Chapter of the Week - LotR - Bk6 Ch7 - Homeward Bound

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AC

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Apr 3, 2005, 10:44:05 PM4/3/05
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Chapter of the Week
LotR - Book 6 - Chapter 7 - Homeward Bound

Synopsis
--------
Gandalf and the Hobbits now depart from Rivendell, eager to return to the
Shire. There are signs now that all is not well with Frodo; he seems
unwilling to cross the Ford of Bruinen, and suffers some pain on this day
(October 6th), the anniversary of his receiving the wound by the Morgul
blade. He asks Gandalf "Where shall I find rest?", but Gandalf does not
answer[1].

Still, Frodo's pain passes and the Hobbits are merry again, much enjoying
the trip. But when Weathertop comes into view, Frodo is again ill at ease
and begs them to hurry on. The weather changes, and the wind blows from the
West[2], and Bree Hill is veiled by a curtain of rain from their sight.

The Hobbits initially get something of a distrustful reception, the sight of
Gandalf seems to set the Gatekeeper at ease. They discover that the old
gatekeeper, Harry, is gone, and that Bill Ferny's house is boarded up and
unkempt. Ned and Butterbur are happy to see them, and apparently there's
been some trouble since the Hobbits left with Strider.

The Common Room is almost empty, and Butterbur seems careworn. He leads
them to the parlour, and after supper comes for a talk. Another revelation
occurs; there's been no pipe-weed from the Southfarthing![3] Barliman
listens to their news, but his is dark. There's been trouble in Bree, with
more "newcomers and gangrels" coming up the Greenway, and even people being
killed.[4]

It seems that there was a fight between the strangers and the Breefolk, but
the Breefolk got the upper hand, despite the treachery of some locals (Harry
the Gatekeeper and Bill Ferny).[5] Barliman also talks of wolves howling
last winter, and of dark shapes in the woods.[6]

The Breefolk seem now to have realized the full importance of the Rangers,
having to pass through some dangerous times without them. Quite a stark
contrast from the sort of treatment Aragorn received there a year ago.
Gandalf delivers some good news, that the Rangers are returning and that
there is a new king. The Breefolk should apparently expect a good deal of
immigration as well.[7]

Gandalf tells Barliman that the king will return to the North Downs (which
Barliman calls Deadmen's Dike[8]). Barliman is also greatly surprised to
learn that the king is Strider.

Sam gets a very good bit of news. Bill the Pony managed, somehow, to make
it back to Bree.[9]

Gandalf and the Hobbits spend the rest of the next day in Bree, and manage
to give Barliman's business a boost as curious folk come to see the Hobbits
returned from strange foreign places. They wonder at the appearance of the
Hobbits and Gandalf.[10]

Finally the Hobbits depart from Bree and make their way for the Shire. They
now have enough hints to know that things are very wrong in the Shire.
Gandalf reminds them of Saruman as a possible cause.

Gandalf also reveals that he is not going to the Shire with them, and that
he is going to visit Tom Bombadil instead.[11] Finally they reach that
point where Bombadil had seen them off on their way to Bree so long before.
Gandalf presses them to hurry back to the Shire, before the gates are
locked. This apparently causes some great surprise for the Hobbits, though
Gandalf seems quite certain of it.[12]

So Gandalf rides away, and the Hobbits finally turn for home.[13]

Points of Interest
------------------
[1] This is one of the first very big hints we have that Frodo is not well.
Frodo has had some hints of where healing might be found, but it seems here
that he has not quite yet fathomed the answer. He knows enough to realize
that he has changed, and the Shire will not be the same.

[2] Is there any significance to this?

[3] Surely Pippin and Merry must suspect things are very wrong in the Shire,
as it is they that discovered the barrel of Southfarthing pipe-weed in the
ruin of Isengard.

[4] Barliman seems to say this so emphatically that I can only assume that
the Shire isn't alone among the mortal realms in having a poverty of murder.
Clearly this Hobbitish racial-cultural phenomenon has rubbed off on the Men
of Bree.

[5] We know that Saruman had agents in the Shire and Bree. Was this an
orchestrated attempt by Saruman to seize control of Bree, or just his men
having a little fun?

