Sam as a spy
smokyb...@my-deja.com
missing something obvious here.
In A Conspiracy Unmasked, Merry says, referring to Sam's role as an
information gatherer for the others, "Here's our collector of
information! And he collected a lot, I can tell you, before he was
finally caught. After which, I may say, he seemed to regard himself as
on parole, and dried up."
This doesn't make sense to me. Up until the arrival of Gandalf in
Hobbiton for the final time in April, very little is known of the ring.
Gandalf advises Frodo after Bilbo's departure for Rivendell "I should
not make use of it, if I were you. But keep it secret, and keep it
safe!" During the following years Gandalf visits relatively frequently
but confines his interest to "small news about Frodo's health and
doings." Then he disappears for nine years only to return on the
evening of April 13th "as Sam was walking home and the twilight was
fading."
The following morning Frodo begins the major discussion concerning the
ring "Last night you began to tell me strange things about my ring,
Gandalf," Sam is outside gardening at this point. Gandalf tells Frodo
what he knows about the story of the ring, eventually Frodo realises
that he must leave The Shire on the quest to Mount Doom. At this point,
Sam is caught listening outside the window.
My question is. What information could Sam possibly have imparted to
Pippin, Merry and Freddy before getting caught? They knew that Frodo
had to leave, "You have obviously been planning to go and saying
farewell to all your haunts this year since April." This however does
not account for their knowledge of the nature of the ring, which could
not have come from Sam as he was caught on his first attempt at
eavesdropping. I am sure that his promise to Frodo and Gandalf would
have kept his mouth shut.
Any ideas?
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Anthony Rebello
smokyb...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
<snip>
>
> My question is. What information could Sam possibly have imparted to
> Pippin, Merry and Freddy before getting caught? They knew that Frodo
> had to leave, "You have obviously been planning to go and saying
> farewell to all your haunts this year since April." This however does
> not account for their knowledge of the nature of the ring, which could
> not have come from Sam as he was caught on his first attempt at
> eavesdropping. I am sure that his promise to Frodo and Gandalf would
> have kept his mouth shut.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
>
information he overheard the day he was caught. By drying up it is
meant that he stopped eavesdropping. It is clear from the conversation
at Crickhollow that the conspiracy knew at least some of the details of
Frodo and Gandalf's conversation the day Sam was caught.
I think the information Sam was gathering prior to his being caught
was chiefly details about Frodo's doings, which the conspiracy used to
guess if he was planning to depart the Shire. IIRC the conspiracy was
formed out of fear that Frodo would give his friends the slip and leave
without them, not to specifically unravel the mystery of Bilbo's ring.
smokyb...@my-deja.com
Anthony Rebello <areb...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> In article <8fu2et$t4i$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> smokyb...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
> <snip>
> >
> > My question is. What information could Sam possibly have imparted to
> > Pippin, Merry and Freddy before getting caught? They knew that Frodo
> > had to leave, "You have obviously been planning to go and saying
> > farewell to all your haunts this year since April." This however
does
> > not account for their knowledge of the nature of the ring, which
could
> > not have come from Sam as he was caught on his first attempt at
> > eavesdropping. I am sure that his promise to Frodo and Gandalf would
> > have kept his mouth shut.
> >
> > Any ideas?
> >
> > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> > Before you buy.
> >
> I disagree. I think that Sam dried up after imparting the
> information he overheard the day he was caught. By drying up it is
> meant that he stopped eavesdropping. It is clear from the
conversation
> at Crickhollow that the conspiracy knew at least some of the details
of
> Frodo and Gandalf's conversation the day Sam was caught.
No, Sam stopped eavesdropping as soon as Gandalf caught him on his
first attempt, and I don't buy that Sam told the others.
"I shall have to go. But" - and here he looked hard at Sam - "if you
really care about me you will keep that *dead* secret. See? If you
don't then I hope Gandalf will turn you into a spotted toad and fill
the garden full of grass snakes."
Sam fell on his knees trembling.
