Saurons ring did NOT go to Numenor
Sullys Maze
had his ring with him when he surrendered himself to Ar-Pharazon.
No way.
The text is very clear that he took up his ring again in Barad-dur
after his spirit fled the ruin of Numenor. This is as clear as it
can be stated other than JRRT stating that he left his ring in
Barad-dur when he surrendered.
The ringwraiths could certainly be trusted with the keeping of his
ring as they were totally subject to Sauron's will alone and were
most trustworthy of all his servants. This was stated time and time
again throughout the literature. There was only one way the
ringwraiths could change their allegiance, that was if another
strong will took up the ring. Ar-Pharazon and the power of Numenor
could certainly seize the ring by force from Sauron if he had it
with him upon surrender.
Sauron's hope was through guile, that he could destroy Numenor
through their own pride and fear. Not all of Sauron's strength
and ability was invested in the ring.
Mike
Sullys Maze
>There have been a large number of posts discussing ways that Sauron
>had his ring with him when he surrendered himself to Ar-Pharazon.
>
>No way.
>
>The text is very clear that he took up his ring again in Barad-dur
>after his spirit fled the ruin of Numenor. This is as clear as it
>can be stated other than JRRT stating that he left his ring in
>Barad-dur when he surrendered.
>
(deleted)
Then the very next time I read rabt:
>Item: rec.arts.books.tolkien 2044, Wed, 12 M, 30 lines. (9 items left)
>From: t...@netcom.com (Mike Garvey)
>Subject: Re: The Ring in the bottom of the ocean ?
>
>This is what the FAQ to this newsgroup had to say on the matter:
>
>27) What happened to the Ring when Numenor was destroyed?
>
> Nothing. Sauron carried it back to Middle-earth, though there
>might be some question as to how he managed it. Tolkien said he did,
>and Tolkien should know: "Though reduced to 'a spirit of hatred borne
>on a dark wind', I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying
>off the One Ring, upon which his power of dominating minds now largely
>depended." (Letters, p. 280).
> In fact, as far as we know all the spiritual beings (Valar and
>Maia) were perfectly capable of manipulating physical objects.
oops. Where's my 'undo' key?
I won't argue with JRRT.
Mike
Dave Wyble
>There have been a large number of posts discussing ways that Sauron
>had his ring with him when he surrendered himself to Ar-Pharazon.
>
>No way.
>
>ring as they were totally subject to Sauron's will alone and were
I see only two reasons the Nazgul were subject to his will:
1) he wore the One while they wore their rings, the One
dominates the Nine, the wearer of the One controls
the wearers of the Nine. This was the case until
the end of the Second Age, when Isildur took the One.
or
2) he held the Nine, to which they were enslaved. This is
case in the Third Age, when Sauron held the Nine, but
did not hold the One. (clearly stated in UT)
It seems to me that to control the Nazgul, he either brought the One or
the Nine to Numenor with him. I don't think either is the case. If
the One was left behind, it was not in the keeping of the Nazgul.
Perhaps it was somehow well-hidden (an insane idea, I agree, especially
from Sauron's point of view).
Then again, who would look for it? The only ones who knew about it
were the ranking Elves. They have the use of the Three, and probably
don't even want to know where the One is. If they find the One, they
would have to attempt to destroy it, and effectively destroy the
Three. So why look for something they don't want to find?
Dave Wyble The use of COBOL cripples the mind;
Xerox Corp its teaching should, therefore,
drw.w...@xerox.com be regarded as a criminal offense.
dwy...@spectrum.xerox.com - Dijkstra
Christopher C. Arp
1. that they were only subject to his will because he had the One
I disagree, Sauron didn't have the One during the Third Age and yet the riders were his to command.
2
As for who held the Nine believe the recent argument rages on, I
believe the Nazgul still held them, but regardless, if he could not
trust the Nazgul, why would he send them to find it? There was an
chapter in UT that describes the serch for the Ring, check it out.
--->Chris
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Smaug
<ka...@minerva.cis.yale.edu> "Never laugh at live Dragons"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian Cuttler
>Not so, the Nazgul were Sauron's most faithful servants.
