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COTW: Index I. Songs and Verses

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Belba Grubb From Stock

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Sep 12, 2005, 7:09:16 PM9/12/05
to
We have finished /The Lord of the Rings/ and the appendices, but JRRT
didn't leave it at that. Instead of the usual simple alphabetical index
that one might expect, he provided us with one categorized into "I.
Songs and Verses" (with subsections for titles and first lines), "II.
Persons, Beasts and Monsters, "III. Places" and "IV. Things."

Isn't that grand!

Suppose you had never heard of this work or its author, and someone told
you there was a tale out there that had this index. One look at the
category names would be enough to make you rush out and buy the books to
see what it was all about.

Instead, if my experience is typical, we have finished the story; sighed
and wiped away the tears and basked in the warm glow of that home fire
at Bag End; and perhaps after a while read the appendices and pondered
them to a greater or less degree; and then we have closed the last book
once more and put it back on the shelf beside its fellows, never looking
at the index because we already know about all that.

Of course, my experience may not be typical at all and there are people
just waiting for a chance to dive in and discuss the songs and verses
JRRT included in this work. Go to it!

Some of the verses here have already worked their way into our threads:
"Earendil was a mariner..." and the Anglo-Saxon poem of Earendel, as
well as the connection with an extra-LOTR work of Tolkien's, "Errantry";
the works of Donald Swann and others who have set these words to music;
"Malbeth the Seer's Words"; "Galadriel's Song of Eldamar" (as it's
called in the Index, though I always think of it as "Namarie") and the
window it opens onto Quenya; and so forth.

There are many other verses and songs still to be explored, though. To
start it off,

--I think it was mentioned in the biography that Frodo's song at the
Prancing Pony was written many years before JRRT started to work on /The
Lord of the Rings/. Is that right?

--What is the difference between versions I and II of "Out of doubt, out
of dark, to the day's rising..."?

--Have you put any of these verses and/or those of /The Hobbit/ to
music? If so, can you share it with us?

--"Songs and Verses trivia": See (without looking it up) if you can
place the speaker, chanter or singer (as the case may be) and setting
for some of these first lines:

"All that is gold does not glitter..." ("Easy!" said Bilbo.)

"Sing hey! for the bath at close of the day..." (Chestnuts,
chestnuts," he hissed.)

Right. Something a little tougher:

"An Elven-maid there was of old..."

"Ere iron was found or tree was hewn..."

"When spring unfolds the beechen leaf, and sap is in the bough...."

And this absolutely stumps me:

"Silver flow the streams for Celos to Erui..."

--The songs and verses of /The Hobbit/. It really needs a similar
index. Does anyone have a list of these? Whatever else one might say
about the Rankin-Bass animation, they did a decent job with their
versions of "Chip the glasses and crack the plates!.." and "Far over the
misty mountains cold..." and with the Goblin's Song, too. Wish they'd
traded in Glenn Yarborough for Donald Swann, though. And the riddles!
Allen & Unwin apparently told Tolkien that they thought "the riddles
were taken from common folk lore and were not invented by you." He
replied that with the exception of "Thirty White Horses" and "No-legs"
they were "all my own work" and went on to point out that "'Sun on the
Daisies' is not in verse...being but the etymology of the word 'daisy',
expressed in riddle-form." (Letter 110) One wonders what songs and
verses in /The Lord of the Rings/ might have linguistics and etymology
as its basis.

--Your favorite or most hated verses, thoughts on these songs and
verses, how they work with or detract from the story, and other thoughts
and comments. (I've really gone on quite a bit here, probably too much,
but that's just to get it started; the next categories will have a much
more brief introduction.)

R Crouse

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Sep 13, 2005, 1:01:12 AM9/13/05
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"Belba Grubb From Stock" <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote in message
news:11ic2l7...@corp.supernews.com...

> We have finished /The Lord of the Rings/ and the appendices, but JRRT
> didn't leave it at that. Instead of the usual simple alphabetical index
> that one might expect, he provided us with one categorized into "I. Songs
> and Verses" (with subsections for titles and first lines), "II. Persons,
> Beasts and Monsters, "III. Places" and "IV. Things."
>

-- Please excuse my ignorance. What does "COTW" stand for? I am a Tolkien
reader but can't place it.

Thanks,
-Robert.


Dan Leach

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Sep 13, 2005, 6:49:49 AM9/13/05
to

>>
>
> -- Please excuse my ignorance. What does "COTW" stand for? I am a
> Tolkien reader but can't place it.
>
> Thanks,
> -Robert.

This newsgroup has a 'chapter of the week'. It has done the hobbit and is
now nearing the end of lord of the rings. I think they are going to do the
silm next :)


Christopher Kreuzer

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Sep 13, 2005, 9:17:15 PM9/13/05
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Belba Grubb From Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:

<snip>

Nice introduction Belba, thanks!

> Of course, my experience may not be typical at all and there are
> people just waiting for a chance to dive in and discuss the songs and
> verses JRRT included in this work. Go to it!

No time tonight, but I do have quite a bit I want to say.

One thing I would like to ask now, as Belba did at the end of her
introduction, - which songs or verses do people like best? You can only
pick three, but you need to specify the order.

Mine are:

1) "Earendil was a mariner..."
2) "From dark Dunharrow in the dim morning..."
3) "Still round the corner there may wait..." (both versions)

[scans rest of post - ooh! look, a quiz!!]

<snip>

> --What is the difference between versions I and II of "Out of doubt,
> out of dark, to the day's rising..."?

Literally or figuratively? Literally the first version is at the Battle
of the Pelennor Fields, spoken by Eoomer. The second version is at
Theoden's funeral. But I guess you knew that. Figuratively the first is
Eomer responding to what has just happened. The second is an epitaph for
Theoden, describing how he brought hope to his people and gained great
glory.

<snip>

> --"Songs and Verses trivia": See (without looking it up) if you can
> place the speaker, chanter or singer (as the case may be) and setting
> for some of these first lines:
>
> "All that is gold does not glitter..." ("Easy!" said Bilbo.)

Is this a trick question? You say Bilbo said it was easy, so it can't be
Bilbo. Or is this a double bluff? Hmm.

Bilbo, at 'The Council of Elrond' to Boromir, defending Aragorn.

I don't think Bilbo ever said "Easy!" :-)

> "Sing hey! for the bath at close of the day..." (Chestnuts,
> chestnuts," he hissed.)

Either Merry or Pippin, or maybe Frodo. This is definitely when they are
approaching Crickhollow, though I can't remember if they have already
met up with Merry (who went ahead to prepare things at Crickhollow) or
not. Oh, maybe this is the actual bath song, in which case it is at
Crickhollow, and it is Frodo, possibly accompanied by the other hobbits
as well.

Oh, and Gollum said "chestnuts, chestnuts" but I can't remember where.
Maybe in Ithilien to Sam when he was cooking over the fire? Or was it to
Bilbo in /The Hobbit/ during the Riddle Game?

> Right. Something a little tougher:
>
> "An Elven-maid there was of old..."

Legolas by the stream of Nimrodel.
Singing to the rest of the Fellowship.

> "Ere iron was found or tree was hewn..."

"..it walked the forests long ago".

This is about the Ents. Sounds like Gandalf, probably to Legolas and/or
Theoden as he explains to Theoden what Ents are, and why Legolas
shouldn't go after the eyes in the Huorn forest. Since he's already said
something about Ents to Legolas, I'll say Gandalf said this to Theoden,
but it doesn't sound quite right. In fact, I'm going to say Gandalf said
it to Gimli when they meet in Fangorn.

And if it is from Gimli's song of Durin (sung in Moria), then I shall be
really annoyed, as I thought I knew that one... Annoyingly, I can't
remember the first line of that song:

Ere iron was found or tree was hewn,
No stain yet on the Moon was seen,
No words were laid on stream or stone
When Durin woke and walked alone.
He named the nameless hills and dells,
He drank from yet untasted wells
He stooped and looked in Mirrormere
And saw a crown of stars appear
As gems upon a silver thread
Above the shadow of his head

etc.

