Aragorn and Denethor
David Salo
Gondor, it's interesting to wonder what would have happened if Denethor had
remained alive. One can imagine a conversation rather like this.
Aragorn: I am the heir of Isildur, and claim the crown of Gondor in
right of my ancestor.
Denethor: I am inclined to stand by the decision of Pelendur and the
Council in this matter. [Translation: I've got a thousand-year-old
precedent that says your claim is worthless.]
Aragorn: Nonetheless, I am High King over all the Dunedain of
Middle-earth, and have suzerainty over your kingdom.
Denethor: Even allowing your claim, which warrants further examination,
the precise nature of the suzerainty of the High King over Gondor remains
undefined. [Translation: And that means what?]
Aragorn: As High King I have the right to regulate the succession of
both kingdoms. And it is your duty, as Steward of Gondor, to surrender the
kingdom with which you have been charged to its rightful ruler.
[Translation: If you keep this up, I'm going to sack you.]
Denethor: This is a weighty matter which must be taken under the serious
advisement of the Steward and his Council; the rule of Gondor, which it is
my charge to maintain, shall not be surrendered lightly without full
consideration of all presumed causes, consequences, and ramifications of
such surrender. [Translation: You and what army?]
After this, things get ugly....
This is one reason why, if Aragorn had been more practical and less
idealistic, when Frodo said "Then it belongs to yu, and not to me at all!",
Aragorn would have said "That's right. Hand it over, Halfling!" When you
have the Ruling Ring, arguments like the above simply do not occur.
StevieRayVonnegut
the War of the Ring and not accepted Aragorn's claim, no worries. He
was already about half dead from using the Palantir and the stress of
the war. Aragorn might have waited him out in Arnor, Ithilien, or Dol
Amroth and dealt with a much more sympathetic Faramir when he died.
Just a thought--
StevieRayVonnegut,
Program Director,
KZDM, Radio Free Moria,
Broadcasting live high atop Zirak-zigil
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Russ
(David Salo) writes:
> Given the complex legal nature of Aragorn's claim to the throne of
>Gondor, it's interesting to wonder what would have happened if Denethor had
>remained alive. One can imagine a conversation rather like this.
>
> Aragorn: I am the heir of Isildur, and claim the crown of Gondor in
>right of my ancestor.
>
> Denethor: I am inclined to stand by the decision of Pelendur and the
>Council in this matter. [Translation: I've got a thousand-year-old
>precedent that says your claim is worthless.]
I still disagree with your argument that Aragorn relied promarily on the
Isildur heirship.
The banner Aragorn unfurled was that of Elendil:
"...and behold! upon the foremost ship a great standard broke, and the wind
displayed it as she turned towards the Harlond. There flowered a White Tree,
and that was for Gondor; but Seven Stars were about it, and a high crown above
it, the signs of Elendil that no lord had borne for years beyond count."
"...and upon his brow was the Star of Elendil"
Aragorn was annoucing himself to Minas Tirith as heir of Elendil, not heir of
Isildur.
Eomer recognized this as they spoke with Imrahil after the battle:
"But Eomer said: 'Already you have raised the banner of the Kings and displayed
the tokens of Elendil's House. Will you suffer these to be challenged?"
>
> Aragorn: Nonetheless, I am High King over all the Dunedain of
>Middle-earth, and have suzerainty over your kingdom.
>
> Denethor: Even allowing your claim, which warrants further examination,
>the precise nature of the suzerainty of the High King over Gondor remains
>undefined. [Translation: And that means what?]
>
> Aragorn: As High King I have the right to regulate the succession of
>both kingdoms. And it is your duty, as Steward of Gondor, to surrender the
>kingdom with which you have been charged to its rightful ruler.
>[Translation: If you keep this up, I'm going to sack you.]
>
> Denethor: This is a weighty matter which must be taken under the serious
>advisement of the Steward and his Council; the rule of Gondor, which it is
>my charge to maintain, shall not be surrendered lightly without full
>consideration of all presumed causes, consequences, and ramifications of
>such surrender. [Translation: You and what army?]
>
> After this, things get ugly....
>
> This is one reason why, if Aragorn had been more practical and less
>idealistic, when Frodo said "Then it belongs to yu, and not to me at all!",
>Aragorn would have said "That's right. Hand it over, Halfling!" When you
>have the Ruling Ring, arguments like the above simply do not occur.
>
It appears that the realms most powerful noble had already accepted Aragorn's
bona fides:
After Merry greated Aragorn at the door to the Houses of Healing:
"But Imrahil said to Eomer: 'Is is thus that we speak to our kings? Yet maybe
he will wear his crown in some other name.'"
In addition, Faramir accepted Aragorn's claim without question.
Not even knowing what was going on Faramir saw Aragorn:
"Suddenly Faramir stirred, and he opened his eyes, and he looked on Aragorn who
bent over him; and a light of knowledge and love was kindled in his eyes, and
he spoke softly. 'My lord, you called me. I come. What does the king command?'"
Later the word spreads:
"...Ioreth exclaim[s]: 'King! Did you hear that? What did I say? The hands ofa
healer, I said.' And soon the word had gone out from the House that the king
was indeed among them, and after war he brought healing, and news ran through
the City."
Denethor didn't stand a chance
Russ
ERK1030
Forties, Denethor never really liked him. In fact, Denethor realized pretty
early on who this "Thorongil" guy was, what his purpose was, and who his
backers were (and they just HAPPENED to be wearing 3 particularly impressive
pieces of jewelery). So it serves as no small wonder that when Denethor saw in
the palantir that his childhood rival was coming back, and that THIS time he
had a bit of documentation (and the support of most of Gondor's allies), who
can blame him for becoming a tad suicidal? If he had survived, Civil war would
have been inevitable. And since it would be completely out of character for
Aragorn to wage war on the very kingdom he was supposed to be claiming, Tolkien
avoided the issue by getting rid of Denethor before the issue came up.
-Mithrigil
Stan Brown
rec.arts.books.tolkien:
>Perhaps the bottom line might be thus: If Denethor had made it through
>the War of the Ring and not accepted Aragorn's claim, no worries. He
>was already about half dead from using the Palantir and the stress of
>the war. Aragorn might have waited him out in Arnor, Ithilien, or Dol
>Amroth and dealt with a much more sympathetic Faramir when he died.
Possible.
But if Denethor had made it through the War without accepting
Aragorn's claim, I think the war would have been lost. Imagine the
effect of two conflicting parties of "Steward's Men" and "King's Men"
in Gondor, with troops possibly fighting each other.
Picture the Spanish Civil War, only with an external enemy actually
invading at the time. Whichever party won in Spain, Spain itself
would have been conquered and occupied.
So I think Tolkien *had* to get Denethor out of the way before there
was any possibility of a conflict with Aragorn. Or else Denethor
would have had to accept Aragorn wholeheartedly. But then we would
have lost the drama of Aragorn being known as general and healer
before he was acclaimed as King.
Don't forget that Aragorn's title rested not only on his being the
Heir of Elendil but on the consent of the nobles and the people. That
question in front of the barred gate was a formality, but only
because it was already clear that everyone wanted Aragorn to rule
them.
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA
http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
Tolkien FAQs:
http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/TolkNgFaq.html (Jensen)
http://garnet.acns.fsu.edu/~gsl9286/aft/faq/ (Loos)
Inklings site list:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/GregorArlt/inklings_sites.html
more FAQs: http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/faqget.htm
Michael Martinez
>Perhaps the bottom line might be thus: If Denethor had made it through
>the War of the Ring and not accepted Aragorn's claim, no worries. He
>was already about half dead from using the Palantir and the stress of
>the war. Aragorn might have waited him out in Arnor, Ithilien, or Dol
>Amroth and dealt with a much more sympathetic Faramir when he died.
Aragorn would not have been free to sue for the kingship again. He got only
one shot, and he wisely deferred going for it immediately after the Battle of
the Pelennor Fields, before he learned of Denethor's death and was tentatively
acknowledged by Faramir.
--
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Mark Wells
>You know, when Aragorn was wreaking havoc as Thorongil back in his Thirties and
>Forties, Denethor never really liked him. In fact, Denethor realized pretty
>early on who this "Thorongil" guy was, what his purpose was, and who his
>backers were (and they just HAPPENED to be wearing 3 particularly impressive
>pieces of jewelery). So it serves as no small wonder that when Denethor saw in
I don't think he would realize who _all_ of Thorongil's allies were.
Gandalf, maybe, since he occasionally showed up in Minas Tirith to do
research. He certainly wouldn't know about Galadriel or the Three Rings.
>the palantir that his childhood rival was coming back, and that THIS time he
>had a bit of documentation (and the support of most of Gondor's allies), who
>can blame him for becoming a tad suicidal? If he had survived, Civil war would
>have been inevitable. And since it would be completely out of character for
Probably not a civil war. Denethor wouldn't have enough support for that.
I think he just didn't want to step down.
Jonathan White
"Russ" <mcr...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000126204741...@nso-ch.aol.com...
> In article <dsalo-ya02408000...@news.terracom.net>,
ds...@usa.net
> (David Salo) writes:
>
> > Given the complex legal nature of Aragorn's claim to the throne of
> >Gondor, it's interesting to wonder what would have happened if Denethor
had
> >remained alive. One can imagine a conversation rather like this.
> >
> > Aragorn: I am the heir of Isildur, and claim the crown of Gondor in
> >right of my ancestor.
> >
> > Denethor: I am inclined to stand by the decision of Pelendur and the
> >Council in this matter. [Translation: I've got a thousand-year-old
> >precedent that says your claim is worthless.]
>
> I still disagree with your argument that Aragorn relied promarily on the
> Isildur heirship.
>
> The banner Aragorn unfurled was that of Elendil:
>
heir of Elendil - so the two things are one and the same.
My reading was always that the "banner of Elendil" was actually the banner
of Elendil's house - is that right? Did Isildur and any of the later kings
use that banner?
Jon
Arkady
David Salo <ds...@usa.net> wrote in message
news:dsalo-ya02408000...@news.terracom.net...
> Given the complex legal nature of Aragorn's claim to the throne of
> Gondor, it's interesting to wonder what would have happened if Denethor
had
> remained alive. One can imagine a conversation rather like this.
>
> Aragorn: I am the heir of Isildur, and claim the crown of Gondor in
> right of my ancestor.
*snip*
excellent stuff!
T. Anderson
whup-ass brawl between Aragorn and the Dunedain of Gondor on one hand and
Boromir and the tower guard on the other.
Faramir and the Sons of Elrond would just stand around and look sad and
confused.
David Salo wrote in message ...
StevieRayVonnegut
also plans a duel the the death during marriage counseling between
Galadriel and Celeborn. Later there will be funding problems and
jealousy between Arnor and Gondor with lead to the sequel: NORTH AND
SOUTH--a mini series starring Richard Chamberlain, Levar Burton,
Richard Chamberlain, Joan Collins and Richard Chamberlain
In article <ZP8k4.472$Mq4....@newsfeed.slurp.net>, "T. Anderson"
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
StevieRayVonnegut
results of Denethor surviving the War, how about this:
Boromir doesn't go North, but Faramir does, and succombs to the Ring's
temptation and dies defending the Hobbits just like his big brother
did. Now, even with Denethor's suicide, how does Boromir act in regards
to Aragorn?
StevieRayVonnegut,
Executive Producer,
The Twilight Zone: The Middle Earth Mysteries,
KZDM, Kazad-dum Presentations.
Television City, Hollinwood.
Iain Singer
<Mic...@xenite.org> writes
>In article <05043480...@usw-ex0102-015.remarq.com>, StevieRayVonnegut
><buckbucknum...@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
>>Perhaps the bottom line might be thus: If Denethor had made it through
>>the War of the Ring and not accepted Aragorn's claim, no worries. He
>>was already about half dead from using the Palantir and the stress of
>>the war. Aragorn might have waited him out in Arnor, Ithilien, or Dol
>>Amroth and dealt with a much more sympathetic Faramir when he died.
>
>Aragorn would not have been free to sue for the kingship again. He got only
>one shot, and he wisely deferred going for it immediately after the Battle of
>the Pelennor Fields, before he learned of Denethor's death and was tentatively
>acknowledged by Faramir.
>
>
confrontation Aragorn to Denethor. Denethor had the backing of history
and despite his relative withdrawal from public appearance the general
backing of history tends to be reflected in public aquiesence. Had
Denethor survived one has to doubt whether Aragorn would have had any
success, Faramir attitude to things elvish (upon which ultimately
Aragorns proof rested) was if not unique, certainly a minority view.
Boromirs acceptance of Aragorn was hardly unequivocal, Denethors would
have been less so with better justification and better argument
perhaps... but Aragorn had a military victory to support his claim which
is always a "vote" winner. Not that having read the novel one doubts his
right to the throne nevertheless given the years of Stewards rule one
has to feel for Denethors position and the weight of history and its
support of his status he has a reason to feel aggrieved when he looks at
the disenfrachisement of his sons in the favour of some hick from the
sticks whose line has done little if anything to support the struggle
that Gondor had undergone for a thousand years or more. Denethor
dispaired under the effect of Sauron but Gandalf gave a better account
of him up to that point in a struggle that Gandalf was afraid of
undertaking. It is doubtful that Gondor would have been a force had not
it had the hand of Denethor (and indeed Boromir). Where then the claims
of Aragorn?
