Wizard sex (no, seriously)
Tristan Miller
The recent thread on the Elven libido got me wondering whether the Istari
could procreate. I suppose this raises the two-part question: did they
have the, ah, correct plumbing for this activity, and if so, would they
have had a mind to ever engage in it? I suppose the lack of female wizards
might have been an obstactle to reproduction, but that's not to say they
couldn't have indulged in a little recreational hanky-panky with members of
physically-compatible races. One could argue (prudishly, IMHO) that sex,
especially of the non-reproductive variety, would be beneath such noble
beings, but keep in mind that even Gandalf was known to indulge in idle,
purely physical pleasures from time to time (e.g., pipeweed).
--
\\\ Tristan Miller [en, (fr, de, ia)]
\\\ http://www.nothingisreal.com/ (personal)
\\\ http://www.cs.toronto.edu/~psy/ (academic)
AC
> Greetings.
>
> The recent thread on the Elven libido got me wondering whether the Istari
> could procreate. I suppose this raises the two-part question: did they
> have the, ah, correct plumbing for this activity, and if so, would they
> have had a mind to ever engage in it? I suppose the lack of female wizards
> might have been an obstactle to reproduction, but that's not to say they
> couldn't have indulged in a little recreational hanky-panky with members of
> physically-compatible races. One could argue (prudishly, IMHO) that sex,
> especially of the non-reproductive variety, would be beneath such noble
> beings, but keep in mind that even Gandalf was known to indulge in idle,
> purely physical pleasures from time to time (e.g., pipeweed).
Though the Ainur procreating was a part of the early Legendarium, it had
been all but abandoned by the time of the writing of LotR. In the end, I
know of only two instances of Ainur reproducing; Melian and Ungoliant. The
latter depends, of course, on whether you believe that Ungoliant was indeed
an Ainu.
I would assume that for an Ainu to procreate they would have to take on a
form capable of doing so. The Istari appeared in the forms of Men that aged
slowly, but I do not think that means that the Istari *were* Men, and I
think it quite probable that, while they may have had the physical bits,
they could not procreate.
--
A. Clausen
maureen...@nospam.alberni.net (Remove "nospam." to contact me)
Tamim
> Greetings.
> The recent thread on the Elven libido got me wondering whether the Istari
> could procreate.
Yes, if Melian could, so could they.
> I suppose this raises the two-part question: did they
> have the, ah, correct plumbing for this activity,
They took the shapes of humans, so yes they had.
> and if so, would they
> have had a mind to ever engage in it?
Apparently not, there was no mention of the adventures of Saruman Jr.
>I suppose the lack of female wizards
> might have been an obstactle to reproduction,
Melian had a child with an elf.
>but that's not to say they
> couldn't have indulged in a little recreational hanky-panky with members of
> physically-compatible races. One could argue (prudishly, IMHO) that sex,
> especially of the non-reproductive variety, would be beneath such noble
> beings,
Tolkien was a Catholic.
> but keep in mind that even Gandalf was known to indulge in idle,
> purely physical pleasures from time to time (e.g., pipeweed).
So was Jesus. Well not pipeweed, but wine.
Tristan Miller
On Wednesday 09 April 2003 21:36, Tamim wrote:
>> I suppose this raises the two-part question: did they
>> have the, ah, correct plumbing for this activity,
>
> They took the shapes of humans, so yes they had.
Do we know that they were anatomically correct, though? As you pointed out,
Tolkien was Catholic, and some Catholic scholars hold that angels were not
endowed with reproductive organs. (Indeed, Matthew 22:29-30 makes it
fairly clear that the angels in heaven do not have sex.)
>>but that's not to say they
>> couldn't have indulged in a little recreational hanky-panky with members
>> of
>> physically-compatible races. One could argue (prudishly, IMHO) that sex,
>> especially of the non-reproductive variety, would be beneath such noble
>> beings,
>
> Tolkien was a Catholic.
That didn't stop him from writing about corrupt angelic beings. By the end
of the Third Age, Saruman was no paragon of virtue. If he had no qualms
about decimating Rohan, overrunning the Shire, and plotting to take over
the world, then it's difficult to see how he would have blanched at
something so innocuous as extramarital sex.
Bill O'Meally
"Tristan Miller" <psych...@nothingisreal.com> wrote in message
news:9813775.z...@ID-187157.news.dfncis.de...
> Greetings.
>
> On Wednesday 09 April 2003 21:36, Tamim wrote:
> >> I suppose this raises the two-part question: did they
> >> have the, ah, correct plumbing for this activity,
> >
> > They took the shapes of humans, so yes they had.
>
> Do we know that they were anatomically correct, though? As you
pointed out,
> Tolkien was Catholic, and some Catholic scholars hold that angels were
not
> endowed with reproductive organs. (Indeed, Matthew 22:29-30 makes it
> fairly clear that the angels in heaven do not have sex.)
Did Istari have navels?
--
Bill
"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
Tristan Miller
On Wednesday 09 April 2003 22:15, Bill O'Meally wrote:
> Did Istari have navels?
