How do you kill a Balrog... and other fell creatures?
Salamangkero
get to parts where battles between elves and men on one side and
balrogs, dragons, and trolls on the other- that warfare on middle earth
must have looked extremely different to the warfare we know.
What chance, exactly, would elves and men have against a balrog? I
doubt bows and arrows would have harmed it much. Probably not at all.
What about against dragons? Glaurung was tough enough, and then later
dragons suddenly sprout wings! If it had not been for the occasional
intervention of the eagles, there would have been no contest. (Okay,
Smaug was killed somewhat easily, but that would be an exception.)
So how exactly could these battles have been won? What kind of weapons
did the elves carry? I note lances, swords, arrows are mentioned here
and there, but that just wouldn't be enough against an enemy that can
kill you from afar with its longer reach be it thru dragon breath or
flaming whip. What seems to be missing is any mention of artillery!
Did JRRT mention artillery anywhere? Maybe I just missed it?
frisbie...@yahoo.com
Sapphire bullets of pure love?
Magic arrows are traditional.
Artillery? Such vulgarity!
William Cloud Hicklin
The key to killing a Balrog lies in choosing the tactical ground. Select
a spot from which it can *plummet*- which appears to be the principal
cause of death among the flightless Balrogs.
--
" I would even contend that a reaction against Tolkien's non-Modernist
prose style is just as influential in the rejection of Tolkien by
traditional literary scholars as is Modernist antipathy to the themes of
his work"
JJ
Salamangkero wrote:
There are plenty of dragon-slayings in (real? non-Tolkien?) mythology,
done by sword and arrows, with in one case, the assistance of a dog.
Salamangkero
JJ wrote:
>
> There are plenty of dragon-slayings in (real? non-Tolkien?) mythology,
> done by sword and arrows, with in one case, the assistance of a dog.
True, but don't you find them difficult to believe? Don't you think
that all a dragon had to do was just step on the person with a sword?
Would be interesting to read Children of Hurin, which I assume will
tell the story of how Turin killed Glaurung with more detail.
Salamangkero
William Cloud Hicklin wrote:
>
> The key to killing a Balrog lies in choosing the tactical ground. Select
> a spot from which it can *plummet*- which appears to be the principal
> cause of death among the flightless Balrogs.
>
ha ha! Well it helps being a maiar yourself. I doubt frodo could have
beaten a balrog that way. Unless perhaps with a very big sling? :-)
William Cloud Hicklin
Note that two of the three recorded cases of Balrog fatalities were caused
by Noldorin Elves.
Jens Kilian
> True, but don't you find them difficult to believe? Don't you think
> that all a dragon had to do was just step on the person with a sword?
Well, a magic sword helps. ObTolkien: _Farmer Giles_
--
mailto:j...@acm.org As the air to a bird, or the sea to a fish,
http://www.bawue.de/~jjk/ so is contempt to the contemptible. [Blake]
http://del.icio.us/jjk
Paul S. Person
<rais...@edsamail.com.ph> wrote:
The deaths of three Balrogs are clearly documented. In all three cases
the technique was:
a) grab the Balrog;
b) fall into something;
c) die
The "something" could be a large pool of water or a really impressive
cliff or a really deep chasm.
If you are thinking that Gandalf is an exception to c), that is not
strictly true: Gandalf was /sent back/ into the world, which, of
course, could not happen had he not left it first.
No special weapons were needed to kill a Balrog!
--
"I find that a great many things which have been conclusively
demonstrated by the Ancients are unintelligible to the
bulk of the Moderns owing to their ignorance"
Christopher Kreuzer
<snip>
> The key to killing a Balrog lies in choosing the tactical ground. Select a
> spot from which it can *plummet*- which appears to be the
> principal cause of death among the flightless Balrogs.
But don't forget to tie yourself on to something, or you'll end up going
down with them. Better still, invest in a parachute!
Christopher
Glenn Holliday
> (Okay,
> Smaug was killed somewhat easily, but that would be an exception.)
I don't agree with "easily." The killing of Smaug required several
traditional heroic themes to come together:
1. a hero, with
2. a special weapon,
3. aided by a talking animal ally,
4. after a long, dangerous adventure to discover crucial information
(Bilbo's two journeys into the mountain),
5. after a long, dangerous journey to arrive at the scene of the action.
