COTW: Index I. Songs and Verses

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Belba Grubb From Stock

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Sep 12, 2005, 7:09:16 PM9/12/05
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We have finished /The Lord of the Rings/ and the appendices, but JRRT
didn't leave it at that. Instead of the usual simple alphabetical index
that one might expect, he provided us with one categorized into "I.
Songs and Verses" (with subsections for titles and first lines), "II.
Persons, Beasts and Monsters, "III. Places" and "IV. Things."

Isn't that grand!

Suppose you had never heard of this work or its author, and someone told
you there was a tale out there that had this index. One look at the
category names would be enough to make you rush out and buy the books to
see what it was all about.

Instead, if my experience is typical, we have finished the story; sighed
and wiped away the tears and basked in the warm glow of that home fire
at Bag End; and perhaps after a while read the appendices and pondered
them to a greater or less degree; and then we have closed the last book
once more and put it back on the shelf beside its fellows, never looking
at the index because we already know about all that.

Of course, my experience may not be typical at all and there are people
just waiting for a chance to dive in and discuss the songs and verses
JRRT included in this work. Go to it!

Some of the verses here have already worked their way into our threads:
"Earendil was a mariner..." and the Anglo-Saxon poem of Earendel, as
well as the connection with an extra-LOTR work of Tolkien's, "Errantry";
the works of Donald Swann and others who have set these words to music;
"Malbeth the Seer's Words"; "Galadriel's Song of Eldamar" (as it's
called in the Index, though I always think of it as "Namarie") and the
window it opens onto Quenya; and so forth.

There are many other verses and songs still to be explored, though. To
start it off,

--I think it was mentioned in the biography that Frodo's song at the
Prancing Pony was written many years before JRRT started to work on /The
Lord of the Rings/. Is that right?

--What is the difference between versions I and II of "Out of doubt, out
of dark, to the day's rising..."?

--Have you put any of these verses and/or those of /The Hobbit/ to
music? If so, can you share it with us?

--"Songs and Verses trivia": See (without looking it up) if you can
place the speaker, chanter or singer (as the case may be) and setting
for some of these first lines:

"All that is gold does not glitter..." ("Easy!" said Bilbo.)

"Sing hey! for the bath at close of the day..." (Chestnuts,
chestnuts," he hissed.)

Right. Something a little tougher:

"An Elven-maid there was of old..."

"Ere iron was found or tree was hewn..."

"When spring unfolds the beechen leaf, and sap is in the bough...."

And this absolutely stumps me:

"Silver flow the streams for Celos to Erui..."

--The songs and verses of /The Hobbit/. It really needs a similar
index. Does anyone have a list of these? Whatever else one might say
about the Rankin-Bass animation, they did a decent job with their
versions of "Chip the glasses and crack the plates!.." and "Far over the
misty mountains cold..." and with the Goblin's Song, too. Wish they'd
traded in Glenn Yarborough for Donald Swann, though. And the riddles!
Allen & Unwin apparently told Tolkien that they thought "the riddles
were taken from common folk lore and were not invented by you." He
replied that with the exception of "Thirty White Horses" and "No-legs"
they were "all my own work" and went on to point out that "'Sun on the
Daisies' is not in verse...being but the etymology of the word 'daisy',
expressed in riddle-form." (Letter 110) One wonders what songs and
verses in /The Lord of the Rings/ might have linguistics and etymology
as its basis.

--Your favorite or most hated verses, thoughts on these songs and
verses, how they work with or detract from the story, and other thoughts
and comments. (I've really gone on quite a bit here, probably too much,
but that's just to get it started; the next categories will have a much
more brief introduction.)

R Crouse

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Sep 13, 2005, 1:01:12 AM9/13/05
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"Belba Grubb From Stock" <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote in message
news:11ic2l7...@corp.supernews.com...

> We have finished /The Lord of the Rings/ and the appendices, but JRRT
> didn't leave it at that. Instead of the usual simple alphabetical index
> that one might expect, he provided us with one categorized into "I. Songs
> and Verses" (with subsections for titles and first lines), "II. Persons,
> Beasts and Monsters, "III. Places" and "IV. Things."
>

-- Please excuse my ignorance. What does "COTW" stand for? I am a Tolkien
reader but can't place it.

Thanks,
-Robert.


Dan Leach

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Sep 13, 2005, 6:49:49 AM9/13/05
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>>
>
> -- Please excuse my ignorance. What does "COTW" stand for? I am a
> Tolkien reader but can't place it.
>
> Thanks,
> -Robert.

This newsgroup has a 'chapter of the week'. It has done the hobbit and is
now nearing the end of lord of the rings. I think they are going to do the
silm next :)


Christopher Kreuzer

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Sep 13, 2005, 9:17:15 PM9/13/05
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Belba Grubb From Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:

<snip>

Nice introduction Belba, thanks!

> Of course, my experience may not be typical at all and there are
> people just waiting for a chance to dive in and discuss the songs and
> verses JRRT included in this work. Go to it!

No time tonight, but I do have quite a bit I want to say.

One thing I would like to ask now, as Belba did at the end of her
introduction, - which songs or verses do people like best? You can only
pick three, but you need to specify the order.

Mine are:

1) "Earendil was a mariner..."
2) "From dark Dunharrow in the dim morning..."
3) "Still round the corner there may wait..." (both versions)

[scans rest of post - ooh! look, a quiz!!]

<snip>

> --What is the difference between versions I and II of "Out of doubt,
> out of dark, to the day's rising..."?

Literally or figuratively? Literally the first version is at the Battle
of the Pelennor Fields, spoken by Eoomer. The second version is at
Theoden's funeral. But I guess you knew that. Figuratively the first is
Eomer responding to what has just happened. The second is an epitaph for
Theoden, describing how he brought hope to his people and gained great
glory.

<snip>

> --"Songs and Verses trivia": See (without looking it up) if you can
> place the speaker, chanter or singer (as the case may be) and setting
> for some of these first lines:
>
> "All that is gold does not glitter..." ("Easy!" said Bilbo.)

Is this a trick question? You say Bilbo said it was easy, so it can't be
Bilbo. Or is this a double bluff? Hmm.

Bilbo, at 'The Council of Elrond' to Boromir, defending Aragorn.

I don't think Bilbo ever said "Easy!" :-)

> "Sing hey! for the bath at close of the day..." (Chestnuts,
> chestnuts," he hissed.)

Either Merry or Pippin, or maybe Frodo. This is definitely when they are
approaching Crickhollow, though I can't remember if they have already
met up with Merry (who went ahead to prepare things at Crickhollow) or
not. Oh, maybe this is the actual bath song, in which case it is at
Crickhollow, and it is Frodo, possibly accompanied by the other hobbits
as well.

Oh, and Gollum said "chestnuts, chestnuts" but I can't remember where.
Maybe in Ithilien to Sam when he was cooking over the fire? Or was it to
Bilbo in /The Hobbit/ during the Riddle Game?

> Right. Something a little tougher:
>
> "An Elven-maid there was of old..."

Legolas by the stream of Nimrodel.
Singing to the rest of the Fellowship.

> "Ere iron was found or tree was hewn..."

"..it walked the forests long ago".

This is about the Ents. Sounds like Gandalf, probably to Legolas and/or
Theoden as he explains to Theoden what Ents are, and why Legolas
shouldn't go after the eyes in the Huorn forest. Since he's already said
something about Ents to Legolas, I'll say Gandalf said this to Theoden,
but it doesn't sound quite right. In fact, I'm going to say Gandalf said
it to Gimli when they meet in Fangorn.

And if it is from Gimli's song of Durin (sung in Moria), then I shall be
really annoyed, as I thought I knew that one... Annoyingly, I can't
remember the first line of that song:

Ere iron was found or tree was hewn,
No stain yet on the Moon was seen,
No words were laid on stream or stone
When Durin woke and walked alone.
He named the nameless hills and dells,
He drank from yet untasted wells
He stooped and looked in Mirrormere
And saw a crown of stars appear
As gems upon a silver thread
Above the shadow of his head

etc.

The half-lines scan.
But the rhyme is dodgy - hewn and seen??
And the tense is wrong - ere sounds wrong for the tone of the poem.
Could it really be Gimli's song of Durin?
Why can't I remember that first line!

Oh, I give up.
"String or nothing!"

No. Must give an answer!

I am convinced I would remember if it was Durin's Song. The lines scan
in both answers, so I am going to bite the bullet and go with my first
answer. Gandalf to Theoden somewhere on the Road to Isengard.

[Hmm? What was that? The programme ended half an hour ago? What do you
mean: "I've run out of time"??]

> "When spring unfolds the beechen leaf, and sap is in the
> bough...."

Treebeard's song of the Ent and the Entwife, sung to Merry and Pippin in
Fangorn. Probably at Wellinghall, though I'm not sure. And I think the
Ent voice starts off the song.

> And this absolutely stumps me:
>
> "Silver flow the streams for Celos to Erui..."

"..from Celos to Erui..." surely.

And that would be Legolas singing about the beauty of the lands he has
seen with Gimli. In the chapter 'The Last Debate' somewhere in or around
Minas Tirith as he and Gimli tell of what happened to them.

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard

Christopher Kreuzer

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Sep 13, 2005, 9:38:26 PM9/13/05
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Christopher Kreuzer <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> Belba Grubb From Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:

<snip>

> [scans rest of post - ooh! look, a quiz!!]

<snip>

>> --"Songs and Verses trivia": See (without looking it up) if you can


>> place the speaker, chanter or singer (as the case may be) and setting
>> for some of these first lines:

<snip>

> I don't think Bilbo ever said "Easy!" :-)

Oops! I should have known better... :-)
Lucky it wasn't part of the question!

>> "Sing hey! for the bath at close of the day..."

Hmm. Right location. Wrong person.

>> "Ere iron was found or tree was hewn..."

Lesson learnt: go with the first guess!
And don't miss out lines of the verse!

And it is a very nice verse as well. It is interesting that it scans the
same way as Gimli's song of Durin (the lines in each verse/song have the
same number of syllables - eight), and some of the content is very
similar.

First Gandalf's introduction to the song: "a power that walked the
earth, ere elf sang or hammer rang" (The Road to Isengard)

cf. "There hammer on the anvil smote [...]
And at the gates the trumpets rang." (Song of Durin)

And then this line from Gandalf's verse about the Ents: "When young was
mountain under moon" (The Road to Isengard)

cf. "The world was young, the mountains green,
No stain yet on the Moon was seen" (Song of Durin)

So that was (obviously!) why I was confusing them... :-)

Belba Grubb From Stock

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Sep 13, 2005, 10:10:56 PM9/13/05
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Christopher Kreuzer wrote:

<snip>

>>--"Songs and Verses trivia": See (without looking it up) if you can
>>place the speaker, chanter or singer (as the case may be) and setting
>>for some of these first lines:
>>
>> "All that is gold does not glitter..." ("Easy!" said Bilbo.)
>
>
> Is this a trick question? You say Bilbo said it was easy, so it can't be
> Bilbo. Or is this a double bluff? Hmm.
>
> Bilbo, at 'The Council of Elrond' to Boromir, defending Aragorn.
>
> I don't think Bilbo ever said "Easy!" :-)

He did, indeed -- in /The Hobbit/ just before Gollum mentioned
chestnuts. True, he hadn't written The Riddle of Strider yet (the lad
back in Rivendell was only ten years old then, I think).

No tricks -- that's us saying "Easy," and "Chestnuts" to the other one.
Everybody should get those two, and probably did. :-)

>
>
>> "Sing hey! for the bath at close of the day..." (Chestnuts,
>> chestnuts," he hissed.)
>
>
> Either Merry or Pippin, or maybe Frodo. This is definitely when they are
> approaching Crickhollow, though I can't remember if they have already
> met up with Merry (who went ahead to prepare things at Crickhollow) or
> not. Oh, maybe this is the actual bath song, in which case it is at
> Crickhollow, and it is Frodo, possibly accompanied by the other hobbits
> as well.

Pippin, I think it was, and at the end his bath water splashed on high.

>
> Oh, and Gollum said "chestnuts, chestnuts" but I can't remember where.
> Maybe in Ithilien to Sam when he was cooking over the fire? Or was it to
> Bilbo in /The Hobbit/ during the Riddle Game?

Right in the latter instance, as above.

