Did Arwen give up immortality after "curing" Frodo...
Tripp Knightly
to prevent Frodo's imminent death.... and yet she seems to be giving
up her immortality later on to marry Aragorn.
Which is it?
AC
I take it you haven't actually read the book. Arwen was nowhere near the
Fords when Frodo was nearly overcome by the Morgul wound. The most you can
assert (and I don't agree with it) is that Arwen was partially responsible
for Frodo going into the West.
--
Aaron Clausen
Steuard Jensen
<120d8f1c.03082...@posting.google.com>:
> Which is it?
Neither, exactly, but the latter is closer. Pureblooded Elves are
always immortal, and in general people with any amount of human blood
will eventually die of old age: death is considered a "gift" from God,
and thus it is the "default" fate.
The only exceptions known with certainty are Earendil, Elwing, and
their descendants. Both were part Elf and part human, and because of
a fairly "heroic" deed explained in _The Silmarillion_, they were
given the choice of which kindred to be counted as (both chose the
fate of the Elves). Their children Elrond and Elros were given the
same choice; Elrond chose an Elvish fate and Elros chose to be human.
Elros became the first king of Numenor and thus the forefather of
Aragorn; because he was human (and he married a human), his
descendants were mortal.
In Elrond's case, things remained complicated. He married an Elf, but
mortality was such a "default" that even his children were given a
choice: to leave the world when he did and be counted as Elves, or to
remain in the world after he left and become mortal. Thus, Arwen
became mortal because she remained in Middle-earth instead of crossing
the Sea with her father. Inasmuch as she stayed behind because of her
love for Aragorn, that love led to her mortality.
The whole "you can sail on the boat in my place, Frodo" bit in RotK is
a bit misleading, and Tolkien discusses it in his letters. He says
explicitly that one's right to go can't be transfered as easily as
that. Rather, Arwen may have been the first to recognize that sailing
West might help to heal Frodo, and she might have used her choice as
an argument in favor of allowing him to go. It was Gandalf, though,
who ended up having the final word on the matter (as representative of
the Lords of the West), and presumably it was he who chose to allow
Bilbo to go as well (and eventually Sam).
I can't comment on the bit in the movie version of FotR: I think it's
pretty weird, to tell you the truth, and it's one of the parts of
Arwen's expanded role there that I could most easily do without. I
have a feeling that it was a throwaway line that won't be mentioned
again in RotK, but it's probably safest just to wait and see.
Steuard Jensen
Tar-Elenion
trippk...@hotmail.com says...
She chooses 'mortality' (the fate of Men, be able to 'seek elsewhither',
leave the _World) over 'immortality' (the fate of Elves, remaining within
the _World_) so as not to be seperated from Aragorn forever. She made
this Choice about 60 years before she met Frodo.
--
Tar-Elenion
Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice.
Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue.
Douglas Eckhart
"Tar-Elenion" <tar_e...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.19b435848...@news.comcast.giganews.com...
> In article <120d8f1c.03082...@posting.google.com>,
> trippk...@hotmail.com says...
> > In both the movie / book it seems that Arwen gives up her immortality
> > to prevent Frodo's imminent death.... and yet she seems to be giving
> > up her immortality later on to marry Aragorn.
> >
> > Which is it?
> >
>
> She chooses 'mortality' (the fate of Men, be able to 'seek elsewhither',
> leave the _World) over 'immortality' (the fate of Elves, remaining within
> the _World_) so as not to be seperated from Aragorn forever. She made
> this Choice about 60 years before she met Frodo.
Ok, say she chose 'mortality'. Do we know how long she *could* live for, if
say she decided not to end her life in middle-earth voluntarily after
Aragorn died?
Could she technically just go on living (In the world)? or would she be
forced to 'die off' and leave the world at some point?
(I know Elros lived for 500 years but died eventually, Perhaps Arwen would
also be forced to do so, but I wondered if there was any kind of cap on how
long she could remain on Earth.
As for her brothers, I know the jurys still out on whether they had the same
choice or not.
Regards,
Douglas
Hasdrubal Hamilcar
Douglas Eckhart wrote:
>
> Ok, say she chose 'mortality'. Do we know how long she *could* live for, if
> say she decided not to end her life in middle-earth voluntarily after
> Aragorn died?
Biggest let-down: "I choose morality over you." (Ouch!)
Tar-Elenion
douglas...@btinternet.com says...
If she did not voluntarily 'die' when she chose to, she would have died
eventually of old age (if that is what you mean by "forced"). How long
she could have continued living is unknown. It is written that Elros was
not differently endowed for the potential for life than Elrond, so
presumably Arwen could have continued living for quite some time, but she
was mortal in the end and would eventually die.
Stan Brown
rec.arts.books.tolkien, Tripp Knightly <trippk...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>In both the movie / book it seems that Arwen gives up her immortality
>to prevent Frodo's imminent death....
Where in the book does it say that? As far as I can recall, Arwen
has nothing to do with Frodo until after her wedding, when she gives
him a jewel that in some way will comfort him. But Frodo was not in
imminent danger of death at that time -- indeed, as far as he knew
he was healed. Later, on the anniversary of his wounding, he found
out that he was not.
>and yet she seems to be giving
>up her immortality later on to marry Aragorn.
The latter.
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm
wrob
> The only exceptions known with certainty are Earendil, Elwing, and
> their descendants. Both were part Elf and part human, and because of
> a fairly "heroic" deed explained in _The Silmarillion_, they were
> given the choice of which kindred to be counted as (both chose the
> fate of the Elves). Their children Elrond and Elros were given the
> same choice; Elrond chose an Elvish fate and Elros chose to be human.
> Elros became the first king of Numenor and thus the forefather of
> Aragorn; because he was human (and he married a human), his
> descendants were mortal.
And again, this whole meta-theology seems impossibly Orwellian and
deterministic from the perspective of an Elf. What would they say
to an elf that wanted to remain in M-E and wanted to retain his or
her birthright? "No, you can't because of Morgoth Energy"? Sounds
more like Frank Herbert morality than Catholicism.
Keep in mind these guys probably don't have a shot at going to
Paradise, at least not under the "pessimistic" theory of Xtian
eschatology. (I am of course interpreting the Elves as "theoretical
beings" compatible with his own Catholic monotheism, the way JRRT did
in trying to flesh out their eschatology.)
-Ber
PS-- And it all seems to stem from a mistake made by Earendil in
not choosing to become an Elf, and then reversing himself for
the sake of his wife. Given that his wife was an elf and both
his parents ended up as immortals also...! Or were they both
mortal but lived on the far side of Aman so as not to contaminate
it with their old-people-smell? I can't remember off hand. :-)
Tar-Elenion
>
> PS-- And it all seems to stem from a mistake made by Earendil in
> not choosing to become an Elf, and then reversing himself for
> the sake of his wife. Given that his wife was an elf and both
> his parents ended up as immortals also...!
Elwing, Earendil's wife, was not an Elf. she was a Half-elf who was
granted a Choice and chose to be accounted among the Elves in fate.
> Or were they both
> mortal but lived on the far side of Aman so as not to contaminate
> it with their old-people-smell? I can't remember off hand. :-)
>
Regardless of whether Tuor became 'immortal' or not, Idril was not a
'mortal' and never became a 'mortal'. JRRT essentially confirms Tuor's
'immortality' in Letters.
Tripp Knightly
Sorry... my bad, I did the read book, several times - but 20 years ago
:)
I forgot that it was Glorifindel that met them when Frodo was injured
and did nothing major for his wound, which wasn't healed until Elrond
set to work on it.
All the more, that scene in the movie (on the far banks of the river)
where Arwen almost seems to give up some kind of life force to revive
Frodo didn't make any sense at all.
wrob
>
> In article <3F4AC2D8...@erols.com>, wr...@erols.com says...
> >
> > PS-- And it all seems to stem from a mistake made by Earendil in
> > not choosing to become an Elf, and then reversing himself for
> > the sake of his wife. Given that his wife was an elf and both
> > his parents ended up as immortals also...!
>
> Elwing, Earendil's wife, was not an Elf. she was a Half-elf who was
> granted a Choice and chose to be accounted among the Elves in fate.
>
> > Or were they both
> > mortal but lived on the far side of Aman so as not to contaminate
> > it with their old-people-smell? I can't remember off hand. :-)
> >
>
> Regardless of whether Tuor became 'immortal' or not, Idril was not a
> 'mortal' and never became a 'mortal'. JRRT essentially confirms Tuor's
> 'immortality' in Letters.
Which brings me back to my original point, two generations of immortality
on both sides. Mortality is clearly a recessive trait.
-Ber
wrob
> Sorry... my bad, I did the read book, several times - but 20 years ago
> :)
> I forgot that it was Glorifindel that met them when Frodo was injured
> and did nothing major for his wound, which wasn't healed until Elrond
> set to work on it.
>
> All the more, that scene in the movie (on the far banks of the river)
> where Arwen almost seems to give up some kind of life force to revive
> Frodo didn't make any sense at all.
Yeh, like, it wasn't in the book. :-)
So far it looks like we have Tolkien 0, Jackson 0 on a very minor
plot hole ("Arwen prays to give Frodo her bus ticket.")
Pradera
scribbled loosely:
> Could she technically just go on living (In the world)? or would she
> be forced to 'die off' and leave the world at some point?
> (I know Elros lived for 500 years but died eventually, Perhaps Arwen
> would also be forced to do so, but I wondered if there was any kind of
> cap on how long she could remain on Earth.
Elrond was not 'forced' to die. In fact, it was a common virtue of the
Dunedain to decide for themselves when they die. Aragorn did so. Only in
later corrupted times it has changed.
--
Pradera
---
I'm going hunting.
I'm a hunter.
http://www.pradera-castle.prv.pl/earthdawn
http://www.pradera-castle.prv.pl/
http://www.tolkien-gen.prv.pl/
coyotes rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
<pra...@pradera.prv.pl> wrote:
> On 26 sie 2003, "Douglas Eckhart" <douglas...@btinternet.com>
> scribbled loosely:
>
> > Could she technically just go on living (In the world)? or would she
> > be forced to 'die off' and leave the world at some point?
> > (I know Elros lived for 500 years but died eventually, Perhaps Arwen
> > would also be forced to do so, but I wondered if there was any kind of
> > cap on how long she could remain on Earth.