Splitting the hard work among more than one hero is an interesting
literary contribution by Tolkien, but I don't think that made the
task less easy.
The killings of Balrogs also all involved heroes.
--
Glenn Holliday holl...@acm.org
Count Menelvagor
Paul S. Person wrote:
> The deaths of three Balrogs are clearly documented. In all three cases
> the technique was:
>
> a) grab the Balrog;
> b) fall into something;
> c) die
>
> The "something" could be a large pool of water or a really impressive
> cliff or a really deep chasm.
>
> If you are thinking that Gandalf is an exception to c), that is not
> strictly true: Gandalf was /sent back/ into the world, which, of
> course, could not happen had he not left it first.
>
> No special weapons were needed to kill a Balrog!
you could just live and let live, you know.
balrogs are a highly sophisticated, peace-loving people, whose greatest
pleasure is a quiet little soiree with lots of human-kebob. why all
this blood-lust?
Christopher Kreuzer
<snip>
> Would be interesting to read Children of Hurin, which I assume will
> tell the story of how Turin killed Glaurung with more detail.
Probably won't contain any more detail. Anyway, /The Silmarillion/ already
has quite a detailed account of how Turin killed Glaurung.
Christopher
Dave Stallard
> Salamangkero wrote:
>> (Okay,
>> Smaug was killed somewhat easily, but that would be an exception.)
>
> I don't agree with "easily." The killing of Smaug required several
> traditional heroic themes to come together:
> 1. a hero, with
> 2. a special weapon,
> 3. aided by a talking animal ally,
> 4. after a long, dangerous adventure to discover crucial information
> (Bilbo's two journeys into the mountain),
> 5. after a long, dangerous journey to arrive at the scene of the action.
Well, that may have been his lucky arrow, but it wasn't made in Gondolin
or anything. Nor was it armor-piercing. It hit an exposed patch of
skin and went in all the way. End of dragon.
Dave
JJ
Salamangkero wrote:
> JJ wrote:
> >
> > There are plenty of dragon-slayings in (real? non-Tolkien?) mythology,
> > done by sword and arrows, with in one case, the assistance of a dog.
>
> True, but don't you find them difficult to believe? Don't you think
> that all a dragon had to do was just step on the person with a sword?
If you can believe in dragons, why not dragon-slayings? ;o)
>
> Would be interesting to read Children of Hurin, which I assume will
> tell the story of how Turin killed Glaurung with more detail.
It's quite clear - stuck a sword in his guts.
William Cloud Hicklin
<rais...@edsamail.com.ph> wrote:
> Would be interesting to read Children of Hurin, which I assume will
> tell the story of how Turin killed Glaurung with more detail.
Very unlikely. The one part of the "Narn" which Tolkien really finished
was the last part, from Turin's arrival in Brethil. Therefore I expect
that this part of CoH will just be a reprint of what we already have in UT.
Simon J. Rowe
Glenn Holliday
I think the ritual address to the black arrow marks it as a special
weapon, which is an important theme in heroic stories. Everything
you say about it is also true.
--
Glenn Holliday holl...@acm.org
Christopher Kreuzer
> Dave Stallard wrote:
[The Black Arrow]
>> Well, that may have been his lucky arrow, but it wasn't made in
>> Gondolin or anything. Nor was it armor-piercing. It hit an exposed
>> patch of skin and went in all the way. End of dragon.
>
> I think the ritual address to the black arrow marks it as a special
> weapon, which is an important theme in heroic stories. Everything
> you say about it is also true.
I just had to dig out the quote:
"Arrow! [said the bowman] Black arrow! I have saved you to the last. You
have never failed me and always I have recovered you. I had you from my
father and he from of old. If ever you came from the forges of the true king
under the Mountain, go now and speed well!" (Fire and Water, The Hobbit)
I remember the stirring effect this had on me when I first read it.
Especially the "from of old" bit - a wonderful piece of archaism. And while
the arrow wasn't made in Gondolin, it seems like it was from "the forges of
the true king under the Mountain", so there is something special about it.
Can anyone think of other scenes from mythology (or indeed Tolkien's other
stories) where we see such an address? Features such as:
(a) Addressing a weapon
(b) A weapon with a noble lineage
(c) An heirloom handed down the generations
(d) A weapon made in some special place
(e) A never-failing weapon
(f) Going out with a bang
Just looking at Tolkien's other works for the moment, I think the obvious
ones are Sting and Anduril (which fulfil some of the conditions above), as
well as Narsil and Aiglos (which both go out with a bang - but we don't hear
the last words said to them by Elendil and Gil-galad). But the best example
I found was the sword Anglachel, reforged as Gurthang for the Mormegil
(Turin), which goes one better than all the other weapons and actually
talks!