The half-lines scan.
But the rhyme is dodgy - hewn and seen??
And the tense is wrong - ere sounds wrong for the tone of the poem.
Could it really be Gimli's song of Durin?
Why can't I remember that first line!

Oh, I give up.
"String or nothing!"

No. Must give an answer!

I am convinced I would remember if it was Durin's Song. The lines scan
in both answers, so I am going to bite the bullet and go with my first
answer. Gandalf to Theoden somewhere on the Road to Isengard.

[Hmm? What was that? The programme ended half an hour ago? What do you
mean: "I've run out of time"??]

> "When spring unfolds the beechen leaf, and sap is in the
> bough...."

Treebeard's song of the Ent and the Entwife, sung to Merry and Pippin in
Fangorn. Probably at Wellinghall, though I'm not sure. And I think the
Ent voice starts off the song.

> And this absolutely stumps me:
>
> "Silver flow the streams for Celos to Erui..."

"..from Celos to Erui..." surely.

And that would be Legolas singing about the beauty of the lands he has
seen with Gimli. In the chapter 'The Last Debate' somewhere in or around
Minas Tirith as he and Gimli tell of what happened to them.

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard

Christopher Kreuzer

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Sep 13, 2005, 9:38:26 PM9/13/05
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Christopher Kreuzer <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> Belba Grubb From Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:

<snip>

> [scans rest of post - ooh! look, a quiz!!]

<snip>

>> --"Songs and Verses trivia": See (without looking it up) if you can


>> place the speaker, chanter or singer (as the case may be) and setting
>> for some of these first lines:

<snip>

> I don't think Bilbo ever said "Easy!" :-)

Oops! I should have known better... :-)
Lucky it wasn't part of the question!

>> "Sing hey! for the bath at close of the day..."

Hmm. Right location. Wrong person.

>> "Ere iron was found or tree was hewn..."

Lesson learnt: go with the first guess!
And don't miss out lines of the verse!

And it is a very nice verse as well. It is interesting that it scans the
same way as Gimli's song of Durin (the lines in each verse/song have the
same number of syllables - eight), and some of the content is very
similar.

First Gandalf's introduction to the song: "a power that walked the
earth, ere elf sang or hammer rang" (The Road to Isengard)

cf. "There hammer on the anvil smote [...]
And at the gates the trumpets rang." (Song of Durin)

And then this line from Gandalf's verse about the Ents: "When young was
mountain under moon" (The Road to Isengard)

cf. "The world was young, the mountains green,
No stain yet on the Moon was seen" (Song of Durin)

So that was (obviously!) why I was confusing them... :-)

Belba Grubb From Stock

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Sep 13, 2005, 10:10:56 PM9/13/05
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Christopher Kreuzer wrote:

<snip>

>>--"Songs and Verses trivia": See (without looking it up) if you can
>>place the speaker, chanter or singer (as the case may be) and setting
>>for some of these first lines:
>>
>> "All that is gold does not glitter..." ("Easy!" said Bilbo.)
>
>
> Is this a trick question? You say Bilbo said it was easy, so it can't be
> Bilbo. Or is this a double bluff? Hmm.
>
> Bilbo, at 'The Council of Elrond' to Boromir, defending Aragorn.
>
> I don't think Bilbo ever said "Easy!" :-)

He did, indeed -- in /The Hobbit/ just before Gollum mentioned
chestnuts. True, he hadn't written The Riddle of Strider yet (the lad
back in Rivendell was only ten years old then, I think).

No tricks -- that's us saying "Easy," and "Chestnuts" to the other one.
Everybody should get those two, and probably did. :-)

>
>
>> "Sing hey! for the bath at close of the day..." (Chestnuts,
>> chestnuts," he hissed.)
>
>
> Either Merry or Pippin, or maybe Frodo. This is definitely when they are
> approaching Crickhollow, though I can't remember if they have already
> met up with Merry (who went ahead to prepare things at Crickhollow) or
> not. Oh, maybe this is the actual bath song, in which case it is at
> Crickhollow, and it is Frodo, possibly accompanied by the other hobbits
> as well.

Pippin, I think it was, and at the end his bath water splashed on high.

>
> Oh, and Gollum said "chestnuts, chestnuts" but I can't remember where.
> Maybe in Ithilien to Sam when he was cooking over the fire? Or was it to
> Bilbo in /The Hobbit/ during the Riddle Game?

Right in the latter instance, as above.

Since we've done /The Hobbit/ too, figured it would be reasonable to
bring the riddles and other songs and verses from that work into it here.

>
>
>>Right. Something a little tougher:
>>
>> "An Elven-maid there was of old..."
>
>
> Legolas by the stream of Nimrodel.
> Singing to the rest of the Fellowship.

Yep.

>
>> "When spring unfolds the beechen leaf, and sap is in the
>>bough...."
>
>
> Treebeard's song of the Ent and the Entwife, sung to Merry and Pippin in
> Fangorn. Probably at Wellinghall, though I'm not sure. And I think the
> Ent voice starts off the song.

That I don't remember, although I once set this song to music (a round,
though that's not really suitable to the topic, unless you want the Ent
and the Entwife nattering on at each other, neither hearing what the
other is singing; not quite what JRRT had in mind -- the both can hear
each other, but they each have their own will in the matter, which puts
them at odds). Treebeard was rather proudly singing a song the Elves
had made about the Ents; it had once been sung throughout the land.

>
>
>>And this absolutely stumps me:
>>
>> "Silver flow the streams for Celos to Erui..."
>
>
> "..from Celos to Erui..." surely.
>
> And that would be Legolas singing about the beauty of the lands he has
> seen with Gimli. In the chapter 'The Last Debate' somewhere in or around
> Minas Tirith as he and Gimli tell of what happened to them.

Ding! Bell rings -- yes, and then he said that is how the lands are
described in song but he couldn't say, even though he had crossed them,
because it was dark.

Barb

Belba Grubb From Stock

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Sep 13, 2005, 10:12:23 PM9/13/05
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Aw, you looked. But that's okay -- I hadn't noticed the similarity in
scanning.

Barb

Dirk Thierbach

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Sep 14, 2005, 3:09:18 AM9/14/05
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Belba Grubb From Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:
> Some of the verses here have already worked their way into our threads:
> "Earendil was a mariner..."

Christopher (and you at the end) asked about favorites, and this is
definitely mine. Completely blew me away when I first read it in the
original version. And it's impossible to translate all the rhymes; the
German version doesn't come even close.

> --I think it was mentioned in the biography that Frodo's song at the
> Prancing Pony was written many years before JRRT started to work on /The
> Lord of the Rings/. Is that right?

I think I remember that, too. And many of the verses seem to have been
written independently of LotR first. Another example is Earendil.

> --Have you put any of these verses and/or those of /The Hobbit/ to
> music? If so, can you share it with us?

When I was a child, I actually invented simple melodies for the "Far
over the misty mountains" verse of the Hobbit, and for the German
translation of song about Beren and Luthien (I didn't have the
original version of the LotR at that time).

If you insist, I can try to remember them and write them down :-)

I also like some of the songs collected by Lindatirion,
http://poetspol.web4u.cz/down.htm. They were probably created in a
similar way, but do have guitar accompaniment, and in some
cases a second voice. So vastly more sophisticated then mine :-)

Nice ones are, for example, Nimrodel, the Song of Galadriel,
and Galadriels Lament.

> --The songs and verses of /The Hobbit/. It really needs a similar
> index. Does anyone have a list of these? Whatever else one might say
> about the Rankin-Bass animation, they did a decent job with their
> versions of "Chip the glasses and crack the plates!.." and "Far over the
> misty mountains cold..." and with the Goblin's Song, too.