>
> Elrond was not 'forced' to die. In fact, it was a common virtue of the
> Dunedain to decide for themselves when they die. Aragorn did so. Only in
> later corrupted times it has changed.
maybe aragorn shouldve been put on suicide watch
on a locked unit
Pradera
tomys des anges) scribbled loosely:
Apparently one of the lesser known benefits of being a dunadan was
immunity to depression.
Tar-Elenion
Two generations of immortality on both sides?
When Dior was born both of his parents were mortal. When Earendil was
born his father was mortal. When Elwing was born her mother was an
'immortal', but her father was (most likely, Conrad disagrees) mortal.
Both Earendil and Elwing were mortal when their sons were born.
Accoriding to the Judgement of Manwe mortality would be the dominant
trait, as anyone with any mortal blood was mortal, unless specifically
granted other doom.
wrob
> Two generations of immortality on both sides?
>
> When Dior was born both of his parents were mortal. When Earendil was
> born his father was mortal. When Elwing was born her mother was an
> 'immortal', but her father was (most likely, Conrad disagrees) mortal.
> Both Earendil and Elwing were mortal when their sons were born.
> Accoriding to the Judgement of Manwe mortality would be the dominant
> trait, as anyone with any mortal blood was mortal, unless specifically
> granted other doom.
The "drop of blood" rule, eh? What did they call peredhil with
a remote orcish ancestor? "Orctoroons"? Remember orcs were descended
from elves and so may in fact not count as "mortals" even if a high
Morgoth Element in their diet might have caused them to fade faster
(the few who didn't get eaten by other orcs). For my take on this
sort of hair-splitting (by JRRT and readers) c.f. Khamul's dialogue
in the "on Mount Doom" post. :-) --Ber
AC
wrob <wr...@erols.com> wrote:
> Tar-Elenion wrote:
>
>> Two generations of immortality on both sides?
>>
>> When Dior was born both of his parents were mortal. When Earendil was
>> born his father was mortal. When Elwing was born her mother was an
>> 'immortal', but her father was (most likely, Conrad disagrees) mortal.
>> Both Earendil and Elwing were mortal when their sons were born.
>> Accoriding to the Judgement of Manwe mortality would be the dominant
>> trait, as anyone with any mortal blood was mortal, unless specifically
>> granted other doom.
>
> The "drop of blood" rule, eh? What did they call peredhil with
> a remote orcish ancestor?
The only evidence of Orcish interbreeding was by Saruman, so the above
situation does nto exist.
>"Orctoroons"? Remember orcs were descended
> from elves and so may in fact not count as "mortals" even if a high
> Morgoth Element in their diet might have caused them to fade faster
Actually, we don't know the exact origins of Orcs. The silmarillion says no
more than they may have been corrupted Elves. In later writings Tolkien
speculated on other origins.
> (the few who didn't get eaten by other orcs). For my take on this
> sort of hair-splitting (by JRRT and readers) c.f. Khamul's dialogue
> in the "on Mount Doom" post. :-) --Ber
--
Aaron Clausen
wrob
Geez, you guys need more of a sense of humor. :-p
Again, c.f. "re: On Mount Doom"
Stan Brown
>Tar-Elenion wrote:
>
>> Two generations of immortality on both sides?
>>
>> When Dior was born both of his parents were mortal. When Earendil was
>> born his father was mortal. When Elwing was born her mother was an
>> 'immortal', but her father was (most likely, Conrad disagrees) mortal.
>> Both Earendil and Elwing were mortal when their sons were born.
>> Accoriding to the Judgement of Manwe mortality would be the dominant
>> trait, as anyone with any mortal blood was mortal, unless specifically
>> granted other doom.
>
>The "drop of blood" rule, eh?
No.
Mortality was not an "attribute", especially not a curse. It was a
_gift_ of Eru, to be free of the Music of the Ainur (which was fate
for all other creatures) and to leave the world after dying.
Anyone who had any mortal ancestry shared that gift, which the Valar
were powerless to take away (and probably would not have wanted to
take away).
Stan Brown
>Apparently one of the lesser known benefits of being a dunadan was
>immunity to depression.
Not so. Denethor was deeply depressed.
Donald Shepherd
> The "drop of blood" rule, eh? What did they call peredhil with
> a remote orcish ancestor?
"Sir."
> "Orctoroons"? Remember orcs were descended
> from elves and so may in fact not count as "mortals" even if a high
> Morgoth Element in their diet might have caused them to fade faster
> (the few who didn't get eaten by other orcs).
The circular food chain (orcs getting eaten by orcs) would further
increase the concentration of said Morgoth Element in those surviving
orcs, hence resulting in even faster fading... rinse and repeat ad
fadeseum.
Robert J. Kolker
Stan Brown wrote:
> Mortality was not an "attribute", especially not a curse. It was a
> _gift_ of Eru, to be free of the Music of the Ainur (which was fate
> for all other creatures) and to leave the world after dying.
Elrond was half human, but he (by choice) took the fate of elvenkind,
rather than mankind. His brother Elros chose the fate of mankind.
The real difference between elves and men is what happens after the body
dies. The elves are recycled and men are not. They have a fate beyond
Arda, although that fate is not known.
Bob Kolker
Conrad Dunkerson
> When Dior was born both of his parents were mortal.
And yet, Tolkien called him the 'first of the Peredhil'.
> When Elwing was born her mother was an 'immortal', but her father was
> (most likely, Conrad disagrees) mortal.
Heh... as you note, I disagree. Nothing which Tolkien wrote makes
Dior >inescapably< mortal (see below) and one passage which he did
write makes Dior explicitly immortal like the Elves.
> Both Earendil and Elwing were mortal when their sons were born.
I'd say they were 'indeterminate'. They eventually both chose
immortality and thus in some sense were never 'mortal'. They might
have had the 'capacity to be mortal' had the choice of kindred been
denied to them or if they had chosen differently.
> Accoriding to the Judgement of Manwe mortality would be the dominant
> trait, as anyone with any mortal blood was mortal, unless specifically
> granted other doom.
Christopher and others have taken this to mean that Dior must have
been mortal... but that assumes that Dior was not given a choice.
Facts not in evidence. Tolkien wrote that Dior had the same fate as
the Elves, that Dior was Peredhil, and that the Peredhil were given a
choice. All three of those references are from older texts, but I'd
still argue that 'old texts' outweigh 'no texts'... and there are no
texts which say that Dior was not given a choice and/or was mortal.
teepee
"Steuard Jensen" <sbje...@midway.uchicago.edu>
> Neither, exactly, but the latter is closer. Pureblooded Elves are
> always immortal, and in general people with any amount of human blood
> will eventually die of old age: death is considered a "gift" from God,
> and thus it is the "default" fate.
>
> The only exceptions known with certainty are Earendil, Elwing, and
> their descendants.
I was going to say Luthien is the exception, but technically I suppose
she wasn't a purebread elf, being Melian's daughter.
Stan Brown
rec.arts.books.tolkien, Robert J. Kolker <bobk...@comcast.net>
wrote:
>Stan Brown wrote:
>> Mortality was not an "attribute", especially not a curse. It was a
>> _gift_ of Eru, to be free of the Music of the Ainur (which was fate
>> for all other creatures) and to leave the world after dying.
>
>Elrond was half human, but he (by choice) took the fate of elvenkind,
>rather than mankind.
So what's your point? That was not the action of the Valar. It was
Eru himself who decided to give Elrond the chance to turn down the
gift and share the fate of the Elven-kindred.
Robert J. Kolker
Stan Brown wrote:
> In article <RQU2b.206723$It4....@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net> in
> So what's your point? That was not the action of the Valar. It was
> Eru himself who decided to give Elrond the chance to turn down the
> gift and share the fate of the Elven-kindred.
But Arwen is genetically 1/4 human.
Bob Kolker
Tar-Elenion
Tar-Elenion
noe...@hotmail.com says...
She is an exception in that she was the _only_ 'immortal' allowed to
become 'mortal'.
Tar-Elenion
conrad.d...@worldnet.att.net says...
> Tar-Elenion <tar_e...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<MPG.19b57da7e...@news.comcast.giganews.com>...
>
> > When Dior was born both of his parents were mortal.
>
> And yet, Tolkien called him the 'first of the Peredhil'.
I think you are taking my comment out of context. He was the first of the
Peredhil as he had mixed blood.
>
> > When Elwing was born her mother was an 'immortal', but her father was
> > (most likely, Conrad disagrees) mortal.
>
> Heh... as you note, I disagree. Nothing which Tolkien wrote makes
> Dior >inescapably< mortal (see below) and one passage which he did
> write makes Dior explicitly immortal like the Elves.
(I probably never should have given you that passage. ;)- )
Though the later passage of the Judgement strongly implies that Dior's
fate would have been that of Men (unless he were somehow granted a
choice). I will note that Dior 'grew up' in less time than an Elf (being
married by thiry).
>
> > Both Earendil and Elwing were mortal when their sons were born.
>
> I'd say they were 'indeterminate'. They eventually both chose
> immortality and thus in some sense were never 'mortal'. They might
> have had the 'capacity to be mortal' had the choice of kindred been
> denied to them or if they had chosen differently.
I would not. I would say they were mortal until they were given a choice
(and indeed they grew up like 'mortals', not Elves, as they were wed at
around 25 years of age).
>
> > Accoriding to the Judgement of Manwe mortality would be the dominant
> > trait, as anyone with any mortal blood was mortal, unless specifically
> > granted other doom.
>
> Christopher and others have taken this to mean that Dior must have
> been mortal... but that assumes that Dior was not given a choice.
> Facts not in evidence. Tolkien wrote that Dior had the same fate as
> the Elves, that Dior was Peredhil, and that the Peredhil were given a
> choice. All three of those references are from older texts, but I'd
> still argue that 'old texts' outweigh 'no texts'... and there are no
> texts which say that Dior was not given a choice and/or was mortal.
>
I would not say that the Judgement of Manwe is 'no text' (just as there
is no text that states Dior was given a choice), and regardless of CT's
comments on it it is the logical conclusion (from the text) that Dior was
mortal (it could be argued that Dior may later have been given a choice,
but this would have to be after his death and after Earendil and Elwing
were granted Choices).
teepee
"Tar-Elenion" <tar_e...@hotmail.com>
> She is an exception in that she was the _only_ 'immortal' allowed to
> become 'mortal'.
Except for Arwen herself of course. Raises the question - was Elros an
immortal who became mortal or a mortal who stayed mortal. And how would
you tell the difference? Is there a difference?
Tar-Elenion
noe...@hotmail.com says...
Arwen was not an 'immortal'. Luthien was an absolute exception.