Of course they did. Otherwise Gandalf would have had nowhere to put the
salt when he ate celery in bed.
Jason Atkinson
<psych...@nothingisreal.com> wrote:
>Greetings.
>
>On Wednesday 09 April 2003 21:36, Tamim wrote:
>>> I suppose this raises the two-part question: did they
>>> have the, ah, correct plumbing for this activity,
>>
>> They took the shapes of humans, so yes they had.
>
>Do we know that they were anatomically correct, though? As you pointed out,
>Tolkien was Catholic, and some Catholic scholars hold that angels were not
>endowed with reproductive organs. (Indeed, Matthew 22:29-30 makes it
>fairly clear that the angels in heaven do not have sex.)
Istari were angels incarnate, given the bodies of the Children of Eru
and meant to be able to pass as one of them.
---
"Oh, really?," replied the dragon. "You must forgive me for not knowing anything about
you, but I've been out of touch. I am Mistinarperadnacles Hai Draco. You may call me
Mist. And I'll call you . . . . supper? Yes, its about time for a light, early supper.
So nice of you to deliver yourself." From _Azure Bonds_ by Kate Novak & Jeff Grubb
Jon Cast
<snip>
> I would assume that for an Ainu to procreate they would have to take on a
> form capable of doing so. The Istari appeared in the forms of Men that aged
> slowly, but I do not think that means that the Istari *were* Men,
No. They were men. IDHTBIFOM, but UT says they came in the bodies of
men, ``real and not feigned''. I.e., there were men, every bit as
much as you or I. There was no more difference between your body and
Gandalf's than there is between yours and mine.
> and I think it quite probable that, while they may have had the
> physical bits, they could not procreate.
Jon Cast
Tristan Miller
On Wednesday 09 April 2003 22:36, Jon Cast wrote:
> No. They were men. IDHTBIFOM, but UT says they came in the bodies of
> men, ``real and not feigned''. I.e., there were men, every bit as
> much as you or I. There was no more difference between your body and
> Gandalf's than there is between yours and mine.
So I too can expect to live to the ripe old age of 2000?
Jon Cast
> Greetings.
>
> On Wednesday 09 April 2003 22:36, Jon Cast wrote:
> > No. They were men. IDHTBIFOM, but UT says they came in the bodies of
> > men, ``real and not feigned''. I.e., there were men, every bit as
> > much as you or I. There was no more difference between your body and
> > Gandalf's than there is between yours and mine.
> So I too can expect to live to the ripe old age of 2000?
If you have the spirit of an Istar or an Elf, yes.
Jon Cast
Jamie Andrews
form of old men. That is, of men past the age where men would
normally be expected to be able to, er. (Softrat and Pierre
Trudeau excluded of course)
--Jamie. (nel mezzo del cammin di nostra vita)
andrews .uwo } Merge these two lines to obtain my e-mail address.
@csd .ca } (Unsolicited "bulk" e-mail costs everyone.)
Tamim
> Greetings.
> On Wednesday 09 April 2003 21:36, Tamim wrote:
>>> I suppose this raises the two-part question: did they
>>> have the, ah, correct plumbing for this activity,
>>
>> They took the shapes of humans, so yes they had.
> Do we know that they were anatomically correct, though?
No but we have no reason to assume they weren't. They did take the body
of men.
> As you pointed out,
> Tolkien was Catholic, and some Catholic scholars hold that angels were not
> endowed with reproductive organs. (Indeed, Matthew 22:29-30 makes it
> fairly clear that the angels in heaven do not have sex.)
Melian did, and in older versions so did Manwe and Varda.
snip
>> Tolkien was a Catholic.
> That didn't stop him from writing about corrupt angelic beings.
Lucifer was/is a corrupt angelic being.
> By the end
> of the Third Age, Saruman was no paragon of virtue. If he had no qualms
> about decimating Rohan, overrunning the Shire, and plotting to take over
> the world, then it's difficult to see how he would have blanched at
> something so innocuous as extramarital sex.
Maybe he wasn't interested. Or maybe he had a few lovers, we don't know.
Pradera
loosely:
> They did take the form of humans, but more specifically the
> form of old men. That is, of men past the age where men would
> normally be expected to be able to, er. (Softrat and Pierre
> Trudeau excluded of course)
That's exactly what I think, too.
Maybe that is the real reason they took bodies of old men :)
--
Pradera
---
-ignorance is no excuse for stupidity-
RANT - Regulars Against Non-Topicness (on RABT)
http://www.pradera-castle.prv.pl/
http://www.tolkien-gen.prv.pl/
Raven
news:9813775.z...@ID-187157.news.dfncis.de...
> (Indeed, Matthew 22:29-30 makes it fairly clear that the angels in
> heaven do not have sex.)
