Legolas' relationship with Aragorn and the children of Elrond
Karina Maharani
friendship with Aragorn and often with Elladan, Elrohir, and Arwen
prior to joining the Fellowship. I always thought that this was
clearly shown in the books but after rereading it recently this seems
very unlikely.
In the chapter Lothlorien in FoTR:
'It is long since any of my own folk journeyed hither back to the land
whence we wandered in ages long ago,' said Legolas, 'but we hear that
Lórien is not yet deserted, for there is a secret power here that
holds evil from the land. Nevertheless its folk are seldom seen, and
maybe they dwell now deep in the woods and far from the northern
border.'
This seems to imply that Legolas does not know about Galadriel and
Celeborn and the rest of the Galadhrim, which would be very odd if
Legolas is friends with Elrond's children; Galadriel is after all
their grandmother. Even if he was only friends with Aragorn, I would
imagine that Aragorn would mention this at one time or another, at
least in connection to his relationship with Arwen. I guess its
possible that Aragorn kept this secret (what with his grim moods and
all) but I don't think its very likely if they knew other very well
prior to the Fellowship; even Bilbo, who can't have spent *that* much
time with Aragorn, seemed to know a lot about Aragorn's private life.
So, in short, I'm wondering: Legolas' friendship with Aragorn and
Elrond's kids prior to the Felowship, fanon or canon?
derek
wrote:
> So, in short, I'm wondering: Legolas' friendship with Aragorn and
> Elrond's kids prior to the Felowship, fanon or canon?
Cute. "Fanon", for sure. There's no indication, that I remember, at
the Council of Elrond that any of the participants have ever met
Legolas, even though Bilbo at least has been to his father's domain,
and dickered with him after the Battle of Five Armies.
Thorsten Michels
>
> This seems to imply that Legolas does not know about Galadriel and
> Celeborn and the rest of the Galadhrim, which would be very odd if
> Legolas is friends with Elrond's children;
I think it would be very odd if the son of King Thranduil doesn't know
about Galadriel and Celeborn.
Greetings,
Thorsten
--
Thorsten Michels
mic...@informatik.uni-kl.de
DrNethack on #awg
One's never alone with a rubber duck. (Douglas Adams)
Steuard Jensen
Thorsten Michels <mic...@informatik.uni-kl.de> wrote:
> Karina Maharani <maharani....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> This seems to imply that Legolas does not know about Galadriel and
>> Celeborn and the rest of the Galadhrim, which would be very odd if
>> Legolas is friends with Elrond's children;
> I think it would be very odd if the son of King Thranduil doesn't
> know about Galadriel and Celeborn.
Agreed, and to my eye it's clear that he does know *about* them. The
real question is whether he knows anything about what they've been up
to *lately* (where "lately" might mean "in the past fifty or hundred
years"). The impression I've always gotten from that evidence is that
the Elves of Mirkwood were a fairly insular group (much like the Elves
of Lorien, come to think of it) and didn't really travel much beyond
their raft trips to the Long Lake.
But there's still some hope of finding earlier connections between
Legolas and Aragorn, Elladan, and Elrohir, because the latter three
were all known for journeying widely in the world. (At least, I
/think/ I recall the sons of Elrond having that reputation.) I
wouldn't be surprised if all three had been to Thranduil's kingdom at
some point, and I could certainly imagine them meeting Legolas
there. Whether they would have had any chance to form lasting
friendships is more questionable, but I suppose they could have had
some sort of "adventures" together in the region. And in any case, I
can easily imagine conversations that touched on Galadriel and Lorien
without bothering to go into details about where the Galadhrim were
living at the time.
I guess my short take on the original question is that it's not
entirely implausible that Legolas could have known and even befriended
Aragorn, etc. before the Council of Elrond, but I don't think it's an
obvious or even especially natural conclusion.
