deus ex machina

[Rich D]

At the end, Gandalf calls an Uber taxi, gets a lift to the
volcano, picks up Frodo and Sam, then home. Easy as pie.

Does anyone fail to see how this eviscerates the
central plot of the trilogy? Does the term 'deus
ex machina' mean anything to you?

J.R.R. was evidently familiar the technique -

--
Rich

[Julian Bradfield]

On 2023-04-14, Rich D <rdelan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> At the end, Gandalf calls an Uber taxi, gets a lift to the
> volcano, picks up Frodo and Sam, then home. Easy as pie.
> Does anyone fail to see how this eviscerates the
> central plot of the trilogy? Does the term 'deus
> ex machina' mean anything to you?

This is not a novel question, nor is the (fairly easy to come up with)
answer.

Here's a recent presentation of the answer:


https://www.polygon.com/lord-of-the-rings/22432394/eagles-lotr-plot-hole-mordor

[Paul S Person]

Sadly, it ignores my favorite answer:

because then Gwaihir would become the Lord of the Rings, and Men would
be reduced to raising sheep for his family
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

[Steve Morrison]

On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 08:47:05 -0700, Paul S Person wrote:

> On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 08:53:37 +0000 (UTC), Julian Bradfield
> <j...@inf.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>>On 2023-04-14, Rich D <rdelan...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> At the end, Gandalf calls an Uber taxi, gets a lift to the
>>> volcano, picks up Frodo and Sam, then home. Easy as pie.
>>> Does anyone fail to see how this eviscerates the
>>> central plot of the trilogy? Does the term 'deus
>>> ex machina' mean anything to you?
>>
>>This is not a novel question, nor is the (fairly easy to come up with)
>>answer.
>>
>>Here's a recent presentation of the answer:
>>
>>
>>https://www.polygon.com/lord-of-the-rings/22432394/eagles-lotr-plot-hole-mordor
>
> Sadly, it ignores my favorite answer:
>
> because then Gwaihir would become the Lord of the Rings, and Men would
> be reduced to raising sheep for his family

The answer is obvious: if they had done that, then the Balrog would
have used its wings to fly after them, duh!

[Stan Brown]

They lost me at "That is, if Gandalf can ask a moth to bring him a
giant eagle to rescue him from Saruman in The Fellowship of the
Ring".

--
Stan Brown, Tehachapi, California, USA
https://BrownMath.com/
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen)
Tolkien letters FAQ: https://preview.tinyurl.com/pr6sa7u
FAQ of the Rings: https://BrownMath.com/general/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: https://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm

[Paul S Person]

If you are responding to me:

Since Gwaihir would have the Ring, the Balrog would be his faithful
puppy and do no such thing.

If you are providing an alternate answer:

That's possible, although how the Balrog would find out about it is
hard to tell. It took a rock dropped down a deep well to rouse it in
the book.

Also, killing Balrogs is easy:
1. Be high up.
2. Grab onto Balrog.
3. Fall all the way down into a body of water.
This, of course, makes you a (dead) hero. It is documented not only in
/LOTR/ but in /The Silmarillion/ as well.

[Stan Brown]

On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 08:46:08 -0700, Paul S Person wrote:
> That's possible, although how the Balrog would find out about it is
> hard to tell. It took a rock dropped down a deep well to rouse it in
> the book.

For some value of "rouse".

In Bk II Ch 2 "The Council of Elrond," Glóin says "Moria! Moria!
Wonder of the Northern world! Too deep we delved there, and woke the
nameless fear. Long have its vast mansions lain empty since the
children of Durin fled." The Tale of Years dates that at T.A. 1980.

Whether the Balrog went back to sleep is debatable. My own feeling is
that it stayed awake, active to the extent of ruling the Orcs of
Moria. If I'm correct, then when Pippin threw the rock down the well,
the Orcs heard it and went to the Balrog for instructions. Or perhaps
the drums were how they sent a message to the Balrog.

Though it seems unlikely to me that one tossed rock could have
wakened the Balrog from a millennium-long slumber, I admit your
interpretation of Bk IV Ch 4 is possible.

