Swords of Feanor
teepee
make it to the Third Age? Are Glamdring and Anduril of that ilk, or
merely lesser weapons.
Jens Kilian
Glamdring, Orcrist and Sting were made in Gondolin, post-Feanor.
IIRC, the only statement about the provenance of Narsil/Anduril is Aragorn's
claim that it was made by Telchar (a dwarf of Nogrod).
--
mailto:j...@acm.org phone:+49-7031-464-7698 (TELNET 778-7698)
http://www.bawue.de/~jjk/ fax:+49-7031-464-7351
As the air to a bird, or the sea to a fish,
so is contempt to the contemptible. [Blake]
Graham Lockwood
Glamdring was the sword of Turgon and was forged in Gondolin "for the Goblin
wars". Anduril was originaly Narsil and was forged by the Dwarf Telchar.
Whether this makes them somehow "lesser" than a sword of Feanor is anyone's
guess but I doubt it.
I don't think we ever learn what happened to any of Feanor's swords but I
don't think any of them made it into the Third Age except, perhaps, as
Bad-Guy-Loot like Glamdring, Orcrist, and Sting were. They just happened to
be recovered by Thorin & Co.
All the First Age artifacts surviving into the Third Age that I know of
(with the exception of the Troll Hoard) were held by the heirs of the
original First Age owners and Feanor doesn't seem to have had any heirs left
by that time. The Feanorians didn't do too well in the long run...
||// // "The narrative ends here. || //
|// // There is no reason to think ||//
(/ // that any more was ever written. |//
||// The manuscript, which becomes //
|// increasingly rapid towards the end, //|
(/ peters out in a scrawl." //||
|| -Christopher Tolkien, _The Lost Road_ // ||
Morgil
"Graham Lockwood" <GondhirAtC*H*O*K*L*I*TDo...@IgnoreThis.AndThis>
kirjoitti
viestissä:BB3C019A.9F3D%GondhirAtC*H*O*K*L*I*TDo...@IgnoreThis.AndThis...
> I don't think we ever learn what happened to any of Feanor's swords but I
> don't think any of them made it into the Third Age except, perhaps, as
> Bad-Guy-Loot like Glamdring, Orcrist, and Sting were. They just happened
to
> be recovered by Thorin & Co.
Feanor made swords for himself and his sons,
and assumingly few spare ones as well. Exept
for Maedhros first being captured and then
jumping in a chasm, and Maglor disappearing,
all of them died in situations where the swords
could have been recovered. So at least five of
them survived through the First Age, and at
least three were lost. If Feanor's sword or some
of the spare ones were given to high ranking
Noldor, they might have been lost in the battles.
What happened to them during Second Age is
anyone's guess. Most of them probably ended
up in a museum somewhere in Undying Lands.
Celebrimbor might have get few, and Maglor
could have given two for Elrond and Elros. It
is not entirely impossible thereby, that Elrond
kept one through the entire Third Age.
Morgil
AR
>
> I don't think we ever learn what happened to any of Feanor's swords but I
> don't think any of them made it into the Third Age except, perhaps, as
> Bad-Guy-Loot like Glamdring, Orcrist, and Sting were. They just happened to
> be recovered by Thorin & Co.
>
> All the First Age artifacts surviving into the Third Age that I know of
> (with the exception of the Troll Hoard) were held by the heirs of the
> original First Age owners and Feanor doesn't seem to have had any heirs left
> by that time. The Feanorians didn't do too well in the long run...
>
escaped the orcs. Those three sons of Feanor were not killed by
Morgoth's armies but by thier own elven kin in Doriath. It is
possible that fugitives of Doriath took the swords with them to the
Mouths of Sirion. From there they would have ended up either over the
sea on Tol Erresea, or the could have remained in Middle Earth in
Imladris, the Grey Havens or in Eregion.
