What was Maedhros thinking?!!!
Mnkohrz
Morgoth, acknowledging defeat, and offering terms, even to the surrender of a
Silmaril. Then Maedhros the tall, the eldest son, persauded his brothers to
feign to treat with Morgoth and to meet his emissaries at the place appointed;
but the Noldor had as little thought of faith as had he. Wherefore each
embassy came with greater force than was agreed; but Morgoth sent the more, and
there were Balrogs. Maedhros was ambushed, and all of his company were slain;
but he himself was taken alive by the command of Morgoth, and brought to
Angband."
Every time I read this passage, the same question occurs to me: What in the
hell was Maedhros thinking?!!! Morgoth was not going to put in a personal
appearance, so there was no chance of recovering the Silmarils. There was no
point in trying to fool Morgoth into thinking that maybe the sons of Feanor
were not so clever after all - Morgoth already had nothing but contempt for his
enemies. I just can't figure out why Maedhros - who was unquestionably the
most intelligent of the brothers - would fall for such an obvious ruse. So I
put the question to fans everywhere - can anyone suggest what exactly Maedhros
had in mind when he was jawing about it with his brothers?
Mnkohrz
Bill McJohn
"Mnkohrz" <mnk...@gateway.net> wrote in message
news:20000625192433...@ng-cr1.news.gateway.net...
regarding Maedhros' botched attempt at outsmarting Morgoth by
violating the terms of parley:
> What in the hell was Maedhros thinking?!!!
Perhaps the point is that the Noldor were still experimenting with
treachery: they didn't really understand it, and they weren't very good
at it.
Bill McJohn
bil...@msn.com
Opal Drake
I am not sure either of you is fully understanding Maedhros' intent.
As Jim explains, Maedhros saw through the ruse right away. That
is why he urged his brothers to *feign to treat* with Morgoth's
emissaries. The idea was to pretend to agree to the negotiation.
As the text explains, both sides agreed to a set number of people
to include in their negotiating bodies. As the text also points
out, both Morgoth and the Elves thought to outwit the other by
sending more troops to the parley than they had agreed upon.
From Morgoth's point of view, he stood to capture or slay a number,
or even all, of the Elvish leaders that came to the parley.
Maedhros evidently thought Morgoth would send a Silmaril with his
emissaries as a gesture of good faith or something. Thus, the
Elves possibly stood to gain a Silmaril. Both were planning
treachery, but unfortunately for the Elves Morgoth happened to
send a larger force to the parley than they did, and Maedhros
was captured.
I think it was a simple case of arrogance on each side. In other
words, both Maedhros and Morgoth had such a low opinion of each
other that they thought each other stupid enough to fall for
their respective ruses.
--
******************************************************
The Opal Dragon
To E-mail me, remove 'SPAM BLOCK' from return address.
Jim
Mnkohrz wrote in message
<20000625192433...@ng-cr1.news.gateway.net>...
Then Maedhros the tall, the eldest son, persauded his brothers to
>_FEIGN_ to treat with Morgoth and to meet his emissaries at the place
appointed;
>but the _Noldor had as little thought of faith as had he_. Wherefore each
>embassy came with greater force than was agreed;
>can anyone suggest what exactly Maedhros
>had in mind when he was jawing about it with his brothers?
>
The passage clearly states that Maedhros had no intention of a proper
parley, and it seems this was just an idea to try and kill some of Morgoths
minions.
From the passage the idea that comes into my mind is that Maedhros (and the
Noldor) thought to send a party small enough so as to not be obviously an
army (so the enemy would'nt run) but deadly enough to kill whatever servants
of Morgoth they met. Morgoth did send Balrogs so it wasn't just in numbers
that the problem lay. I daresay that the Noldor went down guns blazing and
killed a good few of Morgoths servants.
Jim D
Mnkohrz
>From: "Jim" james...@ukonline.co.uk
Emphasis and sniping is mine.
>
>Mnkohrz wrote in message
>>can anyone suggest what exactly Maedhros
>>had in mind when he was jawing about it with his brothers?
>>
>The passage clearly states that Maedhros had no intention of a proper parley,
and it seems this was just an idea to try and kill some of Morgoths minions.
>From the passage the idea that comes into my mind is that Maedhros (and the
Noldor) thought to send a party small enough so as to not be obviously an army
(so the enemy would'nt run) but deadly enough to kill whatever servants of
Morgoth they met. Morgoth did send Balrogs so it wasn't just in numbers that
the problem lay. I daresay that the Noldor went down guns blazing and
>killed a good few of Morgoths servants.
