COTW: Index III. Places

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Belba Grubb From Stock

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Sep 26, 2005, 9:03:52 PM9/26/05
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One could sing or chant the first part of this section quite
independently of the associations each place name has for the reader who
has completed /The Lord of the Rings/: "Aglarond, Aldalome, Ambarona,
Amon Din, Amon Hen, Amon Lhaw, Amon Sul, Ancient World."

Such is the beauty of the place names JRRT used. And the associations
they bring up from the story are those involving, respectively: Gimli;
Treebeard; the northern threshold of Old Gondor and the struggle there
among Frodo, Sauron, and (though we did not know it at the time)
Gandalf; and Aragorn telling the hobbits how Elendil once awaited the
arrival of the Noldorin High King at the very place where he and they
were now expecting the arrival of the dreaded Black Riders. The last
one brings up a pop quiz: Without looking, do you recognize what the
Ancient World was and where it was mentioned? (Hint: Aragorn spoke of
it, but not at Amon Sul--however, I know this only because I had to look
it up. Sigh.)

JRRT worked hard on names of places, for he knew that

in an imaginary country and period, as this one, coherently made,
the nomenclature is a more important element than in an
'historical' novel...If in an imaginary land *real* place-names are
used, or ones that are carefully constructed to fall into familiar
patterns, these become integral names, [and] 'sound real'

-- From a 1956 letter to Rayner Unwin (Letter 190)

Here we are very close to one of the wellsprings of the work's power.
Is it because so much of it "sounded real" to you that it became real?
Certainly it had that effect on me, although nomenclature is only one
part of the very complex attraction.

JRRT gives us, in Appendix F.11, an example of using real place names:
the derivation of the names for Bree, Combe, Archet and Chetwood,
modeled on "relics of British nomenclature." Perhaps those in the UK
could provide modern examples of similar place names today. I find
echoes of them in Keats' "For there's Bishops teign," with its Coomb,
Arch Brook, and Wild Wood; and JRRT would certainly have felt
comfortable with that poem's closing:

Then who would go
Into dark Soho
And chatter with dak'd-hair'd critics
When he can stay
for the new-mown hay
And startle the dappled prickets?

At the least, Tolkien would have known what a dappled pricket was. :-)

It might take another linguist to follow JRRT's second method, in which
he constructed names "to fall into familiar patterns." I hope somebody
here can tell us more about that. Certainly at some times he would
start with a name and from that construct its history and place within
the languages of Arda, but he also had a set of rules that he used, at
least for Shire names, based on

the style, origins, and mode of formation of English (especially
Midland) place-names.

--From a 1965 letter to the 'Thain' of the Tolkien Society of
America (Letter 276)

In this letter he noted that

if a proper map of the whole Shire were drawn up there could be
quite a large number of places entered.

and he offered to construct new names for the use of the TSA's members.
Did he, in fact, do this?

Enough already. One more quiz: where are these places, and with what
and/or whom are they associated in the story?

- Arnach
- Bamfurlong
- Celos
- Ciril
- Fen Hollen
- Durthand
- Eastlands
- Gilrain (not to be confused with Gilraen)
- Great Wood
- Irensaga
- Limlight River
- Merethrond
- Northerland
- Old Grange
- South Lane
- Tarlang's Neck
- Underharrow
- World's End

In going through the list one sees again how much of /The Silmarillion/
is brought in here, from Oiolosse to Calacirya and Eressea, out to
Westernesse, and back all the way to Beleriand and Doriath. The index
again shows how JRRT was working in his larger mythology.

And what are your thoughts and comments and wonderments on this section?

Barb

aelfwina

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Sep 26, 2005, 10:05:51 PM9/26/05
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"Belba Grubb From Stock" <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote in message
news:11jh6k8...@corp.supernews.com...

> One could sing or chant the first part of this section quite independently
> of the associations each place name has for the reader who has completed
> /The Lord of the Rings/: "Aglarond, Aldalome, Ambarona, Amon Din, Amon
> Hen, Amon Lhaw, Amon Sul, Ancient World."

Just as Treebeard did. And you are quite right.

> Enough already. One more quiz: where are these places, and with what
> and/or whom are they associated in the story?
>
> - Arnach
> - Bamfurlong
> - Celos
> - Ciril
> - Fen Hollen
> - Durthand
> - Eastlands
> - Gilrain (not to be confused with Gilraen)
> - Great Wood
> - Irensaga
> - Limlight River
> - Merethrond
> - Northerland
> - Old Grange
> - South Lane
> - Tarlang's Neck
> - Underharrow
> - World's End
>

The only one that jumps out at me is Bamfurlong, Farmer Maggot's place. But
several of the others tug at my memory, meaning I'll be up half the night
trying to remember, and then end up looking them up--in the Index....LOL!