It's a little odd, really: Legolas's comments upon entering Lorien
make it sound like his people haven't had any real contact with the
Galadhrim for many, many years, which seems like decent evidence that
(among other things) Thranduil wasn't particularly involved with the
White Council (further evidence: he was feasting in Mirkwood while
Gandalf et al. were driving Sauron from Dol Guldur). And yet,
Thranduil's kingdom was for some reason the place that Aragorn and
Gandalf put Gollum for safekeeping! I don't recall any clear
explanation of that choice (what am I forgetting, folks?). It's
almost as if they were reluctant to share what they were up to with
the broader Council. Was Gandalf deliberately concealing his discovery
of Gollum from Saruman?
Steuard Jensen
No One in Particular
"Steuard Jensen" <ste...@slimy.com> wrote in message
news:slrnigj31f....@steuard.local...
>>
> It's a little odd, really: Legolas's comments upon entering Lorien
> make it sound like his people haven't had any real contact with the
> Galadhrim for many, many years, which seems like decent evidence that
> (among other things) Thranduil wasn't particularly involved with the
> White Council (further evidence: he was feasting in Mirkwood while
> Gandalf et al. were driving Sauron from Dol Guldur). And yet,
> Thranduil's kingdom was for some reason the place that Aragorn and
> Gandalf put Gollum for safekeeping! I don't recall any clear
> explanation of that choice (what am I forgetting, folks?). It's
> almost as if they were reluctant to share what they were up to with
> the broader Council. Was Gandalf deliberately concealing his discovery
> of Gollum from Saruman?
>
> Steuard Jensen
Perhaps not necessarily from Saruman in particular, but from just general
knowledge. Lord knows, they'd had a problem with treachery in the past...
Brian
--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ne...@netfront.net ---
Steve Morrison
> It's a little odd, really: Legolas's comments upon entering Lorien
> make it sound like his people haven't had any real contact with the
> Galadhrim for many, many years, which seems like decent evidence that
> (among other things) Thranduil wasn't particularly involved with the
> White Council (further evidence: he was feasting in Mirkwood while
> Gandalf et al. were driving Sauron from Dol Guldur). And yet,
> Thranduil's kingdom was for some reason the place that Aragorn and
> Gandalf put Gollum for safekeeping! I don't recall any clear
> explanation of that choice (what am I forgetting, folks?). It's
> almost as if they were reluctant to share what they were up to with
> the broader Council. Was Gandalf deliberately concealing his discovery
> of Gollum from Saruman?
I had more or less assumed it was simply the nearest trustworthy
place where Aragorn /could/ have taken Gollum; after all, he was
eager to get rid of him. OTOH, the relevant passage from "The
Council of Elrond" implies that there was a prior agreement to
bring Gollum to Thranduil's realm:
I deemed it the worst part of all my journey, the road back,
watching him day and night, making him walk before me with a
halter on his neck, gagged, until he was tamed by lack of drink
and food, driving him ever towards Mirkwood. I brought him
there at last and gave him to the Elves, for we had agreed that
this should be done; and I was glad to be rid of his company,
for he stank.
Bill O'Meally
<snip>
> I brought him
> there at last and gave him to the Elves, for we had agreed that
> this should be done; and I was glad to be rid of his company,
> for he stank.
That last line always makes me laugh. How bad must Gollum have stunk
for a Ranger, who probably doesn't get more than a semi-annual bath
himself, to take offense?!
--
Bill O'Meally
"Wise Fool" -- Gandalf, _The Two Towers_
(The Wise will remove 'se' to reach me. The Foolish will not!)
Osric
wrote:
> In fanfiction, Legolas is almost always portrayed as having a close
> friendship with Aragorn and often with Elladan, Elrohir, and Arwen
> prior to joining the Fellowship. I always thought that this was
> clearly shown in the books but after rereading it recently this seems
> very unlikely.
>
> In the chapter Lothlorien in FoTR:
>
> | 'It is long since any of my own folk journeyed hither back to the land
> | whence we wandered in ages long ago,' said Legolas, 'but we hear that
> | Lórien is not yet deserted, for there is a secret power here that
> | holds evil from the land. Nevertheless its folk are seldom seen, and
> | maybe they dwell now deep in the woods and far from the northern
> | border.'
> So, in short, I'm wondering: Legolas' friendship with Aragorn and
> Elrond's kids prior to the Felowship, fanon or canon?