I didn't see the Rankin-Bass animation, but one thing I have overlooked
for a long time is that the Goblin's Song ("Clap! Snap!") actually
sounds very impressing when read aloud. The words are just right so
one can do interesting things with the voice.

> Wish they'd traded in Glenn Yarborough for Donald Swann, though.

I am afraid the music by Donald Swann is not really my style.

> One wonders what songs and verses in /The Lord of the Rings/ might
> have linguistics and etymology as its basis.

Or what other things have a philological base. There seem to be so
many of them. I guess it would be good to have an index for them, too :-)

- Dirk

Troels Forchhammer

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Sep 14, 2005, 9:35:14 AM9/14/05
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In message <news:vSKVe.108325$G8.8...@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>
"Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> enriched us with:

> Belba Grubb From Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> Nice introduction Belba, thanks!
>
>> Of course, my experience may not be typical at all and there are
>> people just waiting for a chance to dive in and discuss the songs
>> and verses JRRT included in this work. Go to it!
>
> No time tonight, but I do have quite a bit I want to say.
>
> One thing I would like to ask now, as Belba did at the end of her
> introduction, - which songs or verses do people like best? You can
> only pick three, but you need to specify the order.
>
> Mine are:
>
> 1) "Earendil was a mariner..."
> 2) "From dark Dunharrow in the dim morning..."
> 3) "Still round the corner there may wait..." (both versions)

I cannot with any honesty answer that question. My perception of the
songs and verses is strongly tied to the beautiful renditions made by
The Tolkien Ensemble[*], and as is the nature of music, my
preferences differ with differing moods. I think the ensemble, in
general, has hit the mood of the lyrics very well with their music.
So much so that my 14-years-old has the "Ho Tom Bombadil" on his
mobile phone ;-)

[*] <http://www.tolkiensociety.org/tstrading/sales_03.html#music>

<snip quiz>

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

Lo! we have gathered, and we have spent, and now the time
of payment draws near.
- Aragorn, /The Lord of the Rings/ (J.R.R. Tolkien)

Christopher Kreuzer

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Sep 14, 2005, 2:58:38 PM9/14/05
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Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:

<snip>

> So much so that my 14-years-old has the "Ho Tom Bombadil" on his
> mobile phone ;-)

LOL! As a ring-tone? Now that _would_ be annoying!!


JimboCat

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Sep 14, 2005, 4:23:25 PM9/14/05
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Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
[snippage]

> One thing I would like to ask now, as Belba did at the end of her
> introduction, - which songs or verses do people like best? You can only
> pick three, but you need to specify the order.
>
> Mine are:
>
> 1) "Earendil was a mariner..."
> 2) "From dark Dunharrow in the dim morning..."
> 3) "Still round the corner there may wait..." (both versions)

Mine are:

1) "Earendil was a mariner..."

2) That Elvish verse. You know. IDHTBIFOM but I think it was sung by
one of Gildor's party in the Shire before they invited the hobbits to
join them. I remember writing my essay for the English Regents exam (a
NY State exam for HS students) on this poem thirty years ago. I
couldn't remember all the elvish, so I made some of it up...
3) Bilbo's song that Frodo sang on the table in the Prancing Pony. "few
of the words are as a rule remembered..."
99999) Tom Bombadillo!

<snip>

>> --"Songs and Verses trivia": See (without looking it up) if you can
>> place the speaker, chanter or singer (as the case may be) and setting
>> for some of these first lines:
>>
>> "All that is gold does not glitter..." ("Easy!" said Bilbo.)
>
>Is this a trick question? You say Bilbo said it was easy, so it can't be
>Bilbo. Or is this a double bluff? Hmm.
>
>Bilbo, at 'The Council of Elrond' to Boromir, defending Aragorn.

That's the first time it's sung or chanted. But we've seen the first
couple lines of the verse before: it was in Gandalf's letter to Frodo
that didn't get delivered until the hobbits reached Bree.

Jim Deutch (JimboCat)
--
"The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed."
-- Louis Epstein
"Barad-dûr MUST rise again, at least as tall as
before...or Frodo has triumphed."
-- Flame of the West
"New Orleans MUST be flooded again, at least as deep
as before...or Katrina has triumphed."
-- JimboCat

Christopher Kreuzer

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Sep 14, 2005, 4:41:32 PM9/14/05
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JimboCat <10313...@compuserve.com> wrote:
> Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
> [snippage]
>> One thing I would like to ask now, as Belba did at the end of her
>> introduction, - which songs or verses do people like best? You can
>> only pick three, but you need to specify the order.
>>
>> Mine are:
>>
>> 1) "Earendil was a mariner..."
>> 2) "From dark Dunharrow in the dim morning..."
>> 3) "Still round the corner there may wait..." (both versions)
>
> Mine are:
>
> 1) "Earendil was a mariner..."

Looks like lots of people like this!

> 2) That Elvish verse. You know. IDHTBIFOM but I think it was sung by
> one of Gildor's party in the Shire before they invited the hobbits to
> join them.

A Elbereth Gilthoniel?

Actually, looked it up, and it starts:

"Snow-white! Snow-white! Oh Lady clear!"

And though sung in Elvish, the hobbits find that the "sound blending
with the melody seemed to shape itself in their thought into words..."

> I remember writing my essay for the English Regents exam (a
> NY State exam for HS students) on this poem thirty years ago. I
> couldn't remember all the elvish, so I made some of it up...

Sounds like an interesting exam!

In Elvish? That might be a later one:

"A Elbereth Gilthoniel,
silivren penna miriel...

They are all basically hymns to Elbereth. Various similar and, I think
slightly different, versions are sung by Gildor's company, and in the
Hall of Fire at Rivendell, and by the Elves going to the Grey Havens at
the end of the book. I'm not entirely sure what the exact differences
are, and that might be interesting if anyone knows.

> 3) Bilbo's song that Frodo sang on the table in the Prancing Pony.
> "few of the words are as a rule remembered..."

LOL! "There is an inn, a merry old inn..." was a linguistic joke, wasn't
it? I'm sure somebody mentioned it recently. It was Tolkien providing an
example of a song, from long ago, of which only a fragment remains today
in our lore: one of the last verses, about the cow jumping over the
moon, and the dog and the cutlery.

> 99999) Tom Bombadillo!

Does anyone like these? I don't particularly dislike them, but they do
seem to stir up people's ire!

>>> --"Songs and Verses trivia": See (without looking it up) if you can
>>> place the speaker, chanter or singer (as the case may be) and
>>> setting for some of these first lines:
>>>
>>> "All that is gold does not glitter..." ("Easy!" said Bilbo.)
>>
>> Is this a trick question? You say Bilbo said it was easy, so it
>> can't be Bilbo. Or is this a double bluff? Hmm.
>>
>> Bilbo, at 'The Council of Elrond' to Boromir, defending Aragorn.
>
> That's the first time it's sung or chanted. But we've seen the first
> couple lines of the verse before: it was in Gandalf's letter to Frodo
> that didn't get delivered until the hobbits reached Bree.

Yes. Maybe it _was_ a trick question!? :-)

Christopher Kreuzer

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Sep 14, 2005, 4:56:49 PM9/14/05
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Belba Grubb From Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:

<snip>

> --"Songs and Verses trivia": See (without looking it up) if you can


> place the speaker, chanter or singer (as the case may be) and setting
> for some of these first lines:

A few more... :-)

1) Cold be hand and heart and bone
2) Gondor! Gondor, between the Mountains and the Sea!
3) O slender as a willow wand! O clearer than clear waters!
4) Over the land there lies a long shadow
5) To the Sea, to the Sea! The white gulls are crying

Those were first lines. The next five are taken from anywhere in any of
the songs...