[Paul S Person]

On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 11:50:16 -0700, Stan Brown
<the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:

>On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 08:46:08 -0700, Paul S Person wrote:
>> That's possible, although how the Balrog would find out about it is
>> hard to tell. It took a rock dropped down a deep well to rouse it in
>> the book.
>
>For some value of "rouse".
>
>In Bk II Ch 2 "The Council of Elrond," Glóin says "Moria! Moria!
>Wonder of the Northern world! Too deep we delved there, and woke the
>nameless fear. Long have its vast mansions lain empty since the
>children of Durin fled." The Tale of Years dates that at T.A. 1980.
>
>Whether the Balrog went back to sleep is debatable. My own feeling is
>that it stayed awake, active to the extent of ruling the Orcs of
>Moria. If I'm correct, then when Pippin threw the rock down the well,
>the Orcs heard it and went to the Balrog for instructions. Or perhaps
>the drums were how they sent a message to the Balrog.

Actually, that would satisfy my intended meaning for "arouse": not so
much "wake up" as "attract the attention of".

Sorry for any confusion.

>Though it seems unlikely to me that one tossed rock could have
>wakened the Balrog from a millennium-long slumber, I admit your
>interpretation of Bk IV Ch 4 is possible.
--

[Rich D]

On April 16, Paul S Person wrote:
>>>>> At the end, Gandalf calls an Uber taxi, gets a lift to the
>>>>> volcano, picks up Frodo and Sam, then home. Easy as pie.
>>>>> Does anyone fail to see how this eviscerates the
>>>>> central plot of the trilogy?
>

>>> Sadly, it ignores my favorite answer:
>>> because then Gwaihir would become the Lord of the Rings, and Men would
>>> be reduced to raising sheep for his family
>
>> The answer is obvious: if they had done that, then the Balrog would
>> have used its wings to fly after them, duh!
>

> Since Gwaihir would have the Ring, the Balrog would be his faithful
> puppy and do no such thing.

This assumes that Balrog is a servant of the ring. My impression is
they're a refractory lot, who signed a detente agreement with Sorehead.
Stalin-Hitler, that sort of thing -

> Also, killing Balrogs is easy:
> 1. Be high up.
> 2. Grab onto Balrog.
> 3. Fall all the way down into a body of water.

What's the population of Balrogs in Middle Earth?
And what's their evolutionary origin? Has anyone done a DNA
analysis? I guess they evolved from amphibians -

> This, of course, makes you a (dead) hero.

Gandalf was one of those Lazarus types, apparently -

--
Rich

[Paul S Person]

On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 10:26:38 -0700 (PDT), Rich D
<rdelan...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On April 16, Paul S Person wrote:
>>>>>> At the end, Gandalf calls an Uber taxi, gets a lift to the
>>>>>> volcano, picks up Frodo and Sam, then home. Easy as pie.
>>>>>> Does anyone fail to see how this eviscerates the
>>>>>> central plot of the trilogy?
>>
>>>> Sadly, it ignores my favorite answer:
>>>> because then Gwaihir would become the Lord of the Rings, and Men would
>>>> be reduced to raising sheep for his family
>>
>>> The answer is obvious: if they had done that, then the Balrog would
>>> have used its wings to fly after them, duh!
>>
>> Since Gwaihir would have the Ring, the Balrog would be his faithful
>> puppy and do no such thing.

>This assumes that Balrog is a servant of the ring. My impression is
>they're a refractory lot, who signed a detente agreement with Sorehead.
>Stalin-Hitler, that sort of thing -

IIRC, JRRT's final theory was that the Balrog's were lesser Maiar who
served Morgoth. As Morgoth's replacement, this one would serve Sauron
and, since the Ring held much of Sauron's power, the Ring as well.

BTW, Sauron, Saruman, Gandalf, and Radogast were all Maiar. That is
why Gandalf had to face the Balrog himself: only he was equal to the
task.

In the earliest version, they were (or would have been) fire
elementals who, of course, served Melkor.

