cirdan,galadriel,elrond, celeborn
kella
Marcus E. Walton <udu0...@isc.sjsu.edu> wrote:
But the person I never could gauge is Celeborn. He has been around
probably as long as Cirdan, but he never showed any leadership or
power. Any reasons why? >
Galadriel wore the pants in the family? =) There was an interesting
thread on this subject a while ago. Galadriel's titles were bing read
aloud, "Queen of this, leader of that (My memory is fuzzy, please
forgive) blah blah, and, oh yeah, wife of Celeborn."
regards,
kella
Damion 888
writes:
>Galadriel wore the pants in the family? =) There was an interesting
>thread on this subject a while ago. Galadriel's titles were bing read
>aloud, "Queen of this, leader of that (My memory is fuzzy, please
>forgive) blah blah, and, oh yeah, wife of Celeborn."
Remember she had one of the three rings. She had special powers.
Possibly she didn't wear the pants, though I'm sure she was able, it's
just that due to her special power and importance, she's given much more
press. This is a "bad" analogy, but you'll get the point. A very good
man, great husband, great father, marries Madonna. Who will you hear
about? Sorry Galadriel ;)
Brian E. Clark
> But the person I never could gauge is Celeborn. He has been around
> probably as long as Cirdan, but he never showed any leadership or
> power. Any reasons why?
Tolkien described him as being very wise, and Celeborn showed his
wisdom by keeping a low profile. So, while Celeborn could stroll freely
throughout the lands, Galadriel found herself constantly ducking
autograph seekers and two-bit paparazzi lurking behind Mellyrn trees
with sketch pads.
When she'd come home, tired and irritable, Celeborn would answer, "Hey,
Lady of the thousand cool titles, didn't I warn you that would happen?"
You see, although he was wise, Celeborn had never outgrown the
I-told-you-so's. If Galadriel felt vindictive, she'd drag Celeborn to
her Mirror and force him to watch images of himself in which he had
become completely bald. It wasn't a perfect marriage, but which one is?
-brian
--
The palest ink is better than the most retentive memory.
- Chinese proverb
@#$%!?!
: become completely bald. It wasn't a perfect marriage, but which one is?
I would also point out the Lay of Gimli, one of the last works
of B Baggins before shuffling on. A comic masterpiece, it
describes Gimli sneaking out of Galadriel's house in Eldamar,
dressed as Maia of Aule, the day Celeborn's ship finally showed
up on the Last Shore.
--
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az...@imap1.asu.edu
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Subject: Re: cirdan,galadriel,elrond, celeborn
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kella (beav...@csulb.edu) wrote:
: In article <4bd8b7$h...@nuke.csu.net>,
: Marcus E. Walton <udu0...@isc.sjsu.edu> wrote:
: But the person I never could gauge is Celeborn. He has been around
: probably as long as Cirdan, but he never showed any leadership or
: power. Any reasons why? >
: Galadriel wore the pants in the family? =) There was an interesting
: thread on this subject a while ago. Galadriel's titles were bing read
: aloud, "Queen of this, leader of that (My memory is fuzzy, please
: forgive) blah blah, and, oh yeah, wife of Celeborn."
My own opinion is that Celeborn's importance lies in the need to forge
an alliance between the Noldor and the various Telerin branches. The
Sindar, etc., might not have accepted Galadriel alone as a leader, since
she was a Noldorin princess and thereby "associated" with kin-slayers.
But with Celeborn, who was close kin to Thingol, a mixed realm would be
easier to form.
This type of joint leadership was also used at the Grey Havens, where
Gil-galad ruled and was advised by Cirdan. Elrond was of sufficiently
mixed decent that he could reasonably be associated with both Noldor
and Sindar. Although, it would probably be fair to say that Rivendell
was a predominantly Noldorin dwelling, since we know of two Noldorin
lords who lived there (Glorfindel and Gildor), and because the refugees
of Hollin (a Noldorin realm) escaped to Rivendell.
--
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
"The road goes ever on and on."
- Bilbo Baggins, as quoted in _The C++ Programming Language._
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
8^)
Kevin L. Lord
>
>This type of joint leadership was also used at the Grey Havens, where
>Gil-galad ruled and was advised by Cirdan. Elrond was of sufficiently
>mixed decent that he could reasonably be associated with both Noldor
>and Sindar. Although, it would probably be fair to say that Rivendell
>was a predominantly Noldorin dwelling, since we know of two Noldorin
>lords who lived there (Glorfindel and Gildor), and because the refugees
>of Hollin (a Noldorin realm) escaped to Rivendell.
>
>--
>+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
>"The road goes ever on and on."
> - Bilbo Baggins, as quoted in _The C++ Programming Language._
>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>8^)
I find that I must dispute your saying that Rivendell was a
predominantly Noldorin dwelling. The only dwellers in Rivendell
that we know for sure have Noldorin lineage are Glorfindel, Gildor,
Elrond (and his children), and the Dunedain descendants of Elros.
