Fall of Arnor
Stephen Geard
The decline and fall of the Kingdom of Arnor is one of the most difficult
things in Middle-earth to explain.
I am compiling a Complete Chronology of Arnor and Gondor (as a sequel to my
Complete Chronology of Numenor:
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~sdgeard/hccnum.html), and have come across some
difficult questions. Does anyone have any thoughts on any of the following:
1. What prompted the division of Arnor into three kingdoms? (Yes, I know
there was dissension among the sons of High King Earendur. But surely there
was dissension among brothers on Numenor and in Gondor, without provoking
divisions?)
2. Where were the chief cities of Cardolan and Rhudaur?
3. How did the Sceptre of Annuminas survive the shipwreck of King Arvedui
and/or the fall of Fornost? (If Arvedui had it with him, it would have been
lost in the shipwreck. Yet if it was back in Fornost, surely the Witch-King
would have grabbed it?)
4. Why does there seem to have been no involvment by the Istari, especially
Gandalf, in the defense of Arnor? (This, I think, is the most difficult
question).
5. Why was no attempt made to re-establish Arnor after the defeat of the
Witch-King, especially as there was a legitimate king, Aranarth son of
Arvedui?
Stephen Geard
Tasmania
Michael Martinez
In article <01bbb123$755cac40$0100007f@default>, "Stephen Geard" <sge...@msn.com> wrote:
>The decline and fall of the Kingdom of Arnor is one of the most difficult
>things in Middle-earth to explain.
>
>I am compiling a Complete Chronology of Arnor and Gondor (as a sequel to my
>Complete Chronology of Numenor:
>http://www.ozemail.com.au/~sdgeard/hccnum.html), and have come across some
>difficult questions. Does anyone have any thoughts on any of the following:
>
>1. What prompted the division of Arnor into three kingdoms? (Yes, I know
>there was dissension among the sons of High King Earendur. But surely there
>was dissension among brothers on Numenor and in Gondor, without provoking
>divisions?)
Maybe one of the people who have purchased volume XII of HOME can answer these
questions.
>2. Where were the chief cities of Cardolan and Rhudaur?
Cardolan shared Tharbad with Gondor after Arnor was divided. I'm not sure of
what exactly Tyrn Gorthad (the Barrow-downs) was, but the Dunedain lived there
and in the South Downs as well.
>3. How did the Sceptre of Annuminas survive the shipwreck of King Arvedui
>and/or the fall of Fornost? (If Arvedui had it with him, it would have been
>lost in the shipwreck. Yet if it was back in Fornost, surely the Witch-King
>would have grabbed it?)
Arvedui could have given the sceptre to Aranarth or some councilor who fled to
Lindon.
>4. Why does there seem to have been no involvment by the Istari, especially
>Gandalf, in the defense of Arnor? (This, I think, is the most difficult
>question).
I've often wondered that myself.
>5. Why was no attempt made to re-establish Arnor after the defeat of the
>Witch-King, especially as there was a legitimate king, Aranarth son of
>Arvedui?
I don't know what THE PEOPLES OF MIDDLE-EARTH has to say about this, but the
Appendix to LOTR states that the lands were largely deserted. The war had
resulted in a great loss of life. It may be that Aranarth felt there were too
few people left to form a kingdom.
Note that Aranarth didn't take up the title of Chieftain of the Dunedain of
the North until 1976, two years after Arnor had been overrun (give or take a
few months).
++ ++ "Well Samwise: What do you think of the elves now?"
||\ /|| --fbag...@mid.earth.com
|| v ||ichael Martinez (mma...@basis.com)
++ ++------------------------------------------------------
Lalaith
mich...@basis.com (Michael Martinez) wrote:
>In article <01bbb123$755cac40$0100007f@default>, "Stephen Geard" <sge...@msn.com> wrote:
>>The decline and fall of the Kingdom of Arnor is one of the most difficult
>>things in Middle-earth to explain.
Exactly.
>>1. What prompted the division of Arnor into three kingdoms? (Yes, I know
>>there was dissension among the sons of High King Earendur. But surely there
>>was dissension among brothers on Numenor and in Gondor, without provoking
>>divisions?)
Bad education. ;-)
>>2. Where were the chief cities of Cardolan and Rhudaur?