Since we've done /The Hobbit/ too, figured it would be reasonable to
bring the riddles and other songs and verses from that work into it here.

>
>
>>Right. Something a little tougher:
>>
>> "An Elven-maid there was of old..."
>
>
> Legolas by the stream of Nimrodel.
> Singing to the rest of the Fellowship.

Yep.

>
>> "When spring unfolds the beechen leaf, and sap is in the
>>bough...."
>
>
> Treebeard's song of the Ent and the Entwife, sung to Merry and Pippin in
> Fangorn. Probably at Wellinghall, though I'm not sure. And I think the
> Ent voice starts off the song.

That I don't remember, although I once set this song to music (a round,
though that's not really suitable to the topic, unless you want the Ent
and the Entwife nattering on at each other, neither hearing what the
other is singing; not quite what JRRT had in mind -- the both can hear
each other, but they each have their own will in the matter, which puts
them at odds). Treebeard was rather proudly singing a song the Elves
had made about the Ents; it had once been sung throughout the land.

>
>
>>And this absolutely stumps me:
>>
>> "Silver flow the streams for Celos to Erui..."
>
>
> "..from Celos to Erui..." surely.
>
> And that would be Legolas singing about the beauty of the lands he has
> seen with Gimli. In the chapter 'The Last Debate' somewhere in or around
> Minas Tirith as he and Gimli tell of what happened to them.

Ding! Bell rings -- yes, and then he said that is how the lands are
described in song but he couldn't say, even though he had crossed them,
because it was dark.

Barb

Belba Grubb From Stock

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Sep 13, 2005, 10:12:23 PM9/13/05
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Aw, you looked. But that's okay -- I hadn't noticed the similarity in
scanning.

Barb

Dirk Thierbach

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Sep 14, 2005, 3:09:18 AM9/14/05
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Belba Grubb From Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:
> Some of the verses here have already worked their way into our threads:
> "Earendil was a mariner..."

Christopher (and you at the end) asked about favorites, and this is
definitely mine. Completely blew me away when I first read it in the
original version. And it's impossible to translate all the rhymes; the
German version doesn't come even close.

> --I think it was mentioned in the biography that Frodo's song at the
> Prancing Pony was written many years before JRRT started to work on /The
> Lord of the Rings/. Is that right?

I think I remember that, too. And many of the verses seem to have been
written independently of LotR first. Another example is Earendil.

> --Have you put any of these verses and/or those of /The Hobbit/ to
> music? If so, can you share it with us?

When I was a child, I actually invented simple melodies for the "Far
over the misty mountains" verse of the Hobbit, and for the German
translation of song about Beren and Luthien (I didn't have the
original version of the LotR at that time).

If you insist, I can try to remember them and write them down :-)

I also like some of the songs collected by Lindatirion,
http://poetspol.web4u.cz/down.htm. They were probably created in a
similar way, but do have guitar accompaniment, and in some
cases a second voice. So vastly more sophisticated then mine :-)

Nice ones are, for example, Nimrodel, the Song of Galadriel,
and Galadriels Lament.

> --The songs and verses of /The Hobbit/. It really needs a similar
> index. Does anyone have a list of these? Whatever else one might say
> about the Rankin-Bass animation, they did a decent job with their
> versions of "Chip the glasses and crack the plates!.." and "Far over the
> misty mountains cold..." and with the Goblin's Song, too.

I didn't see the Rankin-Bass animation, but one thing I have overlooked
for a long time is that the Goblin's Song ("Clap! Snap!") actually
sounds very impressing when read aloud. The words are just right so
one can do interesting things with the voice.

> Wish they'd traded in Glenn Yarborough for Donald Swann, though.

I am afraid the music by Donald Swann is not really my style.

> One wonders what songs and verses in /The Lord of the Rings/ might
> have linguistics and etymology as its basis.

Or what other things have a philological base. There seem to be so
many of them. I guess it would be good to have an index for them, too :-)

- Dirk

Troels Forchhammer

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Sep 14, 2005, 9:35:14 AM9/14/05
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In message <news:vSKVe.108325$G8.8...@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>
"Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> enriched us with:

> Belba Grubb From Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> Nice introduction Belba, thanks!
>
>> Of course, my experience may not be typical at all and there are
>> people just waiting for a chance to dive in and discuss the songs
>> and verses JRRT included in this work. Go to it!
>
> No time tonight, but I do have quite a bit I want to say.
>
> One thing I would like to ask now, as Belba did at the end of her
> introduction, - which songs or verses do people like best? You can
> only pick three, but you need to specify the order.
>
> Mine are:
>
> 1) "Earendil was a mariner..."
> 2) "From dark Dunharrow in the dim morning..."
> 3) "Still round the corner there may wait..." (both versions)

I cannot with any honesty answer that question. My perception of the
songs and verses is strongly tied to the beautiful renditions made by
The Tolkien Ensemble[*], and as is the nature of music, my
preferences differ with differing moods. I think the ensemble, in
general, has hit the mood of the lyrics very well with their music.
So much so that my 14-years-old has the "Ho Tom Bombadil" on his
mobile phone ;-)

[*] <http://www.tolkiensociety.org/tstrading/sales_03.html#music>

<snip quiz>

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

Lo! we have gathered, and we have spent, and now the time
of payment draws near.
- Aragorn, /The Lord of the Rings/ (J.R.R. Tolkien)

Christopher Kreuzer

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Sep 14, 2005, 2:58:38 PM9/14/05
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Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:

<snip>

> So much so that my 14-years-old has the "Ho Tom Bombadil" on his
> mobile phone ;-)

LOL! As a ring-tone? Now that _would_ be annoying!!


JimboCat

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Sep 14, 2005, 4:23:25 PM9/14/05
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Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
[snippage]

> One thing I would like to ask now, as Belba did at the end of her
> introduction, - which songs or verses do people like best? You can only
> pick three, but you need to specify the order.
>
> Mine are:
>
> 1) "Earendil was a mariner..."
> 2) "From dark Dunharrow in the dim morning..."
> 3) "Still round the corner there may wait..." (both versions)

Mine are:

1) "Earendil was a mariner..."

2) That Elvish verse. You know. IDHTBIFOM but I think it was sung by
one of Gildor's party in the Shire before they invited the hobbits to
join them. I remember writing my essay for the English Regents exam (a
NY State exam for HS students) on this poem thirty years ago. I
couldn't remember all the elvish, so I made some of it up...
3) Bilbo's song that Frodo sang on the table in the Prancing Pony. "few
of the words are as a rule remembered..."
99999) Tom Bombadillo!

<snip>

>> --"Songs and Verses trivia": See (without looking it up) if you can
>> place the speaker, chanter or singer (as the case may be) and setting
>> for some of these first lines:
>>
>> "All that is gold does not glitter..." ("Easy!" said Bilbo.)
>
>Is this a trick question? You say Bilbo said it was easy, so it can't be
>Bilbo. Or is this a double bluff? Hmm.
>
>Bilbo, at 'The Council of Elrond' to Boromir, defending Aragorn.

That's the first time it's sung or chanted. But we've seen the first
couple lines of the verse before: it was in Gandalf's letter to Frodo
that didn't get delivered until the hobbits reached Bree.

Jim Deutch (JimboCat)
--
"The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed."
-- Louis Epstein
"Barad-dûr MUST rise again, at least as tall as
before...or Frodo has triumphed."
-- Flame of the West
"New Orleans MUST be flooded again, at least as deep
as before...or Katrina has triumphed."
-- JimboCat

Christopher Kreuzer

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Sep 14, 2005, 4:41:32 PM9/14/05
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JimboCat <10313...@compuserve.com> wrote:
> Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
> [snippage]
>> One thing I would like to ask now, as Belba did at the end of her
>> introduction, - which songs or verses do people like best? You can
>> only pick three, but you need to specify the order.
>>
>> Mine are:
>>
>> 1) "Earendil was a mariner..."
>> 2) "From dark Dunharrow in the dim morning..."
>> 3) "Still round the corner there may wait..." (both versions)
>
> Mine are:
>
> 1) "Earendil was a mariner..."

Looks like lots of people like this!

> 2) That Elvish verse. You know. IDHTBIFOM but I think it was sung by
> one of Gildor's party in the Shire before they invited the hobbits to
> join them.

A Elbereth Gilthoniel?

Actually, looked it up, and it starts:

"Snow-white! Snow-white! Oh Lady clear!"

And though sung in Elvish, the hobbits find that the "sound blending
with the melody seemed to shape itself in their thought into words..."

> I remember writing my essay for the English Regents exam (a
> NY State exam for HS students) on this poem thirty years ago. I
> couldn't remember all the elvish, so I made some of it up...

Sounds like an interesting exam!

In Elvish? That might be a later one:

"A Elbereth Gilthoniel,
silivren penna miriel...

They are all basically hymns to Elbereth. Various similar and, I think
slightly different, versions are sung by Gildor's company, and in the
Hall of Fire at Rivendell, and by the Elves going to the Grey Havens at
the end of the book. I'm not entirely sure what the exact differences
are, and that might be interesting if anyone knows.

> 3) Bilbo's song that Frodo sang on the table in the Prancing Pony.
> "few of the words are as a rule remembered..."

LOL! "There is an inn, a merry old inn..." was a linguistic joke, wasn't
it? I'm sure somebody mentioned it recently. It was Tolkien providing an
example of a song, from long ago, of which only a fragment remains today
in our lore: one of the last verses, about the cow jumping over the
moon, and the dog and the cutlery.

> 99999) Tom Bombadillo!

Does anyone like these? I don't particularly dislike them, but they do
seem to stir up people's ire!

>>> --"Songs and Verses trivia": See (without looking it up) if you can
>>> place the speaker, chanter or singer (as the case may be) and
>>> setting for some of these first lines:
>>>
>>> "All that is gold does not glitter..." ("Easy!" said Bilbo.)
>>
>> Is this a trick question? You say Bilbo said it was easy, so it
>> can't be Bilbo. Or is this a double bluff? Hmm.
>>
>> Bilbo, at 'The Council of Elrond' to Boromir, defending Aragorn.
>
> That's the first time it's sung or chanted. But we've seen the first
> couple lines of the verse before: it was in Gandalf's letter to Frodo
> that didn't get delivered until the hobbits reached Bree.

Yes. Maybe it _was_ a trick question!? :-)

Christopher Kreuzer

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Sep 14, 2005, 4:56:49 PM9/14/05
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Belba Grubb From Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:

<snip>

> --"Songs and Verses trivia": See (without looking it up) if you can


> place the speaker, chanter or singer (as the case may be) and setting
> for some of these first lines:

A few more... :-)

1) Cold be hand and heart and bone
2) Gondor! Gondor, between the Mountains and the Sea!
3) O slender as a willow wand! O clearer than clear waters!
4) Over the land there lies a long shadow
5) To the Sea, to the Sea! The white gulls are crying

Those were first lines. The next five are taken from anywhere in any of
the songs...

6) ...foam dyed with blood flamed at sunset...
7) ...his cloven shield, his broken sword, they to the water brought...
8) ...long was the way that fate them bore...
9) ...but on him mighty doom was laid...
10) ...through moor and waste we ride in haste...

Belba Grubb From Stock

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Sep 14, 2005, 5:51:44 PM9/14/05
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Dirk Thierbach wrote:
> Belba Grubb From Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:
>
>>Some of the verses here have already worked their way into our threads:
>>"Earendil was a mariner..."
>
>
> Christopher (and you at the end) asked about favorites, and this is
> definitely mine. Completely blew me away when I first read it in the
> original version. And it's impossible to translate all the rhymes; the
> German version doesn't come even close.

I have to admit skipping the poems the first few times through. This
was the first one I happened to read and had the same reaction -- it is
just so vivid and "tight" and at the end there "The Flammifer of
Westernesse." It's perfect. I read every single one of them after that
(and went back and read the ones that had come before that point in the
story).

To answer Christopher's question and select two other favorites...hmmm,
that's hard. I "heard" music for The Lament of the Rohirrim as well as
the Ent and the Ent-Wife; I will try to write them down, too (see
below). I think, though, my number one favorite in terms of impact as
well as enhancement of the text is the Song of the Mounds of Mundberg
that closes the chapter on the battle on the Pelennor. The choice of
words throughout, for example,

Grey now as tears, gleaming silver,
red then it rolled, roaring water

and the rhythm of it move me deeply.