Also, Celebrimbor may have been given a Feanorian sword by his father
Curufin. Of course this wouldn't have saved it from orcs as
Celebrimbor was slain by Sauron's army in Eregion during the second
age.
AR
Yuk Tang
>
> What happened to them during Second Age is
> anyone's guess. Most of them probably ended
> up in a museum somewhere in Undying Lands.
> Celebrimbor might have get few, and Maglor
> could have given two for Elrond and Elros. It
> is not entirely impossible thereby, that Elrond
> kept one through the entire Third Age.
Elros' loot list in BoLT includes Aranruth and Dramborleg, Thingol's sword
and Tuor's axe respectively, but doesn't mention any Feanorian weapons.
Which begs the question, why did Elros get all the good stuff? When they
divided up the swag, what did Elrond get? Dior's codpiece?
Cheers, ymt.
Conrad Dunkerson
> Elros' loot list in BoLT includes Aranruth and Dramborleg
Not to mention the Ring of Barahir. The palantiri and what would
later be called the Sceptre of Annuminas most likely came later.
> When they divided up the swag, what did Elrond get?
Nothing that I can think of. Which might suggest that Elros was the
elder twin OR be part of Elrond's preference for his Sindarin
ancestry. He couldn't very well denounce his Noldorin roots while
carrying around various symbols of Noldorin royalty. Though...
Aranruth was a Sindarin artifact and Dramborleg and the Ring of
Barahir had as much to do with human ancestry as Noldorin. Elros
keeping the heirlooms that had come down from their Human/Noldorin
father makes sense. Aranruth seems out of place unless it was given
to Elros as a symbol of nobility (king's sword for the new king)...
Elrond was apparently not seeking to rule and thus would not need such
a symbol of royal authority.
Yuk Tang
> "Yuk Tang" <jim.l...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:<bf75go$bs57u$1...@ID-134236.news.uni-berlin.de>...
>
>> Elros' loot list in BoLT includes Aranruth and Dramborleg
>
> Not to mention the Ring of Barahir. The palantiri and what would
> later be called the Sceptre of Annuminas most likely came later.
Noteworthy that, by the time of LotR's writing, it's called the Ring of
Barahir, not Felagund. Shows that it was sufficiently valued by the royal
house to want to associate it with their human past, not the Noldor's.
>> When they divided up the swag, what did Elrond get?
>
> Nothing that I can think of. Which might suggest that Elros was the
> elder twin
That's my theory.
> OR be part of Elrond's preference for his Sindarin
> ancestry. He couldn't very well denounce his Noldorin roots while
> carrying around various symbols of Noldorin royalty.
Any evidence of Elrond's preference for his Sindarin side? He served under
Gil-galad, the High King of the Noldor, and set up Imladris as a refuge for
the Eregionite Noldor. While it had links with the havens, by the time of
LotR it's still predominantly Noldorin.
> Though...
> Aranruth was a Sindarin artifact and Dramborleg and the Ring of
> Barahir had as much to do with human ancestry as Noldorin. Elros
> keeping the heirlooms that had come down from their Human/Noldorin
> father makes sense. Aranruth seems out of place unless it was given
> to Elros as a symbol of nobility (king's sword for the new king)...
> Elrond was apparently not seeking to rule and thus would not need such
> a symbol of royal authority.
The rulership side may be more probable; Gil-galad mightn't have wanted
someone to heft around symbols of elven royalty, a reminder of possible
strife (cf the Feanor-Fingolfin split).
Another thing springs to mind: Elrond could have impounded Glamdring in The
Hobbit, a possession that's his by ancestral right. Apart from the fact
that it was being held by someone considerably nastier than him in a fight,
why didn't he? A case of JRRT not yet realising that the King of Gondolin
was related to the sage-meister?
Cheers, ymt.
Tar-Elenion
jim.l...@yahoo.com says...
> Conrad Dunkerson wrote:
> > "Yuk Tang" <jim.l...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:<bf75go$bs57u$1...@ID-134236.news.uni-berlin.de>...
