Anduril, magic or not?
Andrew Peter Makrigiannis
I was wondering what people's thoughts on Aragorn's sword are? Was this
blade magical? Did it have any inherent powers like Sting or the
Westernesse blade that Merry had? I seem to remember Aragorn striking down
an orc chieftain in Moria. I think it said that there was a bright flame
or something when he smote his helm. Sounds like magic to me. Even though
some people claim it is just an heirloom.
Shimpei Yamashita
Sure it's magical. It gives +4 strength, activates for fireball, fire
brand, slay evil....
Oh wait, wrong newsgroup. Sorry.
Seriously, wasn't Anduril described as glowing red with fire somewhere?
Whatever it was, it was a very potent sword; I don't have the books with
me now, but I think it was described during the Battle of Pelennor as
being just as deadly as Narsil of old. I don't see why people get the idea
that it was a weak old heirloom (aside from the fact that 3000 year old
swords in real life do tend to be fragile museum pieces); Aragorn may not
be shown activating the magic sword for fireballs, but he sure isn't
depicted as being hampered by a bad sword whenever he charges into battle.
--
Shimpei Yamashita <http://socrates.caltech.edu/%7Eshimpei/>
Paul D. Schreiner
actually, i think the edges of anduril did glow with blue fire, much
like sting did...although i don't have the books on me at the moment
either (lent out...*sigh*). one would also not be out of line in
presuming that if narsil had been enchanted, that when the blade was
reforged by the elves in rivendell (which, if i remember correctly, took
the entire period of time from the council to the departure of the nine
walkers) they re-enchanted it...
Timothy Friest
Andrew Peter Makrigiannis wrote:
>
> I was wondering what people's thoughts on Aragorn's sword are? Was this
> blade magical? Did it have any inherent powers like Sting or the
> Westernesse blade that Merry had? I seem to remember Aragorn striking down
> an orc chieftain in Moria. I think it said that there was a bright flame
> or something when he smote his helm. Sounds like magic to me. Even though
> some people claim it is just an heirloom.
I would say that Tolkien would have said that it was not "magical"
since he didn't really believe in "magic"... However, I would say
that it had a magical quality to it...
Anduril is very similar to Excaliber. I don't remember Excaliber
having any special powers except that it was given by "some tart in
a lake" (Monty Python) and was the rightful sword of the King of
All England.
Anduril was just such a weapon. It proclaimed Aragorn as King of Gondor
and Arnor. It was the "flame of the west". Whether it actually flamed
is debatable.
For instance, when Gandalf was facing down the Witch King at the gates
of Gondor, there is a part where a white light was revealed when he
parted his cloak... Was he "glowing" with a magical/angelic power
or was it just the sun striking him (which was remarkable since the
sun hadn't shown for days).
Tolkien leaves these questions to the reader. We want to think Gandalf
glowed from a power within, but it doesn't really matter because the
sun shining on him at that moment had the same affect on the minds of
the viewers.
Phil Vogel
One Timothy Friest, known to SMTP servers everywhere as
fri...@saic.alaska.net, said...
>Anduril is very similar to Excaliber. I don't remember Excaliber
>having any special powers except that it was given by "some tart in
>a lake" (Monty Python) and was the rightful sword of the King of
>All England.
Some renditions talk about the scabbard having some extraordinary powers:
when Arthur wore it, he couldn't lose any blood in battle.
--
Later...
----------------------------
Phil Vogel
pvo...@postoffice.ptd.net
----------------------------
Pittman Ware
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>> Seriously, wasn't Anduril described as glowing red
>> with fire somewhere?
Yes, but that was in the fellowship at Weathertop, he dipped his sword
in the fire.
Pittman
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Yes, but that was in the fellowship at Weathertop, he dipped his
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Ben Kaufman
Andrew Peter Makrigiannis wrote:
>
> I was wondering what people's thoughts on Aragorn's sword are? Was this
> blade magical? Did it have any inherent powers like Sting or the
> Westernesse blade that Merry had? I seem to remember Aragorn striking down
> an orc chieftain in Moria. I think it said that there was a bright flame
> or something when he smote his helm. Sounds like magic to me. Even though
> some people claim it is just an heirloom.
Don't forget that the Elven-smiths that worked in Rivendale were among
the last remaining Noldor in ME. These were the same Elves who worked
with Celebrimor in Eregion during the Second Age and forged the Three,
the Seven and the Nine, along with the lesser rings. Those that managed
to survive the War between Sauron and the Elves lived in Rivendale, and
at the end of the Third Age some had still not yet sought the Havens. A
few may have even worked with Feanor in the Far West.
