>>> A Journey in the Dark
>
>>
>> First Age references: "No stain yet on the Moon was seen" (there is a
>> story behind that...)
I think I know what this might be!
From 'Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor' (Silmarillion):
"Tilion had traversed the heavens seven times....when the vessel of
Arien was made ready. Then Anar arose in glory, and the first dawn of
the Sun was like a great fire upon the towers of the Pelori..."
"But Tilion was wayward and uncertain in speed, and held not to his
appointed path; and he sought to come near to Arien, being drawn by her
splendour, though the flame of Anar scorched him, and the island of the
Moon was darkened."
Amazingly, this might mean that the awakening of Durin the First can be
dated. There is no date given in Appendix A of LotR, though I don't know
about HoME. But reading the above, together with the line from Gimli's
song:
"No stain yet on the Moon was seen...
When Durin woke and walked alone."
It seems certain that Durin saw an unstained Moon when he woke, and was
able to tell of the darkening of the Moon in what was presumably the
first solar eclipse.
And of course, Men awoke at the rising of the Sun.
It only remains to work out whether Tirion's seven tranverses of the
heavens were days or months. I'd say days. So Men awoke seven days after
the Dwarves.
>> No words were laid... (Elves not yet awake -
>> Durin woke first); mentions of Nargothrond and Gondolin.
>
> As Elves awoke first the 'no words were laid' could be taken as those
> places where Durin 'walked alone' had yet to be named.
I had thought it could refer to the moment when the Fathers of the
Dwarves were awake in Aule's smithy. But that is a long way from Moria!
On the other hand, the dwarves were probably not above a little
mythologizing propaganda, and their origin myths could well say that
Durin the First woke before all other races!
[Though I've exploded that in the notes above - written later]
Also, I think it has been discussed before, but "Durin walked alone", so
where did his people come from? And don't even mention the Longbeards
and female dwarves and long beards!
> What I find
> interesting about the "Moon" line and the later line that has the
> "light of sun and star and moon" shining in crystal lamps, is that it
> is indicative of a pre-existing sun and moon, not the sun and moon
> coming from the Flower and Fruit of the Two Trees.
I favour Troels's theory that the Dwarves first imitated the stars, and
then the actual Sun and Moon, rather than resorting to pre-existing suns
and moons. Also see my dating of Durin's awakening, above.
I'm off to see if anyone else had spotted that earlier!
Tar-Elenion
spam...@blueyonder.co.uk says...
Durin and the other Dwarves awoke long before the Noldor returned to
Middle-earth. They, for example, assisted Thingol in the building of
Menegroth nearly two millenia before the return (and first showed up in
Beleriand nearly five centuries before they aided with Menegroth). At
that point they already had 'ancient dwellings' to the east.
"Durin I, eldest of the Fathers, 'awoke' far back in the First Age (it
is supposed, soon after the awakening of Men), but in the Second Age
several other Durins had appeared as Kings of the Longbeards
(Anfangrim)."
PoME, Glorfindel essay
>
> >> No words were laid... (Elves not yet awake -
> >> Durin woke first); mentions of Nargothrond and Gondolin.
> >
> > As Elves awoke first the 'no words were laid' could be taken as those
> > places where Durin 'walked alone' had yet to be named.
>
> I had thought it could refer to the moment when the Fathers of the
> Dwarves were awake in Aule's smithy. But that is a long way from Moria!
> On the other hand, the dwarves were probably not above a little
> mythologizing propaganda, and their origin myths could well say that
> Durin the First woke before all other races!
>
> [Though I've exploded that in the notes above - written later]
>
> Also, I think it has been discussed before, but "Durin walked alone", so
> where did his people come from? And don't even mention the Longbeards
> and female dwarves and long beards!
>
> > What I find
> > interesting about the "Moon" line and the later line that has the
> > "light of sun and star and moon" shining in crystal lamps, is that it
> > is indicative of a pre-existing sun and moon, not the sun and moon
> > coming from the Flower and Fruit of the Two Trees.
>
> I favour Troels's theory that the Dwarves first imitated the stars, and
> then the actual Sun and Moon, rather than resorting to pre-existing suns
> and moons. Also see my dating of Durin's awakening, above.
Well, by LotR, the 'pre-existing' sun and moon _are_ the Sun and Moon.
That is, my use of 'pre-existing' means that the Sun and Moon existed
from the 'beginning' rather than coming from the Two Trees (in LotR (and
most post-LotR writings)).
Also it is noted in the same verse that the light of sun and moon in the
laterns that Durin was on the throne in his hall.
--
Tar-Elenion
He is a warrior, and a spirit of wrath. In every
stroke that he deals he sees the Enemy who long
ago did thee this hurt.
Tar-Elenion
Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid says...
> In message
> <news:MPG.1b11e55fb...@news.comcast.giganews.com>
> Tar-Elenion <tar_e...@hotmail.com> enriched us with:
> >
> > What I find interesting about the "Moon" line and the later line that
> > has the "light of sun and star and moon" shining in crystal lamps,
> > is that it is indicative of a pre-existing sun and moon, not the
> > sun and moon coming from the Flower and Fruit of the Two Trees.
>
> I always read that line as meaning that the Dwarves had made crystal
> lamps imitating the light of stars, of sun and of moon - the two latter
> being the regular Sun and Moon (Fruit and Flower).
>
> On the other hand I think Durin awoke before the rising of the Moon,
> and if these lamps were in existence then, then you're right; their
> existence implies another Sun and another Moon.