Those two verses taken alone may also imply that the angels in Heaven
have sex without marrying first; that they shag with each other here and
there and freely - though I suppose that the scriptures that Jesus refers to
in verse 29 state that sex does not take place. :-)
Kávla.
the softrat
>On 09 kwi 2003, add...@bottom.of.message (Jamie Andrews) scribbled
>loosely:
>
>> They did take the form of humans, but more specifically the
>> form of old men.
>
>Maybe that is the real reason they took bodies of old men :)
They took the form of old men because, as everyone who is not a
foolish child knows, old men are wise. (Until Alzheimer's sets in
....)
Imagine a Istar with Alzheimer's ....
the softrat ==> Careful!
I have a hug and I know how to use it!
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
I must be God. Nobody has any faith in me any more.
Chris Kohn
Jon Cast <jc...@ou.edu> felt the urge to enrich the
world of usenet by contributing following facts:
> AC <maureen...@nospam.alberni.net> writes:
>
> <snip>
>
>> I would assume that for an Ainu to procreate they would have to take
>> on a form capable of doing so. The Istari appeared in the forms of
>> Men that aged slowly, but I do not think that means that the Istari
>> *were* Men,
>
> No. They were men. IDHTBIFOM, but UT says they came in the bodies of
> men, ``real and not feigned''. I.e., there were men, every bit as
> much as you or I. There was no more difference between your body and
> Gandalf's than there is between yours and mine.
Yeah, but the bodies of _old_ men, and aging very slowly. So they might just
have been "past their prime" anyway when they arrived in Middle-earth.
Although Radagast might or might not have had some fun with a bunch of
squirrels occassionally. ;)
I could picture Radagast in a similiar role as (movie) Gandalf when he rides
the cart into Hobbiton adn talks to Frodo: "If you refer to the incident
with the bear and the canary bird, I was barely involved... I just pushed
into them... I mean just pushed them into the right direction"...
Sorry...
late already ;)
Chris Kohn
Pradera <pra...@pradera.prv.pl> felt the urge to enrich the
world of usenet by contributing following facts:
> On 09 kwi 2003, add...@bottom.of.message (Jamie Andrews) scribbled
> loosely:
>
>> They did take the form of humans, but more specifically the
>> form of old men. That is, of men past the age where men would
>> normally be expected to be able to, er. (Softrat and Pierre
>> Trudeau excluded of course)
>
> That's exactly what I think, too.
> Maybe that is the real reason they took bodies of old men :)
Yeah, and what Saruman was _really_ trying to develop through his
transgenetic orc-men-breeding-program wasn't 10,000 Uruk-Hais, but just a
pack of Viagra... and both him and Sauron didn't want the Ring to enslave
the world, but to compensate their mid-life crisis and get laid by some
teenaged elf-chicks. ;)
zett
> Greetings.
>
> The recent thread on the Elven libido got me wondering whether the Istari
> could procreate. I suppose this raises the two-part question: did they
> have the, ah, correct plumbing for this activity, and if so, would they
Well, I really think that if the Wizards placed any importance on it,
Tolkien would have written about it. But to join you in musing, I must
say that since the Istari were clothed in the bodies of men, one would
be safe in assuming they had the correct plumbing. Melian was a Maia,
and she got it on with Thingol at least once...I don't see why a
'male' Maia couldn't have taken a mate or whatever...
Of course there is the whole sticking with the Valar's mission issue.
I think being on a mission against Sauron would play hell with a
relationship...I am sure too that Gandalf had enemies all over and
maybe he wouldn't have wanted to endanger even a casual 'girlfriend'.
And too, maybe that is what happened to the Blue Wizards...they met
some chicks and got side tracked off their mission. :shrugs:
Matthew Billmers
"Chris Kohn" <nos...@gmx.at> wrote:
Teenaged elf-chicks? Given their birthrate and average age, what are
the chances that there are any?
Unless, of course, by "teenaged" you mean more than 12 but less than 20
*hundred* years old. ;)
On an interesting side-note, though hobbits lived longer and matured
later than we do, they didn't refer to those irresponsible years
"between childhood and coming of age" [FotR, A Long Expected Party] as
teens, but tweens. That is, they did use "teen" (I assume) but also
added a word for the extra decade in their maturation. After all, that
decade was not the years with "teen" in their names, but the years with
"twenty" in their names.
So, maybe for the elves the term should be "deca-teen."
--
I will take the ring, though I do not know the way.
-Frodo, son of Drogo
Bill O'Meally
"Jamie Andrews" <add...@bottom.of.message> wrote in message
news:b722fh$h5r$1...@panther.uwo.ca...
> They did take the form of humans, but more specifically the
> form of old men. That is, of men past the age where men would
> normally be expected to be able to, er. (Softrat and Pierre
> Trudeau excluded of course)
Theoretically, men can reproduce well into old age. That being said, I
believe the description of the Istari is not so much as they arrived as
old men as that they were "never young" and aged only very slowly.
Saruman is described as having black hair when he arrived from the West.
Donald Shepherd
alleged...