>
>Jim D
I don't buy that at all. It not only defies logic, it's downright stupid.
The Noldor had just wiped out TWO of Morgoth's armies. They certainly were not
so desperate to kill a few of Morgoth's servants that they would risk life and
limb of the apparent new King of the Noldor. [Maedhros]
IMHO, there are two explanations for Maedhros' actions. The first and most
likely is that he just made a major mistake. He can be forgiven, of course -
he had just fought a ten day battle, watched his father die, assumed the burden
of the kingship of the Noldor (not knowing that Fingolfin was even then
crossing the ice into ME) and was struggling with guilt at having abandoned his
best friend Fingon. It's no wonder that he wasn't thinking straight.
The other possibility is that he had something especially sneaky up his
sleeve and it just didn't work out. It's this second possibility which bugs
me. So far the only thing I can think of is that they were planning to do the
same thing that Beren and Finrod did: Kill the enemy, disguise themselves with
their gear and sneak into Angband. I'm not sure just how plausible this is,
however. Surely the idea would have occurred to the original master of
treachery, Morgoth.
Mnkohrz
Jim
Mnkohrz wrote in message
<20000625232959...@ng-fc1.news.gateway.net>...
>>The passage clearly states that Maedhros had no intention of a proper
parley,
>and it seems this was just an idea to try and kill some of Morgoths
minions.
>>From the passage the idea that comes into my mind is that Maedhros (and
the
>Noldor) thought to send a party small enough so as to not be obviously an
army
>(so the enemy would'nt run) but deadly enough to kill whatever servants of
>Morgoth they met. Morgoth did send Balrogs so it wasn't just in numbers
that
>the problem lay. I daresay that the Noldor went down guns blazing and
>>killed a good few of Morgoths servants.
>>
>>Jim D
>
> I don't buy that at all. It not only defies logic, it's downright
stupid.
>The Noldor had just wiped out TWO of Morgoth's armies. They certainly were
not
>so desperate to kill a few of Morgoth's servants that they would risk life
and
>limb of the apparent new King of the Noldor. [Maedhros]
Rather I would say its stupid not to get an idea of the temperament of the
characters.
You seem to be forgetting the small matter of the oath of Feanor and his
sons.
So they had just killed a couple of armies? So what? They still had not
recovered any Silmarils, and were oathbound to assail anyone that witheld
them. The surrender of a Silmaril was mentioned and this would have sent
Maedhros (and the other sons) wild with 'oath rage'. Of course they were
desperate to kill more of Morgoths servants, they had just journeyed from
the blessed realm, defying Maiar, Valar, and killing elves to do so.
Risking life and limb was the part of Maedhros to decide upon, as ruler and
person risking said limbs. In his pride and anger he was fey.
> IMHO, there are two explanations for Maedhros' actions. The first and
most
>likely is that he just made a major mistake. He can be forgiven, of
course -
>he had just fought a ten day battle, watched his father die, assumed the
burden
>of the kingship of the Noldor (not knowing that Fingolfin was even then
>crossing the ice into ME) and was struggling with guilt at having abandoned
his
>best friend Fingon. It's no wonder that he wasn't thinking straight.
These are valid facts and speculations, and do not seem to conflict with my
thoughts.
> The other possibility is that he had something especially sneaky up his
>sleeve and it just didn't work out. It's this second possibility which
bugs
>me. So far the only thing I can think of is that they were planning to do
the
>same thing that Beren and Finrod did: Kill the enemy, disguise themselves
with
>their gear and sneak into Angband. I'm not sure just how plausible this
is,
>however. Surely the idea would have occurred to the original master of
>treachery, Morgoth.
This is a nice idea, but surely this would be even more suicidal than just
planning to kill a parely group and take any silmarils they might have been
stupid enough to have brought with them. This last idea would imo have
required Maedhros to be thinking even less clearly.
Jim D
Mark Wells
wrote:
>So they had just killed a couple of armies? So what? They still had not
>recovered any Silmarils, and were oathbound to assail anyone that witheld
>them. The surrender of a Silmaril was mentioned and this would have sent
>Maedhros (and the other sons) wild with 'oath rage'. Of course they were
>desperate to kill more of Morgoths servants, they had just journeyed from
>the blessed realm, defying Maiar, Valar, and killing elves to do so.
>Risking life and limb was the part of Maedhros to decide upon, as ruler and
>person risking said limbs. In his pride and anger he was fey.