--
Iain Singer
Shadowfax
Shadowfax
Climb on my back and come for a ride
Rick
Supposing Denethor survived the Ring, and was released from the domination
of Sauron, under which he had fallen via his use of the Palantir. I would
think it most likely that out of penitence he would have handed over his
stewardship in a redemption scene of sorts, where he promises to live out
his remaining days healing the hurts he allowed while under Sauron's
domination. Or, if we prefer to have Denethor remain alive but unwilling to
relinquish the stewardship, then I think Tolkien would have, if he choose
that much, would have had Aragorn return to the North Kingdom and set that
in order, and upon the Death of Denethor, Faramir would have called Aragorn
back and asked him to take up his kingship of both the north and the south
kingdoms at that time.
I prefer either alternative to things getting 'ugly' ;)
CHUCK BRAMLET
Mithrigil wrote...
[snip]
>backers were (and they just HAPPENED to be wearing 3 particularly
>impressive pieces of jewelery).
Scuse, please. Galadriel told Frodo that it was not permitted to
speak of the Three. If Denethor had known of them, Sauron for darn
sure would have, and would have been at the gates of Lorien and
Rivendell with his armies to take them. As well as having a "Wanted
Dead or Alive" on Gandalf for his. He suspected, but didn't know
for sure.
All Denethor knew from the palantir was that Aragorn was a ranger
from the north. He may or may not have recognized him as his old
rival "Thorongil".
In a previous article, Ia...@ioscm.demon.co.uk (Iain Singer) says:
>has to feel for Denethors position and the weight of history and its
>support of his status he has a reason to feel aggrieved when he looks at
>the disenfrachisement of his sons in the favour of some hick from the
>sticks whose line has done little if anything to support the struggle
>that Gondor had undergone for a thousand years or more. Denethor
We know that the Rangers tried to hold Tharbad(?), the (fords of the
Baranduin) against the Nazgul. How many other activities were done by
them, and how much of the stuff from the north was kept from Gondor and
Rohan by their actions? What part did that play that gave Gondor some
little breathing room over the years to better carry on its own fight
in Ithilien and elsewhere?
--
David Salo
<kat...@mediaone.net> wrote:
> Or, if we prefer to have Denethor remain alive but unwilling to
> relinquish the stewardship, then I think Tolkien would have, if he choose
> that much, would have had Aragorn return to the North Kingdom and set that
> in order, and upon the Death of Denethor, Faramir would have called Aragorn
> back and asked him to take up his kingship of both the north and the south
> kingdoms at that time.
> I prefer either alternative to things getting 'ugly' ;)
If we take the scenario seriously (and I wasn't), I tend to agree with
you. Denethor was the Steward, the caretaker, of the Realm of Gondor, and
it was his duty to hand over the realm in good order to the rightful king.
And therefore it was also his duty to examine the credentials of any
candidate for that position. Denethor, not being stupid, nor anxious to
alienate a lot of people, would have said "your claim is very intriguing"
and set up a judicial task force composed of the dullest, least imaginative
people possible and set them the task of digging up genealogical data,
verifying the lineage, examining the legal issues surrounding the transfer
of power from the House of Anarion to the House of Isildur, and so on. He
could have kept the question in the courts for decades. By that time an
older and perhaps less idealistic Faramir might have come to doubt the
wisdom of his impulses of 30-odd years ago; or Denethor might have been
able to pass over Faramir in favor of some other Hurinion who was more
politically minded.
David Salo
David Salo
(Russ) wrote:
> I still disagree with your argument that Aragorn relied promarily on the
> Isildur heirship.
Not sure of your distinction here. Aragorn was the heir of Elendil;
Aragorn was also the heir of Isildur, the heir of Elendil. My suggestion
was that Aragorn relies upon the fact that Isildur was king of Gondor as
well as Arnor to justify his rule over Gondor, rather than relying merely
on Elendil's vaguer status as High King. But I am sure that Aragorn made
those claims as well! I don't think, however, that he claimed to throne as
heir of the house of Anarion.
> The banner Aragorn unfurled was that of Elendil:
>
> "...and behold! upon the foremost ship a great standard broke, and the wind
> displayed it as she turned towards the Harlond. There flowered a White Tree,
> and that was for Gondor; but Seven Stars were about it, and a high crown above
> it, the signs of Elendil that no lord had borne for years beyond count."
These are exactly the same signs as are borne by the Guards of the
Citadel, representing the Anarionid kings of Gondor: the Anarioni evidently
also counted themselves as heirs of Elendil, as far as Gondor was
concerned! But if the White Tree was "for Gondor", then I presume that
Elendil would _not_ have used it in his court in Annúminas.
You've got to wonder about these "years beyond count"; I make it 969
years. Probably an indication that we don't always need to take Tolkien's
words quite so exactly as some do!
> "...and upon his brow was the Star of Elendil"
Well, that was the name of the jewel.
> Aragorn was annoucing himself to Minas Tirith as heir of Elendil, not heir of
> Isildur.
> Eomer recognized this as they spoke with Imrahil after the battle:
>
> "But Eomer said: 'Already you have raised the banner of the Kings and
displayed
> the tokens of Elendil's House. Will you suffer these to be challenged?"
Hm: I wonder what is meant by "banner of the Kings"? "The Kings of
Gondor", meaning all the ones consecutively from Isildur and Anarion down
to Earnur? Or "The Two Kings of Gondor", Isildur and Anarion? Either
reading would work; and you could tell the distinction in Quenya (aranu vs.
arani), though maybe not in the language of Rohan.
On the other hand, we have:
"I am but the heir of Isildur, not Isildur himself"
"Long have I desired to look upon the likenesses of Isildur and Anarion,
my sires of old. Under their shadow Elessar, the Elfstone son of Arathorn
of the House of Valandil Isildur's son, heir of Elendil, has nought to
dread!"
"In the very hour of his great designs the heir of Isildur and the Sword
are revealed"
"For I am Elessar, Isildur's heir of Gondor" (This is in the context of
Aragorn speaking to the Dead of Dunharrow, invoking the oath that the Dead
hasd sworn to Isildur as King of Gondor)
"Hear now the words of the Heir of Isildur!"
Among Faramir's recitation of Aragorn's titles is "Elessar of the line of
Valandil, Isildur's son, Elendil's son of Numenor."
Note also Denethor's response to Aragorn's claims:
"But I say to thee, Gandalf Mithrandir, I will not be thy tool. I am
Steward of the House of Anarion. I will not step down to be the dotard
chamberlain of an upstart. Even were his claim proved to me, still he
comes but of the line of Isildur. I will not bow to such a one, last of a
ragged house long bereft of lordship and dignity."
Denethor here seems to allow the possibility of a claim by the line of
Isildur, but very forcefully says that he would resist such a claim,
because he sees the line of Isildur as inferior to the House of Anarion.
It's difficult to prove anything from either set of quotes: certainly,
genealogically, Aragorn _was_ heir of both Isildur and Elendil, and was
prodigal in reminding people of that fact. The interesting thing is that
he thought it was important. If he had not worried about his ancestral
claim, he could have dispensed with the verbiage; if he was claiming a
right through Firiel daughter of Ondoher, he never bothers to mention it;
but if he thought that the line of Isildur would not be accepted in Gondor
(in accordance with Denethor's view!) it would have been more politic of
him not to trumpet "Heir of Isildur" (or worse yet, of Valandil, who was
never effective King of Gondor) at every opportunity. It's true that we
see less of this when Aragorn is actually in Gondor; but he does boast of
his Isildurian ancestry in front of Boromir, who is of course the next most
nearly concerned. (Aragorn may have had some problems with _tact_).
David Salo
Robert S. Coren
David Salo <ds...@usa.net> wrote:
>>
>> "But Eomer said: 'Already you have raised the banner of the Kings and
>displayed
>> the tokens of Elendil's House. Will you suffer these to be challenged?"
>
> Hm: I wonder what is meant by "banner of the Kings"? "The Kings of
>Gondor", meaning all the ones consecutively from Isildur and Anarion down
>to Earnur? Or "The Two Kings of Gondor", Isildur and Anarion? Either
>reading would work; and you could tell the distinction in Quenya (aranu vs.
>arani), though maybe not in the language of Rohan.
And perhaps not in Westron, which is presumably what Eomer was
speaking at the time.
> Note also Denethor's response to Aragorn's claims:
>
>"But I say to thee, Gandalf Mithrandir, I will not be thy tool. I am
>Steward of the House of Anarion. I will not step down to be the dotard
>chamberlain of an upstart. Even were his claim proved to me, still he
>comes but of the line of Isildur. I will not bow to such a one, last of a
>ragged house long bereft of lordship and dignity."
>
> Denethor here seems to allow the possibility of a claim by the line of
>Isildur, but very forcefully says that he would resist such a claim,
>because he sees the line of Isildur as inferior to the House of Anarion.
Well, Denethor at this point is already well on his way into paranoia,
and his excess of pride in himself and his position is
well-established; I suspect he was sufficiently bound, emotionally
speaking, to maintaining his power as Steward that it would have been
extremely difficult to come up with a claim to the throne of Gondor
that would have satisfied him. Whether his attitude toward the
relative rights and dignities of the lines of Isildur and Anarion was
widely shared in Gondor is unknown.
>It's true that we
>see less of this when Aragorn is actually in Gondor; but he does boast of
>his Isildurian ancestry in front of Boromir, who is of course the next most
>nearly concerned. (Aragorn may have had some problems with _tact_).
Unlike Gandalf, who impressed upon Pippin the inadvisability of
mentioning Aragorn's existence to Denethor.
--
-------Robert Coren (co...@spdcc.com)-------------------------
"Little baklavas pulsate in the oven. It's scary and somewhat
erotic." --BBC
Russ
>> I still disagree with your argument that Aragorn relied promarily on the
>> Isildur heirship.
>
> Not sure of your distinction here. Aragorn was the heir of Elendil;
>Aragorn was also the heir of Isildur, the heir of Elendil. My suggestion
>was that Aragorn relies upon the fact that Isildur was king of Gondor as
>well as Arnor to justify his rule over Gondor, rather than relying merely
>on Elendil's vaguer status as High King.
That's my disagreement. IMO, Aragorn certainly didn't ignore the Isildur
lineage, but upon his arrival in the Minas Tirith area, he, and those around
him, were accentuating the Elendil lineage.
But I am sure that Aragorn made
>those claims as well! I don't think, however, that he claimed to throne as
>heir of the house of Anarion.
>
>> The banner Aragorn unfurled was that of Elendil:
>>
>> "...and behold! upon the foremost ship a great standard broke, and the wind
>> displayed it as she turned towards the Harlond. There flowered a White
>Tree,
>> and that was for Gondor; but Seven Stars were about it, and a high crown
>above
>> it, the signs of Elendil that no lord had borne for years beyond count."
>
> These are exactly the same signs as are borne by the Guards of the
>Citadel, representing the Anarionid kings of Gondor: the Anarioni evidently
>also counted themselves as heirs of Elendil, as far as Gondor was
>concerned! But if the White Tree was "for Gondor", then I presume that
>Elendil would _not_ have used it in his court in Annúminas.
Did Anarion's coat of arms include *all* those elements: Tree, Stars and Crown?
> You've got to wonder about these "years beyond count"; I make it 969
>years. Probably an indication that we don't always need to take Tolkien's
>words quite so exactly as some do!
<snip>
>> Aragorn was annoucing himself to Minas Tirith as heir of Elendil, not heir
>of
>> Isildur.
>
>> Eomer recognized this as they spoke with Imrahil after the battle:
>>
>> "But Eomer said: 'Already you have raised the banner of the Kings and
>displayed
>> the tokens of Elendil's House. Will you suffer these to be challenged?"
>
> Hm: I wonder what is meant by "banner of the Kings"? "The Kings of
>Gondor", meaning all the ones consecutively from Isildur and Anarion down
>to Earnur? Or "The Two Kings of Gondor", Isildur and Anarion? Either
>reading would work; and you could tell the distinction in Quenya (aranu vs.
>arani), though maybe not in the language of Rohan.
>
> On the other hand, we have:
>
> "I am but the heir of Isildur, not Isildur himself"
>
> "Long have I desired to look upon the likenesses of Isildur and Anarion,
>my sires of old. Under their shadow Elessar, the Elfstone son of Arathorn
>of the House of Valandil Isildur's son, heir of Elendil, has nought to
>dread!"
>
> "In the very hour of his great designs the heir of Isildur and the Sword
>are revealed"
>
> "For I am Elessar, Isildur's heir of Gondor" (This is in the context of
>Aragorn speaking to the Dead of Dunharrow, invoking the oath that the Dead
>hasd sworn to Isildur as King of Gondor)
>
> "Hear now the words of the Heir of Isildur!"
>
> Among Faramir's recitation of Aragorn's titles is "Elessar of the line of
>Valandil, Isildur's son, Elendil's son of Numenor."
