Q: Who are the five armies in the Hobbit?
All the News
bit confused on the battle of five armies at the end. It seems
to me that there are six potential armies involved:
1. Humans from the lake town.
2. Elves from Mirkwood
3. Dwarfs from the Iron Mountains
4. Goblins (Orcs)
5. Wolves (Wrags)
6. Eagles
I certainly don't think that Tolkien just made an error and
counted wrong here, so I don't think all those armies are
supposed to be seperate ones. I see a few possibilities
for 'contracting' the armies down to five:
A. Eagles aren't technically an army, their air force, so
they don't count. It's five armies plus an air force, but
that title is way too long for a battle, so they just shorten
it to 5 armies battle. (Least likely to be the case I think.)
B. The Human and Elves count as one combined army.
Either one was very big, and neither one initially set
out to do battle in a large force expecting to find only
a handful of Dwarfs plus a Hobbit to contend with.
Due to their smallish numbers, only combined were
they worthy of being called an army. (More likely
than A, but still not what I think is the case.)
C. The Wolves and Goblins count as one army. While
the Wolves are certainly an assest to the Goblins, they
aren't a major part of the battle. Alone they would
certainly not be numerous enough to be considered
a seperate army. (Most likely in my opinion.)
Has Tolkien ever commented on this question? If so,
what did he say? If not, what is everyone else's thoughts
on the matter?
Chris
Steuard Jensen
<c226md$1ndt6e$1...@ID-63378.news.uni-berlin.de>:
> Okay, so I just finished re-reading The Hobbit. I'm a slight
> bit confused on the battle of five armies at the end. It seems
> to me that there are six potential armies involved:
We had a discussion of this point last September, and I think the best
answer comes from the introductory comments to the battle in _The
Hobbit_ itself:
"So began a battle that none had expected; and it was called the
Battle of Five Armies, and it was very terrible. Upon one side
were the Goblins and the Wild Wolves, and upon the other were Elves
and Men and Dwarves."
So it looks like Tolkien didn't count the Eagles as an "army" (nor the
bats, who were there from the start and probably played as much of a
role as the Eagles did, nor Beorn who almost counted as an army by
himself, nor separating the two independent groups of Dwarves). I
think that earlier thread pretty firmly settled on this answer, though
I'd welcome corrections to that impression from others who remember
it. :)
Steuard Jensen
Brian Grassie
news:0p21c.44$_4.1...@news.uchicago.edu...
My impression was always that the eagles weren't counted, although I did
wonder why not - since they turned the tide, after all.
~Brian
Nystulc
>Okay, so I just finished re-reading The Hobbit. I'm a slight
>bit confused on the battle of five armies at the end. It seems
>to me that there are six potential armies involved:
>
>1. Humans from the lake town.
>2. Elves from Mirkwood
>3. Dwarfs from the Iron Mountains
>4. Goblins (Orcs)
>5. Wolves (Wargs)
These are the five: But with one quibble and clarification. The Goblins rode
on Wolves, so the Fourth Army consisted of Goblins AND Wolves.
The Fifth Army are called the "Wild Wolves", in the Hobbit, evidently to
distinguish them from those Wolf-Mounts that are a subservient part of the
Goblin Army.
The Wild Wolves are also called "Wargs". I'm not entirely sure if the
Wolf-Mounts in the Goblin Army are also Wargs.
>6. Eagles
In addition to the Eagles there are also:
7. The Bats
8. Thorin's Troop of 13 Dwarves.
9. A Big Bear
10. A Old Giezer with a Tall Blue Hat.
11. An invisible Hobbit
>I certainly don't think that Tolkien just made an error and
>counted wrong here, so I don't think all those armies are
>supposed to be seperate ones. I see a few possibilities
>for 'contracting' the armies down to five:
>
>A. Eagles aren't technically an army, their air force, so
>they don't count. It's five armies plus an air force, but
>that title is way too long for a battle, so they just shorten
>it to 5 armies battle. (Least likely to be the case I think.)
Another possibility was that there were not enough of them (numerically) to
count as an "Army". They also did not show up until rather late in the game.
>B. The Human and Elves count as one combined army.
>Either one was very big, and neither one initially set
>out to do battle in a large force expecting to find only
>a handful of Dwarfs plus a Hobbit to contend with.
>Due to their smallish numbers, only combined were
>they worthy of being called an army. (More likely
>than A, but still not what I think is the case.)
Nah.