Maedhros? I don't think so. He was typically one of the more
reasonable of FWS. You'll note that _he_ wasn't killed by rushing
ahead of his army in his haste to attack Morgoth.
>This is a nice idea, but surely this would be even more suicidal than just
>planning to kill a parely group and take any silmarils they might have been
>stupid enough to have brought with them. This last idea would imo have
>required Maedhros to be thinking even less clearly.
I don't think it would be completely unreasonable to try it. It
almost worked for Finrod, and the Noldor were more powerful at this
early stage than they were when Finrod tried it. (But this might make
their true identities harder to conceal: "What's that glow in your
eyes?" I don't know.)
Opal Drake
Mnkohrz wrote:
> My sentiments exactly. Maedhros was not one to let rage dictate his
> actions. Recall that he was the only one who opposed his father's decision to
> burn the ships of the Teleri. The other six kids either agreed with their
> father or else got caught up in the emotion of the moment.
> The fatal flaw in your argument, Jim, is that you assume that the Noldor
> actually believed that Morgoth would send a Silmaril with his embassy. If the
> sons of Feanor knew in advance that Morgoth was planning to betray them, then
> why would they think that he would risk the one treasure that he prized above
> all others? It was obviously a trap and Maedhros recognized it as such and
> therefore he must have had some compelling reason to accept the risk.
I think you are referring to my post wherein I state that Maedhros and the
Noldor might have believed a Silmaril would be brought to the parley.
First off, yes, Maedhros probably saw throw the trap right away. Now,
remember, the Noldor, including Maedhros, were rather haughty and thought
little of Morgoth. While Maedhros saw the trap, he may have believed
that Morgoth did not realize that he saw the trap. Maedhros knew that
Morgoth would need some sort of bait to draw the Noldor to the 'parley' -
hence the mentioning of the possible surrender of a Silmaril. Maedhros
was probably hoping that Morgoth would be foolish enough to actually send
a Silmaril as irresistible bait [remember, Maedhros and the Noldor consis-
tently underestimate Morgoth]. Thus, Maedhros pretends to go to the
parley, knowing it's a trap but having planned for it in advance, then
he might be able to regain a Silmaril, or at least he could slay some
prominent Morgothic servants. It was a gamble, and unfortunately for
Maedhros the trap was larger than he had anticipated.
Mnkohrz
>On Mon, 26 Jun 2000 19:10:23 -0700, "Jim" <james...@ukonline.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>So they had just killed a couple of armies? So what? They still had not
recovered any Silmarils, and were oathbound to assail anyone that witheld them.
The surrender of a Silmaril was mentioned and this would have sent Maedhros
(and the other sons) wild with 'oath rage'. Of course they were desperate to
kill more of Morgoths servants, they had just journeyed from the blessed realm,
defying Maiar, Valar, and killing elves to do so. Risking life and limb was the
part of Maedhros to decide upon, as ruler and person risking said limbs. In his
pride and anger he was fey.
>
>Maedhros? I don't think so. He was typically one of the more reasonable of
FWS. You'll note that _he_ wasn't killed by rushing ahead of his army in his
haste to attack Morgoth.
My sentiments exactly. Maedhros was not one to let rage dictate his
actions. Recall that he was the only one who opposed his father's decision to
burn the ships of the Teleri. The other six kids either agreed with their
father or else got caught up in the emotion of the moment.
The fatal flaw in your argument, Jim, is that you assume that the Noldor
actually believed that Morgoth would send a Silmaril with his embassy. If the
sons of Feanor knew in advance that Morgoth was planning to betray them, then
why would they think that he would risk the one treasure that he prized above
all others? It was obviously a trap and Maedhros recognized it as such and
therefore he must have had some compelling reason to accept the risk. It
stands to reason that he had some sort of scheme in mind, but, as far as I
know, Tolkien never specified exactly what it was. (Am I right or did Tolkien
actually address that specific point? If so, please let me know the specific
text. Thanks!)
Mnkohrz
Jim
Mnkohrz wrote in message
<20000626205040...@ng-fm1.news.gateway.net>...
>>Subject: Re: What was Maedhros thinking?!!!
>>From: ma...@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells)
>
>>On Mon, 26 Jun 2000 19:10:23 -0700, "Jim" <james...@ukonline.co.uk>
>>wrote:
>actually believed that Morgoth would send a Silmaril with his embassy.