But the song has Durin waking and seeing the Moon. The sun and moon in
the song would be the real sun and moon, not the 'mythological' sun and
moon from the Two Trees.
Christopher Kreuzer
> In article <frbqc.2799$vX7.28...@news-text.cableinet.net>,
> spam...@blueyonder.co.uk says...
<snip>
>> Amazingly, this might mean that the awakening of Durin the First can
>> be dated.
<snip>
>> It seems certain that Durin saw an unstained Moon when he woke, and
>> was able to tell of the darkening of the Moon in what was presumably
>> the first solar eclipse.
>>
>> And of course, Men awoke at the rising of the Sun.
>>
>> It only remains to work out whether Tirion's seven traverses of the
>> heavens were days or months. I'd say days. So Men awoke seven days
>> after the Dwarves.
Or possibly Men woke first (as in Tar-Elenion's PoME quote below), and
then (almost immediately) the Dwarves, allowing Durin to see an
unstained Moon just before it was scorched by the Sun.
> Durin and the other Dwarves awoke long before the Noldor returned to
> Middle-earth. They, for example, assisted Thingol in the building of
> Menegroth nearly two millenia before the return (and first showed up
> in Beleriand nearly five centuries before they aided with Menegroth).
> At that point they already had 'ancient dwellings' to the east.
You are right. It is right there in 'Of the Sindar': "during the second
age of the captivity of Melkor". Phooey! My theory is blown right out of
the water. Damn those Silmarillion/LotR inconsistencies.
Unless... it is a mingling of Flat/Round World cosmologies, as
Tar-Elenion is saying. But that is far too complicated to think about.
> "Durin I, eldest of the Fathers, 'awoke' far back in the First Age (it
> is supposed, soon after the awakening of Men), but in the Second Age
> several other Durins had appeared as Kings of the Longbeards
> (Anfangrim)."
> PoME, Glorfindel essay
But 'The Silmarillion' has Men awakening "at the rising of the Sun", so
Durin can't have awakened after this, as dwarves are in Beleriand before
the rising of the Moon.
<snip>
[concerning light of sun and star and moon in lamps of crystal]
>> I favour Troels's theory that the Dwarves first imitated the stars,
>> and then the actual Sun and Moon, rather than resorting to
>> pre-existing suns and moons. Also see my dating of Durin's
>> awakening, above.
>
> Well, by LotR, the 'pre-existing' sun and moon _are_ the Sun and Moon.
> That is, my use of 'pre-existing' means that the Sun and Moon existed
> from the 'beginning' rather than coming from the Two Trees (in LotR
> (and most post-LotR writings)).
So are you saying that Tolkien switched to the 'Round World' cosmology
before he wrote LotR? I thought that came later?
> Also it is noted in the same verse that the light of sun and moon in
> the laterns that Durin was on the throne in his hall.
I think that it is probably a technology similar to that of the
Silmarils or the Phial of Galadriel. The light of sun and moon and star
are being captured and used to illuminate Moria. But I am now totally
confused about which Sun and Moon this is referring to...
Tar-Elenion
spam...@blueyonder.co.uk says...
Heh.
>
> Unless... it is a mingling of Flat/Round World cosmologies, as
> Tar-Elenion is saying. But that is far too complicated to think about.
LotR is more consistant with a (so-called) 'Round World' cosmology (with
the exception of one or two passages that can be taken to imply the
'mythological' cosmology (of Mannish legend), but even those passages
can only be interpreted that way when taken in context with The
Silmarillion, which, of course, was not published in the event (as
opposed to the more direct statements of an always extent sun and moon
found here, later in Galadries song, and the direct statement in The
Hobbit which has the dark Elves dwelling underneath the sun and moon
while the Noldor, Vanyar and Amanyarin Teleri dwelt in Aman).
>
> > "Durin I, eldest of the Fathers, 'awoke' far back in the First Age (it
> > is supposed, soon after the awakening of Men), but in the Second Age
> > several other Durins had appeared as Kings of the Longbeards
> > (Anfangrim)."
> > PoME, Glorfindel essay
>
> But 'The Silmarillion' has Men awakening "at the rising of the Sun", so
> Durin can't have awakened after this, as dwarves are in Beleriand before
> the rising of the Moon.
'Mythological pseudo-history' vs. 'real pseudo-history'. Most post-LotR
writings (that touch on the subject) have Men awkening long before the
the Noldor returned and a Sun and Moon existing long before that and
othe 'Round World' elements.
>
> <snip>
>
> [concerning light of sun and star and moon in lamps of crystal]
>
> >> I favour Troels's theory that the Dwarves first imitated the stars,
> >> and then the actual Sun and Moon, rather than resorting to
> >> pre-existing suns and moons. Also see my dating of Durin's
> >> awakening, above.
> >
> > Well, by LotR, the 'pre-existing' sun and moon _are_ the Sun and Moon.
> > That is, my use of 'pre-existing' means that the Sun and Moon existed
> > from the 'beginning' rather than coming from the Two Trees (in LotR
> > (and most post-LotR writings)).
>
> So are you saying that Tolkien switched to the 'Round World' cosmology
> before he wrote LotR? I thought that came later?
Some initial 'Round World' cosmology is found in _Ainulindale C*_ (HoME
10) which is dated (IIRC) to 1946 (interestingly (perhaps), some 'round
world' elements are even found in the BolT Earendil material (which
describes a horizon)).
>
> > Also it is noted in the same verse that the light of sun and moon in
> > the laterns that Durin was on the throne in his hall.