Most of those instances are prior to the Battle of Pellenor Fields. My point
is that upon his arrival at Minas Tirith, Aragorn was emphasizing the Elendil
connection rather than the Isildur connection.
> Note also Denethor's response to Aragorn's claims:
>
>"But I say to thee, Gandalf Mithrandir, I will not be thy tool. I am
>Steward of the House of Anarion. I will not step down to be the dotard
>chamberlain of an upstart. Even were his claim proved to me, still he
>comes but of the line of Isildur. I will not bow to such a one, last of a
>ragged house long bereft of lordship and dignity."
>
> Denethor here seems to allow the possibility of a claim by the line of
>Isildur, but very forcefully says that he would resist such a claim,
>because he sees the line of Isildur as inferior to the House of Anarion.
Right. Since Denethor doesn't like the idea, he emphazises the "weaker" of the
claims.
> It's difficult to prove anything from either set of quotes: certainly,
>genealogically, Aragorn _was_ heir of both Isildur and Elendil, and was
>prodigal in reminding people of that fact.
You can say that again.
Like the Van Morrison song: Have I told you lately that...
> The interesting thing is that
>he thought it was important. If he had not worried about his ancestral
>claim, he could have dispensed with the verbiage; if he was claiming a
>right through Firiel daughter of Ondoher, he never bothers to mention it;
>but if he thought that the line of Isildur would not be accepted in Gondor
>(in accordance with Denethor's view!) it would have been more politic of
>him not to trumpet "Heir of Isildur" (or worse yet, of Valandil, who was
>never effective King of Gondor) at every opportunity. It's true that we
>see less of this when Aragorn is actually in Gondor
That's really my point. Once in Gondor, and more specifically once in the
environs of Minas Tirith, I think there's a noticible emphasis on Elendil
rather than Isildur.
; but he does boast of
>his Isildurian ancestry in front of Boromir, who is of course the next most
>nearly concerned. (Aragorn may have had some problems with _tact_).
Comes from all those years in the wild talking to himself wondering what Arwen
and Gildor are up to in his absence.
Russ
Michael Martinez
>In article <dsalo-ya02408000...@news.terracom.net>, ds...@usa.net
>(David Salo) writes:
>
>> But I am sure that Aragorn made
>>those claims as well! I don't think, however, that he claimed to throne as
>>heir of the house of Anarion.
>>
>>> The banner Aragorn unfurled was that of Elendil:
>>>
>>> "...and behold! upon the foremost ship a great standard broke, and the wind
>>> displayed it as she turned towards the Harlond. There flowered a White
>>>Tree, and that was for Gondor; but Seven Stars were about it, and a high
>>>crown above it, the signs of Elendil that no lord had borne for years
>>>beyond count."
>>
>> These are exactly the same signs as are borne by the Guards of the
>>Citadel, representing the Anarionid kings of Gondor: the Anarioni evidently
>>also counted themselves as heirs of Elendil, as far as Gondor was
>>concerned! But if the White Tree was "for Gondor", then I presume that
>>Elendil would _not_ have used it in his court in Annúminas.
>
>Did Anarion's coat of arms include *all* those elements: Tree, Stars and Crown?
No. At least, the guards' emblems didn't include the seven stars (which, so
far as I know, can only be used by Elendil or his heir, the High King -- and
after Isildur departed there WERE no High Kings in Gondor). The index is not
entirely clear on the issue, however. On the one hand, it says the seven
stars were the symbol of Elendil and his captains; but it also says in Gondor
the seven stars were set about a white tree, and over all the Kings put the
winged crown.
>>"But I say to thee, Gandalf Mithrandir, I will not be thy tool. I am
>>Steward of the House of Anarion. I will not step down to be the dotard
>>chamberlain of an upstart. Even were his claim proved to me, still he
>>comes but of the line of Isildur. I will not bow to such a one, last of a
>>ragged house long bereft of lordship and dignity."
>>
>> Denethor here seems to allow the possibility of a claim by the line of
>>Isildur, but very forcefully says that he would resist such a claim,
>>because he sees the line of Isildur as inferior to the House of Anarion.
>
>Right. Since Denethor doesn't like the idea, he emphazises the "weaker" of the
>claims.
Actually, Denethor flat out states he won't step aside for an Heir of Isildur.
Denethor's words also imply that the Isildurian claim holds no weight under
Gondorian law (which was based on custom and precedent, and the precedent had
already been established).
>That's really my point. Once in Gondor, and more specifically once in the
>environs of Minas Tirith, I think there's a noticible emphasis on Elendil
>rather than Isildur.
>
>; but he does boast of
>>his Isildurian ancestry in front of Boromir, who is of course the next most
>>nearly concerned. (Aragorn may have had some problems with _tact_).
>
>Comes from all those years in the wild talking to himself wondering what Arwen
>and Gildor are up to in his absence.
Boromir's opinion was largely irrelevant, and Aragorn's "boast" was also made
in answer to Boromir's quest for an answer to his riddle, which didn't mention
Elendil directly. But Aragorn nonetheless asked Boromir if he wished for the
House of ELENDIL (not Isildur) to return to Gondor. That fact was
sidestepped by Mr. Salo.
Conrad Dunkerson
news:Yl6MwDA3...@ioscm.demon.co.uk...
> the disenfrachisement of his sons in the favour of some hick from
> the sticks whose line has done little if anything to support the
> struggle that Gondor had undergone for a thousand years or more.
> It is doubtful that Gondor would have been a force had not it had
> the hand of Denethor (and indeed Boromir). Where then the claims
> of Aragorn?
It is doubtful that Gondor would have been a force had not it had
the hand of Thorongil. Where then the claims of Denethor?
Ermanna
"T. Anderson" wrote:
<shnip>
> Dunedain of Gondor
Don't you mean Dunedain of the North?
<shnip>
> Faramir and the Sons of Elrond would just stand around and look sad and
> confused.
Somehow I don't get the feeling that Elladan and Elrohis would just stand
around. They just don't feel that way to me.
Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight
A Elbereth Gilthoniel
ERK1030
Gandalf, maybe, since he occasionally showed up in Minas Tirith to do
research. He certainly wouldn't know about Galadriel or the Three Rings.
I know that. But I was merely stating that Denethor knew who was on who's side-
not necessarily about the rings themselves, but hey, "there are elf-lords
here"! Though it is possible that he did indeed know. Or, at least suspected.
Think about it; If Denethor knew the whereabouts of the three, why didn't he
tell his people?
To save his own skin- not even for spite would he go as far as to put the
safety of his future stewardom in jeopardy.
Why didn't he tell his father?
Because, since "Thorongil" *seemed* to take the place of a son in
Ecthelion's eyes (at least to Denethor) he suspected that it wouldn't be
plausible.
Why didn't he tell THORONGIL?
Because the last thing he wanted to do was put him in any powerful
position. So he might have known.
No wonder he aged so prematurely.
-Mithrigil
Garrett Schrems
Michael Martinez wrote:
> No. At least, the guards' emblems didn't include the seven stars (which, so
> far as I know, can only be used by Elendil or his heir, the High King -- and
> after Isildur departed there WERE no High Kings in Gondor). The index is not
> entirely clear on the issue, however. On the one hand, it says the seven
> stars were the symbol of Elendil and his captains; but it also says in Gondor
> the seven stars were set about a white tree, and over all the Kings put the
> winged crown.
Just want to point out that in "The Council of Elrond" it states in reference to the two
kingdoms of the Numenoreans after the fall of Isildur:
"But in the wearing of the swift years of Middle-earth the line of Meneldil son of
Anarion failed, and the Tree withered, and the blood of the Numenoreans became mingled with
that of lesser men."
I believe this implies that there was a high king of pure Numenoean blood after the
fall of Isildur.
Michael Martinez
Not in Gondor. The High Kings were all in Arnor.
Garrett Schrems
David Salo
Note about the emblems borne by the Guards of the Citadel:
"Upon the black surcoats were embroidered in white a tree blossoming
like snow beneath a silver crown and many-pointed stars."
1) a tree: "a White Tree, and that was for Gondor"
2) a silver crown: "and a high crown above it"
3) many-pointed stars: "Seven Stars were about it"
Nothing missing here.
DS
Andomar
> was any possibility of a conflict with Aragorn. Or else Denethor
> would have had to accept Aragorn wholeheartedly. But then we would
> have lost the drama of Aragorn being known as general and healer
> before he was acclaimed as King.
>
cause was lost (in his opinion) did he commit suicide. He
"failed the test" and gave up his faith in the West.
But after the war was won, his faith would have been
restored. The undoubtedly best course was to acknowledge
Aragorn's claim. I think Denethor would have done that.
Gratefullness for Faramir's healing, and the general feeling
of the populace, would only help with that.
Robert S. Coren
Andomar <and...@brotherrobot.org> wrote:
>> So I think Tolkien *had* to get Denethor out of the way before there
>> was any possibility of a conflict with Aragorn. Or else Denethor
>> would have had to accept Aragorn wholeheartedly. But then we would
>> have lost the drama of Aragorn being known as general and healer
>> before he was acclaimed as King.
>>
>Denethor always acted in Gondor's best interest. Only when its
>cause was lost (in his opinion) did he commit suicide. He
>"failed the test" and gave up his faith in the West.
Denethor always acted in what he *perceived* to be Gondor's best
interest. In the state of his mind by the time we meet him in LotR, he
might well have been unable to conceive of a "best interest" for
Gondor that included his handing authority over to anyone.
>But after the war was won, his faith would have been
>restored.
We can only hope so. Tolkien avoided having to address this
possibility by killing him off.
--
-------Robert Coren (co...@spdcc.com)-------------------------
"Aric has a booming voice like yours -- and a lot less discretion."
--Mike Thomas to me, on the subject of disturbing the neighbors
Michael Martinez
>Michael Martinez wrote:
>>
>> Not in Gondor. The High Kings were all in Arnor.
>
Then you're not looking very hard. Try Appendix A to THE LORD OF THE RINGS,
the section titled "The North-kingdom and the Dunedain":
After Elendil and Isildur there were eight High Kings of Arnor.
After Earendur, owing to dissensions among his sons their realm
was divided into three: Arthedain, Rhudaur, and Cardolan....
The next section, titled "Gondor and the Heirs of Anarion", begins with:
There were thirty-one kings in Gondor after Anarion who was slain
before the Barad-dur....
No High Kings.
Michael Martinez
Well, since David didn't bother to say where that passage came from, I'll
point out the source:
The Guards of the gate were robed in black, and their helms were of
strange shape, high-crowned, with long cheek-guards close-fitting to
the face, and above the cheek-guards were set the white wings of
sea-birds; but the helms gleamed with a flame of silver, for they
were indeed wrought of mithril, heirlooms from the glory of old days.
Upon the black surcoats were embroidered in white a tree blossoming
like snow beneath a silver crown and many-pointed stars. This was the
livery of the heirs of Elendil, and none wore it now in all Gondor,
save the Guards of the Citadel before the Court of the Fountain where
the White Tree once had grown.
(From "Minas Tirith" in THE RETURN OF THE KING)
The passage looks *vaguely* familiar. :)
Anyway, we sit corrected, and I'll be more leery of relying on the index as a
quick reference in the future.
watkins julia k
>As an exercise in the literary imagination, I present an alternative.
>Supposing Denethor survived the Ring, and was released from the domination
>of Sauron, under which he had fallen via his use of the Palantir. I would
>think it most likely that out of penitence he would have handed over his
>stewardship in a redemption scene of sorts, where he promises to live out
>his remaining days healing the hurts he allowed while under Sauron's
>domination. Or, if we prefer to have Denethor remain alive but unwilling to
>relinquish the stewardship, then I think Tolkien would have, if he choose
>that much, would have had Aragorn return to the North Kingdom and set that
>in order, and upon the Death of Denethor, Faramir would have called Aragorn
>back and asked him to take up his kingship of both the north and the south
>kingdoms at that time.
> I prefer either alternative to things getting 'ugly' ;)
I've posted about this on a previous thread, but in earlier drafts,
Denethor did not commit suicide or try to kill Faramir. Here's the
relevant plot summary from HoME (v. 8, p. 360):
"By evening of 15th [in pencil > 14] in a bloodred sun victory is complete.
All enemy is driven into or back over Anduin. Aragorn sets up his pavilion
and standard outside gate, but will not enter city, yet. Denethor comes
down to greet the victors. ...
"Words of Aragorn and Denethor. Denethor will not yield Stewardship,
yet: not until war is won or lost and all is made clear. He is cold and
suspicious and ? mock-courteous. Aragorn grave and silent. But Denethor
says that belike the Stewardship will run out anyway, since he seems like
to lose both his sons. Faramir is sick of his wounds. If he dies then
Gondor can take what new lord it likes. Aragorn says he will not be
'taken', he will take, but asks to see Faramir. ..."
ERK1030
is always a "vote" winner.
But dont forget the whole "healing" shtick. The lore may have been forgotten by
the Houses of healing in Gondor, but there probably were still some people
around who had heard of the power that athelas had in the hands of the heirs of
Elendil. (thus spake Ioreth, maybe?)
Would athelas have a modern equivalent? (Mithril/Titanium, Pipeweed/Tobacco,
etc?)