I don't assume that, I feel the Noldor would realise there would be no
Silmaril present, but just its mention might be enough to get the oath
warmed.
Perhaps what I wrote wasn't clear enough.
Maedhros wasn't as bad as his brothers most of the time, but 'not as bad as'
doesnt equate to 'good'.
I still think that just wanting to kill more enemies is a perfectly
satisfactory motive.
Maybe there is something in HoME.
Jim D
Mnkohrz
[snip]
>I think you are referring to my post wherein I state that Maedhros and the
Noldor might have believed a Silmaril would be brought to the parley.
>First off, yes, Maedhros probably saw throw the trap right away. Now,
remember, the Noldor, including Maedhros, were rather haughty and thought
little of Morgoth. While Maedhros saw the trap, he may have believed that
Morgoth did not realize that he saw the trap. Maedhros knew that Morgoth would
need some sort of bait to draw the Noldor to the 'parley' - hence the
mentioning of the possible surrender of a Silmaril. Maedhros was probably
hoping that Morgoth would be foolish enough to actually send a Silmaril as
irresistible bait [remember, Maedhros and the Noldor consistently underestimate
Morgoth]. Thus, Maedhros pretends to go to the parley, knowing it's a trap but
having planned for it in advance, then he might be able to regain a Silmaril,
or at least he could slay some prominent Morgothic servants. It was a gamble,
and unfortunately for Maedhros the trap was larger than he had anticipated.
>The Opal Dragon
I concede that this is possible, but somehow it just doesn't quite fit. It
was my impression that the traits which got Feanor killed - arrogance, batle
fury and bloodlust - were not so prominent in his son Maedhros. My reasoning
might be flawed, but it seems to me that if the mere prospect of recovering a
Silmaril was enough to inflame the sons of Feanor, then Maedhros would not have
had to persuade his brothers - they would have all volunteered to go. Instead,
as I interpret the text, his brothers opposed the idea and Maedhros had to sell
them on it. IMHO, he could only do this if he had some sort of scheme which
had an excellent chance of success.
In reviewing these posts, another possibility has * finally * occurred to
me. Perhaps the Feanorians hoped to pull a reverse trap on Morgoth - to bait
him exactly as he tried to bait them. The plan would be something like this:
They would fool Morgoth into thinking that his ploy had succceded by faking the
death of Maedhros. If they could slay the embassy that Morgoth had sent and
then leave behind some of their own casaulties including one dressed in the
armor or gear of Maedhros, then Morgoth's reinforcements would discover the
battle site and conclude that the new King of the Noldor was dead. Morgoth
knew the sons of Feanor and he certainly knew that Maedhros was the most
intelligent. He would hopefully believe that the Noldor were now leaderless
and ripe for destruction and then send whatever reserve he still had in Angband
to destroy the Noldor before they could recover. In this way, the sons of
Feanor could destroy Morgoth's power for once and all. Angband would be
undefended and it would be just a fairly simple matter of killing Morgoth to
recover the Silmarils. Pretty neat, huh? :)
The two big stumbling blocks - and I tripped over both rather painfully - is
that I'm not sure who could have impersonated Maedhros even in death - wasn't
he the tallest of the Noldor? The other is whether Maedhros actually believed
that Morgoth would fall for this. He already knew that Morgoth was an
experienced con artist - he had deceived the Valar for several centuries. I
can't help but wonder if Maedhros had a healthy respect for Morgoth's talents
or if, as others argue, the characteristic Feanorian arrogance would have
blinded him on this point.
BTW, "Mogorthic?" Congrats on inventing a new term!
Mnkohrz
Sharru-ken
>>Subject: Re: What was Maedhros thinking?!!!
>>From: Opal Drake opal...@yahoo.com
>
>[snip]
[further snip]
Well, on the assumption that his appearance was unknown. But
would this be a safe assumption?
Morgoth
>knew the sons of Feanor and he certainly knew that Maedhros was
the most
>intelligent. He would hopefully believe that the Noldor were
now leaderless
>and ripe for destruction and then send whatever reserve he
still had in Angband
>to destroy the Noldor before they could recover. In this way,
the sons of
>Feanor could destroy Morgoth's power for once and all. Angband
would be
>undefended and it would be just a fairly simple matter of
killing Morgoth to
>recover the Silmarils. Pretty neat, huh? :)
<----ventures to criticise:
If only! Morgoth was a Vala, and Valar can't be killed.