>
> I think that it is probably a technology similar to that of the
> Silmarils or the Phial of Galadriel. The light of sun and moon and star
> are being captured and used to illuminate Moria. But I am now totally
> confused about which Sun and Moon this is referring to...
The 'real' Sun and Moon, rather than the 'mythological' Sun and Moon
from the Trees.
Michelle J. Haines
spam...@blueyonder.co.uk says...
>
> Now, why would the dwarves write bilingual gravestones....?
Because they prefer not to teach their language to people, generally,
and wanted to put a language on it that visitors could read?
Shanahan
>> Shanahan <pog...@redsuspenders.com> wrote:
>>> Shanahan <pog...@redsuspenders.com> declared:
>
>>> BalinSonofFundinLordofMoria
>
>> Replying to myself here -
>> Isn't this last line a mistake? Shouldn't the runes (if not
>> the translation of them) be in Westron, not in English?
>
> When translating the Red Book from Westron, Tolkien translated
> of course the runes, too.
> - Dirk
<g>
But the question isn't what did Tolkien translate. It's what the
dwarves themselves would have carved into the tomb. They wouldn't
have carved the runes for English sounds.
Al MacLeod
> I always found that very unbelievable (as did Michelle). I don't know
> about everyone else, but I'd be quite likely to fail to make a 7-foot
> jump. Athletes maybe, but hobbits?
When I read this chapter to my other half, she expressed surprise that
hobbits could leap a seven-foot gap. We measured it out in the
corridor and I reckoned that (this being in my pre-beer-belly days) I
could manage a seven-foot jump - on the third attempt. ;-)
We then, of course, proceeded to discuss whether you could make the
jump on stumpy wee hobbit legs. I said, "the thing is, we just don't
know how far a hobbit can jump!"
To which she replied, "Yes, we do, they can jump seven feet. It says
so."
Fair point, I thought. The Professor says they can, so they can. And
if we can't jump seven feet, we'll just have to cope with the fact
that hobbits are just better than us. :-)
Al .-.
Dirk Thierbach
>> Dirk Thierbach <dthie...@gmx.de> declared:
>> When translating the Red Book from Westron, Tolkien translated
>> of course the runes, too.
> But the question isn't what did Tolkien translate. It's what the
> dwarves themselves would have carved into the tomb.
But you don't get see what the dwarves themselves carved. You get to
see Tolkiens (imagined) translation from the Westron, including (as he
good translator should) a translation of legends in images etc.
whereever he thinks this is apropriate (i.e., keep Elvish and Khuzdul,
translate Westron).
For example, if I were to translate the Hobbit into German, I would
certainly translate the runes on the map, too. The kids will miss
a lot of fun if they cannot figure them out, because they don't
understand english good enough. (In the same way, IIRC all the Harry
Potter "riddles" have been translated, including the one with the
mirror -- sorry, cannot remember the details).
> They wouldn't have carved the runes for English sounds.
They didn't. They didn't write the Red Book in English, either :-)
- Dirk
Dirk Thierbach
> Now, why would the dwarves write bilingual gravestones....?
Probably for the same reason other people do it as well. I have
seen some bilingual gravestones, especially Jewish ones.
- Dirk
Michelle J. Haines
father...@hotmail.com says...
>
> When I read this chapter to my other half, she expressed surprise that
> hobbits could leap a seven-foot gap. We measured it out in the
> corridor and I reckoned that (this being in my pre-beer-belly days) I
> could manage a seven-foot jump - on the third attempt. ;-)
>
> We then, of course, proceeded to discuss whether you could make the
> jump on stumpy wee hobbit legs. I said, "the thing is, we just don't
> know how far a hobbit can jump!"
>
> To which she replied, "Yes, we do, they can jump seven feet. It says
> so."
>
> Fair point, I thought. The Professor says they can, so they can. And
> if we can't jump seven feet, we'll just have to cope with the fact
> that hobbits are just better than us. :-)
The average person can standing broad jump approximately their
height, and I THINK can running broad jump about one and a half times
their height. More than seven feet is more than twice Pippin's
height. Also, he was frightened, which makes you tense and less able
to span larger distances, and it was dark, so if he was running, it
would be difficult to see where he needs to jump from.
The Professor also says Hobbits are pretty sedentary, and not known
for feats of athletic achievement unless it involves throwing things
or being very quiet. I think this is just one of those things he
didn't think about very much when he wrote it.
@mindspring.com Bruce Tucker
> In article <12ca79c0.04051...@posting.google.com>,
> father...@hotmail.com says...
> >
> > When I read this chapter to my other half, she expressed surprise
that
> > hobbits could leap a seven-foot gap. We measured it out in the
> > corridor and I reckoned that (this being in my pre-beer-belly days)
I
> > could manage a seven-foot jump - on the third attempt. ;-)
Standing or with a running start?
> > We then, of course, proceeded to discuss whether you could make the
> > jump on stumpy wee hobbit legs. I said, "the thing is, we just don't
> > know how far a hobbit can jump!"
> The average person can standing broad jump approximately their
> height, and I THINK can running broad jump about one and a half times
> their height. More than seven feet is more than twice Pippin's
> height. Also, he was frightened, which makes you tense and less able
> to span larger distances, and it was dark, so if he was running, it
> would be difficult to see where he needs to jump from.
>
> The Professor also says Hobbits are pretty sedentary, and not known
> for feats of athletic achievement unless it involves throwing things
> or being very quiet. I think this is just one of those things he
> didn't think about very much when he wrote it.
