Does Sam have what it takes to be a murderer?
Tristan Miller
Here's a question somewhat related to the discussion in the "alternative
ending" thread: Had Gollum not been present at Mount Doom, would Sam have
dutifully pushed Frodo into the chasm once he had announced his intention
to claim the Ring?
One might simply argue that Sam is too loyal to murder his beloved master.
But consider that Sam has long witnessed and been distressed over the
detrimental effects of the Ring on Frodo, and has an intense loathing for
the Ring-corrupted Gollum. Sam knows that if his master claims the Ring,
he will cease to be the Frodo his knows and loves. He will become
corrupt, power-mad, and, in the unlikely event that he isn't immediately
captured by Sauron, may over time degenerate into something akin to the
hideous Gollum. Knowing then that Frodo as he knows him cannot be saved,
and (less importantly) that he would be saving all of Middle-Earth, Sam
would regretfully acknowledge that his only choice would be to kill Frodo
by pushing him off the ledge.
Sound plausible?
Regards,
Tristan
--
_
_V.-o Tristan Miller [en,(fr,de,ia)] >< Space is limited
/ |`-' -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= <> In a haiku, so it's hard
(7_\\ http://www.nothingisreal.com/ >< To finish what you
aelfwina
"Tristan Miller" <psych...@nothingisreal.com> wrote in message
news:1647610.E...@ID-187157.News.Individual.NET...
> Greetings.
>
> Here's a question somewhat related to the discussion in the "alternative
> ending" thread: Had Gollum not been present at Mount Doom, would Sam have
> dutifully pushed Frodo into the chasm once he had announced his intention
> to claim the Ring?
>
> One might simply argue that Sam is too loyal to murder his beloved master.
> But consider that Sam has long witnessed and been distressed over the
> detrimental effects of the Ring on Frodo, and has an intense loathing for
> the Ring-corrupted Gollum. Sam knows that if his master claims the Ring,
> he will cease to be the Frodo his knows and loves. He will become
> corrupt, power-mad, and, in the unlikely event that he isn't immediately
> captured by Sauron, may over time degenerate into something akin to the
> hideous Gollum. Knowing then that Frodo as he knows him cannot be saved,
> and (less importantly) that he would be saving all of Middle-Earth, Sam
> would regretfully acknowledge that his only choice would be to kill Frodo
> by pushing him off the ledge.
>
> Sound plausible?
Very, very *remotely* plausible, and only if Sam took himself over the edge
at the same time. Personally, I do not believe he could have brought
himself to do that to Frodo. On the other hand, I can see him cheerfully
shoving Gollum in after he bit it off, if he had not been clumsy enough to
dance over the edge.
Barbara
robert j. kolker
Tristan Miller wrote:
> One might simply argue that Sam is too loyal to murder his beloved master.
> But consider that Sam has long witnessed and been distressed over the
> detrimental effects of the Ring on Frodo, and has an intense loathing for
> the Ring-corrupted Gollum. Sam knows that if his master claims the Ring,
> he will cease to be the Frodo his knows and loves. He will become
> corrupt, power-mad, and, in the unlikely event that he isn't immediately
> captured by Sauron, may over time degenerate into something akin to the
> hideous Gollum. Knowing then that Frodo as he knows him cannot be saved,
> and (less importantly) that he would be saving all of Middle-Earth, Sam
> would regretfully acknowledge that his only choice would be to kill Frodo
> by pushing him off the ledge.
If Sam were ready to push Frode into the fire, he would have joined him.
I doubt whether Sam could live with himself if he pushed Frodo in.
Bob Kolker
The American
"Tristan Miller" <psych...@nothingisreal.com> wrote in message
news:1647610.E...@ID-187157.News.Individual.NET...
>
> Here's a question somewhat related to the discussion in the "alternative
> ending" thread: Had Gollum not been present at Mount Doom, would Sam have
> dutifully pushed Frodo into the chasm once he had announced his intention
> to claim the Ring?
>
> One might simply argue that Sam is too loyal to murder his beloved master.
> But consider that Sam has long witnessed and been distressed over the
> detrimental effects of the Ring on Frodo, and has an intense loathing for
> the Ring-corrupted Gollum. Sam knows that if his master claims the Ring,
> he will cease to be the Frodo his knows and loves. He will become
> corrupt, power-mad, and, in the unlikely event that he isn't immediately
> captured by Sauron, may over time degenerate into something akin to the
> hideous Gollum. Knowing then that Frodo as he knows him cannot be saved,
> and (less importantly) that he would be saving all of Middle-Earth, Sam
> would regretfully acknowledge that his only choice would be to kill Frodo
> by pushing him off the ledge.
>
> Sound plausible?
>
Sam would have tried.
Not sure if he could have though.
Even Frodo's limited understanding of how to use the Ring might have been
enough to keep Sam away.
Sam knew they weren't going to survive after the Ring was destroyed anyway
and I believe that he loved Frodo enough to try to push him in even if it
meant both their lives indoing so.
T.A.
Chris Kern
<psych...@nothingisreal.com> posted the following:
>Greetings.
>
>Here's a question somewhat related to the discussion in the "alternative
>ending" thread: Had Gollum not been present at Mount Doom, would Sam have
>dutifully pushed Frodo into the chasm once he had announced his intention
>to claim the Ring?
It's certainly possible. For a very long time during the writing of
the Lord of the Rings, Tolkien thought that Sam would push Gollum into
the lava to kill him (in some outlines Sam also died himself).