>Cardolan shared Tharbad with Gondor after Arnor was divided. I'm not sure of
>what exactly Tyrn Gorthad (the Barrow-downs) was, but the Dunedain lived there
>and in the South Downs as well.
Though it is reasonable to assume that Tharbad was Cardolan's capital,
it was never called such. The barrow-downs had been the final refuge
of the Cardoanrim.
The capital of Rhudaur is never named nor located; but we have dreary
ruins along the Great East Road which may be more than border camps.
>>3. How did the Sceptre of Annuminas survive the shipwreck of King Arvedui
>>and/or the fall of Fornost? (If Arvedui had it with him, it would have been
>>lost in the shipwreck. Yet if it was back in Fornost, surely the Witch-King
>>would have grabbed it?)
Who says that Arvedui has had it? The royal insignia are not always
worn by the king but usually under guard in the treasure. I suppose
that the guardians took it out of Fornost to a safer place (Lindon)
while there still was time.
>>4. Why does there seem to have been no involvment by the Istari, especially
>>Gandalf, in the defense of Arnor? (This, I think, is the most difficult
>>question).
Because Gandalf was interested in small people, not high politics,
Radagast would have found more interest in the royal zoo, and Saruman
and the two Blue were off in Rhun.
>>5. Why was no attempt made to re-establish Arnor after the defeat of the
>>Witch-King, especially as there was a legitimate king, Aranarth son of
>>Arvedui?
>I don't know what THE PEOPLES OF MIDDLE-EARTH has to say about this, but the
>Appendix to LOTR states that the lands were largely deserted. The war had
>resulted in a great loss of life. It may be that Aranarth felt there were too
>few people left to form a kingdom.
Yes, and not only the war but as well the Great Plague largely
eradicated the remaining population, and what little was left
retreated to Dunland. The Rangers and the Bree-folk alone could not
reinstall the Northern Kingdom. Eriador could only have only been
resettled from Gondor, but the latter was always more oriented towards
the East and South.
- Lalaith
Roger Saur
<snip>
>
> >4. Why does there seem to have been no involvment by the Istari, especially
> >Gandalf, in the defense of Arnor? (This, I think, is the most difficult
> >question).
>
> I've often wondered that myself.
>
I'm not sure about that, but didn't the Istari arrive in Middle Earth
*after*
the fall of Arnor?
--
// Roger Saur // sa...@ms.com // Frankfurt,Germany //
Matt Oki
active again. Arnor didn't fall for nearly another 1000 years, in 1975.
Matt
Michael Martinez
In article <325A0D...@ms.com>, Roger Saur <sa...@ms.com> wrote:
>>
>> >4. Why does there seem to have been no involvment by the Istari, especially
>> >Gandalf, in the defense of Arnor? (This, I think, is the most difficult
>> >question).
>>
>> I've often wondered that myself.
>>
>
>I'm not sure about that, but didn't the Istari arrive in Middle Earth
>*after* the fall of Arnor?
>
No, the Istari arrived in Middle-earth sometime in the 11th Century.
Technically, Arnor no longer existed at that time because Arthedain, Rhudaur,
and Cardolan were still viable nations.
From 1350 onward (or thereabouts), Arthedain's kings claimed authority over
all of Arnor's domains.
But after the war of 1407, Rhudaur was just a subject state of Angmar and
there were no more princes in Cardolan. So, technically, Arnor had been
re-established by Arthedain, and it was destroyed in 1974.
Incanus
Roger Saur <sa...@ms.com> wrote:
> > >4. Why does there seem to have been no involvment by the Istari, especially
> > >Gandalf, in the defense of Arnor? (This, I think, is the most difficult
> > >question).
>
> I'm not sure about that, but didn't the Istari arrive in Middle Earth
> *after*
> the fall of Arnor?
It depends on what you men under "fall of Arnor". The Northern Kingdom
itself was divided in 861, after death of king Earendur, while the
Istari came around 1000 TA. However, Arthedain -- which was regarded as
the truest descendant of the ancient kingdom -- didn't perish until
Arvedui the last king drowned in Bay of Forochel in 1975 (it would be
before 21 years, right? :) )
--
Incanus
JeffJErwin
I presume that the Isari were, like Gandalf, relatively subtle.
Considering Gandalf's interests, I think the survival of Breeland and the
Shire might be attributed to his efforts.
Saruman may have a more direct role... who knows?