Hmmm -- it would appear I have a bit of the Ent as well as the Rohirrim
in me. :-D

>>--Have you put any of these verses and/or those of /The Hobbit/ to
>>music? If so, can you share it with us?
>
>
> When I was a child, I actually invented simple melodies for the "Far
> over the misty mountains" verse of the Hobbit, and for the German
> translation of song about Beren and Luthien (I didn't have the
> original version of the LotR at that time).
>
> If you insist, I can try to remember them and write them down :-)

I insist! Please!

>
> I also like some of the songs collected by Lindatirion,
> http://poetspol.web4u.cz/down.htm. They were probably created in a
> similar way, but do have guitar accompaniment, and in some
> cases a second voice. So vastly more sophisticated then mine :-)
>
> Nice ones are, for example, Nimrodel, the Song of Galadriel,
> and Galadriels Lament.

Am now back to work so I will have to listen to them later, but thanks
for the link.

>
>
>>--The songs and verses of /The Hobbit/. It really needs a similar
>>index. Does anyone have a list of these? Whatever else one might say
>>about the Rankin-Bass animation, they did a decent job with their
>>versions of "Chip the glasses and crack the plates!.." and "Far over the
>>misty mountains cold..." and with the Goblin's Song, too.
>
>
> I didn't see the Rankin-Bass animation, but one thing I have overlooked
> for a long time is that the Goblin's Song ("Clap! Snap!") actually
> sounds very impressing when read aloud. The words are just right so
> one can do interesting things with the voice.

That's true. Very fun to read out loud.

>
>
>>Wish they'd traded in Glenn Yarborough for Donald Swann, though.
>
>
> I am afraid the music by Donald Swann is not really my style.

There are parts of it I can't warm up to, but I like the piano as
accompaniment and some of the lyrical music, notably "I Sit Beside The
Fire And Think." He "heard" some interesting music for Treebeard's
Song, but I can't imagine an Ent singing it -- too many high and low
notes mixed. I can "hear" something more sonorous and wave-like
swelling and then receding, though I can't actually put it to music.

I think Swann tackled "Errantry," too, didn't he? There was something
"buzzy" in the music book when I once looked through it and tried to
play the songs, but that one (it was at the end, I think) I never got
through.

>
>
>>One wonders what songs and verses in /The Lord of the Rings/ might
>>have linguistics and etymology as its basis.
>
>
> Or what other things have a philological base. There seem to be so
> many of them. I guess it would be good to have an index for them, too :-)

Well, one could say the whole book is that, of course. I hadn't
realized that about "Sun on Daisies" before, though.

Right -- who will do that index? ;-)

Barb

Troels Forchhammer

unread,
Sep 14, 2005, 6:31:25 PM9/14/05
to
In message <news:yp_Ve.108699$G8.3...@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>
"Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> enriched us with:
>
> Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> So much so that my 14-years-old has the "Ho Tom Bombadil" on his
>> mobile phone ;-)
>
> LOL! As a ring-tone? Now that _would_ be annoying!!

Hey, what a great idea! ;-)

Where I am working most people use rather personalized ring-tones, and
the guy who sits in front of me probably has the most irritating ring-
tone in the company (the Danish division, anyway), and I need some sort
of 'get even' mechanism ;-)

Or perhaps Gollum ... ('We only wish/to catch a fish,/so juicy-sweet!')

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

Taking fun
as simply fun
and earnestness
in earnest
shows how thouroughly
thou none
of the two
discernest.
- Piet Hein, /The Eternal Twins/

Message has been deleted

Dirk Thierbach

unread,
Sep 15, 2005, 3:24:03 AM9/15/05
to
Belba Grubb From Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:
> Dirk Thierbach wrote:

> I have to admit skipping the poems the first few times through.

The poems of the Hobbit are very badly translated, and as a child I
hated all of them :-) In the english original, I started to get
interested. The translation of the poems of LotR are pretty good,
but I think it took also some time until I was interested in them.

> This was the first one I happened to read and had the same reaction
> -- it is just so vivid and "tight" and at the end there "The
> Flammifer of Westernesse."

Yes, the "internal rhyme" (if this is the right expression) together with
the alliteration is just incredible. I especially like the part

[...] to Night of Naught,
and passed, and never sight he saw
of shining shore nor light he sought.

It's a bit like a "Schuettelreim" (shaken rhyme?), where you just switch
consonants or syllables between two words to make up the second line.
(Does that exists in English at all? I cannot remember having seen
any examples in English.)

>>>--Have you put any of these verses and/or those of /The Hobbit/ to
>>>music? If so, can you share it with us?

>> If you insist, I can try to remember them and write them down :-)

> I insist! Please!

If I have some time, I'll give it a try. Is lilypond format ok? It's
free, cross-platform, and the input file is plain text (so I can just
post it here) and readable by humans. Also, the postscript output
looks quite good. See http://www.lilypond.org/web/.

- Dirk

Dirk Thierbach

unread,
Sep 15, 2005, 3:29:15 AM9/15/05
to
Andrew F. Donnell <donn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I wonder if any of you folk have the "J.R.R. Tolkien Audio Collection?"

I don't, but from your description it looks like a nice Christmas
present.

> That's my two cents, I suppose...I don't know if this sort of thing has
> come up in prior COTW threads, since I haven't followed any of them

Not as far as I can remember.

> (who is this guy, eh?). Don't get me wrong, I think the whole Tolkien
> parashah thing is a wonderful idea, much better than all the bickering
> and name-calling at least.

A few entries in the killfile help with that; it's mostly always the same
people who do the name calling. And if other people wouldn't respond
to those people, then it would be even better :-)

As for bickering, you can have that in the CotW threads too, mostly
about some rather subtle details of some obscure aspect of Tolkiens
work :-) But at least that stays more polite, for most of the time.

- Dirk

Troels Forchhammer

unread,
Sep 15, 2005, 6:31:44 AM9/15/05
to
In message <news:l80We.108803$G8.3...@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>

"Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> enriched us with:
>
> A few more... :-)
>
> 1) Cold be hand and heart and bone

That's Gollum during the passage of the Marshes -- Baggins guessed it
long ago ;-)

> 2) Gondor! Gondor, between the Mountains and the Sea!

... West wind blew there, ... yes ;-)

But whom ... and when ... ?

Hmm ...

The problem is that it could be almost anybody -- Aragorn, Boromir,
Faramir, Gandalf (to name just he most likely), and for each of them
it could fit in several occasions.

Pass :-(

> 3) O slender as a willow wand! O clearer than clear waters!

The subject is, of course, the River-Woman's Daughter, which places
it squarely in the House of Tom Bombadil, but Frodo or Tom? I'm
inclined to suggest Frodo, 'now we know what the songs were about'
(paraphrasing).

> 4) Over the land there lies a long shadow

Original speaker, or this time around ;-)

Originally the Seer who was never known as Macbeth (Malbeth?),
despite the irritating habit of my memory ;-)

In the book his words are recited by Aragorn -- I think it was at
Helm's Deep, but it could be when the Rangers catch up with them or
when he speaks to Éowyn in Harrowdale.

> 5) To the Sea, to the Sea! The white gulls are crying

Legolas, Minas Tirith

> Those were first lines. The next five are taken from anywhere in
> any of the songs...
>
> 6) ...foam dyed with blood flamed at sunset...

The song of Nimrodel, IIRC (making it Legolas in Lothlórien)

> 7) ...his cloven shield, his broken sword, they to the water
> brought...

That has to be the elegy for Boromir and the North Wind, but who sang
that -- I do think it was Aragorn.

> 8) ...long was the way that fate them bore...

Lay of Beren and Lúthien
(Aragorn in the dell at Weathertop)

> 9) ...but on him mighty doom was laid...

Durin? 'At Mirrormere he stood' (Gimli, of course).

> 10) ...through moor and waste we ride in haste...

The words themselves draw a complete blank for me. Had it been
alliterative, I would have guessed that Théoden spoke some staves
before setting out on the Ride of the Rohirrim, but the style doesn't
seem to fit, and where is that 'waste' they ride through anyway?

No, pass.


I can clearly feel that I haven't been active here for a few months
-- this has been more difficult than I had imagined ;-)

(I am, of course, off to check my results <G>)

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

++?????++ Out of Cheese Error. Redo From Start.
- /Interesting Times/ (Terry Pratchett)

Troels Forchhammer

unread,
Sep 15, 2005, 8:19:22 AM9/15/05
to
In message <news:Xns96D280FF...@131.228.6.98> Troels
Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> enriched us with:
>
> In message <news:l80We.108803$G8.3...@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>
> "Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> enriched us
> with:
>>
>> 1) Cold be hand and heart and bone
>
> That's Gollum during the passage of the Marshes -- Baggins guessed
> it long ago ;-)

Wrong. I was thinking of

The cold hard lands,
they bites our hands,

The question is very good -- much earlier, and one that I had
completely forgotten about ;-)


>> 2) Gondor! Gondor, between the Mountains and the Sea!
>
> ... West wind blew there, ... yes ;-)
>
> But whom ... and when ... ?
>
> Hmm ...
>
> The problem is that it could be almost anybody -- Aragorn,
> Boromir, Faramir, Gandalf (to name just he most likely), and for
> each of them it could fit in several occasions.
>
> Pass :-(

Well, it was one of my four most likely (and even one of the
situations I had in mind for him), but I shall refrain from demanding
an eighth of a point unless it comes to a tie for the last place ;-)

>> 3) O slender as a willow wand! O clearer than clear waters!
>
> The subject is, of course, the River-Woman's Daughter, which
> places it squarely in the House of Tom Bombadil, but Frodo or Tom?
> I'm inclined to suggest Frodo, 'now we know what the songs were
> about' (paraphrasing).

Place was right, wrong singer.

>> 4) Over the land there lies a long shadow
>
> Original speaker, or this time around ;-)
>
> Originally the Seer who was never known as Macbeth (Malbeth?),
> despite the irritating habit of my memory ;-)
>
> In the book his words are recited by Aragorn -- I think it was at
> Helm's Deep, but it could be when the Rangers catch up with them
> or when he speaks to Éowyn in Harrowdale.

Dead right there ;-)

>> 5) To the Sea, to the Sea! The white gulls are crying
>
> Legolas, Minas Tirith

Too easy anyway ;-)

>> Those were first lines. The next five are taken from anywhere in
>> any of the songs...
>>
>> 6) ...foam dyed with blood flamed at sunset...
>
> The song of Nimrodel, IIRC (making it Legolas in Lothlórien)

Wrong!

The 'song of the Mounds of Mundburg' -- oh, well.

>> 7) ...his cloven shield, his broken sword, they to the water
>> brought...
>
> That has to be the elegy for Boromir and the North Wind, but who
> sang that -- I do think it was Aragorn.

Well, that's three I got right (and with one half-right, my partial
result here is 50%, good thing I said I wasn't feeling up to standard
<G>)

>> 8) ...long was the way that fate them bore...
>
> Lay of Beren and Lúthien
> (Aragorn in the dell at Weathertop)

Yup (wasn't all that difficult, though).



>> 9) ...but on him mighty doom was laid...
>
> Durin? 'At Mirrormere he stood' (Gimli, of course).

I'll just shup up, shall I :-(

>> 10) ...through moor and waste we ride in haste...
>
> The words themselves draw a complete blank for me.

Funny thing is -- right after posting, I started my Tolkien Ensemble
playlist, and the first song to come up ... ;-)

So, four and a half right -- perhaps I should claim that eigth point
anyway ;-)

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

Taking fun

Message has been deleted

Derek Broughton

unread,
Sep 15, 2005, 10:17:09 AM9/15/05
to
Troels Forchhammer wrote:

> In message <news:Xns96D280FF...@131.228.6.98> Troels
> Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> enriched us with:
>>
>> In message <news:l80We.108803$G8.3...@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>
>> "Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> enriched us
>> with:
>>>
>>> 1) Cold be hand and heart and bone
>>
>> That's Gollum during the passage of the Marshes -- Baggins guessed
>> it long ago ;-)
>
> Wrong. I was thinking of
>
> The cold hard lands,
> they bites our hands,
>
> The question is very good -- much earlier, and one that I had
> completely forgotten about ;-)

From the barrow, I believe - I think it was the wight, but it could be from
Bombadil's exorcism (I don't think so, though).