>> Also, killing Balrogs is easy:
>> 1. Be high up.
>> 2. Grab onto Balrog.
>> 3. Fall all the way down into a body of water.
>
>What's the population of Balrogs in Middle Earth?
>And what's their evolutionary origin? Has anyone done a DNA
>analysis? I guess they evolved from amphibians -

Depends on the era/when the story was written, IIRC. Some references
to large numbers exist, but others seem to treat them as only a few.

And, fire elemental or Maia, they would not have "evolved" from
anything. They would merely have assumed physical form.

>> This, of course, makes you a (dead) hero.
>
>Gandalf was one of those Lazarus types, apparently -

Gandalf was revived and returned by Eru Iluvatar Himself.

With Manwe's pussy restrictions relaxed, if not completely removed.

Glorfindel killed a Balrog in the Fall of Gondolin. There is some
ambiguity about whether or not this is the same Glorfindel as the
Glorfindel found in /LOTR/.

For Men and Elves, at least, death merely takes the fea to the Halls
of Mandos. The Elves, at least, can be reincarnated and returned.
There are at least two different theories of how this worked. As with
the origin of the Orcs, JRRT never seems to have made a final decision
about this.

Reading the books might be helpful.

Not just /The Hobbit/, /LOTR/, and /The Silmarillion/. The /History of
Middle Earth/ set has a lot of material on these issues. And the
/Unfinished Tales/ should not be overlooked.

[Axel Reichert]

Paul S Person <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> writes:

> IIRC, JRRT's final theory was that the Balrog's were lesser Maiar who
> served Morgoth. As Morgoth's replacement, this one would serve Sauron
> and, since the Ring held much of Sauron's power, the Ring as well.

One could as well argue that a Balrog would not feel inclined to serve
another Maia. There is a prominent precedence with Saruman versus the
other members of the White Council.

Best regards

Axel

[Paul S Person]

Gwaihir is not a Maia.

It is the /Ring/ the Balrog would bow to.

Try to keep up.

[Axel Reichert]

Paul S Person <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> writes:

> Gwaihir is not a Maia.

Right, sorry, I was distracted/lost the context and was thinking about
an imaginary conflict between Sauron and the Balrog.

Best regards

Axel

[Steve Morrison]

Thinking about it, it seems to me that there /is/ a problem here.
Granted that sending Eagles with the Ring wouldn't have worked because
of the need for stealth and because of Mordor's "air defenses", the
question becomes "How did they know this ahead of time?"

The trouble is that at the time of the Council of Elrond, the winged
Nazgul had never yet been seen. Remember that when the Fellowship
first encountered one of them months later, they had no idea what they
had just seen or what Legolas had shot down. So how did the Council
/know/ that Sauron had servants who could attack an Eagle in the air?

In any case, the idea should at least have been brought up at the
Council, if only to be shot down by a wiser character. They did
discuss ideas which were just as unworkable (Toss the Ring into the
sea! Send it to Valinor! Give it to Tom Bombadil!)

Thoughts?

[Stan Brown]

On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 08:51:56 -0700, Paul S Person wrote:
> BTW, Sauron, Saruman, Gandalf, and Radogast were all Maiar. That is
> why Gandalf had to face the Balrog himself: only he was equal to the
> task.

I'm sure Sauron could have done it, only he had no motive. Could
Saruman (Curunír)? Maybe.

But it doesn't necessarily take a Maia to kill a Balrog, as you
yourself implied:

> Glorfindel [an Elf] killed a Balrog in the Fall of Gondolin.

Further example:

Gothmog Lord of Balrogs was a badass who had killed Fëanor some
centuries earlier; in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad he killed High King
Fingon with the help of a second, unnamed, Balrog.

Still, Gothmog was killed by Ecthelion of the Fountain, an Elf of
Gondolin, presumably a Noldo, though Ecthelion also lost his life in
their battle.