> I would assume that for an Ainu to procreate they would have to take on a
> form capable of doing so. The Istari appeared in the forms of Men that aged
> slowly, but I do not think that means that the Istari *were* Men, and I
> think it quite probable that, while they may have had the physical bits,
> they could not procreate.
Maybe they didn't have the physical bits? Maybe you've just revealed
the _real_ reason Gandalf doesn't go to the toilet at any point in the
LotR!
--
Donald Shepherd
<donald_...@hotmail.com>
"Tragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you fall into an open
sewer and die." - Mel Brooks
Donald Shepherd
alleged...
> I could picture Radagast in a similiar role as (movie) Gandalf when he rides
> the cart into Hobbiton adn talks to Frodo: "If you refer to the incident
> with the bear and the canary bird, I was barely involved... I just pushed
> into them... I mean just pushed them into the right direction"...
>
> Sorry...
> late already ;)
"An excellent point," said Gandalf. "A member of my own order, Radagast,
was prosecuted for practicing inappropriate charms on a goat. It was all
over the papers, but did Radagast hide? No, he did not! He held his head
high and went about his business as usual! Of course, I'm not entirely
sure he can read, so that may not have been bravery..."
Donald Shepherd
> (Indeed, Matthew 22:29-30 makes it
> fairly clear that the angels in heaven do not have sex.)
Yet they dare to call it Heaven?!?!?!?!?
Donald Shepherd
alleged...
> On 9 Apr 2003 21:46:13 GMT, Pradera <pra...@pradera.prv.pl> wrote:
>
> >On 09 kwi 2003, add...@bottom.of.message (Jamie Andrews) scribbled
> >loosely:
> >
> >> They did take the form of humans, but more specifically the
> >> form of old men.
> >
> >Maybe that is the real reason they took bodies of old men :)
>
> They took the form of old men because, as everyone who is not a
> foolish child knows, old men are wise. (Until Alzheimer's sets in
> ....)
>
> Imagine a Istar with Alzheimer's ....
The real reason Radagast isn't in the movie is because he wandered off
after the book and no one could find him.
jchase
<snip>
>
> So was Jesus. Well not pipeweed, but wine.
Not really- in Jesus' time, wine's alcohol wasn't for pleasure, but a
preservative. Alcoholic beverages are safe to drink where the water
isn't. The nasty side effects of overuse were well known, and
criticized often in the Bible and other sacred writings.
Jason Atkinson
<mbil...@alumni.umass.edu> wrote:
>In article <b72cuu$a365m$1...@ID-182180.news.dfncis.de>,
> "Chris Kohn" <nos...@gmx.at> wrote:
>
>> In news:Xns9358F1C5F9BDAp...@130.133.1.4,
>> Pradera <pra...@pradera.prv.pl> felt the urge to enrich the
>> world of usenet by contributing following facts:
>>
>> > On 09 kwi 2003, add...@bottom.of.message (Jamie Andrews) scribbled
>> > loosely:
>> >
>> Yeah, and what Saruman was _really_ trying to develop through his
>> transgenetic orc-men-breeding-program wasn't 10,000 Uruk-Hais, but just a
>> pack of Viagra... and both him and Sauron didn't want the Ring to enslave
>> the world, but to compensate their mid-life crisis and get laid by some
>> teenaged elf-chicks. ;)
>
>Teenaged elf-chicks? Given their birthrate and average age, what are
>the chances that there are any?
>
>Unless, of course, by "teenaged" you mean more than 12 but less than 20
>*hundred* years old. ;)
>
>On an interesting side-note, though hobbits lived longer and matured
>later than we do, they didn't refer to those irresponsible years
>"between childhood and coming of age" [FotR, A Long Expected Party] as
>teens, but tweens. That is, they did use "teen" (I assume) but also
>added a word for the extra decade in their maturation. After all, that
>decade was not the years with "teen" in their names, but the years with
>"twenty" in their names.
>
>So, maybe for the elves the term should be "deca-teen."
I seem to recall Tolkien saying is took an average of 144 years for
elves to reach full adult hood. IIRC, it was in the description of
Elven marriage customs. Could someone with their books available
check that?
If that's the case, an elven teenager probably is the equivelent of a
human toddler.
Maxx
> > form of old men. That is, of men past the age where men would
> > normally be expected to be able to, er. (Softrat and Pierre
> > Trudeau excluded of course)
> That's exactly what I think, too.
> Maybe that is the real reason they took bodies of old men :)
Or maybe why they were "given" the bodies of old men.
Hmm, maybe they could've whipped up some wizagra?
Michael Graf
schrubbelte folgendes:
[snip]
> end, I
> know of only two instances of Ainur reproducing; Melian and
> Ungoliant. The latter depends, of course, on whether you believe
> that Ungoliant was indeed
> an Ainu.
Which brings up the question why Melian was able to do so. I thought
the human 'body' of the Ainu was a kind of disguise (in a way like the
characters on the Enterprise Holodeck), and that the choice of a female
or a male form was determined by their character and mood, although it
seems that once they've chosen their bodily form they don't change it
any more. But if Melian had been able to reproduce, then whyt's the
significant difference to the real embodies Istari? Or was it a kind of
'illuvatarian exception', made to create a red thread in the history of
Arda?