It's not a strict proportion according to height, though. Your formula
may hold true for someone 5' 9" vs. 5' 4", but I don't think an
eight-foot tall human being can jump twice as far as a four-foot tall
human being. The eight-footer expends a lot of efficiency just keeping
that enormous body standing up. Or for a better comparison, look at how
many times its own length an ordinary house cat can jump, compared to a
lion or a tiger.
Assuming normal, healthy musculature for its own species, the smaller
variety is generally going to be more efficient at propelling its own
bulk, so it wouldn't surprise me that an ordinary hobbit could jump a
gap of more than twice his height while a similar human would be taxed
by a gap of only half again his height.
I wouldn't describe hobbits as all *that* sedentary either, compared to
modern students and office workers. Pippin was young, healthy, and
well-fed, and spent much of his life wandering outdoors, especially over
the past few months.
--
Bruce Tucker
disintegration @ mindspring.com
AC
Christopher Kreuzer <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> Tar-Elenion <tar_e...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Well, by LotR, the 'pre-existing' sun and moon _are_ the Sun and Moon.
>> That is, my use of 'pre-existing' means that the Sun and Moon existed
>> from the 'beginning' rather than coming from the Two Trees (in LotR
>> (and most post-LotR writings)).
>
> So are you saying that Tolkien switched to the 'Round World' cosmology
> before he wrote LotR? I thought that came later?
I believe the seeds of the transformation were sown during the LotR years,
but there was no effort to rewrite the mythology in that fashion until after
LotR was completed. If my memory serves, the round-world version was not
written until the 1950s.
--
Aaron Clausen
mightym...@hotmail.com
Taemon
> For example, if I were to translate the Hobbit into
> German, I would certainly translate the runes on the map,
> too. The kids will miss a lot of fun if they cannot figure them
> out, because they don't understand english good enough.
When I read The Hobbit as a kid I set out to learn those cool
runes by way of the poem on the map. Took me a while to realise I
needed the English version of the poem. I eventually succeeded,
though.
T.
Christopher Kreuzer
> "Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:<e3Rpc.1643$%K3.18...@news-text.cableinet.net>...
>
>> I always found that very unbelievable (as did Michelle). I don't know
>> about everyone else, but I'd be quite likely to fail to make a 7-foot
>> jump. Athletes maybe, but hobbits?
>
> When I read this chapter to my other half, she expressed surprise that
> hobbits could leap a seven-foot gap. We measured it out in the
> corridor and I reckoned that (this being in my pre-beer-belly days) I
> could manage a seven-foot jump - on the third attempt. ;-)
That inspired me... (Don't try this at home folks!) Second attempt. It
was not as far as I thought, I just didn't do a long enough run up on
the first attempt. I'll probably hit the bottom sometime tomorrow...
> We then, of course, proceeded to discuss whether you could make the
> jump on stumpy wee hobbit legs. I said, "the thing is, we just don't
> know how far a hobbit can jump!"
>
> To which she replied, "Yes, we do, they can jump seven feet. It says
> so."
LOL!
> Fair point, I thought. The Professor says they can, so they can. And
> if we can't jump seven feet, we'll just have to cope with the fact
> that hobbits are just better than us. :-)
Nice story.
Christopher Kreuzer
<snip>
> 'Mythological pseudo-history' vs. 'real pseudo-history'. Most
> post-LotR writings (that touch on the subject) have Men awkening long
> before the the Noldor returned and a Sun and Moon existing long
> before that and other 'Round World' elements.
But you'd agree that the reference to an 'unstained' Moon in that song
is a reference to the mythological history?
Thanks for the heads-up on the Round/Flat cosmology inconsistencies.
Tar-Elenion
spam...@blueyonder.co.uk says...
> Tar-Elenion <tar_e...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > 'Mythological pseudo-history' vs. 'real pseudo-history'. Most
> > post-LotR writings (that touch on the subject) have Men awkening long
> > before the the Noldor returned and a Sun and Moon existing long
> > before that and other 'Round World' elements.
>
> But you'd agree that the reference to an 'unstained' Moon in that song
> is a reference to the mythological history?
No, since there could not be a moon at all when Durin woke in the
'mythological history'.
>
> Thanks for the heads-up on the Round/Flat cosmology inconsistencies.
Welcome.
>
> Christopher
Jim Deutch
<mha...@io.nanc.com> wrote:
>In article <4rqha0ti4rp67vu1p...@4ax.com>,
>ba...@dbtech.net says...
>>
>> With a run-up and with the strong motivation present, I could probably
>> do a 7-foot jump (? a 14-foot one, accounting for the difference in
[snippers]
>Either way, as I said, it was a serious gamble on the part of the
>Company, to have the Hobbits jump it rather than tossing them over.
>Aragorn and Boromir were both strong enough to pitch the Hobbits
>pretty far, and even if someone on the other end couldn't catch them,
>a few bruises from landing on the floor is a lot better than a plunge
>to the death.
But, but... being tossed is so . . . un-DIG-nified! Any
self-respecting hobbit would refuse, obviously.
Jim Deutch (Jimbo the Cat)
--
"I regret I have but one life to give for my dignity and
self-respect!"
Christopher Kreuzer
> In article <Ncuqc.3674$yq1.35...@news-text.cableinet.net>,
> spam...@blueyonder.co.uk says...
>> But you'd agree that the reference to an 'unstained' Moon in that
>> song is a reference to the mythological history?
>
> No, since there could not be a moon at all when Durin woke in the
> 'mythological history'.
So why would there be _any_ reference to an unstained Moon in that song?
Maybe the answer is to assume that Durin saw the unstained Moon long
after he awoke, and that it is used as a way to refer to his being very
ancient, though when you look at the history closely, it actually
underestimates his age.