The only counter-argument I could find was Celeborn's:
| ”Welcome, son of Thranduil! Too seldom do my kindred journey hither
from the North.”
So occasionally (in elven terms!) the "kindred" of Celeborn journey
from Mirkwood to Lorien. But it is long since any of Legolas' "own
folk" did so. The only wiggle-room allowing for any sort of contact
between the two silvan realms is to interpret the statements regarding
Celeborn's "kindred" and Legolas' "own folk" as referring to their own
blood relatives: the Sindar leaders of the respective realms, as
opposed to the regular wood-elves who make up the majority of both
populations.
So in short, the answer is that canon strongly indicates it ain't
so.
(It may be fanon in some fan circles, but not in any of mine.)
It may seem unlikely to most readers' sensibilities that all these
good guys could exist in the world and not all have ongoing relations
and alliances with one another against the encroaching forces of the
Darkness. But that's part of the darkness of the tale: Middle-earth
in the time of the War of the Ring has all the Free Peoples having
fallen from their heydays, travel and commerce is rare outside of
Gondor, and folk are isolated and mistrustful. (We could see some
sort of corrupting influence of the darkness at work here, but it's
not provable within canon.) This doesn't leave a lot of room for fan-
fiction dealing with friendly relations between anyone.
Cheers,
--Os.
Morgoth's Curse
<ste...@slimy.com> wrote:
>It's a little odd, really: Legolas's comments upon entering Lorien
>make it sound like his people haven't had any real contact with the
>Galadhrim for many, many years, which seems like decent evidence that
>(among other things) Thranduil wasn't particularly involved with the
>White Council (further evidence: he was feasting in Mirkwood while
>Gandalf et al. were driving Sauron from Dol Guldur). And yet,
>Thranduil's kingdom was for some reason the place that Aragorn and
>Gandalf put Gollum for safekeeping! I don't recall any clear
>explanation of that choice (what am I forgetting, folks?). It's
>almost as if they were reluctant to share what they were up to with
>the broader Council. Was Gandalf deliberately concealing his discovery
>of Gollum from Saruman?
already mistrusted Saruman) may have desired to keep Gollum away from
isengard, but it seems more plausible to me that he simply didn't have
many choices.
Two things are obvious to Gandalf and Aragorn as they search for
Gollum. The first is that he is likely to be found in unpleasant
areas. They know that he has already passed through Mirkwood twice:
Once during his journey to the Lonely Mountain and again as he sought
the Shire. They also know that, according to the Elves who had
tracked him, the trail turned southward before he reached Anduin.
Gollum is therefore likely on the east side of the river and, south of
Mirkwood, that is all Sauron's turf.
It's equally obvious that even if Gollum can be found and
captured, that news cannot be concealed from the spies of Enemy
forever. Every moment that passes is another opportunity for Gollum
to escape or for Aragorn to be attacked by the servants of Sauron.
So what are their options? Gondor, Lorien and Mirkwood. (Erebor
and Rivendell are both too far away.) Gondor is out of the question
because Gandalf does not trust Denethor and, more importantly, someone
might recognize Aragorn as the long-lost Thorongil. That would cause
more problems than any gain would justify; therefore Gondor is not an
option. (Rohan is also out of the question for similar reasons as
well as the fact that it is too near to Isengard.)
There are also compelling reasons why Lorien will not suffice.
The Galadhrim have no tradition of imprisonment and hence are not
suitable jailers. I also suspect that Galadriel and Celeborn would
have objected to the idea of allowing Gollum into Lorien. Celeborn
refused to allow any Dwarves to enter his land; he certainly would not
have been thrilled by the presence of a cannibalistic wretch like
Gollum. It's also possible that Gollum himself would not survive
imprisonment in Lorien as per his reaction to the mere touch of the
Elvish rope that Frodo and Sam tried to bind him with.
So...that leaves Thrainduil. His realm is on the east side of
the river; it is closer than any other place where Gollum might be
held securely (and yet treated humanely); and Thrainduil owes Gandalf
a favor or two. It also offers a measure of concealment for Aragorn
as he drives Gollum through Mirkwood. Mirkwood may be full of
Sauron's creatures, but he seems to have had few servants near the
Elvish path to Thrainduil's palace.