6) ...foam dyed with blood flamed at sunset...
7) ...his cloven shield, his broken sword, they to the water brought...
8) ...long was the way that fate them bore...
9) ...but on him mighty doom was laid...
10) ...through moor and waste we ride in haste...

Belba Grubb From Stock

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Sep 14, 2005, 5:51:44 PM9/14/05
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Dirk Thierbach wrote:
> Belba Grubb From Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:
>
>>Some of the verses here have already worked their way into our threads:
>>"Earendil was a mariner..."
>
>
> Christopher (and you at the end) asked about favorites, and this is
> definitely mine. Completely blew me away when I first read it in the
> original version. And it's impossible to translate all the rhymes; the
> German version doesn't come even close.

I have to admit skipping the poems the first few times through. This
was the first one I happened to read and had the same reaction -- it is
just so vivid and "tight" and at the end there "The Flammifer of
Westernesse." It's perfect. I read every single one of them after that
(and went back and read the ones that had come before that point in the
story).

To answer Christopher's question and select two other favorites...hmmm,
that's hard. I "heard" music for The Lament of the Rohirrim as well as
the Ent and the Ent-Wife; I will try to write them down, too (see
below). I think, though, my number one favorite in terms of impact as
well as enhancement of the text is the Song of the Mounds of Mundberg
that closes the chapter on the battle on the Pelennor. The choice of
words throughout, for example,

Grey now as tears, gleaming silver,
red then it rolled, roaring water

and the rhythm of it move me deeply.

Hmmm -- it would appear I have a bit of the Ent as well as the Rohirrim
in me. :-D

>>--Have you put any of these verses and/or those of /The Hobbit/ to
>>music? If so, can you share it with us?
>
>
> When I was a child, I actually invented simple melodies for the "Far
> over the misty mountains" verse of the Hobbit, and for the German
> translation of song about Beren and Luthien (I didn't have the
> original version of the LotR at that time).
>
> If you insist, I can try to remember them and write them down :-)

I insist! Please!

>
> I also like some of the songs collected by Lindatirion,
> http://poetspol.web4u.cz/down.htm. They were probably created in a
> similar way, but do have guitar accompaniment, and in some
> cases a second voice. So vastly more sophisticated then mine :-)
>
> Nice ones are, for example, Nimrodel, the Song of Galadriel,
> and Galadriels Lament.

Am now back to work so I will have to listen to them later, but thanks
for the link.

>
>
>>--The songs and verses of /The Hobbit/. It really needs a similar
>>index. Does anyone have a list of these? Whatever else one might say
>>about the Rankin-Bass animation, they did a decent job with their
>>versions of "Chip the glasses and crack the plates!.." and "Far over the
>>misty mountains cold..." and with the Goblin's Song, too.
>
>
> I didn't see the Rankin-Bass animation, but one thing I have overlooked
> for a long time is that the Goblin's Song ("Clap! Snap!") actually
> sounds very impressing when read aloud. The words are just right so
> one can do interesting things with the voice.

That's true. Very fun to read out loud.

>
>
>>Wish they'd traded in Glenn Yarborough for Donald Swann, though.
>
>
> I am afraid the music by Donald Swann is not really my style.

There are parts of it I can't warm up to, but I like the piano as
accompaniment and some of the lyrical music, notably "I Sit Beside The
Fire And Think." He "heard" some interesting music for Treebeard's
Song, but I can't imagine an Ent singing it -- too many high and low
notes mixed. I can "hear" something more sonorous and wave-like
swelling and then receding, though I can't actually put it to music.

I think Swann tackled "Errantry," too, didn't he? There was something
"buzzy" in the music book when I once looked through it and tried to
play the songs, but that one (it was at the end, I think) I never got
through.

>
>
>>One wonders what songs and verses in /The Lord of the Rings/ might
>>have linguistics and etymology as its basis.
>
>
> Or what other things have a philological base. There seem to be so
> many of them. I guess it would be good to have an index for them, too :-)

Well, one could say the whole book is that, of course. I hadn't
realized that about "Sun on Daisies" before, though.

Right -- who will do that index? ;-)

Barb

Troels Forchhammer

unread,
Sep 14, 2005, 6:31:25 PM9/14/05
to
In message <news:yp_Ve.108699$G8.3...@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>
"Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> enriched us with:
>
> Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> So much so that my 14-years-old has the "Ho Tom Bombadil" on his
>> mobile phone ;-)
>
> LOL! As a ring-tone? Now that _would_ be annoying!!

Hey, what a great idea! ;-)

Where I am working most people use rather personalized ring-tones, and
the guy who sits in front of me probably has the most irritating ring-
tone in the company (the Danish division, anyway), and I need some sort
of 'get even' mechanism ;-)

Or perhaps Gollum ... ('We only wish/to catch a fish,/so juicy-sweet!')

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

Taking fun
as simply fun
and earnestness
in earnest
shows how thouroughly
thou none
of the two
discernest.
- Piet Hein, /The Eternal Twins/

Message has been deleted

Dirk Thierbach

unread,
Sep 15, 2005, 3:24:03 AM9/15/05
to
Belba Grubb From Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:
> Dirk Thierbach wrote:

> I have to admit skipping the poems the first few times through.

The poems of the Hobbit are very badly translated, and as a child I
hated all of them :-) In the english original, I started to get
interested. The translation of the poems of LotR are pretty good,
but I think it took also some time until I was interested in them.

> This was the first one I happened to read and had the same reaction
> -- it is just so vivid and "tight" and at the end there "The
> Flammifer of Westernesse."

Yes, the "internal rhyme" (if this is the right expression) together with
the alliteration is just incredible. I especially like the part

[...] to Night of Naught,
and passed, and never sight he saw
of shining shore nor light he sought.

It's a bit like a "Schuettelreim" (shaken rhyme?), where you just switch
consonants or syllables between two words to make up the second line.
(Does that exists in English at all? I cannot remember having seen
any examples in English.)

>>>--Have you put any of these verses and/or those of /The Hobbit/ to
>>>music? If so, can you share it with us?

>> If you insist, I can try to remember them and write them down :-)

> I insist! Please!

If I have some time, I'll give it a try. Is lilypond format ok? It's
free, cross-platform, and the input file is plain text (so I can just
post it here) and readable by humans. Also, the postscript output
looks quite good. See http://www.lilypond.org/web/.

- Dirk

Dirk Thierbach

unread,
Sep 15, 2005, 3:29:15 AM9/15/05
to
Andrew F. Donnell <donn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I wonder if any of you folk have the "J.R.R. Tolkien Audio Collection?"

I don't, but from your description it looks like a nice Christmas
present.

> That's my two cents, I suppose...I don't know if this sort of thing has
> come up in prior COTW threads, since I haven't followed any of them

Not as far as I can remember.

> (who is this guy, eh?). Don't get me wrong, I think the whole Tolkien
> parashah thing is a wonderful idea, much better than all the bickering
> and name-calling at least.

A few entries in the killfile help with that; it's mostly always the same
people who do the name calling. And if other people wouldn't respond
to those people, then it would be even better :-)

As for bickering, you can have that in the CotW threads too, mostly
about some rather subtle details of some obscure aspect of Tolkiens
work :-) But at least that stays more polite, for most of the time.

- Dirk

Troels Forchhammer

unread,
Sep 15, 2005, 6:31:44 AM9/15/05
to
In message <news:l80We.108803$G8.3...@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>

"Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> enriched us with:
>
> A few more... :-)
>
> 1) Cold be hand and heart and bone

That's Gollum during the passage of the Marshes -- Baggins guessed it
long ago ;-)

> 2) Gondor! Gondor, between the Mountains and the Sea!

... West wind blew there, ... yes ;-)

But whom ... and when ... ?

Hmm ...

The problem is that it could be almost anybody -- Aragorn, Boromir,
Faramir, Gandalf (to name just he most likely), and for each of them
it could fit in several occasions.

Pass :-(

> 3) O slender as a willow wand! O clearer than clear waters!

