Question about Celebrian
Sandra Renee Macke
I am wondering what happened to Celebrian, the daughter of Galadrial and
Celeborn, and the wife of Elrond.
In the LOTR the only time I remember her mentioned is that her sons would
never forget the suffering caused to her by the orcs (a paraphrase). I
have just finished reading some of the Unfinished Tales were there are
brief mentions of Elrond falling in love with her, and Galadriel visiting
her in Imladris.
Is there any more published about her, and if so can somebody direct me
to it?
Thanks,
Sandy
===========================================================================
Sandy Macke Pinky and the Brain '96
ny...@gladstone.uoregon.edu "Are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
Olivier Grisvard
ny...@gladstone.uoregon.edu (Sandra Renee Macke) writes:
>
> I am wondering what happened to Celebrian, the daughter of Galadrial and
> Celeborn, and the wife of Elrond.
>
> ...
>
> Thanks,
> Sandy
>
Unfortunately, there isn't much told about Celebrian in Tolkien's writings.
But I can remember reading somewhere (must be in the appendix to LOTR) that
she was caught by orcs in the high pass under Carhadras (I apologize for the
spelling if not good) on a journey between Imladris and Lorien (or Lorien and
Imladris, I can't remember...). Although she was still alive after that, she
had suffer too much to stay in Middle Earth, so she took a boat at Cirdan's
haven and departed for Tol Eressea, just as Frodo or Legolas did later.
Olivier.
Mike Burgess
...which is why (JRRT says) the sons of Elrond were so motivated to
destroy Sauron, remember?
Matt Oki
Jennifer Ryan
Sandra Renee Macke <ny...@gladstone.uoregon.edu> wrote in article
<547heu$6...@pith.uoregon.edu>...
> I am wondering what happened to Celebrian, the daughter of Galadrial and
> Celeborn, and the wife of Elrond.
>
> In the LOTR the only time I remember her mentioned is that her sons would
> never forget the suffering caused to her by the orcs (a paraphrase). I
> have just finished reading some of the Unfinished Tales were there are
> brief mentions of Elrond falling in love with her, and Galadriel visiting
> her in Imladris.
Celebrian I believe went over the sea. In Appendix B of LOTR, in the Tale
of Years (third age) it says:
2509 Celebrian, journeying to Lorien, is waylaid in the Redhorn pass, and
receives a poisoned wound.
2510 Celebrian departs over Sea.
I think after she was attacked by the orcs she grew tired of Middle-Earth
and went to the West, leaving Elrond alone in Middle-Earth. He writes more
about her elsewhere, but I don't remember where right now.
Colin Rosenthal
On 22 Oct 1996 19:57:21 GMT, Jennifer Ryan <je...@acpub.duke.edu> wrote:
>
>
>Sandra Renee Macke <ny...@gladstone.uoregon.edu> wrote in article
><547heu$6...@pith.uoregon.edu>...
>> I am wondering what happened to Celebrian, the daughter of Galadrial and
>> Celeborn, and the wife of Elrond.
>>
>> In the LOTR the only time I remember her mentioned is that her sons would
>
>> never forget the suffering caused to her by the orcs (a paraphrase). I
>> have just finished reading some of the Unfinished Tales were there are
>> brief mentions of Elrond falling in love with her, and Galadriel visiting
>
>> her in Imladris.
>
>Celebrian I believe went over the sea. In Appendix B of LOTR, in the Tale
>of Years (third age) it says:
>2509 Celebrian, journeying to Lorien, is waylaid in the Redhorn pass, and
>receives a poisoned wound.
Some members of the Tolkien Society (naming no names) have speculated about
the nature of Celebrian's "poisoned wound". It seems likely that this is
a euphemism for rape - possibly she was even impregnated. All things
considered, Celebrian's departure and her sons' subsequent hatred for
the Orcs is fairly understandable.
>2510 Celebrian departs over Sea.
>I think after she was attacked by the orcs she grew tired of Middle-Earth
>and went to the West, leaving Elrond alone in Middle-Earth. He writes more
>about her elsewhere, but I don't remember where right now.
>
>
--
--Colin Rosenthal | ``Don't smell the flowers -
--rose...@obs.aau.dk | They're an evil drug -
--http://www.obs.aau.dk/~rosentha | To make you lose your mind''-
--Aarhus University, Denmark | Ronnie James Dio, 1983 -
Robert Averbeck
I just read UT again, and remember thinking that during the Celebrian
section I thought "seems like she was sexually molested by the Orcs."
The only other point I've ever thought this is when Melkor conceives of
"something more terrible than even he had done before" while watching
Luthien dance.
Just my opinion.
rob
Michael Martinez
I've often thought the same thing myself, especially since reading "Lay of
Leithian".
The Orcs were particularly brutal to Elf-women and raped them at every
opportunity (it seems to me).
But I think the "poisoned wound" was no more than that: a poisoned wound. The
rape itself may have seemed too nasty for Tolkien to include in a book
intended for general audiences.
"Lay of Leithian" was something he despaired of ever seeing published (and I'm
so sorry he never did see it published -- it's a masterpiece of the highest
calibre, even in its unfinished state).
++ ++ "Well Samwise: What do you think of the elves now?"
||\ /|| --fbag...@mid.earth.com
|| v ||ichael Martinez (mma...@basis.com)
++ ++------------------------------------------------------
SylviaT190
In article <555kq8$2t0...@thepope.basis.com>, mich...@basis.com (Michael
Martinez) writes:
>The Orcs were particularly brutal to Elf-women and raped them at every
>opportunity (it seems to me).
That's interesting. Are there any specific references you have that give
you that impression?
Tolkien wasn't averse to referring to rape obliquely -- the Lay of
Leithian and Celebrian's "torment in the dens of the orcs" and "poisoned
wound" as examples. But he also discussed it specifically in MORGOTH'S
RING, _Laws and Customs Concerning the Eldar_:
"[discussing the corruption of some Elves] But among all these evils there
is no record of any among the Elves that took another's spouse by force;
for this was wholly against their nature, and one so forced would have
rejected bodily life and passed to Mandos."
And again, when he was rewriting the cosmology to adapt to a 'solar
system' rather than a flat world, Tolkien's notes read that the sun, or
Aren, "a [Vala] maiden whom Morgoth endeavoured to make his spouse (or
ravished); she went up in flame of wrath and anguish and her spirit was
released from Ea, but Melkor was blackened and burned, and his form was
thereafter dark, and he took to darkness."
The above quotes don't refer specifically to Celebrian's situation, but
they do give an insight into the thoughts of the author on the subject.
Tolkien, it seems, didn't ignore the subject, but was likely to use
euphemisms whenever possible.
-
Sylvia Thomas / Sylvi...@aol.com / Torrance, CA
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Michael Martinez
In article <5571j9$5...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, sylvi...@aol.com (SylviaT190) wrote:
>In article <555kq8$2t0...@thepope.basis.com>, mich...@basis.com (Michael
>Martinez) writes:
>
>>The Orcs were particularly brutal to Elf-women and raped them at every
>>opportunity (it seems to me).
>
>That's interesting. Are there any specific references you have that give
>you that impression?
You have summed up my sources for rape in Tolkien. None of the material that
was published in his lifetime specifically included mention of rape, to the
best of my knowledge. Hence, my opinion is that he felt it was not something
his general audience needed to read about.