Or do you think that _this_ unstained moon would fit better as a Round
World reference? (As opposed to the Silmarilion mythology story)
Michelle J. Haines
@compuserve.com says...
> On Mon, 17 May 2004 12:26:24 -0600, Michelle J. Haines
> <mha...@io.nanc.com> wrote:
>
> >In article <4rqha0ti4rp67vu1p...@4ax.com>,
> >ba...@dbtech.net says...
> >>
> >> With a run-up and with the strong motivation present, I could probably
> >> do a 7-foot jump (? a 14-foot one, accounting for the difference in
> [snippers]
> >Either way, as I said, it was a serious gamble on the part of the
> >Company, to have the Hobbits jump it rather than tossing them over.
> >Aragorn and Boromir were both strong enough to pitch the Hobbits
> >pretty far, and even if someone on the other end couldn't catch them,
> >a few bruises from landing on the floor is a lot better than a plunge
> >to the death.
>
> But, but... being tossed is so . . . un-DIG-nified!
So is falling into a bottomless chasm and dying. :)
> Any
> self-respecting hobbit would refuse, obviously.
Hmmph.
Ancalagon The Black
>
> Durin and the other Dwarves awoke long before the Noldor returned to
> Middle-earth. They, for example, assisted Thingol in the building of
> Menegroth nearly two millenia before the return (and first showed up in
> Beleriand nearly five centuries before they aided with Menegroth). At
> that point they already had 'ancient dwellings' to the east.
> "Durin I, eldest of the Fathers, 'awoke' far back in the First Age (it
> is supposed, soon after the awakening of Men), but in the Second Age
> several other Durins had appeared as Kings of the Longbeards
> (Anfangrim)."
> PoME, Glorfindel essay
>
If the Dwarves assisted Thingol in the building of Menegroth, two thousand years
before the return of the Noldor to Middle Earth, how long did the First Age
last, and at what point did it begin?
Best,
--
Ancalagon The Black, Secret Fire Of Angband
ancalagon...@virgin.net
Tar-Elenion
spam...@blueyonder.co.uk says...
> Tar-Elenion <tar_e...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > In article <Ncuqc.3674$yq1.35...@news-text.cableinet.net>,
> > spam...@blueyonder.co.uk says...
>
> >> But you'd agree that the reference to an 'unstained' Moon in that
> >> song is a reference to the mythological history?
> >
> > No, since there could not be a moon at all when Durin woke in the
> > 'mythological history'.
>
> So why would there be _any_ reference to an unstained Moon in that song?
Indicating that that Durin's awakening took place in the deeps of time,
before the moon was 'stained' (perhaps by later attacks on it by
Morgoth).
> Maybe the answer is to assume that Durin saw the unstained Moon long
> after he awoke, and that it is used as a way to refer to his being very
> ancient, though when you look at the history closely, it actually
> underestimates his age.
Durin, in the 'mythological psuedo-history' would have awoken 1000's of
years before the moon was made, and thus would be long dead by the time
of its first arising.
>
> Or do you think that _this_ unstained moon would fit better as a Round
> World reference? (As opposed to the Silmarilion mythology story)
This reference in LotR fits better with the 'Round World' cosmology,
though the 'stained' moon can happen in either cosmology.
How would you explain the reference(s) if you were going to argue for a
The Silmarillion cosmology?
What if you had only read LotR?
Tar-Elenion
says...
The First Age lasted something around 4800 years (give or take a
century) and began with the awakening of the Elves at Cuivienen.
Shanahan
> get to see Tolkiens (imagined) translation from the Westron,
> including (as he good translator should) a translation of
> legends in images etc. whereever he thinks this is apropriate
> (i.e., keep Elvish and Khuzdul, translate Westron).
OK, I'll buy that. Actually, Tolkien talks about that somewhere,
the Languages appendix perhaps, doesn't he.
Now that I've really noticed it (damn this newsgroup anyway), it
still irks me, story-internally.
- Ciaran S.
----------------------------------------------------------------
(reporter asks the Tick): "Uh, can you destroy the Earth?"
Tick: "Egads! I hope not! That's where I keep all my stuff!"
Troels Forchhammer
Christopher Kreuzer <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> enriched us with:
>
> Thanks for the heads-up on the Round/Flat cosmology inconsistencies.
I'll second that!
The changing of the world by the One (as mentioned in appendix A I (i))
has always made me think that LotR belonged to the version of the
mythology put forth in the Silmarillion - so much that I was surprised to
be unable to find any reference to the "Straight Way" or "Straight
Road" - not even an indirect description of the Sea sinking below as a
ship sails to the Blessed Realm. But even the phrase that "the world was
changed" doesn't necessarily refer to it being rounded.
The phial Frodo got from Galadriel, however, did contain the light from
the Silmaril in Vingilot, which is an obvious reference to the classic
version of the mythology.
Would it be fair to say that LotR, when investigated carefully, contains
elements of both the classic (flat world being rounded by Eru) and the
modern (world always round, Sun and Moon as we know them) versions of the
mythology?
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail address is t.forch(a)mail.dk
Men, said the Devil,
are good to their brothers:
they don't want to mend
their own ways, but each other's.
- Piet Hein, /Mankind/
Al MacLeod
> > > could manage a seven-foot jump - on the third attempt. ;-)
>
> Standing or with a running start?
A modest running start, if I remember rightly.
Of course, I wasn't - like the humans - wearing armour and carrying a
shield. I'll try that next time I get the opportunity ...