[6] What could these dark shapes be?

[7] Where are all these immigrants that are going to live in the vast
stretches of Eriador going to come from?

[8] Clearly Barliman believes the ruins of the capital of the North Kingdom
are haunted. Is there any reason to think this is so, or is it just local
superstition?

[9] I'd give a lot to hear about that pony's adventures. That is one very
big journey through some very hard territory.

[10] This is a passage I never paid much attention to before, but this is a
pretty interesting description of Gandalf; "with his white beard, and the
light that seemed to gleam from him, as if his blue mantle was only a cloud
over sunshine". I'm guessing here that we're seeing Gandalf Mark II, and
the people of Bree are getting what must be a very rare chance to see to a
Maiar whose powers aren't so cloaked.

[11] Gandalf speaks of his time being over. It seems somewhat surprising
that he wouldn't want to help the Hobbits, though he feels they can handle
things quite well on their own. Why is Gandalf so adamant that he cannot
help them, and that instead he's going to go chew the fat with Bombadil?

[12] Alright! There's no avoiding it here. We can try to duck the issue of
Gandalf's powers in other places, but anybody want to debate me that there's
a little bit of the accessing of his angelic powers that is giving Gandalf
this tidbit of information?

[13] The final exchange of this chapter seems very sad to me. Merry
speaking of returning feeling like a dream. Frodo's reply is most telling
of his growth since departing; "'Not to me,' said Frodo. 'To me it feels
more like falling asleep again.'"

--
mightym...@hotmail.com

Michele Fry

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Apr 4, 2005, 1:35:49 AM4/4/05
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In article <slrnd51afl.4kb....@ministry.of.silly.walks>, AC
<mightym...@hotmail.com> writes

>[11] Gandalf speaks of his time being over. It seems somewhat surprising
>that he wouldn't want to help the Hobbits, though he feels they can handle
>things quite well on their own. Why is Gandalf so adamant that he cannot
>help them, and that instead he's going to go chew the fat with Bombadil?

The Hobbits have passed into full "man"hood now - they have to prove to
themselves that they can stand on their own two furry feet and learn not
to rely on "the Wise", since the Wise will not always be with them
(Gandalf knows his time is passing). Gandalf has confidence in their
abilities and characters and knows that this is the best time for them
to learn that they can not only look after themselves, but look after
other hobbits now... Gandalf says as much:

"You must settle its [the Shire's] affairs yourselves; that is what you
have been trained for. Do you not yet understand ? My time is over: it
is no longer my task to set things to rights, nor to help folk to do so.
And as for you, my dear friends, you will need no help. You are grown up
now. Grown indeed very high; among the great you are, and I have no
longer any fear at all for any of you." (RotK, Book 2, Ch. 7)

Michele
==
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[person].
- Seneca
==
Now reading: Tolkien and the Critics - N D Isaacs & R A Zimbado
==
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Jim Samson

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Apr 5, 2005, 8:41:11 PM4/5/05
to
> [11] Gandalf speaks of his time being over. It seems somewhat surprising
> that he wouldn't want to help the Hobbits, though he feels they can handle
> things quite well on their own. Why is Gandalf so adamant that he cannot
> help them, and that instead he's going to go chew the fat with Bombadil?

I always thought that Gandalf was holding back while staying in safe range
to help out, if need be. The hobbits had to stand up for themselves but he
didn't abandon them completely. He would have come back through the Shire
eventually.
Jim


the softrat

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Apr 5, 2005, 9:55:25 PM4/5/05
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On Tue, 5 Apr 2005 19:41:11 -0500, "Jim Samson" <swee...@comcast.net>
wrote:

>
>I always thought that Gandalf was holding back while staying in safe range
>to help out, if need be. The hobbits had to stand up for themselves but he
>didn't abandon them completely. He would have come back through the Shire
>eventually.
>
Like a dog returns to its spew!

the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
"We are experiencing audio technicalities" -- Ralph Kiner, N. Y.
Mets announcer

Henriette

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Apr 10, 2005, 2:47:36 AM4/10/05
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AC wrote:
> Chapter of the Week
> LotR - Book 6 - Chapter 7 - Homeward Bound
(snip great synopsis)
> Points of Interest
> ------------------

> [9] I'd give a lot to hear about that pony's adventures. That is one
very
> big journey through some very hard territory.
>
Yes, poor Bill when he came back: "It was as shaggy as an old dog and
as lean as a clothes-rail, but it was alive".