> >
> >> Elros' loot list in BoLT includes Aranruth and Dramborleg
> >
> > Not to mention the Ring of Barahir. The palantiri and what would
> > later be called the Sceptre of Annuminas most likely came later.
>
> Noteworthy that, by the time of LotR's writing, it's called the Ring of
> Barahir, not Felagund. Shows that it was sufficiently valued by the royal
> house to want to associate it with their human past, not the Noldor's.
>
>
> >> When they divided up the swag, what did Elrond get?
> >
> > Nothing that I can think of. Which might suggest that Elros was the
> > elder twin
>
> That's my theory.
>
>
> > OR be part of Elrond's preference for his Sindarin
> > ancestry. He couldn't very well denounce his Noldorin roots while
> > carrying around various symbols of Noldorin royalty.
>
> Any evidence of Elrond's preference for his Sindarin side? He served under
> Gil-galad, the High King of the Noldor, and set up Imladris as a refuge for
> the Eregionite Noldor. While it had links with the havens, by the time of
> LotR it's still predominantly Noldorin.
'Problem of Ros', PoME, states:
"Elrond remained among the Elves and carried on the lineage of King
Elwë."
With a reference to endnote 19 which reads:
"19. And also that of Turgon; though he preferred that of Elwe, who
was not under the ban that was laid on the Exiles."
--
Tar-Elenion
Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice.
Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue.
Conrad Dunkerson
> Another thing springs to mind: Elrond could have impounded Glamdring in The
> Hobbit, a possession that's his by ancestral right. Apart from the fact
> that it was being held by someone considerably nastier than him in a fight,
> why didn't he? A case of JRRT not yet realising that the King of Gondolin
> was related to the sage-meister?
That seems quite likely the 'story external' explanation. Within the
story I'd guess that it could be explained by Elrond's aversion to
that side of his ancestry (see Tar-Elenion's reply) or just that he
felt Gandalf would make better use of it.
Ar Adunakhor2001
>make it to the Third Age? Are Glamdring and Anduril of that ilk, or
>merely lesser weapons.
-Ar adunakhor
Bill O'Meally
"Ar Adunakhor2001" <araduna...@cs.com> wrote in message
news:20030722083502...@mb-m18.news.cs.com...
Anduril was made by Telchar, a Dwarf of Nogrod, in the First Age.
--
Bill
"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
Jamie Andrews; real address @ bottom of message
> "teepee" <noe...@hotmail.com> writes:
> > Did any of the Swords that Feanor made in Aman for himself and his sons
> > make it to the Third Age? Are Glamdring and Anduril of that ilk, or
> > merely lesser weapons.
>
> Glamdring, Orcrist and Sting were made in Gondolin, post-Feanor.
Yep... but it's not clear whether that means they are
"greater" or "lesser" than Feanor's.
On the one hand, Feanor was arguably the greatest craftsman
of the Eldar ever. Also, the Gondolin swords don't display any
special powers other than glowing when baddies appear.
On the other hand, maybe the Gondolin swords were greater
when wielded by their original owners, or by Noldor of Gondolin
generally. Also, we can't tell whether Feanor had any knowledge
of combat when he made the swords in Aman (see below), whereas
the Gondolin swords may have been made by Elves that had fought
at Alqualonde, in the Nirnaeth and possibly in battles with Orcs
before Gondolin was built. So it's not clear whether, even with
all his skill/wisdom/etc., Feanor would have been able to craft
a sword fit for combat that was greater than the Gondolin swords.
I don't remember anything to indicate that any of the Eldar
in Aman had ever faced combat before Feanor crafted his swords.