Otherwise, yes, very neat. I wd have thought he would have much
more than a reserve left, though. The Orcs seem always to have
been extremely numerous. Which is a prompt for discussing their
relation to the Elves, perhaps.
> The two big stumbling blocks - and I tripped over both
rather painfully - is
>that I'm not sure who could have impersonated Maedhros even in
death - wasn't
>he the tallest of the Noldor? The other is whether Maedhros
actually believed
>that Morgoth would fall for this. He already knew that Morgoth
was an
>experienced con artist - he had deceived the Valar for several
centuries. I
>can't help but wonder if Maedhros had a healthy respect for
Morgoth's talents
>or if, as others argue, the characteristic Feanorian arrogance
would have
>blinded him on this point.
That, perhaps, and "oath rage".
>
> BTW, "Morgothic?" Congrats on inventing a new term!
>
>Mnkohrz
>
>
Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
Up to 100 minutes free!
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Opal Drake
Mnkohrz wrote:
[snip]
> I concede that this is possible, but somehow it just doesn't quite fit. It
> was my impression that the traits which got Feanor killed - arrogance, batle
> fury and bloodlust - were not so prominent in his son Maedhros. My reasoning
> might be flawed, but it seems to me that if the mere prospect of recovering a
> Silmaril was enough to inflame the sons of Feanor, then Maedhros would not have
> had to persuade his brothers - they would have all volunteered to go. Instead,
> as I interpret the text, his brothers opposed the idea and Maedhros had to sell
> them on it. IMHO, he could only do this if he had some sort of scheme which
> had an excellent chance of success.
Well, it may have been as simple as his brothers not realizing at first
the cunning of Maedhros' plan. After all, if he was more intelligent
than they, then it is logical to surmise that they may not have understood
his plan at first, and so would have resisted it. Another possibility is
that Morgoth only offered only *one* Silmaril, which would not have
been enough for the brothers. The Oath would impel them to reject this
bargaining, for they wanted no less than all three Silmarils. Maedhros
would have had to convince them to possibly try and get one now, at least,
and get the others later.
> In reviewing these posts, another possibility has * finally * occurred to
> me. Perhaps the Feanorians hoped to pull a reverse trap on Morgoth - to bait
> him exactly as he tried to bait them. The plan would be something like this:
> They would fool Morgoth into thinking that his ploy had succceded by faking the
> death of Maedhros. If they could slay the embassy that Morgoth had sent and
> then leave behind some of their own casaulties including one dressed in the
> armor or gear of Maedhros, then Morgoth's reinforcements would discover the
> battle site and conclude that the new King of the Noldor was dead. Morgoth
> knew the sons of Feanor and he certainly knew that Maedhros was the most
> intelligent. He would hopefully believe that the Noldor were now leaderless
> and ripe for destruction and then send whatever reserve he still had in Angband
> to destroy the Noldor before they could recover. In this way, the sons of
> Feanor could destroy Morgoth's power for once and all. Angband would be
> undefended and it would be just a fairly simple matter of killing Morgoth to
> recover the Silmarils. Pretty neat, huh? :)
The only thing is this is even more roundabout and complicated. A general
rule is that the more complicated the plan, the less likely it is to
succeed. There is also Occam's Razor - the simplest solution is the likeliest.
I think Morgoth simply hoped to slay the Noldor leaders, and Maedhros
simply thought Morgoth would be dumb enough to send an actual Silmaril.
[snip]
> BTW, "Mogorthic?" Congrats on inventing a new term!
Dang. I have a tendency to spell Morgoth as Mogorth when I type fast :)
Sharru-ken
>
>Sharru-ken <oxy104N...@aol.com.invalid> wrote in message
>news:1886db08...@usw-ex0101-008.remarq.com...
>>
>> Morgoth
>> >knew the sons of Feanor and he certainly knew that Maedhros
>><snipppppp>
>> <----ventures to criticise:
>>
>> If only! Morgoth was a Vala, and Valar can't be killed.
>
>Yes, they can. "Death" is of the body - Even the Ainur can
>be forcefully severed from their bodies. In the end of the
>First Age Morgoth was executed as a common criminal -
>his spirit was cast out...
>
>Aris Katsaris
>
I always tookthat to mean that he was cast out body and soul,
but not killed. I take death to be death of the entire person,
not of the body alone. Is your source HoME? There is quite a lot
of HoME I haven't read.
Aris Katsaris
Sharru-ken <oxy104N...@aol.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:1886db08...@usw-ex0101-008.remarq.com...