While it might be argued that there is a lot of significance to be
placed in the fact that Noldorin lords are living at Rivendell, I
think that we must remember that it is stated often enough
throughout the Silmarillion, UT (and, less often, in LotR itself)
that most of the Noldor left ME at the end of the First Age. Those
who remained lived in Eregion and Lindon. After the Second Age, it
is said (I would have to dig up the references, but I can if
necessary) that the great majority of the surviving Noldor left
Middle-Earth and returned to Valinor.
It has always been my understanding, from what I could glean from
the texts, that Rivendell, while having the greatest concentration
of Noldor of any haven, was still primarily composed of Sinda
elves.
Kevin Lord :)
az...@imap1.asu.edu
: I find that I must dispute your saying that Rivendell was a
: predominantly Noldorin dwelling. The only dwellers in Rivendell
: that we know for sure have Noldorin lineage are Glorfindel, Gildor,
: Elrond (and his children), and the Dunedain descendants of Elros.
: While it might be argued that there is a lot of significance to be
: placed in the fact that Noldorin lords are living at Rivendell, I
: think that we must remember that it is stated often enough
: throughout the Silmarillion, UT (and, less often, in LotR itself)
: that most of the Noldor left ME at the end of the First Age. Those
: who remained lived in Eregion and Lindon. After the Second Age, it
: is said (I would have to dig up the references, but I can if
: necessary) that the great majority of the surviving Noldor left
: Middle-Earth and returned to Valinor.
: It has always been my understanding, from what I could glean from
: the texts, that Rivendell, while having the greatest concentration
: of Noldor of any haven, was still primarily composed of Sinda
: elves.
Yeah, I figured I might be going out on a limb, since the Noldorin
realms were usually mixed with both Noldorin and Sindarin elves. But
I also would suspect that the Sindar departed at approximately the same
rate as the Noldor.
Michael Martinez
kl...@netcom.com (Kevin L. Lord) wrote:
>I find that I must dispute your saying that Rivendell was a
>predominantly Noldorin dwelling. The only dwellers in Rivendell
>that we know for sure have Noldorin lineage are Glorfindel, Gildor,
>Elrond (and his children), and the Dunedain descendants of Elros.
Elrond led the survivors of predominantly Noldorin Eregion north to found
Imladris in the Second Age. Although there were Sindar in Eregion and Eriador
at the time, it seems apparent that most of the founders of Rivendell were
Noldor.
>Those who remained lived in Eregion and Lindon. After the Second Age, it
>is said (I would have to dig up the references, but I can if
>necessary) that the great majority of the surviving Noldor left
>Middle-Earth and returned to Valinor.
Please find it, as the only passage I know of concerning "most of the Noldor"
or High Elves leaving Middle-earth deals with those who left at the end of the
Third Age.
>It has always been my understanding, from what I could glean from
>the texts, that Rivendell, while having the greatest concentration
>of Noldor of any haven, was still primarily composed of Sinda
>elves.
The greatest concentration of Noldor in the Third Age was probably in Lindon
around Mithlond. Rivendell (and nearby lands) probably came next. Then
Lorien (where many Noldor went in the Second Age).
--
++ ++ "Well Samwise: What do you think of the elves now?"
||\ /|| --fbag...@mid.earth.com
|| v ||ichael Martinez (mma...@basis.com)
++ ++------------------------------------------------------
Michael Martinez
>Yeah, I figured I might be going out on a limb, since the Noldorin
>realms were usually mixed with both Noldorin and Sindarin elves. But
>I also would suspect that the Sindar departed at approximately the same
>rate as the Noldor.
Many Sindar left Middle-earth at the end of the First Age, but Tolkien does
not write that *most* did.
It appears that most of the Sindar who passed eastward settled in Eriador.
Some of them settled in Eregion, but Eregion was primarily a Noldorin realm,
and the survivors of Eregion during the War of the Elves and Sauron went in
two directions: north to found Imladris and east to settle in Lorinand
(Lorien).
There were still plenty of Noldor and Sindar living beyond the Baranduin in
the Second Age until Sauron invaded Eriador. Then they were pushed back
beyond the Lune.
Kevin L. Lord
>: the texts, that Rivendell, while having the greatest concentration
>: of Noldor of any haven, was still primarily composed of Sinda
>: elves.
>
>realms were usually mixed with both Noldorin and Sindarin elves. But
>I also would suspect that the Sindar departed at approximately the same
>rate as the Noldor.
>
>+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
>"The road goes ever on and on."
> - Bilbo Baggins, as quoted in _The C++ Programming Language._
>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>8^)
I donnu, bro. This isn't based on any of the book text that I can
recall, but I would -think- that that would not be the case. The
reason being that the Noldor -knew- what they were missing. The
Sinda knew nothing of Valinor.
I can't prove my theory, of course, so it's open to debate. :) But
do remember that there were far more Sinda than Noldo according to
the Silmarillion. So they prolly still outnumber the Noldorin by a
great deal wherever they go. (Considering how many of the Noldor
just up and bit the dust during the first age. :)
Kevin :)
az...@imap1.asu.edu
: I donnu, bro. This isn't based on any of the book text that I can
: recall, but I would -think- that that would not be the case. The
: reason being that the Noldor -knew- what they were missing. The
: Sinda knew nothing of Valinor.