-Mithrigil
ERK1030
from the north. He may or may not have recognized him as his old
rival "Thorongil".
Source- RotK, chapter VII;
'Even were his claim proved to me, still he comes but from the line of
Isildur'
Believe me, he knew.
-Mithrigil
Jon Meltzer
>
>Would athelas have a modern equivalent? (Mithril/Titanium, Pipeweed/Tobacco,
>etc?)
>
PaulB
>David Salo writes:
> The banner Aragorn unfurled was that of Elendil:
>>>>
>>>> "...and behold! upon the foremost ship a great standard broke, and the
>wind
>>>> displayed it as she turned towards the Harlond. There flowered a White
>>>>Tree, and that was for Gondor; but Seven Stars were about it, and a high
>>>>crown above it, the signs of Elendil that no lord had borne for years
>>>>beyond count."
I'm note sur who wrote:
>>> These are exactly the same signs as are borne by the Guards of the
>>>Citadel, representing the Anarionid kings of Gondor: the Anarioni evidently
>>>also counted themselves as heirs of Elendil, as far as Gondor was
>>>concerned! But if the White Tree was "for Gondor", then I presume that
>>>Elendil would _not_ have used it in his court in Annúminas.
>>
1. If the Tree was for Gondor, and the Stars and the crown were for Elendil,
what was for Ilsidur?
2. The tree that is for Gondor is not out of place in Elendil's sigil, if we
consider Elendil was High King of Arnor and Gondor, and therefore some marking
denoting the southern kingdom would be appropriate in his court.
3. Given that no _separate_ sigil was given as representing Ilsidur separate
from his father, we may be able to logically conclude that Ilsidur inherited
_all_ that was his father's, and therefore that High Kingship was passed down
to Ilsidur, rather than a partitioning of the two kingdoms after the death of
Elendil, i.e. therefore ergo thus!:
Aragorn as Ilsidur's heir gets the whole kit and caboodle.
Or at least that's what that coniving elf-wench Arwen was trying to convince us
all to believe. Hey, who but Saruman and, once or twice, that meddler
Mithrandir ever read all those old musty papers from so long ago, and the Grey
Pilgrim was already recruited to the winning side. The _real_ conspiracy is
finally unmasked!
PB
"Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that
die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal
out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends." -JRRT
Michael Martinez
>3. Given that no _separate_ sigil was given as representing Ilsidur separate
>from his father, we may be able to logically conclude that Ilsidur inherited
>_all_ that was his father's, and therefore that High Kingship was passed down
>to Ilsidur, rather than a partitioning of the two kingdoms after the death of
>Elendil, i.e. therefore ergo thus!:
>
>Aragorn as Ilsidur's heir gets the whole kit and caboodle.
No. The High Kingship ended with Earendur, tenth High King of Arnor (his
three sons divided Arnor into three smaller kingdoms). Aragorn couldn't
inherit it from him. His claim was based on his being the Heir of Elendil,
not the Heir of isildur. Isildur's emblem was the rising moon and Anarion's
emblem was the setting sun. These were, apparently, personal heraldic devices
and not used by their houses.
Thorsten Michels
>In article <389243A5...@geocities.com>, Garrett Schrems <jung...@geocities.com> wrote:
>>Michael Martinez wrote:
>>>
>>> Not in Gondor. The High Kings were all in Arnor.
>>
>>What's your source. I don't see that restriction writen anywhere.
>
>Then you're not looking very hard. Try Appendix A to THE LORD OF THE RINGS,
>the section titled "The North-kingdom and the Dunedain":
>
> After Elendil and Isildur there were eight High Kings of Arnor.
> After Earendur, owing to dissensions among his sons their realm
> was divided into three: Arthedain, Rhudaur, and Cardolan....
>
>The next section, titled "Gondor and the Heirs of Anarion", begins with:
>
> There were thirty-one kings in Gondor after Anarion who was slain
> before the Barad-dur....
>
>No High Kings.
Perhaps the "High King" refers only to complete Arnor as opposed to
a king of Arthedain, Cardolan or Rhudaur.
Thorsten
--
Thorsten Michels One's never alone with a rubber duck.
mic...@informatik.uni-kl.de Douglas Adams
DrNethack on #awg
"Ich mag meine Probleme." Ally McBeal
PaulB
Martinez) writes:
>No. The High Kingship ended with Earendur, tenth High King of Arnor (his
>three sons divided Arnor into three smaller kingdoms). Aragorn couldn't
>inherit it from him. His claim was based on his being the Heir of Elendil,
>not the Heir of isildur. Isildur's emblem was the rising moon and Anarion's
>emblem was the setting sun. These were, apparently, personal heraldic
>devices
>and not used by their houses.
>
>
I forgot about that, but still, as the only surviving heir in any of the three
lines, (that I'm aware of) wouldn't he inheirit each on an individual basis?
this would consolidate the Northern title again.
As for his claim being based on the grounds that he is the Heir of Elendil, I'm
not disputing that, in fact, that was my purpose in pointing out that there is
no _separate_ Arnorian or Ilsidurian sigil on the banner. Furthurmore, even
though the Kingdom of Arnor was divided, certain rights of "High Kingship,"
including suzerainity over Gondor, might have been preserved in fact, if not in
practice, by the eldest line. If the division of Arnor did in fact eliminate
certain prerogatives and rights of the High King, then I would think that
Denethor would be perfectly justified in his dismisal of Aragorns claim. As,
IMO, I think Tolkien believed the claimed to be true and correct, and not just
a convienient way to grab power and develop a plot for the story, I think that
those rights went unexercised for lack of power to enforce them, rather than
disappearing altogether.
BTW, point taken on the Moon and Sun symbols for Ilsidur and Anarion. My fault
for using _Ilsidur / Anarion_ interchangably with _Arnor / Gondor_, there was
still no specific, solely Northern emblem on the banner, whereas there was one
for Gondor.
But I still think it was a plot by that grasping elven wench, who wanted to
consolidate power even further by uniting the two branches of Earendil's line.
Robert S. Coren
Thorsten Michels <mic...@osiris.informatik.uni-kl.de> wrote:
>In article <86v7d3$17s...@news.uswest.net>, Michael Martinez wrote:
>>In article <389243A5...@geocities.com>, Garrett Schrems <jung...@geocities.com> wrote:
>>>Michael Martinez wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Not in Gondor. The High Kings were all in Arnor.
>>>
>>>What's your source. I don't see that restriction writen anywhere.
>>
>>Then you're not looking very hard. Try Appendix A to THE LORD OF THE RINGS,
>>the section titled "The North-kingdom and the Dunedain":
>>
>> After Elendil and Isildur there were eight High Kings of Arnor.
>> After Earendur, owing to dissensions among his sons their realm
>> was divided into three: Arthedain, Rhudaur, and Cardolan....
>>
>>The next section, titled "Gondor and the Heirs of Anarion", begins with:
>>
>> There were thirty-one kings in Gondor after Anarion who was slain
>> before the Barad-dur....
>>
>>No High Kings.
>
>Perhaps the "High King" refers only to complete Arnor as opposed to
>a king of Arthedain, Cardolan or Rhudaur.
More likely it refers to supreme ruler over both Arnor and Gondor,
although it's not clear what practical authority if any the High King
actually had over Gondor while based in Arnor.
--
-------Robert Coren (co...@spdcc.com)-------------------------
"Similar economies might be effected in nature if lions could be
converted to vegetarianism." -- Donald Tovey [on the possibility of
peace between the followers of Brahms and Wagner/Liszt]
David Salo
pbac...@aol.comnojunk (PaulB) wrote:
> "...and behold! upon the foremost ship a great standard broke, and the wind
> displayed it as she turned towards the Harlond. There flowered a White
> Tree, and that was for Gondor; but Seven Stars were about it, and a high
> crown above it, the signs of Elendil that no lord had borne for years
> beyond count."
>
> I'm note sur who wrote:
> >>> These are exactly the same signs as are borne by the Guards of the
> >>>Citadel, representing the Anarionid kings of Gondor: the Anarioni evidently
> >>>also counted themselves as heirs of Elendil, as far as Gondor was
> >>>concerned! But if the White Tree was "for Gondor", then I presume that
> >>>Elendil would _not_ have used it in his court in Annúminas.
> >>
> 1. If the Tree was for Gondor, and the Stars and the crown were for Elendil,
> what was for Isildur?
The Tree was for Isildur, because Isildur was King of Gondor. The
crown was also for Isildur (it was Isildur's own helmet that was
represented, see below).
> 2. The tree that is for Gondor is not out of place in Elendil's sigil, if we
> consider Elendil was High King of Arnor and Gondor, and therefore some marking
> denoting the southern kingdom would be appropriate in his court.
The point is that all these emblems, including the tree and the stars,
are found on the surcoats of the Citadel Guard, based upon the emblems of
the Anarionid kings. That means they can't represent Elendil and his
direct line solely, but only his family in a general sense; or they could
not have been used by the house of Anarion, which was a cadet branch.
The flag Aragorn displays is the royal banner of Gondor, equivalent to
the Queen of England's three leopards. I don't think there are any emblems
on it that are specific to Arnor.
The White Tree is evidently specific to Gondor; there was no tree in
Annuminas or Fornost Erain.
The Crown was also specific to Gondor and was _not_ Elendil's crown; in
fact, it doesn't seem that Elendil wore a crown. See Appendix A, p. 323:
"Arnor, whose kings wore no crown..."; "The crown of Gondor was derived
from the formn of a Numenorean war-helm. In the beginning it was indeed a
plain helm; and it is said to have been the one that Isildur wore in the
Battle of Dagorlad (for the helm of Anarion was crushed by the stone-cast
from Barad-dur that slew him). But in the days of Atanatar Alcarin this
was replaced by the jewelled helm that was used in the crowning of
Aragorn." This helm is depicted in Letters, p. 281, and also on the
bookcover design Tolkien made for The Return of the King, where it is
associated with the Tree and Stars. I don't see how it could have been a
royal symbol during Elendil's lifetime, so I must suppose that the
suggestion that it was a "sign of Elendil" was a mistake. Perhaps
"Elendil" in this instance only stands for "Elendil's house" (including the
lines of both his sons).
The Stars are the only really general symbol, and they represent
(rather cryptically) both the ships that bore Elendil and his sons to
Middle-earth, and also the Palantiri. So probably the stars were on
whatever royal banner was found in Arnor, but the other emblems were not.
The Return of the King, Index, p. 440: "in Gondor the seven stars were set
about a white-flowered tree, over which the Kings set a winged crown."
I would guess, without any great certainty, that the Arnorian emblem was
the Star of Earendil, since the royal diadem, the Elendilmir or Star of
Elendil, was supposed to represent that Star: perhaps the Star of Earendil
surrounded by seven stars? I would find that an attractive design.
So I would say:
Seven Stars: = Elendil
Star of Elendil/Star of Earendil = Arnor (Elendil)
Winged Crown = Gondor (Isildur)
White Tree = Gondor (Isildur, Anarion; "the seedling which he saved
Isildur planted in the citadel of Anor (sc. Minas Tirith) in memory of his
brother")
And so the banner Aragorn displays is, I think, a very emphatic claim,
not to the High Kingdom, but to the kingdom of Gondor in particular.
Probably Arwen made it that way in order to kick Aragorn's rear into a
position where he couldn't avoid a confrontation! If he'd wanted a more
neutral or general claim, he would have needed a banner with only the seven
stars on it.
David Salo
rmspageme
> idealistic, when Frodo said "Then it belongs to yu, and not to me at
all!",
> Aragorn would have said "That's right. Hand it over, Halfling!" When
you
> have the Ruling Ring, arguments like the above simply do not occur.
Giggling belly laughs... except that, of course, the Ruling Ring would
have tempted and corrupted Aragorn. Those halflings are made of sterner
stuff. :)
Robert Sweeney
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
ERK1030
>if Aragorn had been more practical and less
idealistic, when Frodo said "Then it belongs to yOu, and not to me at all!",
Aragorn would have said "That's right. Hand it over, Halfling!" When
you have the Ruling Ring, arguments like the above simply do not occur.
Why don't we continue that a little....
Frodo; Then it belongs to you, and not to me at all!!
Aragorn; It is indeed so. So if you will, Frodo.. (puts ot his hand to recieve
the ring..)
Boromir; (interrupting, and grabbing the ring in the process) Hold on a
second!! (to Frodo) You'e giving it to HIM? (to Aragorn) And what do you
propose to do with it?
Aragorn; I'm not going to USE it. I'll just hold on to it for a while. (to
Frodo) You can go back to the Shire.
(Elrond, Glorfindel, and Gandalf glare at him)
Aragorn; Oh all right! Would you rather it go to the big, strong, war-monger
who would use it in two seconds flat and betray us all?!
(They subside. Boromir reacts;)
Boromir; It wouldn't betray us!! It would strengthen our armies and allow us to
overcome...
Gloin; (interrupting) You've taken one too many hits on the battlefield,
Boromir. You said you came here for wisdom, not weapons, and that is what
you'll get. (Boromir rolls his eyes, sits down, and shuts up) Besides, it
should go to a dwarf anyway. How about my son Gimli here!