>
> Morgoth
> the most
> >intelligent. He would hopefully believe that the Noldor were
> now leaderless
> >and ripe for destruction and then send whatever reserve he
> still had in Angband
> >to destroy the Noldor before they could recover. In this way,
> the sons of
> >Feanor could destroy Morgoth's power for once and all. Angband
> would be
> >undefended and it would be just a fairly simple matter of
> killing Morgoth to
> >recover the Silmarils. Pretty neat, huh? :)
>
China Blue Bird of Happiness
/ but not killed. I take death to be death of the entire person,
/ not of the body alone. Is your source HoME? There is quite a lot
/ of HoME I haven't read.
Originally he was just cast out of the world. In a later writing, in HoME,
he decided that Morgoth had so disappaited himself that all they had do
was behead him. That would leave him formless and impotent within the
world.
--
CACS: Collective Against Consensual Sanity v0.123
Now a text site map! http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/cacs/
pretty? http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Studios/5079/
:)-free zone. Cthulu in '00: .../cacs/politics.html
Aris Katsaris
Sharru-ken <oxy104N...@aol.com.invalid> wrote in message
> "Aris Katsaris" <kats...@otenet.gr> wrote:
> >
> >Sharru-ken <oxy104N...@aol.com.invalid> wrote in message
> >news:1886db08...@usw-ex0101-008.remarq.com...
> >>
> >> Morgoth
> >> >knew the sons of Feanor and he certainly knew that Maedhros
>
>
> >> <----ventures to criticise:
> >>
> >> If only! Morgoth was a Vala, and Valar can't be killed.
> >
> >Yes, they can. "Death" is of the body - Even the Ainur can
> >be forcefully severed from their bodies. In the end of the
> >First Age Morgoth was executed as a common criminal -
> >his spirit was cast out...
> >
> >Aris Katsaris
> >
>
There can be no death of the entire person, since each soul
("fea") is imperishable. Death is just the severance of body
and soul - unless you refer to the human gift of leaving the
circles of the world. But in that case we would be obliged
to say that elves can't be killed either.
>Is your source HoME? There is quite a lot
> of HoME I haven't read.
Pretty much.
Aris Katsaris
Opal Drake
China Blue Bird of Happiness wrote:
>
> / I always tookthat to mean that he was cast out body and soul,
> / but not killed. I take death to be death of the entire person,
> / not of the body alone. Is your source HoME? There is quite a lot
> / of HoME I haven't read.
>
> Originally he was just cast out of the world. In a later writing, in HoME,
> he decided that Morgoth had so disappaited himself that all they had do
> was behead him. That would leave him formless and impotent within the
> world.
On a somewhat related note, I notice that when evil beings like Sauron
and Morgoth expend their power in a way contrary to the Balance of Things,
they do not get that power back. Whereas the Valar can expend their
power indefinitely, and later they 'recharge'. I always took that
as one reason why Sauron laid low during the Third Age, and why he did
not try to perform large acts of power like Morgoth did all the time.
Hmmm, well, just musing.
Aris Katsaris
Opal Drake <opal...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:395A4966...@yahoo.com...
>
>
> China Blue Bird of Happiness wrote:
> >
> > / I always tookthat to mean that he was cast out body and soul,
> > / but not killed. I take death to be death of the entire person,
> > / not of the body alone. Is your source HoME? There is quite a lot
> > / of HoME I haven't read.
> >
> > Originally he was just cast out of the world. In a later writing, in
HoME,
> > he decided that Morgoth had so disappaited himself that all they had do
> > was behead him. That would leave him formless and impotent within the
> > world.
>
> On a somewhat related note, I notice that when evil beings like Sauron
> and Morgoth expend their power in a way contrary to the Balance of Things,
> they do not get that power back. Whereas the Valar can expend their
> power indefinitely, and later they 'recharge'. I always took that
> as one reason why Sauron laid low during the Third Age, and why he did
> not try to perform large acts of power like Morgoth did all the time.
> Hmmm, well, just musing.
Balance of Things? I tend to see it somewhat differently - I don't think
that the Valar even bound their power on another creature or object.
Morgoth did so multiple times - with Ungoliant, with Carcharoth -
possibly even with Hurin and his children. And with even the
whole of creation, it seems, which is imbued with Morgoth's power
the same way that the One Ring was with Sauron's...
Aris Katsaris
Peter Knutsen
Opal Drake wrote:
> From Morgoth's point of view, he stood to capture or slay a number,
> or even all, of the Elvish leaders that came to the parley.