> I think the information Sam was gathering prior to his being caught
> was chiefly details about Frodo's doings, which the conspiracy used to
> guess if he was planning to depart the Shire. IIRC the conspiracy was
> formed out of fear that Frodo would give his friends the slip and
leave
> without them, not to specifically unravel the mystery of Bilbo's ring.
>
But Frodo had given no previous cause for concern, as he knew nothing
of the ring until Gandalf told him, Frodo had no plans to leave The
Shire before the events of that April morning. There was nothing to spy
on.
Aris Katsaris
<smokyb...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8fub83$7jp$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
He knew nothing of the ring? He certainly knew that the ring had the power
to make people invisible, that it came from the Misty Mountains and a
creature named Gollum...
Aris Katsaris
Andrew Wells
I posted this very query a few months ago, but got no response (possibly my
ISP's fault - at the time, many of my postings weren't been seen by others).
Andrew
--
Andrew Wells
Replace nospam with my first name to reach me
Eruadan
> I disagree. I think that Sam dried up after imparting the
> information he overheard the day he was caught. By drying up it is
> meant that he stopped eavesdropping. It is clear from the
conversation
> at Crickhollow that the conspiracy knew at least some of the details
of
> Frodo and Gandalf's conversation the day Sam was caught.
But, during that conversation, it is also revealed that Merry and Pippen
knew of Bilbo and
his Ring long ago. They also couldn't have missed that Frodo loved
Bilbo, and after he
left would wish to eventually follow him.
Frodo may not have _thought_ he was acting strange, but he did
_something_ to attract
their attention. And not all that recently.
> I think the information Sam was gathering prior to his being caught
> was chiefly details about Frodo's doings, which the conspiracy used to
> guess if he was planning to depart the Shire. IIRC the conspiracy was
> formed out of fear that Frodo would give his friends the slip and
leave
> without them, not to specifically unravel the mystery of Bilbo's ring.
The information that Sam passed on to M&P would probably have been
nothing more than a
daily account of what "Mr. Frodo" had going thru, and whom he had spoken
with. Please realize,
you can get quite a bit of information about a person by going thru his
trash.
Having said that, I will say that there was ample opportunity to
determine that Frodo
was going to have to do _something_, and likely it would involve making
drastic changes in
the populace of Bag End.
Eruadan
--
<*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*>
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, because to them
you are small, insignificant, and taste good with ketchup
Warren Chang
>Forgive me if this has been discussed before, but I get the feeling
>I'm missing something obvious here.
>
>In A Conspiracy Unmasked, Merry says, referring to Sam's role as an
>information gatherer for the others, "Here's our collector of
>information! And he collected a lot, I can tell you, before he was
>finally caught. After which, I may say, he seemed to regard himself
>as on parole, and dried up."
>
Smoky:
Your spotting of the logical inconsistencies in the story and distrust
of Sam is highly perceptive, but only a scratch on the surface of
things. You see, in addition to being gluttonous sneaks, Hobbits are
notorious revisionists. Let us not forget that the so-called "Red
Book of Westmarch" is supposedly written by Bilbo and Frodo Baggins,
but was "entrusted" to Sam along with the rest of the family fortune
after the two Bagginses "went to the Grey Havens" with Sam as the lone
witness. Make no mistake: in reality, Merry and Pippin did not come
riding up at the last minute. The additional witnesses were written
in long after the fact.
The true hero in the story of the Destruction of the Ring is Smeagol,
cruelly dubbed "Gollum" in the Red Book. The whole concept of
destroying the Ring was a silly one to begin with, originating with
Gandalf the Grey Fool (see http://www.speakeasy.org/~ohh/gandolt.htm
for the full story there); but even operating within that set of
parameters, Frodo, Merry and Pippin were well-intentioned folk whose
primary fault was to believe everything Gandalf said, yet were very
nearly destroyed (along with everything else) by the trusted but
envious manservant Samwise.