--
How can you keep your head
And not go insane
When the only light at the end
Of the tunnel is another train (Dream Theater)
Michael Graf
schrubbelte folgendes:
> Yeah, but the bodies of _old_ men, and aging very slowly. So they
> might just have been "past their prime" anyway when they arrived in
> Middle-earth. Although Radagast might or might not have had some fun
> with a bunch of squirrels occassionally. ;)
I guess he uses them rather as a contraceptive when he does the bears.
('Oh,sorry, Beorn, didn't know it's you!')
Jussi Jaatinen
Michael Graf wrote:
> But if Melian had been able to reproduce, then whyt's the
> significant difference to the real embodies Istari? Or was it a kind of
> 'illuvatarian exception', made to create a red thread in the history of
> Arda?
Melian's physical form and the Istari forms weren't exactly similar in
nature. Melian adopted a form as described in the Valaquenta, and left
that form later. (Melian apparently didn't become "bound" to the form
even thoush she had loved Thingol and borne Luthien in it)
The Istari were incarnated in real human bodies, which they apparently
weren't at liberty to abandon at will just as humans can't abandon their
bodies at will. But if Melian could procreate in her assumed form, then
certainly the Istari could procreate in their real human forms. The only
consideration I see in the matter is if Eru would provide a soul for the
offspring, and I don't see any reason why not - especially if the Istar
in question is loyal to the Valar.
But the Istari don't come across as predisposed toward having children
or parenting to me.
-JJ
Michael O'Neill
Must play havoc with the harmonies in the heavenly choirs.
The unscheduled high notes, I mean...
M.
fenris
> Greetings.
>
> The recent thread on the Elven libido got me wondering whether the Istari
> could procreate. I suppose this raises the two-part question: did they
> have the, ah, correct plumbing for this activity, and if so, would they
> might have been an obstactle to reproduction, but that's not to say they
> couldn't have indulged in a little recreational hanky-panky with members of
> physically-compatible races. One could argue (prudishly, IMHO) that sex,
> especially of the non-reproductive variety, would be beneath such noble
> beings, but keep in mind that even Gandalf was known to indulge in idle,
> purely physical pleasures from time to time (e.g., pipeweed).
Maybe the fact that Gandalf rode bareback should give us a clue :)
-Aravind
PS Don't know about the wizards, but Morgoth for one definitely had a
mind to engage in it ...
AC
> AC (maureen...@nospam.alberni.net)
> schrubbelte folgendes:
>
> [snip]
>
>> end, I
>> know of only two instances of Ainur reproducing; Melian and
>> Ungoliant. The latter depends, of course, on whether you believe
>> that Ungoliant was indeed
>> an Ainu.
>
> Which brings up the question why Melian was able to do so. I thought
> the human 'body' of the Ainu was a kind of disguise (in a way like the
> characters on the Enterprise Holodeck), and that the choice of a female
> or a male form was determined by their character and mood, although it
> seems that once they've chosen their bodily form they don't change it
> any more. But if Melian had been able to reproduce, then whyt's the
> significant difference to the real embodies Istari? Or was it a kind of
> 'illuvatarian exception', made to create a red thread in the history of
> Arda?
Melian took on the body of an Elf, and in that body was able to reproduce.
The Valar do not take on such forms, and thus do not require even
sustenance.
Obviously the Ainur initially have great freedom in choosing the physical
form they will take. If they become habituated in their bodies then it is a
different story, as we saw with Morgoth and Sauron.
--
A. Clausen
maureen...@nospam.alberni.net (Remove "nospam." to contact me)
Michael Graf
AC (maureen...@nospam.alberni.net)
schrubbelte folgendes:
> In article <b735jn$rg2$2...@news.uni-kl.de>, Michael Graf wrote:
>> Which brings up the question why Melian was able to do so. I thought
>> the human 'body' of the Ainu was a kind of disguise (in a way like
>> the characters on the Enterprise Holodeck), and that the choice of
>> a female or a male form was determined by their character and mood,
>> although it seems that once they've chosen their bodily form they
>> don't change it
>> any more. But if Melian had been able to reproduce, then whyt's the
>> significant difference to the real embodies Istari? Or was it a
>> kind of 'illuvatarian exception', made to create a red thread in
>> the history of Arda?
> Melian took on the body of an Elf, and in that body was able to
> reproduce. The Valar do not take on such forms, and thus do not
> require even sustenance.
Interesting that you wrote that she took the _body_ of an elf, whereas
the other Ainur took on _forms_. To me it seems that something
'istari-like' happened to her.
Had Gandalf and the other wizards been embodied by the Valar, or had
they been capable of doing so themselves? If the latter is correct,
then why should't Melian be able to do likewise? Do we know whether she
occasionally walked 'unclad' between the time she became enarmoured
with Thingol and before he died? I remember her always acting like a
queen of the Sindar, not as an Ainu.