The subject is, of course, the River-Woman's Daughter, which places
it squarely in the House of Tom Bombadil, but Frodo or Tom? I'm
inclined to suggest Frodo, 'now we know what the songs were about'
(paraphrasing).

> 4) Over the land there lies a long shadow

Original speaker, or this time around ;-)

Originally the Seer who was never known as Macbeth (Malbeth?),
despite the irritating habit of my memory ;-)

In the book his words are recited by Aragorn -- I think it was at
Helm's Deep, but it could be when the Rangers catch up with them or
when he speaks to Éowyn in Harrowdale.

> 5) To the Sea, to the Sea! The white gulls are crying

Legolas, Minas Tirith

> Those were first lines. The next five are taken from anywhere in
> any of the songs...
>
> 6) ...foam dyed with blood flamed at sunset...

The song of Nimrodel, IIRC (making it Legolas in Lothlórien)

> 7) ...his cloven shield, his broken sword, they to the water
> brought...

That has to be the elegy for Boromir and the North Wind, but who sang
that -- I do think it was Aragorn.

> 8) ...long was the way that fate them bore...

Lay of Beren and Lúthien
(Aragorn in the dell at Weathertop)

> 9) ...but on him mighty doom was laid...

Durin? 'At Mirrormere he stood' (Gimli, of course).

> 10) ...through moor and waste we ride in haste...

The words themselves draw a complete blank for me. Had it been
alliterative, I would have guessed that Théoden spoke some staves
before setting out on the Ride of the Rohirrim, but the style doesn't
seem to fit, and where is that 'waste' they ride through anyway?

No, pass.


I can clearly feel that I haven't been active here for a few months
-- this has been more difficult than I had imagined ;-)

(I am, of course, off to check my results <G>)

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

++?????++ Out of Cheese Error. Redo From Start.
- /Interesting Times/ (Terry Pratchett)

Troels Forchhammer

unread,
Sep 15, 2005, 8:19:22 AM9/15/05
to
In message <news:Xns96D280FF...@131.228.6.98> Troels
Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> enriched us with:
>
> In message <news:l80We.108803$G8.3...@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>
> "Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> enriched us
> with:
>>
>> 1) Cold be hand and heart and bone
>
> That's Gollum during the passage of the Marshes -- Baggins guessed
> it long ago ;-)

Wrong. I was thinking of

The cold hard lands,
they bites our hands,

The question is very good -- much earlier, and one that I had
completely forgotten about ;-)


>> 2) Gondor! Gondor, between the Mountains and the Sea!
>
> ... West wind blew there, ... yes ;-)
>
> But whom ... and when ... ?
>
> Hmm ...
>
> The problem is that it could be almost anybody -- Aragorn,
> Boromir, Faramir, Gandalf (to name just he most likely), and for
> each of them it could fit in several occasions.
>
> Pass :-(

Well, it was one of my four most likely (and even one of the
situations I had in mind for him), but I shall refrain from demanding
an eighth of a point unless it comes to a tie for the last place ;-)

>> 3) O slender as a willow wand! O clearer than clear waters!
>
> The subject is, of course, the River-Woman's Daughter, which
> places it squarely in the House of Tom Bombadil, but Frodo or Tom?
> I'm inclined to suggest Frodo, 'now we know what the songs were
> about' (paraphrasing).

Place was right, wrong singer.

>> 4) Over the land there lies a long shadow
>
> Original speaker, or this time around ;-)
>
> Originally the Seer who was never known as Macbeth (Malbeth?),
> despite the irritating habit of my memory ;-)
>
> In the book his words are recited by Aragorn -- I think it was at
> Helm's Deep, but it could be when the Rangers catch up with them
> or when he speaks to Éowyn in Harrowdale.

Dead right there ;-)

>> 5) To the Sea, to the Sea! The white gulls are crying
>
> Legolas, Minas Tirith

Too easy anyway ;-)

>> Those were first lines. The next five are taken from anywhere in
>> any of the songs...
>>
>> 6) ...foam dyed with blood flamed at sunset...
>
> The song of Nimrodel, IIRC (making it Legolas in Lothlórien)

Wrong!

The 'song of the Mounds of Mundburg' -- oh, well.

>> 7) ...his cloven shield, his broken sword, they to the water
>> brought...
>
> That has to be the elegy for Boromir and the North Wind, but who
> sang that -- I do think it was Aragorn.

Well, that's three I got right (and with one half-right, my partial
result here is 50%, good thing I said I wasn't feeling up to standard
<G>)

>> 8) ...long was the way that fate them bore...
>
> Lay of Beren and Lúthien
> (Aragorn in the dell at Weathertop)

Yup (wasn't all that difficult, though).



>> 9) ...but on him mighty doom was laid...
>
> Durin? 'At Mirrormere he stood' (Gimli, of course).

I'll just shup up, shall I :-(

>> 10) ...through moor and waste we ride in haste...
>
> The words themselves draw a complete blank for me.

Funny thing is -- right after posting, I started my Tolkien Ensemble
playlist, and the first song to come up ... ;-)

So, four and a half right -- perhaps I should claim that eigth point
anyway ;-)

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

Taking fun

Message has been deleted

Derek Broughton

unread,
Sep 15, 2005, 10:17:09 AM9/15/05
to
Troels Forchhammer wrote:

> In message <news:Xns96D280FF...@131.228.6.98> Troels
> Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> enriched us with:
>>
>> In message <news:l80We.108803$G8.3...@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>
>> "Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> enriched us
>> with:
>>>
>>> 1) Cold be hand and heart and bone
>>
>> That's Gollum during the passage of the Marshes -- Baggins guessed
>> it long ago ;-)
>
> Wrong. I was thinking of
>
> The cold hard lands,
> they bites our hands,
>
> The question is very good -- much earlier, and one that I had
> completely forgotten about ;-)

From the barrow, I believe - I think it was the wight, but it could be from
Bombadil's exorcism (I don't think so, though).

> Well, it was one of my four most likely (and even one of the
> situations I had in mind for him), but I shall refrain from demanding
> an eighth of a point unless it comes to a tie for the last place ;-)
>
>>> 3) O slender as a willow wand! O clearer than clear waters!
>>
>> The subject is, of course, the River-Woman's Daughter, which
>> places it squarely in the House of Tom Bombadil, but Frodo or Tom?
>> I'm inclined to suggest Frodo, 'now we know what the songs were
>> about' (paraphrasing).
>
> Place was right, wrong singer.

Bombadil, then! :-)
--
derek

Message has been deleted

Christopher Kreuzer

unread,
Sep 15, 2005, 4:53:22 PM9/15/05
to
Andrew F. Donnell <donn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It's just when things catch on fire, or when ancient demons of the
> netherworld, or of alt.flame crawl out of the shadow, wreathed in
> flames. Then it can be a problem.

No. It is only a problem if they have wings.

Christopher Kreuzer

unread,
Sep 15, 2005, 5:00:49 PM9/15/05
to
Derek Broughton <ne...@pointerstop.ca> wrote:

>>>> 1) Cold be hand and heart and bone

[...]

> From the barrow, I believe - I think it was the wight, but it could
> be from Bombadil's exorcism (I don't think so, though).

Barrow wight.

Bombadil's bit contains:

"Warm now be heart and limb!"

In the second bit he sings over the hobbits.

>>>> 3) O slender as a willow wand! O clearer than clear waters!

Troels and then Troels wrote:
>>> The subject is, of course, the River-Woman's Daughter, which
>>> places it squarely in the House of Tom Bombadil, but Frodo or Tom?
>>> I'm inclined to suggest Frodo, 'now we know what the songs were
>>> about' (paraphrasing).
>>
>> Place was right, wrong singer.
>
> Bombadil, then! :-)

No. It _is_ Frodo!