[Stan Brown]

On Wed, 19 Apr 2023 21:32:32 -0000 (UTC), Steve Morrison wrote:
> Thinking about it, it seems to me that there /is/ a problem here.
> Granted that sending Eagles with the Ring wouldn't have worked because
> of the need for stealth and because of Mordor's "air defenses", the
> question becomes "How did they know this ahead of time?"
>
> The trouble is that at the time of the Council of Elrond, the winged
> Nazgul had never yet been seen.

True, but there are always arrows fired from the ground. In /The
Hobbit/ \the eagles wouldn't take Thorin & Company anywhere near the
dwellings of men because "They would shoot at us with their great
bows of yew." And Orcs shot arrows too, so Sauron's ground-based
defenses could have taken out the Eagles.

[Paul S Person]

On Wed, 19 Apr 2023 16:56:01 -0700, Stan Brown
<the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:

>On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 08:51:56 -0700, Paul S Person wrote:
>> BTW, Sauron, Saruman, Gandalf, and Radogast were all Maiar. That is
>> why Gandalf had to face the Balrog himself: only he was equal to the
>> task.
>
>I'm sure Sauron could have done it, only he had no motive. Could
>Saruman (Curunír)? Maybe.

Certainly they could and, since both were stronger than Gandalf, they
might even have done it better.

But neither were present when the need arose.

Try to follow along, eh?

>But it doesn't necessarily take a Maia to kill a Balrog, as you
>yourself implied:
>
>> Glorfindel [an Elf] killed a Balrog in the Fall of Gondolin.

I never said it did. What I /did/ say was that this is the technique
known to work:
1. Be at a great height over water (the side of a mountain, say)
2. Grab hold of the Balrog.
3. Jump off into the water below.
Anyone can kill a Balrog if they can manage all three steps.

>Further example:
>
>Gothmog Lord of Balrogs was a badass who had killed Fëanor some
>centuries earlier; in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad he killed High King
>Fingon with the help of a second, unnamed, Balrog.
>
>Still, Gothmog was killed by Ecthelion of the Fountain, an Elf of
>Gondolin, presumably a Noldo, though Ecthelion also lost his life in
>their battle.

The person killing the Balrog /always/ becomes a dead hero.

Falling into water from a great height has a tendency to be fatal.

[Rich D]

On April 20, Paul S Person wrote:
>>> Sauron, Saruman, Gandalf, and Radogast were all Maiar. That is
>>> why Gandalf had to face the Balrog himself: only he was equal to the
>>> task.
>
>> I'm sure Sauron could have done it, only he had no motive.

If Sorehead had conquered Middle Earth, would he
treat Moria as a mine field?

> 1. Be at a great height over water (the side of a mountain, say)
> 2. Grab hold of the Balrog.
> 3. Jump off into the water below.
>

>> Gothmog Lord of Balrogs was a badass who had killed Fëanor some
>> centuries earlier; in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad he killed High King
>> Fingon with the help of a second, unnamed, Balrog.
> >
>> Still, Gothmog was killed by Ecthelion of the Fountain, an Elf of
>> Gondolin, presumably a Noldo, though Ecthelion also lost his life in
>> their battle.
>> The person killing the Balrog /always/ becomes a dead hero.

Lotsa killin' and revenge in that world. Reminds me of the
Old Testament, or maybe Texas -

How come Gandalf reincarnated, but not Balrog? If
they were both of the same breed -

--
Rich

[Julian Bradfield]

On 2023-04-20, Rich D <rdelan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> How come Gandalf reincarnated, but not Balrog? If
> they were both of the same breed -

Gandalf was reincarnated by divine intervention. Indeed, he was
incarnated in the first place by divine intervention.
The Balrogs, as Maiar, were presumably "incarnate" only in the same
way as Sauron - becoming bound, but not irrevocably, to their favoured
bodies by force of habit and spending of power.

[Stan Brown]

On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 11:28:17 -0700 (PDT), Rich D wrote:
> How come Gandalf reincarnated, but not Balrog? If
> they were both of the same breed -

That was special one-time action by Eru. The Valar (specifically
Manwė) had sent Gandalf to Middle-earth originally, with a lot of
restrictions on his actions because the Valar were always afraid of
overawing Men and Elves. But when Eru(*) sent Gandalf back to Middle-
earth, he was given greater power as well as fewer restrictions. "The
old Gandalf could not have dealt so with Théoden, nor with Saruman."