"So it is that Lúthien Tinúviel alone of the Elf-kindred has died indeed
and left the world, and they have lost her whom they most loved."
LotR, FotR
"So it was that alone of the Eldalië she [Lúthien] has died indeed, and
left the world long ago."
The Silmarilion
"In the primary story of Lúthien and Beren, Luthien is allowed as an
absolute exception to divest herself of 'immonality' and become
'mortal'...".
Letter 153
Elros was a mortal who stayed mortal.
Pradera
>
> Elros was a mortal who stayed mortal.
>
>
Elros and Elrond were Schrodinger's Elves :)
teepee
"Tar-Elenion" <tar_e...@hotmail.com> wrote
> Arwen was not an 'immortal'.
Could you explain please? I thought she was. She had access to some
great face cream for a mortal 8-)
Conrad Dunkerson
> I think you are taking my comment out of context. He was the first of the
> Peredhil as he had mixed blood.
Hrrrmmm... I'm not sure what connotations you are reading into what I
wrote. I agree with the context of what you said... when Dior was
born his parents were both mortal. HOWEVER, despite that Dior himself
was said to be Peredhil. I think we agree on these issues so I'm not
sure what was 'out of context'.
> (I probably never should have given you that passage. ;)- )
Heh.
> Though the later passage of the Judgement strongly implies that Dior's
> fate would have been that of Men (unless he were somehow granted a
> choice).
The passage does not mention Dior at all, but yes I agree that it
indicates that anyone of part mortal ancestry would be mortal unless
allowed to choose otherwise. However, we aren't told whether Dior got
to choose. And at that... it was elsewhere said that Elrond's
children would be given a choice but implied that his grandchildren
would not - potentially contradicting the 'mortal by default' bit.
> I will note that Dior 'grew up' in less time than an Elf (being
> married by thiry).
True, but so did both Earendil and Elwing... as I see you note below.
Given that they wound up as immortals Dior's early maturation does not
argue against him doing so as well. It really comes down to whether
he got a choice or not... and the only evidence either way on that is
the bit about the Peredhil being given the choice.
> I would not. I would say they were mortal until they were given a choice
> (and indeed they grew up like 'mortals', not Elves, as they were wed at
> around 25 years of age).
Even the Valar didn't know their fate until after the discussion and
Judgement. I suppose it is largely a semantic issue... given that
their eventual fate was unknown I consider it an 'indeterminate'
rather than 'mortal by default'. Had Arwen died before meeting
Aragorn I do not think that would have forced her into a 'mortal'
existence. Ditto for her Peredhil ancestors.
> I would not say that the Judgement of Manwe is 'no text'
The 'Judgement of Manwe' does not say that Dior's fate was mortal. It
says that Dior's fate would be mortal if he were not given a choice.
> (just as there is no text that states Dior was given a choice),
Directly. As noted, Dior was called Peredhil and there are texts
which state that the peredhil were given a choice.
> and regardless of CT's comments on it it is the logical conclusion (from
> the text) that Dior was mortal
I don't agree. That is a REASONABLE conclusion, but as the passage
does not speak to Dior at all any conclusion about him does not
proceed from 'logic' but assumption. A "logical conclusion" is 'we
know A and B and C and therefor must conclude D'. This is more 'we
know A and B - if we then assume C we must conclude D'. To conclude
that Dior was mortal it must be assumed that he was not given a
choice... because there is no text which indicates that he was not.
> (it could be argued that Dior may later have been given a choice, but
> this would have to be after his death and after Earendil and Elwing were
> granted Choices).
This, along with Namo's view that peredhil should be automatically
mortal, is the best evidence against Dior having a choice. However,
as you note a choice could have been granted after the fact. It is
also possible that while Dior was dead his spirit had not yet
journeyed to the Halls of Mandos. I don't think this likely, but the
usual 'travel time' is nowhere specified.
If Dior WERE given a choice I think it likely he would have chosen
immortality. His wife was an elf. He ruled an elven kingdom. His
daughter chose immortality. All the indications point that way to me.
And it would seem unjust that Dior and his sons would not be given
the same choice as his daughter and her descendants just because they
had been murdered.
Steuard Jensen
<3f4dd7de$0$46003$65c6...@mercury.nildram.net>:
I think Tar-Elenion's point is that Arwen had some human ancestry, so
she was by default mortal by nature. Elrond's choice to remain
immortal was a "special exception", and even that did not close the
door to his children retaining the mortality that was in some sense
their birthright.
As for Arwen's rather good looks at a rather advanced age, my
impression is that Elrond and his children (and probably Elros, too)
had the "biological potential" for immortality (at least before the
age of Men and the fading of the Elves). It sounds like Arwen simply
chose to go to Lorien and die there after Aragorn's death. (She
didn't get old and wrinkled and die of pancreas failure or something.)
Steuard Jensen
teepee
"Steuard Jensen" <sbje...@midway.uchicago.edu>
> I think Tar-Elenion's point is that Arwen had some human ancestry, so
> she was by default mortal by nature
I see what you mean. Fair point.
What I meant was that she was thousands of years old and looked like she
was aged 18 (I guess.) Had she chosen to, she would have gone to Valinor
and continued to live like that indefinitely. Immortal by any reasonable
definition.
Russ
trippk...@hotmail.com (Tripp Knightly) writes:
>In both the movie / book it seems that Arwen gives up her immortality
>to prevent Frodo's imminent death.... and yet she seems to be giving
>up her immortality later on to marry Aragorn.
Marrying Aragorn.
Russ
Stan Brown
>> Eru himself who decided to give Elrond the chance to turn down the
>> gift and share the fate of the Elven-kindred.
>
>But Arwen is genetically 1/4 human.
So? She had not even been born when the decision was taken about the
fate of _all_ the Peredhil.
Stan Brown
> Raises the question - was Elros an
>immortal who became mortal or a mortal who stayed mortal. And how would
>you tell the difference? Is there a difference?
He was neither -- he was a half-breed who was given by Eru (via the
Valar) the choice of which kindred he wanted to belong to.
Russ
<kriste...@yale.edu> writes:
>Neither, really. Arwen makes "the choice of Luthien" -- i.e. she
>decides to forego living in Valinor to stay in Middle Earth and marry
>Aragorn.
>
>Arrgh. My copy of RoTK seems to have vanished into the ether at the
>moment. What do the appendices say Arwen did when Aragorn died?
She went to Lorien, lay on Cerin Amroth, and died.
Russ
Tar-Elenion
<BB9C57A0.C083%GondhirAtC*H*O*K*L*I*TDo...@IgnoreThis.AndThis>,
GondhirAtC*H*O*K*L*I*TDo...@IgnoreThis.AndThis says...
> Tar-Elenion said:
> > noe...@hotmail.com says...
> >> "Tar-Elenion" <tar_e...@hotmail.com>
> >>> She is an exception in that she was the _only_ 'immortal' allowed to
> >>> become 'mortal'.
> >>
> >> Except for Arwen herself of course. Raises the question - was Elros an
> >> immortal who became mortal or a mortal who stayed mortal. And how would
> >> you tell the difference? Is there a difference?
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Arwen was not an 'immortal'. Luthien was an absolute exception.
>
>
> > "So it is that Lúthien Tinúviel alone of the Elf-kindred has died indeed
> > and left the world, and they have lost her whom they most loved."
> > LotR, FotR
>
> choice to stay behind. If Arwen *was* an immortal who later decided to be
> mortal, this quote would still be accurate. Moreover, she certainly hadn't
> "died indeed and left the world" yet.
>
> > "So it was that alone of the Eldalië she [Lúthien] has died indeed, and
> > left the world long ago."
> > The Silmarilion
>
> again, before she "died indeed".
>
> > "In the primary story of Lúthien and Beren, Luthien is allowed as an
> > absolute exception to divest herself of 'immonality' and become
> > 'mortal'...".
> > Letter 153
>
> two.
>
> > Elros was a mortal who stayed mortal.
>
> time. Likewise, Elladan and Elrohir were mortals who became immortal.
Maybe, maybe not (choosing 'immortality', that is). ;)
> However, I think the distinction is largely academic. I think that if any of
> Elrond's children had died before he took the ship Westward, their souls
> would have been stopped at Mandos (as Beren's was "on his way out") and
> given the choice.
>
I pretty much agree. The fine distinction between Elves and Men is,
however, not how long they live, but rather what happens when they die.
The Doom granted Elrond's children was to live with the 'youth of the
Eldar' until the time came for them to make a choice. I think they were
in _fate_ mortal until they made a choice (based on the Judgement of
Manwe) but I essentially agree that if they had been killed before they
made a Choice they would likely have been made to choose then.
Tar-Elenion
noe...@hotmail.com says...
As I mention elsewhere in this thread the difference between 'mortals'
and 'immortals' among the Children of God is not how long they live, but
what happens when they die.
--
Tar-Elenion
>
> > I think you are taking my comment out of context. He was the first of the
> > Peredhil as he had mixed blood.
>
> Hrrrmmm... I'm not sure what connotations you are reading into what I
> wrote. I agree with the context of what you said... when Dior was
> born his parents were both mortal. HOWEVER, despite that Dior himself
> was said to be Peredhil. I think we agree on these issues so I'm not
> sure what was 'out of context'.
That this was not about what Dior might have become, but rather the
statement that there were two generations of immortal's on both sides of
(was it Elrond and Elros?) heritage were when, at least at the time many
were having children they were not 'immortal' (only Idril and Nimloth).
>
> > (I probably never should have given you that passage. ;)- )
>
> Heh.
>
> > Though the later passage of the Judgement strongly implies that Dior's
> > fate would have been that of Men (unless he were somehow granted a
> > choice).
>
> The passage does not mention Dior at all, but yes I agree that it
> indicates that anyone of part mortal ancestry would be mortal unless
> allowed to choose otherwise. However, we aren't told whether Dior got
> to choose. And at that... it was elsewhere said that Elrond's
> children would be given a choice but implied that his grandchildren
> would not - potentially contradicting the 'mortal by default' bit.
>
> > I will note that Dior 'grew up' in less time than an Elf (being
> > married by thiry).
>
> True, but so did both Earendil and Elwing... as I see you note below.
> Given that they wound up as immortals Dior's early maturation does not
> argue against him doing so as well. It really comes down to whether
> he got a choice or not... and the only evidence either way on that is
> the bit about the Peredhil being given the choice.
My point was that as he (and Earendil and Elwing) grew up like mortals
they were mortal (until granted a Choice).