Barbara


Christopher Kreuzer

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Sep 27, 2005, 3:54:45 PM9/27/05
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Belba Grubb From Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:

<snip>

Sorry to fast-forward to the pop quiz. Some nice comments there about
names. Have you ever seen a copy of Tolkien's 'Guide to Names' that he
wrote for translators to use?

> Without looking, do you recognize what the
> Ancient World was and where it was mentioned? (Hint: Aragorn spoke
> of it, but not at Amon Sul--however, I know this only because I had
> to look it up. Sigh.)

I would have been completely stuck without the Aragorn hint. Actually, I
think I am still completely stuck!

Ancient World...

Aha! Terror of the Ancient World?

Sounds like what he said to Galadriel and Celeborn in Lothlorien:

"It was both a flame and a shadow. It was a terror of the Ancient World,
such as I have never seen before..."

And Legolas then says it was:

"...a Balrog of Morgoth..."

[Keats poem]

> Then who would go
> Into dark Soho
> And chatter with dak'd-hair'd critics
> When he can stay
> for the new-mown hay
> And startle the dappled prickets?
>
> At the least, Tolkien would have known what a dappled pricket was. :-)

And what about us poor unenlightened souls? :-)

<snip>

> Enough already. One more quiz: where are these places, and with what
> and/or whom are they associated in the story?
>
> - Arnach

Song of the Mounds of Mundberg.

"...to Arnach, to his own country, returned in triumph"

I think the preceding line was something like "Nor Forlong the old
ever...", as part of a long list of those lords that fell at Pelennor.

> - Bamfurlong

Farmer Maggot's farm. But I only know that because I noticed it a few
weeks ago. Wouldn't have known this before then.

> - Celos

River in southern Gondor. Legolas sings about it.

"Silver flow the streams from Celos to Erui..."

> - Ciril

Oh. River? Maybe not, as you've mentioned a few already.

I'll go with one of the beacon-hills that Gandalf points out to Pippin.

> - Fen Hollen

Possibly something to do with Hollin?
Some area near the gates of Moria?

I should remember what 'fen' means at least!

> - Durthand

I can remember a Durthang.
A fortress in Mordor.
But not a Durthand.

> - Eastlands

Hmm. East of something.

Probably somewhere in that big open space east of Anduin and Mirkwood,
and north of Mordor.

> - Gilrain (not to be confused with Gilraen)

That's definitely a river. Not sure where. Probably another one in
southern Gondor somewhere, like Celos.

> - Great Wood

Hmm. Mirkwood is a big wood. Seems too obvious though. I think this is
someone talking about Mirkwood. Either that or the wood that once
stretched from Fangorn to the Old Forest, as Elrond says about some
squirrel.

> - Irensaga

Hmmmmmmm. Total blank.

> - Limlight River

That flows into the Anduin at some point, flowing from the west into the
Anduin, possibly from Fangorn. The Fellowship talked about it. Either at
some point on the route from Lorien to Rauros, or at Rauros when talking
about the swamps below Rauros on the western banks.

> - Merethrond

It's on the tip of my tongue! Reminds me of Nargathrond. Probably
somewhere in Rohan or Gondor. For some reason I think it is a summer
retreat for Theoden.

> - Northerland

Isn't that the phrase Frodo uses in his Lament for Gandalf. No, that
phrase is 'Wilderland'. Maybe 'Northerland' is a phrase used in Bilbo's
song of Earendil?

"On high above the mists he came
A distant flame before the sun
where grey the Nor'land waters run..."

Nor'land = Northerland?

Though thinking about it, I'm sure it _is_ also used in Frodo's lament
for Gandalf:

"From Wilderland to western shore
From northern waste to southern hill..." ??

OK. Probably not. So I'll stick with the Earendil reference above.

> - Old Grange

Somewhere in the Shire. Is that close enough?

> - South Lane

Somewhere in the Shire. Or maybe in Minas Tirith. Or maybe Bree.

I'll go with Bree.

> - Tarlang's Neck

That I do remember - though again only because I noticed it a few weeks
ago when we first started perusing the index. It is a point on the
journey that Aragorn and the Grey Company make after they emerge from
under the mountains. They pass it as they journey to the Stone of Erech.

> - Underharrow

The twin of Dunharrow? So it is somewhere in Rohan.

> - World's End

That is definitely in Bilbo's song of Earendil.

"From World's End then he turned away
and yearned again to find his home
afar through shadows journeying
from east to west he passed away
unheralded he homeward sped..."