(*) I don't recall that this was stated explicitly in LotR, but it is
stated in Letters, e.g. number 156.

[Louis Epstein]

Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
> On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 08:46:08 -0700, Paul S Person wrote:
>> That's possible, although how the Balrog would find out about it is
>> hard to tell. It took a rock dropped down a deep well to rouse it in
>> the book.
>
> For some value of "rouse".
>

> In Bk II Ch 2 "The Council of Elrond," Gl?in says "Moria! Moria!

> Wonder of the Northern world! Too deep we delved there, and woke the
> nameless fear. Long have its vast mansions lain empty since the
> children of Durin fled." The Tale of Years dates that at T.A. 1980.
>
> Whether the Balrog went back to sleep is debatable. My own feeling is
> that it stayed awake, active to the extent of ruling the Orcs of
> Moria. If I'm correct, then when Pippin threw the rock down the well,
> the Orcs heard it and went to the Balrog for instructions. Or perhaps
> the drums were how they sent a message to the Balrog.

Dain saw the Balrog on the occasion of his killing Azog...

> Though it seems unlikely to me that one tossed rock could have
> wakened the Balrog from a millennium-long slumber, I admit your
> interpretation of Bk IV Ch 4 is possible.

...so any slumber would surely have not been that long.

(Not sure if Stan needs to update his blockfile for my new email,
but regardless,the Monarch retains the inalienable right to do
AND the common sense not to do just about anything Stan claims
he can not do).

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

[Louis Epstein]

The TLotR procedure involves chasing the Balrog from the base
of a near-to-bottomless pit to the peak of Zirak-Zigil,so it's
not necessarily that easy.

[Louis Epstein]

Paul S Person <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

> On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 10:26:38 -0700 (PDT), Rich D
> <rdelan...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On April 16, Paul S Person wrote:
>>>>>>> At the end, Gandalf calls an Uber taxi, gets a lift to the
>>>>>>> volcano, picks up Frodo and Sam, then home. Easy as pie.
>>>>>>> Does anyone fail to see how this eviscerates the
>>>>>>> central plot of the trilogy?
>>>
>>>>> Sadly, it ignores my favorite answer:
>>>>> because then Gwaihir would become the Lord of the Rings, and Men would
>>>>> be reduced to raising sheep for his family
>>>
>>>> The answer is obvious: if they had done that, then the Balrog would
>>>> have used its wings to fly after them, duh!
>>>
>>> Since Gwaihir would have the Ring, the Balrog would be his faithful
>>> puppy and do no such thing.
>
>>This assumes that Balrog is a servant of the ring. My impression is
>>they're a refractory lot, who signed a detente agreement with Sorehead.
>>Stalin-Hitler, that sort of thing -
>
> IIRC, JRRT's final theory was that the Balrog's were lesser Maiar who
> served Morgoth. As Morgoth's replacement, this one would serve Sauron
> and, since the Ring held much of Sauron's power, the Ring as well.

So did "Even Sauron knows them not;they are older than he" refer to
the Balrogs or not?

(Another wrinkle in the conundrum of who is really the eldest of
beings in Middle-Earth,beyond the contradictory claims of Treebeard
and Bombadil).

> BTW, Sauron, Saruman, Gandalf, and Radogast were all Maiar. That is
> why Gandalf had to face the Balrog himself: only he was equal to the
> task.
>
> In the earliest version, they were (or would have been) fire
> elementals who, of course, served Melkor.
>
>>> Also, killing Balrogs is easy:
>>> 1. Be high up.
>>> 2. Grab onto Balrog.
>>> 3. Fall all the way down into a body of water.
>>
>>What's the population of Balrogs in Middle Earth?
>>And what's their evolutionary origin? Has anyone done a DNA
>>analysis? I guess they evolved from amphibians -
>
> Depends on the era/when the story was written, IIRC. Some references
> to large numbers exist, but others seem to treat them as only a few.