> Well, it was one of my four most likely (and even one of the
> situations I had in mind for him), but I shall refrain from demanding
> an eighth of a point unless it comes to a tie for the last place ;-)
>
>>> 3) O slender as a willow wand! O clearer than clear waters!
>>
>> The subject is, of course, the River-Woman's Daughter, which
>> places it squarely in the House of Tom Bombadil, but Frodo or Tom?
>> I'm inclined to suggest Frodo, 'now we know what the songs were
>> about' (paraphrasing).
>
> Place was right, wrong singer.

Bombadil, then! :-)
--
derek

Message has been deleted

Christopher Kreuzer

unread,
Sep 15, 2005, 4:53:22 PM9/15/05
to
Andrew F. Donnell <donn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It's just when things catch on fire, or when ancient demons of the
> netherworld, or of alt.flame crawl out of the shadow, wreathed in
> flames. Then it can be a problem.

No. It is only a problem if they have wings.

Christopher Kreuzer

unread,
Sep 15, 2005, 5:00:49 PM9/15/05
to
Derek Broughton <ne...@pointerstop.ca> wrote:

>>>> 1) Cold be hand and heart and bone

[...]

> From the barrow, I believe - I think it was the wight, but it could
> be from Bombadil's exorcism (I don't think so, though).

Barrow wight.

Bombadil's bit contains:

"Warm now be heart and limb!"

In the second bit he sings over the hobbits.

>>>> 3) O slender as a willow wand! O clearer than clear waters!

Troels and then Troels wrote:
>>> The subject is, of course, the River-Woman's Daughter, which
>>> places it squarely in the House of Tom Bombadil, but Frodo or Tom?
>>> I'm inclined to suggest Frodo, 'now we know what the songs were
>>> about' (paraphrasing).
>>
>> Place was right, wrong singer.
>
> Bombadil, then! :-)

No. It _is_ Frodo!

Bombadil sings something similar, but not identical, in the first song
the hobbits hear. Frodo is later inspired (and surprises himself in the
process) to seranade Goldberry, and the first line of Frodo's song is
the one give above in the quiz.

I wonder if I can mark someone down for marking their own answers
incorrectly? I guess it didn't do any harm, so maybe not... :-)

Christopher Kreuzer

unread,
Sep 15, 2005, 5:45:31 PM9/15/05
to
Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:

>> 5) To the Sea, to the Sea! The white gulls are crying
>
> Legolas, Minas Tirith

Ithilien, actually. :-)

>> 8) ...long was the way that fate them bore...
>
> Lay of Beren and Lúthien
> (Aragorn in the dell at Weathertop)

Ooh! Good one! :-)

>> 10) ...through moor and waste we ride in haste...
>
> The words themselves draw a complete blank for me.

I thought this one would be difficult!

> I can clearly feel that I haven't been active here for a few months
> -- this has been more difficult than I had imagined ;-)

Oh, I think it would have been difficult anyway. I passed silently over
the ones you got completely wrong. Personally, I was surprised, when
scanning the index of first lines of the songs (at the back of LotR),
just how many of them were obscure and difficult to place. Of course,
for the later bit where I extracted lines from _within_ the songs, it
helped to have a book that claims to collect all the songs and poems
from LotR, with Alan Lee illustrations as well!

Christopher Kreuzer

unread,
Sep 15, 2005, 5:49:08 PM9/15/05
to
Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
> Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> enriched us with:
>> "Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> enriched us
>> with:
>>>
>>> 1) Cold be hand and heart and bone
>>
>> That's Gollum during the passage of the Marshes -- Baggins guessed
>> it long ago ;-)
>
> Wrong. I was thinking of
>
> The cold hard lands,
> they bites our hands,

LOL! My trap has been sprung! I noticed that similarity... :-)

> The question is very good -- much earlier, and one that I had
> completely forgotten about ;-)

> I shall refrain from demanding


> an eighth of a point unless it comes to a tie for the last place ;-)

You are currently in first place!
Even without the eighth of a point.

>>> 4) Over the land there lies a long shadow
>>
>> Original speaker, or this time around ;-)

Hmm. I forgot to check for this kind of thing...

>>> 10) ...through moor and waste we ride in haste...
>>
>> The words themselves draw a complete blank for me.
>
> Funny thing is -- right after posting, I started my Tolkien Ensemble
> playlist, and the first song to come up ... ;-)

Amazing!

Christopher Kreuzer

unread,
Sep 15, 2005, 6:09:32 PM9/15/05
to
> Belba Grubb From Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:
>
>> --"Songs and Verses trivia": See (without looking it up) if you can
>> place the speaker, chanter or singer (as the case may be) and setting
>> for some of these first lines:

And yet more... :-)

From anywhere in a song or verse. Give the person(s) who sung it, and to
whom, and where, and explain what the singer is talking about. Sneakily,
I've sometimes gone outside LotR...

1) "Or there maybe 'tis cloudless night"
2) "And now all those lands lie under the wave"
3) "Through shadows to the edge of night"
4) "I walk in the South"
5) "A wanderer escaped from night"
6) "Far over the misty mountains cold"
7) "Though all to ruin fell the world"
8) "He chanted a song of wizardry"
9) "In a cave in the hills he dwelt alone"
10) "A lord of wisdom throned he sat"

Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted

Emma Pease

unread,
Sep 15, 2005, 9:26:24 PM9/15/05
to
In article <wimWe.109411$G8.5...@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>, Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
>> Belba Grubb From Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:
>>
>>> --"Songs and Verses trivia": See (without looking it up) if you can
>>> place the speaker, chanter or singer (as the case may be) and setting
>>> for some of these first lines:
>
> And yet more... :-)
>
> From anywhere in a song or verse. Give the person(s) who sung it, and to
> whom, and where, and explain what the singer is talking about. Sneakily,
> I've sometimes gone outside LotR...
>
> 1) "Or there maybe 'tis cloudless night"
don't know

> 2) "And now all those lands lie under the wave"

Fangorn to Pippin and Merry and he is talking about Beleriand.

> 3) "Through shadows to the edge of night"

About Earendil not sure whom or where.

> 4) "I walk in the South"

Sam's song about the oliphant while in Ithilien.

> 5) "A wanderer escaped from night"

not sure

> 6) "Far over the misty mountains cold"

The dwarves in the Hobbit at Bilbo's tea party.

> 7) "Though all to ruin fell the world"

Beren about Luthien when he despairs of his quest while in the dungeons of
Sauron.

> 8) "He chanted a song of wizardry"

Finrod while trying to defend himself and his people including Beren
against Sauron

> 9) "In a cave in the hills he dwelt alone"

Sam's song about a troll after the party finds the stone trolls on the
way to Rivendell.

> 10) "A lord of wisdom throned he sat"

not sure. It is likely about either Elrond or Thingol.


--
\----
|\* | Emma Pease Net Spinster
|_\/ Die Luft der Freiheit weht

Troels Forchhammer

unread,
Sep 16, 2005, 4:19:39 AM9/16/05
to
In message <news:5ilWe.109367$G8.8...@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>

"Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> enriched us with:
>

>

> Troels and then Troels wrote:
>>>> The subject is, of course, the River-Woman's Daughter, which
>>>> places it squarely in the House of Tom Bombadil, but Frodo or
>>>> Tom? I'm inclined to suggest Frodo, 'now we know what the songs
>>>> were about' (paraphrasing).
>>>
>>> Place was right, wrong singer.

[...]

> No. It _is_ Frodo!

Doh!

I never looked further one I found Bombadil singing the first part fo
the line, but he sand 'the water' where Frodo sang 'clear water'.

> Bombadil sings something similar, but not identical, in the first
> song the hobbits hear. Frodo is later inspired (and surprises
> himself in the process) to seranade Goldberry, and the first line
> of Frodo's song is the one give above in the quiz.

'Fair lady Goldberry!' he said again. 'Now the joy that
was hidden in the songs we heard is made plain to me.

I even got the place right ... :-D

> I wonder if I can mark someone down for marking their own answers
> incorrectly? I guess it didn't do any harm, so maybe not... :-)

Please don't -- this way I can at least get half of the questions
right ;-)

Troels Forchhammer

unread,
Sep 16, 2005, 5:12:37 AM9/16/05
to
In message <news:wimWe.109411$G8.5...@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>

"Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> enriched us with:
>
> And yet more... :-)

And I just can't help myself -- I have to give it a try ;-)

> From anywhere in a song or verse. Give the person(s) who sung it,
> and to whom, and where, and explain what the singer is talking
> about. Sneakily, I've sometimes gone outside LotR...

<style='mode:heavy_sarcasm'>
Yeah, well -- it's not like it was really difficult when you just
stuck to LotR, was it ...
</style>

;-)

I am far from sure of any of these (even those where I dare venture a
guess).


> 1) "Or there maybe 'tis cloudless night"

That could be Sam's song in the tower of Cirith Ungol -- it does have
some of that melancholy that I associate with that song. If correct
he was only singing for himself in his misery and surrender after
failing to find Frodo (but of course his song brought the one
remaining Orc out to punish Frodo, and thus they were reunited).

> 2) "And now all those lands lie under the wave"

I first thought of Númenor, but on second thought think it's about
Beleriand. Not that it helps me all that much right now ...

Let's see:

The song about Beren and Lúthien takes place in Beleriand.
And Treebeard has a song about walking the various places of
Beleriand in the different seasons.

Actually I think Treebeard's song is the best guess. (To Pippin and
Merry, in Fangorn and about being an Ent).

> 3) "Through shadows to the edge of night"

Eärendil was a Mariner?

Well, it's the only one that I can recall that would fit it at all,
so I might as well make it my guess ;-)

It was of course recited/sung by Bilbo in Rivendell in the Hall of
Fire after the feast. Mostly to Elves, but to a few Hobbits and
Dwarves as well (plus a Maia -- I think the Man, Aragorn, was gone
again, but maybe not). He had set his audience a task -- to tell
which parts were by himself and which by Aragorn ('or to the
shepherd, perhaps' -- I love it <G>).

> 4) "I walk in the South"

'Oliphaunt am I'?

Sam's nursery riddle, given to Frodo and (mostly) Gollum in a small
hole near the Black Gate when Gollumn failed to understand his
question of whether there were Oliphaunts in the army of Southrons
that Gollum had just observed passing through the Black Gate.

> 5) "A wanderer escaped from night"

It reminds me of Gandalf ...

Frodo's elegy for Gandalf while in Lórien?

First to himself and later the faded fragments he remembered (and
which we get to hear) to Sam (who wanted to add something about
Gandalf's fireworks, 'the finest rockets ever seen', IIRC).

> 6) "Far over the misty mountains cold"

It could be something from the Hobbit ...

The song the Dwarves sang for Bilbo in Bag End the night before they
went off? In which case they would of course be singing about the
Lonely Mountain, its riches and their guardian.

> 7) "Though all to ruin fell the world"

Blank.

> 8) "He chanted a song of wizardry"

&#$@*!!!!

I /know/ that one ...

I distinctly remember the line, but I just can't remember where from
...

It /could/ be from Aragorn singing the tale of Tinúviel near
Weathertop (it would be the Sauron vs. Húan/Lúthien battle). In that
case it was to encourage the four Hobbits, removing their fears of
the Nazgûl for a while.

> 9) "In a cave in the hills he dwelt alone"

Mîm? ;-)

Or 'the Ballad of Bilbo Baggins' ... LOL

Sorry ... but, to be serious, I don't have a clue.

<ten minutes later>

The Troll!

Sam's song about the Troll, 'Troll sat alone ...' and, Tom, was it?,
who wanted the bone back ...

At the discovery of the three petrified trolls during the flight to
the Ford -- after a good laughter Sam sings this song which he has
himself made, to the rest of the party ('I learn a lot about Sam on
this trip, said Frodo' -- but didn't he also say that they needed a
song? I think that was what made Sam sing his song).

> 10) "A lord of wisdom throned he sat"

At least that isn't about Sam or his Troll ;-)

Again I imagine that I recall the line, but have no idea where it
might be from.


I'm drawing far too many complete blanks here for my comfort.
Obviously I need to start re-reading.