JRRT would not have called the Elven-smith's work "magic" but Hobbits
like Sam Gamgee (and readers like me) probably would. Remember Narsil
and Aiglos were together enough to take down Sauron (I believe that
Elrond says that no opponent could withstand these weapons). And
Anduril is referred to as "Narsil reforged" more than once.
BTW, while we're given no specific feats of "magic" that Anduril was
able to perform (unlike, e.g., Sting), at least Anduril's scabbard seems
to be "magical" in the classic sense. Galadriel tells Aragorn that no
sword drawn from this scabbard will ever be broken in battle, even in
defeat.
Bbben
Aragorn
Pittman Ware (pitt...@geocities.com) wrote:
: >> Seriously, wasn't Anduril described as glowing red
: >> with fire somewhere?
: Yes, but that was in the fellowship at Weathertop, he dipped his sword
: in the fire.
: Pittman
Uhhh no... Aragorn's blade wasn't reforged till Rivendel =) He did not use
his sword at the Weathertop. He used two branches set on fire =)
--
Aragorn
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
-J.R.R Tolkien
FeanorKing
> I was wondering what people's thoughts on Aragorn's sword are? Was this
> blade magical? Did it have any inherent powers like Sting or the
> Westernesse blade that Merry had? I seem to remember Aragorn striking
down
> an orc chieftain in Moria. I think it said that there was a bright flame
> or something when he smote his helm. Sounds like magic to me. Even
though
> some people claim it is just an heirloom.
Yes! Or at least what we would call 'magic,' although J.R.R.T. was
reluctant to call it that; I believe he called it 'virtue' or 'power.'
Anduril was forged by Telchar, whose other works of art include Angrist,
which was the sharp knife used by Beren to cut one of the Silmarils from
Morgoth's crown. I think I remember reading in the Silmarillion that
Angrist could cut through thick beams of wood easily, which might specify
some sort of virtue.
As I recall, that in the Battle Helm's Deep, Anduril shone brightly when
Aragorn unsheathed it. Wasn't Anduril supposed to shine with the Sun
during the day, and the Moon at night? Anduril means 'Flame of the West'
and its original name, Narsil, meant "White Flame." This seems to
implicate some special ability.
Also, I think there were references to Anduril's light in the Last
Alliance of Elves and Men. But one reference I'm sure I remember, was
that someone said something like 'Narsil was broken in two, and it will
shine no more' or 'its light is gone.' That may be in 'The Council of
Elrond,' not sure.
Feanor
Giampaolo Canzonieri
If my memory doesn't fail me Anduril, although a sword of high dignity,
was anyway human-forged and so without any magical power (I don't
remember any magic coming out but from elves).
Ciao
Giampaolo, Rome, Italy
Colin Rosenthal
On Thu, 01 May 1997 23:00:43 -0700, Giampaolo Canzonieri <md2...@mclink.it> wrote:
>Paul D. Schreiner wrote:
>>
>> actually, i think the edges of anduril did glow with blue fire, much
>> like sting did...
If Anduril acted as an orc-detector then Aragorn wouldn't have had to
ask Frodo to draw Sting to see if there were any Orcs around.
--
Colin Rosenthal
High Altitude Observatory
Boulder, Colorado
rose...@hao.ucar.edu
Aragorn
Giampaolo Canzonieri (md2...@mclink.it) wrote:
: If my memory doesn't fail me Anduril, although a sword of high dignity,
: was anyway human-forged and so without any magical power (I don't
: remember any magic coming out but from elves).
: Giampaolo, Rome, Italy
I believe your memory does not serve you right =) Gonna go get my books
but I'd bet $100 right now that neither Narsil was forged by humans nor
Anduril reforged by them. Pretty sure that the elves did the work both
times.
Quark
>Paul D. Schreiner wrote:
>>
>> actually, i think the edges of anduril did glow with blue fire, much
>> like sting did...although i don't have the books on me at the moment
>> either (lent out...*sigh*). one would also not be out of line in
>> presuming that if narsil had been enchanted, that when the blade was
>> reforged by the elves in rivendell (which, if i remember correctly, took
>> the entire period of time from the council to the departure of the nine
>> walkers) they re-enchanted it...
>If my memory doesn't fail me Anduril, although a sword of high dignity,
>was anyway human-forged and so without any magical power (I don't
>remember any magic coming out but from elves).
Narsil was originally forged by Telchar of Nogrod, a dwarf. He also
forged Angrist, the knife that Beren took from Curufin, and then used
to prise a Silmaril from Morgoths Crown.
AFAIK, Telchar's work was considered to be the best in ME (as regards
swords).