> [11] Gandalf speaks of his time being over. It seems somewhat
surprising
> that he wouldn't want to help the Hobbits, though he feels they can
handle
> things quite well on their own. Why is Gandalf so adamant that he
cannot
> help them, and that instead he's going to go chew the fat with
Bombadil?

I agree with Michelle Fry's answer in this thread.


>
> [12] Alright! There's no avoiding it here. We can try to duck the
issue of
> Gandalf's powers in other places, but anybody want to debate me that
there's
> a little bit of the accessing of his angelic powers that is giving
Gandalf
> this tidbit of information?
>

"Accessing of his angelic powers" is nicely put. I would call it
clairvoyant, which IMO Gandalf becomes increasingly in LOTR, especially
after his return from Moria.

> [13] The final exchange of this chapter seems very sad to me. Merry
> speaking of returning feeling like a dream. Frodo's reply is most
telling
> of his growth since departing; "'Not to me,' said Frodo. 'To me it
feels
> more like falling asleep again.'"
>

I have never understood Frodo's answer, so I also remain in the dark as
to why Frodo's answer tells "of his growth". Please explain.

Henriette

Shanahan

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Apr 10, 2005, 3:31:58 PM4/10/05
to
AC slrnd51afl.4kb....@ministry.of.silly.walks creatively
typed:

> Chapter of the Week
> LotR - Book 6 - Chapter 7 - Homeward Bound

> Points of Interest
> ------------------


> [6] What could these dark shapes be?

Trolls, perhaps, or wargs? Or eeevill Entwives? <g>

> [7] Where are all these immigrants that are going to live in the vast
> stretches of Eriador going to come from?

"The populous fiefs of Lebennin" might be a possibility. And Rohan
seems to be having a continual border dispute with Dunland, so maybe
Dunlanders. Woodmen from over the Misty Mts., to plant new forests.
And probably some Gondorians, especially once the post-war baby boom
gets rolling!

> [13] The final exchange of this chapter seems very sad to me. Merry
> speaking of returning feeling like a dream. Frodo's reply is most
> telling of his growth since departing; "'Not to me,' said Frodo.
> 'To me it feels more like falling asleep again.'"

This reply always breaks my heart too. Maybe it's partly what any
soldier feels upon returning home, that he was only truly alive when in
battle and the 'real world' seems strangely unreal ever after. But
it's more than just that with Frodo. It's the fact that the Ring and
the Morgul-wound have taken him partly into the Shadow world, and he
can't fully return. As you've said, he's beginning to suspect this.
The Shire will seem dreamlike to him, slightly removed, something he
can't quite touch.

I'm also reminded of what Frodo says in 'The Shadow of the Past', about
the Shire:
"...there have been times when I have thought the inhabitants too
stupid and dull for words, and have felt that an earthquake or an
invasion of dragons might be good for them." I think he realizes that
the Shire will now seem smaller than ever, a bucolic dream far removed
from the Wide World. Frodo is wrong (mostly, now that war has swept
over the Shire) about this, but maybe this feeling is one of the things
that he must go to Valinor to heal: that he is too large for the Shire
now, that he has grown beyond it. That it will not be able to
appreciate what he has done for it.

Oh bugger, I just talked myself into something I swore that I disagreed
with JRRT about!
"That was actually a temptation out of the Dark, a last flicker of
pride: desire to have returned as a 'hero', not content with being a
mere instrument of good."
(/Letters/, #246)
D*mn!

Ciaran S.
--
"....for the one resides in the freedom of the reader,
and the other in the purposed domination of the author."
- JRRT, 'Foreword' to LotR


Christopher Kreuzer

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Apr 10, 2005, 1:12:24 PM4/10/05
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Shanahan <pogu...@ITbluefrog.com> wrote:

<snip>

> Oh bugger, I just talked myself into something I swore that I
> disagreed with JRRT about!