> "Michelle J. Haines" <mha...@io.nanc.com> wrote
> > The Professor also says Hobbits are pretty sedentary, and not known
> > for feats of athletic achievement unless it involves throwing things
> > or being very quiet. I think this is just one of those things he
> > didn't think about very much when he wrote it.
<snippage>
> I wouldn't describe hobbits as all *that* sedentary either, compared to
> modern students and office workers. Pippin was young, healthy, and
> well-fed, and spent much of his life wandering outdoors, especially over
> the past few months.
"... though they are inclined to be fat and do not hurry
unnecessarily, they are nonetheless nimble and deft in their
movements." (Prologue)
"The widest was more than seven feet across, and it was long before
Pippin could summon enough courage to leap over the dreadful gap."
Seems to me like they _could_ - they'd just rather not. :-) Pippin
wasn't a great fan of the idea, so it can't have been easy for him. I
doubt the others were too happy either.
Although I suspect Legolas, nimbly hopping back and forth offering
"encouragement", wouldn't have been that helpful either. ;)
Al .-.
Tar-Elenion
Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid says...
> In <Ncuqc.3674$yq1.35...@news-text.cableinet.net>,
> Christopher Kreuzer <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> enriched us with:
> >
> > Thanks for the heads-up on the Round/Flat cosmology inconsistencies.
>
> I'll second that!
>
> The changing of the world by the One (as mentioned in appendix A I (i))
> has always made me think that LotR belonged to the version of the
> mythology put forth in the Silmarillion - so much that I was surprised to
> be unable to find any reference to the "Straight Way" or "Straight
> Road" - not even an indirect description of the Sea sinking below as a
> ship sails to the Blessed Realm. But even the phrase that "the world was
> changed" doesn't necessarily refer to it being rounded.
>
> The phial Frodo got from Galadriel, however, did contain the light from
> the Silmaril in Vingilot, which is an obvious reference to the classic
> version of the mythology.
>
> Would it be fair to say that LotR, when investigated carefully, contains
> elements of both the classic (flat world being rounded by Eru) and the
> modern (world always round, Sun and Moon as we know them) versions of the
> mythology?
Yes, but as you note above, the 'flat-world' mythological elements are
'indirect' and need a reading of The Silmarillion to actually be put
into that context. The 'round-world' elements are rather more direct in
LotR (and explicit in The Hobbit). Thus my opinion that LotR is more
consistant with a 'round-world' mythology than a 'flat-world' one.
AC
Only from the perspective that by the point LotR was written the basic story
of Numenor already existed and Eru's rounding of the world had happened.
There simply isn't enough in the narrative about the First Age to really
meaningfully talk about consistency with the attempt to rewrite the
mythology in round-world form.
--
Aaron Clausen
mightym...@hotmail.com
Christopher Kreuzer
[about LotR/Silmarillion inconsistencies]
> Only from the perspective that by the point LotR was written the
> basic story of Numenor already existed and Eru's rounding of the
> world had happened. There simply isn't enough in the narrative about
> the First Age to really meaningfully talk about consistency with the
> attempt to rewrite the mythology in round-world form.
How about?
"No stain yet on the moon was seen,
[...]
When Durin woke and walked alone."
;-)
Belba Grubb from Stock
<mha...@io.nanc.com> wrote:
>In article <4rqha0ti4rp67vu1p...@4ax.com>,
>ba...@dbtech.net says...
>>
>> With a run-up and with the strong motivation present, I could probably
>> do a 7-foot jump (? a 14-foot one, accounting for the difference in
>> size between hobbits and people). Pippin was said to be smaller than
>> Merry.
>*snip*
>> We're a much more sedentary generation, it must be remembered. I
>> think seven feet is no great leap for most people in the sort of
>> average physical condition they likely would have been in during
>> Tolkien's youth and middle years.
>
>But 14 feet, as you mention, would be significantly more difficult,
>especially in the dark, when you're frightened out of your wits.
I agree about the 14 feet, although the fear would provide adrenaline,
Gandalf's wand would provide light, and the knowledge that the doors
behind me will never open again and the only way out is on the other
side of the gap would provide wings to my feet.
What's the exchange between Yoda and Luke in "The Empire Strikes
Back"?
"I don't believe it!"
"That is why you failed."
>Either way, as I said, it was a serious gamble on the part of the
>Company, to have the Hobbits jump it rather than tossing them over.
>Aragorn and Boromir were both strong enough to pitch the Hobbits
>pretty far, and even if someone on the other end couldn't catch them,
>a few bruises from landing on the floor is a lot better than a plunge
>to the death.
Perhaps, but not nearly as satisfying as getting to know Pippin a
little better. What a tough little "fool of a Took"!
Barb
Christopher Kreuzer
> In article <nYvqc.3886$IB2.36...@news-text.cableinet.net>,
> spam...@blueyonder.co.uk says...
>> Tar-Elenion <tar_e...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> In article <Ncuqc.3674$yq1.35...@news-text.cableinet.net>,
>>> spam...@blueyonder.co.uk says...
>>
>>>> But you'd agree that the reference to an 'unstained' Moon in that
>>>> song is a reference to the mythological history?
>>>
>>> No, since there could not be a moon at all when Durin woke in the
>>> 'mythological history'.
>>
>> So why would there be _any_ reference to an unstained Moon in that
>> song?
>
> Indicating that that Durin's awakening took place in the deeps of
> time, before the moon was 'stained' (perhaps by later attacks on it by
> Morgoth).
Yes. Those attacks took place in the mythological history as well.