> Maedhros evidently thought Morgoth would send a Silmaril with his
> emissaries as a gesture of good faith or something. Thus, the
> Elves possibly stood to gain a Silmaril. Both were planning
> treachery, but unfortunately for the Elves Morgoth happened to
> send a larger force to the parley than they did, and Maedhros
> was captured.
Who did Morgoth send? Orcs, evil Humans, Balrogs or what?
> The Opal Dragon
--
Peter Knutsen
Opal Drake
"but Morgoth sent the more, and there were Balrogs." So I would say
Orcs and Balrogs. The Mannish races had not reached Beleriand yet.
Mnkohrz
>From: Opal Drake opal...@yahoo.com
>Mnkohrz wrote:
>> I concede that this is possible, but somehow it just doesn't quite fit. It
was my impression that the traits which got Feanor killed - arrogance,batle
fury and bloodlust - were not so prominent in his son Maedhros. My reasoning
might be flawed, but it seems to me that if the mere prospect of recovering a
Silmaril was enough to inflame the sons of Feanor, then Maedhros would not have
had to persuade his brothers - they would have all volunteered to go. Instead,
as I interpret the text, his brothers opposed the idea and Maedhros had to sell
them on it. IMHO, he could only do this if he had some sort of scheme which
had an excellent chance of success.
>
>Well, it may have been as simple as his brothers not realizing at first the
cunning of Maedhros' plan. After all, if he was more intelligent than they,
then it is logical to surmise that they may not have understood his plan at
first, and so would have resisted it. Another possibility is that Morgoth only
offered only *one* Silmaril, which would not have been enough for the brothers.
The Oath would impel them to reject this bargaining, for they wanted no less
than all three Silmarils. Maedhros would have had to convince them to possibly
try and get one now, at least, and get the others later.
This still strikes me as illogical. Surely Celegorm and Curufin (who were
clever enough to usurp the de facto rule of Nargothrond and manipulate Luthien
into becoming their prisoner) would have recognized whether or not his plan was
cunning. As you describe it, the plan really isn't that clever anyway.
The second possibility is much more thorny. It has been my contention all
along that Maedhros was intelligent enough to recognize the long-term
consequences of his actions. (Not that this knowledge stopped him, of course.)
Still, I think he would have recognized the danger in recovering only one
Silmaril - even if it could be done. He had seen the power of Silmaril, how it
had driven his father to deeds that he might otherwise have never done. * If *
Morgoth was dumb enough to send a Silmaril and * if * the Noldor could recover
it, then the brothers might end up fighting each other for possession of it - a
scenario that Morgoth would relish. In other words, recovering only one
Silamril might be deadly.
>
>The only thing is this is even more roundabout and complicated. A general
rule is that the more complicated the plan, the less likely it is to succeed.
There is also Occam's Razor - the simplest solution is the likeliest. I think
Morgoth simply hoped to slay the Noldor leaders, and Maedhros simply thought
Morgoth would be dumb enough to send an actual Silmaril.
>
I grant that it is complicated and unlikely to actually succeed - but
actually the plan was simply a variation on the strategy that Maedhros himself
devised in the Union of Maedhros: draw the enemy out, encircle his forces and
destroy them. And we all know how well that turned out! :)
The problem I have with your theory is that it reduces Maedhros to a
Pavlovian dog: Ring a bell or flash a jewel and he comes running, eager to do
whatever he has to earn a treat. The sons of Feanor were more complex than
that and Maedhros was the most complex of all. I just wish there were more
texts of this issue that I could consult. I've checked HoME and haven't found
anything yet.
Mnkohrz
Opal Drake
Mnkohrz wrote:
[snip]
> I grant that it is complicated and unlikely to actually succeed - but
> actually the plan was simply a variation on the strategy that Maedhros himself
> devised in the Union of Maedhros: draw the enemy out, encircle his forces and
> destroy them. And we all know how well that turned out! :)
> The problem I have with your theory is that it reduces Maedhros to a
> Pavlovian dog: Ring a bell or flash a jewel and he comes running, eager to do
> whatever he has to earn a treat. The sons of Feanor were more complex than
> that and Maedhros was the most complex of all. I just wish there were more
> texts of this issue that I could consult. I've checked HoME and haven't found
> anything yet.
There is not much more I can add to this discussion, except to
stress a couple of points.
First, whatever explanation you eventually decide upon, I would
not worry whether or not it reflects intelligently on Maedhros or not.