Any examples from legend and mythology of talking weapons?
Christopher
Dave Stallard
> I just had to dig out the quote:
>
> "Arrow! [said the bowman] Black arrow! I have saved you to the last. You
> have never failed me and always I have recovered you. I had you from my
> father and he from of old. If ever you came from the forges of the true king
> under the Mountain, go now and speed well!" (Fire and Water, The Hobbit)
But does he get it back after killing the dragon? ;) Probably not ;)
>
> I remember the stirring effect this had on me when I first read it.
> Especially the "from of old" bit - a wonderful piece of archaism. And while
> the arrow wasn't made in Gondolin, it seems like it was from "the forges of
> the true king under the Mountain", so there is something special about it.
>
> Can anyone think of other scenes from mythology (or indeed Tolkien's other
> stories) where we see such an address? Features such as:
>
> (a) Addressing a weapon
Turin asks his sword if it will kill him, and it answers yes ("Yea, I
will slay thee swiftly").
Dave
Steve Morrison
> Can anyone think of other scenes from mythology (or indeed Tolkien's other
> stories) where we see such an address? Features such as:
>
> (a) Addressing a weapon
> (b) A weapon with a noble lineage
> (c) An heirloom handed down the generations
> (d) A weapon made in some special place
> (e) A never-failing weapon
> (f) Going out with a bang
>
> Just looking at Tolkien's other works for the moment, I think the obvious
> ones are Sting and Anduril (which fulfil some of the conditions above), as
> well as Narsil and Aiglos (which both go out with a bang - but we don't hear
> the last words said to them by Elendil and Gil-galad). But the best example
> I found was the sword Anglachel, reforged as Gurthang for the Mormegil
> (Turin), which goes one better than all the other weapons and actually
> talks!
>
> Any examples from legend and mythology of talking weapons?
>
> Christopher
Túrin's conversation with his sword was lifted pretty directly from
the /Kalevala/ (Finnish national epic):
Kullerwoinen, wicked wizard,
Grasps the handle of his broadsword,
Asks the blade this simple question:
"Tell me, O my blade of honor,
Dost thou wish to drink my life-blood,
Drink the blood of Kullerwoinen?"
Thus his trusty sword makes answer,
Well divining his intentions:
Why should I not drink thy life-blood,
Blood of guilty Kullerwoinen,
Since I feast upon the worthy,
Drink the life-blood of the righteous?"
Thereupon the youth, Kullervo,
Wicked wizard of the Northland,
Lifts the mighty sword of Ukko,
Bids adieu to earth and heaven;
Firmly thrusts the hilt in heather,
To his heart he points the weapon,
Throws his weight upon his broadsword,
Pouring out his wicked life-blood,
Ere be journeys to Manala.
Thus the wizard finds destruction,
This the end of Kullerwoinen,
Born in sin, and nursed in folly.
(from http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/kveng/kvrune36.htm)
Can you tell me one other instance of an inanimate object in
Middle-earth (not a weapon) which spoke?
mult...@yahoo.com
Why do some bigots always think dragons are fell/evil? Dragons are
just like humans, you get all kinds: some good and not so good.
Take for example the mighty dragon Smaug, as chronicalled in the famous
song "Smaug the Mighty Dragon" (White Book->Appendix B->Of Dragons).
Quote:
"...Together they would travel on a boat with billowed sail.
Grima kept a lookout perched on Smaug's gigantic tail.
Noble kings and princes would bow when 'ere they came.
Pirate ships would low'r their flag when SMAUG roared out his name."
Smaug became not so good after he startted smoking pipeweed.
Derek Broughton
> "...and other fell creatures? ... dragons"?
>
> Why do some bigots always think dragons are fell/evil? Dragons are
> just like humans, you get all kinds: some good and not so good.
>
> Take for example the mighty dragon Smaug, as chronicalled in the famous
> song "Smaug the Mighty Dragon" (White Book->Appendix B->Of Dragons).
> Quote:
>
> "...Together they would travel on a boat with billowed sail.