Bombadil sings something similar, but not identical, in the first song
the hobbits hear. Frodo is later inspired (and surprises himself in the
process) to seranade Goldberry, and the first line of Frodo's song is
the one give above in the quiz.

I wonder if I can mark someone down for marking their own answers
incorrectly? I guess it didn't do any harm, so maybe not... :-)

Christopher Kreuzer

unread,
Sep 15, 2005, 5:45:31 PM9/15/05
to
Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:

>> 5) To the Sea, to the Sea! The white gulls are crying
>
> Legolas, Minas Tirith

Ithilien, actually. :-)

>> 8) ...long was the way that fate them bore...
>
> Lay of Beren and Lúthien
> (Aragorn in the dell at Weathertop)

Ooh! Good one! :-)

>> 10) ...through moor and waste we ride in haste...
>
> The words themselves draw a complete blank for me.

I thought this one would be difficult!

> I can clearly feel that I haven't been active here for a few months
> -- this has been more difficult than I had imagined ;-)

Oh, I think it would have been difficult anyway. I passed silently over
the ones you got completely wrong. Personally, I was surprised, when
scanning the index of first lines of the songs (at the back of LotR),
just how many of them were obscure and difficult to place. Of course,
for the later bit where I extracted lines from _within_ the songs, it
helped to have a book that claims to collect all the songs and poems
from LotR, with Alan Lee illustrations as well!

Christopher Kreuzer

unread,
Sep 15, 2005, 5:49:08 PM9/15/05
to
Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
> Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> enriched us with:
>> "Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> enriched us
>> with:
>>>
>>> 1) Cold be hand and heart and bone
>>
>> That's Gollum during the passage of the Marshes -- Baggins guessed
>> it long ago ;-)
>
> Wrong. I was thinking of
>
> The cold hard lands,
> they bites our hands,

LOL! My trap has been sprung! I noticed that similarity... :-)

> The question is very good -- much earlier, and one that I had
> completely forgotten about ;-)

> I shall refrain from demanding


> an eighth of a point unless it comes to a tie for the last place ;-)

You are currently in first place!
Even without the eighth of a point.

>>> 4) Over the land there lies a long shadow
>>
>> Original speaker, or this time around ;-)

Hmm. I forgot to check for this kind of thing...

>>> 10) ...through moor and waste we ride in haste...
>>
>> The words themselves draw a complete blank for me.
>
> Funny thing is -- right after posting, I started my Tolkien Ensemble
> playlist, and the first song to come up ... ;-)

Amazing!

Christopher Kreuzer

unread,
Sep 15, 2005, 6:09:32 PM9/15/05
to
> Belba Grubb From Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:
>
>> --"Songs and Verses trivia": See (without looking it up) if you can
>> place the speaker, chanter or singer (as the case may be) and setting
>> for some of these first lines:

And yet more... :-)

From anywhere in a song or verse. Give the person(s) who sung it, and to
whom, and where, and explain what the singer is talking about. Sneakily,
I've sometimes gone outside LotR...

1) "Or there maybe 'tis cloudless night"
2) "And now all those lands lie under the wave"
3) "Through shadows to the edge of night"
4) "I walk in the South"
5) "A wanderer escaped from night"
6) "Far over the misty mountains cold"
7) "Though all to ruin fell the world"
8) "He chanted a song of wizardry"
9) "In a cave in the hills he dwelt alone"
10) "A lord of wisdom throned he sat"

Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted

Emma Pease

unread,
Sep 15, 2005, 9:26:24 PM9/15/05
to
In article <wimWe.109411$G8.5...@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>, Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
>> Belba Grubb From Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:
>>
>>> --"Songs and Verses trivia": See (without looking it up) if you can
>>> place the speaker, chanter or singer (as the case may be) and setting
>>> for some of these first lines:
>
> And yet more... :-)
>
> From anywhere in a song or verse. Give the person(s) who sung it, and to
> whom, and where, and explain what the singer is talking about. Sneakily,
> I've sometimes gone outside LotR...
>
> 1) "Or there maybe 'tis cloudless night"
don't know

> 2) "And now all those lands lie under the wave"

Fangorn to Pippin and Merry and he is talking about Beleriand.

> 3) "Through shadows to the edge of night"

About Earendil not sure whom or where.

> 4) "I walk in the South"

Sam's song about the oliphant while in Ithilien.

> 5) "A wanderer escaped from night"

not sure

> 6) "Far over the misty mountains cold"

The dwarves in the Hobbit at Bilbo's tea party.

> 7) "Though all to ruin fell the world"

Beren about Luthien when he despairs of his quest while in the dungeons of
Sauron.

> 8) "He chanted a song of wizardry"

Finrod while trying to defend himself and his people including Beren
against Sauron

> 9) "In a cave in the hills he dwelt alone"

Sam's song about a troll after the party finds the stone trolls on the
way to Rivendell.

> 10) "A lord of wisdom throned he sat"

not sure. It is likely about either Elrond or Thingol.


--
\----
|\* | Emma Pease Net Spinster
|_\/ Die Luft der Freiheit weht

Troels Forchhammer

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Sep 16, 2005, 4:19:39 AM9/16/05
to
In message <news:5ilWe.109367$G8.8...@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>

"Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> enriched us with:
>

>

> Troels and then Troels wrote:
>>>> The subject is, of course, the River-Woman's Daughter, which
>>>> places it squarely in the House of Tom Bombadil, but Frodo or
>>>> Tom? I'm inclined to suggest Frodo, 'now we know what the songs
>>>> were about' (paraphrasing).
>>>
>>> Place was right, wrong singer.

[...]

> No. It _is_ Frodo!

Doh!

I never looked further one I found Bombadil singing the first part fo
the line, but he sand 'the water' where Frodo sang 'clear water'.

> Bombadil sings something similar, but not identical, in the first
> song the hobbits hear. Frodo is later inspired (and surprises
> himself in the process) to seranade Goldberry, and the first line
> of Frodo's song is the one give above in the quiz.

'Fair lady Goldberry!' he said again. 'Now the joy that
was hidden in the songs we heard is made plain to me.

I even got the place right ... :-D

> I wonder if I can mark someone down for marking their own answers
> incorrectly? I guess it didn't do any harm, so maybe not... :-)

Please don't -- this way I can at least get half of the questions
right ;-)

Troels Forchhammer

unread,
Sep 16, 2005, 5:12:37 AM9/16/05
to
In message <news:wimWe.109411$G8.5...@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>

"Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> enriched us with:
>
> And yet more... :-)

And I just can't help myself -- I have to give it a try ;-)

> From anywhere in a song or verse. Give the person(s) who sung it,
> and to whom, and where, and explain what the singer is talking
> about. Sneakily, I've sometimes gone outside LotR...

<style='mode:heavy_sarcasm'>
Yeah, well -- it's not like it was really difficult when you just
stuck to LotR, was it ...
</style>

;-)

I am far from sure of any of these (even those where I dare venture a
guess).


> 1) "Or there maybe 'tis cloudless night"

That could be Sam's song in the tower of Cirith Ungol -- it does have
some of that melancholy that I associate with that song. If correct
he was only singing for himself in his misery and surrender after
failing to find Frodo (but of course his song brought the one
remaining Orc out to punish Frodo, and thus they were reunited).

> 2) "And now all those lands lie under the wave"

I first thought of Númenor, but on second thought think it's about
Beleriand. Not that it helps me all that much right now ...

Let's see:

The song about Beren and Lúthien takes place in Beleriand.
And Treebeard has a song about walking the various places of
Beleriand in the different seasons.

Actually I think Treebeard's song is the best guess. (To Pippin and
Merry, in Fangorn and about being an Ent).

> 3) "Through shadows to the edge of night"

Eärendil was a Mariner?