<snip stuff that we either agree about, or will never agree about>
>
> > (it could be argued that Dior may later have been given a choice, but
> > this would have to be after his death and after Earendil and Elwing were
> > granted Choices).
>
> This, along with Namo's view that peredhil should be automatically
> mortal, is the best evidence against Dior having a choice. However,
> as you note a choice could have been granted after the fact. It is
> also possible that while Dior was dead his spirit had not yet
> journeyed to the Halls of Mandos. I don't think this likely, but the
> usual 'travel time' is nowhere specified.
>
>
> If Dior WERE given a choice I think it likely he would have chosen
> immortality. His wife was an elf. He ruled an elven kingdom. His
> daughter chose immortality. All the indications point that way to me.
> And it would seem unjust that Dior and his sons would not be given
> the same choice as his daughter and her descendants just because they
> had been murdered.
>
I like to think so as well. In fact I think it would only be right that
Dior (and his sons) were granted a choice, but I think this could only
have been done after there deaths (and, indeed, after Earendil and Elwing
had chosen).
Russ
<tar_e...@hotmail.com> writes:
<snip>
>> If Dior WERE given a choice I think it likely he would have chosen
>> immortality. His wife was an elf. He ruled an elven kingdom. His
>> daughter chose immortality. All the indications point that way to me.
>> And it would seem unjust that Dior and his sons would not be given
>> the same choice as his daughter and her descendants just because they
>> had been murdered.
>>
>
>I like to think so as well. In fact I think it would only be right that
>Dior (and his sons) were granted a choice, but I think this could only
>have been done after there deaths (and, indeed, after Earendil and Elwing
>had chosen).
The problem with that is that Mandos would already have known Dior's fate when
Earendil and Elwing showed up. From the story of Beren and Luthien, it appears
that a mortal fear's stay in Mandos is quite short.
People mention that Dior married an elf, but let's not forget that his parents,
at the time of his conception, were both mortal. On the other hand, in the
case of both Earendil and Elwing, one of their birthparents (Idril and Nimloth,
respectively) was immortal at their conception. Thus is Mandos assumed
Earendil and Elwing were mortal, Dior, whose parents were mortal, would most
likely have passed through his halls as a mortal.
The fact that Dior's spouse was immortal is not overly compelling. Why would
Beren and Luthien's separation from their fruit of their epic love, their only
child, be any less tragic than Nimloth's separation from her husband? Look at
how Tolkien porrayed Elrond's grief at his separation from Arwen.
Russ
teepee
"Tar-Elenion" <tar_e...@hotmail.com> wrote
> As I mention elsewhere in this thread the difference between 'mortals'
> and 'immortals' among the Children of God is not how long they live,
but
> what happens when they die.
I see your point now. So had the children of Elrond died before making
their choice, they would have left the circles of the world?
As a matter of interest, what's the source of your thought that "The
Doom granted Elrond's children was to live with the 'youth of the Eldar'
until the time came for them to make a choice." I'd like to read further
on this.
teepee
"Tar-Elenion" <tar_e...@hotmail.com> wrote
> As I mention elsewhere in this thread the difference between 'mortals'
> and 'immortals' among the Children of God is not how long they live,
but
> what happens when they die.
I should add that my original misapprehansion stems from this quote in
Appendix A:
"To the children of Elrond, a choice was also appointed: to pass with
him from the circles of the world; or if they remained to become mortal
and die in Middle-earth"
Become mortal rather implied they were immortal till then, But I think I
like your explanation better.
Conrad Dunkerson
> conrad.d...@worldnet.att.net says...
>> I think we agree on these issues so I'm not sure what was 'out of
context'.
> That this was not about what Dior might have become, but rather the
> statement that there were two generations of immortal's on both sides of
> (was it Elrond and Elros?) heritage were when, at least at the time many
> were having children they were not 'immortal' (only Idril and Nimloth).
Oh that... sorry, I wasn't even touching that. I agree that there
weren't two generations of immortals before whichever of them and
didn't mean to imply otherwise. I was just focusing on Dior himself.
> My point was that as he (and Earendil and Elwing) grew up like mortals
> they were mortal (until granted a Choice).
Or... that the peredhil always grew like mortals but then lived
forever like Eldar until/unless they made a choice. See, given the
view that each and every one of the peredhil was given a choice even
if they 'died' early then they cannot really said to be 'mortal'
until/unless they choose that. My view that they were not 'mortal'
per se precedes from my view that they all got a choice... the two are
interlinked. I think you view them as 'mortal by default' because
there may have been circumstances under which some of them DIDN'T get
a choice. That is really the point of disagreement and the 'mortal' /
'not mortal' difference flows directly from it.
> I like to think so as well. In fact I think it would only be right that
> Dior (and his sons) were granted a choice, but I think this could only
> have been done after there deaths (and, indeed, after Earendil and Elwing
> had chosen).
Yes, certainly... it was clear that the issue hadn't been discussed
before that and Eru had not 'handed down a ruling'. Since Namo was
running the shop as he saw fit before then and he clearly felt they
should be mortal it is >possible< that Dior and sons had shown up and
been promptly shuffled off to the 'unknown fate of Men beyond the
world' and never given a chance for appeal. Possible, but nowhere
stated and seemingly unjust.
Conrad Dunkerson
> The problem with that is that Mandos would already have known Dior's fate
> when Earendil and Elwing showed up. From the story of Beren and Luthien,
> it appears that a mortal fear's stay in Mandos is quite short.
Bah... did I say it was good to have you back for the opposing
opinions? I must have been smoking something. :]
Mandos MAY have already 'processed' Dior and his sons as mortals, but
it is also possible that their fear hadn't shown up yet. Even if he
HAD already tossed them out into the Beyond it is still possible that
Eru would have allowed them a retro-active choice.
> People mention that Dior married an elf, but let's not forget that his
> parents, at the time of his conception, were both mortal.
However, Dior himself was called 'peredhil' despite that... and there
is still the question of Dior's sons. Elwing was their sister. If we
are putting this entirely on 'status of parents at time of conception'
then they should have gotten exactly the same treatment as Elwing.
> The fact that Dior's spouse was immortal is not overly compelling. Why would
> Beren and Luthien's separation from their fruit of their epic love, their only
> child, be any less tragic than Nimloth's separation from her husband?
Because, as the homophobic say incessantly, 'the institution of
marriage is sacred'. Remember... Tolkien was a devout Catholic. Is
it really that much of a stretch to think that he believed spouses
should remain together for all time? Consider the mess with Finwe and
Miriel and how everyone was confused by the incongruity of spouses
being separated. Separation from a child might be just as 'tragic',
but it would not be a violation of a sacrament.
Yuk Tang
news:6tfskvkuuo3bo6q7n...@4ax.com:
>
> Arrgh. My copy of RoTK seems to have vanished into the ether at the
> moment. What do the appendices say Arwen did when Aragorn died?
She loses interest in the world, makes her way to Cerin Amroth, then
dies. As shown in PJTTT.
--
Cheers, ymt.
Russ
conrad.d...@worldnet.att.net (Conrad Dunkerson) writes:
>mcr...@aol.comnojunk (Russ) wrote in message
>news:<20030828163125...@mb-m27.aol.com>...
>
>> The problem with that is that Mandos would already have known Dior's fate
>> when Earendil and Elwing showed up. From the story of Beren and Luthien,
>> it appears that a mortal fear's stay in Mandos is quite short.
>
>Bah... did I say it was good to have you back for the opposing
>opinions? I must have been smoking something. :]
>
>Mandos MAY have already 'processed' Dior and his sons as mortals, but
>it is also possible that their fear hadn't shown up yet.
What evidence do you have that Dior's fea did not go directly to Mandos? The
only examples I can think of off the top of my head of delays are 'evildoers'
such as Ar-Pharazon and his crew and the Dead Men of Dunharrow.
My impression is that a disembodied mortal fea's stay in Arda is quite short.
The time between Dior's death and Earendil's voyage is, what, about 40 years?
> Even if he
>HAD already tossed them out into the Beyond it is still possible that
>Eru would have allowed them a retro-active choice.
Why? Mortality was the *Gift* of Eru. In Tolkien's universe that was a "Good
Thing"
>> People mention that Dior married an elf, but let's not forget that his
>> parents, at the time of his conception, were both mortal.
>
>However, Dior himself was called 'peredhil' despite that...
A term which didn't have much impact on the council's deliberation.
>and there
>is still the question of Dior's sons. Elwing was their sister. If we
>are putting this entirely on 'status of parents at time of conception'
I didn't say 'entirely'.
>then they should have gotten exactly the same treatment as Elwing.
Earendil and Elwing were given special dispensation because of their sacrafices
- although I'm not really sure how their sacrafices were any greater than other
people, but be that as it may.
>> The fact that Dior's spouse was immortal is not overly compelling. Why
>would
>> Beren and Luthien's separation from their fruit of their epic love, their
>only
>> child, be any less tragic than Nimloth's separation from her husband?
>
>Because, as the homophobic say incessantly, 'the institution of
>marriage is sacred'. Remember... Tolkien was a devout Catholic. Is
>it really that much of a stretch to think that he believed spouses
>should remain together for all time? Consider the mess with Finwe and
>Miriel and how everyone was confused by the incongruity of spouses
>being separated.
No, the incongruity was not their being separated but Finwe remarrying. Plenty
of spouses were separated, for example, at the Noldorin Rebellion - Feanor and
in some conceptions Finrod come to mind. Miriel was not overly concerned with
being separated from Finwe (and Feanor for that matter) and Finwe is separated
from both Miriel and Indis now.
>Separation from a child might be just as 'tragic',
>but it would not be a violation of a sacrament.
Nit: in Catholic doctrine, marriage is not a sacrament until Jesus came.
Russ
Russ
conrad.d...@worldnet.att.net (Conrad Dunkerson) writes:
<snip>
>> I like to think so as well. In fact I think it would only be right that
>> Dior (and his sons) were granted a choice, but I think this could only
>> have been done after there deaths (and, indeed, after Earendil and Elwing
>> had chosen).
>
>Yes, certainly... it was clear that the issue hadn't been discussed
>before that and Eru had not 'handed down a ruling'. Since Namo was
>running the shop as he saw fit before then and he clearly felt they
>should be mortal it is >possible< that Dior and sons had shown up and
>been promptly shuffled off to the 'unknown fate of Men beyond the
>world' and never given a chance for appeal. Possible, but nowhere
>stated and seemingly unjust.