OK, I've been staring at these lines for too long now, so I'll just
post it ;-)

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

This isn't right. This isn't even wrong.
- Wolfgang Pauli, on a paper submitted by a physicist colleague
(Thus speaks the quantum physicist)

Derek Broughton

unread,
Sep 15, 2005, 9:20:36 PM9/15/05
to
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:

> Derek Broughton <ne...@pointerstop.ca> wrote:
>
> Troels and then Troels wrote:
>>>> The subject is, of course, the River-Woman's Daughter, which
>>>> places it squarely in the House of Tom Bombadil, but Frodo or Tom?
>>>> I'm inclined to suggest Frodo, 'now we know what the songs were
>>>> about' (paraphrasing).
>>>
>>> Place was right, wrong singer.
>>
>> Bombadil, then! :-)
>
> No. It _is_ Frodo!

Oooh! He tricked me!
--
derek

Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted

Troels Forchhammer

unread,
Sep 16, 2005, 11:28:23 AM9/16/05
to
In message <news:Xns96D37153...@131.228.6.99> Troels

Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> enriched us with:
>
> In message <news:wimWe.109411$G8.5...@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>
> "Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> enriched us
> with:
>>
>> And yet more... :-)
>
> And I just can't help myself -- I have to give it a try ;-)

OK, I'll do some self-marking this time as well ;-)

<snip

>> 1) "Or there maybe 'tis cloudless night"
>
> That could be Sam's song in the tower of Cirith Ungol

And it was.

>> 2) "And now all those lands lie under the wave"
>

[...]


> And Treebeard has a song about walking the various places of
> Beleriand in the different seasons.
>
> Actually I think Treebeard's song is the best guess. (To Pippin
> and Merry, in Fangorn and about being an Ent).

<... dancing ...>

I swear, it's pure luck.

>> 3) "Through shadows to the edge of night"
>
> Eärendil was a Mariner?

Not at all (but then, it couldn't continue that way -- the luck had to
run out). I like that song very much, but there was no way that I would
have guessed this. Kudos to Christopher for a devillish choice ;-)

>> 4) "I walk in the South"
>
> 'Oliphaunt am I'?

Sure ... ;-)

>> 5) "A wanderer escaped from night"
>
> It reminds me of Gandalf ...
>
> Frodo's elegy for Gandalf while in Lórien?

No. I suppose it doesn't help that I used the right answer wrongly in
another question ;-)

>> 6) "Far over the misty mountains cold"
>
> It could be something from the Hobbit ...
>
> The song the Dwarves sang for Bilbo in Bag End the night before
> they went off?

Yup.

>> 7) "Though all to ruin fell the world"
>
> Blank.

'Wicked! Tricksy! False!' ;-)

After finding it, I can't even say (in honesty, at least) that I
remembered that there was such a song at all.

I /definitely/ need to re-read my books -- according to internal
chronology, this time, I think.

(Troels was only joking. Always forgives, he does, yes, yes, even
Christopher's little trickes. Oh yes, nice Christopher, nice Troelssss)

>> 8) "He chanted a song of wizardry"
>

[...]

> It /could/ be from Aragorn singing the tale of Tinúviel near
> Weathertop (it would be the Sauron vs. Húan/Lúthien battle).

The general subject matter was right, as was the singer in the song,
but not the singer /of/ the song ... ;-)

>> 9) "In a cave in the hills he dwelt alone"
>

[...]


>
> Sam's song about the Troll, 'Troll sat alone ...' and, Tom, was
> it?, who wanted the bone back ...

Back on track again ;-)


>> 10) "A lord of wisdom throned he sat"

Only he didn't -- not on a proper throne.

Oh well, no worse than last time, but we seriously need to find your
weakness (Elvish declination, perhaps) and post a quiz or two on that
;-)

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought
which they avoid.
- Soren Kierkegaard

Dirk Thierbach

unread,
Sep 16, 2005, 12:39:57 PM9/16/05
to
Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@thisisfake.invalid> wrote:
> Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> enriched us with:
>> "Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> enriched us

>>> 7) "Though all to ruin fell the world"

>> Blank.

> 'Wicked! Tricksy! False!' ;-)

> After finding it, I can't even say (in honesty, at least) that I
> remembered that there was such a song at all.

I remember that one very well, for some reason, especially the
following rhyme "backward hurled", and I can even complete about half
of the remaining lines by heart. Must have impressed me back when I
read it for the first time.

- Dirk

Troels Forchhammer

unread,
Sep 17, 2005, 4:52:18 PM9/17/05
to
In message <news:20050916163957...@dthierbach.news.arcor.de>
Dirk Thierbach <dthie...@usenet.arcornews.de> enriched us with:
>

Farewell sweet earth and northern sky
[...]


Though all to ruin fell the world

and were dissolved and backward hurled
unmade into the old abyss,
[...]



> I remember that one very well, for some reason, especially the
> following rhyme "backward hurled", and I can even complete about half
> of the remaining lines by heart.

I'm impressed!

> Must have impressed me back when I read it for the first time.

I have a distinct suspicion that my eyes glazed over when I tried to
read it first.

I don't think the peotry has, in general, been translated very well in
the Danish version, and I carried my indifference for it with me when I
began to read the English versions, so it has only been in the last few
years that I've started to appreciate it for its beauty (complaining to
myself about what I have missed all these years, obviously <G>)

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

Still round the corner there may wait
A new road or a secret gate;
And though I oft have passed them by,
A day will come at last when I
Shall take the hidden paths that run
West of the Moon, East of the Sun.

Christopher Kreuzer

unread,
Sep 18, 2005, 7:20:25 PM9/18/05
to
Andrew F. Donnell <donn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Christopher Kreuzer wrote:

<snip>

>> 3) "Through shadows to the edge of night"
>

> Hmmm...in the PJ movies, it is sung by Pippin in ROTK, for the
> entertainment of Denethor. But I don't know where it really comes
> from.

Well remembered. I thought that this line being used in the films would
_help_ people remember stuff. Maybe not! :-)

Congrats on the correct answers (I snipped most of them).

>> 7) "Though all to ruin fell the world"
>> 8) "He chanted a song of wizardry"
>

> I want to say it was the merry passenger, the messenger, the mariner
> from "Errantry," to try to marry a pretty butterfly. I'm not quite
> sure though--I know there is something to the effect of wizardry
> there, but this could also fit any number of other places....

Haven't read Errantry.

Ooops!

Must read it now before a quiz is set about it... And I mustn't reveal
what else I haven't read by Tolkien!

Christopher Kreuzer

unread,
Sep 18, 2005, 7:26:42 PM9/18/05
to
Emma Pease <em...@kanpai.stanford.edu> wrote:

>> 3) "Through shadows to the edge of night"
> About Earendil not sure whom or where.

Hmm. This did trap several people.

It wasn't deliberate. Honest! :-)

>> 7) "Though all to ruin fell the world"
> Beren about Luthien when he despairs of his quest while in the
> dungeons of Sauron.

Actually sung after that. It is when he has left Luthien and ridden off
alone towards Angband. But Luthien, following him, hears his song, and
finds him. And they then journey on together.

I'm impressed you got the two Silmarillion songs.

I was rather amazed to only be able to find two songs/verses in 'The
Silmarillion'. Can anyone find any others?

>> 10) "A lord of wisdom throned he sat"
> not sure. It is likely about either Elrond or Thingol.

This was a bit sneaky as well. I've often wondered why Tolkien describes
Gandalf as sitting on a throne. I guess it is either a metaphorical
reference to him having lots of wisdom, or is was a desperate attempt by
Tolkien to find something to rhyme with hat...

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard

"This tale grew in the telling, until it became a history of the Great
War of the Ring..." - J.R.R. Tolkien (Foreward to LotR)

Christopher Kreuzer

unread,
Sep 18, 2005, 7:28:55 PM9/18/05
to
Alison <news....@ntlworld.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 15 Sep 2005 21:45:31 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer"
> <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>>
>>>> 10) ...through moor and waste we ride in haste...
>>>
>>> The words themselves draw a complete blank for me.
>>
>> I thought this one would be difficult!
>
> Isn't it one of the hobbits' walking songs?

Yup!

I might, if I have time, add the NEXT line for each example Belba and I
have posted in this thread. See if that helps make them more
recognisable.

Christopher Kreuzer

unread,
Sep 18, 2005, 7:37:27 PM9/18/05
to
Alison <news....@ntlworld.com> wrote:

>> 8) "He chanted a song of wizardry"
>

> Sounds like the metre of Bilbo's Earendil song at Rivendell.

Well, you answered 7 and only got this one wrong.

The metre is different in the Earendil song. It seems that the first
line of that song, like the one above, has 9 syllables (Earendil was a
mariner), but the subsequent lines in the Earendil song are 8 syllables
long.

Which leads me to conclude that, for poetry, Earendil has three
syllables, not four. And maybe it should never have four syllables. I
don't know.

Christopher Kreuzer

unread,
Sep 18, 2005, 7:41:02 PM9/18/05
to

Possibly the fact that it has been used often as a .sig file in these
newsgroups might also help. It was that .sig file that reminded me what
a good piece of verse that is. Also, thinking about that and the other
example of verse in 'The Silmarillion' led me to consider why these ones
appear and nothing else. But that is another post...

Christopher Kreuzer

unread,
Sep 18, 2005, 7:59:33 PM9/18/05
to
Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
> Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> enriched us with:
>> "Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> enriched us
>> with:
>>>
>>> And yet more... :-)
>>
>> And I just can't help myself -- I have to give it a try ;-)
>
> OK, I'll do some self-marking this time as well ;-)

That's a much more civilised way to do it. Plus I've been away for a few
days, so I was hoping this would happen! :-)

>>> 1) "Or there maybe 'tis cloudless night"
>>
>> That could be Sam's song in the tower of Cirith Ungol
>
> And it was.

More people got this than I thought they would.

>>> 2) "And now all those lands lie under the wave"
>>
> [...]
>> And Treebeard has a song about walking the various places of
>> Beleriand in the different seasons.
>>
>> Actually I think Treebeard's song is the best guess. (To Pippin
>> and Merry, in Fangorn and about being an Ent).
>
> <... dancing ...>
>
> I swear, it's pure luck.

It wasn't _that_ difficult! :-)

>>> 3) "Through shadows to the edge of night"
>>
>> Eärendil was a Mariner?
>
> Not at all (but then, it couldn't continue that way -- the luck had to
> run out). I like that song very much, but there was no way that I
> would have guessed this. Kudos to Christopher for a devillish choice
> ;-)

Sadly it was purely accidental. But yes, it did turn out to be a trap.

>>> 4) "I walk in the South"
>>
>> 'Oliphaunt am I'?
>
> Sure ... ;-)

I guess the short 5-syllable metre gave it away.
But again, more people got this than I expected.

>>> 5) "A wanderer escaped from night"
>>
>> It reminds me of Gandalf ...
>>
>> Frodo's elegy for Gandalf while in Lórien?
>
> No. I suppose it doesn't help that I used the right answer wrongly in
> another question ;-)

LOL!

This is one of my most memorised lines, to which I would always
automatically add the following line:

"to haven white he came at last"

Hence my idea that giving TWO lines for a fragment from a verse would
make it much more memorable. I'm going to do this for the ones I've
posted, which is not a fair test. I'd have to try and set up two control
groups somehow! And then give one group one-line fragments, and the
other one two-line fragments. Plus a series of control experiments to
verify the similarity of the two groups.

>>> 6) "Far over the misty mountains cold"
>>
>> It could be something from the Hobbit ...
>>
>> The song the Dwarves sang for Bilbo in Bag End the night before
>> they went off?
>
> Yup.

Probably one of the most memorable songs.

>>> 7) "Though all to ruin fell the world"
>>
>> Blank.
>
> 'Wicked! Tricksy! False!' ;-)
>
> After finding it, I can't even say (in honesty, at least) that I
> remembered that there was such a song at all.
>
> I /definitely/ need to re-read my books -- according to internal
> chronology, this time, I think.
>
> (Troels was only joking. Always forgives, he does, yes, yes, even
> Christopher's little trickes. Oh yes, nice Christopher, nice
> Troelssss)

LOL! No need to forgive! Just cook up a quiz full of little traps!

>>> 8) "He chanted a song of wizardry"
>>
> [...]
>
>> It /could/ be from Aragorn singing the tale of Tinúviel near
>> Weathertop (it would be the Sauron vs. Húan/Lúthien battle).
>
> The general subject matter was right, as was the singer in the song,
> but not the singer /of/ the song ... ;-)

Yes. Getting Sauron was almost worth a point. I thought people might go
for Gandalf in Frodo's lament for him.