(Everyone present gives him an evil look, including Gimli)
Elrond; Your people had your chance with rings of power, and you failed.
Boromir; That's right!!
Elrond; (shifting focus for a millisecond) Don't even let me get started on
you!! (back to Gloin) Why don't we let the Halfling handle it?
Gloin; Because....well....just look at HIM (points to Bilbo, asleep). Look what
the ring did to him! He's become a lump!!!
Frodo; Look, can I have my ring back please?
Gandalf; It isn't yours and you know it.
Aragorn; That's right. It's mine.
Gandalf;(to Aragorn) Would you rather go out and hunt for Gollum? Because if
you keep holding forth about it being "your's", I am going to blast you to
Cirith Ungol, broken sword and all!!
Aragorn; Mithrandir....
Gandalf; And don't think I don't know the reason you want to be here in the
first place, Mr. I-want-to-be-Beren-in-more-ways-than-one!!! Where were you
last night?
Aragorn; You take that back!!! My intentions are perfectly honorable!!! (Elrond
looks at him darkly) Don't worry. I was with your sons....
Glorfindel; Yeah, I'll bet.
Aragorn; (after a glare at Glorfindel)....until I saw her in the Hall of
Fire.(to Elrond) You're a witness.
Elrond; That is true.(to Gandalf) And will you leave my daughter out of this?
Gandalf; Oh, fine.
(Awkward pause #1)
Frodo; (trying not to sound whiney) Can I *please* have my ring back??
Gloin; Didn't you hear the wizard say it isn't yours?
Aragorn; That's right, it's...(Gandalf raises his staff)...none of ours. (to
Boromir) So give it here!!
Boromir; No.
Elrond; Listen to your elders....
Boromir; Right. (to Aragorn) And just how old are you, Dunadan?
Aragorn; Over twice your age, Boromir.
(Boromir looks at Elrond, who nods)
Aragorn; Actually, I believe I'm older than your father....
(Elrond and Gandalf both nod)
Boromir; Oh.
(Awkward pause #2)
Frodo; (still trying no to whine) Umm, the ring? Please?
Glorfindel; You're wounded. Shut up.
(Awkward pause #3)
Boromir; So, who is the oldest one here?
(Elrond and Gandalf point at eachother)
Boromir; Right....
Glorfindel; That remind's me; Bombadil really should be here.
Elrond; I don't think so.
Glorfindel; And why not?
Elrond; The hobbits already spoke to him. He's too busy with his precious
Goldberry to do a thing about the ring.
Frodo; And speaking of the ring...
Glorfindel; (ignoring Frodo) People are allowed to love their wives, Master
Elrond. You may be one of the most powerful people in Middle-earth, but that
doesn't give you the right to criticize people for no good reason!
Elrond; There is a good reason....
Glorfindel; Right. Your wife left early! No small wonder you're so protective
of your daughter!!
Elrond; Can we leave my daughter out of this?!
Glorfindel; You're just jealous of Bombadil!! Imagine that!! The most powerful
elf-lord since Thingol jealous of a singing loon who live in an undead-infested
forest!!!
Elrond; OUT!!!!
(Glorfindel leaves- somewhat reluctantly)
(Awkward pause #4)
Aragorn; (quietly) I knew that was the reason.
Gandalf; Like heck you did.
Elrond; (frustrated and embarassed) Shut up, Mithrandir!!
Frodo; (this time actually whining) Can I PLEASE have the ring back?
(everyone looks at him- they almost forgot in all the confusion...)
Boromir; Ask nicely.
----------------END OF SCENE-----------------
It IS possible.....
-Mithrigil
***notice that Legolas did absolutely NOTHING throughout the scene***
Michael Martinez
>More likely it refers to supreme ruler over both Arnor and Gondor,
>although it's not clear what practical authority if any the High King
>actually had over Gondor while based in Arnor.
The Last Alliance was forged between Elendil and Gil-galad, not between
Elendil, Gil-galad, and the kings of Gondor. The power and authority of the
High Kings probably didn't amount to much after Isildur's death, but they
still inherited the title.
Michael Martinez
>In article <87351v$2b4...@news.uswest.net>, Mic...@xenite.org (Michael
>Martinez) writes:
>
>>No. The High Kingship ended with Earendur, tenth High King of Arnor (his
>>three sons divided Arnor into three smaller kingdoms). Aragorn couldn't
>>inherit it from him. His claim was based on his being the Heir of Elendil,
>>not the Heir of isildur. Isildur's emblem was the rising moon and Anarion's
>>emblem was the setting sun. These were, apparently, personal heraldic
>>devices and not used by their houses.
>>
>>
>I forgot about that, but still, as the only surviving heir in any of the three
>lines, (that I'm aware of) wouldn't he inheirit each on an individual basis?
>this would consolidate the Northern title again.
Aragorn was not a king. He was simply the chieftain of the Dunedain of the
North. As Elendil's Heir he was eligible to claim the crown of Gondor. That
doesn't mean he was entitled to it as an inheritance. As the Heir of Isildur,
he had no claim to Gondor's crown. The Line of Isildur had been rejected.
That one cannot be an Heir of Isildur without being an Heir of Elendil may
seem trivial, but Tolkien apparently felt it encumbered the claimants enough
that he had Aragorn emphasize his relationship to Elendil rather than Isildur.
This is all ultimately of Tolkien's contrivance, and I think it's a statement
about the Numenoreans' fascination or devotion to tradition and custom. They
had painted themselves into a corner, so-to-speak, by letting the High
Kingship pass, the kingship over Arthedain/Arnor decline, and rejecting the
claim of the Heirs of Isildur. To restore the kingship required an
exceptional claim, and Aragorn met only part of the criteria by virtue of his
birth. He still had to show that he could lead Gondor to victory in war.
Jonas Thorell
[little snip]
Damn funny but I feel I have to nitpick anyway...
> Boromir; So, who is the oldest one here?
> (Elrond and Gandalf point at eachother)
Shouldn't that be Glorfindel and Gandalf...
/Jonas
CHUCK BRAMLET
He knew Aragorn was a Ranger. He knew Aragorn was the heir of Isuldur.
I'm not convinced that he knew that Aragorn and Thorongil were the
same person.
--
ERK1030
>> Boromir; So, who is the oldest one here?
>
>> (Elrond and Gandalf point at eachother)
>
>Shouldn't that be Glorfindel and Gandalf...
According to the Silmarillion, the first Glorfindel died in the Fall of
Gondolin.
According to Robert Foster's *Complete Guide to Middle-earth* The second
Glorfindel (the one present at the Council) Was born in TA 1975.
Elrond was around since the First age.
-Mithrigil
Russ
(ERK1030) writes:
>According to the Silmarillion, the first Glorfindel died in the Fall of
>Gondolin.
>According to Robert Foster's *Complete Guide to Middle-earth* The second
>Glorfindel (the one present at the Council) Was born in TA 1975.
>
>Elrond was around since the First age.
The complete guide is wrong. Tolkien decided that the Glorfindel's were the
same. He was reembodied in Aman then sent over the Sea to help out in the wars
with Sauron.
Russ
Russ
julia k) writes:
>I've posted about this on a previous thread, but in earlier drafts,
>Denethor did not commit suicide or try to kill Faramir. Here's the
>relevant plot summary from HoME (v. 8, p. 360):
>
>"By evening of 15th [in pencil > 14] in a bloodred sun victory is complete.
>All enemy is driven into or back over Anduin. Aragorn sets up his pavilion
>and standard outside gate, but will not enter city, yet. Denethor comes
>down to greet the victors. ...
> "Words of Aragorn and Denethor. Denethor will not yield Stewardship,
>yet: not until war is won or lost and all is made clear. He is cold and
>suspicious and ? mock-courteous. Aragorn grave and silent. But Denethor
>says that belike the Stewardship will run out anyway, since he seems like
>to lose both his sons. Faramir is sick of his wounds. If he dies then
>Gondor can take what new lord it likes. Aragorn says he will not be
>'taken', he will take, but asks to see Faramir. ..."
>
>
Last sentence is interesting. Aragorn's words imply that he doesn't need to
"win" the crown. It is his by right and he will take it and not "be taken" by
Gondor.
Russ
Jonas Thorell
>>> (Elrond and Gandalf point at eachother)
>>Shouldn't that be Glorfindel and Gandalf...
> According to the Silmarillion, the first Glorfindel died in the Fall of
> Gondolin. According to Robert Foster's *Complete Guide to Middle-earth*
> The second Glorfindel (the one present at the Council) Was born in TA
> 1975.
I was under the impression that it was the same Glorfindel that had returned
from the halls of Mandos. Of course, even if so it doesn't rule out that
Elrond would count as the elder one due to him never have been to
Mandos.
/Jonas
Conrad Dunkerson
news:20000131234733...@ng-cd1.aol.com...
> Aragorn; Actually, I believe I'm older than your father....
> (Elrond and Gandalf both nod)
> Boromir; Oh.
Annoying nit-pick number two, Aragorn was one year younger than
Denethor.
David L.
Michael Martinez <Mic...@xenite.org> wrote in message
news:875usi$d0_...@news.uswest.net...
I'm surprised to see you write this, you have it backwards. Aragorn had the
"right" to the throne of Gondor but he did not have the strength to "claim"
it.
Isn't is an oversimplification to say Aragorn "was simply the chieftain of
the Dunedain"? The Chieftain was a "king" who had been deprived of his
realm! And not merely any king, THE King, the High King of all the
Dunedain.
Arvedui and his predecessors claimed the High Kingship over all the
Dunedain, a claim which does not seem to have been disputed by Gondor. What
was disputed was Arvedui's right to rule Gondor himself.
When Arvedui's realm was destroyed Aranarth did the only thing he could
(since his kin in the South rejected his, and his father's claim), he went
underground to regroup to nurse the failing strength of the Dunedain in the
North. He was the eldest male descendent of Elendil in unbroken descent from
father to son. He and his descendants had the "right" to the throne of
Gondor but they didn't have the strength or the opportunity to claim it.
The opportunity didn't arrive until Aragorn was victorious at the Pelannor
Fields. He still didn't have the military might to press his claim, but he
had won the hearts and minds of the people of Minas Tirith and was popularly
acclaimed.
Dave
Michael Martinez
>In article <20000201161747...@ng-ff1.aol.com>, erk...@aol.com
>(ERK1030) writes:
>
>>Gondolin.
>>According to Robert Foster's *Complete Guide to Middle-earth* The second
>>Glorfindel (the one present at the Council) Was born in TA 1975.
>>
>
>The complete guide is wrong. Tolkien decided that the Glorfindel's were the
>same. He was reembodied in Aman then sent over the Sea to help out in the wars
>with Sauron.
The COMPLETE GUIDE is correct, as far as it goes. The entry merely indicates
that Glorfindel (the second) "flourished" from TA 1975 onward -- meaning that
he occurs in the histories only from that year onward.
Foster's only speculations concerning the two Glorfindels are that they are
probably descended from Finarfin.
Michael Martinez
They imply quite the opposite to me.
Michael Martinez
>Michael Martinez <Mic...@xenite.org> wrote in message
>news:875usi$d0_...@news.uswest.net...
>> of the North. As Elendil's Heir he was eligible to claim the crown
>> of Gondor. That doesn't mean he was entitled to it as an inheritance.
>> As the Heir of Isildur, he had no claim to Gondor's crown. The Line
>> of Isildur had been rejected. That one cannot be an Heir of Isildur
>> without being an Heir of Elendil may seem trivial, but Tolkien apparently
>> felt it encumbered the claimants enough that he had Aragorn emphasize
>> his relationship to Elendil rather than Isildur.
>>
>> This is all ultimately of Tolkien's contrivance, and I think it's a
>> statement about the Numenoreans' fascination or devotion to tradition
>> and custom. They had painted themselves into a corner, so-to-speak,
>> by letting the High Kingship pass, the kingship over Arthedain/Arnor
>> decline, and rejecting the claim of the Heirs of Isildur. To restore
>> the kingship required an exceptional claim, and Aragorn met only part
>> of the criteria by virtue of his birth. He still had to show that he
>> could lead Gondor to victory in war.
>>
>
>
>I'm surprised to see you write this, you have it backwards. Aragorn had the
>"right" to the throne of Gondor but he did not have the strength to "claim"
>it.
No, he did not have the "right" to the throne of Gondor. Had he had the
"right", he wouldn't have had to depend on the good will of the people to
acclaim him king.
>Isn't is an oversimplification to say Aragorn "was simply the chieftain of
>the Dunedain"?...
No. That's what his title was, such as he had inherited from Aranarth.
>...The Chieftain was a "king" who had been deprived of his
>realm! And not merely any king, THE King, the High King of all the
>Dunedain.
No one deprived Aranarth of his realm. He took up the title "Chieftain of the
Dunedain" (see "The Northern Line, Heirs of Isildur" and "Eriador, Arnor, and
the Heirs of Isildur" in Appendix A and the entry for the year TA 1976 in
Appendix B). And Earendur was the last High King (see "The Heirs of Isildur"
in Appendix A and "Eriador, Arnor, and the Heirs of Isildur" again).