<snip>

> D*mn!

LOL!

Wilt

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Apr 10, 2005, 3:24:20 PM4/10/05
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"Jim Samson" <swee...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:EOSdnUawpqu...@comcast.com...
Gandalf was dead, how could he help *eventually*?

Hedgehog ?

--
Wilt,;,


Öjevind Lång

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Apr 10, 2005, 4:39:11 PM4/10/05
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"Shanahan" <pogu...@ITbluefrog.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:d3bkc...@enews2.newsguy.com...

> AC slrnd51afl.4kb....@ministry.of.silly.walks creatively
> typed:
>> Chapter of the Week
>> LotR - Book 6 - Chapter 7 - Homeward Bound
>
>> Points of Interest
>> ------------------
[snip]

>> [7] Where are all these immigrants that are going to live in the vast
>> stretches of Eriador going to come from?
>
> "The populous fiefs of Lebennin" might be a possibility. And Rohan
> seems to be having a continual border dispute with Dunland, so maybe
> Dunlanders. Woodmen from over the Misty Mts., to plant new forests.
> And probably some Gondorians, especially once the post-war baby boom
> gets rolling!

There were probably still some settlements of humans on the upper reaches of
the Anduin that might be interested in moving there, as well as people from
Dale. And there were apparently a few scattered people living in Eriador
even before the War of the Ring. There is a brief mention of them in "At the
Sign of the Prancing Pony." And don't forget that the Dúnedain of the North
no doubt also had a considerable baby boom after the war.

>> [13] The final exchange of this chapter seems very sad to me. Merry
>> speaking of returning feeling like a dream. Frodo's reply is most
>> telling of his growth since departing; "'Not to me,' said Frodo.
>> 'To me it feels more like falling asleep again.'"
>
> This reply always breaks my heart too. Maybe it's partly what any
> soldier feels upon returning home, that he was only truly alive when in
> battle and the 'real world' seems strangely unreal ever after. But
> it's more than just that with Frodo. It's the fact that the Ring and
> the Morgul-wound have taken him partly into the Shadow world, and he
> can't fully return. As you've said, he's beginning to suspect this.
> The Shire will seem dreamlike to him, slightly removed, something he
> can't quite touch.

He had outgrown the Shire.

Öjevind


AC

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Apr 10, 2005, 6:39:24 PM4/10/05
to
On 9 Apr 2005 23:47:36 -0700,
Henriette <held...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> AC wrote:

>> [13] The final exchange of this chapter seems very sad to me. Merry
>> speaking of returning feeling like a dream. Frodo's reply is most
> telling
>> of his growth since departing; "'Not to me,' said Frodo. 'To me it
> feels
>> more like falling asleep again.'"
>>
> I have never understood Frodo's answer, so I also remain in the dark as
> to why Frodo's answer tells "of his growth". Please explain.

Frodo had started, like all the Hobbits (though possibly to a lesser extent)
in a safe, enclosed, inward-looking society. The Shire Hobbits had been
sleeping, in a way, for centuries, not only largely unaware of the outside
world, but in fact rejecting it, even to the point where few members of even
the more adventurous clans would go to Bree. Shire society had been living
in a dream, a dream that required the vigilance of others to maintain.

For Frodo returning to the Shire must have been exactly like that, like
falling back asleep. Of course, he is quite wrong. He cannot return to the
dream, he is altered in ways much deeper than the other Hobbits save perhaps
Sam.