Well, it's the only one that I can recall that would fit it at all,
so I might as well make it my guess ;-)

It was of course recited/sung by Bilbo in Rivendell in the Hall of
Fire after the feast. Mostly to Elves, but to a few Hobbits and
Dwarves as well (plus a Maia -- I think the Man, Aragorn, was gone
again, but maybe not). He had set his audience a task -- to tell
which parts were by himself and which by Aragorn ('or to the
shepherd, perhaps' -- I love it <G>).

> 4) "I walk in the South"

'Oliphaunt am I'?

Sam's nursery riddle, given to Frodo and (mostly) Gollum in a small
hole near the Black Gate when Gollumn failed to understand his
question of whether there were Oliphaunts in the army of Southrons
that Gollum had just observed passing through the Black Gate.

> 5) "A wanderer escaped from night"

It reminds me of Gandalf ...

Frodo's elegy for Gandalf while in Lórien?

First to himself and later the faded fragments he remembered (and
which we get to hear) to Sam (who wanted to add something about
Gandalf's fireworks, 'the finest rockets ever seen', IIRC).

> 6) "Far over the misty mountains cold"

It could be something from the Hobbit ...

The song the Dwarves sang for Bilbo in Bag End the night before they
went off? In which case they would of course be singing about the
Lonely Mountain, its riches and their guardian.

> 7) "Though all to ruin fell the world"

Blank.

> 8) "He chanted a song of wizardry"

&#$@*!!!!

I /know/ that one ...

I distinctly remember the line, but I just can't remember where from
...

It /could/ be from Aragorn singing the tale of Tinúviel near
Weathertop (it would be the Sauron vs. Húan/Lúthien battle). In that
case it was to encourage the four Hobbits, removing their fears of
the Nazgûl for a while.

> 9) "In a cave in the hills he dwelt alone"

Mîm? ;-)

Or 'the Ballad of Bilbo Baggins' ... LOL

Sorry ... but, to be serious, I don't have a clue.

<ten minutes later>

The Troll!

Sam's song about the Troll, 'Troll sat alone ...' and, Tom, was it?,
who wanted the bone back ...

At the discovery of the three petrified trolls during the flight to
the Ford -- after a good laughter Sam sings this song which he has
himself made, to the rest of the party ('I learn a lot about Sam on
this trip, said Frodo' -- but didn't he also say that they needed a
song? I think that was what made Sam sing his song).

> 10) "A lord of wisdom throned he sat"

At least that isn't about Sam or his Troll ;-)

Again I imagine that I recall the line, but have no idea where it
might be from.


I'm drawing far too many complete blanks here for my comfort.
Obviously I need to start re-reading.

OK, I've been staring at these lines for too long now, so I'll just
post it ;-)

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

This isn't right. This isn't even wrong.
- Wolfgang Pauli, on a paper submitted by a physicist colleague
(Thus speaks the quantum physicist)

Derek Broughton

unread,
Sep 15, 2005, 9:20:36 PM9/15/05
to
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:

> Derek Broughton <ne...@pointerstop.ca> wrote:
>
> Troels and then Troels wrote:
>>>> The subject is, of course, the River-Woman's Daughter, which
>>>> places it squarely in the House of Tom Bombadil, but Frodo or Tom?
>>>> I'm inclined to suggest Frodo, 'now we know what the songs were
>>>> about' (paraphrasing).
>>>
>>> Place was right, wrong singer.
>>
>> Bombadil, then! :-)
>
> No. It _is_ Frodo!

Oooh! He tricked me!
--
derek

Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted

Troels Forchhammer

unread,
Sep 16, 2005, 11:28:23 AM9/16/05
to
In message <news:Xns96D37153...@131.228.6.99> Troels

Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> enriched us with:
>
> In message <news:wimWe.109411$G8.5...@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>
> "Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> enriched us
> with:
>>
>> And yet more... :-)
>
> And I just can't help myself -- I have to give it a try ;-)

OK, I'll do some self-marking this time as well ;-)

<snip

>> 1) "Or there maybe 'tis cloudless night"
>
> That could be Sam's song in the tower of Cirith Ungol

And it was.

>> 2) "And now all those lands lie under the wave"
>

[...]


> And Treebeard has a song about walking the various places of
> Beleriand in the different seasons.
>
> Actually I think Treebeard's song is the best guess. (To Pippin
> and Merry, in Fangorn and about being an Ent).

<... dancing ...>

I swear, it's pure luck.

>> 3) "Through shadows to the edge of night"
>
> Eärendil was a Mariner?

Not at all (but then, it couldn't continue that way -- the luck had to
run out). I like that song very much, but there was no way that I would
have guessed this. Kudos to Christopher for a devillish choice ;-)

>> 4) "I walk in the South"
>
> 'Oliphaunt am I'?

Sure ... ;-)

>> 5) "A wanderer escaped from night"
>
> It reminds me of Gandalf ...
>
> Frodo's elegy for Gandalf while in Lórien?

No. I suppose it doesn't help that I used the right answer wrongly in
another question ;-)

>> 6) "Far over the misty mountains cold"
>
> It could be something from the Hobbit ...
>
> The song the Dwarves sang for Bilbo in Bag End the night before
> they went off?

Yup.

>> 7) "Though all to ruin fell the world"
>
> Blank.

'Wicked! Tricksy! False!' ;-)

After finding it, I can't even say (in honesty, at least) that I
remembered that there was such a song at all.

I /definitely/ need to re-read my books -- according to internal
chronology, this time, I think.

(Troels was only joking. Always forgives, he does, yes, yes, even
Christopher's little trickes. Oh yes, nice Christopher, nice Troelssss)

>> 8) "He chanted a song of wizardry"
>

[...]

> It /could/ be from Aragorn singing the tale of Tinúviel near
> Weathertop (it would be the Sauron vs. Húan/Lúthien battle).

The general subject matter was right, as was the singer in the song,
but not the singer /of/ the song ... ;-)

>> 9) "In a cave in the hills he dwelt alone"
>

[...]


>
> Sam's song about the Troll, 'Troll sat alone ...' and, Tom, was
> it?, who wanted the bone back ...

Back on track again ;-)


>> 10) "A lord of wisdom throned he sat"

Only he didn't -- not on a proper throne.

Oh well, no worse than last time, but we seriously need to find your
weakness (Elvish declination, perhaps) and post a quiz or two on that
;-)

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought
which they avoid.
- Soren Kierkegaard

Dirk Thierbach

unread,
Sep 16, 2005, 12:39:57 PM9/16/05
to
Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@thisisfake.invalid> wrote:
> Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> enriched us with:
>> "Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> enriched us

>>> 7) "Though all to ruin fell the world"

>> Blank.

> 'Wicked! Tricksy! False!' ;-)

> After finding it, I can't even say (in honesty, at least) that I
> remembered that there was such a song at all.

I remember that one very well, for some reason, especially the
following rhyme "backward hurled", and I can even complete about half
of the remaining lines by heart. Must have impressed me back when I
read it for the first time.

- Dirk

Troels Forchhammer

unread,
Sep 17, 2005, 4:52:18 PM9/17/05
to
In message <news:20050916163957...@dthierbach.news.arcor.de>
Dirk Thierbach <dthie...@usenet.arcornews.de> enriched us with:
>

Farewell sweet earth and northern sky
[...]


Though all to ruin fell the world

and were dissolved and backward hurled
unmade into the old abyss,
[...]



> I remember that one very well, for some reason, especially the
> following rhyme "backward hurled", and I can even complete about half
> of the remaining lines by heart.

I'm impressed!

> Must have impressed me back when I read it for the first time.

I have a distinct suspicion that my eyes glazed over when I tried to
read it first.

I don't think the peotry has, in general, been translated very well in
the Danish version, and I carried my indifference for it with me when I
began to read the English versions, so it has only been in the last few
years that I've started to appreciate it for its beauty (complaining to
myself about what I have missed all these years, obviously <G>)

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

Still round the corner there may wait
A new road or a secret gate;
And though I oft have passed them by,
A day will come at last when I
Shall take the hidden paths that run
West of the Moon, East of the Sun.