>Arvedui and his predecessors claimed the High Kingship over all the
>Dunedain, a claim which does not seem to have been disputed by Gondor. What
>was disputed was Arvedui's right to rule Gondor himself.
You're confused. Appendix A says:
In the days of Argeleb son of Malvegil, since no descendants of
Isildur remained in the other kingdoms, the kings of Arthedain
again claimed the lordship of all Arnor. The claim was resisted
by Rhudaur. There the Dunedain were few, and power had been
seized by an evil lord of the Hill-men, who was in secret league
with Angmar. Argeleb therefore fortified the Weather Hills; but
he was slain in battle with Rhudaur and Angmar.
All they claimed was lordship over Arnor. They did not claim to be High
Kings.
Aranarth did not go "underground". He simply decided he couldn't restore the
kingdom.
ERK1030
>Annoying nit-pick number two, Aragorn was one year younger than
>Denethor.
Aragorn- Born TA 2931, Died FO 120
Denethor- Born TA 2930, Died TA 3019
I apologize.
-Mithrigil
ERK1030
>>from the north. He may or may not have recognized him as his old
>>rival "Thorongil".
>>
>>Source- RotK, chapter VII;
>> 'Even were his claim proved to me, still he comes but from the line of
>>Isildur'
>>
>>Believe me, he knew.
>
>He knew Aragorn was a Ranger. He knew Aragorn was the heir of Isuldur.
>I'm not convinced that he knew that Aragorn and Thorongil were the
>same person.
He knew that Thorongil was the heir of Isildur. Common logic.
Thorongil=Heir of Isildur
Heir of Isildur=Ranger from north
Ranger from north=Aragorn
Therefore
Thorongil=Aragorn.
I don't usually explain things the "left-brained" way, but this time it works.
-Mithrigil
Michael Martinez
>
>He knew that Thorongil was the heir of Isildur. Common logic.
How did Denethor know this?
Tolkien only says that other people came to believe Denethor had discovered
who Thorongil was. He by no means states as fact that Denethor did know
anything about Thorongil.
David L.
Rights are not necessarily conferred automatically. Auto insurance companies
have the obligation to pay policy holders for damaged vehicles, but they
won't until a claim is made.
The US Constitution acknowledges that all men are created equal and yet
there were slaves in this country until it was popularly condemned. Correct
me if I'm wrong but don't kings have to have the ceremonial acclaim of the
people, or the peoples representatives, before they can be invested as the
king?
> >Isn't is an oversimplification to say Aragorn "was simply the chieftain
of
> >the Dunedain"?...
>
> No. That's what his title was, such as he had inherited from Aranarth.
True he was the Chieftain but that doesn't exclude other titles. He was
also the Heir of Isildur with all the inherent rights that go with the
title. In part IV, section 3 of _Unfinished Tales_ Aragorn is
legitimately able to claim the palantir of Orthanc, before he was crowned,
"since it was now, for the time being, without owner or warden; and also
because he was _de jure_ the rightful King of both Gondor and Arnor, and
could, if he willed, for just cause withdraw all previous grants to
himself". Aragorn and all the chieftains before him were the rightful king,
but they didn't possess the strength to press their claim to the title.
Rights already must exist before a claim can be made.
You are right, they did not claim the high kingship. I should have looked at
the passage before I paraphrased it to bolster my argument.
> Aranarth did not go "underground". He simply decided he couldn't restore
the
> kingdom.
You are correct, he could not restore his fathers kingdom, but that doesn't
mean that they relinquished their claim. But _Of the Rings of Power_ says:
At length naught was left of them [the Dunedain of the North]
but a strange people wandering secretly in the wild, and other
men new not their homes nor the purpose of their journeys,
and save in Imladris, in the house of Elrond their ancestry was
forgotten.
The word "underground" might not be used but the meaning is present
nonetheless, the Rangers went into hiding. What was the purpose of their
journeys? To conduct an underground war against the servants of the Enemy.
Dave
David Salo
King, which title I don't believe is used at all by Aragorn. (His title in
the official court document given in the Epilogue (Sauron Defeated pp.
128-9) is _Elessar Telcontar, Aragorn Arathornion Edhelharn aran Gondor ar
Arnor ar Hi^r i-mBair Annui_: Elessar Strider, Aragorn son of Arathorn,
Elfstone, King of Gondor and of Arnor and Lord of the Westlands.) He made
this claim by displaying the royal standard of Gondor, with its
particularly Gondorian emblems. I believe he does so as descendant of
Isildur particularly, but whether you suppose he does so as heir of Isildur
king of Gondor, or heir of Elendil titular head of the house of Gondor, is
pretty much academic. However, if Aragorn had it pointed out to him that
the Council of Gondor had rejected Arvedui's claim, he would doubtless have
said that the Council was wrong then, and its rejection of the Isildurion
line was still wrong now: for Arvedui's descent from Elendil was of course
as impeccable as his descent from Isildur. Obviously it took some
practical measures, and a good deal of luck, to realize the claim: but
Aragorn would have said that the claim was good whether it could be
realized or no.
When did Aragorn first make his claim within the lands of Gondor? At
Erech, when he unfurled his banner (The Return of the King, p. 63). At
that time his following consisted of a couple of half-elves, one elf, one
dwarf, a bunch of Northern Dunedain, and a whole lot of Dead Men. There
was not a single man of Gondor among them: Aragorn had zero popular
following at that point. Yet he made the claim nonetheless. And when
Eomer said, after the battle of the Pelennor, "Will you suffer these to be
challenged?", Aragorn answered "No." And at that point Aragorn believed
that Denethor was still alive!
David Salo
rmspageme
thought that was his secret Valar name. (Apparently, amoung men they
took and used the names that were given to him.)
> Aragorn; Mithrandir....
Russ
writes:
>He knew Aragorn was a Ranger. He knew Aragorn was the heir of Isuldur.
>I'm not convinced that he knew that Aragorn and Thorongil were the
>same person.
There is a passage somewhere along these lines: "In after days, it was believed
that Denethor knew who Thorongil was." That's a paraphrase. Anyway, it's not
a definitive statement but presented as a hindsight.
Russ
Russ
>He knew that Thorongil was the heir of Isildur. Common logic.
>
>Thorongil=Heir of Isildur
>Heir of Isildur=Ranger from north
>Ranger from north=Aragorn
>
>Therefore
> Thorongil=Aragorn.
Huh? At the time Aragorn was in Gondor as Thorongil, he did not announce
himself. He was there somewhat incognito. I say somewhat because he did wear
the Ranger's badge but it is likely people in Gondor would not know what that
meant. One wise in lore such as Denethor might, however. But at best, that
would only imply that he was a Dunadan, not the heir of Isildur. I suspect
that even regular people knew he was a Dunadan from the North. Aragorn had
that nasty habit of appearing to grow taller and appear like the kings of Men
of old. The Rangers badge would probably have been recognized by some.
Thorongil's "name" was in Sindarin also implying dunedain ancestry.
Thus, I think it would have been general knowledge that Thorongil was dunedain
and probably have known he was from the North. I doubt anyone (other than
Denethor) would have known that Thorongil was an heir of Isildur. Only
Denethor might have perceived this. But it is by no means certain.
Russ
Russ
Martinez) writes:
>>>According to the Silmarillion, the first Glorfindel died in the Fall of
>>>Gondolin.
>>>According to Robert Foster's *Complete Guide to Middle-earth* The second
>>>Glorfindel (the one present at the Council) Was born in TA 1975.
>>>
>>>Elrond was around since the First age.
>>
>>The complete guide is wrong. Tolkien decided that the Glorfindel's were
>the
>>same. He was reembodied in Aman then sent over the Sea to help out in the
>wars
>>with Sauron.
>
>The COMPLETE GUIDE is correct, as far as it goes. The entry merely indicates
>
>that Glorfindel (the second) "flourished" from TA 1975 onward -- meaning that
>
>he occurs in the histories only from that year onward.
>
>Foster's only speculations concerning the two Glorfindels are that they are
>probably descended from Finarfin.
>
The initial quote says that the Complete Guide states that the Glorfindel at
the Council was *born* in TA 1975. From your quote above, it appears the
initial cite I responded to was miscited.
Russ
Russ
Martinez) writes:
<snip>
>If he dies then
>>>Gondor can take what new lord it likes. Aragorn says he will not be
>>>'taken', he will take, but asks to see Faramir. ..."
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Last sentence is interesting. Aragorn's words imply that he doesn't need to
>>"win" the crown. It is his by right and he will take it and not "be taken"
>by
>>Gondor.
>
>They imply quite the opposite to me.
<blink>
Well there you go. Same words, completly opposite interpretation.
Denethor says if he dies, its up to Gondor to decide if they will take Aragorn
as king. In other words, Denethor seems to place the power in the people's
hands.
However, Aragorn's response it that he will not be taken, he will take. In
other words, the crown is his by right and that he doesn't have to rely on
Gondor taking him. Rather, he will take. So Aragorn's view appears to be that
the crown is his to take, not Gondor's to offer.
Russ
Russ
Martinez) writes:
<snip>
>>I'm surprised to see you write this, you have it backwards. Aragorn had the
>>"right" to the throne of Gondor but he did not have the strength to "claim"
>>it.
>
>No, he did not have the "right" to the throne of Gondor. Had he had the
>"right", he wouldn't have had to depend on the good will of the people to
>acclaim him king.
He didn't appear to need it. Putting aside our differing interpretation of the
early drafts of the dialogue between Denethor and Aragorn in the rejected plot
line, both Faramir and Imrahil acknowledged Aragorn as king (and liegelord)
well before any popular acclamation by the people.
<snip>
Russ
Russ
(David Salo) writes:
> Aragorn II claimed the right to be King of Gondor, not generally High
>King, which title I don't believe is used at all by Aragorn. (His title in
>the official court document given in the Epilogue (Sauron Defeated pp.
>128-9) is _Elessar Telcontar, Aragorn Arathornion Edhelharn aran Gondor ar
>Arnor ar Hi^r i-mBair Annui_: Elessar Strider, Aragorn son of Arathorn,
>Elfstone, King of Gondor and of Arnor and Lord of the Westlands.)
Lord of the Westlands has a high kingy sound to it.
> He made
>this claim by displaying the royal standard of Gondor, with its
>particularly Gondorian emblems.
I understand your point, but the banner was stated to be portraying the emblems
of Elendil. Anarion's emblems may very well have been similar or even
identical, but the banner was nevertheless identified specifically with
Elendil. Thus, I would still maintain that he made his claim by displaying the
emblems of Elendil.
> I believe he does so as descendant of
>Isildur particularly, but whether you suppose he does so as heir of Isildur
>king of Gondor, or heir of Elendil titular head of the house of Gondor, is
>pretty much academic. However, if Aragorn had it pointed out to him that
>the Council of Gondor had rejected Arvedui's claim, he would doubtless have
>said that the Council was wrong then, and its rejection of the Isildurion
>line was still wrong now: for Arvedui's descent from Elendil was of course
>as impeccable as his descent from Isildur. Obviously it took some
>practical measures, and a good deal of luck, to realize the claim: but
>Aragorn would have said that the claim was good whether it could be
>realized or no.
It's arguable, as Michael pointed out, that Gondor was correct to reject
Arvedui's claim because there were still male descendants of Anarion. An heir
of Isildur's would only move to the top of the line of succession once
Anarion's line was exhausted. That didn't occur until later.
> When did Aragorn first make his claim within the lands of Gondor? At
>Erech, when he unfurled his banner (The Return of the King, p. 63). At
>that time his following consisted of a couple of half-elves, one elf, one
>dwarf, a bunch of Northern Dunedain, and a whole lot of Dead Men. There
>was not a single man of Gondor among them: Aragorn had zero popular
>following at that point. Yet he made the claim nonetheless. And when
>Eomer said, after the battle of the Pelennor, "Will you suffer these to be
>challenged?", Aragorn answered "No." And at that point Aragorn believed
>that Denethor was still alive!
I agree. I don't think Aragorn's claim (at least in his mind and in the mind of
certain high nobles on the realm) depended on the will of the people. We have
the language in HOME from the rejected plot line in which Aragorn tells Denthor
he will take and not be taken by Gondor. *Denethor* might have believed that
Aragorn's claim depended on his acceptance by the people, but Denethor's view
of things is generally discredited.
Imrahil and Faramir acknowledged Aragorn as king without any assent from the
people. Tolkien wrote it as if they simply acknowledged it as a fact.
Russ
David Salo
(Russ) wrote:
> >If he dies then
> >>>Gondor can take what new lord it likes. Aragorn says he will not be
> >>>'taken', he will take, but asks to see Faramir. ..."
> Denethor says if he dies, its up to Gondor to decide if they will take Aragorn
> as king. In other words, Denethor seems to place the power in the people's
> hands.
>
> However, Aragorn's response it that he will not be taken, he will take. In
> other words, the crown is his by right and that he doesn't have to rely on
> Gondor taking him. Rather, he will take. So Aragorn's view appears to
be that
> the crown is his to take, not Gondor's to offer.
Not only does it appear to be, it actually is (according to the words
quoted); this is not a case where a passage can have two meanings! I'm
aware (as I've said) that some people have extraordinarily poor
understanding of written English, but this passage isn't even slightly
confusing.