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard

John Jones

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Sep 28, 2005, 1:26:30 PM9/28/05
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"Belba Grubb From Stock" <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote in message
news:11jh6k8...@corp.supernews.com...

> JRRT gives us, in Appendix F.11, an example of using real place names:
> the derivation of the names for Bree, Combe, Archet and Chetwood,
> modeled on "relics of British nomenclature." Perhaps those in the UK
> could provide modern examples of similar place names today. I find
> echoes of them in Keats' "For there's Bishops teign," with its Coomb,
> Arch Brook, and Wild Wood; and JRRT would certainly have felt
> comfortable with that poem's closing:

There's a place called Combe a few miles NW of Ox ford. 'combe/coombe'
means a valley.
'-chet' is a common part of a place name, but I don't know what it means. I
found a Chetnole in Dorset.
'Bree' means 'hill' and is a common part of place names, e.g.. Bredon Hill
(bree, down, hill!) which is close to Hilary Tolkien's farm. There is a
town called Bree in Belgium, but this is probably not relevant :o)

Pete Gray

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Sep 29, 2005, 3:11:23 PM9/29/05
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In article <dhekvt$2qq$2...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>,
jo...@jones5011.fsnet.co.uk says...
There's a Chetwode in Buckinghamshire, and a Chetterwood in Dorset.

Lots of names ending in '-chet'. 'Chet' means 'wood', so Chetwode would
be Woodwwood.

Eight Combes (including three in Devon!). 18 further villages starting
with 'Combe'. Numerous features, including rather wonderfully, given
that combe means valley, quite a lot of Combe Hills.

ISTR that 'Brill' is a contraction of 'Bree Hill' (ie Hill Hill), so
it's good to se that Cornwall rejoices in a Brill Hill.

Thanks to the Ordnance Survey - one of those things that makes you proud
of Britain. Find more here:
<http://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/oswebsite/freefun/didyouknow/>

--
Pete Gray

The Curator's Egg - thinking about museums
<http://www.redbadge.co.uk/egg/>

Christopher Kreuzer

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Oct 2, 2005, 7:06:45 AM10/2/05
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Christopher Kreuzer <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> Belba Grubb From Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:

Marking my answers...

>> Without looking, do you recognize what the
>> Ancient World was and where it was mentioned? (Hint: Aragorn spoke
>> of it, but not at Amon Sul--however, I know this only because I had
>> to look it up. Sigh.)
>
> I would have been completely stuck without the Aragorn hint.
> Actually, I think I am still completely stuck!
>
> Ancient World...
>
> Aha! Terror of the Ancient World?
>
> Sounds like what he said to Galadriel and Celeborn in Lothlorien:
>
> "It was both a flame and a shadow. It was a terror of the Ancient
> World, such as I have never seen before..."

"...he spoke of [...] the coming of the Terror. 'An evil of the Ancient
World it seemed, such as I have never seen before,' said Aragorn. 'It
was both a shadow and a flame, strong and terrible.'" (The Mirror of
Galadriel)

I must stop attempting to quote verbatim from memory.
It's just embarassing when it all goes ever so slightly wrong...

> And Legolas then says it was:
>
> "...a Balrog of Morgoth..."
>
> [Keats poem]
>
>> Then who would go
>> Into dark Soho
>> And chatter with dak'd-hair'd critics
>> When he can stay
>> for the new-mown hay
>> And startle the dappled prickets?
>>
>> At the least, Tolkien would have known what a dappled pricket was.
>> :-)
>
> And what about us poor unenlightened souls? :-)

Nabbed from a website:

"A pricket, my dictionary tells me, is a two year old male fallow deer
with unbranched horns."

And dappled must refer to the beautiful patterns of sunlight falling on
the patterns on the hide of the deer.

[Talking of animal hides, I have an update to the phrase that hs two
meanings and used four definitions of 'fell': "The fell fell, from the
fell fell". There is a fifth meaning of fell, closely related to the
past tense of falling, but a distinct meaning. When you knock someone
over, or kill them, you are said to have 'felled' them. Though I now
wonder if this relates to the 'fell' = lethal (hence felon) meaning?

Anyway, a new paragraph (couldn't get it as a short and sweet sentence
like the previous one):

"The kestrel fell from the sky, as it stooped on the mouse running over
the fell. The rodent vainly scurried around the high, barren, treeless
landscape, but was soon felled as the predatory bird's fell talons
pierced its fell."

Nothing to do with Tolkien or Keats. But if we can talk about dappled
prickets...]

