on the origins of dwarves ....
Chris Hoelscher
made by Aule in the darkness of Middle-Earth (as opposed to Aman) - and he
made the first seven fathers in a hall under the mountains in Middle-Earth
...
okay ... so ... Where?
Mt Gundabad? is it held in reverence by the dwarves NOT (only) because it
was the awakening place of Durin, but because if was the creation place of
all dwarves?
or somewhere else?
the halls that were later called Moria? perhaps the Orocarni ? (all children
seems to have beginnings in the east)
another question, when the 7 (re-)awakened, did they have specific memories
of their creation, or did their memories begin with their (re-)awakening??
Chris Hoelscher
Dirk Thierbach
> the silmarillion states (chap 2) that in their beginning the Dwarves were
> made by Aule in the darkness of Middle-Earth (as opposed to Aman) - and he
> made the first seven fathers in a hall under the mountains in Middle-Earth
> ...
> okay ... so ... Where?
> Mt Gundabad? is it held in reverence by the dwarves NOT (only) because it
> was the awakening place of Durin, but because if was the creation place of
> all dwarves?
I'd say that being the awakening place of Durin is reason enough for the
Dwarves to hold it in reverence. Anything more is pure speculation.
> or somewhere else?
It's also quite possible that even the Dwarves don't know :-)
> the halls that were later called Moria? perhaps the Orocarni ? (all children
> seems to have beginnings in the east)
Again, just because Iluvatar's children do, that doesn't mean that Aule
chose a similar place.
Maybe it's just not possible to answer this question.
> another question, when the 7 (re-)awakened, did they have specific memories
> of their creation, or did their memories begin with their (re-)awakening??
Since Iluvatar gave life to the Seven when they were still in the
original hall, just before Aule wanted to use his hammer, I'd assume
that they would remember that part (though not the creation itself).
Being alife usually means to be able to form memories.
Unless Iluvatar wanted to spare them the trauma, and erased that part
from their memory, or whatever.
But that's all speculation on my part.
- Dirk
Troels Forchhammer
"Chris Hoelscher" <chrisho...@insightbb.com> spoke these staves:
> the silmarillion states (chap 2) that in their beginning the
> Dwarves were made by Aule in the darkness of Middle-Earth (as
> opposed to Aman) - and he made the first seven fathers in a hall
> under the mountains in Middle-Earth ...
>
> okay ... so ... Where?
To the best of my knowledge there is no hint whatsoever beyond what
you quote here. It seems to me likely that Tolkien never considered
this question -- that there is no correct answer.
> Mt Gundabad?
That would, I think, be one of the more likely places.
> is it held in reverence by the dwarves NOT (only) because it was
> the awakening place of Durin, but because if was the creation
> place of all dwarves?
First of all, if Tolkien had actually intended this, I would expect
that he would have mentioned it in the 'Of Dwarves and Men' essay
published in _The Peoples of Middle-earth_. However, if we accept
that Tolkien never got around to actually intend anything with
respect to this question, then there are several ways in which we can
construct the story to fit your idea. The Dwarves, for instance,
could be even more secretive about this fact than about other things
concerning their race, and so the Elven and Mannish sources that form
the manner of transfer within the narrative conceit would not know
anything about it.
> or somewhere else?
Even if Mount Gundabad is probably the most likely precise location
(IMO and as far as I have had time to think it over), I still think
that 'somewhere else' is more likely ;-)
> the halls that were later called Moria?
My impression with respect to Moria is that it is predominantly mined
(very little is natural caverns), and that it was mined by Durin's
people after their arrival there. Any argument I might make will
probably just be a pseudo-argument: an attempt to justify what is
just a feeling of 'I don't think so', so why don't I just leave it at
that ;-)
> perhaps the Orocarni ?
Another of the more likely spots, precisely for the reason you give
below
> (all children seems to have beginnings in the east)
Yup. And this makes the transfer of two of the Dwarf-fathers to the
Blue Mountains rather special.
> another question, when the 7 (re-)awakened, did they have specific
> memories of their creation, or did their memories begin with their
> (re-)awakening??