The Red Book claims that the Ringwraiths had finally learned of the
Ring's location in the Shire from the capturing and interrogation of
Smeagol, and had just got there right when the hobbits were leaving
for Rivendell. But doesn't the extremely close timing seem
suspiciously coincidental? I mean, Sauron was supposed to have caught
"Gollum" years earlier. What took them so long to locate the Shire?
The truth is that Sam, who had been working for Frodo for quite low
pay for pretty much his whole life, had sold out to Sauron not much
earlier. He had been going along with Merry and Pippin's plan to find
out the reason for Frodo's sudden travel plans, but once he learned
that it had to do with Mordor and the Great Ring, his mind darted back
to the propaganda pamphlet that Bill Ferny from Bree had given him a
while back.
"WORKERS OF THE WORLD, UNITE!" was emblazoned in large bold letters
on the top, with a large logo of a lidless eye as a watermark. It was
very exciting and spoke to his deep-seated resentment of his
socio-economic lot. Born to be a tiller of the rich man's soil as his
father was before him... never received a formal education... By the
time he had finished reading the pamphlet, he was ready to bolt for
Mordor S.S.R. and to hell with Frodo's shrubbery. But something
told him to wait.
When he heard about the Ring, he immediately stopped talking to Merry
and Pippin, but sent word to Bill Ferny and appointed himself as an
inside saboteur to the job. He took care to tuck the pamphlet in his
jacket lining, as there was a Mordor "blood chit" pass written on the
back guaranteeing safety and good treatment to the bearer, along with
a map of various routes to key Mordor posts: Minas Morgul, the Tower
with the Two Watchers, etc.
Bombadil foiled his attempt to have the Ring captured at the Barrows;
then, Aragorn foiled his attempt to have the Ring seized in Bree. He
did manage to summon the Balrog in Moria, but was stymied by Frodo's
mithril coat ("health insurance is only for the rich"). He managed to
separate the Nine Walkers from Frodo after they left Lothlorien, and
would have marched Frodo right up Minas Morgul and turned him over to
the Witch King... but Smeagol inserted himself into the picture.
It is undeniable that Smeagol had been enslaved by desire for the
Ring, and had come out from under the mountain in search of it.
However, he was not caught and interrogated by Sauron; how could he
possibly have survived that? No, he had been found by Saruman the
White, who put through a rigorous twelve-step program to free him of
his torment.
Smeagol crossed paths with Frodo and Sam by purest chance, but it was
a good thing he did. The long years with the Ring had taught him to
see malicious plotting by a malcontent when he saw it, and it was all
over Sam's face. When he found that he could not convince Frodo to
hand the Ring over to him (to bring to Saruman), he felt that the only
thing left for him to do was to follow them and make sure Sam didn't
get a chance to give the Ring away.
In reality, it was Smeagol who picked up Sting and defied Shelob (whom
he had known nothing about); Smeagol who forced Sam to give the Ring
back to Frodo after breaking them out of the Tower; and Smeagol who
ultimately had to beat down Sam to wrest control of the Ring from
Frodo and leap into Orodruin's fiery depths, nobly giving himself up
to save the world.
The cunning Sam managed to conceal his true motives the entire time.
However, within a few years of returning to the Shire, he was able to
engineer Frodo's disappearance, producing genuine-seeming legal
documents showing that he was now the heir to the Baggins fortune.
Merry and Pippin were a little suspicious, but Sam managed to paint
such a convincing picture of how close he had been to Frodo and
glorified his "dear master" so much to everybody that nobody gave it
much of a closer look.
As they say: the TRUTH is OUT THERE!
------
SYSTEM NOTE: /dev/earth is 95% full. Please delete anyone you can.
smokyb...@my-deja.com
"Aris Katsaris" <kats...@otenet.gr> wrote:
> He knew nothing of the ring? He certainly knew that the ring had the
power
> to make people invisible, that it came from the Misty Mountains and a
> creature named Gollum...