> <snip>
>
>> Enough already. One more quiz: where are these places, and with what
>> and/or whom are they associated in the story?
>>
>> - Arnach
>
> Song of the Mounds of Mundberg.
>
> "...to Arnach, to his own country, returned in triumph"
>
> I think the preceding line was something like "Nor Forlong the old
> ever...", as part of a long list of those lords that fell at Pelennor.

In true poetic tradition, Tolkien seems to be using Arnach as a
shortened version of Lossarnach:

"...old Forlong the Fat, the Lord of Lossarnach..."

That explains why I thought Forlong was said to be fat in the poem.
Though I seem to have said he was old instead... Anyway, I should have
realised an alliterative verse would (a) not call him fat/old, and (b)
would alliterate with Forlong, hence:

"nor Forlong the old to the flowering vales
ever, to Arnach, to his own country
returned in triumph..."

But for full credit, I think it needs to be said that Arnach =
Lossarnach. Which is in the "high vales of the mountain borders", which
is where Ioreth grew up with her sisters ("I will ride to Lossarnach
with Ioreth behind me, and she shall take me to the woods, but not to
her sisters. And Shadowfax shall show her the meaning of haste.")

Interesting, when we read of the forces led from Minas Tirith to aid the
Rohirrim on the field of Pelennor, Forlong (the Lord of Lossarnach) is
included in the list, but by title only, not by name:

"But the horsemen rode eastward to the succour of Eomer: Hurin the Tall
Warden of the Keys, and the Lord of Lossarnach, and Hirluin of the Green
Hills, and Prince Imrahil the fair with his knights all about him."

And later, comes the sad denouement:

"The axes hewed Forlong as he fought alone and unhorsed..."

>> - Bamfurlong
>
> Farmer Maggot's farm. But I only know that because I noticed it a few
> weeks ago. Wouldn't have known this before then.

Actually Farmer Maggot's land, not just the farm, though there may not
be that much difference between the two.

>> - Celos
>
> River in southern Gondor. Legolas sings about it.
>
> "Silver flow the streams from Celos to Erui..."

Yup.

>> - Ciril
>
> Oh. River? Maybe not, as you've mentioned a few already.

Double bluffed myself here.

"One day of light we rode, and then came the day without dawn, and still
we rode on, and Ciril and Ringlo we crossed; and on the third day we
came to Linhir above the mouth of Gilrain." (The Last Debate)

> I'll go with one of the beacon-hills that Gandalf points out to
> Pippin.

Ooh. What were they now...
Had to look them all up, except one. :-(

Can anyone name the seven beacon hills that Gandalf names?
Without looking them up, obviously.

>> - Fen Hollen
>
> Possibly something to do with Hollin?
> Some area near the gates of Moria?
>
> I should remember what 'fen' means at least!

Got this completely wrong, though I was getting near the answer by gates
of Moria, for function at least, if not location.

>> - Durthand
>
> I can remember a Durthang.
> A fortress in Mordor.
> But not a Durthand.

Still can't find any Durthand. And the index shows plainly that this was
indeed a typo for Durthang, so I got this, but technically the question
should be discounted altogether.

>> - Eastlands
>
> Hmm. East of something.
>
> Probably somewhere in that big open space east of Anduin and Mirkwood,
> and north of Mordor.

Should have just said "Rhun". Frodo sees at the Black Gate:

"These were Men of other race, out of the wide Eastlands, gathering to
the summons of their Overlord..."

>> - Gilrain (not to be confused with Gilraen)
>
> That's definitely a river. Not sure where. Probably another one in
> southern Gondor somewhere, like Celos.

Yup. See quote above.

>> - Great Wood
>
> Hmm. Mirkwood is a big wood. Seems too obvious though. I think this is
> someone talking about Mirkwood. Either that or the wood that once
> stretched from Fangorn to the Old Forest, as Elrond says about some
> squirrel.

I should have said which one I meant here. Obviously I meant the first
one, which is correct... :-)

Didn't realise it was Legolas doing this talking, though I should have
realised that:

Gimli: "I hope to have a part in it, for the honour of the folk of the
Lonely Mountain."

Legolas: "And I for the folk of the Great Wood, and for the love of the
Lord of the White Tree."

>> - Irensaga
>
> Hmmmmmmm. Total blank.

So obviously no marks.

I wonder if 'Irensaga' translates as anything?

>> - Limlight River
>
> That flows into the Anduin at some point, flowing from the west into
> the Anduin, possibly from Fangorn. The Fellowship talked about it.
> Either at some point on the route from Lorien to Rauros, or at Rauros
> when talking about the swamps below Rauros on the western banks.

Well, rather conveniently, taking the first answer gets me a mark. But I
really didn't know which one was right, and I thought it was the second
one, so probably nothing here...