I can't remember where it is, but I think that there is something
somewhere about the Dwarves believing that Aul� has instructed them
or told them something about themselves -- I believe that I remember
something about their believing that there are some separate halls
set aside for them at Mandos? Anyway, my point is that any such
instruction of the Dwarves as a race by Aul� would seem to me natural
to have occurred precisely between Aul� and the seven Dwarf-fathers
(and -mothers) before he separated them at put them to sleep until
the arrival of the Elves. The belief that Aul� himself had told them
something would therefore, IMO, imply a (possibly quite vague)
preference for the idea that the Dwarf-fathers did remember what
happened at their creation. This is also, IMO, implied by the stories
in 'Of Dwarves and Men' of communications between the widely spread
settlements of Dwarves already in the early ages -- why would the
Dwarves of the Blue Mountains (the Firebeards and Broadbeams), for
instance, have attempted to communicate with the other Dwarven
peoples unless they knew about them? I think the total spread of the
Dwarven fathers is implied to have been so great that only knowledge
about the others would have got them to open communication lines
already during the First Age.
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.
They both savoured the strange warm glow of being much
more ignorant than ordinary people, who were only ignorant
of ordinary things.
- Discworld scientists at work, /Equal Rites/ (Terry Pratchett)
Noel Q. von Schneiffel
wrote:
> the silmarillion states (chap 2) that in their beginning the Dwarves were
> made by Aule in the darkness of Middle-Earth (as opposed to Aman) - and he
> made the first seven fathers in a hall under the mountains in Middle-Earth
> ...
>
> okay ... so ... Where?
The truth is, they were made in a cavern under Bree-hill. In the Third
Age, this cavern could still be accessed through the cellar of the
Prancing Pony, which is the reason why dwarves kept travelling through
Bree and stayed at the inn. During the day, they went downstairs to
pray, and in the evening, it was just a short stairway to the guest
hall and the booze. Very comfortable pilgrimage compared to, say, a
journey to Mount Gundabad. The name "Bree" itself is of course derived
from the verb "breed", relating to this process.
By the way, few people know that Bombadil was the eighth Father of the
Dwarves - or the first, if you want. He was the prototype when Aule
hadn't quite figured it out, and he turned out, well, mentally
deficient. Aule just tossed him out into the woods and went on to make
Durin.
Noel
Öjevind Lång
meddelandet
news:4e2bff66-6bd2-47b0...@f16g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
[snip]
> The truth is, they were made in a cavern under Bree-hill. In the Third
> Age, this cavern could still be accessed through the cellar of the
> Prancing Pony, which is the reason why dwarves kept travelling through
> Bree and stayed at the inn. During the day, they went downstairs to
> pray, and in the evening, it was just a short stairway to the guest
> hall and the booze. Very comfortable pilgrimage compared to, say, a
> journey to Mount Gundabad. The name "Bree" itself is of course derived
> from the verb "breed", relating to this process.
They also went downstairs to make new little Dwarves. It was part of a
fertility ceremony that went back all the way to the first of their kind.
the Dwarves were convnced that if they neglected this sacrred duty, the
would all go to hell. (Hell was, of course, a deep hole without any gold in
it.)
�jevind
Count Menelvagor
> "Noel Q. von Schneiffel" <noel.von.schneif...@fats.teunc.org> skrev i
> meddelandetnews:4e2bff66-6bd2-47b0...@f16g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
and it's full of the sound of elves singing tra-la-la-lally. nasty.
you don't want to be a damned dwarf.
Öjevind Lång
news:2d15959e-dc53-47a5...@d5g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
[snip]
> you don't want to be a damned dwarf.
Being the descendant of a Burned Dwarf is honourable. Being descended from a
Scorched dwarf (= a Dwarf who went to hell) is not honourable.
�jeind
Count Menelvagor
> "Count Menelvagor" <Menelva...@mailandnews.com> skrev i meddelandetnews:2d15959e-dc53-47a5...@d5g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
>
> [snip]
>
> > you don't want to be a damned dwarf.
>
> Being the descendant of a Burned Dwarf is honourable. Being descended from a
> Scorched dwarf (= a Dwarf who went to hell) is not honourable.
yes, and the dwarvish for "hell" is khazad-dâmn.