--
mightym...@hotmail.com

Count Menelvagor

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Apr 10, 2005, 6:44:45 PM4/10/05
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Shanahan wrote:

> > [13] The final exchange of this chapter seems very sad to me.
Merry
> > speaking of returning feeling like a dream. Frodo's reply is most
> > telling of his growth since departing; "'Not to me,' said Frodo.
> > 'To me it feels more like falling asleep again.'"
>
> This reply always breaks my heart too. Maybe it's partly what any
> soldier feels upon returning home, that he was only truly alive when
in
> battle and the 'real world' seems strangely unreal ever after. But
> it's more than just that with Frodo. It's the fact that the Ring and
> the Morgul-wound have taken him partly into the Shadow world, and he
> can't fully return. As you've said, he's beginning to suspect this.
> The Shire will seem dreamlike to him, slightly removed, something he
> can't quite touch.

yes. frodo had been sutained through his quest by the thought that the
shire was there and that maybe soem day he wd return to it (less,
however, than sam, and maybe not at all in mordor). after he returns
to the shire, he will fidn that even in returning he has lost it, for
he no longer belongs there. so instead of a consolation, his return
leads to more sadness.

the whole book, after the field of coramllen, is suffused with this
feeling of loss, and reads almost like a long farewell to middle-earth.
we already find this at the beginnign of many partings, where someone
(aragorn?) predicts that the fellowship will never meet again.

tolkien excels at conveying this feeling of melancholy.

Christopher Kreuzer

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Apr 10, 2005, 8:14:32 PM4/10/05
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Count Menelvagor <Menel...@mailandnews.com> wrote:

<snip>

> the whole book, after the field of cormallen, is suffused with this


> feeling of loss, and reads almost like a long farewell to

> middle-earth. we already find this at the beginning of many


> partings, where someone (aragorn?) predicts that the fellowship will
> never meet again.

Gimli. Though Aragorn actually says the bit about the "ending of the
Fellowship of the Ring". This is one of the really poignant moments, and
one that can also be applied to many gatherings today, though it would
mean more to those in a world that didn't have jet aircraft and
satellite communications:

[Here then at last comes the ending of the Fellowship of the Ring.] "We
will send word when we may, and some of us may yet meet at times; but I
fear that we shall not all be gathered together ever again." - Gimli's
farewell (Many Partings, RotK)

> tolkien excels at conveying this feeling of melancholy.

Yes. Though he does sweeten the load with happy moments, or rather
making some of the sad moments happy ones as well. Bittersweet, maybe.
Like the final line of the book.

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard

[Here then at last comes the ending of the Fellowship of the Ring.] "We
will send word when we may, and some of us may yet meet at times; but I
fear that we shall not all be gathered together ever again." - Gimli's
farewell (Many Partings, RotK)

Count Menelvagor

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Apr 11, 2005, 5:47:54 PM4/11/05
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Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
> Count Menelvagor <Menel...@mailandnews.com> wrote:

> > tolkien excels at conveying this feeling of melancholy.
>
> Yes. Though he does sweeten the load with happy moments, or rather
> making some of the sad moments happy ones as well. Bittersweet,
maybe.
> Like the final line of the book.

yah. or the bit where frodo bids farewell to sam and foretells his
destiny "so that they may remeber the great danger and love their
beloved land all the more." the sadness does seem to predominate, esp.
perhaps in the silmarillion, much of which is a long, drawn-out account
of melkor's triumph in the wars of beleriand. of course, he is
defeated in the end; but that section is done rather hastily and even
perfunctorily(*), at least in the published Silmarillion.

iirc, aragorn remarks of the story of beren and lúthien that it is "a
sad tale, like all the tales of middle-earth", a fair commentary on
tolkien's works -- though somewhat odd in context, as the story of
beren and lúthien is NOT particularly sad.

(*)C. S. Lewis wd not approve; he wd say i was giving a speculation on
how the work was written in place of a criticism. but i think my
meaning is clear enough.

Christopher Kreuzer

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Apr 14, 2005, 3:35:19 AM4/14/05
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Count Menelvagor <Menel...@mailandnews.com> wrote:

<snip>

> iirc, aragorn remarks of the story of beren and lúthien that it is "a


> sad tale, like all the tales of middle-earth", a fair commentary on
> tolkien's works -- though somewhat odd in context, as the story of
> beren and lúthien is NOT particularly sad.