Perhaps they killed animals with swords in Middle-earth before
coming to Aman. More tenuous is whether they did battle with
Orcs then. I don't remember anything that denies that this
could have happened, but I also don't remember (IDHTBIFOM)
anything saying that it did happen, and it seems like something
that JRRT would have mentioned if it did happen. Even if it did
happen, Feanor couldn't have had first-hand knowledge of it
unless he was born in Middle-earth (as he was, IIRC, in some
versions of the story) and was involved in the battle.
> IIRC, the only statement about the provenance of Narsil/Anduril is Aragorn's
> claim that it was made by Telchar (a dwarf of Nogrod).
Some of the same arguments could be made here... Narsil is
never said to have any special powers at all, but OTOH Telchar
also crafted Angrist, which cut the Silmaril from Morgoth's
crown, and the Dwarves may have faced battle by Telchar's time.
--Jamie. (nel mezzo del cammin di nostra vita)
andrews .uwo } Merge these two lines to obtain my e-mail address.
@csd .ca } (Unsolicited "bulk" e-mail costs everyone.)
coyotes rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
(Jamie Andrews; real address @ bottom of message) wrote:
> Jens Kilian <Jens_...@agilent.com> writes:
> > "teepee" <noe...@hotmail.com> writes:
> > > Did any of the Swords that Feanor made in Aman for himself and his sons
> > > make it to the Third Age? Are Glamdring and Anduril of that ilk, or
> > > merely lesser weapons.
> >
> > Glamdring, Orcrist and Sting were made in Gondolin, post-Feanor.
>
> Yep... but it's not clear whether that means they are
> "greater" or "lesser" than Feanor's.
not even clear how great feanors swords would be
swords are complicated artifacts
and without experience in battlefield conditions
on how various steels and shapes and blades work
how good could they be
Conrad Dunkerson
> On the one hand, Feanor was arguably the greatest craftsman
> of the Eldar ever.
Not much 'arguably' about it... Tolkien stated it flat out on a number
of occasions. Celebrimbor was said to have been the best since
Feanor.
> Also, the Gondolin swords don't display any special powers other than
> glowing when baddies appear.
Glamdring sliced through chains to free the Dwarves and is described
in terms suggesting it almost had a personality (it burned brighter
for joy in having killed the Great Goblin). It also shattered the
Balrog's sword.
> I don't remember anything to indicate that any of the Eldar in Aman had
> ever faced combat before Feanor crafted his swords.
In most texts Feanor is said to be the first of the Elves to have
crafted swords.
> Perhaps they killed animals with swords in Middle-earth before
> coming to Aman. More tenuous is whether they did battle with
> Orcs then.
Not with Orcs in any text I can recall, but there were some versions
in which the Elves were attacked by creatures of Morgoth and thus they
might have developed weapons at that point.
> Even if it did happen, Feanor couldn't have had first-hand knowledge of
> it unless he was born in Middle-earth (as he was, IIRC, in some versions
> of the story)
Actually, I can't think of any versions wherein Feanor was born in
Middle-earth. I think he was always written as being born in Aman.
> Narsil is never said to have any special powers at all
Well, it is constantly 'bursting into flame' and sending off 'showers
of sparks'. Those seem suggestive of SOME sort of 'magical' power to
me.
> but OTOH Telchar also crafted Angrist, which cut the Silmaril from
> Morgoth's crown, and the Dwarves may have faced battle by Telchar's time.
They definitely had... the Dwarves warred with eastern Elves and each
other before they ever met the Noldor.
Tord Kallqvist Romstad
> Actually, I can't think of any versions wherein Feanor was born in
> Middle-earth. I think he was always written as being born in Aman.
IIRC, it is found in "Annals of Aman". Tolkien wrote that Fëanor was
born some time during the journey from Kuivienen to Valinor. The idea
was almost immediately rejected and crossed out.
--
Tord Romstad
Jamie Andrews; real address @ bottom of message
> m...@privacy.net (Jamie Andrews; real address @ bottom of message)
> wrote in message news:<bgukh5$t002u$1...@ID-193590.news.uni-berlin.de>...