>
Why unjust? I think there is a big misconception here since we are of course,
Mortal Men. In Tolkien's universe, Mortality was the *Gift* of Eru. It was
intended at a better fate than immortality within Arda. It was Melkor who
twisted Man's perception of death into something other than it was.
Russ
Donald Shepherd
> In Tolkien's universe, Mortality was the *Gift* of Eru. It was
> intended at a better fate than immortality within Arda. It was Melkor who
> twisted Man's perception of death into something other than it was.
This also roughly parallels the idea that death can be a gift to a
suitably pious Christian, getting to spend their time in Heaven as they
do. It is only those too corrupted (by Melkor/Satan) that should have a
reason to fear death.
--
Donald Shepherd
<donald_shepherd @ hotmail . com>
"Tragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you fall into an open
sewer and die." - Mel Brooks
Stan Brown
>The problem with that is that Mandos would already have known Dior's fate when
>Earendil and Elwing showed up. From the story of Beren and Luthien, it appears
>that a mortal fear's stay in Mandos is quite short.
Citation, please? (The singular is fea, by the way.)
>People mention that Dior married an elf, but let's not forget that his parents,
>at the time of his conception, were both mortal.
Were they? Was Luthien actually a mortal then, or was she just an
Elf who had been granted the gift of following her mortal husband in
death?
Yes, I know I'm splitting hairs, but I think this whole discussion
is hair-splitting. For persons of mixed ancestry, I think it's a
mistake to say that they _were_ Elf or _were_ human at any point
before they actually died, or at least before they made an official
choice and it was registered (as Earendil had Elwing do for the
both of them).
Somebody joked about "Schrodinger's Elves", but I think their point
was well taken.
Stan Brown
rec.arts.books.tolkien, Conrad Dunkerson
>Remember... Tolkien was a devout Catholic. Is
>it really that much of a stretch to think that he believed spouses
>should remain together for all time? Consider the mess with Finwe and
>Miriel and how everyone was confused by the incongruity of spouses
>being separated.
I never made that connection before.
I wonder whether Tolkien conceived that story, at least in part, as
a protest against the increasingly easy divorce of his times? (I
almost wrote "an allegorical protest", but then I remembered this is
Tolkien. :-)
Stan Brown
rec.arts.books.tolkien, Conrad Dunkerson
<conrad.d...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>before that and Eru had not 'handed down a ruling'. Since Namo was
>running the shop as he saw fit before then and he clearly felt they
>should be mortal it is >possible< that Dior and sons had shown up and
>been promptly shuffled off to the 'unknown fate of Men beyond the
>world' and never given a chance for appeal. Possible, but nowhere
>stated and seemingly unjust.
Does Mandos (the Vala) "shuffle off" the spirits of Men, or do they
leave because that is in their nature?
"Chance for appeal"? Mortality was a _gift_, not a punishment. About
the only reason for turning it down would be to share the fate of
someone dearer to you than life or death.
True, mortals in Middle-earth began looking on mortality as a curse.
But surely when they entered Mandos (the place) they would realize
it was in fact a blessing.
TradeSurplus
>noe...@hotmail.com says...
>>
>> What I meant was that she was thousands of years old and looked like she
>> was aged 18 (I guess.) Had she chosen to, she would have gone to Valinor
>> and continued to live like that indefinitely. Immortal by any reasonable
>> definition.
>
>As I mention elsewhere in this thread the difference between 'mortals'
>and 'immortals' among the Children of God is not how long they live, but
>what happens when they die.
It has to be something more than just that. Mortals will, before very long
in the grand scheme of things, want to leave their bodies. If their bodies
survive too long they will either go crazy or become monsters. Thus there is
a difference between mortal and immortal souls even while alive. ISTM that
Arwen's soul must have been something other than mortal until she made her
choice, else she would have gone crazy with the desire to leave her body.
Trade.
Tar-Elenion
trades...@hotmail.com says...
_Men_ will naturally 'seek elsewhither'. Arwen was not a Man (anymore
than she was an Elf). She was a Peredhel. As the App. state she was
permitted to live with the 'youth of the Eldar'.
TradeSurplus
>trades...@hotmail.com says...
>> Thus there is
>> a difference between mortal and immortal souls even while alive. ISTM
that
>> Arwen's soul must have been something other than mortal until she made
her
>> choice, else she would have gone crazy with the desire to leave her body.
>
>_Men_ will naturally 'seek elsewhither'. Arwen was not a Man (anymore
>than she was an Elf). She was a Peredhel. As the App. state she was
>permitted to live with the 'youth of the Eldar'.
Good point. It gives a better understanding of Arwen's reluctance to part
with life. Aragorn did 'seek elsewhither' and voluntarily give up his life.
Arwen did not. She would have been quite content to live until the end of
Arda, if not for Aragorn. Thus death for her was not as much a gift as it
would be for a Man.
I always thought Arwen was a bit of a wimp to fear death so, when Aragorn
was satisfied with so much less life, but now I feel more pity for her.
Trade.
Robert J. Kolker
TradeSurplus wrote:
> Arda, if not for Aragorn. Thus death for her was not as much a gift as it
> would be for a Man.
> I always thought Arwen was a bit of a wimp to fear death so, when Aragorn
> was satisfied with so much less life, but now I feel more pity for her.
Aragorn was unusual for a Man. While he did not know exactly what his
fate after death would be, he knew it would be greater than that of
Elvenkind. His spirit would not be econompassed and bound by Arda in
space and time. This is a very large leap of faith and most Men were not
capable of it, which why they feared/loathed death and why they envied
the immortals. Morgoth excacerbated this fear and loathing of death and
Sauron used it to turn the Numenoreans against the Valar and the Eldar.
Arwen did not catch on like Aragorn did, so the parting for her was a
bitter thing. She died in Middle Earth because she did not want to go on
without her husband. I don't think she realized what a great future
might be waiting for her beyond the Circles of the World. Aragorn's last
words to her were precisely this matter, but she was so busted up she
did not get it. I doubt whether she ever got it.
Bob Kolker
Gunnar Krüger
news:20030828163125...@mb-m27.aol.com...
> The fact that Dior's spouse was immortal is not overly compelling. Why would
> Beren and Luthien's separation from their fruit of their epic love, their only
> child, be any less tragic than Nimloth's separation from her husband? Look at
> how Tolkien porrayed Elrond's grief at his separation from Arwen.
Well, there is a little difference in the two cases you compare. Beren and
Luthien were both mortal and thus doomed to leave the world at their death
to the unknown fate of Men. So for all we know, for Mortals Death might very
well be the end and a separation for all times. Of course, there sure is the
possibility of their fear dwelling with Eru after Death, but IMHO this is
nowhere made explicit.
For Elrond OTOH the separation from Arwen is a real separation for he has
chosen immortality in Arda, to exist as long as Arda does. So when Arwen
dies as a mortal, this means for him that he still has an indefinite
lifetime ahead of him in which to mourn the loss of his child, whereas Beren
and Luthien are already dead (and have thus already left Arda) when the time
of Dior's death (and thus the final judgement on his fate) approaches.
Gunnar
--
Democracy is the worst system of government known to man;
with the exception of all the others we've seen so far.
[Winston Churchill]
Russ
=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Kr=FCger?=" <fen...@gmx.net> writes:
>"Russ" <mcr...@aol.comnojunk> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
>news:20030828163125...@mb-m27.aol.com...
>
>> The fact that Dior's spouse was immortal is not overly compelling. Why
>would
>> Beren and Luthien's separation from their fruit of their epic love, their
>only
>> child, be any less tragic than Nimloth's separation from her husband? Look
>at
>> how Tolkien porrayed Elrond's grief at his separation from Arwen.
>
>Well, there is a little difference in the two cases you compare. Beren and
>Luthien were both mortal and thus doomed to leave the world at their death
>to the unknown fate of Men. So for all we know, for Mortals Death might very
>well be the end and a separation for all times. Of course, there sure is the
>possibility of their fear dwelling with Eru after Death, but IMHO this is
>nowhere made explicit.
Well, actually it almsot is. Beren's mortal fea didn't disintegrate. It hung
out in Mandos for a time. Clearly there is a fate for mortal fear beyond Arda.
else why would they even survive the death of the hroa?
>For Elrond OTOH the separation from Arwen is a real separation for he has
>chosen immortality in Arda, to exist as long as Arda does. So when Arwen
>dies as a mortal, this means for him that he still has an indefinite
>lifetime ahead of him in which to mourn the loss of his child,
He seems to have recovered from the passing of his twin brother.
>whereas Beren
>and Luthien are already dead (and have thus already left Arda) when the time
>of Dior's death (and thus the final judgement on his fate) approaches.
That's still forgetting that mortality if the GIFT of Eru. It's a good thing.
Leaving the bounds of Arda, indeed, Ea, is a good thing.
Russ
Anansii
the_sta...@fastmail.fm says...
> >
> >But Arwen is genetically 1/4 human.
>
> So? She had not even been born when the decision was taken about the
> fate of _all_ the Peredhil.
>
>
choice he and his brother had - to be elves or Men. Except that
the choice for Elrond's children was to be made when Elrond left
Middle Earth. Arwen stayed behind with Aragorn, thus she became
human. (One wonders what Elros' kids thought of the whole thing
- THEY had to stick with the same choice their father made frothe
sound of it. Then again, they may have had the same outlook as
their dad which made him chose mortality.)
And speaking of going overseas, I've always wondered what
ultimately became of the Ringbearers after they got to Valinor.
My guess is that they lived there long enough to recover
spiritually from their ordeals, then died and went wherever Eru
puts Hobbits, but nowhere does it really say.
That and how long do elves have to wait in the Houses of Mandos
before being allowed back into the rest of Valinor?
--
To email the Spider, replace invalid with hotmail...
Michelle J. Haines
ana...@hotmail.com says...
>
> My guess is that they lived there long enough to recover
> spiritually from their ordeals, then died and went wherever Eru
> puts Hobbits, but nowhere does it really say.
Since they're referred to as a type of Man, presumably they share
that fate.
Michelle
Flutist
--
In my heart. By my side.
Never apart. AP with Pride!
Katrina Marie (10/19/96)
Xander Ryan (09/22/98 - 02/23/99)
Gareth Xander (07/17/00) Zachary Mitchell
Theona Alexis (06/03/03) (01/12/94, fostered 09/05/01 - 07/23/03)
Bill O'Meally
"Anansii" <ana...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.19bb3a468...@news.west.earthlink.net...