>
> Aris Katsaris
>
Sam may well have known whatever Bilbo had imparted to the rest of the
hobbits of The Shire in terms of reminiscences, songs, "poetry" etc,
but this was common knowledge, available to the whole community thus
there was no need for him to spy.
The true story of the ring was only told to Gandalf and Frodo. In
addition, it seems as though Bilbo had tried to keep the ring a secret
so it is quite probable that he ommitted any ring related details from
his retelling of his adventure.
Pippin, however, had some suspicion. He had snuck a peek at Bilbo's
memoirs and had witnessed Bilbo using the ring once but that was at a
distance and all Pippin saw was a flash of gold in Bilbo's hand before
he disappeared. It still does not explain why Sam was spying on Frodo.
Smoky.
smokyb...@my-deja.com
warre...@newyorkcityc.om (Warren Chang) wrote:
LOL. Now all is clear. Except:
Sam's dad wasn't a tiller of the earth, he was apprenticed as a
gardener to his uncle;
Sauron wanted to keep the Nazgul East of Anduin until the last possible
moment, he did have other spies (I prefer Pippin as the agent of Sauron
not Sam, Pippin always struck me as being a right nosy bugger) but the
Rangers were guarding The Shire.
The truth is in there.
smokyb...@my-deja.com
"Andrew Wells" <nos...@wellinghall.force9.co.uk> wrote:
> <snips all>
>
> I posted this very query a few months ago, but got no response
(possibly my
> ISP's fault - at the time, many of my postings weren't been seen by
others).
>
> Andrew
> --
Happens to us all sometime.
Do you think this is a textual inconsistency then?
Piotr Auksztulewicz
> Pippin, however, had some suspicion. He had snuck a peek at Bilbo's
It was Merry.
> memoirs and had witnessed Bilbo using the ring once but that was at a
> distance and all Pippin saw was a flash of gold in Bilbo's hand before
> he disappeared. It still does not explain why Sam was spying on Frodo.
Because Merry&Pippin were suspicious and thought that Frodo may
suddenly disappear as once Bilbo had. They didn't want to let him
go alone wherever he planned to go, but I think they didn't know
at first what the real reason was.
`Yes, the Ring,' said Merry. `My dear old hobbit, you don't allow for the
inquisitiveness of friends. I have known about the existence of the Ring
for years --- before Bilbo went away, in fact; but since he obviously
regarded it as secret, I kept the knowledge in my head, until we formed
our conspiracy. I did not know Bilbo, of course, as well as I know you;
I was too young, and he was also more careful --- but he was not careful
enough. If you want to know how I first found out, I will tell you.'
`Go on!' said Frodo faintly.
`It was the Sackville-Bagginses that were his downfall, as you might
expect. One day, a year before the Party, I happened to be walking along
the road, when I saw Bilbo ahead. Suddenly in the distance the S.-B.s
appeared, coming towards us. Bilbo slowed down, and then hey presto! he
vanished. I was so startled that I hardly had the wits to hide myself in
a more ordinary fashion; but I got through the hedge and walked along the
field inside. I was peeping through into the road, after the S.-B.s had
passed, and was looking straight at Bilbo when he suddenly reappeared. I
caught a glint of gold as he put something back in his trouser-pocket.
`After that I kept my eyes open. In fact, I confess that I spied. But
you must admit that it was very intriguing, and I was only in my teens. I
must be the only one in the Shire, besides you Frodo, that has ever seen
the old fellow's secret book.'
`You have read his book!' cried Frodo. `Good heavens above! Is nothing
safe?'
`Not too safe, I should say,' said Merry. `But I have only had one rapid
glance, and that was difficult to get. He never left the book about. I
wonder what became of it. I should like another look. Have you got it,
Frodo?'