It was only with the actual writing of the initial draft of the Mount
Doom chapter that he came up with the current story (or as he would
say, "found out what really happened").
Now wait, I misread your post. I think there's a very small chance
that he would have killed *Frodo*, perhaps even nonexistent.
-Chris
Carl032163
<psych...@nothingisreal.com> posted the following:
>Greetings.
>
>Here's a question somewhat related to the discussion in the "alternative
>ending" thread: Had Gollum not been present at Mount Doom, would Sam have
>dutifully pushed Frodo into the chasm once he had announced his intention
>to claim the Ring?
Sam's essential quality, his essence if you will, was his loyalty to Frodo. The
question is whether or not he could have come to the conclusion that it would
have been better for Frodo to be dead than a slave to the ring. I thinks its
about 50/50 whether or not he could have.
Igenlode Wordsmith
[snip]
> Sam knows that if his master claims the Ring, he will cease to be the Frodo
> his knows and loves. He will become corrupt, power-mad, and, in the
> unlikely event that he isn't immediately captured by Sauron, may over time
> degenerate into something akin to the hideous Gollum. Knowing then that
> Frodo as he knows him cannot be saved, and (less importantly) that he would
> be saving all of Middle-Earth, Sam would regretfully acknowledge that his
> only choice would be to kill Frodo by pushing him off the ledge.
>
the ledge himself...
--
Igenlode <Igenl...@nym.alias.net> Bookwraith unabashed
The moment you stop being polite, you lose credibility in what you say.
Eric Schmidt
>
> Here's a question somewhat related to the discussion in the "alternative
> ending" thread: Had Gollum not been present at Mount Doom, would Sam have
> dutifully pushed Frodo into the chasm once he had announced his intention
> to claim the Ring?
I think even if Sam tried he would find himself wanting the Ring for
himself, just like Frodo. He couldn't have deliberately destroyed the
Ring.
--
Eric Schmidt
the softrat
<Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote:
>I can certainly see Sam flinging his arms around Frodo and jumping off
>the ledge himself...
Is that where Frodo's head turns all the way around four times and
spews forth two quarts of oatmeal?
"I've got you now, My Pretty!"
the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
"When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend." - U.S.
Army training notice
robert j. kolker
Igenlode Wordsmith wrote:
> I can certainly see Sam flinging his arms around Frodo and jumping off
> the ledge himself...
That is how I see it, also. Sam is wise enough to do what has to be
done, but he could not bear to live and have Frodo die. It would have
killed Sam anyway.
Bob Kolker
Gregg Cattanach
No. Sam is on that short list of people that had actually voluntarily given
up the Ring after having used it. Sam hated the Ring because of what it had
been doing to Frodo. If he could have thrown himself into the fire with the
Ring to save Frodo, he would have. He knew that even his vision as the
master gardener of Mordor was a silly fraud and a deception of the Ring.
All IMHO, of course.
--
Gregg C.
John Adcox
in Sam would have arisen, and he would have pushed Frodo into the fire --- and
that he would have followed. I am awfully glad that didn't happen, though.
Thankfully, Providence works overtime in Middle-earth.
___
John Adcox
Click below for Mythology, Philosophy, Literature, Writing References and more.
http://jadcox.home.mindspring.com
tuol...@yahoo.com
Nah! Sam would have pushed Frodo in, dusted his hands and said 'Thats'
that then'. Returning to the Shire the hard way after refusing a lift
from the unnatural birds, he would have married Rosy and begot his
first son Frodo during kinky "I'm Ringbearer Destroyer" roleplay in his
bedroom.
Belba Grubb from Stock
>Greetings.
>
>Here's a question somewhat related to the discussion in the "alternative
>ending" thread: Had Gollum not been present at Mount Doom, would Sam have
>dutifully pushed Frodo into the chasm once he had announced his intention
>to claim the Ring?
>
>One might simply argue that Sam is too loyal to murder his beloved master.
>But consider that Sam has long witnessed and been distressed over the
>detrimental effects of the Ring on Frodo, and has an intense loathing for
>the Ring-corrupted Gollum. Sam knows that if his master claims the Ring,
>he will cease to be the Frodo his knows and loves. He will become
>corrupt, power-mad, and, in the unlikely event that he isn't immediately
>captured by Sauron, may over time degenerate into something akin to the
>hideous Gollum. Knowing then that Frodo as he knows him cannot be saved,
>and (less importantly) that he would be saving all of Middle-Earth, Sam
>would regretfully acknowledge that his only choice would be to kill Frodo
>by pushing him off the ledge.
>
>Sound plausible?
It would, if we hadn't already seen Sam weighing all that up in the
mountains.
He flung the Quest and all his decisions away, and fear and
doubt with them. He knew now where his place was and had
been: at his master's side, though what he could do there was
not clear.
Granted that was after he realized Frodo was alive but captured by the
Orcs. But Sam is in a very passive frame of mind at the Sammath Naur;
quite apart from having just had a blow to the head, I think it's all
just too much for him. He's just watching it all unfold in front of
him. He wouldn't suddenly come alive to the Quest and murder his
beloved Frodo to fulfill the Quest, especially not after he'd already
thrown the Quest aside up in the mountaints. He would do whatever
Frodo told him to do, even though he'd know it was wrong; the order
would probably be something like go fight the Nazgul coming to
retrieve the Ring, which of course wouldn't work at all. He'd fall at
the hands of the Nazgul, or else he'd join Frodo in a leap into the
Fire, thus accomplishing the Quest but not as a happy ending.
Barb