>>> 9) "In a cave in the hills he dwelt alone"
>>
> [...]
>>
>> Sam's song about the Troll, 'Troll sat alone ...' and, Tom, was
>> it?, who wanted the bone back ...
>
> Back on track again ;-)

Did you work out your score?

>>> 10) "A lord of wisdom throned he sat"
>
> Only he didn't -- not on a proper throne.
>
> Oh well, no worse than last time, but we seriously need to find your
> weakness (Elvish declination, perhaps) and post a quiz or two on that
> ;-)

Actually thinking up the format for a quiz is often the difficult bit. I
was recently musing on which name (place or object or person) is the
longest word in Tolkien. Excluding Entish is a good start! Gilthoniel
and Lothlorien was the best I could do (10 letters), then I thought of
Laurelindorenan (15 letters).

Christopher Kreuzer

unread,
Sep 19, 2005, 5:59:42 PM9/19/05
to
John Jones <jo...@jones5011.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
> "Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:SImXe.111127$G8.6...@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...

>>>> 10) "A lord of wisdom throned he sat"
>>>
>>> not sure. It is likely about either Elrond or Thingol.
>>
>> This was a bit sneaky as well. I've often wondered why Tolkien
>> describes Gandalf as sitting on a throne. I guess it is either a
>> metaphorical reference to him having lots of wisdom, or is was a
>> desperate attempt by Tolkien to find something to rhyme with hat...
>>
> I always thought that it was a reference to Frodo seeing Gandalf
> sitting with Elrond and Glorfindel at the high table in Rivendell
> (after he recovers from the Morgul-knife wound).

That must be it!

"...he had never before seen Elrond, of whom so many tales spoke; and as
they sat upon his right hand and his left, Glorfindel, and even Gandalf,
whom he thought he knew so well, were revealed as lords of dignity and
power." (Many Meetings)

That's cleared up that little niggle. Thanks!

Message has been deleted

John Jones

unread,
Sep 19, 2005, 12:47:54 PM9/19/05
to
"Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:SImXe.111127$G8.6...@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
> >> 10) "A lord of wisdom throned he sat"
> > not sure. It is likely about either Elrond or Thingol.
>
> This was a bit sneaky as well. I've often wondered why Tolkien describes
> Gandalf as sitting on a throne. I guess it is either a metaphorical
> reference to him having lots of wisdom, or is was a desperate attempt by
> Tolkien to find something to rhyme with hat...
>

Odysseus

unread,
Sep 20, 2005, 3:24:21 AM9/20/05
to
"Andrew F. Donnell" wrote:
>
<snip>
>
> Now I pose my own question (not as a quiz, but because I'd like to
> know): What is a dumbledor? For our errant hero does battle with
> them, "He battled with the Dumbledors, the Hummerhorns, and Honeybees,
> and won the Golden Honeycomb." I tried to Google it, but I got too
> many hits of typoes on Harry Potter webpages. Contextually, it sounds
> like a bee, but I can't say as I've ever heard of that particular brand
> of bee....

A dor is a scarab beetle, a member of the genus _Geotrupes_ in
particular, but also including the cockchafer (AKA May bug) and, in
North America, the June beetle. These all produce a loud, clattering
buzz when they fly. "Dumbledor(e)" can mean the same, but according
to the _OED_ it's most often applied to the bumblebee. (This may
derive from an archaic use of "dor" for a wide variety of buzzing
insects, including locusts, bees and wasps.) Accordingly I think it
likely that Tolkien meant the bee, as you surmised.

Google tip: to exclude an unwanted context for your search term,
include it in your entry with a hyphen in front of it. In this case

dumbledor -potter -hogwarts

narrows it down pretty well.

--
Odysseus

Derek Broughton

unread,
Sep 19, 2005, 7:29:45 PM9/19/05
to
Andrew F. Donnell wrote:

> It turns out I wasn't that close anyway: "So long he studied wizardry."


>
> Now I pose my own question (not as a quiz, but because I'd like to
> know): What is a dumbledor? For our errant hero does battle with
> them, "He battled with the Dumbledors, the Hummerhorns, and Honeybees,
> and won the Golden Honeycomb." I tried to Google it, but I got too
> many hits of typoes on Harry Potter webpages.

Shame. "dumbledor -potter" gives a definition in link #2 :-)

> Contextually, it sounds
> like a bee, but I can't say as I've ever heard of that particular brand
> of bee....

Bingo: A bumblebee; also, a cockchafer.
--
derek

Message has been deleted

Belba Grubb From Stock

unread,
Sep 20, 2005, 11:09:51 AM9/20/05
to
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
> Emma Pease <em...@kanpai.stanford.edu> wrote:
>
>
>>>3) "Through shadows to the edge of night"
>>
>>About Earendil not sure whom or where.
>
>
> Hmm. This did trap several people.
>
> It wasn't deliberate. Honest! :-)

Fortunately, Donald Swann had set it to music and I was just thinking
about that: it's part of the hobbit walking song they sing in the Woody
End, isn't it?

Barb

Belba Grubb From Stock

unread,
Sep 20, 2005, 11:15:46 AM9/20/05
to
Andrew F. Donnell wrote:
> I wonder if any of you folk have the "J.R.R. Tolkien Audio Collection?"

No, and I hadn't thought of it until now; it sounds wonderful and I MUST
have it. A quick Web search turns up quite a bit on it, and I hope to
get it soon; thanks for bringing it up!

Barb

Steve Morrison

unread,
Sep 20, 2005, 11:06:42 PM9/20/05
to
Andrew F. Donnell wrote:
(snip)

> So I wonder if the Harry Potter Dumbledore is supposed to be a
> bumblebee, or have certain associations of that nature? Probably,
> since a lot of the names in those books have only very loosely veiled
> meanings (Professor Lupin, for example).
>
> Thanks,
> Andy

In an interview, Rowling said:

"Dumbledore is an old English word meaning bumblebee. Because Albus
Dumbledore is very fond of music, I always imagined him as sort of
humming to himself a lot."

The interview is available here:

http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/1999/1099-connectiontransc.html

Christopher Kreuzer

unread,
Sep 21, 2005, 7:59:38 PM9/21/05
to
Belba Grubb From Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:

<snip>

> There are many other verses and songs still to be explored, though.

Indeed. Forgive me here for reposting stuff I've written in the past on
various songs and verses in LotR. I've added some new stuff as well, up
front, so hopefully there will be something new for everyone.

Firstly though, to really get the power of some of the verses in LotR,
especially the more dramatic, and those that have alliteration and
onomatopeia, you absolutely _have_ to read them out aloud.

1) Songs in LotR that rise to a crescendo and then plumb the depths of
despair, sometimes ending on a note of hope (concerning hope, see the
essay 'On Fairy-Stories'). In general, many of Tolkien's songs and
stories end on a sombre note, but some have a very definite contrast
built into them. The songs where I first noticed this are:

(a) Gimli's Song of Durin ("The world was young, the mountains
green...") as sung in Moria, in Khazad-dum, in the chapter 'A Journey in
the Dark'.

This tells the story of the rise of Durin's Folk, and their fall. The
song rises to a crescendo at the point where "the trumpets rang", and
then the mood changes completely. The description is a shattering
contrast with the first line given above ("The world is grey, the
mountains old"), and the bleakness is driven home with the next few
lines ("the darkness dwells in Durin's halls). The end of the song does
show that not all hope is lost ("But still the sunken stars appear).

(b) Treebeard's song ("In the willow-meads of Tasarinan...") as sung in
the chapter 'Treebeard', to Merry and Pippin.

Treebeard's verse-ending comments rise to a crescendo as he goes through
the seasons and the lands of Beleriand, from 'good', to 'best', to 'more
than my desire', ending with 'my voice went up and sang in the sky'.
Then we have the fall into the bleakness of the present-day: "And now
all those lands lie under the wave".

(c) Lament for Theoden ("From dark Dunharrow in the dim morning...") as
told in the chapter 'The Muster of Rohan'.

The alliteration here can give rise to a pounding rhythm, which can be
used to depict the Rohirrim riding off to battle in Gondor. This can be
read as building to a crescendo, especially at the end from "East and
onwards rode the Eorlingas". If you quicken the reading pace, you can
end with a fade out to silence, mimicking the last line "sank into
silence, so the songs tell us".

2) Closely-related to the above, there are some songs that have 'acts'
built into them. Namely the song of the Ent and the Entwife ("When
Spring unfolds the beechen leaf"), and the Lament for Boromir ("Through
Rohan over fen and field"). Here, the mood switches between verses and
singers, from the different winds, and between the different seasons,
and the mood of the Entwife and the reaction of the one awaiting
Boromir's return. This use of the seasons is also seen in Treebeard's
Song (mentioned under 1.b)

3) A closer look at the last two lines of "Where now the horse and the
rider..." as written in the chapter 'The King of the Golden Hall', based
on a post I made to RABT on 07/01/2004.

"Who shall gather the smoke of the dead wood burning,
or behold the flowing years from the Sea returning?"

This is a lament on the irreversible passage of time.

Once wood is burnt, the smoke cannot be gathered together again. This is
technically entropy, the tendancy of the universe to become more
disordered, but the poem is still a lament on the inevitability of decay
and change and death. The reference to 'dead' wood reinforces the link
to human mortality, as expressed earlier in the poem.

Similarly, the bit about years flowing from the Sea is meant to
represent a
reversal of the flow of time. The 'years' bit tells you that it is
talking about time. The 'flowing from the Sea' bit tells you that time
is running backwards, in the sense that rivers flow towards the Sea and
so the flow of a river from the Sea evokes an image of time running
backwards.

Both of these are impossible, so you could say that the final two lines
are a lament on how no-one can stop the onrushing flow of time, carrying
you from birth to death, from the spring down the river and out into the
wide open Sea. Or the flame of life burning bright but eventually being
extinguished with only smoke left, drifting on the wind. Powerful
images.

Also remember that Aragorn says: "Thus spoke a forgotten poet long ago
in
Rohan, recalling how tall and fair was Eorl the Young, who rode down out
of
the North; and there were wings upon the feet of his steed, Felarof,
father of horses." So the poem could also be read as a lament for the
passing of the Golden Age of Rohan.

Even more relevant is Legolas's comment just before Aragorn translates
the
poem: "But I cannot guess what it means, save that it is laden with the
sadness of Mortal Men."

The major theme running through the poem is human mortality.

4) And, finally, a closer look at that 'Song of Durin' ("The world was
young the mountains green..."), that Gimli sings in Moria in the chapter
'A Journey in the Dark'. This is mostly based on a post I made to AFT
and RABT on 16/05/2004.

This is a lovely atmospheric song. I like the way the mood changes from
the 'beginning of things' and 'ancient days' (verses 1 and 2) to the
'height of Moria's glory' (verses 3, 4 and 5), which has a slow rising
rhythm (verse 3), and then a nice beating rhythm like a hammer on an
anvil (verse 4) and then a triumphant flourish, with the trumpets
ringing at the gates (verse 5).

The contrast with the final verse is stark. The mood plunges from glory
to deep grey despair (verse 6), much like the sudden onslaught of the
Balrog on the dwarves of Khazad-dum. Instead of reading this quickly and
rhythmically like you should verse 4, verse 6 is slow and sombre. Much
more 'sotto voce' (quieter) than verse 5.

Then there is the little catch-phrase that Sam likes so much:

"In Moria, in Khazad-dum".

This provides a little flourish in verse 6, and the final lines give
some hope and prompt a recovery from despair. The "but still the sunken
stars appear" bit, reminds me of Sam's Song in the Orc Tower ("In
western lands beneath the Sun...[...] I will not say the Day is done,
nor bid the Stars farewell").

Steuard Jensen

unread,
Sep 23, 2005, 11:48:31 AM9/23/05
to
I was too busy to respond in this thread when it first appeared (some
would say I still am...), but Christopher mentioned the quiz(es) over
here so I thought I'd give them a quick spin. :) Belba's original
article has already expired on my server, so I've copied her quiz
questions here from Google as well.