> Obviously the Ainur initially have great freedom in choosing the
> physical form they will take. If they become habituated in their
> bodies then it is a different story, as we saw with Morgoth and
> Sauron.
Yet AFAIK Morgoth lost his ability to change his appearance because he
spent much of his power to control his servants, and so his personal
power decreased, and AFAIR it was rather an 'accident' that he lost
this 'feature' when presenting himself as a dark lord. Sauron, however,
was able to wright himself a new shape, although not one too
advantageous, but unlike Morgoth he had to leave his bodily form
several times (the Huan & Luthien-fight, downfall of Numenor,
Gil-Galad+Elendil+Isildur...)
sugr...@yhti.net
The angels are called ministering spirits of fire in the Psalms.
And again, they are spirits created to serve Jehovah. I do not think
of them as solid in the same sense as the Istari.
sue
On Thu, 10 Apr 2003 10:46:34 -0700, Michael O'Neill <o...@indigo.ie>
wrote:
Michael Graf
Paul Ciszek (pci...@TheWorld.com)
schrubbelte folgendes:
> In article <b74hpc$ns7$1...@news.uni-kl.de>,
> Michael Graf <Pfael...@web.de> wrote:
>> Interesting that you wrote that she took the _body_ of an elf,
>> whereas the other Ainur took on _forms_. To me it seems that
>> something 'istari-like' happened to her.
>> Had Gandalf and the other wizards been embodied by the Valar, or had
>> they been capable of doing so themselves? If the latter is correct,
>> then why should't Melian be able to do likewise? Do we know whether
>> she
> I don't have access to the Silmarillion right now, but early
> on it mentions Olorin walking among the Children of Illuvitar
> as one of them. Unless this is just an early reference to
> his Third Age activies, it sounds like he was no stranger to
> embodiment.
Yet it might also be that he clad himself in a human form, not really
in a human body. IMHO the difference is that the human form is a kind
of 'visible alias', an appearance including also the possibility to
interact physically with the environment, but unlike the physiology of
a human or elvish being it's just a piece of matter controlled by the
spirits of the Ainur.
> As for the Istari being able to reproduce, that would probably
> have been frowned upon, given their mission of limited
> interference.
All except Gandalf abandoned their mission, so why should they stay
'abstinent'?
[snip]
> I would be more concerned that Gandalf had knocked up some Elf
> maid during his earlier Olorin days.
Only one? :-)
Robert J. Kolker
Michael Graf wrote:
> Yet it might also be that he clad himself in a human form, not really
> in a human body. IMHO the difference is that the human form is a kind
> of 'visible alias', an appearance including also the possibility to
> interact physically with the environment, but unlike the physiology of
> a human or elvish being it's just a piece of matter controlled by the
> spirits of the Ainur.
And what is your body? Just a piece of matter controlled by your mind.
Bob Kolker
Jim Deutch
>the world, then it's difficult to see how he would have blanched at
>something so innocuous as extramarital sex.
Never been married, eh?
Jim Deutch
--
Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it.
Tristan Miller
On Friday 11 April 2003 17:47, Jim Deutch wrote:
>>the world, then it's difficult to see how he would have blanched at
>>something so innocuous as extramarital sex.
>
> Never been married, eh?
It is not necessary for either party to be married to engage in extramarital
sex.
--
\\\ Tristan Miller [en, (fr, de, ia)]
\\\ http://www.nothingisreal.com/ (personal)
\\\ http://www.cs.toronto.edu/~psy/ (academic)
Tristan Miller
On Friday 11 April 2003 07:45, sugr...@yhti.net wrote:
> The angels are called ministering spirits of fire in the Psalms.
> And again, they are spirits created to serve Jehovah. I do not think
> of them as solid in the same sense as the Istari.
Why not? The citizens of Soddom and Gommorah certainly did; Lot took
special pains to avoid a pair of them from being molested by the populace.
And it's obvious enough that angels can at least manipulate physical
matter, as evidenced by the occasions on which they spoke to humans,
impregnated immaculate virgins, etc.
Iain D Broadfoot
I think the point was that the 'body' was matter _created_ by the
spirit, and non-existent without that spirit.
iain
--
wh33, y1p33 3tc.
"If sharing a thing in no way diminishes it, it is not rightly owned if it is
not shared." -St. Augustine
sugr...@yhti.net
bible. They never eat in the bible. THey do physical acts in
obedience to Jehovah. As someone earlier on this thread described it
well: they take the form but not the flesh of humanity.
Sue
Aris Katsaris
<sugr...@yhti.net> wrote in message news:3e977186...@news.yhti.net...
> Angels never impregnated a virgin immaculate of otherwise in the
> bible. They never eat in the bible.
The three visitors that visited Abraham ate and drank, IIRC.