>
>1. that they were only subject to his will because he had the One
>
> I disagree, Sauron didn't have the One during the Third Age and yet the riders were his to command.
>
The Nazgul where subject to the "will" of Sauron, the will of Sauron (in
my interpretation of course) was split between what we generally think
of as Sauron and the Ring. Only if someone was able to tame the ring
and control Sauron would they be able to control the Nazgul.
>2
> As for who held the Nine believe the recent argument rages on, I
> believe the Nazgul still held them, but regardless, if he could not
> trust the Nazgul, why would he send them to find it? There was an
> chapter in UT that describes the serch for the Ring, check it out.
>
> --->Chris
I still have to believe the rings of power had a diminished effect with
distance. I believe the Nine where incapable or removing their rings
because that connection to Sauron was all that kept them "alive".
I have seen quotes trying to support and refute the argument of where
the nine-rings where (Sauron or Nazgul) - how about thinking of the
cause and effect. What is the effect of removing the rings from the
9-riders? What is the effect on a persons will and life expectancy if
even the The Ring is removed from someones presents (Boromir? Bilbo?)?
--
Brian R Cuttler | bitnet: sysbrc@albnyvms
Senior System Programmer | internet: sys...@uacsc1.albany.edu
State Univ of NY at Albany | phone: 518-442-3906 fax: 518-442-3697
Dave Wyble
>Not so, the Nazgul were Sauron's most faithful servants.
They were trusted only because Sauron had the Nine. They were wnslaved
the the Rings, not to the One or to Sauron. (yes I know, they were
enslaved to the One only by indirection - the One controlled the Nine,
the Nine controlled the Nazgul.
>
>1. that they were only subject to his will because he had the One
>
> I disagree, Sauron didn't have the One during the Third Age and yet the
> riders were his to command.
He didn't have the One, but he did have the Nine.
>
>2
> As for who held the Nine believe the recent argument rages on, I
> believe the Nazgul still held them, but regardless, if he could not
> trust the Nazgul, why would he send them to find it? There was an
> chapter in UT that describes the serch for the Ring, check it out.
>
Please, anyone who is still an unbeliever, read the chapter entitled
"Hunt for the Ring" in the Unfinished Tales. If you can read this and
still think the Nazgul hold the Nine during the Third Age, I would be
surprised if you could operate the computer at which you are sitting to
rebut this post. ;)
Really, it is very clearly stated, there can be no misinterpretation.
If I had the text here, I would quote it directly, (which I think I did
in a previous post).
Bill Seurer
|> In article 1sskgd...@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU, arp-chr...@yale.edu (Christopher C. Arp) writes:
|> >Not so, the Nazgul were Sauron's most faithful servants.
|>
|> They were trusted only because Sauron had the Nine. They were wnslaved
|> the the Rings, not to the One or to Sauron. (yes I know, they were
|> enslaved to the One only by indirection - the One controlled the Nine,
|> the Nine controlled the Nazgul.
Whether the Nazgul had the rings or not I think this is wrong. If they
were enslaved to the One why couldn't Frodo just order them around during
the fight beneath Weathertop or at the Fords?
Why would Sauron have sent the Nazgul after the One? There they are at
the Fords, the Witch King slays Frodo and takes the One. If the Nazgul are
enslaved to the Nine which are enslaved to the One....hey! He's now in
charge! Who cares if Sauron has his ring. He's got Sauron's ring!
I think that the Nazgul were enslaved to Sauron through the rings (and
the one). Once they were enslaved Sauron could control them One
ring or not.
Now if someone like Saruman, Gandalf, or Galadrial had the one they could
probably have wrested control of the Nazgul from Sauron.
- Bill Seurer Language and Compiler Development IBM Rochester, MN
Internet: BillS...@vnet.ibm.com America On-Line: BillS...@aol.com
Flossy the Camel
>were enslaved to the One why couldn't Frodo just order them around during
>the fight beneath Weathertop or at the Fords?
Frodo would not have the power to do so. Remember, Frodo did not have
the power to seek the other wearers of rings. The ringwraiths were all
powerful when they were living, and so would be too powerful for most
mere mortals to control. Besides, they were being guided by Sauron's
will. IMHO, only Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond, and perhaps Cirdan could
have done so. However, doing so would eventually turn them to evil.