>> On the one hand, Feanor was arguably the greatest craftsman
>> of the Eldar ever.
> Not much 'arguably' about it... Tolkien stated it flat out on a number
> of occasions. Celebrimbor was said to have been the best since
> Feanor.
I seem to remember folks arguing about anyway it on this
newsgroup a little while ago. :-)
>> Even if [battle with Orcs before coming to Aman]
>> did happen, Feanor couldn't have had first-hand knowledge of
>> it unless he was born in Middle-earth (as he was, IIRC, in some versions
>> of the story)
> Actually, I can't think of any versions wherein Feanor was born in
> Middle-earth. I think he was always written as being born in Aman.
I have been going through _Morgoth's Ring_, and ISTR that
in at least one of the innumerable variants of the tale of Finwe
and Miriel, Feanor is born in Middle-earth.
>> Narsil is never said to have any special powers at all
> Well, it is constantly 'bursting into flame' and sending off 'showers
> of sparks'. Those seem suggestive of SOME sort of 'magical' power to
> me.
Hmmm... I don't remember any mentions of Narsil/Anduril's
light that suggested magical properties to me. Tolkien often
talks about characters' eyes glowing, but presumably doesn't
literally mean that they are radiating light due to some
endogenous light-production process; it's a metaphor used when
someone has a fixed and penetrating gaze, is obviously
remembering something vividly, etc. My recollection is that
Anduril's light was the same kind of thing; the metal, the light
reflecting on it, the situation, and some quality or emotion of
Aragorn led Tolkien to describe it metaphorically in a similar
way.
But I could be just grotesquely mis-remembering. Can you
give me some quotations?
Marie-Lan Nguyen
<bh101n$tnjli$1...@ID-193590.news.uni-berlin.de> scripsit:
>> Well, it is constantly 'bursting into flame' and sending off
>> 'showers of sparks'. Those seem suggestive of SOME sort of
>> 'magical' power to me.
> Hmmm... I don't remember any mentions of Narsil/Anduril's
> light that suggested magical properties to me.
> But I could be just grotesquely mis-remembering. Can you
> give me some quotations?
Those are a few quotes I could pick up --and there's the name Andúril,
Flame of the West. I really don't know if it's just metaphoric or it
if means Narsil's really magical.
# But even as the orc flung down the truncheon and swept out his
# scimitar, Andúril came down upon his helm. There was a flash like
# flame and the helm burst asunder.
# Aragorn threw back his cloak. The elven-sheath glittered as he
# grasped it, and the bright blade of Andúril shone like a sudden
# flame as he swept it out.
# Charging from the side, they hurled themselves upon the wild
# men. Andúril rose and fell, gleaming with white fire. A shout went
# up from wall and tower: 'Andúril! Andúril goes to war. The Blade
# that was Broken shines again!'
# Three times Aragorn and Éomer rallied them, and three times Andúril
# flamed in a desperate charge that drove the enemy from the wall.
--
Marie-Lan Nguyen
+++ Divide By Cucumber Error. Please Reinstall Universe And Reboot +++
(Terry Pratchett, Hogfather)
<http://www.pip-pip.org/>
Aravorn82
> >> Narsil is never said to have any special powers at all
> > Well, it is constantly 'bursting into flame' and sending off 'showers
> > of sparks'. Those seem suggestive of SOME sort of 'magical' power to
> > me.
>
> Hmmm... I don't remember any mentions of Narsil/Anduril's
> light that suggested magical properties to me. Tolkien often
> talks about characters' eyes glowing, but presumably doesn't
> literally mean that they are radiating light due to some
> endogenous light-production process; it's a metaphor used when
> someone has a fixed and penetrating gaze, is obviously
> remembering something vividly, etc. My recollection is that
> Anduril's light was the same kind of thing; the metal, the light
> reflecting on it, the situation, and some quality or emotion of
> Aragorn led Tolkien to describe it metaphorically in a similar
> way.