>> Maybe the answer is to assume that Durin saw the unstained Moon long
>> after he awoke, and that it is used as a way to refer to his being
>> very ancient, though when you look at the history closely, it
>> actually underestimates his age.
>
> Durin, in the 'mythological psuedo-history' would have awoken 1000's
> of years before the moon was made, and thus would be long dead by the
> time of its first arising.
Is that absolutely certain?
"There he lived so long that he was known far and wide as Durin the
Deathless. Yet in the end he died before the Elder Days had passed..."
(Appendix A)
Which in this context mean before the end of the First Age. But we have
the example of Elros [a special case and first of that line] living for
500 years (about 7 times a normal lifespan), so why couldn't Durin [a
special case and first of that line] live seven times a Dwarf's lifespan
(about 600 years) and so live for over 4000 years?
>> Or do you think that _this_ unstained moon would fit better as a
>> Round World reference? (As opposed to the Silmarilion mythology
>> story)
>
> This reference in LotR fits better with the 'Round World' cosmology,
> though the 'stained' moon can happen in either cosmology.
>
> How would you explain the reference(s) if you were going to argue for
> a The Silmarillion cosmology?
Good question. Having thought about it, I see what you mean now. I
can't. There is a fundamental inconsistency there.
> What if you had only read LotR?
There would be no problem. Just unexplained references.
Belba Grubb from Stock
<spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>> We're a much more sedentary generation
>
>I'll hratve yeou knhow Ih amh runfnidng osn tfhe sgpot ahs Ij tkype
>tkhis!
Ah yes, but clearly you don't do it too often, or your newsgroup
reader spellchecker would have caused a fatal error by now. Here, sit
down, put your feet up, catch your breath and work out the kinks in
your typing fingers, and have a cuppa with lots of cream and sugar and
a nice plate of biscuits (cookies, as we'd call them here) as you rest
up.
;^)
Tar-Elenion
> Tar-Elenion <tar_e...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > In article <nYvqc.3886$IB2.36...@news-text.cableinet.net>,
> > spam...@blueyonder.co.uk says...
> >> Tar-Elenion <tar_e...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>> In article <Ncuqc.3674$yq1.35...@news-text.cableinet.net>,
> >>> spam...@blueyonder.co.uk says...
> >> Maybe the answer is to assume that Durin saw the unstained Moon long
> >> after he awoke, and that it is used as a way to refer to his being
> >> very ancient, though when you look at the history closely, it
> >> actually underestimates his age.
> >
> > Durin, in the 'mythological psuedo-history' would have awoken 1000's
> > of years before the moon was made, and thus would be long dead by the
> > time of its first arising.
>
> Is that absolutely certain?
>
> "There he lived so long that he was known far and wide as Durin the
> Deathless. Yet in the end he died before the Elder Days had passed..."
> (Appendix A)
>
> Which in this context mean before the end of the First Age. But we have
> the example of Elros [a special case and first of that line] living for
> 500 years (about 7 times a normal lifespan), so why couldn't Durin [a
> special case and first of that line] live seven times a Dwarf's lifespan
> (about 600 years) and so live for over 4000 years?
A normal lifespan for Dwarves is about 250 years. The longest lifespan
for a Dwarf that we have on record is Dwalin at 340.
<snip>
John Jones
> AC <mightym...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> [about LotR/Silmarillion inconsistencies]
>
> > Only from the perspective that by the point LotR was written the
> > basic story of Numenor already existed and Eru's rounding of the
> > world had happened. There simply isn't enough in the narrative about
> > the First Age to really meaningfully talk about consistency with the
> > attempt to rewrite the mythology in round-world form.
>
> How about?
>
> "No stain yet on the moon was seen,
> [...]
> When Durin woke and walked alone."
>
Isn't this just a poetic way of saying 'It was a long time ago'?
Troels Forchhammer
<spres...@yahoo.com> enriched us with:
> Belba Grubb from Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote in
> news:0q38a01bac048p1s9...@4ax.com:
>>
>> Perhaps this has been discussed elsewhere, but does anyone
>> have any idea why he went into Moria in the first place?
>
> I always thought he went into Moria when he was hunting for
> Gollum. That was one of Gollum's haunts at one point, was it
> not ?
It might be that he entered Moria during his search for Gollum, but I
don't think we have any evidence that Gollum entered Moria before
escaping from Thranduil's Elves in Mirkwood, when he went there to
escape from Elves, Orcs and Ringwraiths.
My own suspicion is that Aragorn went into Moria during his "his great
journeys and errantries" from TA 2957 - 2980, but I'd certainly like to
know the specifics as well ;-)
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is <t.forch(a)mail.dk>
If no thought
your mind does visit,
make your speech
not too explicit.
- Piet Hein, /The Case for Obscurity/
TeaLady (Mari C.)
news:200405150147...@riot.eu.org:
> I note the description of the weather change here: 'almost
> as if it was at the command of some power that had no longer
> any use for snow, since they had retreated from the pass, a
> power that wished now to have a clear light in which things
> that moved in the wild could be seen from far away.' While
> Tolkien is hedging - 'almost as if' - this does tend to
> suggest, sadly, that Sauron and not the mountain Caradhras
> was responsible for the unseasonable weather of the previous
> night. (Sadly, because I prefer the concept of a world with
> individual malign or benevolent powers, rather than one
> great fated plan.)