The ending is happy, but there is a lot of sadness in the tale:

"Then Beren lay upon the ground in a swoon, as one slain at once by
bliss and grief; and he fell into a sleep as it were into an abyss of
shadow, and waking he was cold as stone, and his heart barren and
forsaken. And wandering in mind he groped as one that is stricken with
sudden blindness, and seeks with hands to grasp the vanished light. Thus
he began the payment of anguish for the fate that was laid on him; and
in his fate Luthien was caught, and being immortal she shared in his
mortality, and being free received his chain; and her anguish was
greater than any other of the Eldalie has known."

Though admittedly:

"...no others of the Children of Iluvatar have had joy so great, though
the time was brief."

But then again:

"The song of Luthien before Mandos was the song most fair that ever in
words was woven, and the song most sorrowful that ever the world shall
hear. Unchanged, imperishable, it is sung still in Valinor beyond the
hearing of the world, and listening the Valar grieved."

Up and down. Back and forth. Sad and happy. A real emotional
roller-coaster. Quite appropriate for a story about love. Though talking
about this, I am reminded of the comments in Carpenter's Biography of
Tolkien, about how Tolkien would ocassionally suffer depressive mood
swings or something (I am probably paraphrasing badly). Partly to do
with his childhood losses of father and mother, I believe. I think
Carpenter describes it as an overwhelming sense or fear of loss.

Henriette

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Apr 14, 2005, 1:33:57 PM4/14/05
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AC wrote:
> >Henriette <held...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> > I have never understood Frodo's answer, so I also remain in the
dark as
> > to why Frodo's answer tells "of his growth". Please explain.
>
> Frodo had started, like all the Hobbits (though possibly to a lesser
extent)
> in a safe, enclosed, inward-looking society. The Shire Hobbits had
been
> sleeping, in a way, for centuries, not only largely unaware of the
outside
> world, but in fact rejecting it, even to the point where few members
of even
> the more adventurous clans would go to Bree. Shire society had been
living
> in a dream, a dream that required the vigilance of others to
maintain.
>
> For Frodo returning to the Shire must have been exactly like that,
like
> falling back asleep. Of course, he is quite wrong. He cannot return
to the
> dream, he is altered in ways much deeper than the other Hobbits save
perhaps
> Sam.
>

Thank you for explaining, I now clearly see your POV.

I've always thought Frodo would be happy to sort of go back to sleep
after having had to live through an awful and long-lasting nightmare,
so I never experienced it as a sad remark.

--

Henriette

Jim Samson

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Apr 25, 2005, 11:46:58 PM4/25/05
to

"Wilt" <Wi...@starfish.shape.co.uk> wrote in message
news:d3buqc$rf1$3...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
Dead? He's just talking to Bombadil, not all that far away. He has to go
through the Shire to get to the Gray Havens. If the hobbits had gotten
their asses kicked by Saruman's thugs, Gandalf would still be able to step
in on the way to the West.


Wilt

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Apr 28, 2005, 3:15:57 PM4/28/05
to

"Jim Samson" <swee...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:Z9udnTsM5Is...@comcast.com...

Yup!

> He's just talking to Bombadil, not all that far away.

And who is Tom Bombadil ??


> He has to go
> through the Shire to get to the Gray Havens.

And what are the Gray Havens?

> If the hobbits had gotten
> their asses kicked by Saruman's thugs, Gandalf would still be able to step
> in on the way to the West.
>

Nope he's dead aready.


--

Wilt,;,


the softrat

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Apr 28, 2005, 11:26:42 PM4/28/05
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On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 20:15:57 +0100, "Wilt" <Wi...@starfish.shape.co.uk>
wrote:

>"Jim Samson" <swee...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>news:Z9udnTsM5Is...@comcast.com...
>>
>> "Wilt" <Wi...@starfish.shape.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:d3buqc$rf1$3...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
>>
>> Dead?
>
>Yup!
>
>> He's just talking to Bombadil, not all that far away.
>
>And who is Tom Bombadil ??
>
>> He has to go
>> through the Shire to get to the Gray Havens.
>
>And what are the Gray Havens?
>
>> If the hobbits had gotten
>> their asses kicked by Saruman's thugs, Gandalf would still be able to step
>> in on the way to the West.
>>
>Nope he's dead aready.

Sound like someone has a very serious case of "I aint read the book"
and is try to make sense out of *The Jackson Version*.