"Ere long we shall come to the mouth of the Limlight that runs down from
Fangorn to join the Great River. That is the north boundary of Rohan;
and of old all that lay between Limlight and the White Mountains
belonged to the Rohirrim."

So the Limlight, as seen on the map, is the river that flows out of the
northern part of Fangorn. The other river I was thinking of, that flows
out of southern Fangorn and meets Anduin below Rauros at the Wetwang,
is, of course, the Entwash.

>> - Merethrond
>
> It's on the tip of my tongue! Reminds me of Nargathrond. Probably
> somewhere in Rohan or Gondor. For some reason I think it is a summer
> retreat for Theoden.

Hmm. Not a summer retreat. Not even in Rohan. It's in Gondor, and
specifically in Minas Tirith. Like Fen Hollen (also in Minas Tirith), it
is a place within the city.

>> - Northerland
>
> Isn't that the phrase Frodo uses in his Lament for Gandalf. No, that
> phrase is 'Wilderland'. Maybe 'Northerland' is a phrase used in
> Bilbo's song of Earendil?

Hmm. Missed a line out of the quote.

> "On high above the mists he came
> A distant flame before the sun

[a wonder ere the waking dawn]

> where grey the Nor'land waters run..."
>
> Nor'land = Northerland?
>
> Though thinking about it, I'm sure it _is_ also used in Frodo's lament
> for Gandalf:
>
> "From Wilderland to western shore
> From northern waste to southern hill..." ??

Hey! I got this quote completely right!!

> OK. Probably not. So I'll stick with the Earendil reference above.

Unfortunately, the index has a _separate_ entry for Norland, though I
still insist that it must be a poetic shortening of Northerland!

Anyone agree or think otherwise?

The index entry for Northerland refers to Boromir's journey, and I
should have remembered this, having previously posted something about
what precisely this Northerland is, with reference to the lament for
Boromir:

"...I passed through the Gap by the skirts of the White Mountains, and
crossed the Isen and the Greyflood into Northerland." (Boromir in
'Farewell to Lorien)

"I saw him ride over seven streams, over waters wide and grey;
I saw him walk in empty lands, until he passed away
Into the shadows of the North. I saw him then no more."
(The Departure of Boromir)

Looking at the Greyflood on the map, it seems to mark the border between
Enedwaith and Minhiriath, though I seem to recall some definitions of
Eriador excluding Enedwaith, so maybe by "Northerland" Boromir is
referring to crossing the Greyflood into Eriador?

>> - Old Grange
>
> Somewhere in the Shire. Is that close enough?

Though maybe extra marks available for saying that we see it knocked
down in the 'Scouring of the Shire'?

>> - South Lane
>
> Somewhere in the Shire. Or maybe in Minas Tirith. Or maybe Bree.
>
> I'll go with Bree.

Triple bluffed myself here. It was in the Shire. You'd go down here to
get to Tom Cotton's place.

>> - Tarlang's Neck
>
> That I do remember - though again only because I noticed it a few
> weeks ago when we first started perusing the index. It is a point on
> the journey that Aragorn and the Grey Company make after they emerge
> from under the mountains. They pass it as they journey to the Stone
> of Erech.

Ahem. As they journey _from_ the Stone of Erech:

"They passed Tarlang's Neck and came into Lamedon; and the Shadow Host
pressed behind and fear went on before them..."

>> - Underharrow
>
> The twin of Dunharrow? So it is somewhere in Rohan.

Yay!

"On down the grey road they went beside the Snowbourn rushing on its
stones; through the hamlets of Underharrow and Upbourn, where many sad
faces of women looked out from dark doors..."

This is when Merry sets out with the Rohirrim from Dunharrow to Edoras.

>> - World's End
>
> That is definitely in Bilbo's song of Earendil.
>
> "From World's End then he turned away
> and yearned again to find his home
> afar through shadows journeying

Ahem. Swap "his home" and "afar".

> from east to west he passed away
> unheralded he homeward sped..."

And scrub this. It's from an earlier part of the poem.

I seem to have got about 11 out of 19. Give or take a few dubious awards
of self-marked questions! :-)

Christopher Kreuzer

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Oct 2, 2005, 7:14:34 AM10/2/05
to
Christopher Kreuzer <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

<snip>

> "...old Forlong the Fat, the Lord of Lossarnach..."
>
> That explains why I thought Forlong was said to be fat in the poem.
> Though I seem to have said he was old instead...

To avoid any possible confusion, I got confused and didn't realise that
Forlong was _both_ old and fat. I got the poem description (old) right,
but just omitted the alliterating bit (flowering vales) altogether - in
my original answer.

Even the 'fat' description includes 'old', to complete the confusion.