DS
Russ
writes:
>Question: Did any of these people actually know Gandalf as Mithrandir, I
>thought that was his secret Valar name. (Apparently, amoung men they
>took and used the names that were given to him.)
>
>> Aragorn; Mithrandir....
His Valinorin name was Olorin, and it wasn't a secret per se. Mithrandir was
simply the Sindarin name given to him by the Elves. I think it means grey
pilgrim or grey wanderer.
Robert S. Coren
Michael Martinez <Mic...@xenite.org> wrote:
>In article <%KLl4.1058$Mt3....@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net>, "David L." <dav...@ameritech.net> wrote:
>>
>>"right" to the throne of Gondor but he did not have the strength to "claim"
>>it.
>
>No, he did not have the "right" to the throne of Gondor. Had he had the
>"right", he wouldn't have had to depend on the good will of the people to
>acclaim him king.
The _de jure_ right wouldn't be particularly useful if the people
didn't want him, given the circumstances.
--
-------Robert Coren (co...@spdcc.com)-------------------------
"The optative passive rocks!" --Jeffrey William McKeough
Robert S. Coren
Russ <mcr...@aol.com> wrote:
>In article <87867g$2i4...@news.uswest.net>, Mic...@xenite.org (Michael
>Martinez) writes:
><snip>
>
>>If he dies then
>>>>Gondor can take what new lord it likes. Aragorn says he will not be
>>>>'taken', he will take, but asks to see Faramir. ..."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>by
>>>Gondor.
>>
>>They imply quite the opposite to me.
>
><blink>
>
>Well there you go. Same words, completly opposite interpretation.
>
>as king. In other words, Denethor seems to place the power in the people's
>hands.
>
>However, Aragorn's response it that he will not be taken, he will take. In
>other words, the crown is his by right and that he doesn't have to rely on
>Gondor taking him. Rather, he will take. So Aragorn's view appears to be that
>the crown is his to take, not Gondor's to offer.
In any case, this is not what Tolkien ended up writing; he evaded the
issue :-) by killing Denethor off before the confrontation could take
place.
Aragorn's behavior in the final version is rather less arrogant[1];
while it's pretty clear to me that he considered himself to be the
rightful King of Gondor, he had the good sense not to try to claim the
throne without a clear indication that the people of Gondor would
accept his claim.
[1] Too bad, in a way; "Aragorn the Arrogant" has a certain ring to
it.
--
"You ain't seen from animus." --Ken Rudolph
Robert S. Coren
ERK1030 <erk...@aol.com> wrote:
>>>>All Denethor knew from the palantir was that Aragorn was a ranger
>>>from the north. He may or may not have recognized him as his old
>>>rival "Thorongil".
>>>
>>>Source- RotK, chapter VII;
>>> 'Even were his claim proved to me, still he comes but from the line of
>>>Isildur'
>>>
>>>Believe me, he knew.
>>
>>I'm not convinced that he knew that Aragorn and Thorongil were the
>>same person.
>
"Knew"?
Therefore later, when all was made clear, many believed that
Denethor, who was subtle in mind and looked further and deeper than
other men of his day, had discovered who this stranger Thorongil in
truth was, and suspected that he and Mithrandir designed to supplant
him.
(Appendix A, part iv)
"Many believed" that he had figured out that Thorongil was Aragorn and
that Aragorn was the heir of Isildur, but we have no clear statement
that he did in fact know either of these things at the time.
--
|-------Robert Coren (co...@spdcc.com)-------------------------|
| Aw, well... I guess some of us talks too much, anyway. |
| --Rackety Coon Chile (Walt Kelly) |
|------------------Don't blame Steve for anything I post.------|
Robert S. Coren
Jonas Thorell <jon...@bahnhof.se> wrote:
>Russ wrote:
>
>> His Valinorin name was Olorin, and it wasn't a secret per se.
>
>and Olorin was the same person. Elrond, Galadriel and
>Cirdan knew, or so I suspect and I think it was said so
>in the Istari essay in Unfinished Tales. And the rest of the Istari.
I haven't checked UT. In LotR (Appendix) and "Of the Rings of Power" in
_Sil_, Círdan is said to know "whence he came", but not necessarily
what his name was. On the other hand, he had said in Faramir's
hearing, "Olórin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten", so
clearly the name was not a secret.
--
-------Robert Coren (co...@spdcc.com)-------------------------
"I am FAGGOT, Lord of the flames! Feel my wrath!" -- Kaz Underworld
David Salo
(Russ) wrote:
> Lord of the Westlands has a high kingy sound to it.
Possibly.
> It's arguable that Gondor was correct to reject Arvedui's claim because
there > were still male descendants of Anarion. An heir of Isildur's would
only move > to the top of the line of succession once Anarion's line was
exhausted. That > didn't occur until later.
I suppose it's "arguable" in the sense that "someone might argue this"!
And indeed somebody does. :) And while we don't know enough to say very
much about Numenorean inheritance law (which is really what this thread
continues to be about), it is contrary to the inheritance laws and customs
of many peoples, and certainly of European nobility and royalty, for an
older branch to inherit from a younger branch; if a title is granted to, or
acquired by, a certain lord, that title may descend to his offspring and
their offspring (heirs of the body), or even in some cases to a younger
brother or nephew, but may not _ascend_ to a parent or an older sibling.
Customs could have been different in the _Bair Annui_, but I doubt it.
> Imrahil and Faramir acknowledged Aragorn as king without any assent from the
> people. Tolkien wrote it as if they simply acknowledged it as a fact.
Agree.
David Salo
Jonas Thorell
> His Valinorin name was Olorin, and it wasn't a secret per se.
No but there weren't all that many that knew that Gandalf
and Olorin was the same person. Elrond, Galadriel and
Cirdan knew, or so I suspect and I think it was said so
in the Istari essay in Unfinished Tales. And the rest of the Istari.
/Jonas
Jonas Thorell
> Jonas wrote;
Well, no. It was Conrad. I myself am terrible at remembering
years and I don't have the Tales of Years.
> >Annoying nit-pick number two, Aragorn was one year younger than
> >Denethor.
> Aragorn- Born TA 2931, Died FO 120
> Denethor- Born TA 2930, Died TA 3019
/Jonas
David Salo
(Russ) wrote:
Unfinished Tales, "The Istari", p. 399
"At the time of this Tale, however, we find Gandalf always called
Mithrandir in Gondor (by men of rank or Numenorean origin, as Denethor,
Faramir, etc.). This is Sindarin, and given as the name used by the Elves;
but men of rank in Gondor knew and used this language. The 'popular' name
in the Westron or Common Speech was evidently one meaning 'Greymantle,' but
having been devised long before was now in an archaic form. This is maybe
represented by the _Greyhame_ used by Eomer in Rohan."
DS
Russ
>n article <20000202104709...@nso-fj.aol.com>, mcr...@aol.com
>(Russ) wrote:
>
>> >If he dies then
>> >>>Gondor can take what new lord it likes. Aragorn says he will not be
>> >>>'taken', he will take, but asks to see Faramir. ..."
>
>> Denethor says if he dies, its up to Gondor to decide if they will take
>Aragorn
>> as king. In other words, Denethor seems to place the power in the people's
>> hands.
>>
>> However, Aragorn's response it that he will not be taken, he will take. In
>> other words, the crown is his by right and that he doesn't have to rely on
>> Gondor taking him. Rather, he will take. So Aragorn's view appears to
>be that
>> the crown is his to take, not Gondor's to offer.
>
> Not only does it appear to be, it actually is (according to the words
>quoted); this is not a case where a passage can have two meanings! I'm
>aware (as I've said) that some people have extraordinarily poor
>understanding of written English, but this passage isn't even slightly
>confusing.
>
I'm trying to be diplomatic. <g>
Russ
Michael Martinez
>Michael Martinez <Mic...@xenite.org> wrote in message
>> No, he did not have the "right" to the throne of Gondor. Had he had the
>> "right", he wouldn't have had to depend on the good will of the people to
>> acclaim him king.
>
>Rights are not necessarily conferred automatically. Auto insurance companies
>have the obligation to pay policy holders for damaged vehicles, but they
>won't until a claim is made.
When Gondor had a claiment with the "right" to the throne, there was no
dithering over whether he should be accepted (I'm speaking of the sons of the
kings who inherited the throne, or their brothers or nephews).
We're speaking of the kings of Gondor, not the United States constitution or
historical kings of Europe, the Far East, and Africa.
>> >Isn't is an oversimplification to say Aragorn "was simply the chieftain
>> >of the Dunedain"?...
>>
>> No. That's what his title was, such as he had inherited from Aranarth.
>
>True he was the Chieftain but that doesn't exclude other titles.
He also called himself Lord of the Dunedain. Not much of a kingly title.
Aragorn did not inherit any kingship. Aragorn's right to claim the Palantir
came as a result of his being the heir of the person to whom it was originally
given (Amandil, who was never a king of Gondor). That right descended
independntly of the kingship, just as the right to possess Elendil's sword
descended independently of the kingship.
>> Aranarth did not go "underground". He simply decided he couldn't restore
>> the kingdom.
>
>You are correct, he could not restore his fathers kingdom, but that doesn't
>mean that they relinquished their claim. But _Of the Rings of Power_ says:
>
> At length naught was left of them [the Dunedain of the North]
> but a strange people wandering secretly in the wild, and other
> men new not their homes nor the purpose of their journeys,
> and save in Imladris, in the house of Elrond their ancestry was
> forgotten.
>
>The word "underground" might not be used but the meaning is present
>nonetheless, the Rangers went into hiding. What was the purpose of their
>journeys? To conduct an underground war against the servants of the Enemy.
An "underground war" is usually something on the order of attacking supply
depots, communications centers, transportation lines and centers, and inducing
workers to commit sabotage (or setting up spies and saboteurs to do the dirty
work). The Rangers weren't doing anything of the sort. They appear to have
fought Sauron's servants openly, but not as soldiers of Arnor or as servants
of the Heirs of Isildur.
Michael Martinez
>...I believe he does so as descendant of
>Isildur particularly, but whether you suppose he does so as heir of Isildur
>king of Gondor, or heir of Elendil titular head of the house of Gondor, is
>pretty much academic. However, if Aragorn had it pointed out to him that
>the Council of Gondor had rejected Arvedui's claim, he would doubtless have
>said that the Council was wrong then, and its rejection of the Isildurion
>line was still wrong now: for Arvedui's descent from Elendil was of course
>as impeccable as his descent from Isildur. Obviously it took some
>practical measures, and a good deal of luck, to realize the claim: but
>Aragorn would have said that the claim was good whether it could be
>realized or no.
Aragorn never presented himself to the people of Gondor as the Heir of
Isildur, except to explain his command over the Dead. He consistently
emphasized his descent from Elendil rather than Isildur whenever he was
talking to someone who might have some sort of interest in his future
kingship.
Aragorn would not have said the claim was good in any circumstances. He knew
the history of his people. He knew Arvedui's claim had been rejected. Why
would Aragorn want to repeat a mistake of the past?
> When did Aragorn first make his claim within the lands of Gondor? At
>Erech, when he unfurled his banner (The Return of the King, p. 63). At
>that time his following consisted of a couple of half-elves, one elf, one
>dwarf, a bunch of Northern Dunedain, and a whole lot of Dead Men. There
>was not a single man of Gondor among them: Aragorn had zero popular
>following at that point. Yet he made the claim nonetheless. And when
>Eomer said, after the battle of the Pelennor, "Will you suffer these to be
>challenged?", Aragorn answered "No." And at that point Aragorn believed
>that Denethor was still alive!
All Aragorn claimed to be at Erech was the Heir of Isildur, not the King of
Gondor. No device could be seen upon his banner at that time. To the Dead
Aragorn had to be Isildur's Heir of Gondor. They would not have remembered
Elendil, and their oath and curse were not associated with Elendil.
And when Eomer spoke to Aragorn after the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, he
did not say Aragorn had claimed to inherit the crown of Gondor as Isildur's
Heir, he said: "Already you have raised the banner of the kings and displayed
the tokens of Elendil's house". Aragorn spoke of himself as Elendil's Heir of
Gondor (outside the door to Meduseld, where Hama the doorwarden recognized
the significance of Aragorn's words and taunted him by saying, "This is the
house of Théoden, not of Aragorn, even were he King of Gondor in the seat of
Denethor").
When Theoden rode out from Helm's Deep, Tolkien referred to Aragorn as
Elendil's heir, not Isildur's.
When Faramir asked Eowyn why she stayed in Minas Tirith despite Eomer's
requests she join him at Cormallen, Faramir referred to Aragorn as Elendil's
Heir.
Clearly Aragorn was viewed as Elendil's Heir by the Rohirrim and the Steward
of Gondor who helped elevate him to the kingship. That is significant.
Michael Martinez
>certain high nobles on the realm) depended on the will of the people. We have
>the language in HOME from the rejected plot line in which Aragorn tells Denthor
>he will take and not be taken by Gondor. *Denethor* might have believed that
>Aragorn's claim depended on his acceptance by the people, but Denethor's view
>of things is generally discredited.