> Grima kept a lookout perched on Smaug's gigantic tail.
Oh, please. So here we see that Smaug hung out with pond scum.
> Noble kings and princes would bow when 'ere they came.
> Pirate ships would low'r their flag when SMAUG roared out his name."
And here we see that Pirates offered him respect!
>
> Smaug became not so good after he startted smoking pipeweed.
It looks like he was rotten already...
--
derek
Troels Forchhammer
Steve Morrison <rim...@toast.net> spoke these staves:
>
<snip>
> Túrin's conversation with his sword was lifted pretty directly
> from the /Kalevala/ (Finnish national epic):
<snip quotation>
Thanks.
For some reason I've never actually got myself pulled together to sit
down and read the Kalevala -- I've downloaded it (from Project
Gutenberg), but that's how far I got.
> Can you tell me one other instance of an inanimate object in
> Middle-earth (not a weapon) which spoke?
Some would of course cite the situation at the slopes of Mount Doom
where a voice seemed to Sam to come from a wheel of fire, but in that
question I'm convinced it was Frodo speaking.
But I think there is another example -- it has been discussed
previously, but I can't recall what the other example would be.
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put '[AFT]', '[RABT]' or 'Tolkien' in subject.
Behold! we are not bound for ever to the circles of the
world, and beyond them is more than memory, Farewell!
- Aragorn, /The Lord of the Rings/ (J.R.R. Tolkien)
Christopher Kreuzer
> In message <news:12maa60...@corp.supernews.com>
> Steve Morrison <rim...@toast.net> spoke these staves:
<snip>
>> Can you tell me one other instance of an inanimate object in
>> Middle-earth (not a weapon) which spoke?
>
> Some would of course cite the situation at the slopes of Mount Doom
> where a voice seemed to Sam to come from a wheel of fire, but in that
> question I'm convinced it was Frodo speaking.
>
> But I think there is another example -- it has been discussed
> previously, but I can't recall what the other example would be.
Would it be the stones that Legolas hears in Hollin? I'm also trying to
remember if Galadriel's Mirror or the palantirs had any associated voice
effects, and whether Caradhras had "a voice". Were there voices from the
Dead Marshes as well? Maybe some of the Druedain magical stuff in Unfinished
Tales had inanimate things speaking? Talking doors are also quite common in
other stories, but I can't remember any in Tolkien's stories.
Christopher
Steve Morrison
The object I had in mind was portable, and it was not in LotR, but
another book. (BTW this is not an original riddle; I encountered it
some time around 1980 in a small volume called /The Tolkien Quiz
Book/, in the form "Name two inanimate objects in Middle-earth that
actually spoke". I immediately realized that one was Túrin's sword,
but was completely stumped when it came to the second until I read
the answer section.)
Troels Forchhammer
>
<snip>
> The object I had in mind was portable, and it was not in LotR,
The Troll purse in /The Hobbit/!
It suddenly dawned upon me ;-)
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put '[AFT]', '[RABT]' or 'Tolkien' in subject.
"What're quantum mechanics?"
"I don't know. People who repair quantums, I suppose."
- /Eric/ (Terry Pratchett)
Christopher Kreuzer
<snip>
> The Troll purse in /The Hobbit/!
>
> It suddenly dawned upon me ;-)
<groan> :-)
Steve Morrison
Now you know how I felt, when I turned to the answer section those
many years ago...
But as for the /Kalevala/, I admit I haven't really read all of it
either. I have read the first rune, as well as the runes dealing
with Kullervo, but that's it -- sooner or later I've gotta find time
to finish the copy _I_ downloaded from Project Gutenberg!
Troels Forchhammer
"Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> spoke these staves:
>
> Troels Forchhammer wrote:
>>
>> The Troll purse in /The Hobbit/!
>>
>> It suddenly dawned upon me ;-)
>
> <groan> :-)
Was that from the head-slapping of realization (I caught myself from
doing that -- I thought it would have looked odd to my colleagues as
the realization came to me while at work <GG>), or was it at the pun
(which was actually unintentional, believe it or not).
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put '[AFT]', '[RABT]' or 'Tolkien' in subject.
The truth may be out there, but lies are inside your head.
- /Hogfather/ (Terry Pratchett)
Christopher Kreuzer
> In message <news:VBL9h.6394$k74....@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>
> "Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> spoke these staves:
>>
>> Troels Forchhammer wrote:
>>>
>>> The Troll purse in /The Hobbit/!