Large number in First Age,indeterminate small number by Third...one
should still be cautious even after the Third in declaring them
extinct.

> And, fire elemental or Maia, they would not have "evolved" from
> anything. They would merely have assumed physical form.
>
>>> This, of course, makes you a (dead) hero.
>>
>>Gandalf was one of those Lazarus types, apparently -
>
> Gandalf was revived and returned by Eru Iluvatar Himself.
>
> With Manwe's pussy restrictions relaxed, if not completely removed.
>
> Glorfindel killed a Balrog in the Fall of Gondolin. There is some
> ambiguity about whether or not this is the same Glorfindel as the
> Glorfindel found in /LOTR/.

Some consider this settled in the affirmative.

> For Men and Elves, at least, death merely takes the fea to the Halls
> of Mandos. The Elves, at least, can be reincarnated and returned.
> There are at least two different theories of how this worked. As with
> the origin of the Orcs, JRRT never seems to have made a final decision
> about this.
>
> Reading the books might be helpful.
>
> Not just /The Hobbit/, /LOTR/, and /The Silmarillion/. The /History of
> Middle Earth/ set has a lot of material on these issues. And the
> /Unfinished Tales/ should not be overlooked.

[Louis Epstein]

Paul S Person <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

> On Wed, 19 Apr 2023 16:56:01 -0700, Stan Brown
> <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 08:51:56 -0700, Paul S Person wrote:
>>> BTW, Sauron, Saruman, Gandalf, and Radogast were all Maiar. That is
>>> why Gandalf had to face the Balrog himself: only he was equal to the
>>> task.
>>
>>I'm sure Sauron could have done it, only he had no motive. Could

>>Saruman (Curun?r)? Maybe.

>
> Certainly they could and, since both were stronger than Gandalf, they
> might even have done it better.
>
> But neither were present when the need arose.
>
> Try to follow along, eh?
>
>>But it doesn't necessarily take a Maia to kill a Balrog, as you
>>yourself implied:
>>
>>> Glorfindel [an Elf] killed a Balrog in the Fall of Gondolin.
>
> I never said it did. What I /did/ say was that this is the technique
> known to work:
> 1. Be at a great height over water (the side of a mountain, say)
> 2. Grab hold of the Balrog.
> 3. Jump off into the water below.
> Anyone can kill a Balrog if they can manage all three steps.

Not necessarily without chasing it up the Endless Stair
afterward!!

>>Further example:
>>
>>Gothmog Lord of Balrogs was a badass who had killed F?anor some

>>centuries earlier; in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad he killed High King
>>Fingon with the help of a second, unnamed, Balrog.
>>
>>Still, Gothmog was killed by Ecthelion of the Fountain, an Elf of
>>Gondolin, presumably a Noldo, though Ecthelion also lost his life in
>>their battle.
>
> The person killing the Balrog /always/ becomes a dead hero.
>
> Falling into water from a great height has a tendency to be fatal.

[Paul S Person]

On Tue, 2 May 2023 04:31:01 -0000 (UTC), Louis Epstein
<l...@main.lekno.ws> wrote:

>Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>> On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 08:46:08 -0700, Paul S Person wrote:
>>> That's possible, although how the Balrog would find out about it is
>>> hard to tell. It took a rock dropped down a deep well to rouse it in
>>> the book.
>>
>> For some value of "rouse".
>>
>> In Bk II Ch 2 "The Council of Elrond," Gl?in says "Moria! Moria!
>> Wonder of the Northern world! Too deep we delved there, and woke the
>> nameless fear. Long have its vast mansions lain empty since the
>> children of Durin fled." The Tale of Years dates that at T.A. 1980.
>>
>> Whether the Balrog went back to sleep is debatable. My own feeling is
>> that it stayed awake, active to the extent of ruling the Orcs of
>> Moria. If I'm correct, then when Pippin threw the rock down the well,
>> the Orcs heard it and went to the Balrog for instructions. Or perhaps
>> the drums were how they sent a message to the Balrog.
>
>Dain saw the Balrog on the occasion of his killing Azog...
>
>> Though it seems unlikely to me that one tossed rock could have
>> wakened the Balrog from a millennium-long slumber, I admit your
>> interpretation of Bk IV Ch 4 is possible.
>
>...so any slumber would surely have not been that long.