> And speaking of going overseas, I've always wondered what
> ultimately became of the Ringbearers after they got to Valinor.
> My guess is that they lived there long enough to recover
> spiritually from their ordeals, then died and went wherever Eru
> puts Hobbits, but nowhere does it really say.
He pretty much says that.
"Frodo was sent or allowed to pass over Sea to heal him - if that could
be done, before he died."
Letters # 246 p 328.
And Hobbits, being human, would go where Eru puts Men.
--
Bill
"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
TradeSurplus
>
>That and how long do elves have to wait in the Houses of Mandos
>before being allowed back into the rest of Valinor?
Long enough to atone for their sins. The more sins an Elf committed, the
longer he stayed in Mandos. It is said that Feanor (for example) will never
get out of Mandos because he won't be finished atoning for his sins before
the end of Arda.
Trade.
Morgil
"TradeSurplus" <trades...@hotmail.com> kirjoitti
viestissä:0nn4b.3015$uP....@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com...
Where does it say that? As far as I know, we are never
told why Feanor remains in Mandos. Maybe he prefers
to stay with his mother and father?
The way I see it, Mandos is a place of redemption and
self improvement, not atonement. Maybe the reason
Feanor is not let out is that he refuses to admit his actions
were unjustified.
Morgil
AC
Anansii <ana...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> And speaking of going overseas, I've always wondered what
> ultimately became of the Ringbearers after they got to Valinor.
> My guess is that they lived there long enough to recover
> spiritually from their ordeals, then died and went wherever Eru
> puts Hobbits, but nowhere does it really say.
Hobbits are humans, and thus share the same fate as Men.
--
Aaron Clausen
Paul S. Person
<snippo>
>I can't comment on the bit in the movie version of FotR: I think it's
>pretty weird, to tell you the truth, and it's one of the parts of
>Arwen's expanded role there that I could most easily do without. I
>have a feeling that it was a throwaway line that won't be mentioned
>again in RotK, but it's probably safest just to wait and see.
I think is has a very simple explanation: it is modernistic
psuedo-spiritual babble. It jars because it is nothing JRRT would have
written or even thought to write. It has no meaning -- except for what
it says of the mental state of all those responsible for it being
there. PJ could have had a flying saucer or bigfoot appear and wisk
Frodo off to Rivendell or Nessie appear and eat the Nazgul and the
effect would have been no more jarring.
--
You are not being ignored! With rare exceptions:
I download on Saturdays. I upload on Sundays. Patience is a virtue
TradeSurplus
>"TradeSurplus" <trades...@hotmail.com> kirjoitti
>>> Anansii wrote ...
>> >
>> >That and how long do elves have to wait in the Houses of Mandos
>> >before being allowed back into the rest of Valinor?
>>
>> Long enough to atone for their sins. The more sins an Elf committed, the
>> longer he stayed in Mandos. It is said that Feanor (for example) will
never
>> get out of Mandos because he won't be finished atoning for his sins
before
>> the end of Arda.
>
>Where does it say that? As far as I know, we are never
>told why Feanor remains in Mandos. Maybe he prefers
>to stay with his mother and father?
True, I don't have any text to back up that assertion. It does seem the most
likely reason for Feanor's long stay in Mandos though.
>The way I see it, Mandos is a place of redemption and
>self improvement, not atonement. Maybe the reason
>Feanor is not let out is that he refuses to admit his actions
>were unjustified.
No problem. I'm not going to get into two simultaneous arguments on
definitions of words. I retract 'atonement' and resubmit; "Long enough to
achieve redemption and self-improvement."
Trade.
Stan Brown
>I've always wondered what
>ultimately became of the Ringbearers after they got to Valinor.
>My guess is that they lived there long enough to recover
>spiritually from their ordeals, then died and went wherever Eru
>puts Hobbits, but nowhere does it really say.
Tolkien deals with this several times in /Letters/, and what you say
agrees with what he says.
None
>
> Morgil wrote ...
> >"TradeSurplus" <trades...@hotmail.com> kirjoitti
> >>> Anansii wrote ...
> >> >
> >> >That and how long do elves have to wait in the Houses of Mandos
> >> >before being allowed back into the rest of Valinor?
> >>
> >> Long enough to atone for their sins. The more sins an Elf committed, the
> >> longer he stayed in Mandos. It is said that Feanor (for example) will
> never
> >> get out of Mandos because he won't be finished atoning for his sins
> before
> >> the end of Arda.
> >
> >Where does it say that? As far as I know, we are never
> >told why Feanor remains in Mandos. Maybe he prefers
> >to stay with his mother and father?
>
> True, I don't have any text to back up that assertion. It does seem the most
> likely reason for Feanor's long stay in Mandos though.
Perhaps you should pick up a copy of "Letters". You can usually back up
the most unlikely assertions with what's written there.
<waves: Hi AC! Hi Conrad!>
> >The way I see it, Mandos is a place of redemption and
> >self improvement, not atonement. Maybe the reason
> >Feanor is not let out is that he refuses to admit his actions
> >were unjustified.
>
> No problem. I'm not going to get into two simultaneous arguments on
> definitions of words. I retract 'atonement' and resubmit; "Long enough to
> achieve redemption and self-improvement."
>
> Trade.
You're saying the same thing. There is no extant written indication of
how long Feanor would stay in Mandos - with the caveat of the Letters
referred to above.
In fact the whole thing smacks of vested interests. Feanor offends the
Gods by disobeying their edict [with huge provocation] this leads to the
Kinslaying [unreasonable Teleri of course] and the betrayal of part of
the Host [damn' stragglers anyway] and then he dies by Balrog Whip.
It seems an independent entity should have been drafted in from some
other universe to make the call on this one...
None.
Tar-Elenion
> TradeSurplus wrote:
> >
> > Morgil wrote ...
> > >
> > >Where does it say that? As far as I know, we are never
> > >told why Feanor remains in Mandos. Maybe he prefers
> > >to stay with his mother and father?
> >
> > True, I don't have any text to back up that assertion. It does seem the most
> > likely reason for Feanor's long stay in Mandos though.
>
> Perhaps you should pick up a copy of "Letters". You can usually back up
> the most unlikely assertions with what's written there.
>
> <waves: Hi AC! Hi Conrad!>
>
> > >The way I see it, Mandos is a place of redemption and
> > >self improvement, not atonement. Maybe the reason
> > >Feanor is not let out is that he refuses to admit his actions
> > >were unjustified.
> >
> > No problem. I'm not going to get into two simultaneous arguments on
> > definitions of words. I retract 'atonement' and resubmit; "Long enough to
> > achieve redemption and self-improvement."
> >
> > Trade.
>
> You're saying the same thing. There is no extant written indication of
> how long Feanor would stay in Mandos - with the caveat of the Letters
> referred to above.
And several places in HoME, and The Silmarillion as well.
johnny_lepton
On 31-Aug-2003, "TradeSurplus" <trades...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >Where does it say that? As far as I know, we are never
> >told why Feanor remains in Mandos. Maybe he prefers
> >to stay with his mother and father?
>
> True, I don't have any text to back up that assertion. It does seem the
> most
> likely reason for Feanor's long stay in Mandos though.
My guess is that he's just too stubborn to ever leave! Later "guests" of
Mandos (Luthien?) would probably have shamed him into staying, assuming of
course, that they relay the later tales of the Silmarils to him.
x-- 100 Proof News - http://www.100ProofNews.com
x-- 3,500+ Binary NewsGroups, and over 90,000 other groups
x-- Access to over 800 Gigs/Day - $8.95/Month
x-- UNLIMITED DOWNLOAD
Johnny1A
> "TradeSurplus" <trades...@hotmail.com> kirjoitti
> viestissä:0nn4b.3015$uP....@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com...
> > Anansii wrote ...
> > >
> > >That and how long do elves have to wait in the Houses of Mandos
> > >before being allowed back into the rest of Valinor?
> >
> > Long enough to atone for their sins. The more sins an Elf committed, the
> > longer he stayed in Mandos. It is said that Feanor (for example) will
> never
> > get out of Mandos because he won't be finished atoning for his sins before
> > the end of Arda.
>
> Where does it say that? As far as I know, we are never
> told why Feanor remains in Mandos. Maybe he prefers
> to stay with his mother and father?
That's not all that improbable, really. Miriel, after all, refused to
return when she could, which is one of the original root sources of
Feanor's resentment of his half-brethren. Whether Feanor-the-shade is
able to spend time with his mother is an open question. His father, I
can see, since Finwe was guilty of nothing in particular, save
(perhaps) too much pride in his son. But Miriel and Feanor have
Issues.
Shermanlee
Stan Brown
rec.arts.books.tolkien, Morgil <more...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>By earthly laws, he should have right to do both of
>these things - freedom of speech and right for property and
>so on - and Valar were wrong to punish him for the Oath.
If I interpret the Silmarillion correctly, even taking the Oath was
a sin: "They swore an oath which ... none should take, by the name
even of Ilúvatar. ..."
But I don't think he was being punished. He was left alone to work
out his own destiny. When he was killed (inevitable, sooner or
later), he came to Mandos like any other Elf. But he needed more
time to learn humility and wisdom to match his other great gifts.
Among other reasons, he would probably not be ready to face all the
other Elves in Valinor and on Tol Eressëa after he had led them so
disastrously badly.
Morgil
"Stan Brown" <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> kirjoitti
viestissä:MPG.19bd5069f...@news.odyssey.net...
> In article <biuuep$d73vp$1...@ID-81911.news.uni-berlin.de> in
> rec.arts.books.tolkien, Morgil <more...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >By earthly laws, he should have right to do both of
> >these things - freedom of speech and right for property and
> >so on - and Valar were wrong to punish him for the Oath.
>
> If I interpret the Silmarillion correctly, even taking the Oath was
> a sin: "They swore an oath which ... none should take, by the name
> even of Ilúvatar. ..."
That is what I was trying to say - a major Sin but not a Crime.
> But I don't think he was being punished. He was left alone to work
> out his own destiny.
"But thou Fëanor Finwë's son, by thine oath art exiled"...
When he was killed (inevitable, sooner or
> later), he came to Mandos like any other Elf. But he needed more
> time to learn humility and wisdom to match his other great gifts.
That is also my theory.
Morgil
wrob
This is all fascinating, but we don't have any idea what might be waiting
for them, since it is a fictional story. We are not told what their fate
might be, the issue is deliberately left open. In real life there's
no such thing as immortality, which is why I'm beginning to find these
hair-splitting metaphysical arguments faintly ridiculous.