Christopher Kreuzer

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Oct 2, 2005, 7:20:00 AM10/2/05
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Christopher Kreuzer <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

<snip>

>>> - Northerland


>>
>> Maybe 'Northerland' is a phrase used in
>> Bilbo's song of Earendil?
>>

>> "On high above the mists he came
>> A distant flame before the sun

>> A wonder ere the waking dawn


>> where grey the Nor'land waters run..."
>>
>> Nor'land = Northerland?

<snip>

> Unfortunately, the index has a _separate_ entry for Norland, though I
> still insist that it must be a poetic shortening of Northerland!
>
> Anyone agree or think otherwise?

Can't find anything for Norland.
Note there is no apostrophe as I thought there was.
I hope it is a variant of "Northerland".
Or maybe it is just a river?

Steve Morrison

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Oct 2, 2005, 11:06:30 PM10/2/05
to
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:

> >> - Irensaga
> >
> > Hmmmmmmm. Total blank.
>
> So obviously no marks.
>
> I wonder if 'Irensaga' translates as anything?

It means "Iron Saw" according to "Guide to the Names in /The Lord of
the Rings/". A bit more at this URL:

http://www.tuckborough.net/mountains.html#Irensaga

Belba Grubb From Stock

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Oct 3, 2005, 6:24:55 PM10/3/05
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Dirk Thierbach wrote:

<snip>

> The poems of the Hobbit are very badly translated, and as a child I
> hated all of them :-) In the english original, I started to get
interested. The translation of the poems of LotR are pretty good,
> but I think it took also some time until I was interested in them.

JRRT said once he felt the verses were not all that good. I don't know why.

I wonder if the poems might also be a way to get more a feel for
English. Have you ever considered translating them into German
yourself? (Once when asked why he wrote the books, JRRT replied that it
was because it was the sort of story he wanted to read but couldn't
find...that could hold true for translations, too!)

>> This was the first one I happened to read and had the same reaction
>> -- it is just so vivid and "tight" and at the end there "The
>> Flammifer of Westernesse."
>
>
>
> Yes, the "internal rhyme" (if this is the right expression) together with
> the alliteration is just incredible. I especially like the part
>
> [...] to Night of Naught,
> and passed, and never sight he saw
> of shining shore nor light he sought.
>
> It's a bit like a "Schuettelreim" (shaken rhyme?), where you just switch
> consonants or syllables between two words to make up the second line.
> (Does that exists in English at all? I cannot remember having seen
> any examples in English.)

The very word in German sounds like poetry. I wish I were more skilled
in this -- I don't know if an English equivalent exists. It certainly
seems likely to. Anybody?

> If I have some time, I'll give it a try. Is lilypond format ok? It's
> free, cross-platform, and the input file is plain text (so I can just
> post it here) and readable by humans. Also, the postscript output
> looks quite good. See http://www.lilypond.org/web/.

That looks like a very good format to use.

It has taken me all this time to reply to your note because I needed to
find a software that I could use to write down the music I have heard;
unfortunately, there isn't a single musical instrument in the house, and
I don't have the native ability to write it down without first seeing
what the note is. As a transcriptionist I do have the capability to
record audio files and have done so into a WAV file -- it's pretty bad,
actually, as I'm not a singer, but perhaps the melody will come through.
(Obligatory copyright note: The words are those of J.R.R.Tolkien but
the tune is mine and all rights are reserved.) I'm sure everybody will
appreciate your method of writing it out instead -- much more merciful!!

http://www.timelineic.org/LamentofRohirrim.wav

It's pretty faint but did come through when I checked it just now; the
speakers do need to be all the way up to catch it. Please forgive the
amateurishness of it. For some reason I can't get the WAV file of /The
Ent and the Entwife/ to upload; probably the computers are trying to
tell me something. ;^)

Barb

Christopher Kreuzer

unread,
Oct 21, 2005, 3:46:59 PM10/21/05
to
Belba Grubb From Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:
> Dirk Thierbach wrote:

[Writing and singing tunes from/for LotR]

>> If I have some time, I'll give it a try. Is lilypond format ok? It's
>> free, cross-platform, and the input file is plain text (so I can just
>> post it here) and readable by humans. Also, the postscript output
>> looks quite good. See http://www.lilypond.org/web/.

Did anything further happen with this?