Quark
Death comes to us all. When he came to Mort, he offered him
a job. - Mort, by Terry Pratchett
I've got green eyes, red hair, and I'm left handed. A hundred
years ago, I'd have been considered in league with the Devil.
Marsala
Aragorn <gte...@acmez.gatech.edu> wrote:
>
>Giampaolo Canzonieri (md2...@mclink.it) wrote:
>
>: If my memory doesn't fail me Anduril, although a sword of high dignity,
>: was anyway human-forged and so without any magical power (I don't
>: remember any magic coming out but from elves).
>
>but I'd bet $100 right now that neither Narsil was forged by humans nor
>Anduril reforged by them. Pretty sure that the elves did the work both
>times.
I believe you're right. If I remember correctly, Anduril (was it a
different name then?) was broken for the first part of the Fellowship's
journey. In fact, one of the auxillary reasons Strider went with the
hobbits to Rivendell was to get the sword reforged by the elves.
Although I'm not confident enough to bet $100 on it. ;-)
-K. Spoon
--
"He who breaks a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom."
Brandon VandeBrake
Giampaolo Canzonieri <md2...@mclink.it> writes:
>Paul D. Schreiner wrote:
>>
>> actually, i think the edges of anduril did glow with blue fire, much
>> like sting did...although i don't have the books on me at the moment
>> either (lent out...*sigh*). one would also not be out of line in
>> presuming that if narsil had been enchanted, that when the blade was
>> reforged by the elves in rivendell (which, if i remember correctly, took
>> the entire period of time from the council to the departure of the nine
>> walkers) they re-enchanted it...
>If my memory doesn't fail me Anduril, although a sword of high dignity,
>was anyway human-forged and so without any magical power (I don't
>remember any magic coming out but from elves).
Narsil was forged by Telchar of Nogrod, who I believe was a dwarf.
Anyway, the rest of your post is still valid, and someone did bring up the
fact that Aragorn did ask Frodo to unsheath Sting for use as an Orc
detector.
--
Brandon VandeBrake A mathematician is a device for
Ricketts Hovse Librarian turning coffee into theorems.
bra...@cco.caltech.edu ---Paul Erdos
----------http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~branvan---------
Aragorn
Brandon VandeBrake (bra...@cco.caltech.edu) wrote:
: Giampaolo Canzonieri <md2...@mclink.it> writes:
: Narsil was forged by Telchar of Nogrod, who I believe was a dwarf.
: Anyway, the rest of your post is still valid, and someone did bring up the
: fact that Aragorn did ask Frodo to unsheath Sting for use as an Orc
: detector.
Just a speculation which has no support in Tolkien's books. But perhaps if
Aragorn was to unsheath Anduril not too far from the orcs, they would be
able to recongize it. Maybe it would just tell them where the Fellowship
was?
Jacob Lazarus
Marsala wrote:
>
> Aragorn <gte...@acmez.gatech.edu> wrote:
> >
> >Giampaolo Canzonieri (md2...@mclink.it) wrote:
> >
> >: was anyway human-forged and so without any magical power (I don't
> >: remember any magic coming out but from elves).
> >
> >but I'd bet $100 right now that neither Narsil was forged by humans nor
> >Anduril reforged by them. Pretty sure that the elves did the work both
> >times.
>
> I believe you're right. If I remember correctly, Anduril (was it a
> different name then?) was broken for the first part of the Fellowship's
> journey. In fact, one of the auxillary reasons Strider went with the
> hobbits to Rivendell was to get the sword reforged by the elves.
>
the Last Alliance of Elves and Men. I think Aragorn just liked carrying
around a broken sword. Kind of like a historical relic until it was
'appropriate' to be reforged. Kind of a timing thing.
Jacob
Jim Gregors
Aragorn wrote:
>
> Giampaolo Canzonieri (md2...@mclink.it) wrote:
>
> : If my memory doesn't fail me Anduril, although a sword of high dignity,
> : was anyway human-forged and so without any magical power (I don't
> : remember any magic coming out but from elves).
>
>
> I believe your memory does not serve you right =) Gonna go get my books
> but I'd bet $100 right now that neither Narsil was forged by humans nor
> Anduril reforged by them. Pretty sure that the elves did the work both
> times.
Narsil was originally forged by Telchar of Nogrod (presumably a Dwarf).
It was reforged by Elven smiths (probably Noldor - but not necessarily)
prior to the Fellowship leaving Rivendell.
Jim G.
Albert Yang
Aragorn (gte...@acmex.gatech.edu) wrote:
: Brandon VandeBrake (bra...@cco.caltech.edu) wrote:
: : Giampaolo Canzonieri <md2...@mclink.it> writes:
:
: : Narsil was forged by Telchar of Nogrod, who I believe was a dwarf.