>
> But I could be just grotesquely mis-remembering. Can you
> give me some quotations?
In "The Rings of Power and the Third Age" in the Silmarillion, Narsil
is said to "fill orcs and men with fear, for it shone with the light
of the sun and the moon". The LOTR passags describing Anduril talk
about it glowing with 'white fire' or the like, eg when Aragorn
reveals himself to Eomer and later at Helm's Deep and the Pelennor.
Addtionally, the fact that it was made by Telchar, who also made
Angrist, which Beren was able to use to cut the silmaril out of
Morgoth's crown, suggests that it would be likely to have some similar
'magical' properties.
Admitedly, I've always been a bit confused about wheather "shining
with the light of the sun and the moon" means that the blade gave off
its own light, or wheather it was simply very well polished and
happened to reflect the light around it when it was drawn.
Interestingly, in the movies Narsil/Anduril doesn't seem to glow. From
what little we've seen of it, in the prologue it reflects the light of
the sun when Elendil holds it up, but doesn't glow on it's own (ie
when he drops it). When we see it at the future scene showing
Aragorn's funeral, where his corpse is holding it, it doesn't glow
either. Some screen shots from ROTK games are the same. It will be
interesting to see it in action in ROTK though.
Donald Shepherd
alleged...
> Interestingly, in the movies Narsil/Anduril doesn't seem to glow. From
> what little we've seen of it, in the prologue it reflects the light of
> the sun when Elendil holds it up, but doesn't glow on it's own (ie
> when he drops it). When we see it at the future scene showing
> Aragorn's funeral, where his corpse is holding it, it doesn't glow
> either.
But then neither does Glamdring in the movie, and we _know_ that glows.
--
Donald Shepherd
<donald_shepherd @ hotmail . com>
"Tragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you fall into an open
sewer and die." - Mel Brooks
lazarus
<donald_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On 9 Aug 2003 04:22:37 -0700, Aravorn82 <arav...@hotmail.com>
>alleged...
>> Interestingly, in the movies Narsil/Anduril doesn't seem to glow. From
>> what little we've seen of it, in the prologue it reflects the light of
>> the sun when Elendil holds it up, but doesn't glow on it's own (ie
>> when he drops it). When we see it at the future scene showing
>> Aragorn's funeral, where his corpse is holding it, it doesn't glow
>> either.
>
>But then neither does Glamdring in the movie, and we _know_ that glows.
The budget for blue ran short.....
--
lazarus
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president,
or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is
not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American Public." -- Theodore Roosevelt
Conrad Dunkerson
> But I could be just grotesquely mis-remembering. Can you
> give me some quotations?
Others have provided various quotations and here are some more;
"But Narsil was broken and its light extinguished, and it has not yet
been forged again."
FotR, The Council of Elrond
"The elven-sheath glittered as he grasped it, and the bright blade
of Anduril shone like a sudden flame as he swept it out."
TT, The Riders of Rohan
"The light of Anduril must now be uncovered in the battle for
which it has so long waited."
TT, The White Rider
"Anduril rose and fell, gleaming with white fire."
TT, Helm's Deep
"In his hand still Anduril gleamed, and the terror of the sword
for a while held back the enemy, as one by one all who could gain
the stair passed up towards the gate."
TT, Helm's Deep
Anduril is almost ALWAYS described with references to fire or light...
even when Aragorn is just holding it. Thus, if we are talking
metaphors and similies then the same ones are applied to >that
particular sword< with excessive regularity.
Finally, there is the full description of the sword and the parallel
between the 'lights of Sun and Moon' that shone from Anduril and its
runes and inscriptions;
"The Sword of Elendil was forged anew by Elvish smiths, and on its
blade was traced a device of seven stars set between the crescent Moon
and the rayed Sun, and about them was written many runes; for Aragorn
son of Arathorn was going to war upon the marches of Mordor. Very
bright was that sword when it was made whole again; the light of the
sun shone redly in it, and the light of the moon shone cold, and its
edge was hard and keen. And Aragorn gave it a new name and called it
Andúril, Flame of the West."