> That looks like a very good format to use.
>
> It has taken me all this time to reply to your note because I needed
> to find a software that I could use to write down the music I have
> heard; unfortunately, there isn't a single musical instrument in the
> house, and I don't have the native ability to write it down without
> first seeing what the note is.
>
> As a transcriptionist I do have the capability to
> record audio files and have done so into a WAV file -- it's pretty
> bad, actually, as I'm not a singer, but perhaps the melody will come
> through. (Obligatory copyright note: The words are those of
> J.R.R.Tolkien but the tune is mine and all rights are reserved.)
> I'm sure everybody will appreciate your method of writing it out
> instead -- much more merciful!!
>
> http://www.timelineic.org/LamentofRohirrim.wav

Haven't had time to listen to this until now. Thanks for letting us hear
your tune. Different to the way I'd imagined the poem being sung, but
then I guess we all have different ideas of what these songs should
sound like, and in the end the only constraint is the words.

Can I ask what equipment you used to make the recording? I have
read/sung/chanted some of the songs and poems onto audio cassette tape,
and I was wondering how to record that to some digital file format. I
promise not to inflict any of it on anyone here! It's just so I can
preserve the recordings better.

Dirk Thierbach

unread,
Oct 21, 2005, 5:53:25 PM10/21/05
to
Christopher Kreuzer <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> Belba Grubb From Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:
>> Dirk Thierbach wrote:

> [Writing and singing tunes from/for LotR]

>>> If I have some time, I'll give it a try. Is lilypond format ok? It's
>>> free, cross-platform, and the input file is plain text (so I can just
>>> post it here) and readable by humans. Also, the postscript output
>>> looks quite good. See http://www.lilypond.org/web/.

> Did anything further happen with this?

Sorry, didn't have any time yet.

- Dirk

JimboCat

unread,
Oct 31, 2005, 1:11:32 PM10/31/05
to
On Fri, 21 Oct 2005 19:46:59 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer"
<spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

>Belba Grubb From Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:

>> http://www.timelineic.org/LamentofRohirrim.wav


>
>Can I ask what equipment you used to make the recording? I have
>read/sung/chanted some of the songs and poems onto audio cassette tape,
>and I was wondering how to record that to some digital file format. I
>promise not to inflict any of it on anyone here! It's just so I can
>preserve the recordings better.

Your computer has a standard mini-stereo phone plug input: the same
plug as a pair of headphones uses (not to be confused with the
headphones output!). Your cassette player has one of these, too, but
you'll be better off to use the dual phono plug output from the
cassette deck (if it has these) and a connecting cord with a pair of
phono plugs on one end and a stereo mini-phone plug on the other to
connect them together.

Then just play the tune into the computer and use the "Record"
application that came with your sound card.

OTOH, if you don't have such an input or such an application you are
SOL: your sound card probably doesn't have record capability. It might
be well-hidden though: search thoroughly!

Jim Deutch (JimboCat)
--
e^(i*pi) = -1

Christopher Kreuzer

unread,
Oct 31, 2005, 5:14:29 PM10/31/05
to
JimboCat <10313...@compuserve.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 21 Oct 2005 19:46:59 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer"
> <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Belba Grubb From Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:
>>> http://www.timelineic.org/LamentofRohirrim.wav
>>
>> Can I ask what equipment you used to make the recording? I have
>> read/sung/chanted some of the songs and poems onto audio cassette
>> tape, and I was wondering how to record that to some digital file
>> format. I promise not to inflict any of it on anyone here! It's just
>> so I can preserve the recordings better.
>
> Your computer has a standard mini-stereo phone plug input: the same
> plug as a pair of headphones uses (not to be confused with the
> headphones output!).

Hmm. I know how to plug a microphone into a cassette tape player and
record sounds. I've found the microphone plug on the computer, with the
helpful microphone symbol to distinguish it from the headphones symbol.
So if the worst comes to the worst I can play the tapes on the cassette
player and pick up the sound with the microphone plugged into the
computer (I found the record function on the sound card - but I've
managed to mislay the microphone...)

> Your cassette player has one of these, too, but
> you'll be better off to use the dual phono plug output from the
> cassette deck (if it has these) and a connecting cord with a pair of
> phono plugs on one end and a stereo mini-phone plug on the other to
> connect them together.

But this is where my shaky technical knowledge starts to break down. By
"dual phono plug output", do you mean the headphones output plug? That
is all I can find on the cassette tape player, along with the microphone
plug.

Connecting cables? Do you mean the other wires that came with the
computer and/or cassette player that are buried deep in a box somewhere,
or would I probably have to buy this connecting cable separately?

> Then just play the tune into the computer and use the "Record"
> application that came with your sound card.
>
> OTOH, if you don't have such an input or such an application you are
> SOL: your sound card probably doesn't have record capability. It might
> be well-hidden though: search thoroughly!

Thanks for the advice!