Christopher Kreuzer

unread,
Sep 18, 2005, 7:20:25 PM9/18/05
to
Andrew F. Donnell <donn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Christopher Kreuzer wrote:

<snip>

>> 3) "Through shadows to the edge of night"
>

> Hmmm...in the PJ movies, it is sung by Pippin in ROTK, for the
> entertainment of Denethor. But I don't know where it really comes
> from.

Well remembered. I thought that this line being used in the films would
_help_ people remember stuff. Maybe not! :-)

Congrats on the correct answers (I snipped most of them).

>> 7) "Though all to ruin fell the world"
>> 8) "He chanted a song of wizardry"
>

> I want to say it was the merry passenger, the messenger, the mariner
> from "Errantry," to try to marry a pretty butterfly. I'm not quite
> sure though--I know there is something to the effect of wizardry
> there, but this could also fit any number of other places....

Haven't read Errantry.

Ooops!

Must read it now before a quiz is set about it... And I mustn't reveal
what else I haven't read by Tolkien!

Christopher Kreuzer

unread,
Sep 18, 2005, 7:26:42 PM9/18/05
to
Emma Pease <em...@kanpai.stanford.edu> wrote:

>> 3) "Through shadows to the edge of night"
> About Earendil not sure whom or where.

Hmm. This did trap several people.

It wasn't deliberate. Honest! :-)

>> 7) "Though all to ruin fell the world"
> Beren about Luthien when he despairs of his quest while in the
> dungeons of Sauron.

Actually sung after that. It is when he has left Luthien and ridden off
alone towards Angband. But Luthien, following him, hears his song, and
finds him. And they then journey on together.

I'm impressed you got the two Silmarillion songs.

I was rather amazed to only be able to find two songs/verses in 'The
Silmarillion'. Can anyone find any others?

>> 10) "A lord of wisdom throned he sat"
> not sure. It is likely about either Elrond or Thingol.

This was a bit sneaky as well. I've often wondered why Tolkien describes
Gandalf as sitting on a throne. I guess it is either a metaphorical
reference to him having lots of wisdom, or is was a desperate attempt by
Tolkien to find something to rhyme with hat...

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard

"This tale grew in the telling, until it became a history of the Great
War of the Ring..." - J.R.R. Tolkien (Foreward to LotR)

Christopher Kreuzer

unread,
Sep 18, 2005, 7:28:55 PM9/18/05
to
Alison <news....@ntlworld.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 15 Sep 2005 21:45:31 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer"
> <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>>
>>>> 10) ...through moor and waste we ride in haste...
>>>
>>> The words themselves draw a complete blank for me.
>>
>> I thought this one would be difficult!
>
> Isn't it one of the hobbits' walking songs?

Yup!

I might, if I have time, add the NEXT line for each example Belba and I
have posted in this thread. See if that helps make them more
recognisable.

Christopher Kreuzer

unread,
Sep 18, 2005, 7:37:27 PM9/18/05
to
Alison <news....@ntlworld.com> wrote:

>> 8) "He chanted a song of wizardry"
>

> Sounds like the metre of Bilbo's Earendil song at Rivendell.

Well, you answered 7 and only got this one wrong.

The metre is different in the Earendil song. It seems that the first
line of that song, like the one above, has 9 syllables (Earendil was a
mariner), but the subsequent lines in the Earendil song are 8 syllables
long.

Which leads me to conclude that, for poetry, Earendil has three
syllables, not four. And maybe it should never have four syllables. I
don't know.

Christopher Kreuzer

unread,
Sep 18, 2005, 7:41:02 PM9/18/05
to

Possibly the fact that it has been used often as a .sig file in these
newsgroups might also help. It was that .sig file that reminded me what
a good piece of verse that is. Also, thinking about that and the other
example of verse in 'The Silmarillion' led me to consider why these ones
appear and nothing else. But that is another post...

Christopher Kreuzer

unread,
Sep 18, 2005, 7:59:33 PM9/18/05
to
Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
> Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> enriched us with:
>> "Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> enriched us
>> with:
>>>
>>> And yet more... :-)
>>
>> And I just can't help myself -- I have to give it a try ;-)
>
> OK, I'll do some self-marking this time as well ;-)

That's a much more civilised way to do it. Plus I've been away for a few
days, so I was hoping this would happen! :-)

>>> 1) "Or there maybe 'tis cloudless night"
>>
>> That could be Sam's song in the tower of Cirith Ungol
>
> And it was.

More people got this than I thought they would.

>>> 2) "And now all those lands lie under the wave"
>>
> [...]
>> And Treebeard has a song about walking the various places of
>> Beleriand in the different seasons.
>>
>> Actually I think Treebeard's song is the best guess. (To Pippin
>> and Merry, in Fangorn and about being an Ent).
>
> <... dancing ...>
>
> I swear, it's pure luck.

It wasn't _that_ difficult! :-)

>>> 3) "Through shadows to the edge of night"
>>
>> Eärendil was a Mariner?
>
> Not at all (but then, it couldn't continue that way -- the luck had to
> run out). I like that song very much, but there was no way that I
> would have guessed this. Kudos to Christopher for a devillish choice
> ;-)

Sadly it was purely accidental. But yes, it did turn out to be a trap.

>>> 4) "I walk in the South"
>>
>> 'Oliphaunt am I'?
>
> Sure ... ;-)

I guess the short 5-syllable metre gave it away.
But again, more people got this than I expected.

>>> 5) "A wanderer escaped from night"
>>
>> It reminds me of Gandalf ...
>>
>> Frodo's elegy for Gandalf while in Lórien?
>
> No. I suppose it doesn't help that I used the right answer wrongly in
> another question ;-)

LOL!

This is one of my most memorised lines, to which I would always
automatically add the following line:

"to haven white he came at last"

Hence my idea that giving TWO lines for a fragment from a verse would
make it much more memorable. I'm going to do this for the ones I've
posted, which is not a fair test. I'd have to try and set up two control
groups somehow! And then give one group one-line fragments, and the
other one two-line fragments. Plus a series of control experiments to
verify the similarity of the two groups.

>>> 6) "Far over the misty mountains cold"
>>
>> It could be something from the Hobbit ...
>>
>> The song the Dwarves sang for Bilbo in Bag End the night before
>> they went off?
>
> Yup.

Probably one of the most memorable songs.

>>> 7) "Though all to ruin fell the world"
>>
>> Blank.
>
> 'Wicked! Tricksy! False!' ;-)
>
> After finding it, I can't even say (in honesty, at least) that I
> remembered that there was such a song at all.
>
> I /definitely/ need to re-read my books -- according to internal
> chronology, this time, I think.
>
> (Troels was only joking. Always forgives, he does, yes, yes, even
> Christopher's little trickes. Oh yes, nice Christopher, nice
> Troelssss)

LOL! No need to forgive! Just cook up a quiz full of little traps!

>>> 8) "He chanted a song of wizardry"
>>
> [...]
>
>> It /could/ be from Aragorn singing the tale of Tinúviel near
>> Weathertop (it would be the Sauron vs. Húan/Lúthien battle).
>
> The general subject matter was right, as was the singer in the song,
> but not the singer /of/ the song ... ;-)

Yes. Getting Sauron was almost worth a point. I thought people might go
for Gandalf in Frodo's lament for him.

>>> 9) "In a cave in the hills he dwelt alone"
>>
> [...]
>>
>> Sam's song about the Troll, 'Troll sat alone ...' and, Tom, was
>> it?, who wanted the bone back ...
>
> Back on track again ;-)

Did you work out your score?

>>> 10) "A lord of wisdom throned he sat"
>
> Only he didn't -- not on a proper throne.
>
> Oh well, no worse than last time, but we seriously need to find your
> weakness (Elvish declination, perhaps) and post a quiz or two on that
> ;-)

<