Quoth "Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> in article
<l80We.108803$G8.3...@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>:


> Belba Grubb From Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:

> > --"Songs and Verses trivia": See (without looking it up) if you can
> > place the speaker, chanter or singer (as the case may be) and setting
> > for some of these first lines:

> > "All that is gold does not glitter..." ("Easy!" said Bilbo.)

We first see this verse in Gandalf's letter to Frodo, and I seem to
recall that Aragorn then described himself with this phrase before
realizing that it was in the letter. But I believe that the first
full _recitation_ of the verse was by Bilbo to Boromir in Rivendell.

> > "Sing hey! for the bath at close of the day..." (Chestnuts,
> > chestnuts," he hissed.)

At first I thought this was Pippin in the bath at Crickhollow, but no,
that's a _different_ hobbit bath song. Fond of creature comforts,
those hobbits. So this must be sung by the hobbits on the _way_ to
Crickhollow (I hope!), but I'm not entirely sure when. It might
actually be what they were singing when they were interrupted by the
Nazgul cry, on the way to Maggot's farm.

> > Right. Something a little tougher:
> > "An Elven-maid there was of old..."

Legolas, singing of Nimrodel as the Fellowship enters Lothlorien.

But sadly, the only version that is really coming to mind is the one
from /Bored of the Rings/! ("But in the morning he said to her that
he loved another,/and was a part-time postal clerk and lived home with
his mother." ... "The same thing happened twice last week/Oh heaven
help the working Elf!")

> > "Ere iron was found or tree was hewn..."

Well that's early! I'm not 100% certain, but I think that this must
be the beginning of Gimli's song about Durin. (Leave it to a dwarf to
begin a poem with hewing trees...)

> > "When spring unfolds the beechen leaf, and sap is in the
> > bough...."

Treebeard, singing the Ent/Entwife song.

> >And this absolutely stumps me:

> > "Silver flow the streams for Celos to Erui..."

This is a verse about Gondor, I know that. I think it's the one that
Aragorn chants as he pauses to look at the White Mountains while
chasing the Uruk-hai.

But it might be by Gandalf at some point instead; I know there were at
least two Gondor verses in the book. (Heck, it could even be
Faramir.) [For the record, I was _thinking_ all this second paragraph
while typing the answer above, but I didn't actually write it down
until I got to #2 below.]

> A few more... :-)
>
> 1) Cold be hand and heart and bone

So we're back to "chestnuts", eh? The Barrow-wight, laying a spell on
the hobbits.

> 2) Gondor! Gondor, between the Mountains and the Sea!

Damn. _This_ looks more like the one that Aragorn chants when he sees
Gondor from afar while chasing the Uruk-hai. But I don't think it
would be fair to correct my earlier answer at this point, since that
was responding to an earlier post.

> 3) O slender as a willow wand! O clearer than clear waters!

This is certainly _about_ Goldberry. My first instinct is actually
that this verse is the one by _Frodo_, surprising himself with his own
eloquence upon first seeing her. This verse is a bit too un-goofy for
Bombadil himself, I think (it's a favorite of mine). But still, it
could be his instead.

> 4) Over the land there lies a long shadow

I believe this is the opening of the Words of the Seer. As I recall,
we first hear them in the book from Aragorn, but their author was, oh
shoot, something vaguely like "Malbuth"?

> 5) To the Sea, to the Sea! The white gulls are crying

Legolas. He really wants to go to the Sea, "home of my people
forever", after hearing the gulls after seizing the Corsairs' ships at
Pelargir.

> Those were first lines. The next five are taken from anywhere in any of
> the songs...

> 6) ...foam dyed with blood flamed at sunset...

This sounds like it comes from the song of Rohan about the Battle of
the Pelennor Fields. No speaker given, as far as I recall.

> 7) ...his cloven shield, his broken sword, they to the water brought...

I'm going to guess that this was the companions' lament for Boromir,
presumably either the "North Wind" or "West Wind" bit. I have no idea
whether it was sung by Aragorn or Legolas; if forced to guess, I think
I'd say the latter.

> 8) ...long was the way that fate them bore...

Aragorn's song of Luthien. This is the part where he truncates the
entire core of the story, in one of the more drastic poetic
abridgments in literature. :)

> 9) ...but on him mighty doom was laid...

I'm not recognizing this right off, so I can only try to guess from
the content of the line itself. And with that in mind, I'm going to
guess that this is a line deep in Bilbo's song of Earendil, another
favorite of mine despite the fact that I've never learned close to the
whole thing. (And I think that the "more polished" version in HoMe is
better than the one that was actually (accidentally?) published in
LotR, for what it's worth.)

> 10) ...through moor and waste we ride in haste...

The Conspirators' song in Crickhollow, I believe. "We must away! We
must away! We ride before the break of day!" Where else but the
Shire would we see such a simple rhyming scheme? :)

The handy thing about waiting so long, of course, is that I can
immediately check how well I did! :)

Steuard Jensen

Steuard Jensen

unread,
Sep 23, 2005, 1:02:48 PM9/23/05
to
Quoth "Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> in article
<wimWe.109411$G8.5...@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>:

> > Belba Grubb From Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:
> >> --"Songs and Verses trivia":
> And yet more... :-)

> From anywhere in a song or verse. Give the person(s) who sung it,
> and to whom, and where, and explain what the singer is talking
> about. Sneakily, I've sometimes gone outside LotR...

Evil!

> 1) "Or there maybe 'tis cloudless night"

Ok, so these have gotten harder. I'm not coming up with anything for
this one at all, and I probably shouldn't take the time to really
think hard about it.

> 2) "And now all those lands lie under the wave"

Is this honestly from a poem? I thought Treebeard said something like
this _after_ reciting his poetic words about Beleriand ("In the
willow-meads of Tarsonin I walked in the spring", or some such; I'm
sure I've gotten the details and spellings there entirely wrong,
mind). I _think_ that verse was to Merry and Pippin in Fangorn, and
that he only alludes back to it when talking to Celeborn and Galadriel
in Isengard. If it's not from that poem, I really have no idea.

> 3) "Through shadows to the edge of night"

Gah. All that's coming to mind is Billy Boyd's version! And I just
looked up the original a few months ago, too... where was it?

Ah, yes! "Home is away, the world's ahead". That's the one that's
sung by the three hobbits as they're walking through the woods near
Maggot's farm. "And now to bed! And NOW to bed!", sang Pippin, but
"Hush, what's that?", said Frodo, as they hear the Nazgul cry. (This
song is much peppier in the book version than in the depressing but
beautiful movie version. It's still hard to believe that Billy wrote
and sang the tune himself in just a couple of days...)

Am I right this time? Oh, and no, I'm really not sure what the song
is talking about, apart from generally journeying.

> 4) "I walk in the South"

Do you now.

> 5) "A wanderer escaped from night"

This sounds like a description of Beren, maybe (just after he escaped
from, er, Nan Dungortheb? The nasty spider place north of Doriath.)
If that's the case, then if it is from LotR this would have to be from
Aragorn's song of Beren and Luthien, sung to the hobbits.

> 6) "Far over the misty mountains cold"

Well, if you're going outside LotR, you've picked an easy one: this is
the Dwarves' song at the beginning of _The Hobbit_, referring to their
forthcoming journey to Erebor. But now I'm trying to remember if the
Conspirators' song in Crickhollow starts the same way...

> 7) "Though all to ruin fell the world"

I'm not remembering this, unfortunately.

> 8) "He chanted a song of wizardry"

I _love_ this verse! It's from the Lay of Leithian, about Finrod
resisting Sauron in defense of Beren and his other companions. It's
excerpted in /The Silmarillion/, of course, with no speaker given.

> 9) "In a cave in the hills he dwelt alone"

Harry's lament for Sirius, recalling his sad exile during "Goblet of
Fire".

> 10) "A lord of wisdom throned he sat"

Gah. This line feels tremendously familiar, but I'm still not placing
it. Wait, I know! It must be describing Celeborn!

Not a very good performance on this quiz, I'm afraid.

Steuard Jensen

Christopher Kreuzer

unread,
Sep 25, 2005, 6:20:52 AM9/25/05
to
Steuard Jensen <sbje...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
> I was too busy to respond in this thread when it first appeared (some
> would say I still am...), but Christopher mentioned the quiz(es) over
> here so I thought I'd give them a quick spin. :) Belba's original
> article has already expired on my server, so I've copied her quiz
> questions here from Google as well.

One other thing. I mentioned string theory in a response to a post from
Stan about Valar teleportation (the "Was Sauron's form fixed?" thread,
though it was previously named "The Voice of Sauron"). Am I talking
rubbish about the Valar being strings... :-)

[Well, of course I'm talking rubbish, but is the _analogy_ any good?]

> Quoth "Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> in article
> <l80We.108803$G8.3...@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>:
>> Belba Grubb From Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:
>>> --"Songs and Verses trivia": See (without looking it up) if you can
>>> place the speaker, chanter or singer (as the case may be) and
>>> setting for some of these first lines:
>
>>> "All that is gold does not glitter..." ("Easy!" said Bilbo.)
>
> We first see this verse in Gandalf's letter to Frodo, and I seem to
> recall that Aragorn then described himself with this phrase before
> realizing that it was in the letter. But I believe that the first
> full _recitation_ of the verse was by Bilbo to Boromir in Rivendell.

Congratulations. I think several people spotted that the phrase was used
twice (I only remembered one use of the phrase), but I think you are the
first to realise it was used _three_ times.

>>> "Sing hey! for the bath at close of the day..." (Chestnuts,
>>> chestnuts," he hissed.)
>
> At first I thought this was Pippin in the bath at Crickhollow, but no,
> that's a _different_ hobbit bath song.

Actually, your first idea was right.
Always best to go with the first guess! :-)
Too much thinking spoils the broth.

> Fond of creature comforts,
> those hobbits. So this must be sung by the hobbits on the _way_ to
> Crickhollow (I hope!), but I'm not entirely sure when. It might
> actually be what they were singing when they were interrupted by the
> Nazgul cry, on the way to Maggot's farm.

This was my first thought, that they sung it on the way to Crickhollow.
But in this case I should have thought a bit harder.

<snip correct answers>

>>> "Ere iron was found or tree was hewn..."
>
> Well that's early! I'm not 100% certain, but I think that this must
> be the beginning of Gimli's song about Durin. (Leave it to a dwarf to
> begin a poem with hewing trees...)

How about a second and third line? I guess you've already looked it up
by now, but the first three lines are:

"Ere iron was found or tree was hewn,
When young was mountain under moon;
Ere ring was made, or wrought was woe,
<last line>"

Sound more familiar now?
Last line rhymes with 'woe'.
Eight syllables.

<snip>

>>> And this absolutely stumps me:
>
>>> "Silver flow the streams for Celos to Erui..."
>
> This is a verse about Gondor, I know that. I think it's the one that
> Aragorn chants as he pauses to look at the White Mountains while
> chasing the Uruk-hai.
>
> But it might be by Gandalf at some point instead; I know there were at
> least two Gondor verses in the book. (Heck, it could even be
> Faramir.) [For the record, I was _thinking_ all this second paragraph
> while typing the answer above, but I didn't actually write it down
> until I got to #2 below.]

Again, I wonder if another line or two of context helps?

"[he] paused and sighed, and turning his eyes southward softly he sang:

Silver flow the streams from Celos to Erui
In the green fields of Lebennin!
Tall grows the grass there. In the wind from the Sea..."

>> A few more... :-)

<snip>

>> 2) Gondor! Gondor, between the Mountains and the Sea!
>
> Damn. _This_ looks more like the one that Aragorn chants when he sees
> Gondor from afar while chasing the Uruk-hai. But I don't think it
> would be fair to correct my earlier answer at this point, since that
> was responding to an earlier post.

Did you get nearer the right answer for the earlier one, when thinking
about it? Oh, and this one _is_ Aragorn, of course.

"'Gondor! Gondor!' cried Aragorn. 'Would that I looked on you again in
happier hour! Not yet does my road lie southward to your bright
streams." (The Riders of Rohan)

Given the reference to bright streams, I can understand the confusion
with the other quote about Celos and Erui.

>> 3) O slender as a willow wand! O clearer than clear waters!
>
> This is certainly _about_ Goldberry. My first instinct is actually
> that this verse is the one by _Frodo_, surprising himself with his own
> eloquence upon first seeing her. This verse is a bit too un-goofy for
> Bombadil himself, I think (it's a favorite of mine). But still, it
> could be his instead.