As you mentioned, there are plenty of people who are not uncomfortable
with oblivion. Perhaps this, not the promise of god-like rebirth in
Heaven, is the source of Aragorn's strength.
-Ber
wrob
> True, mortals in Middle-earth began looking on mortality as a curse.
> But surely when they entered Mandos (the place) they would realize
> it was in fact a blessing.
Why, what's so great about Mandos?
And why is it that the Doom of Mandos has seemingly been extended to
all Elves who choose to remain in M-E? Why should a Peredhil not be
able to choose immortality and remain in Middle-Earth? It's all a
rather silly and deterministic theology.
-Ber
wrob
> On 29 Aug 2003 14:09:17 GMT, Russ <mcr...@aol.comnojunk> alleged...
> > In Tolkien's universe, Mortality was the *Gift* of Eru. It was
> > intended at a better fate than immortality within Arda. It was Melkor who
> > twisted Man's perception of death into something other than it was.
>
> This also roughly parallels the idea that death can be a gift to a
> suitably pious Christian, getting to spend their time in Heaven as they
> do. It is only those too corrupted (by Melkor/Satan) that should have a
> reason to fear death.
Of course, in reality there are no guarantees, even if you are Christian.
wrob
> That's still forgetting that mortality if the GIFT of Eru. It's a good thing.
> Leaving the bounds of Arda, indeed, Ea, is a good thing.
Are you extrapolating from RL?
teepee
"Morgil" <more...@hotmail.com>
> Where does it say that? As far as I know, we are never
> told why Feanor remains in Mandos. Maybe he prefers
> to stay with his mother and father?
Presumably if he could leave voluntarily, he'd still have to go pursue
his oath. At the very least he'd have to get Earendil's Silmaril back.
Reason enough to keep him locked up.
Conrad Dunkerson
> Why unjust? I think there is a big misconception here since we are of course,
> Mortal Men.
The idea is that Elwing got a choice but her father and brothers did
not. If that were the case then the injustice seems obvious. If a
peredhil is more suited/drawn to life as an Elf (as seems clearly the
case with Dior) would it not be inherently unjust to force them to be
mortal against their will while allowing other peredhil to choose?
Would it not be unjust (even sacreligious) to separate Dior from his
wife for all eternity while allowing every single other peredhil to
remain with theirs... and even changing the fates of one mortal and
one immortal so that THEY could remain with their spouses?
> In Tolkien's universe, Mortality was the *Gift* of Eru.
Not the >only< '*Gift*'.
Mortality was the gift of Eru >to MEN<... just as immortality was the
gift of Eru to ELVES.
> It was intended at a better fate than immortality within Arda.
Better? I agree that it was different, but not that it was
necessarily better. Many of the elves might come to envy it over the
long wait for the uncertainty of their own post-Arda existence, but
there is no indication that the Elves wouldn't be given something
equally 'good'.
Conrad Dunkerson
> What evidence do you have that Dior's fea did not go directly to Mandos? The
> only examples I can think of off the top of my head of delays are 'evildoers'
> such as Ar-Pharazon and his crew and the Dead Men of Dunharrow.
> My impression is that a disembodied mortal fea's stay in Arda is quite short.
This assumes that Dior's fea was mortal... which is also the point
that it is being used as evidence of. Circular reasoning.
Indeed, the ambiguity of Dior's status could have delayed his 'call to
the West' or caused him to resist it. If Mandos was summoning him to
leave the world while Dior considered himself an Elf and part of Arda
for all time he might naturally have refused the summons for a time as
Tolkien indicated other Elves did.
> Why? Mortality was the *Gift* of Eru. In Tolkien's universe that was a "Good
> Thing"
See my other post... mortality was the gift of Eru to Men.
Immortality was the gift to Elves. The two gifts were mutually
exclusive and the peredhil would in theory receive both. Hence 'the
choice'.
> Earendil and Elwing were given special dispensation because of their
> sacrafices - although I'm not really sure how their sacrafices were any
> greater than other people, but be that as it may.
And their descendants?
Earendil and Elwing's sacrifices and great deed played a part in the
arguments over what their fates should be, but they did not get
'special dispensation'... all the peredhil got the same treatment.
EXCEPT perhaps for Dior and his sons.
> No, the incongruity was not their being separated but Finwe remarrying.
That was a secondary issue. The first problem was Miriel's refusal to
be re-embodied. Indeed, the Valar agreed that Finwe should be allowed
to remarry, despite the oddity of it, BECAUSE Miriel was seemingly
cutting herself off from him for all eternity. Temporary separation
was one thing, but eternal separation was something that the Elves had
never encountered before.
Conrad Dunkerson
> Does Mandos (the Vala) "shuffle off" the spirits of Men, or do they
> leave because that is in their nature?
Well, we know that Beren's fea stayed around in the Halls of Mandos
for a while. Whether he would have eventually 'left on his own' or
been 'lead out' by Namo isn't clearly defined. However, the fact that
they go to Mandos at all suggests to me that he has something to do
with their departure. I'd think they might need Mandos to 'open the
door' when they were ready to go.
> "Chance for appeal"? Mortality was a _gift_, not a punishment.
As was immortality.
Colin Davies
> In article <3f4d4c98$0$46016$65c6...@mercury.nildram.net> in
> rec.arts.books.tolkien, teepee <noe...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Raises the question - was Elros an
> >immortal who became mortal or a mortal who stayed mortal. And how would
> >you tell the difference? Is there a difference?
>
> He was neither -- he was a half-breed who was given by Eru (via the
> Valar) the choice of which kindred he wanted to belong to.
>
But what if he had been killed as a child. Would he have gone to Mandos?
Colin
Russ
No, from Tolkien.
Russ
Russ
conrad.d...@worldnet.att.net (Conrad Dunkerson) writes:
>mcr...@aol.comnojunk (Russ) wrote in message
>news:<20030829100917...@mb-m13.aol.com>...
>
>> Why unjust? I think there is a big misconception here since we are of
>course,
>> Mortal Men.
>
>The idea is that Elwing got a choice but her father and brothers did
>not. If that were the case then the injustice seems obvious.
No, according to the story Earendil and Elwing were given the choice because of
the great risk and sacrifice they made. It's debateable whether in fact their
risk and sacrifice was greater than any other of the time but that was the
reasoning behind it.
> If a
>peredhil is more suited/drawn to life as an Elf (as seems clearly the
>case with Dior) would it not be inherently unjust to force them to be
>mortal against their will while allowing other peredhil to choose?
Your assuming it was against his will.
>Would it not be unjust (even sacreligious) to separate Dior from his
>wife for all eternity while allowing every single other peredhil to
>remain with theirs... and even changing the fates of one mortal and
>one immortal so that THEY could remain with their spouses?
>
>> In Tolkien's universe, Mortality was the *Gift* of Eru.
>
>Not the >only< '*Gift*'.
>
>Mortality was the gift of Eru >to MEN<... just as immortality was the
>gift of Eru to ELVES.
Please cite where there was a "Gift of Elves" or any text implying the equality
of their fate.
AFAIK there was not, only a Gift of Men.
>> It was intended at a better fate than immortality within Arda.
>
>Better? I agree that it was different, but not that it was
>necessarily better. Many of the elves might come to envy it over the
>long wait for the uncertainty of their own post-Arda existence, but
>there is no indication that the Elves wouldn't be given something
>equally 'good'.
I disagree. Over and over again, the Gift of Men, or the Gift of Eru, is
painted as the better fate. Mortal Men leave the bounds of the cirles of the
world.
Russ
Russ
conrad.d...@worldnet.att.net (Conrad Dunkerson) writes:
>mcr...@aol.comnojunk (Russ) wrote in message
>news:<20030829100917...@mb-m13.aol.com>...
>
>> What evidence do you have that Dior's fea did not go directly to Mandos?
>The
>> only examples I can think of off the top of my head of delays are
>'evildoers'
>> such as Ar-Pharazon and his crew and the Dead Men of Dunharrow.
>
>> My impression is that a disembodied mortal fea's stay in Arda is quite
>short.
>
>This assumes that Dior's fea was mortal... which is also the point
>that it is being used as evidence of. Circular reasoning.
No, it's not circular: because Mandos would already have encountered Dior's fea
(and that of those of the twins for that matter) and would therefore have known
its fate when the council met to consider the fate of Earendil and Elwing.
Mandos went into that council thinking their fear were mortal, not immortal.
And he had the example of Dior to guide him.
>Indeed, the ambiguity of Dior's status could have delayed his 'call to
>the West' or caused him to resist it.
Where is it said that a mortal fea could delay being called to the West? It is
said that an immmortal fea could but nowhere is it said a mortal one could. In
fact, if memory serves I think they cannot. (My Tolkien books were boxed up
during my absence and I haven't yet dug them out so my citing ability is
limited for now)
> If Mandos was summoning him to
>leave the world while Dior considered himself an Elf and part of Arda
>for all time he might naturally have refused the summons for a time as
>Tolkien indicated other Elves did.
Key word: Elves. Elves could resist the summons, Men could not. If Dior could
resist the summons then he was, a fortiori, an elf, and thus Mandos could not
have gone into the council assuming Earendil and Elwing were mortal.
>> Why? Mortality was the *Gift* of Eru. In Tolkien's universe that was a
>"Good
>> Thing"
>
>See my other post... mortality was the gift of Eru to Men.
>Immortality was the gift to Elves.
I know of no textual support for that notion. Over and over again Man's fate
is termsed a "Gift" (note the initial caps). Elvish immortality within Arda is
nowhere presented as such.
> The two gifts were mutually
>exclusive and the peredhil would in theory receive both. Hence 'the
>choice'.
>
>> Earendil and Elwing were given special dispensation because of their
>> sacrafices - although I'm not really sure how their sacrafices were any
>> greater than other people, but be that as it may.
>
>And their descendants?
>
>Earendil and Elwing's sacrifices and great deed played a part in the
>arguments over what their fates should be, but they did not get
>'special dispensation'... all the peredhil got the same treatment.
>EXCEPT perhaps for Dior and his sons.
Not all the Peredhil. Not the descendants of Imrazor and Mithrellas and any
number of other fruit of unnamed Avari-Edain unions.
>> No, the incongruity was not their being separated but Finwe remarrying.
>
>That was a secondary issue.
I disagree. Miriel's decision certainly set the chain of events in motion but
it was not the key event. Had Finwe remained a 'widower' there would be no
incongruity. The incongruity only began when Finwe remarried.