>
>Why would Sauron have sent the Nazgul after the One? There they are at
>the Fords, the Witch King slays Frodo and takes the One. If the Nazgul are
>enslaved to the Nine which are enslaved to the One....hey! He's now in
>charge! Who cares if Sauron has his ring. He's got Sauron's ring!
Hmm, there has been a lot of debate about this. IMO, even if the
witch-king got the One, Sauron would still have power over him, and so
would be able to steer the Witch-King back to Mordor. After all,
Sauron is Maiar, whereas the W-K was human....
>I think that the Nazgul were enslaved to Sauron through the rings (and
>the one). Once they were enslaved Sauron could control them One
>ring or not.
Yep. The Nazgul also had power over Frodo, even though he was in
possession of the One. He was "commanded" to put on the ring on
Weathertop, and just before he met Gildor Inglorion. I would say that
the power differential was similar between Frodo and Nazgul, and
Sauron and Nazgul (please don't flame me too much!!!!)
>Now if someone like Saruman, Gandalf, or Galadrial had the one they could
>probably have wrested control of the Nazgul from Sauron.
Definately. However, they would be set up as the new Dark Lord/Lady,
as I'm sure that everyone knows. Elrond, Gandalf and Galadriel all admit that
this would be so. Saruman doesn't, but is crrupted by desire for the
ring.
Andy Linkin aka Flossy the Camel
pe9...@ox.ac.uk / acli...@nyx.cs.du.edu
Dave Wyble - MPI
What is missing from this discussion is the fact that Sauron is still
in the loop (accepting for the time being that he holds the Nine, still
of some contention among some unbelievers ;). He can probably
prevent anyone, except as you say, one of the Wise, from controlling
the Nine by use of the One, hence the Nazgul are safely in his
control. "Anyone" here includes (IMHO) the Witch-King and certainly
Frodo or Gollum.
We have a difference of opinion in that I don't think Sauron could
control the Nazgul without holding the Nine, but I think there are no
specific quotes to resolve it, so I will not continue.
Drozinski Tim
>In article <1993May13.1...@spectrum.xerox.com>, dwy...@spectrum.xerox.com (Dave Wyble) writes:
>Whether the Nazgul had the rings or not I think this is wrong. If they
>were enslaved to the One why couldn't Frodo just order them around during
>the fight beneath Weathertop or at the Fords?
>Why would Sauron have sent the Nazgul after the One? There they are at
>the Fords, the Witch King slays Frodo and takes the One. If the Nazgul are
>enslaved to the Nine which are enslaved to the One....hey! He's now in
>charge! Who cares if Sauron has his ring. He's got Sauron's ring!
Yes, but remember how the One was created. Sauron put the greater part of
his power into the ring. I look at it as the ring being the seat of his
soul. That is why it ever betrays its bearer in its quest to return to
Sauron. By claiming the ring, one would have to first defeat the power
retained in the ring. Sauron's spirit inside the ring would fight for
control of the possessor's mind.
>I think that the Nazgul were enslaved to Sauron through the rings (and
>the one). Once they were enslaved Sauron could control them One
>ring or not.
This is exactly the reason why they wouldn't attempt to claim the One. The
ring is just an extension of Sauron's power, no different from Sauron himself.
>Now if someone like Saruman, Gandalf, or Galadrial had the one they could
>probably have wrested control of the Nazgul from Sauron.
Well, maybe, but I think that they would be corrupted, just as Galadriel
told Frodo when he offered her the ring.
--
*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^
Droz droz...@db.erau.edu
"Chew electric death, snarling cur!" Spaceman Spiff
Standard disclaimers apply to everything I say... I tend to piss people off!
Steven Janowsky
> Frodo would not have the power to do so. Remember, Frodo did not have
> the power to seek the other wearers of rings.
Frodo had very limited power as he simply carried the ring (even when he
wore it). He never `claimed' it as his own (until the end) which would
be necessary to obtain the ring's (full) power.
SJ