>>>
>>> It suddenly dawned upon me ;-)
>>
>> <groan> :-)
>
> Was that from the head-slapping of realization (I caught myself from
> doing that -- I thought it would have looked odd to my colleagues as
> the realization came to me while at work <GG>), or was it at the pun
> (which was actually unintentional, believe it or not).
The "dawn take you and be stone" pun.
I refuse to believe the pun was unintentional! :-)
Dirk Thierbach
> Any examples from legend and mythology of talking weapons?
My feeling was that, considering that animate weapons are a staple of
Fantasy novels, there should be plenty of other original examples
besides those mentioned already. But I just cannot think of any, and
while googling for "talking swords" or related keywords does get lots
of hits, but most seem to be RPG or Fantasy related. There's also
plenty of mythical or legendary swords with special abilities (one
list is for example at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_sword),
but none of them is mentioned as "able to talk".
So are there other examples? Anyone?
- Dirk
Christopher Kreuzer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kullervo#Parallels_in_Popular_Culture
"Poul Anderson wrote a novel The Broken Sword, whose owner converses with a
talking sword before committing suicide.
Michael Moorcock's tragic hero Elric of Melniboné likewise contains many
elements that may possibly be inspired by Kullervo (perhaps indirectly
through The Broken Sword); a notable similarity between the two is the
near-identical reply of each protagonist's weapon to its master before his
suicide."
But these are both post-Tolkien. I'm sure there are pre-Tolkien examples. A
search for "talking objects mythology" might help, but I haven't been able
to find anything.
I did find a fascinating essay here:
http://www.physics.ccsu.edu/larsen/meteorites.html
Christopher
Salamangkero
You're right I guess. But all in all reading the details in the
Silmarillion is more like reading a history book than a more common
novel. I was hoping to read more of the thought processes that Turin
may have been going through.
I guess the same way can be noticed when the Silmarillion describes
Frodo tossing in the ring into Mt. Doom compared to how the LOTR book
described it.
William Cloud Hicklin
Well then I expect C of H will disappoint you. While it tends in a more
novelistic direction than most of Tolkien's First Age writing, the Narn is
still very much in a "legendary" mode. Anyway, you can read the
Glaurung-gutting in Unfinished Tales, in which unless I'm very much
misinformed the Worm-whacking will be repeated verbatim in C of H.
Dirk Thierbach
> Dirk Thierbach wrote:
>> My feeling was that, considering that animate weapons are a staple of
>> Fantasy novels, there should be plenty of other original examples
>> besides those mentioned already.
A bit more googling finds the speaking sword of King Tethra, which is
either forged or stolen (depending on which web-site you look) by
Oghma (who invented the Ogham runes).
Any others?
- Dirk
William Cloud Hicklin
Well, there's Snow White's stepmother's Talking Mirror <ducks.......>
Jordan
frisbie...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Salamangkero wrote:
>
> > So how exactly could these battles have been won? What kind of weapons
> > did the elves carry? I note lances, swords, arrows are mentioned here
> > and there, but that just wouldn't be enough against an enemy that can
> > kill you from afar with its longer reach be it thru dragon breath or
> > flaming whip. What seems to be missing is any mention of artillery!
> > Did JRRT mention artillery anywhere? Maybe I just missed it?
>
> Sapphire bullets of pure love?
>
> Magic arrows are traditional.
>
> Artillery? Such vulgarity!
I have this weird image now of the Sailor Scouts vs. Morgoth.
- Jordan
Salamangkero
William Cloud Hicklin wrote:
> >
> Well then I expect C of H will disappoint you. While it tends in a more
> novelistic direction than most of Tolkien's First Age writing, the Narn is
> still very much in a "legendary" mode. Anyway, you can read the
> Glaurung-gutting in Unfinished Tales, in which unless I'm very much
> misinformed the Worm-whacking will be repeated verbatim in C of H.
>
>
> --
> " I would even contend that a reaction against Tolkien's non-Modernist
> prose style is just as influential in the rejection of Tolkien by
> traditional literary scholars as is Modernist antipathy to the themes of
> his work"
I doubt that it would 'disappoint' me. :-) From what I read so far in
the Silmarillion about their story I'm already hooked. Can't wait for
the book to reach the shelves here in the Philippines.