--
Piotr Auksztulewicz pio...@zeus.polsl.gliwice.pl
Centrum Komputerowe Politechniki Śląskiej, Gliwice, Akademicka 16
Eruadan
> Smoky:
>
> Your spotting of the logical inconsistencies in the story and distrust
> of Sam is highly perceptive, but only a scratch on the surface of
> things. You see, in addition to being gluttonous sneaks, Hobbits are
> notorious revisionists. Let us not forget that the so-called "Red
> Book of Westmarch" is supposedly written by Bilbo and Frodo Baggins,
[snip]
O.Sharp, are you goinf to gpu this on the Sarcasm Page?
> ------
> SYSTEM NOTE: /dev/earth is 95% full. Please delete anyone you can.
May have a point, here.
Eruadan
--
<*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*>
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, because to them
you are small, insignificant, and taste good with ketchup
dara...@my-deja.com
think this is a textual inconsistency then?"
Dear Smoke,
IMO, this is not a textual inquiry. Sam's spying was not focusing on
the Ring, but on Frodo's plans to leave the Shire (which his friends
were quite unaware of until Sam started filling them in).
Take Care,
Paul
Andrew Wells
>In article <8fuk4f$cfq3$1...@fu-berlin.de>,
> "Andrew Wells" <nos...@wellinghall.force9.co.uk> wrote:
>> <snips all>
>>
>> I posted this very query a few months ago, but got no response
>(possibly my
>> ISP's fault - at the time, many of my postings weren't been seen by
>others).
>>
>
Yes, ja, da, oui, certainly, absolutely.
the softrat
<nos...@wellinghall.force9.co.uk> wrote:
>Yes, ja, da, oui, certainly, absolutely.
Affoimative - Curly.
the softrat
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
"If you ever reach total enlightenment while you're drinking a beer,
I bet it makes beer shoot out your nose."
--Jack Handy
smokyb...@my-deja.com
dara...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Smokybarnable question to Mr. Wells re his/her Sam theory: "Do you
> think this is a textual inconsistency then?"
>
>
> IMO, this is not a textual inquiry. Sam's spying was not focusing
on
> the Ring, but on Frodo's plans to leave the Shire (which his friends
> were quite unaware of until Sam started filling them in).
>
> Take Care,
>
> Paul
>
I've still got my doubts.
a) Bilbo vanished from The Shire in 3001 TA, Frodo went on his quest in
3018. This means that Merry would have been "spying" for 17 years,
which I think is unlikely given that Frodo showed no sign whatsoever of
wanting to leave Bag End until the visit of Gandalf in April 3018.
b) I think that if I had a friend who's guardian had disappeared and I
suspected that he might want to follow him at some stage I'd probably
just ask "Hey, Frodo. If you're ever thinking of wandering off into the
blue to look for Bilbo, just tell us will you?"
Smoky
smokyb...@my-deja.com
smokyb...@my-deja.com wrote something and made mistakes.
>
> Sam's dad wasn't a tiller of the earth, he was apprenticed as a
> gardener to his uncle;
Ooops. The gaffer was a tiller of the earth as a gardener, twas he that
was apprenticed to old holman his uncle.
> Sauron wanted to keep the Nazgul East of Anduin until the last
possible
> moment, he did have other spies (I prefer Pippin as the agent of
Sauron
> not Sam, Pippin always struck me as being a right nosy bugger) but the
> Rangers were guarding The Shire.
>
Oops again, I meant Merry.
Just goes to show nobody reads these things. Well not mine anyway.
(sniffs)
Smoky
dara...@my-deja.com
from The Shire in 3001 TA, Frodo went on his quest in 3018. This means
that Merry would have been "spying" for 17 years, which I think is
unlikely given that Frodo showed no sign whatsoever of wanting to leave
Bag End until the visit of Gandalf in April 3018. b) I think that if I
had a friend who's guardian had disappeared and I suspected that he
might want to follow him at some stage I'd probably just ask "Hey,
Frodo. If you're ever thinking of wandering off into the blue to look
for Bilbo, just tell us will you?"