After all, Maedhros, for all his intelligence, was still foolish enough
to take the Oath of Feanor. While Maedhros was normally a thoughtful
fellow, when thoughts of Silmarils entered his mind he was not as
careful in his reasoning. While in his right mind he might conclude
that there was no chance Morgoth would actually risk a Silmaril in such
a manner, the passion of the Oath could conceivably compel him to
think rashly and impetuously.
The other thing to keep in mind, and this relates to the Oath
as well, is the arrogance of the Noldor. After all, we are talking
about the Elves that thumbed their collective noses at the Valar here.
While it is rather obvious to any neutral bystander that there was
basically no chance of Morgoth giving up a Silmaril, the Noldor arrogance
might have influenced Maedhros into thinking Morgoth dumb enough to
do so. For the other part, his brothers may have simply been too
prideful to negotiate with anyone, not even Morgoth. The idea of
*bargaining* with Morgoth over their father's stolen Silmarils would
surely have been an insult. They had taken the Oath and renounced
Aman all because of the Silmarils, and now the very thief that stole
them wants to haggle? In their mind, they would be incensed that
Morgoth would try to buy his safety from them, and for only one of
the three Silmarils. Even *pretending* to negotiate would be
embarrassing and insulting to them. Thus, Maedhros would have to
convince them that they should try his plan and see how it works.
Flame of the West
<snip>
I think you're all making this a lot more complicated than it has
to be. It's known that all 7 of Fëanor's sons were wankers,
and since wanking makes you insane, they had all taken leave
of their senses.
--
-- FotW
Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-Earth.
Mnkohrz
>The Opal Dragon
Whether or not you agree with that argument, it does bring up an interesting
question: Did Maedhros sacrifice his credibility with his brothers when he
convinced them to pretend to negotiate with Morgoth and subsequently got
captured? I got the impression that the Sons of Feanor were less willing to
let Maedhros call the shots after that even tho he paid for it with the loss of
his hand.
So what do y'all think?
Mnkohrz
>From: Flame of the West jsol...@erols.com
>Date: 07/02/2000 12:14 AM Central Daylight Time
You speak with some authority on this issue. Are you by any chance speaking
from personal experience?
Mnkohrz - a devil's advocate in search of a devil to advocate
Flame of the West
> I got the impression that the Sons of Feanor were less willing to
> let Maedhros call the shots after that even tho he paid for it with the loss of
> his hand.
> So what do y'all think?
I think there's no one less inspirational than a wanker
with only one hand.
Morgil
Mnkohrz kirjoitti viestissä
<20000702014814...@ng-fz1.news.gateway.net>...
>
> Whether or not you agree with that argument, it does bring up an
interesting
>question: Did Maedhros sacrifice his credibility with his brothers when he
>convinced them to pretend to negotiate with Morgoth and subsequently got
to
>let Maedhros call the shots after that even tho he paid for it with the
loss of
>his hand.
> So what do y'all think?
>
to negotiation offer. He needed to show his brothers that he was
an able and cunning leader and more importantly he couldn´t give
Morgoth a possible propaganda weapon. If he had refused, then
later Morgoth could have claimed that *he* was willing to search
for a peaceful solution but the blood-thirsty elves refused and so
the whole thing is their fault.
I think his brothers were more pissed off by his decision to give
leadership to Fingolfin then anything else.
Morgil
Morgil
Flame of the West kirjoitti viestissä <395ECFCA...@erols.com>...
>
><snip>
>
>I think you're all making this a lot more complicated than it has
>to be. It's known that all 7 of Fëanor's sons were wankers,
>and since wanking makes you insane, they had all taken leave
>of their senses.
>
Then the pressure got unbareable and you had to burst it off.
Still it was a noble effort and should be appreciated.
Congratulations,
Morgil
Morgil
Flame of the West kirjoitti viestissä <395F43C9...@erols.com>...
>Mnkohrz wrote:
>
>> I got the impression that the Sons of Feanor were less willing to
>> let Maedhros call the shots after that even tho he paid for it with the
loss of
>> his hand.
>> So what do y'all think?
>
>with only one hand.
>
It must have been harder for you then I thought. . .
Morgil
David Sulger
>since wanking makes you insane
Insane?
I thought it made one go blind.
--Dave
PaulB
or...@webtv.net (David Sulger) writes:
I thought it gave you hairy palms.
PaulB
"...it is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is
in us for the succor of those years wherein we are set, uprooting evil in the
fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to
till."LotR V:9