: : Anyway, the rest of your post is still valid, and someone did bring up the
: : fact that Aragorn did ask Frodo to unsheath Sting for use as an Orc
: : detector.
:
: Just a speculation which has no support in Tolkien's books. But perhaps if
: Aragorn was to unsheath Anduril not too far from the orcs, they would be
: able to recongize it. Maybe it would just tell them where the Fellowship
: was?
And just how would the orcs recognize Anduril? Even Sauron wasn't sure
that Narsil had been reforged (or still existed) until Aragorn showed it
to him when looking in the Palantir of Orthanc.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Albert Yang | "Hit .240 a year or two and then we'll
apy...@ucdavis.edu | start pitching to him (Bonds). The
http://dcn.davis.ca.us/~albert/ | guy's the best player in the game for
| what, the last seven or eight years?"
| -- Greg Maddux
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Solomon
On Fri, 02 May 1997 22:58:09 -0400, Jacob Lazarus <ja...@rockpile.com>
wrote:
>Marsala wrote:
>>
>> Aragorn <gte...@acmez.gatech.edu> wrote:
>> >
>> >Giampaolo Canzonieri (md2...@mclink.it) wrote:
> Hrm, I remember Anduril being broken for quite a while, possibly since
>the Last Alliance of Elves and Men. I think Aragorn just liked carrying
>around a broken sword. Kind of like a historical relic until it was
>'appropriate' to be reforged. Kind of a timing thing.
>
Anduril was shattered in the final battle of the Last Alliance of
Elves and Men in which Gil-Galad and Elendil fought Sauron on the
steps of Barad-Dur. Isildur took the shards of Anduril, and with the
hilt-shard, he cut the Ring from Sauron's finger.
The sword was passed down through the generations to the direct
descendants of Isildur for use in the day when the Ring was to be
found again and the Sword That Was Broken to be reforged.
Schrodinger's Cat is not in this novel all of the time.
---Robert Anton Wilson
sol
!@?*$%
I've wonderred about. Wouldn't reforging involve melting all the steel
back to iron, realloying, and then folding and hammerring into shape
again? In the end, I would think it could be the Soupcan that was Openned
Reforged for all any metallurgist could tell.
--
The fire surges, fills his veins; | S M Ryan, Cupertino CA
the red and black, the blaspheme reigns. | mail to: smr...@mail.com
With flash and spark, he flails dark, | Sais-moi rien?
and curses phantom cavern banes. | I don't use no smileys.
Paul D. Schreiner
Jim Gregors wrote:
telchar was a dwarf, described in foster's _the complete guide to middle
earth_ as the "most renowned smith of nogrod". he also forged angrist,
the knife used by beren to cut the silmaril from the iron crown.
David C Koopman
Dave Koopman's opinion on forging is
In article <smryan-0305...@10.0.2.15>, smr...@mail.com wrote:
>I've wonderred about. Wouldn't reforging involve melting all the steel
>back to iron, realloying, and then folding and hammerring into shape
>again? In the end, I would think it could be the Soupcan that was Openned
>Reforged for all any metallurgist could tell.
>
I believe that you only have to get the fractured zone's temperature
hot enough to induce local recrystallization, followed by whatever were
the appropriate tempering and annealing processes (depends on what it was
really made of, and JRRT doesn't seem to have been a metallurgist. I'm
not either, but do have three degrees in Chemical Engineering.)
soli...@gamewood.net
> >: If my memory doesn't fail me Anduril, although a sword of high dignity,
> >: was anyway human-forged and so without any magical power (I don't
> >: remember any magic coming out but from elves).
> >
> >but I'd bet $100 right now that neither Narsil was forged by humans nor
> >Anduril reforged by them. Pretty sure that the elves did the work both
> >times.
>
> different name then?) was broken for the first part of the Fellowship's
> journey. In fact, one of the auxillary reasons Strider went with the
> hobbits to Rivendell was to get the sword reforged by the elves.
>
Close enough for the hundred bucks, but not perfect. Anduril,
originally Narsil, was forged by a DWARF: Telchar of Nogrod, who also
made the knife Angrist and the Dragon-helm of Dor-lomin.
Narsil/Anduril was not an "auxiliary reason" for Aragorn's going to
Rivendell: after all, he had lived there a great part of his life, and
Elrond had had Narsil in his keeping during Aragorn's minority. Aragorn
had it reforged at the time of the Council because the time was right:
The One Ring was found and it was time for Elendil's heir to reclaim his
kingdom, or die trying.