Aris Katsaris
coyotes morgan mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
<kats...@otenet.gr> wrote:
genesis is not a d and d pamphlet
giving propetries attributes and hit points
Michael Graf
Robert J. Kolker (bobk...@attbi.com)
schrubbelte folgendes:
No, you misunderstood me. The human body is a complex system which
provides all the features to run itself, so to say. A piece of mud in
human form won't do so, and that's just what I think that the visible
forms of the Valar and Maiar are.
Michael Graf
Iain D Broadfoot (ibro...@cis.strath.ac.uk)
schrubbelte folgendes:
> I think the point was that the 'body' was matter _created_ by the
> spirit, and non-existent without that spirit.
That's it.
Pradera
>> Angels never impregnated a virgin immaculate of otherwise in the
>> bible. They never eat in the bible.
>
> The three visitors that visited Abraham ate and drank, IIRC.
These weren't angels, these were aliens.
--
Pradera
---
-ignorance is no excuse for stupidity-
RANT - Regulars Against Non-Topicness (on RABT)
http://www.pradera-castle.prv.pl/
http://www.tolkien-gen.prv.pl/
sugr...@yhti.net
Actually it was a theophany
Sue
Robert J. Kolker
Aris Katsaris wrote:
> The three visitors that visited Abraham ate and drank, IIRC.
One of them even had to use the bayt shemoosh.
Bob Kolker
Jim Deutch
<psych...@nothingisreal.com> wrote:
>Greetings.
>
>On Friday 11 April 2003 17:47, Jim Deutch wrote:
>>>the world, then it's difficult to see how he would have blanched at
>>>something so innocuous as extramarital sex.
>>
>> Never been married, eh?
>
>It is not necessary for either party to be married to engage in extramarital
>sex.
No, but I think it _is_ necessary for you to be never-married in order
to consider extramarital sex as "innocuous"! I guess the real word
for that is "adultery", but a broader category is generally taken to
include a more specific one...
Jim Deutch
--
What do you call it when psychics are wrong? Precognitive dissonance.
Tristan Miller
On Monday 14 April 2003 18:11, Jim Deutch wrote:
>>>>the world, then it's difficult to see how he would have blanched at
>>>>something so innocuous as extramarital sex.
>>>
>>> Never been married, eh?
>>
>>It is not necessary for either party to be married to engage in
>>extramarital sex.
>
> No, but I think it _is_ necessary for you to be never-married in order
> to consider extramarital sex as "innocuous"!
Well, then, since we're in agreement on this point, I stand by my claim that
Saruman, as a bachelor, ought not to have balked at recreational sex.
Flame of the West
> > Tolkien was a Catholic.
>
> That didn't stop him from writing about corrupt angelic beings. By the end
> of the Third Age, Saruman was no paragon of virtue. If he had no qualms
> about decimating Rohan, overrunning the Shire, and plotting to take over
> the world, then it's difficult to see how he would have blanched at
> something so innocuous as extramarital sex.
Interesting point. But I don't think there's anything in Tolkien's
writings about Saruman sowing his wild oats.
--
-- FotW
The Official Return of the King Protest Site
Chocolate Death
I the only one wondering just how the blue wizards got their name?
Sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry.
Windy
no, i'm not
vandevere
> *Are you all manfully restraining yourselves from saying it aloud, or
Just a curious lurker, me. What was the name of the two Blue Wizards?
Vandevere
--
vandevere
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Jaime Frontero
"vandevere" <vandevere.m058a@webmaster@christopherleeweb.com> wrote in
message news:389150e4460a2c2e...@news.teranews.com...
> Chocolate Death wrote:
> > *Are you all manfully restraining yourselves from saying it aloud, or
> > am
> > I the only one wondering just how the blue wizards got their name?
> >
> > Sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry.
> >
> > Windy
> >
> > no, i'm not *
>
> Just a curious lurker, me. What was the name of the two Blue Wizards?
>
> Vandevere
Left, and Right. (thank you, chocolate death...)
j
Bill O'Meally
"vandevere" <vandevere.m058a@webmaster@christopherleeweb.com> wrote in
message news:389150e4460a2c2e...@news.teranews.com...
> Chocolate Death wrote:
> > *Are you all manfully restraining yourselves from saying it aloud,
or
> > am
> > I the only one wondering just how the blue wizards got their name?
> >
> > Sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry.
> >
> > Windy
> >
> > no, i'm not *
>
> Just a curious lurker, me. What was the name of the two Blue Wizards?
Alatar and Pallando
--
Bill
"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
Raven
meddelelse news:389150e4460a2c2e...@news.teranews.com...
> > *Are you all manfully restraining yourselves from saying it aloud, or
> > am I the only one wondering just how the blue wizards got their
> > name?
> > Sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry.
> > Windy
> > no, i'm not *
> Just a curious lurker, me. What was the name of the two Blue Wizards?
Dick and Fanny?
Kauvá.
Donald Shepherd
<jonlennar...@damn.get2net.that.dk.spam> alleged...
This it Tolkien, not Blyton! ;P
--
Donald Shepherd
<donald_...@hotmail.com>
"Tragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you fall into an open
sewer and die." - Mel Brooks
Mika-Petri Lauronen
>> Just a curious lurker, me. What was the name of the two Blue Wizards?