You _just_ avoided the Bombadil trap! :-)

Bombadil says something similar, which later inspires Frodo's line.
Thanks for pointing out it was the first time he had met her, I had
thought it was later than that.

<snip>

>> 8) ...long was the way that fate them bore...
>
> Aragorn's song of Luthien. This is the part where he truncates the
> entire core of the story, in one of the more drastic poetic
> abridgments in literature. :)

It is rather an abrupt ending isn't it. Thankfully Aragorn tells us a
bit more of the story in the following paragraphs.

<snip>

> The handy thing about waiting so long, of course, is that I can
> immediately check how well I did! :)

Well, you got all ten of the ones I gave, but bombed out on three of
Belba's six questions. I would say that is impressive (no, really, it
is), but I've just seen the mess you made of the other quiz... :-)

Christopher Kreuzer

unread,
Sep 25, 2005, 8:17:05 AM9/25/05
to
Steuard Jensen <sbje...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
> Quoth "Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> in article
> <wimWe.109411$G8.5...@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>:
>>> Belba Grubb From Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:
>>>> --"Songs and Verses trivia":
>> And yet more... :-)
>
>> From anywhere in a song or verse. Give the person(s) who sung it,
>> and to whom, and where, and explain what the singer is talking
>> about. Sneakily, I've sometimes gone outside LotR...
>
> Evil!

But not as far outside LotR as you went...

>> 1) "Or there maybe 'tis cloudless night"
>
> Ok, so these have gotten harder. I'm not coming up with anything for
> this one at all, and I probably shouldn't take the time to really
> think hard about it.

"Or there maybe 'tis cloudless night

and swaying beeches bear
the Elven-stars as jewels white
amid their branching hair."

Does that help?

>> 2) "And now all those lands lie under the wave"
>
> Is this honestly from a poem? I thought Treebeard said something like
> this _after_ reciting his poetic words about Beleriand ("In the
> willow-meads of Tarsonin I walked in the spring", or some such; I'm
> sure I've gotten the details and spellings there entirely wrong,
> mind). I _think_ that verse was to Merry and Pippin in Fangorn, and
> that he only alludes back to it when talking to Celeborn and Galadriel
> in Isengard. If it's not from that poem, I really have no idea.

You were right about it being from Treebeards "Tarsonin" poem. And there
is indeed an allusion in the meeting with Celeborn and Galadriel (see
reference below to a separate post I made), though you got the speaker
wrong... And you did mangle the spelling (it's spelt Tasarinan). I guess
to get a feel for the spellings you have to recite this poem many times,
letting the rich syllables roll around your mouth.

Treebeard did indeed murmur: "And now all those lands lie under the
wave." It is the 'back to the dim, cold world of the present' bit, after
wandering in song through the 'glory and beauty of the First Age'. Which
seems to be a common theme in Tolkien.

And I love the way this poem ends: "And the years lie thicker than the
leaves
In Tauremornalómė." I've added the accents because they really bring
that final word to life, giving it a sing-song rhythm that seems to
showcase the way the Ents really loved Quenya, and how it really suited
them.

And this poem is also overflowing with strange place-names. When you get
a map from 'The Silmarillion' and look them all up, you really begin to
see that Treebeard has been around and been all over the place. But he
is also shifting around with his use of the place names, repeating them
in different languages or slightly different constructs, I believe.

[rest of stuff cut and posted as a new post just about this poem]

>> 3) "Through shadows to the edge of night"
>
> Gah. All that's coming to mind is Billy Boyd's version! And I just
> looked up the original a few months ago, too... where was it?

LOL!

> Ah, yes! "Home is away, the world's ahead". That's the one that's
> sung by the three hobbits as they're walking through the woods near
> Maggot's farm. "And now to bed! And NOW to bed!", sang Pippin, but
> "Hush, what's that?", said Frodo, as they hear the Nazgul cry. (This
> song is much peppier in the book version than in the depressing but
> beautiful movie version. It's still hard to believe that Billy wrote
> and sang the tune himself in just a couple of days...)
>
> Am I right this time?

Completely and utterly! :-)

Well, technically they hear hooves and not a Nazgul cry, and I'm not
sure how close they were to Maggott's farm, but this is really
nit-picking now...

>> 4) "I walk in the South"
>
> Do you now.

Another line needed?

"I walk in the South,
Flapping big ears."

Maybe this set of lines from the same poem would have been a better
question:

"If ever you'd met me
You wouldn't forget me."

And it is a _simple_ rhyme, so that must mean...?

>> 5) "A wanderer escaped from night"
>
> This sounds like a description of Beren, maybe (just after he escaped
> from, er, Nan Dungortheb? The nasty spider place north of Doriath.)
> If that's the case, then if it is from LotR this would have to be from
> Aragorn's song of Beren and Luthien, sung to the hobbits.

"A wanderer escaped from night

to haven white he came at last..."

>> 6) "Far over the misty mountains cold"
>
> Well, if you're going outside LotR, you've picked an easy one: this is
> the Dwarves' song at the beginning of _The Hobbit_, referring to their
> forthcoming journey to Erebor. But now I'm trying to remember if the
> Conspirators' song in Crickhollow starts the same way...

It doesn't use the same words, but it does use the same tune:

"...was made on the model of the dwarf-song that started Bilbo on his
adventure long ago, and went to the same tune"

>> 7) "Though all to ruin fell the world"
>
> I'm not remembering this, unfortunately.

Even though you posted to a discussion about it a few days ago? And you
said there that you didn't remember it there either? :-)

"Though all to ruin fell the world

and were dissolved and backward hurled
unmade into the old abyss,

yet were its making good, for this..."

<snip>

>> 9) "In a cave in the hills he dwelt alone"
>
> Harry's lament for Sirius, recalling his sad exile during "Goblet of
> Fire".

Now here is the point where you went _wildy_ outside LotR. By going
outside LotR, I meant, of course, Tolkien's other writings? Why would I
randomly pick lines from another author? One I haven't even read either.
Hmph! :-)

A point for creative answering though.

>> 10) "A lord of wisdom throned he sat"
>
> Gah. This line feels tremendously familiar, but I'm still not placing
> it. Wait, I know! It must be describing Celeborn!

LOL! That was a joke right?

"For the Lord of the Galadhrim is accounted the wisest of the Elves of
Middle-earth, and a giver of gifts beyond the power of kings."
(Galadriel to the Fellowship, The Mirror of Galadriel)

And I thought it was canon in these newsgroups that Celeborn was a
complete and utter dunce? :-)

> Not a very good performance on this quiz, I'm afraid.

Only four. Not too bad. Thanks for playing! Did it help when extra lines
were quoted? Is just one line enough?

Steuard Jensen

unread,
Sep 25, 2005, 11:37:23 PM9/25/05
to
Quoth "Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> in article
<5zwZe.115360$G8.2...@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>:
> Steuard Jensen <sbje...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
> > Quoth "Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk>:

> >> From anywhere in a song or verse. Give the person(s) who sung it,
> >> and to whom, and where, and explain what the singer is talking
> >> about. Sneakily, I've sometimes gone outside LotR...

> But not as far outside LotR as you went...

:) Oh, I knew what you meant. But I was drawing a blank on that one,
and the (strained) parallel with Rowling came to mind.

> >> 1) "Or there maybe 'tis cloudless night"

> > Ok, so these have gotten harder.

> "Or there maybe 'tis cloudless night


> and swaying beeches bear
> the Elven-stars as jewels white
> amid their branching hair."
>
> Does that help?

I've already looked at others' answers, so I can't keep guessing. But
I'm not sure that I would have gotten this one even with this whole
half-verse. I would have recognized the first line easily, I think,
and _maybe_ the second verse would have been easier for me, but for
some reason this poem hasn't stuck in my head that well. I should try
to have a poetry-centric rereading of the books one of these days.

> >> 2) "And now all those lands lie under the wave"
> >
> > Is this honestly from a poem? I thought Treebeard said something like
> > this _after_ reciting his poetic words about Beleriand ("In the
> > willow-meads of Tarsonin I walked in the spring", or some such; I'm
> > sure I've gotten the details and spellings there entirely wrong,
> > mind). I _think_ that verse was to Merry and Pippin in Fangorn, and
> > that he only alludes back to it when talking to Celeborn and Galadriel
> > in Isengard. If it's not from that poem, I really have no idea.

> You were right about it being from Treebeards "Tarsonin" poem. And there
> is indeed an allusion in the meeting with Celeborn and Galadriel (see
> reference below to a separate post I made), though you got the speaker
> wrong... And you did mangle the spelling (it's spelt Tasarinan). I guess
> to get a feel for the spellings you have to recite this poem many times,
> letting the rich syllables roll around your mouth.

Probably so. Even now, I don't think I really focus on the poems every
time I read the book; I certainly didn't at first.

> >> 3) "Through shadows to the edge of night"

> > Ah, yes! "Home is away, the world's ahead". That's the one that's
> > sung by the three hobbits as they're walking through the woods near
> > Maggot's farm. "And now to bed! And NOW to bed!", sang Pippin, but
> > "Hush, what's that?", said Frodo, as they hear the Nazgul cry. (This
> > song is much peppier in the book version than in the depressing but
> > beautiful movie version. It's still hard to believe that Billy wrote
> > and sang the tune himself in just a couple of days...)
> >
> > Am I right this time?

> Completely and utterly! :-)

> Well, technically they hear hooves and not a Nazgul cry, and I'm not
> sure how close they were to Maggott's farm, but this is really
> nit-picking now...

Actually, that's not nit-picking at all: I had mistakenly placed this
song at the point in the book that's actually occupied by "Ho! Ho! Ho!
to the bottle I go!" There, they've just started a second, louder
round of "Ho! Ho! Ho!" when a Nazgul wails.

In fact, the "And now to bed!" should have been a tip-off: it couldn't
have even been full evening by the time that I was thinking of. But
the two scenes are surprisingly similar in structure.

At any rate, I shouldn't get credit for this one either. Blast. :)

> >> 4) "I walk in the South"
> >
> > Do you now.
>
> Another line needed?
>
> "I walk in the South,
> Flapping big ears."

That makes it tremendously easy, of course. Though now that I look at
it, your clue could certainly have been enough if I'd approached it
properly (so I think it was a good puzzle). For some reason, my brain
kept trying to cram this line into Faramir's "names of Gandalf" poem,
though I knew it didn't fit there.

> Maybe this set of lines from the same poem would have been a better
> question:
>
> "If ever you'd met me
> You wouldn't forget me."

Nah, that seems too easy to me. I like your original, despite having
gotten it wrong.

> >> 5) "A wanderer escaped from night"

> > This sounds like a description of Beren, maybe...

> "A wanderer escaped from night
> to haven white he came at last..."

That probably would have done it. "Haven" really narrows down the
list of possible subjects. It _didn't_ quite seem to fit Aragorn's
Beren & Luthien song.

> >> 6) "Far over the misty mountains cold"

> > Well, if you're going outside LotR, you've picked an easy one: this is
> > the Dwarves' song at the beginning of _The Hobbit_, referring to their
> > forthcoming journey to Erebor. But now I'm trying to remember if the
> > Conspirators' song in Crickhollow starts the same way...

> It doesn't use the same words, but it does use the same tune:

Ah, right. It doesn't _start_ the same way that the Dwarves' song
did, but it ends very similarly. That's what I was remembering.

> >> 7) "Though all to ruin fell the world"

> > I'm not remembering this, unfortunately.

> Even though you posted to a discussion about it a few days ago? And
> you said there that you didn't remember it there either? :-)

I posted to the discussion; I never said I'd actually looked it up! :)

> >> 9) "In a cave in the hills he dwelt alone"

My word, it _is_ from "Troll sat alone on his seat of stone"! I
considered that at first, but somehow I'd had it in my head that this
line felt like the _first_ line of some poem, and I knew that Sam's
rhyme started with "Troll sat alone". In retrospect, I have no idea
why this felt so much like a first line to me (and still does, in
fact).

> > Harry's lament for Sirius, recalling his sad exile during "Goblet of
> > Fire".

> Now here is the point where you went _wildy_ outside LotR. By going
> outside LotR, I meant, of course, Tolkien's other writings? Why
> would I randomly pick lines from another author? One I haven't even
> read either. Hmph! :-)

<