Well, the Sindar were greatly aware of Valinor, since Melian had
been there. Tolkien wrote that Thingol stayed with Melian because
he could see the light of Aman in her eyes, which he also had seen.
The relatively high culture of Doriath was one of the results of this
knowledge. In addition, the Sindar mingled with the Noldorin realms
of Hithlum and Gondolin, so they had access to the Noldorin memories
of Valinor. And Doriath's culture was one of the reasons why the
Sindar mingled so prolifically.
The Sindar also had ample motive to go to Valinor, since many of
their Telerin kinsmen resided there. The Sindar also shared equally
in the catastrophes of the First Age - perhaps even more, since they
were twice the victims of the Kinslaying. So they may have grown
weary of Middle-earth just as quickly. The only difference might be
that some of the Noldor would conceivably have had residences (houses)
in Valinor. For instance, Galadriel querried why she should live on
an isle in the sea when Aman was her native land.
Michael Richard SIMINSKI
>In article <klordDK...@netcom.com>,
> kl...@netcom.com (Kevin L. Lord) wrote:
>>I find that I must dispute your saying that Rivendell was a
>>predominantly Noldorin dwelling. The only dwellers in Rivendell
>>that we know for sure have Noldorin lineage are Glorfindel, Gildor,
>>Elrond (and his children), and the Dunedain descendants of Elros.
>Elrond led the survivors of predominantly Noldorin Eregion north to found
>Imladris in the Second Age. Although there were Sindar in Eregion and Eriador
>at the time, it seems apparent that most of the founders of Rivendell were
>Noldor.
(SNIP)
Don't forget that they sang Noldorin songs all the time in Rivendell. See the
chapter "Many Meetings", where Bilbo says "they will sing that (ie the song
about Elbereth) and many other songs about the Blessed Realm many times
tonight". Excuse the quote as I don't have LoTR on me right now.
+-------------------------------------+--------------------------------------+
| MICHAEL SIMINSKI | "We may sail West, as far |
| rm...@wumpus.cc.uow.edu.au | as we will, yet come no |
| Dept of Mechanical Engineering | nearer to our dreams. |
| University of Wollongong | For these are far away, |
| New South Wales | and that is why they are |
| Australia | so beautiful." |
+-------------------------------------+--------------------------------------+
Michael Martinez
mma...@basis.com (Michael Martinez) wrote:
>In article <klordDK...@netcom.com>,
> kl...@netcom.com (Kevin L. Lord) wrote:
>>is said (I would have to dig up the references, but I can if
>>necessary) that the great majority of the surviving Noldor left
>>Middle-Earth and returned to Valinor.
>
>Please find it, as the only passage I know of concerning "most of the Noldor"
>the Third Age.
Well, the above was not what I was thinking when I wrote that.
It's said in several places that "most of the High Elves and many Sindar"
sailed over Sea at the end of the First Age. I was thinking in terms of
*after* that migration. As far as I know, the only other time something like
that happened (or was stated to happen) was at the end of the Third Age. The
High Elves fled Middle-earth like it was sinking.
Michael Martinez
rm...@wumpus.cc.uow.edu.au (Michael Richard SIMINSKI) wrote:
>Don't forget that they sang Noldorin songs all the time in Rivendell. See the
>chapter "Many Meetings", where Bilbo says "they will sing that (ie the song
>about Elbereth) and many other songs about the Blessed Realm many times
>tonight". Excuse the quote as I don't have LoTR on me right now.
Sure. I'll just file that away for future reference.
Thanks.
Hauke Moeller
>The greatest concentration of Noldor in the Third Age was probably in Lindon
>around Mithlond. Rivendell (and nearby lands) probably came next. Then
>Lorien (where many Noldor went in the Second Age).
Here's a [translation of a translation of a] quote from the
Silmarillion, concerning the Noldor's population in Eriador
in the Third Age:
"In Eriador, Imladris was the main seat of High Elves, but
also at the Grey Havens of Lindon there lived remainders of
the people of Gil-Galad, the Elven King".
You will find the original when you look up the last entry
for "Gil-Galad" in your Silmarillion's register.
So Rivendell comes before Lindon.
Hauke
Michael Martinez
h...@idril.shnet.org (Hauke Moeller) wrote:
>"In Eriador, Imladris was the main seat of High Elves, but
>also at the Grey Havens of Lindon there lived remainders of
>the people of Gil-Galad, the Elven King".
>
>You will find the original when you look up the last entry
>for "Gil-Galad" in your Silmarillion's register.
>
>So Rivendell comes before Lindon.
In Eriador, Rivendell was the chief home of the Noldor. Lindon was not in
Eriador.
However, as I don't have my books with me, I can't offer any appropriate
citations. I do recall discussing this point with someone only a couple of
months ago. I'm not sure of what the outcome was.