In short, Mirkwood is the only acceptable location where Gollum
can be imprisoned and interrogated.
Morgoth's Curse
Morgoth's Curse
<maharani....@gmail.com> wrote:
>In fanfiction, Legolas is almost always portrayed as having a close
>friendship with Aragorn and often with Elladan, Elrohir, and Arwen
>prior to joining the Fellowship. I always thought that this was
>clearly shown in the books but after rereading it recently this seems
>very unlikely.
>
>In the chapter Lothlorien in FoTR:
>
>'It is long since any of my own folk journeyed hither back to the land
>whence we wandered in ages long ago,' said Legolas, 'but we hear that
>maybe they dwell now deep in the woods and far from the northern
>border.'
>
>This seems to imply that Legolas does not know about Galadriel and
>Celeborn and the rest of the Galadhrim, which would be very odd if
>Legolas is friends with Elrond's children; Galadriel is after all
>their grandmother. Even if he was only friends with Aragorn, I would
>imagine that Aragorn would mention this at one time or another, at
>least in connection to his relationship with Arwen. I guess its
>possible that Aragorn kept this secret (what with his grim moods and
>all) but I don't think its very likely if they knew other very well
>prior to the Fellowship; even Bilbo, who can't have spent *that* much
>time with Aragorn, seemed to know a lot about Aragorn's private life.
>
>So, in short, I'm wondering: Legolas' friendship with Aragorn and
>Elrond's kids prior to the Felowship, fanon or canon?
Gollum to Thrainduil in Mirkwood after he had captured him near the
Dead Marshes), but I think it is extremely unlikely that they were
ever friends. In fact, my impression is that their friendship did not
truly begin until the Company arrived in Lorien.
During the first stage of the journey to the mountains, Aragorn
was just another companion whose importance (so far as Legolas knew)
was primarily that he was heir to the throne of a far kingdom in which
Legolas had no interest. Their relationship would have been cordial
(for such was their nature) but not especially close.
The terror and tragedy of Moria transformed their relationship.
Aragorn's willingness to admit his own mistakes after their failure to
climb the pass of Caradhras; to face the Balrog that terrified
Legolas; to accept the dreadful burden of the leadership of the
Company after the fall of Gandalf; and the high regard in which
Galadriel & Celeborn held Aragorn would have certainly impressed
Legolas far more than any words even from Gandalf and Elrond. It is
well-known that the friendship of Legolas and Gimli began in Lorien,
but I believe that is also when the friendship of Aragorn and Legolas
started as well.
Morgoth's Curse
Paul S. Person
fast friend of Aragon from the beginning. So I suppose it would be
"fanon".
--
"Nature must be explained in
her own terms through
the experience of our senses."
Morgoth's Curse
>Elrond's kids prior to the Felowship, fanon or canon?
friends is much more vexing. They certainly knew of each other's
existence. Elrond obviously would have included it as part of the
education of his children and, as his father's heir, Legolas would
have learned of it too. It is impossible to know whether Legolas
would have ever met Elrohir and Elladan or indeed if he had ever
traveled to Rivendell before the Council of Elrond.
This is just speculation, but my guess is that Legolas had never
visited Rivendell before his father dispatched him as a messenger.
They may have traded with men and dwarves, but Thrainduil and his
people were almost as insular as their kin in Lorien. If Unfinished
Tales has any merit, Thrainduil and his ancestors had moved three
times to avoid daily contact with the remnants of the Noldor so it
seems unlikely that he would have encouraged any unnecessary contact
between Mirkwood and Rivendell. Elladan and Elrohir also seem to have
spent nearly all of their time in Eriador (either in the field with
the Rangers or at Rivendell) apart from the occasional journey to
Lorien.
It was also my the impression that Legolas never really suffered
from wanderlust before he encountered the Sea. My guess is that he
was content to spend nearly all of his life in his father's small
realm. So, if I had to wager, I would bet that Legolas and the sons
of Elrond were never friends (or at least not until after the War of
the Ring.)
Morgoth's Curse