> The first problem was Miriel's refusal to
>be re-embodied. Indeed, the Valar agreed that Finwe should be allowed
>to remarry, despite the oddity of it, BECAUSE Miriel was seemingly
>cutting herself off from him for all eternity. Temporary separation
>was one thing, but eternal separation was something that the Elves had
>never encountered before.
Permanent separation was in the job description for that line.
Russ
Graham Lockwood
> conrad.d...@worldnet.att.net (Conrad Dunkerson) writes:
{snip}
>> Indeed, the ambiguity of Dior's status could have delayed his 'call to
>> the West' or caused him to resist it.
>
> Where is it said that a mortal fea could delay being called to the West? It
> is
> said that an immmortal fea could but nowhere is it said a mortal one could.
> In
> fact, if memory serves I think they cannot. (My Tolkien books were boxed up
> during my absence and I haven't yet dug them out so my citing ability is
> limited for now)
The fear of the Dead Men of Dunharrow lingered in ME for thousands of years
after they died. The Barrow-wights were likely the fear of men who had died
but who had remained behind.
>> If Mandos was summoning him to
>> leave the world while Dior considered himself an Elf and part of Arda
>> for all time he might naturally have refused the summons for a time as
>> Tolkien indicated other Elves did.
>
> Key word: Elves. Elves could resist the summons, Men could not. If Dior could
> resist the summons then he was, a fortiori, an elf, and thus Mandos could not
> have gone into the council assuming Earendil and Elwing were mortal.
{snip}
See my comments above.
||// // "The narrative ends here. || //
|// // There is no reason to think ||//
(/ // that any more was ever written. |//
||// The manuscript, which becomes //
|// increasingly rapid towards the end, //|
(/ peters out in a scrawl." //||
|| -Christopher Tolkien, _The Lost Road_ // ||
Graham Lockwood
Hmm, interesting point. Going from this, wouldn't all of his sons have to
remain in Mandos for the rest of Time as well?
Russ
Graham Lockwood <GondhirAtC*H*O*K*L*I*TDo...@IgnoreThis.AndThis> writes:
>Russ said:
>> conrad.d...@worldnet.att.net (Conrad Dunkerson) writes:
>{snip}
>>> Indeed, the ambiguity of Dior's status could have delayed his 'call to
>>> the West' or caused him to resist it.
>>
>> Where is it said that a mortal fea could delay being called to the West?
>It
>> is
>> said that an immmortal fea could but nowhere is it said a mortal one could.
>> In
>> fact, if memory serves I think they cannot. (My Tolkien books were boxed
>up
>> during my absence and I haven't yet dug them out so my citing ability is
>> limited for now)
>
>The fear of the Dead Men of Dunharrow lingered in ME for thousands of years
>after they died.
This issue was covered before. The issues are different. The fear of the Dead
Men are being held back against their will as a result of their disobediance.
We have no instance of a mortal fea volutarily refusing to go to Mandos and
beyond.
>The Barrow-wights were likely the fear of men who had died
>but who had remained behind.
First, not voluntarily. Second, I vaguely recall they were elvish fear.
>>> If Mandos was summoning him to
>>> leave the world while Dior considered himself an Elf and part of Arda
>>> for all time he might naturally have refused the summons for a time as
>>> Tolkien indicated other Elves did.
>>
>> Key word: Elves. Elves could resist the summons, Men could not. If Dior
>could
>> resist the summons then he was, a fortiori, an elf, and thus Mandos could
>not
>> have gone into the council assuming Earendil and Elwing were mortal.
>{snip}
>
>See my comments above.
Again, resisting a call to Mandos is different than involuntarily being blocked
from Mandos.
Russ
Matthew Bladen
news:20030902095106...@mb-m07.aol.com...
[snip]
> >> It was intended at a better fate than immortality within Arda.
> >
> >Better? I agree that it was different, but not that it was
> >necessarily better. Many of the elves might come to envy it over the
> >long wait for the uncertainty of their own post-Arda existence, but
> >there is no indication that the Elves wouldn't be given something
> >equally 'good'.
>
> I disagree. Over and over again, the Gift of Men, or the Gift of Eru, is
> painted as the better fate. Mortal Men leave the bounds of the cirles of
the
> world.
"Death is their fate, the gift of Iluvatar, which as time wears even the
Powers
shall envy." (The Silmarillion, Chapter One)
The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen in LOTR Appendix A, and the Athrabeth
in HOME 10, also seem to me to clearly favour the Gift of Men over the
fate of the Elves - possibly even the Ainur. Certainly the Valar and Maiar
are presented as being bound within the physical world in a way that
reminds one of the Elves, and makes one wonder whether they will
continue to exist after the Dagor Dagorath and the destruction of Arda
Marred.
--
Matthew
Graham Lockwood
> Graham Lockwood <GondhirAtC*H*O*K*L*I*TDo...@IgnoreThis.AndThis> writes:
>> Russ said:
>>> conrad.d...@worldnet.att.net (Conrad Dunkerson) writes:
>> {snip}
>>>> Indeed, the ambiguity of Dior's status could have delayed his 'call to
>>>> the West' or caused him to resist it.
>>> Where is it said that a mortal fea could delay being called to the West?
>> The fear of the Dead Men of Dunharrow lingered in ME for thousands of years
>> after they died.
>
> This issue was covered before. The issues are different. The fear of the
> Dead
> Men are being held back against their will as a result of their disobediance.
> We have no instance of a mortal fea volutarily refusing to go to Mandos and
> beyond.
That's true, but I think it does show that mortal fear remaining behind in
Arda is not unheard of. Moreover, the DMoD remained behind because of a
curse placed on them by another mortal. So yes, they were "forced" to stay
behind, but by another mortal. If one mortal can cause another mortal's fea
to remain in Arda, I don't see why it would be impossible for a mortal to
keep its own fea in Arda.
AC
I doubt very much that Isildur had the power or authority to do such a
thing. I'm fairly certain that Eru's hand was in this particular instance.
You are right, of course, that a mortal's spirit can be constrained to stay
in Arda. One only need to look at the Nazgul to see that. I tend to think
that in both cases, the departure was delayed.
--
Aaron Clausen
Morgil
"Graham Lockwood" <GondhirAtC*H*O*K*L*I*TDo...@IgnoreThis.AndThis>
kirjoitti
viestissä:BB7A68F1.C84C%GondhirAtC*H*O*K*L*I*TDo...@IgnoreThis.AndThis...
> Russ said:
> > Graham Lockwood <GondhirAtC*H*O*K*L*I*TDo...@IgnoreThis.AndThis>
writes:
> >> Russ said:
> >>> Where is it said that a mortal fea could delay being called to the
West?
> {snip}
> That's true, but I think it does show that mortal fear remaining behind in
> Arda is not unheard of. Moreover, the DMoD remained behind because of a
> curse placed on them by another mortal. So yes, they were "forced" to stay
> behind, but by another mortal. If one mortal can cause another mortal's
fea
> to remain in Arda, I don't see why it would be impossible for a mortal to
> keep its own fea in Arda.
How about Gorlim's fea hanging around long enough
to warn Beren about his betrayal? Would that count?
Morgil
Graham Lockwood
{snip}
>>>> Russ said:
>>>>> Where is it said that a mortal fea could delay being called to the
> West?
{snip}
>
> to warn Beren about his betrayal? Would that count?
Another good example.
Graham Lockwood
> On Tue, 02 Sep 2003 15:34:10 -0700,
> Graham Lockwood <GondhirAtC*H*O*K*L*I*TDo...@IgnoreThis.AndThis> wrote:
{snip}
>>>> The fear of the Dead Men of Dunharrow lingered in ME for thousands of years
>>>> after they died.
>>I think it does show that mortal fear remaining behind in
>> Arda is not unheard of. Moreover, the DMoD remained behind because of a
>> curse placed on them by another mortal. So yes, they were "forced" to stay
>> behind, but by another mortal. If one mortal can cause another mortal's fea
>> to remain in Arda, I don't see why it would be impossible for a mortal to
>> keep its own fea in Arda.
>
> I doubt very much that Isildur had the power or authority to do such a
> thing. I'm fairly certain that Eru's hand was in this particular instance.
They swore an oath.
The broke the oath.
They were cursed.
Their fear didn't depart Arda for thousands of years.
Whether they remained because of the oath or because of the curse or because
Eru *enforced* the oath or curse is beside the point. Even *if* Eru was the
enforcing power behind the oath/curse, it still doesn't negate the point
that they remained because of the oath/curse. Do you really think that Eru
would have kept them behind without the oath/curse?
And AFAIK, Eru is never specifically stated to have had a hand in it. You
can't say, "We know the DMoD didn't stay behind on their own because Eru did
it. And we know Eru had to do it because mortal fear can't stay behind on
their own." That's circular logic. And besides, if you're going to be
invoking Eru like that, then he can equally be invoked in Dior's case.
> You are right, of course, that a mortal's spirit can be constrained to stay
> in Arda. One only need to look at the Nazgul to see that. I tend to think
> that in both cases, the departure was delayed.
Oh, I don't doubt that. But no one's saying that Dior's fea remained in ME
indefinitely, only that it may have done so long enough not to have gummed
up the Valar's decision on what to do about Earendil and Elwing.
Jamie Andrews; real address @ bottom of message
> teepee said:
>> Presumably if [Feanor] could leave voluntarily, he'd still have to go pursue
>> his oath. At the very least he'd have to get Earendil's Silmaril back.
> remain in Mandos for the rest of Time as well?
Re-reading the part of Silm about the Oath, I don't think this
is necessarily the case. Feanor & sons call the "Everlasting Dark"
(whatever that is) upon them if they don't keep the oath, and vow
to pursue "to the ends of the World" any Vala, Demon, etc. etc.,
"unto the end of days".
Nothing is mentioned about whether the Oath extends beyond
death and Mandos. However, given that the Valar seemed willing
to revoke the later Doom of Mandos for Galadriel, I have a
feeling that neither Eru nor the Valar would hold Feanor to his
Oath past death. I assume that it would take a long time for
his fea to accept that he was never going to fulfill the Oath,
but I think the most consistent thing in Tolkien's world would
be for Feanor eventually to repent and for the Valar to issue
some kind of diktat saying that the Oath and the Doom was now
null and void.
--Jamie. (nel mezzo del cammin di nostra vita)
andrews .uwo } Merge these two lines to obtain my e-mail address.
@csd .ca } (Unsolicited "bulk" e-mail costs everyone.)