Dear Smoky,
IMO, the 'spying' I was refering to occurred in early 3018 and was
accomplished by Sam. As you alluded to above, Frodo had no desire to
leave Bag End until then. Both Merry and Pippin knew Frodo had this
secret magic ring that he used (and Bilbo had used) to get out of
awkward situations. Sam's spying was to gain info on Frodo's 'real'
plans, since Merry/Pippin thought his cover story of running out of
money/have to sell house to Sackville-Baggins was ludicrous.
I certainly agree with your point in 'b'. I too would just ask, but
evidently these Hobbits were a repressed lot and liked to beat around
the bush alot :).
Enjoy hearing your views on Tolkien.
Cheers,
Paul
Ermanna
dara...@my-deja.com wrote:
<shnip>
> Frodo had this
> secret magic ring that he used (and Bilbo had used) to get out of
> awkward situations.
Only Bilbo, as far as we know. Gandalf warned Frodo against it quite
clearly, and, personally, I don't think Frodo would do anything that he
said not to do.
<shnip>
> Cheers,
>
> Paul
Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight
Ewoks are Hobbits!
Ermanna
smokyb...@my-deja.com wrote:
<shnip>
> Just goes to show nobody reads these things. Well not mine anyway.
> (sniffs)
<pats Smoky's shoulder>
Oh, we do, Smoky. We do.
> Smoky
dara...@my-deja.com
Frodo against it quite clearly, and, personally, I don't think Frodo
would do anything that he said not to do."
Dear Ermanna,
Hope everything is going well with you. As far as your comment
above, I thought that Frodo (early in his stewardship of the Ring), was
observed by either Merry or Pippin to have used it to escape when he
came upon the SBs riding down a road. IIRC, one of them (Merry/Pippin)
relays this story to Frodo. Maybe I'm mistaken and it was Bilbo they
were talking about, but I thought it was Frodo. I do find it a little
hard to believe that the first time Frodo ever put Ring on his finger
was at Bombadils.
Either way, Merry and Pippin had some limited knowledge of the Ring
prior to events of 3018, and that dovetails with my comments in my
previous post that Sam was spying to find out what Frodo was really up
to vis a vis leaving the Shire.
May the Force be with You,
Steuard Jensen
> > Frodo had this secret magic ring that he used (and Bilbo had used)
> > to get out of awkward situations.
Quoth sa...@aol.com:
> Only Bilbo, as far as we know. Gandalf warned Frodo against it quite
> clearly, and, personally, I don't think Frodo would do anything that
> he said not to do.
I don't know... I find it hard to believe that Frodo would go so many
years without even trying the Ring once. I know that in his place I
would have been extremely curious, anyway, and the Ring clearly had no
really terrible visible effects on Bilbo before he left. I _don't_
think he used it often, but I feel almost certain that he'd used it at
least once or twice. Two pieces of evidence (I think I've posted
others, and more detailed arguments on this topic in general, in other
threads in the past):
1) In Bombadil's house, Frodo puts on the Ring and creeps away to
verify that it is in fact his Ring. I just don't see him using
this as a test unless he already felt that he had some decent
understanding of what wearing the Ring was like. More importantly,
if the guy actually had the strength of will to overcome every
ounce of curiosity in his body for _seventeen years_, I just can't
believe that he would so nonchalantly put the thing on to "test"
it. In that scenario, I would have expected him to really struggle
with the conflict between the need to verify that he had the real
Ring and his overwhelming desire to follow Gandalf's advice. We
see no such internal struggle: he just pops on the Ring and heads
for the door.
2) In Gandalf's letter to Frodo, he writes "Do NOT use It again".
Now, Gandalf clearly knew nothing about Frodo using the Ring at
Bombadil's house: the letter was written months earlier. The only
explanation that I can see for this comment is that Frodo _had_
used the Ring before, and had told Gandalf so at some point. (I
can certainly imagine Gandalf asking, and I can't see Frodo being
anything but honest with him.)
Incidentally, this belief of mine is why I included a reference in my
parody chapter to Frodo having at least one "adventure" with the Ring,
despite Ojevind's "wed to celibacy" remark. :)
Steuard Jensen