Good Luck!

the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--

The one thing that God cannot do is cop to 'a little
mistaky-poo."

Morgil

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Apr 29, 2005, 3:04:19 AM4/29/05
to
Wilt wrote:
> "Jim Samson" <swee...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:Z9udnTsM5Is...@comcast.com...

>>Dead?


>
>
> Yup!
>
>
>>He's just talking to Bombadil, not all that far away.
>
>
> And who is Tom Bombadil ??

OOooh, I know this!! Bombadil is Orome, aka the Fourth Horseman
of the Apocalypse, aka Death!!!

>> He has to go
>>through the Shire to get to the Gray Havens.
>
>
> And what are the Gray Havens?

This one is harder... Gray Havens are the Gates of Hades and
Cirdan is Kerberos- no. Gates of Heaven and St. Peter? YES!!
The beard is a definite giveaway.

>>If the hobbits had gotten
>>their asses kicked by Saruman's thugs, Gandalf would still be able to step
>>in on the way to the West.
>>
>
> Nope he's dead aready.

It all makes sense now.

Morgil

Derek Broughton

unread,
Apr 29, 2005, 9:34:08 AM4/29/05
to
the softrat wrote:

> On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 20:15:57 +0100, "Wilt" <Wi...@starfish.shape.co.uk>
> wrote:
>>
>>> If the hobbits had gotten
>>> their asses kicked by Saruman's thugs, Gandalf would still be able to
>>> step in on the way to the West.
>>>
>>Nope he's dead aready.
>
> Sound like someone has a very serious case of "I aint read the book"
> and is try to make sense out of *The Jackson Version*.
>

My thought was that it was a case of having only seen the PJ version of "The
Fellowship of the Ring" - even someone who only knew the movies would have
figured out that Gandalf wasn't dead by the end.
--
derek

Michele Fry

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Apr 29, 2005, 12:34:22 PM4/29/05
to
In article <gnp9k2-...@othello.pointerstop.ca>, Derek Broughton
<ne...@pointerstop.ca> writes

>My thought was that it was a case of having only seen the PJ version of "The
>Fellowship of the Ring" - even someone who only knew the movies would have
>figured out that Gandalf wasn't dead by the end.

Whereas my (less charitable) thought was that this was someone who was
basically playing silly beggars... !

Michele
==
Leisure without literature is death, or rather the burial of a living
[person].
- Seneca
==

Now reading: A Question of Time - Verlyn Flieger
A Beautiful Mind - Sylvia Nasar

Derek Broughton

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Apr 29, 2005, 1:54:57 PM4/29/05
to
Michele Fry wrote:

> In article <gnp9k2-...@othello.pointerstop.ca>, Derek Broughton
> <ne...@pointerstop.ca> writes
>
>>My thought was that it was a case of having only seen the PJ version of
>>"The Fellowship of the Ring" - even someone who only knew the movies would
>>have figured out that Gandalf wasn't dead by the end.
>
> Whereas my (less charitable) thought was that this was someone who was
> basically playing silly beggars... !
>

The thought did cross my mind. I guess I was feeling charitable :-)
--
derek

Wilt

unread,
Apr 30, 2005, 3:49:51 PM4/30/05
to

"Derek Broughton" <ne...@pointerstop.ca> wrote in message
news:gnp9k2-...@othello.pointerstop.ca...

> the softrat wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 20:15:57 +0100, "Wilt" <Wi...@starfish.shape.co.uk>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >>> If the hobbits had gotten
> >>> their asses kicked by Saruman's thugs, Gandalf would still be able to
> >>> step in on the way to the West.
> >>>
> >>Nope he's dead aready.
> >
> > Sound like someone has a very serious case of "I aint read the book"
> > and is try to make sense out of *The Jackson Version*.
> >

I felt *The Jackson Version*. made a good movie, even great for people who
hadn't read the books, I was a little disappointed with some of what I felt
were unnecessary changes, but hey the guys got to make a living and lets
face it no movie lives up to its book.


> My thought was that it was a case of having only seen the PJ version of
"The
> Fellowship of the Ring" - even someone who only knew the movies would have
> figured out that Gandalf wasn't dead by the end.