Which is why, in my reply to Stan, I noted that "rouse" was intended
to mean something like "attract the attention of".

>(Not sure if Stan needs to update his blockfile for my new email,
>but regardless,the Monarch retains the inalienable right to do
>AND the common sense not to do just about anything Stan claims
>he can not do).
>
>-=-=-
>The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
>at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

[Paul S Person]

Well, maybe that's what happens when the water isn't actually deep
enough.

[Paul S Person]

Good question. Sadly, I cannot think of an answer.

So perhaps JRRT's final theory was /not/ that the Balrog's were lesser
Maiar.

[Paul S Person]

Having enough water at the bottom appears to help a lot.

[Stan Brown]

On Tue, 02 May 2023 08:10:52 -0700, Paul S Person wrote:
>
> On Tue, 2 May 2023 04:37:39 -0000 (UTC), Louis Epstein
> <l...@main.lekno.ws> wrote:
> >So did "Even Sauron knows them not;they are older than he" refer to
> >the Balrogs or not?
>
> Good question. Sadly, I cannot think of an answer.
>
> So perhaps JRRT's final theory was /not/ that the Balrog's were lesser
> Maiar.

A fuller version of the quote is:

"'We fought far under the living earth, where time is not counted.
Ever he clutched me, and ever I hewed him, till at last he fled into
dark tunnels. They were not made by Durin's folk, Gimli son of Glóin.
Far, far below the deepest delving of the Dwarves, the world is
gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older
than he. Now I have walked there, but I will bring no report to
darken the light of day. In that despair my enemy was my only
hope' ..."

I think it's pretty clear that Gandalf is drawing a distinction
between the Balrog and those "nameless things".

But I don't see how they can be older than Sauron: he was created by
Eru before there was an Arda. Maybe JRRT meant that they had
descended to Arda before Sauron did.

Regarding the origin of the Balrogs, the commentary to "Of the Coming
of the Elves" on page 165 of HoMe X, in "The Later Quenta
Silmarillion", says that JRRT wrote in the margin "See Valaquenta for
true account". Christopher Tolkien expands on that with "This is a
reference to the passage which appears in the published Silmarillion
on p. 31" where JRRT clearly stated that the Balrogs were Maiar.

[Paul S Person]

Thanks for this info!

[Rich D]

On May 2, Stan Brown wrote:
> Christopher Tolkien expands on that with "This is a
> reference to the passage which appears in the published Silmarillion
> on p. 31" where JRRT clearly stated that the Balrogs were Maiar.

The Maiar are gods, n'est-ce pas? Immortal. So what happens when
one of them, e.g. Balrog, is killed? Is heaven segregated into several chambers?

Gandalf came back, but the general policy is unclear -

--
Rich

[Stan Brown]

On Wed, 3 May 2023 14:10:57 -0700 (PDT), Rich D wrote:
>
> On May 2, Stan Brown wrote:
> > Christopher Tolkien expands on that with "This is a
> > reference to the passage which appears in the published Silmarillion
> > on p. 31" where JRRT clearly stated that the Balrogs were Maiar.
>
> The Maiar are gods, n'est-ce pas? Immortal.

God =/= immortal. The Elves were immortal, and the
Ents.

Tolkien and his characters seem to reserve the term
"gods" for the Valar. Of the Ainur who were present at
the creation of the world and entered into it, the
greatest were the Valar. The Maiar were usually their
helpers or servants.

> So what happens when one of them, e.g. Balrog, is killed? Is heaven
> segregated into several chambers?

Well, what happened when Sauron and Saruman were
killed? Remember that they were both Maiar, but it sure
looked like they became nothingness. I'd assume a
Balrog would be the same.