>> Dick and Fanny?
>
> This it Tolkien, not Blyton! ;P
>
Both did write whole chapters about eating and traveling in the
countryside, though.
--
--
First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then
you win.
- Mohandas Mahatma Gandhi
Mixu Lauronen, mpla...@paju.oulu.fi
Öjevind Lång
> Donald Shepherd wrote:
>
> >> Just a curious lurker, me. What was the name of the two Blue Wizards?
> >> Dick and Fanny?
> >
> > This it Tolkien, not Blyton! ;P
> >
> Both did write whole chapters about eating and traveling in the
> countryside, though.
And didn't Beren have a dog called Timmy? It fought Jumble, Morgoth's mutt.
Öjevind
Öjevind Lång
"Mika-Petri Lauronen" <mpla...@paju.oulu.fi> skrev i meddelandet
news:b7o490$598$1...@plaza.suomi.net...
Öjevind Lång
> Donald Shepherd wrote:
>
> >> Just a curious lurker, me. What was the name of the two Blue Wizards?
> >> Dick and Fanny?
> >
> > This it Tolkien, not Blyton! ;P
> >
> Both did write whole chapters about eating and traveling in the
> countryside, though.
And didn't Beren have a dog called Timmy? It fought Jumble, Morgoth's mutt.
Incidentally, why do some posters insist on removing the AFT addy so
messages only go to RABT? AFT *needs* good posts about Tolkien & related
matters. What you are doing contributes to killing off AFT completely.
Please stop it.
Öjevind
Chocolate Death
>removing the AFT addy so messages only go >to RABT? AFT *needs* good
posts about
>Tolkien & related matters. What you are doing
>contributes to killing off AFT completely.
>Please stop it.
>Öjevind
Um. That is probably me you are talking to, but the truth is, I don't
_remove_ the addy for AFT. My poor, sad, trailer-trash MSN-Tv
newsreader does not cross-post automatically nor yet display what other
groups a post was sent to. As I rarely read AFT, I would have to jump
through hoops to find out which threads go to both ngs then type in the
other address every time I post. I apologize for being lazy and
scatterbrained, but the truth is, half the time I have a hard time
believing my little comments are worth much attention.
/me promises to _try_ to remember to jump through more hoops in future.
Windy
When the going gets weird....
Mika-Petri Lauronen
> "Mika-Petri Lauronen" <mpla...@paju.oulu.fi> wrote:
>
>>> This it Tolkien, not Blyton! ;P
>> Both did write whole chapters about eating and traveling in the
>> countryside, though.
>
> Incidentally, why do some posters insist on removing the AFT addy so
> messages only go to RABT? AFT *needs* good posts about Tolkien & related
> matters. What you are doing contributes to killing off AFT completely.
> Please stop it.
>
If the above isn't Tolkien related, then what is?
Öjevind Lång
> Öjevind Lång wrote:
>
> > "Mika-Petri Lauronen" <mpla...@paju.oulu.fi> wrote:
> >
> >>> This it Tolkien, not Blyton! ;P
> >> Both did write whole chapters about eating and traveling in the
> >> countryside, though.
> >
> > Incidentally, why do some posters insist on removing the AFT addy so
> > messages only go to RABT? AFT *needs* good posts about Tolkien & related
> > matters. What you are doing contributes to killing off AFT completely.
> > Please stop it.
> >
> If the above isn't Tolkien related, then what is?
The parallel between Tolkien and Blyton is fairly Tolkien-related. By the
way, Georgie's father the inventor, would he be Gandalf or Saruman? Didn't
he live in a tower?
Öjevind
Count Menelvagor
He, Lúthien, Timmy, Finrod and George formed a rock band called the
Famous Five. They ran afoul of Morgoth's infamous highbrowism; but
none ever betrayed their lord.
Öjevind Lång
message news:<eyTna.385$dl2...@nntpserver.swip.net>...
[snip]
> > And didn't Beren have a dog called Timmy? It fought Jumble, Morgoth's
mutt.
>
> He, Lúthien, Timmy, Finrod and George formed a rock band called the
> Famous Five. They ran afoul of Morgoth's infamous highbrowism; but
> none ever betrayed their lord.
However, Lúthien was a bit of a wimp - always whined that she was scared.
Then, after George's father had invented the Silmarilli, Bill and Ginger and
Jumble turned up and stole them. Not that Bill meant any harm - he just
wanted to give them to his sister Ethel.
Öjevind
Lisa Virmigle
> On Wed, 09 Apr 2003 22:04:51 +0200, Tristan Miller
> <psych...@nothingisreal.com> alleged...
> > (Indeed, Matthew 22:29-30 makes it
> > fairly clear that the angels in heaven do not have sex.)
>
> Yet they dare to call it Heaven?!?!?!?!?
Twain's point exactly. >:-D
Yours,
LV
Archaeologist of Beleriand and Atalantė