Gandalf was a ring bearer, All the ring bearers pegged it shortly after the
one was destroyed . Just read the books its all there.

--
Wilt,;,


Wilt

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Apr 30, 2005, 3:55:18 PM4/30/05
to

"Morgil" <more...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d4sm9n$k9i$1...@nyytiset.pp.htv.fi...

> Wilt wrote:
> > "Jim Samson" <swee...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> > news:Z9udnTsM5Is...@comcast.com...
>
> >>Dead?
> >
> >
> > Yup!
> >
> >
> >>He's just talking to Bombadil, not all that far away.
> >
> >
> > And who is Tom Bombadil ??
>
> OOooh, I know this!! Bombadil is Orome, aka the Fourth Horseman
> of the Apocalypse, aka Death!!!

How can he be death he never ( rarely) leaves his domain people outside it
would be up in arms without death?


--
Wilt,;,


Stan Brown

unread,
Apr 30, 2005, 4:20:50 PM4/30/05
to
"Wilt" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:

>I felt *The Jackson Version*. made a good movie, even great for people who
>hadn't read the books, I was a little disappointed with some of what I felt
>were unnecessary changes, but hey the guys got to make a living and lets
>face it no movie lives up to its book.

Not necessarily. Both LOVE AND DEATH ON LONG ISLAND and BABETTE'S
FEAST were considerably better than the novellas they wre based on.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm

the softrat

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May 1, 2005, 12:54:00 AM5/1/05
to
On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 20:49:51 +0100, "Wilt" <Wi...@starfish.shape.co.uk>
wrote:

>
>I felt *The Jackson Version*. made a good movie, even great for people who
>hadn't read the books, I was a little disappointed with some of what I felt
>were unnecessary changes, but hey the guys got to make a living and lets
>face it no movie lives up to its book.
>
Obviously you are a person who will accept shit because no one will
give you better. Enjoy it! Wallow in it! But don't ask anyone to
explain it. We're too into Truth and Beauty.


the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--

Support bacteria - they're the only culture some people have.

Wilt

unread,
May 1, 2005, 2:59:52 PM5/1/05
to

"Wilt" <Wi...@starfish.shape.co.uk> wrote in message news:...

>
> "Derek Broughton" <ne...@pointerstop.ca> wrote in message
> news:gnp9k2-...@othello.pointerstop.ca...
> > the softrat wrote:
> >
> > > On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 20:15:57 +0100, "Wilt" <Wi...@starfish.shape.co.uk>
> > > wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> If the hobbits had gotten
> > >>> their asses kicked by Saruman's thugs, Gandalf would still be able
to
> > >>> step in on the way to the West.
> > >>>
> > >>Nope he's dead aready.
> > >
> > > Sound like someone has a very serious case of "I aint read the book"
> > > and is try to make sense out of *The Jackson Version*.
> > >
>
> I felt *The Jackson Version*. made a good movie, even great for people who
> hadn't read the books, I was a little disappointed with some of what I
felt
> were unnecessary changes, but hey the guys got to make a living and lets
> face it no movie lives up to its book.
>
>

Derek Broughton

unread,
May 2, 2005, 9:28:38 AM5/2/05
to
Wilt wrote:

Oh, dear. He was serious. Gandalf was _not_ dead at the time of "The
Scouring of the Shire". He went West later. Even someone who only saw the
movies would be in a position to know that. Someone who has actually read
the books should be quite clear on it.
--
derek

Larry Swain

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May 2, 2005, 12:25:11 PM5/2/05
to

Stan Brown wrote:

> "Wilt" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
>
>>I felt *The Jackson Version*. made a good movie, even great for people who
>>hadn't read the books, I was a little disappointed with some of what I felt
>>were unnecessary changes, but hey the guys got to make a living and lets
>>face it no movie lives up to its book.
>
>
> Not necessarily. Both LOVE AND DEATH ON LONG ISLAND and BABETTE'S
> FEAST were considerably better than the novellas they wre based on.


I haven't read the former, but rather enjoyed the latter, and thought
the movie was good too, but of course, they changed it.

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