>C. The Wolves and Goblins count as one army. While
>the Wolves are certainly an assest to the Goblins, they
>aren't a major part of the battle. Alone they would
>certainly not be numerous enough to be considered
>a seperate army. (Most likely in my opinion.)
This is half-right. The Goblin Army did include Wolves, but the Wild Wolves
were still a separate army.
>Has Tolkien ever commented on this question? If so,
>what did he say? If not, what is everyone else's thoughts
>on the matter?
My opinion is that it does not matter. I agree that the best answer is the
one above. But really, it does not matter how you count them, as long as the
Battle has a name that it can be referred to for posterity.
If "One Tree Hill" has three trees on it, does it really matter which tree is
THE "one tree" on "One Tree Hill"? I don't think so.
Michael O'Neill
>
> Okay, so I just finished re-reading The Hobbit. I'm a slight
> bit confused on the battle of five armies at the end. It seems
> to me that there are six potential armies involved:
>
> 1. Humans from the lake town.
> 2. Elves from Mirkwood
> 3. Dwarfs from the Iron Mountains
> 4. Goblins (Orcs)
> 5. Wolves (Wrags)
> 6. Eagles
>
> I certainly don't think that Tolkien just made an error and
> counted wrong here
<snip>
Of course he did.
I expect we'll dig up some witterings later this century that will show
there were *eight* wizards and not five.
M.
The American
"Michael O'Neill" <o...@indigo.ie> wrote in message
news:404842EB...@indigo.ie...
Well, Tolkien did forget all about Merlin.
Maybe Merlin is Bombadil getting active again?
Bombadil finally got tired waiting for a change of days.
:o)
T.A.
Tord Kallqvist Romstad
> Well, Tolkien did forget all about Merlin.
>
> Maybe Merlin is Bombadil getting active again?
> Bombadil finally got tired waiting for a change of days.
> :o)
How do you know Merlin is not Radagast or one of the Blue Wizards?
--
Tord Romstad
The American
"Tord Kallqvist Romstad" <rom...@math.uio.no> wrote in message
news:gqkznav...@aload.uio.no...
The Lady of the Lake.
This water "goddess" or "spirit" is obviously Goldberry.
And where there is Goldberry there is Tom.
:o)
How's that?
T.A.
Tim Bruening
> Quoth "All the News" <ctb_me_spam...@softhome.net> in article
> <c226md$1ndt6e$1...@ID-63378.news.uni-berlin.de>:
> > Okay, so I just finished re-reading The Hobbit. I'm a slight
> > bit confused on the battle of five armies at the end. It seems
> > to me that there are six potential armies involved:
>
> We had a discussion of this point last September, and I think the best
> answer comes from the introductory comments to the battle in _The
> Hobbit_ itself:
>
> "So began a battle that none had expected; and it was called the
> Battle of Five Armies, and it was very terrible. Upon one side
> were the Goblins and the Wild Wolves, and upon the other were Elves
> and Men and Dwarves."
Tim Bruening
> Chris wrote:
>
> >Okay, so I just finished re-reading The Hobbit. I'm a slight
> >bit confused on the battle of five armies at the end. It seems
> >to me that there are six potential armies involved:
> >
> >1. Humans from the lake town.
> >2. Elves from Mirkwood
> >3. Dwarfs from the Iron Mountains
> >4. Goblins (Orcs)
> >5. Wolves (Wargs)
>
> These are the five: But with one quibble and clarification. The Goblins rode
> on Wolves, so the Fourth Army consisted of Goblins AND Wolves.
>
> The Fifth Army are called the "Wild Wolves", in the Hobbit, evidently to
> distinguish them from those Wolf-Mounts that are a subservient part of the
> Goblin Army.
>
> The Wild Wolves are also called "Wargs". I'm not entirely sure if the
> Wolf-Mounts in the Goblin Army are also Wargs.
>
> >6. Eagles
>
> In addition to the Eagles there are also:
>
> 7. The Bats
> 8. Thorin's Troop of 13 Dwarves.
> 9. A Big Bear
> 10. A Old Giezer with a Tall Blue Hat.
> 11. An invisible Hobbit
seanq...@gmail.com
> Why didn't Bilbo use his Ring to sneak up on Orcs to kill them?
of You Know Who.
SQ
bill van
Bilbo's 111th birthday.
--
bill
Taemon
> Why didn't Bilbo use his Ring to sneak up on Orcs to kill them?
Jeff Urs
--
Jeff