FotR, The Ring Goes South
Jamie Andrews; real address @ bottom of message
>> light that suggested magical properties to me.
>> give me some quotations?
> Flame of the West. I really don't know if it's just metaphoric or it
> if means Narsil's really magical.
Thanks, Marie-Lan, and the other poster who posted
quotations. However, I still am not convinced that these mean
that Narsil/Anduril had any magical properties. For instance...
> # But even as the orc flung down the truncheon and swept out his
> # scimitar, Anduril came down upon his helm. There was a flash like
> # flame and the helm burst asunder.
"Like" indicates a simile. Also, even if it was a magical
event, was it because of Anduril, because of the evil of the orc
or helm, because of the interaction of the orc and Aragorn, or
just because of Aragorn himself?
> # Aragorn threw back his cloak. The elven-sheath glittered as he
> # grasped it, and the bright blade of Anduril shone like a sudden
> # flame as he swept it out.
"Like" again...
> # Charging from the side, they hurled themselves upon the wild
> # men. Anduril rose and fell, gleaming with white fire. A shout went
> # up from wall and tower: 'Anduril! Anduril goes to war. The Blade
> # that was Broken shines again!'
Not a simile, but could well be a metaphor... any highly
polished, beautiful, unusually pale piece of metal could be said
poetically to "gleam with white fire".
Shippey points out in _JRRT: Author of the Century_ that
Tolkien often expressed things ambiguously when it came to the
question of whether supernatural powers were helping the
Fellowship. The same applies to a lot of the seemingly magical
events. There is no question about Sting's and Glamdring's
glows, the light stabbing from Gandalf's hand toward the Nazgul,
the Morgul-blades evaporating, etc. -- those are definitely
magical. However, Anduril is described in a much more ambiguous
way. I think that if Tolkien had wanted to suggest that it had
the same kind of magic, he would have been more explicit about it.
Jim Deutch
address @ bottom of message) wrote:
> Shippey points out in _JRRT: Author of the Century_ that
>Tolkien often expressed things ambiguously when it came to the
>question of whether supernatural powers were helping the
>Fellowship. The same applies to a lot of the seemingly magical
>events. There is no question about Sting's and Glamdring's
>glows, the light stabbing from Gandalf's hand toward the Nazgul,
>the Morgul-blades evaporating, etc. -- those are definitely
>magical. However, Anduril is described in a much more ambiguous
>way. I think that if Tolkien had wanted to suggest that it had
>the same kind of magic, he would have been more explicit about it.
Perhaps a poor choice of words on your part, but I think that Tolkien
was _deliberately_ ambiguous, and that what he wanted to do was
_exactly_ to "suggest", rather than to be explicit. That's part of
his Art.
Also, he may well have been intending to drive newsgroup posters crazy
with argument-instigating ambiguity...
Jim Deutch
--
"Bah! Conspiracy theories! There's a cabal of little-known Swiss
businessmen that thinks those up, you know." - Tony Walton
Jamie Andrews; real address @ bottom of message
> address @ bottom of message) wrote:
>>However, Anduril is described in a much more ambiguous
>>way. I think that if Tolkien had wanted to suggest that it had
>>the same kind of magic, he would have been more explicit about it.
Jim Deutch <10313...@compuserve.com> wrote:
> Perhaps a poor choice of words on your part, but I think that Tolkien
> was _deliberately_ ambiguous, and that what he wanted to do was
> _exactly_ to "suggest", rather than to be explicit. That's part of
> his Art.
I'll meet you halfway. I would say that Tolkien wanted to
*suggest* that it *may have had* the same kind of magic. :-)
Mark Constantino
Of Feanor.
Oooo.