>
I read that to hint at a paranoia that could start to affect the
fellowship - a well-founded and based on real danger paranoia -
where none could really know, for certain, if the obstacles, bad
weather and various wild animals lurking about "unnaturally"
(attacking or not) were due to Sauron, Saruman or just other,
unrelated evil, or even just coincidence. The crows, the storm,
the wargs, who commanded them ? Then we get to the balrog in
Moria, who may or may not be in allegiance with Sauron (the
balrog was originally aligned with Melkor, but there is no
certainty that it later gave allegiance to Sauron) and the
watcher in the pool, which is a mystery as deep as Bombadil and
as far from good as Bombadil was from evil.
--
TeaLady / mari conroy
"The adjectivisation of our nounal units will be greeted with
disconcertion by elders" Simon on the status of English as she
is spake.
Forget the clue by 4. I want an iron :
http://codesmiths.com/shed/things/clueiron/
Dirk Thierbach
>> Dirk Thierbach <dthie...@gmx.de> declared:
>> But you don't get see what the dwarves themselves carved. You
>> get to see Tolkiens (imagined) translation from the Westron,
>> including (as he good translator should) a translation of
>> legends in images etc. whereever he thinks this is apropriate
>> (i.e., keep Elvish and Khuzdul, translate Westron).
> OK, I'll buy that. Actually, Tolkien talks about that somewhere,
> the Languages appendix perhaps, doesn't he.
I don't think he says it explicitely in Appendix F. But in PoME
he says:
In preparing an example of the Book of Mazarbul [...] I followed the
general principle followed throughout: the Common Speech was to be
represented as English of today, literary or colloquial as the case
demanded. Consequently the text was cast into English spelt as at
present [...]
He also goes on to explain that the use of Balin instead of the proper
"secret" Khuzdul name in this context is "absurd" :-) (in therefore should
probably considered an error.)
- Dirk
Hasan Murtaza
> This should be crossposted to AFT as well.
>
>
>>A Journey in the Dark
>>
>>
>>They reach the gate, to be greeted by enormous Holly trees, planted
>>by the Elves of Hollin. That was during the Second Age, was it not?
>>Those are some OLD trees. Also, I don't have a good mental image of
>>what holly TREES might look like, since I've only really seen holly
>>bushes, although some pretty big ones.
>>
>>Gandalf tells everyone to get ready to go into Moria while he
>>searches for the door, and Sam finally finds out the plan to leave
>>Bill at the door. He is understandably upset, but Gandalf blesses
>>the pony, and they have hope he'll find his way back to Rivendell.
>>
>>Gandalf remembers the words to awaken the ithildin, and awakens the
>>signs on the door, in what is one of the most iconic LOTR visual
>>moments for me.[2] There is a bunch of conversation on how to get
There is a similarity between the gate of the temple of Solomon and this
doorway here. Some people (and me too) have already commented on the
similarity with Tolkien Dwarves and Jews (the sound of their language
etc.) This seems to be one more piece of the puzzle.
King Solomon's (peace on him) temple was built on a mountain named
Moriah, and had a gate with a similar design to the LOTR Moria one. It
had 2 pillars named Jachin and Boaz. There was a set of pomegranate
leaves in the arch between them, on top of which the word "Shalom"
(peace) was written. In front of the door there was a pool of water in
which the priests made their ablutions.
Any other ancient temple could have had 2 pillars and an arch, but since
the temple of Solomon has so much significance to western
religious/mystical thought, I think that attention sould be specially
focused on that. Incidentally, Sir Isaac Newton spent half his life
studying the mystical symbolism of the dimensions of the temple of
Solomon. So harping on the superficial details of the temple, has quite
a long history in Western culture. I can never figure that out. It
makes absolutely no sense to me.
http://www.artsales.com/ARTistory/ark_covenant/Columns_at_the_Temple_of_Solomon_Joachim_and_Boaz.htm
Hasan
Ancalagon The Black
> Indicating that that Durin's awakening took place in the deeps of time,
> before the moon was 'stained' (perhaps by later attacks on it by
> Morgoth).
>
I think the staining of the Moon was caused by Tilion as he guided it through
the heavens - he was very attracted to Arien, the maiden who guided the Sun.
He got too close to her (and the vessel she guided) and got burned.
I find this a rather amusing explanation for the modern-day, real world
appearance of the dark patches on the Moon.
Dirk Thierbach
> There is a similarity between the gate of the temple of Solomon and this
> doorway here.
That's a very interesting idea.
> Some people (and me too) have already commented on the similarity
> with Tolkien Dwarves and Jews (the sound of their language etc.)
> This seems to be one more piece of the puzzle.
BTW, in his last interview Tolkien himself mentions this similarity.
(I am sure this his already been said, just in case).
> King Solomon's (peace on him) temple was built on a mountain named
> Moriah,
Can you give a reference where the name Moriah is mentioned? Is it
in the Bible? I have looked at the URL you gave, but I couldn't find
it there.
> and had a gate with a similar design to the LOTR Moria one. It
> had 2 pillars named Jachin and Boaz. There was a set of pomegranate
> leaves in the arch between them, on top of which the word "Shalom"
> (peace) was written. In front of the door there was a pool of water in
> which the priests made their ablutions.
Pillars to the left and right of a portal are a very common idea, as
is an inscription above a portal (now if it had been "friend" instead
of "peace"...). I don't know about the pool (if it is needed by priests,
one would expect this design in other places as well, I think). So
it still may be just chance, but the similarities are interesting.
> Any other ancient temple could have had 2 pillars and an arch, but
> since the temple of Solomon has so much significance to western
> religious/mystical thought, I think that attention sould be
> specially focused on that.
And at least here the similarities stop, I think: Moria wasn't a
temple, and certainly had no significance to religious or mystical
thought.
- Dirk