Tamf Moo

unread,
Nov 1, 2005, 12:14:41 PM11/1/05
to
Christopher Kreuzer spoke softly, shivering:

> But this is where my shaky technical knowledge starts to break down. By
> "dual phono plug output", do you mean the headphones output plug? That
> is all I can find on the cassette tape player, along with the microphone
> plug.

that one will do.



> Connecting cables? Do you mean the other wires that came with the
> computer and/or cassette player that are buried deep in a box somewhere,
> or would I probably have to buy this connecting cable separately?

basically, it's a wire that's "male" in both ends. it looks like the
ending of a headphone wire on both sides. you'll probably have to buy
it, but it's not expensive.

--
Tamf, lellow dwagin and CHOKLIT-eater at your service.

Sah eR şetta gerêşê, mun baranaR werşan.

Paul S. Person

unread,
Nov 1, 2005, 2:35:10 PM11/1/05
to
On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 22:14:29 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer"
<spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

>JimboCat <10313...@compuserve.com> wrote:

<snippo>

>> Your computer has a standard mini-stereo phone plug input: the same
>> plug as a pair of headphones uses (not to be confused with the
>> headphones output!).
>
>Hmm. I know how to plug a microphone into a cassette tape player and
>record sounds. I've found the microphone plug on the computer, with the
>helpful microphone symbol to distinguish it from the headphones symbol.
>So if the worst comes to the worst I can play the tapes on the cassette
>player and pick up the sound with the microphone plugged into the
>computer (I found the record function on the sound card - but I've
>managed to mislay the microphone...)
>
>> Your cassette player has one of these, too, but
>> you'll be better off to use the dual phono plug output from the
>> cassette deck (if it has these) and a connecting cord with a pair of
>> phono plugs on one end and a stereo mini-phone plug on the other to
>> connect them together.
>
>But this is where my shaky technical knowledge starts to break down. By
>"dual phono plug output", do you mean the headphones output plug? That
>is all I can find on the cassette tape player, along with the microphone
>plug.

That should work.

>Connecting cables? Do you mean the other wires that came with the
>computer and/or cassette player that are buried deep in a box somewhere,
>or would I probably have to buy this connecting cable separately?

You might have to buy it separately, unless you've bought one in the
past. I usually start (and finish) with Radio Shack
(http://www.radioshack.com/home/index.jsp), but that is, quite simply,
because there is one on either of my common shopping trips, so it is
very convenient for me. I apologize if I seem to be doing their
advertising for them.

It took a bit of mucking about, but something like
http://www.radioshack.com/search/index.jsp?kw=audio+cables&f=
Taxonomy%2FRSK%2F2032251&cp=2032058.2032228&kwCatId=2032058
&categoryId=2032251&fbc=1&f=PAD%2FCable+Type%2F1-Ft+shielded+stereo+
audio+cable&fbn=Cable+type%2F1-Ft+shielded+stereo+audio+cable

(which is one URL, I have broken it down a bit) might do. The picture
should help you decide if the thing will fit. Note that it is only one
foot long.

I find the website very useful: once you have found your item, if you
prefer not to order it on line, you can find out where the stores near
you are and if they had it in stock at the end of the last business
day, and you can find the Catalogue Number, which is very useful if
you go to the store because it tells the salesperson exactly what you
want and you the assurance that you are getting what you expect.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

JimboCat

unread,
Nov 2, 2005, 12:06:51 PM11/2/05
to
On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 22:14:29 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer"
<spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

Sounds like your cassette player doesn't have a "line out"
connector-pair (often found on the back). These would probably be
labelled "line out" or simply "out" or "output" and they would look
like two buttons a quarter of an inch in diameter with holes in the
middle and extruded about a quarter of an inch out: usually one is red
and the other white or yellow. If you no gots, then you can use the
headphones jack on the cassette player instead (but the sound quality
will suffer).

On the computer end, besides the microphone input you should have a
"line-in" jack that takes the same size of plug: this will be on the
back of the computer most likely.

And yes, you need a connecting cord.

Best case: if you have the line-out on the cassette, the cord you need
has a small 1/8th-inch plug at one end (the metal part has two black
lines separating it into three metal segments lengthwise) and splits
into two at the other end for plugging into the two "phono"
(button-like) line-out jacks on the cassette player.

Otherwise, you need a cord with 1/8th-inch plugs as described on both
ends.

Connect the cassette player's output (headphones or line-out) with the
computer sound card's line-in on the back of the computer. If you use
the headphones jack, adjust the cassette player's volume to low middle
range and the computer's record volume to very near the lowest. Using
the computer's microphone input instead is "not recommended" (but may
work -- poorly).

Good luck!

Jim Deutch (JimboCat)
--
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists
elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us. "
Calvin,Calvin and Hobbes

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