First of all, that language WAS rejected. Secondly, that Aragorn originally
said he would TAKE rather than be taken doesn't imply he would have become
king.
>Imrahil and Faramir acknowledged Aragorn as king without any assent from the
>people. Tolkien wrote it as if they simply acknowledged it as a fact.
Aragorn did not become king of Gondor until its people accepted him. Imrahil
and Faramir certainly were part of Gondor's people and their influence would
have been considerable, but Aragorn could not have forced himself upon the
kingdom of Gondor. How could he do so?
PaulB
(Russ) writes:
>>According to the Silmarillion, the first Glorfindel died in the Fall of
>>Gondolin.
>>According to Robert Foster's *Complete Guide to Middle-earth* The second
>>Glorfindel (the one present at the Council) Was born in TA 1975.
>>
>>Elrond was around since the First age.
>
>The complete guide is wrong. Tolkien decided that the Glorfindel's were the
>same. He was reembodied in Aman then sent over the Sea to help out in the
>wars
>with Sauron.
>
>Russ
As I understood the concept of elven death both statements are true. Aren't
Elven Spirits reborn in new bodies. So Glorifindel's Spirit could be the same
while the body would have been born at the date indicated. At least that's
always how I've read it, and the easiest way to make sense of all the facts at
once. In fact Glorfindel is part of what helped me in my understanding of
Elven Death and Return.
The only knot in this problem is Arwen, who some thought to be Luthien reborn,
but did not have any memories of that former life.
"...Arwen, daughter of Elrond, in whom it was said that the likeness of Luthien
had come on earth again;..."
PB
"Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that
die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal
out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends." -JRRT
Michael Martinez
>quoted); this is not a case where a passage can have two meanings! I'm
>aware (as I've said) that some people have extraordinarily poor
>understanding of written English, but this passage isn't even slightly
>confusing.
David, your slurs and continuing efforts to provoke flame wars aren't going to
help your case.
Michael Martinez
>I'm trying to be diplomatic. <g>
And David, in his small way, is trying to be insulting as usual. Neither you
nor he, however, are able to show that your opinions on this matter are any
more valid than those of the most insulted among us.
Michael Martinez
>In any case, this is not what Tolkien ended up writing; he evaded the
>issue :-) by killing Denethor off before the confrontation could take
>place.
Since when have people been deterred from introducing irrelevancies in these
debates?
Michael Martinez
>In article <8786q8$2i4...@news.uswest.net>, Mic...@xenite.org (Michael
>Martinez) writes:
>
><snip>
>
>>>I'm surprised to see you write this, you have it backwards. Aragorn had the
>>>"right" to the throne of Gondor but he did not have the strength to "claim"
>>>it.
>>
>>No, he did not have the "right" to the throne of Gondor. Had he had the
>>"right", he wouldn't have had to depend on the good will of the people to
>>acclaim him king.
>
>early drafts of the dialogue between Denethor and Aragorn in the rejected plot
>line, both Faramir and Imrahil acknowledged Aragorn as king (and liegelord)
>well before any popular acclamation by the people.
He did indeed appear to need it. Had Aragorn not reached Minas Tirith at the
head of an army of Gondorian soldiers, he most likely would not have been
accepted by Imrahil. Faramir was doubtful of Aragorn at first (Cf. his
statement to Frodo about clear proofs in Ithilien). That he had been healed
by Aragorn and his City saved by Aragorn were no doubt great factors in his
recognition of Aragorn's claim.
But the fact is that Aragorn was accepted by thousands of soldiers who
followed him to Minas Tirith well before Imrahil and Faramir were given a
chance to put in their 2 tharni's worth.
Michael Martinez
>as king. In other words, Denethor seems to place the power in the people's
>hands.
>
>However, Aragorn's response it that he will not be taken, he will take. In
>other words, the crown is his by right and that he doesn't have to rely on
>Gondor taking him. Rather, he will take. So Aragorn's view appears to be that
>the crown is his to take, not Gondor's to offer.
Not to me. Rather, Aragorn is saying he will not wait to be given the crown,
but will go forth and earn it.
Michael Martinez
>In article <8786q8$2i4...@news.uswest.net>,
>>No, he did not have the "right" to the throne of Gondor. Had he had the
>>"right", he wouldn't have had to depend on the good will of the people to
>>acclaim him king.
>
>didn't want him, given the circumstances.
How do you reach the conclusion that Aragorn had the legal right to be king
over Gondor?
He was not in fact (de jure) king of Gondor. Had he been, there would have
been no question of his dithering around for 70 years before he went down to
Minas Tirith to apply for the job.
David Salo
pbac...@aol.comnojunk (PaulB) wrote:
> The only knot in this problem is Arwen, who some thought to be Luthien reborn,
> but did not have any memories of that former life.
> "...Arwen, daughter of Elrond, in whom it was said that the likeness of
Luthien
> had come on earth again;..."
I don't think that Arwen was supposed to be Luthien, who "has died
indeed, and left the world long ago"; I think that what is meant is that
Arwen shared Luthien's _likeness_, her physical appearance, which is
perhaps less surprising considering that she was her
great-great-granddaughter. Cf. what is said of Elendur: "It is said that
in later days those (such as Elrond) whose memories recalled him were
struck by the great likeness to him, in body and mind, of King Elessar, the
victor in the War of the Ring, in which both the Ring and Sauron were ended
for ever. Elessar was according to the records of the Dunedain the
descendant in the thirty-eighth degree of Elendur's brother Valandil. So
long was it before he [i.e. Elendur] was avenged."
Aragorn and Elendur shared a "likeness"; but it would be very surprising
indeed if Tolkien had intended that Aragorn should be understood as Elendur
reborn.
David Salo
PaulB
>No, he did not have the "right" to the throne of Gondor. Had he had the
>"right", he wouldn't have had to depend on the good will of the people to
>acclaim him king.
>
>
Yes, but Hobbes condiders, in "the Leviathan," that the best form of govnment
is a hereditary monarchy that is chosen by the people. In this light, even
though Aragorn had a claim based on certain rights of inheritence, to truly
justify his rule he still would need the acclaimation of the ruled to truly
become their King. (If a government tries to lead when nobody is willing to
follow it either becomes a dictatorship or is overthrown.) Charles II needed
in England before he could take back the throne, (actually he had it given back
to him.)
Note: there is alway a question as to whether Hobbes justified the Restoration
or vice versa. IIRC, Hobbes wrote 'Leviatan" first.
Michael Martinez
>In article <8786q8$2i4...@news.uswest.net>, Mic...@xenite.org (Michael
>Martinez) writes:
>
>>No, he did not have the "right" to the throne of Gondor. Had he had the
>>"right", he wouldn't have had to depend on the good will of the people to
>>acclaim him king.
>>
>>
>
>Yes, but Hobbes condiders, in "the Leviathan," that the best form of govnment
>is a hereditary monarchy that is chosen by the people.
Perhaps you could repost that, prefacing your point with a clear indication of
how Tolkien modelled his governments in Middle-earth on Hobbes.
ERK1030
> The 'popular' name
>in the Westron or Common Speech was evidently one meaning 'Greymantle,' but
>having been devised long before was now in an archaic form. This is maybe
>represented by the _Greyhame_ used by Eomer in Rohan."
Incorrect.
Galdalf- "elvish wight with a magic staff" (literally, in Westron, gand=staff,
alf=elf[in]. Probably the givers of that name didn't know he was Istari)
Mithrandir- "Grey wanderer" (mith=grey, ran=to wander/stray, dir=man)
Thingol was Greymantle.
-Mithrigil
ERK1030
>thought that was his secret Valar name. (Apparently, amoung men they
>took and used the names that were given to him.)
Answer- Mithrandir was one of his "given" names. His Valar name was Olorin, and
it wasn't a secret.
"....Olorin I was in my youth in the west that is forgotten......"
Capezci?
-Mithrigil
Russ
Martinez) writes:
>>>No, he did not have the "right" to the throne of Gondor. Had he had the
>>>"right", he wouldn't have had to depend on the good will of the people to
>>>acclaim him king.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Yes, but Hobbes condiders, in "the Leviathan," that the best form of
>govnment
>>is a hereditary monarchy that is chosen by the people.
>
>Perhaps you could repost that, prefacing your point with a clear indication
>of
>how Tolkien modelled his governments in Middle-earth on Hobbes.
>
Hobbits!
Russ
Russ
pbac...@aol.comnojunk (PaulB) writes:
>As I understood the concept of elven death both statements are true. Aren't
>Elven Spirits reborn in new bodies.
The rebirth concept was abandoned in favor of a what I call reembodiment. The
Valar could essentially recreate the former physical body of the deceased elf.
So Glorifindel's Spirit could be the
>same
>while the body would have been born at the date indicated. At least that's
>always how I've read it, and the easiest way to make sense of all the facts
>at
>once. In fact Glorfindel is part of what helped me in my understanding of
>Elven Death and Return.
I see where you're coming from. I'd avoid the use of the words related to
"birth" however. Tolkien rejected the idea that Elves were reborn in the sense
of an actual birth.
>
>The only knot in this problem is Arwen, who some thought to be Luthien
>reborn,
>but did not have any memories of that former life.
>"...Arwen, daughter of Elrond, in whom it was said that the likeness of
>Luthien
>had come on earth again;..."
I don't read that as a literal rebirth.
Russ
Russ
Martinez) writes:
>>I agree. I don't think Aragorn's claim (at least in his mind and in the mind
>of
>>certain high nobles on the realm) depended on the will of the people. We
>have
>>the language in HOME from the rejected plot line in which Aragorn tells
>Denthor
>>he will take and not be taken by Gondor. *Denethor* might have believed
>that
>>Aragorn's claim depended on his acceptance by the people, but Denethor's
>view
>>of things is generally discredited.
>
>First of all, that language WAS rejected.
The only idea clearly rejected is that Denethor would survive and have some
sort of dialogue with Aragorn. The background opinion and motives of Aragorn
as revealed in that passage was not necessarily rejected. It's instructive in
any event.
Secondly, that Aragorn originally
>said he would TAKE rather than be taken doesn't imply he would have become
>king.
I agree. That's why I placed the parenthetical in there.
>
>>Imrahil and Faramir acknowledged Aragorn as king without any assent from the
>>people. Tolkien wrote it as if they simply acknowledged it as a fact.
>
>Aragorn did not become king of Gondor until its people accepted him.
What's your cite for that? Imrahil's statement in Ithilien contradicts you.
Imrahil
>
>and Faramir certainly were part of Gondor's people and their influence would
>have been considerable, but Aragorn could not have forced himself upon the
>kingdom of Gondor. How could he do so?
This is a de jure and de facto distinction. Imrahil and Faramir accepted the
de jure legitimacy of Aragorn as King. Whether that could translate into a de
facto power of rule remained to be seen.
Russ
Russ
Martinez) writes:
>><snip>
>>
>>>>I'm surprised to see you write this, you have it backwards. Aragorn had
>the
>>>>"right" to the throne of Gondor but he did not have the strength to
>"claim"
>>>>it.
>>>
>>>No, he did not have the "right" to the throne of Gondor. Had he had the
>>>"right", he wouldn't have had to depend on the good will of the people to
>>>acclaim him king.
>>
>>He didn't appear to need it. Putting aside our differing interpretation of
>the
>>early drafts of the dialogue between Denethor and Aragorn in the rejected
>plot
>>line, both Faramir and Imrahil acknowledged Aragorn as king (and liegelord)
>>well before any popular acclamation by the people.
>
>He did indeed appear to need it. Had Aragorn not reached Minas Tirith at the
>
>head of an army of Gondorian soldiers, he most likely would not have been
>accepted by Imrahil.
How do you know that? (Of course, had Aragorn not so arrived, Imrahil wouldn't
have been alive to think these hypothetical thoughts)
> Faramir was doubtful of Aragorn at first (Cf. his
>statement to Frodo about clear proofs in Ithilien).
Faramir was only presented at that point with a hobbits story. When faced with
the real mccoy his reaction was immediate. In fact, almost instinctal since he
caled him king right out of unconsciousness.
That he had been healed
>by Aragorn and his City saved by Aragorn were no doubt great factors in his
>recognition of Aragorn's claim.
Faramir had just woken from a state of unconsciousness. His reaction appeared
to me almost as instinct.
>But the fact is that Aragorn was accepted by thousands of soldiers who
>followed him to Minas Tirith well before Imrahil and Faramir were given a
>chance to put in their 2 tharni's worth.
Wouldn't you if you just saw him command an army of dead people? <g>
Russ
Russ
Martinez) writes:
>>Denethor says if he dies, its up to Gondor to decide if they will take
>Aragorn
>>as king. In other words, Denethor seems to place the power in the people's
>>hands.
>>
>>However, Aragorn's response it that he will not be taken, he will take. In
>>other words, the crown is his by right and that he doesn't have to rely on
>>Gondor taking him. Rather, he will take. So Aragorn's view appears to be
>that
>>the crown is his to take, not Gondor's to offer.
>
>Not to me. Rather, Aragorn is saying he will not wait to be given the crown,
>
>but will go forth and earn it.
>
Ok. Vive la difference!
Russ