Sauron didn't die permanently when Gil-Galad and
Elendil "killed" him at the end of the Second Age,
because his power bound up in the Ring eventually let
him re-form. But when it was destroyed, that power was
lost and Sauron faded away.

> Gandalf came back, but the general policy is unclear -

Apart from Gandalf (Olórin), as far as I can recall all
the other Maiar who died had chosen the path of evil.
That seemed to have the side effect that when they died
they ended.(*)

So, Gandalf's case, if I haven't forgotten something,
was unique. He didn't go to any hall, and he was sent
back to Middle-earth not by any Vala but by Eru.

"Then darkness took me; and I strayed out of thought
and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not
tell. Naked I was sent back ? for a brief time, until
my task is done." Admittedly, those words from /LotR/
are pretty obscure, but IIRC Tolkien clarifies the
position in /Letters/.

[Julian Bradfield]

On 2023-05-03, Rich D <rdelan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The Maiar are gods, n'est-ce pas? Immortal. So what happens when
> one of them, e.g. Balrog, is killed? Is heaven segregated into several chambers?
>
> Gandalf came back, but the general policy is unclear -

Gandalf was different - he was actually incarnated into a real body,
rather than just assuming a form. When he was "killed", he was
discarnated, and presumably not feeling too good, but Eru intervened
and re-incarnated him with added super-soaking whiteness.

The Balrogs were probably like Sauron - by force of habit, and partly
by some mysterious rule that "evil" creatures become more tightly
bound to their fánar (bodies), they were so bound to their fánar
that when "killed", they did not have the strength to create a new
one, and spent the rest of the life of Arda as forlorn spirits wailing
silently.

[Paul S Person]

On Thu, 4 May 2023 05:01:13 -0700, Stan Brown
<the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:

>On Wed, 3 May 2023 14:10:57 -0700 (PDT), Rich D wrote:
>>
>> On May 2, Stan Brown wrote:
>> > Christopher Tolkien expands on that with "This is a
>> > reference to the passage which appears in the published Silmarillion
>> > on p. 31" where JRRT clearly stated that the Balrogs were Maiar.
>>
>> The Maiar are gods, n'est-ce pas? Immortal.
>
>God =/= immortal. The Elves were immortal, and the
>Ents.
>
>Tolkien and his characters seem to reserve the term
>"gods" for the Valar. Of the Ainur who were present at
>the creation of the world and entered into it, the
>greatest were the Valar. The Maiar were usually their
>helpers or servants.
>
>> So what happens when one of them, e.g. Balrog, is killed? Is heaven
>> segregated into several chambers?
>
>Well, what happened when Sauron and Saruman were
>killed? Remember that they were both Maiar, but it sure
>looked like they became nothingness. I'd assume a
>Balrog would be the same.

Saruman, at least, looked to the West (IIRC) before disappating. So
this may mean that he was refused re-entry to the Blessed Land rather
than it being a natural result.

Well, unless good ol' Manwe bound them in such a way that they could
/never/ come back, of course.

>Sauron didn't die permanently when Gil-Galad and
>Elendil "killed" him at the end of the Second Age,
>because his power bound up in the Ring eventually let
>him re-form. But when it was destroyed, that power was
>lost and Sauron faded away.
>
>> Gandalf came back, but the general policy is unclear -
>
>Apart from Gandalf (Olórin), as far as I can recall all
>the other Maiar who died had chosen the path of evil.
>That seemed to have the side effect that when they died
>they ended.(*)
>
>So, Gandalf's case, if I haven't forgotten something,
>was unique. He didn't go to any hall, and he was sent
>back to Middle-earth not by any Vala but by Eru.

I don't recall any others either.

>"Then darkness took me; and I strayed out of thought
>and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not
>tell. Naked I was sent back ? for a brief time, until
>my task is done." Admittedly, those words from /LotR/
>are pretty obscure, but IIRC Tolkien clarifies the
>position in /Letters/.
--

[Paul S Person]

Or they are banned from Valinor as having served Morgoth and so have
nowhere else to go.